The Hall of Corrections, Election #2

[Freakshow]

It’s a crime that certain players are being left out of the Hall of Fame. This is the second in a series of polls to correct the situation. So far, we've decided that Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven and Dick Allen have earned a place in the HOF.

Recently, we completed the Hall of Mistakes, identifying the bottom 15% among the players in the HOF. We finished by electing Rollie Fingers and Tony Lazzeri as the 33rd and 34th worst players enshrined. Here’s the entire roster of Mistakes:

C (2) - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
1B (2) - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
2B (4) - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri
3B (3) - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
SS (4) - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
LF (2) - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
CF (2) - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
RF (5) - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
P (10) - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers

Now, we want to figure out who should replace them. For this election, players must be currently eligible for the Cooperstown Hall, except we will ignore the ten year rule. Also, players from the National Association (1871-75) and previous to this should be considered. Negro leaguers and other players from Black baseball in North America are also eligible, of course. Players retired after 2000 (Ripken, Gwynn, Raines, Henderson, etc.) are not eligible. Players on MLB’s banned list (Rose, J. Jackson, Cicotte, Chase, etc.) and players whose entire career was in Japan (Kaneda, Oh, Nomura, etc.) are also ineligible.

We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, if you think Curt Flood or Lefty O’Doul’s off-the-field influences were enough to boost his playing career, vote for him. But only if you think his playing career comprises the majority of his overall contribution; this is a player’s election.

Here are some suggestions as to whom to focus on. Players in bold are already chosen as Corrections (* marks players in BBFHOF):

The top 16 also-rans in BBWAA balloting for 2006
Jim Rice
Rich Gossage*
Andre Dawson*
Bert Blyleven*
Lee Smith
Jack Morris
Tommy John
Steve Garvey
Alan Trammell*
Dave Parker
Dave Concepcion
Don Mattingly
Orel Hershiser
Dale Murphy
Albert Belle
Will Clark

The 2005 Veterans Committee Balloting, 25 Players
Ron Santo*
Gil Hodges
Tony Oliva
Jim Kaat
Joe Torre*
Maury Wills
Vada Pinson
Luis Tiant
Roger Maris
Marty Marion
Ken Boyer
Joe Gordon
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso*
Dick Allen*
Curt Flood
Wes Ferrell
Mickey Lolich
Don Newcombe
Sparky Lyle
Elston Howard
Bobby Bonds
Rocky Colavito
Thurman Munson
Smoky Joe Wood

18 Pre-1920 Stars Elected to the Hall of Merit (arranged chronologically)
Dickey Pearce
Joe Start
Lip Pike
Ross Barnes
Cal McVey
Ezra Sutton
Deacon White*
Paul Hines*
Charlie Bennett
Hardy Richardson
George Gore
Harry Stovey
Jack Glasscock
Bob Caruthers
Bill Dahlen*
Jimmy Sheckard
Sherry Magee*
Heinie Groh

4 More Pre-1920 MLB Players, in the All-Timeline HOF but not in the Coop
Pete Browning
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
George Van Haltren

5 “Top” Negro Leagues Candidates
John Beckwith
Grant Johnson
Dick Lundy
Dobie Moore
Dick Redding

16 Victims of the 5% Rule, Not Yet Eligible for VC Election
Darrell Evans
Dwight Evans
Bobby Grich
Ron Guidry
Keith Hernandez
Fred Lynn
Graig Nettles
Al Oliver
Lance Parrish
Dan Quisenberry
Willie Randolph
Ted Simmons*
Ken Singleton
Rusty Staub
Dave Stieb
Lou Whitaker

19 Older Candidates Not Currently On VC Ballot
Tommy Bridges
Bert Campaneris
Norm Cash
Cupid Childs
Gavy Cravath
Larry Doyle
Bob Elliott
Bill Freehan
Stan Hack
Bob Johnson
Charlie Keller
Tommy Leach
Al Rosen
Wally Schang
Reggie Smith
Vern Stephens
Mickey Vernon
Bucky Walters
Jimmy Wynn

