Abreu Haters

[Ben Whitman]

I know alot of Philly fans are less than thrilled with Bobby Abreu despite the fact he puts up tremendous numbers year after year. I know the Gold Glove was a joke, but let's hear your cases against Abreu.

-Ben
www.phillypurge.com

[Ubiquitous]

They haven't won a world series yet while he was on the team therefore it is his fault. In Philly it seems its always the best players fault for the lack of success of the team and franchise.

[ed hardiman]

www.*********.com

Why don't you tell us why you keep spamming our forum?

[Ben Whitman]

I'm not spamming bro, just trying to mix in.

-Ben

[Ben Whitman]

They haven't won a world series yet while he was on the team therefore it is his fault. In Philly it seems its always the best players fault for the lack of success of the team and franchise.

That makes a lot of sense. Trust me, I suffered for a long time with the Red Sox but it was usually management that got the blame. Ed Wade got a ton of heat down there, but now he's gone and Abreu is the scapegoat?

-Ben

[Ubiquitous]

Even when Wade was there Abreu recieved heat. Right around the time he recieved his big contract is when he went from underdog to lazy bum in a lot of fans eyes.

[Ben Whitman]

Even when Wade was there Abreu recieved heat. Right around the time he recieved his big contract is when he went from underdog to lazy bum in a lot of fans eyes.


So what's your personal opinion? Is it deserved at all? Is it that he's not clutch?

[Ubiquitous]

No I don't think Abreu is worthy of the scorn. If Abreu was your worst player or even just the worst player in the OF then you would have a very good to great team on your hands.

I don't know what clutch is but if I did I don't think I would say that Bobby Abreu is not clutch. He produces and he produces a lot. Is he a great defender? No. Is he a horrible defender? I don't know I haven't really watched him since I left Philly but in the first 6 years that I saw him I would say he wasn't even close to being a bad RF'er. He wasn't a great fielder or even a very good to good fielder but he wasn't terrible.

[Ben Whitman]

I don't know what clutch is but if I did I don't think I would say that Bobby .

I guess I would call clutch hitting with runners in scoring postion, hits that tie or give the lead, numbers from the 7th inning on. For instance, I saw a breakdown of A-Rod's numbers from the first couple seasons in NY and alot of his production was 5th inning or earlier, and he's stunk in the post season, so I would say A-Rod, while great, is not clutch.

[Ubiquitous]

Why is something that happens before the 5th not clutch? Performing or failing in the early innings is what decides what will and will not be clutch in the later innings. If my team scores 8 runs in the firs 2 innings while only allowing 2 runs through 7 innings then most of the time nothing my team does in the later innings is going to be clutch. So isn't hitting a grand slam in the first inning to go up 4-0 hugely important? If instead I GIDP doesn't that cost my team a ton of runs and a huge chance at winning the game?

Secondly we are dealing with a sample size issue here. ARod has played in about 310 games over the last two seasons. About 1400 PA. Now I'm willing to bet that out of those 1400 PA about 600 at most came after the 5th with it probably being around 500. 500 PA over two seasons against many different teams and pitchers in differing weather and parks makes just too small of a sample size to be able to say one way or the other. Plus on top of that we have no real baseline. How did other players perform after the 5th?

[Ben Whitman]

[QUOTE=Ubiquitous]Why is something that happens before the 5th not clutch? Performing or failing in the early innings is what decides what will and will not be clutch in the later innings. If my team scores 8 runs in the firs 2 innings while only allowing 2 runs through 7 innings then most of the time nothing my team does in the later innings is going to be clutch. So isn't hitting a grand slam in the first inning to go up 4-0 hugely important? QUOTE]

Your points are valid, but I rather have a guy coming to the plate who does well in the 7th or later when my team is trailing. It's not to say that runs scored early in games aren't important, obviously they count just like any others, but when the pressure is on, and you're trailing in the late innings with only 3 outs to go and you got a guy who comes through time after time (David Ortiz) he's "clutch."