Let’s show the 103 players listed above by position:

P (22) – Blyleven, Bridges, Caruthers, Ferrell, Gossage, Guidry, Hershiser, John, Kaat, Lolich, Lyle, Mays, Morris, Mullane, Newcombe, Quisenberry, Redding, L. Smith, Stieb, Tiant, Walters, J. Wood.
C (10) – Bennett, Freehan, Howard, McVey, Munson, Parrish, Schang, Simmons, Torre, D. White.
1B (9) – Allen, Cash, W. Clark, Garvey, Hernandez, Hodges, Mattingly, Start, Vernon.
2B (8) – Barnes, Childs, L. Doyle, Gordon, Grich, Randolph, H. Richardson, Whitaker.
3B (11) – Beckwith, K. Boyer, Elliott, Evans, Groh, Hack, Leach, Nettles, Rosen, Santo, Sutton.
SS (12) – Campaneris, Concepcion, Dahlen, Glasscock, G. Johnson, Lundy, Marion, D. Moore, Pearce, Stephens, Trammell, Wills.
LF (9) – Belle, Browning, B. Johnson, Keller, Magee, Minoso, Rice, Sheckard, Stovey.
CF (11) – Dawson, Flood, Gore, Hines, Lynn, Murphy, Oliver, Pike, Pinson, Van Haltren, Wynn.
RF(11) – Bonds, Colavito, Cravath, Evans, Maris, Oliva, Parker, Ryan, Singleton, R. Smith, Staub.

Candidates are not restricted to these 103 of course. Eight players from the 64-Player VC Tournament that I ran a couple years back are not listed above: Urban Shocker, Tommy Bond, Bobby Veach, Lon Warneke, Herman Long, Jack Fournier, Allie Reynolds, and Lave Cross. Some others who were close to the list were Wally Berger, Sal Bando, Frank Howard, Buddy Myer, Jim McCormick, Jack Quinn and Billy Pierce.

Voters should list their top ten selections in order. We'll elect three players each election for awhile. Points will be assigned this way: 12-11-10-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.

With Santo, Blyleven and Allen no longer eligible, here is my list of the next ten most deserving candidates for the Hall:

1. Minnie Minoso
2. Bill Dahlen
3. Bobby Grich
4. Joe Torre
5. Paul Hines
6. Rich Gossage
7. Alan Trammell
8. Deacon White
9. Sherry Magee
10.Lou Whitaker

[RuthMayBond]

Let’s show the 100 players listed above by position:

P (21) – Lolich, Morris, Newcombe.
C (10) – Bennett, Howard, McVey.
1B (9) – Start.
2B (8) – H. Richardson.
SS (11) – Marion, Pearce :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: , Wills.
CF (11) – Hines, Pike.
RF(10) – Maris.Where did we get these from?

[Freakshow]

Where did we get these from?
They all come from other group's lists of leading candidates, printed in my introductory post.

[RuthMayBond]

They all come from other group's lists of leading candidates, printed in my introductory post.Too late for other possible suggestions?

[Freakshow]

Too late for other possible suggestions?
Not at all. Who did you want to include?

[KCGHOST]

1. Pete Browning
2. Minnie Minoso
3. Tommy Bridges
4. Rich Gossage
5. Allan Trammell
6. Lou Whitaker
7. Mike Tiernan
8. George Gore
9. Hardy Richardson
10. Stan Hack

[RuthMayBond]

Let’s show the 100 players listed above by position:I was kinda hoping for more like this. I won't mess with the Negro League selections since I'm not knowledgable enough

P (21) – Blyleven, Bridges, Caruthers, Ferrell, Gossage, Guidry, Hershiser, John, Kaat, DLeonard, (Lyle's gotta go too), Mays, JMcCormick, Mullane, Quisenberry, Redding, RReuschel, L. Smith, Stieb, Tiant, Walters, J. Wood.
C (10) – Freehan, Munson, Parrish, DPorter, Schang, Simmons, Sundberg, Tenace, Torre, D. White.
1B (9) – Allen, Cash, W. Clark, Garvey, Hernandez, Hodges, Mattingly, Powell, Vernon.
2B (8) – Barnes, Childs, L. Doyle, Gordon, Grich, Randolph, (maybe no replacement for H. Richardson), Whitaker.
3B (11) – Beckwith, K. Boyer, Elliott, Evans, Groh, Hack, Leach, Nettles, Rosen, Santo, Sutton.
SS (11) – Bartell, Concepcion, Dahlen, Glasscock, G. Johnson, HLong, Lundy, D. Moore, Campaneris, Stephens, Trammell.
LF (9) – Belle, Browning, B. Johnson, Keller, Magee, Minoso, Rice, Sheckard, Stovey.
CF (11) – Butler, (WDavis or Cedeno), Dawson, Flood, Gore, Lynn, Murphy, Oliver, Pinson, Van Haltren, Wynn.
RF(10) – Bonds, JClark, Colavito, Evans, Oliva, Parker, Ryan, Singleton, R. Smith, Staub.

Some others who were close to the list were (instead of Buddy Myer) Del Pratt. What say ya?

[Freakshow]

RMB--
It would help if you could highlight your additions. Also, remember players active after 2000 are not yet eligible.

[Freakshow]

I won't mess with the Negro League selections since I'm not knowledgable enough

Miss Manners gently suggests you follow the same policy for 19th century players.

[RuthMayBond]

Also, remember players active after 2000 are not yet eligible.Who did I goof with? :eek:

[RuthMayBond]

Miss Manners gently suggests you follow the same policy for 19th century players.Is Miss Manners implying that when it comes to 19th century players, I actually AM as dumb as I look? :D (it wouldn't take much to convince me to add Silver King). I'm sorry, you have to defend the pathetic nomination of Dickey Pearce.
Career slugging, .276.
Number of full seasons, five.
Number of 30+ RBI years, zero.
OPS+, 78.
Career RBI, 137.
Years after 1877, zero.
Sneaking him in the Hall, priceless :D
Dang, I left Hodges on ;)

[Freakshow]

Who did I goof with? :eek:
I noticed Grace, Fernandez and Franco.

[Freakshow]

Dickey Pearce.
Career slugging, .276.
Number of full seasons, five.
Number of 30+ RBI years, zero.
OPS+, 78.
Career RBI, 137.
Years after 1877, zero.

If that's your sum of knowledge of Pearce, naturally you could not fathom him as a viable HOF candidate.

For now, here's his plaque at the Hall of Merit:

Dickey Pearce - 1931 - SS/C
Brooklyn Atlantics (1856-70); Brooklyn Excelsiors (1866); New York (NA) 1871-72; Brooklyn Atlantics (NA) 1873-74; St. Louis Brown Stockings (NA) 1875; St. Louis (NL) 1876-77
Cap: Brooklyn Atlantics
Almost overnight, tiny Dickey Pearce transformed the position of shortstop from one of little defensive contribution to one with a great responsibility for preventing runs. He expanded the area a shortstop covered, developed defensive positioning based on where the batter would normally hit the ball, refined defensive strategy at the position and showed how a shortstop should throw the ball accurately to first. Besides being a defensive marvel, the speedy Pearce was also an above-average batsman who is credited with inventing the bunt and fair-foul hit. In the few All-Star games of that age, he was named the starting shortstop in 1858 and the starting catcher (which he performed excellently and played many times during his long career) in 1861. Arguably the greatest player of his era at his prime, he was one of the game’s first professionals. Sparkplug of the great champion Atlantic teams of 1864 and 1865. NA leader for Games (1871).

[RuthMayBond]

For now, here's his plaque at the Hall of Merit:Let's take a closer look at the plaque

Dickey Pearce - 1931 - SS/C
Brooklyn Atlantics (1856[/QUOTE]I bet they had awesome leagues then

<Almost overnight, tiny Dickey Pearce transformed the position of shortstop from one of little defensive contribution to one with a great responsibility for preventing runs.>

I'd like some evidence for this

<showed how a shortstop should throw the ball accurately to first.>

A little elucidation on this?