[Ubiquitous]

But again there just isn't enough of a sample size to say one way or another. With so few PA's one or two outliers can change the appearance of everything.

[Ben Whitman]

Yeah, I hear ya, and I'm not up on SABRmetrics as much as I probably should be, but I still believe in the theory of a "clutch hitter."

[moebarguy]

I'd say that a hitter who is "clutch" technically should have the highest OBP. If the game's on the line, you have to play percentages. If a guy has a high OBP, there's more of a chance of him getting on some how, and even knocking in a run.

[Ben Whitman]

I'd say that a hitter who is "clutch" technically should have the highest OBP. .

That makes sense to a certain point, but what if his OBP is drastically lower in key situations?

[moebarguy]

I guess then OBP with men on base...

[Ben Whitman]

I guess then OBP with men on base...

Which brings us back (sorta) to what I originally said. Performance with RISP. The main argument here was my theory that performance in later innings, 7th and beyond, is "clutch" where before the 7th is less "clutch."

Ben

[Androctus]

You should read the "Bobby Abreu... Has Won a Gold Glove Award" from start to finish before you start talking about Abreu being clutch.

If you can stand the torture, that is.

[sadiemae]

[QUOTE=Ubiquitous]Why is something that happens before the 5th not clutch? Performing or failing in the early innings is what decides what will and will not be clutch in the later innings. If my team scores 8 runs in the firs 2 innings while only allowing 2 runs through 7 innings then most of the time nothing my team does in the later innings is going to be clutch. So isn't hitting a grand slam in the first inning to go up 4-0 hugely important? QUOTE]

Your points are valid, but I rather have a guy coming to the plate who does well in the 7th or later when my team is trailing. It's not to say that runs scored early in games aren't important, obviously they count just like any others, but when the pressure is on, and you're trailing in the late innings with only 3 outs to go and you got a guy who comes through time after time (David Ortiz) he's "clutch."

If a team puts itself in the position where it has to win games with only three outs left, it's the fault of the team, not the players who fail in that situation.
How many of the Red Sox wins, or any other good team last season, happened when they were ahead going into the eighth or ninth as opposed to the opposite?
Teams winning pennants because they pull out games in the ninth because they have clutch hitters is a fairy tale.

[akorn22]

Actually I hate abreu cause he's lazy as hell. He never runs his hardest. It never looks like he puts forth an effort while in the game

[Ubiquitous]

Yeah he's real lazy alright, just like Joe Dimaggio was lazy right?

[Androctus]

OMG I can't beleive you just drew that comparison.

[Ben Whitman]

OMG I can't beleive you just drew that comparison.

I don't think it's about comparing numbers or success, just they both had a rep for being perceived as lazy.

[Ben Whitman]

[QUOTE=Ben Whitman]

If a team puts itself in the position where it has to win games with only three outs left, it's the fault of the team, not the players who fail in that situation.
....Teams winning pennants because they pull out games in the ninth because they have clutch hitters is a fairy tale.

That's true, but every single team will be heading to the 7th losing or tied in alot of games every single season. The situation exists for everyone regardless of the reason.

Did you watch the 2004 ALCS? Some fairy tales are true.

[Androctus]

I don't think it's about comparing numbers or success, just they both had a rep for being perceived as lazy.I've heard Dimaggio's defensive aptitude as described by a great many words. I don't ever recall "lazy" as being one of them.

[Ben Whitman]

I've heard Dimaggio's defensive aptitude as described by a great many words. I don't ever recall "lazy" as being one of them.

I'm not saying one way or the other, I never saw him play, but this is a common perception.

<<<DiMaggio joined the New York Yankees in 1936 and stayed with them until his retirement in 1951. Regarded as one of the greatest of all centre fielders, he played outfield with such languid grace that some inattentive fans thought he was lazy.>>>
from
http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9362757/Joe-DiMaggio

[Androctus]

That is just typesetter's excessive verbage to explain he made it look easy. Joe D was a world-class centerfielder.

I can assure you since I am not an inattentive fan, that Abreu posseses no languid grace that make me "perceive" him as being lazy. Matter of fact I really don't think he's lazy. He's cautious, makes poor decisions and overall just lacks polish as a fielder.

[Ben Whitman]

That is just typesetter's excessive verbage to explain he made it look easy. Joe D was a world-class centerfielder.

I can assure you since I am not an inattentive fan, that Abreu posseses no languid grace that make me "perceive" him as being lazy. Matter of fact I really don't think he's lazy. He's cautious, makes poor decisions and overall just lacks polish as a fielder.

I won't argue with you, but it's a common perception that SOME fans of the day classified Joe D as "lazy." I'm not saying he was lazy and I'm not comparing him to Abreu.

[Imapotato]

Abreu could be much more a better player then he is...he is lackadasial, shows no urgency

He is the guy that shows up and 'does his job'
He has no sense of the futility of this Franchise, and if he did, he wouldn't care

He gets paid to play a game and that's his mentality

While guys like Schilling and Jeter want to win, want a ring...Abreu's efforts has shown that really isn't his motivation

[Ubiquitous]

Bobby Abreu's biggest fault is that he is a quiet soft spoken spanish speaking player that doesn't act like Sammy Sosa.

What does Curt Schilling do to prove that he wants to win that Bobby doesn't? What Curt does is self promote thats the difference between Abreu and Schilling. Schilling will tell you why he is doing something while Abreu just goes out and plays. That doesn't mean Schillings wants it more or that Abreu doesn't. Unless you are a clse acquaintenance Bobby's you have no real idea what drives him or if he percieves it a merely a job and does not care if he wins or loses. As for Jeter well he has had to battle his rumors and whispers of less then stellar dedication to the team.

The biggest difference between Derek Jeter and Curt to bobby is that Curt and Jeter were fortunate enough to be on teams that won. So obviously they had the will to win, nevermind that if Jeter for the D-Rays and Curt for the pirates their names wouldn't even be mentioned nor close to the superstars they are now.

you don't get to be one of the best ballplayers of the game and be at that going on 10 years now by being lazy or lackadaisical. It just doesn't happen. He's not a great defensive player, okay but thats focusing on a fault and ignoring the huge contributions he makes with his strengths

[cubbieuk]

philly fans drove a great 3rd baseman out of town...abreu will be next...tough town to play in but success comes down to pitching and im afraid the phils dont have much so it`ll be another mediocre year...great ballpark though, i love cbp

[Androctus]

philly fans drove a great 3rd baseman out of town..No, I think it was the ownership that did that, the fans were just icing on the cake...

[LP fan]

not many in the history of this franchise have put up better numbers in position 9 - the Abreu bashing isn't right....

[plask_stirlac]

"Huh, he's been pretty damn good these past 8-9 seasons." should be a given, to me, among Philly fans and baseball fans in general who follow the league with some interest. And that's impressive, it isn't just "check out Brad Wilkerson's last two seasons" in 2004.

Now, where we go from here can differ. He doesn't really have a flaw in actually producing. AVG/OBP/SLG, HR and RBI, R, doubles and steals, walks, even few GIDPs. It's remarkable. He had 4 errors and average range last year. The last year he didn't hit at least .300 (etc.) with RISP was 2001, this year he's hitting .375. You could actually get a sample size, perhaps, and he'd be hitting like Barry Bonds '02. And he's a good person, injury-free, no scandals or incidents.

But people want the best. He, like the Phillies, might provide a solid and entertaining effort but not quite make the playoffs. He isn't as good as Pujols. Ortiz is a better batter in the box. Ichiro can be a more perfect RF (suited for their parks). He hasn't been in the playoffs. He got cold when the Phillies got hot (though imagine Thome, Abreu, Utley, and Howard not getting to produce consistently early in the season, add some more losses).

But he only had 10.6 percent of the Phillies' ABs (can't find PAs) and, like I said, 4 errors for .986 fielding with a great arm and fair range.