<the speedy Pearce was also an above-average batsman>

Based upon exactly what?

<who is credited with inventing the bunt>

<Arguably the greatest player of his era at his prime>

I hear Ross Barnes knocking :D

[Freakshow]

RMB--

Your additions to the candidates list are all solid players, certainly. Though I could be wrong, I don't think any of them is a serious candidate for election by our group.

I also think you would do well to reconsider Paul Hines. If you need any info on him, just ask the voters at the BBFHOF, who elected him in December.

[Brad Harris]

1. Alan Trammell
2. Minnie Minoso
3. Goose Gossage
4. Ken Boyer
5. Sherry Magee
6. Bobby Grich
7. Bill Dahlen
8. Paul Hines
9. Joe Gordon
10. Deacon White

[Freakshow]

<Arguably the greatest player of his era at his prime>

I hear Ross Barnes knocking :D
Pearce was 14 years older than Barnes, so they are not quite of the same era.

Here is Pearce's writeup from BBLibrary:

One of baseball's most famous early players, Pearce broke in with the Brooklyn Atlantics in 1856. He and James Creighton were probably the two earliest players to be paid. A brilliant fielder, Pearce is generally given credit for molding the shortstop's play into its present form. A good hitter, and fast, he was legendary for introducing and mastering his "tricky hit," known today as the bunt. For much of his career, the rules permitted it to roll foul and still be a hit.

Pearce played professionally for 22 years, spanning the generation from the game's beginnings to the National League. The St. Louis Times, June 30, 1868, applauded Pearce, summarizing his contributions : "Pearce has been noted as a superior shortstop for ten years and to-day has no equal in the base ball field. He bats with great judgment and safety..." Following his playing days, he umpired into the mid-1880s.

[RuthMayBond]

RMB--

Your additions to the candidates list are all solid players, certainly. Though I could be wrong, I don't think any of them is a serious candidate for election by our group.I just don't know why they would be any LESS so than the ones I replaced

<I also think you would do well to reconsider Paul Hines. If you need any info on him, just ask the voters at the BBFHOF, who elected him in December.>

He's probably next on that list, and I understand most everyobdy is a rate guy, but a kinda short career in a not-so-great league

[Freakshow]

I just don't know why they would be any LESS so than the ones I replaced

<I also think you would do well to reconsider Paul Hines. If you need any info on him, just ask the voters at the BBFHOF, who elected him in December.>

He's probably next on that list, and I understand most everyobdy is a rate guy, but a kinda short career in a not-so-great league
The 100 player list was never intended to be my or anyone’s personal list of the best hundred candidates. It incorporates a number of different views as to who the top candidates are, so to give voters a starting point. The aim was to capture anyone who could be a possible choice by our group. This is probably an impossible task, as it pretends to know the composition of the electorate down the line, which really isn’t possible.

So, sure, there’s no huge difference between your guys and mine, in most cases. Anyone is free to modify and tinker with the list to suit their own criteria, and I would expect most voters are doing just that. All our lists will have differences at the margins. Later in the project especially, these marginal differences should be a source for discussion and debate.

As for Hines, his career was extremely long, 20 years total with 18 as a full-time regular. Adjust his career for schedule length and he has well over 3000 hits. He was a superstar in the best leagues that existed.

Only if you make the mistake of punishing him for being born too soon is Hines not a deserving hall of famer.

[RuthMayBond]

The 100 player list was never intended to be my or anyone’s personal list of the best hundred candidates. It incorporates a number of different views as to who the top candidates are, so to give voters a starting point. The aim was to capture anyone who could be a possible choice by our group.That would explain some things, but there may be more possible choices

<As for Hines, his career was extremely long, 20 years total with 18 as a full-time regular.>

Sorry, I was referring to plate apps

<Adjust his career for schedule length and he has well over 3000 hits.>

I'm not sure it can be done in a linear fashion but whatever

<He was a superstar in the best leagues that existed.