[VIBaseball]

Twice in two nights now I've seen Abreu flinch and come up short well before the wall on catchable drives. The Mets commentators are all over it now, saying "He's no Aaron Rowand."

[W_Marone]

The thing I have against Abreu is that he's lazy, on offense and defense. Just straight lazy.

[Ubiquitous]

Yeah he is, if he wasn't so lazy he would hit 60 homers a year and catch all the balls in the outfield by himself and throw runners out on first from the wall. What a lazy *******.

If he is lazy and can do what he does on the diamond for as long as he has done it then what are we?

[W_Marone]

I cant tell if that was sarcasm or not, and If it was, then yeah he definantly would not ever hit sixty home runs ever in a season. In the outfield Bobby never seems to go hard after a ball, always trotting, and it seems sometimes at the plate he also looks bored, but he can hit, no doubt about that, I would like to see him try batting lead off for a change since rollins is struggling, but Bobby says that real men bring in RBI not bat lead off so he wont be batting number one for anytime to come.

[W_Marone]

philly fans drove a great 3rd baseman out of town...

It was the combination of the front office and Larry Bowa that drove him out of town, and Dallas Green was riding him too, I think Dallas at that time was some front office something or other......but now scottie's happy in St. Louis.

[Yankwood]

[QUOTE=Ubiquitous]Why is something that happens before the 5th not clutch? Performing or failing in the early innings is what decides what will and will not be clutch in the later innings. If my team scores 8 runs in the firs 2 innings while only allowing 2 runs through 7 innings then most of the time nothing my team does in the later innings is going to be clutch. So isn't hitting a grand slam in the first inning to go up 4-0 hugely important? If instead I GIDP doesn't that cost my team a ton of runs and a huge chance at winning the game? I know what you are saying, but most fans (myself included) like to think that their "stars" can pull a game out of the fire in the 8th or 9th innings with the game on the line. This is what endeared Ortiz to Red Sox fans and has drawn the scorn of Yankee fans towards Arod. A run is a run is a run, granted, but sometimes it comes down to,"Who would you want up with the game on the line?". You like to think that late in a game, losing, you have a chance to win. With ARod up, most Yankee fans just keep getting disappoined.

[graybeard]

Abreu Haters??? There are certainly many posts from people who don't like Abreu.

Unfortunately it's impossible to guess at baseball acuem of the posters or the percentage of fans who's opinion they represent. My guess is that everything goes back to expectations. There are those who would express dissatisfation with Babe Ruth's play, if he was playing for the Phillies today and had a contract like Bobby's. While there are likely some thoughful fans who find fault with Abreu, my guess is that the majority of the more vocal could be classified as dim bulbs.

Graybeard

[Imapotato]

No one HATES Abreu

Disapointment is a better term

He is a great guy...personable, does things right with his money etc.

But on the baseball field...he could be so much better, he reminds me of the guy in those cliche baseball movies like Mr. 3000, that have all this talent but high priorities on everything but baseball...what the Phillies need is Bernie Mac :) to get him to realize his potential

[sadiemae]

There goes that rotten Abreu again? Second in the NL in on base%, fifth in runs scored, seventh in RBI. Man he really rots.

[W_Marone]

I dont have anything against Bobby at the plate, its in the field where I have a problem.

[sadiemae]

So he's not Roberto Clemente, so what? He's producing far more runs as a batter than he's giving up as a fielder. Nobody's perfect.
Howard's no Keith Henandez, why don't you pick on him.

[W_Marone]

I do critize Ryan Howard on Defense as well, there's no doubt Bobby is a great player at the plate, but I think he could try sometime on defense, if it looked like he tried then I would be 100 percent happy with him, but right now he doesnt so Im only 80% happy.

And why should a player be excused from being good on defense because he can put runs on the board? The answer...he shouldnt.

[LP fan]

He's smooth, and smart enough to not run into fences , and quite possibly, one of the best ever outfielders in phillies history

[W_Marone]

So are you saying Aaron Rowand is not smart enough not to make that catch that broke his nose that saved the game for the Phillies?

[Ubiquitous]

Rowand crashed into the fence on May 11th. He didn't bat again until May 27th. He missed 13 games to help one game. The Phillies I believe went 5-8 in those 13 games. So in the long run what would have been better? Rowand pull up short and the Phillies possibly lose one game but have Rowand for the next 13 games or have Rowand crash into the wall make the catch help the Phillies possibly win a game but lose him for the next 13?


Rowand made that catch in the first inning, in a game that was delayed by rain and had a very good chance of being called before it became official. Other games in the area had already been called.

[W_Marone]

Well I guess we will have to see if that one game that rowand did save ends up helping or hurting the Phillies making the playoffs..... no ones too smooth or cool not to give 100 percent on defense, unless theyre hurt, which Bobby is not.

[Ubiquitous]

How are we going to see if it helped or hurt later on?

[W_Marone]

If it ends up the Phillies make the playoffs by one game or not, then we can say that Rowands catch meant more than just one game, it meant the playoffs. Now back to Bobby, It would seem that whoever posts on here uses his hitting when saying he is a good player, which I dont mind. He can hit, he gets on base, scores runs, and drives them in just as well. The only problem Philly fans like me should have is his DEFENSE and the well being of the team. Bobby once said he wont hit leadoff, where I believe he would be incredibly succesful, becuase "real men" drive in runs. Whats that garbage? Youre not above anyone on the team Bobby, we love you but youre just as important as anyone else who goes out there and gives 100 percent in the field and at the plate where bobby gives 100 percent at the plate and about 50-65 percent on the field. There's no question Bobby can hit, so please I've heard enough about how he can hit, I watch almost every Phillies game I can, I KNOW! And as I said before no one is above playing defense on the field becuase they are amazing on offense, and no one is above anyone on the team. And the excuse that he's too smooth or whatever that one guy said, get real. Thats it, im done with Bobby Abreu for now. Ubiquios, do you agree? Bobby is lackluster on defense? Just answer me that, I dont want a paragraph about well some other guy does this or etc. Yes or No does he play good defense and does he give 100 percent on Defense?

[LP fan]

I think he is smart enough to know the plays that he can get to, and the ones that he'll let land and keep from turning into doubles or triples....no, he probably doesn't make every play possible, but he does make 90% of them, can throw out runners, and can be penciled into the lineup everyday...so far this year he is batting close to .300, has driven in over 40 runs, score about as many... so he isn't Larry Walker in right field...he can't be everything, but he is sure one damn fine player...

[Ubiquitous]

If it ends up the Phillies make the playoffs by one game or not, then we can say that Rowands catch meant more than just one game, it meant the playoffs.
No it doesn't, because you would still have to figure out what would have happened in the game he did make the catch in if he didn't make it and then we also have to figure out what it meant to the Phillies to have not had him play for 13 games. Again him not making that catch does not mean that the Phillies would have automatically lost that game. Nor does winning that game and winning by one game the division or wild card mean that that one play got them in. If anything by missing the 13 games that could have cost the Phillies some wins and make them closer to the pack then if he hadn't crashed into the fence.


Now back to Bobby, It would seem that whoever posts on here uses his hitting when saying he is a good player, which I dont mind. He can hit, he gets on base, scores runs, and drives them in just as well. The only problem Philly fans like me should have is his DEFENSE and the well being of the team. Bobby once said he wont hit leadoff, where I believe he would be incredibly succesful, becuase "real men" drive in runs. Whats that garbage? Youre not above anyone on the team Bobby, we love you but youre just as important as anyone else who goes out there and gives 100 percent in the field and at the plate where bobby gives 100 percent at the plate and about 50-65 percent on the field. There's no question Bobby can hit, so please I've heard enough about how he can hit, I watch almost every Phillies game I can, I KNOW! And as I said before no one is above playing defense on the field becuase they are amazing on offense, and no one is above anyone on the team. And the excuse that he's too smooth or whatever that one guy said, get real. Thats it, im done with Bobby Abreu for now. Ubiquios, do you agree? Bobby is lackluster on defense? Just answer me that, I dont want a paragraph about well some other guy does this or etc. Yes or No does he play good defense and does he give 100 percent on Defense?

Bobby Abreu is not a bad defender, he is not a lazy defender. Certain Philly fans jump on him well because that is what Philly fans do. They jump on anybody that doesn't act like Larry Bowa. That is the type of player that a lot Philly people like. They like little white guys with fire in their eyes and coming out their mouth running around at 100 mph. Anything less then that or if it doesn't look like that they jump on.

[W_Marone]

Not lazy? Good on Defense, I dont think Bobby qualifies as good on defense, watch Bobby on a daily basis and then tell me he's good or not lazy on defense. Try to tell me he's anywhere close to a tori hunter, or Aaron Rowand, Jim Edmonds, Ichiro, or even a guy like Trot Nixon.

[W_Marone]

Yeah he's real lazy alright, just like Joe Dimaggio was lazy right?


Another think, whats your reasoning against why he's not lazy, I've never seen you say..."I personally have seen him hustle his hardest in the field or on the basepaths." Never, if youre looking at stats, thats not gonna tell you squat about his hustle, wheter he runs hard in the outfield or on the basepaths, where or not he has the heart to make a diving catch and putting his body on the line for one out. Stats tell you he is good at the plate which no doubt he is. But when it comes to defense you have to watch more than two games with him to realize how lazy and how he loafs around in rightfield.

have a nice day

[Ubiquitous]

Not lazy? Good on Defense, I dont think Bobby qualifies as good on defense, watch Bobby on a daily basis and then tell me he's good or not lazy on defense. Try to tell me he's anywhere close to a tori hunter, or Aaron Rowand, Jim Edmonds, Ichiro, or even a guy like Trot Nixon.


Not being one of the best fielders in the game doesn't mean he is bad or lazy.

Just because a hitter doesn't compare to Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Mickey Mantle doesn't mean they are a bad hitter.

I have watched Bobby Abreu play lot and lots of time from about 1999 to 2003 I lived in Philadelphia and had the 13 game season ticket package and went to other games as well, all of them on the RF foul line area of the 200 level. I probably saw him play in person at least 75 times over 5 years, and of course I watched him on TV hundreds and hundreds of times more. I never once thought he was lazy or bad fielder. The only black mark I can think of was that he would never throw the warm up ball into the stands despite my repeated attempts to get him to do it.

Also most of the negative talk on Bobby Abreu started in 2003, after he got the huge contract. Some of the fans I think because of the contract started blaming Bobby for everything that goes wrong in the Phillies. Bobby had a down year and with all those millions Phladelphia Radio and some fans jumped on Bobby and ever since then they have been riding him for every little thing real or imagined.

[W_Marone]

I didnt get on Bobby becuase of his huge contract cuase really I could care less, and I'm not on him for his offense, but, a point that will be argued by me and you till probably forever is if he is lazy or not, or doesnt play hard on defense. I'm just gonna leave it at you have your views and I have my views, all this Bobby talk has made me want to talk about someone else.....Mike Leiberthal, Unibiquious do you agree with me that Lieberthal cant play "defense"?

[Ubiquitous]

Mike Lieberthal's problem is that he can't stay healthy which has eroded his defensive skills. He is 34 years old and has caught close to 10,000 innings. When he was healthy and younger he was not bad behind the plate.

[W_Marone]

No doubt about that, won a gold glove in 99. I had a good question, but no wait, ubiquitous, who do you think they phils could go out and get to improve the pen as either an all time pen guy or a pen/spot starter, I'm just not comfortable with Ryan Franklin at all. And hearing they may start him sometime is even scarier being he is a career below 500 pitcher.

[Ubiquitous]

Sorry I've moved away from Philly and haven't paid much attention to them lately

[W_Marone]

Oh well back to Bobby then, you havent seen him latley in the field have you hahaha.... just kidding although he was unable to pick a ball up the other night, it was quite comical.