Only if you make the mistake of punishing him for being born too soon is Hines not a deserving hall of famer.>

Which was the best league that existed from 1920-1947, the major leagues or the Negro Leagues? :D Ok, enough of that but now I wonder about the 1840 leagues. And I'm still wondering about some of the Pearce claims

[digglahhh]

1. M. Minoso
2. K. Hernandez
3. J. Torre
4. G. Gossage
5. A. Belle
6. S. Magee
7. D. Murphy
8. B. Bonds
9. P. Browning
10. A. Trammell

[leecemark]

1) Minnie Minoso
2) Ted Simmons
3) Goose Gossage
4) Alan trammell
5) Kieth Hernandez
6) Dale Murphy
7) Andre Dawson
8) Joe Gordon
9) Sherry Magee
10) Paul Hines

[538280]

1.Jimmy Wynn
2.Bobby Grich
3.Minnie Minoso
4.Bobby Bonds
5.Alan Trammell
6.Goose Gossage
7.Sherry Magee
8.Heinie Groh
9.Sal Bando
10.Wally Berger
Next Up: Lee Smith, Joe Torre, Dave Parker, Ted Simmons, Joe Gordon, Dan Quisenberry

[538280]

I'm sorry, you have to defend the pathetic nomination of Dickey Pearce.
Career slugging, .276.
Number of full seasons, five.
Number of 30+ RBI years, zero.
OPS+, 78.
Career RBI, 137.
Years after 1877, zero.
Sneaking him in the Hall, priceless :D
Dang, I left Hodges on ;)

Pearce was elected to the BTF Hall of Merit. His stat line isn't so impressive the way we look at it, but he was supposed to be an awesome fielder when fielding was probably about 80% of defense, and he was a great player before our statistical base begins in 1871. Look at his birth year. He was born in 1836, he was 35 years old in 1871. You're only seeing his decline phase on the BBRef page. He was one of the best (if not the best) player in the country during the 1850s and 1860s.

I'm not knowledgable enough on Pearce to say whether the BTF guys made a good selection, but they are very intelligent and tend to make very, very sound selections on the whole so I'm willing to go with their conclusion that Pearce was a truly great player.

Here's a link with some good discussion on Pearce (just use the "find in top window" feature and you'll find the discussion, because it's included in there with discussions of various other players):

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/1925_ballot_discussion/

[RuthMayBond]

Pearce was elected to the BTF Hall of Merit. His stat line isn't so impressive the way we look at it, but he was supposed to be an awesome fielder when fielding was probably about 80% of defense, and he was a great player before our statistical base begins in 1871. Look at his birth year. He was born in 1836, he was 35 years old in 1871. You're only seeing his decline phase on the BBRef page. He was one of the best (if not the best) player in the country during the 1850s and 1860s.I'm guessing this must be eyewitnesses (which are OK, if there's enough, and a general consensus). But a lot of people seriously downgrade players in the 1890s. How much more so in the 1850s?

[STLCards2]

1. Goose Gossage
2. Bill Dahlen
3. Minnie Minnoso
4. Sherry Magee
5. Tony Mullane
6. Pete Browning
7. Ted Simmons
8. Alan Trammel
9. Albert Belle
10. Dale Murphy

11. Bobby Grich
12. Andre Dawson
13. Dave Parker
14. Luis Tiant
15. Ken Boyer
16. Joe Gordon
17. Carl Mays
18. Keith Hernandez
19. Jimmy Wynn
20. George Van Haltren

[The Dude]

1.Sherry Magee
2.Gavvy Cravath
3.Ted Simmons
4.Minnie Minoso
5.Joe Gordon
6.Albert Belle
7.Goose Gossage
8.Bobby Grich
9.Stan Hack
10.Carl Mays

[yazfan88]

1. Jim Rice
2. Gil Hodges
3. Joe Wood
4. Luis Tiant
5. Dan Quisenberry
6. Rocky Colovito
7. Craig Nettles
8. Ken Boyer
9. Bert Campaneris
10. Dave Concepcion

[julusnc]

1.Sherry Magee
2.Minnie Minoso
3.Albert Belle
4.Gavvy Cravath
5.Pete Browning
6.Goose Gossage
7.Bill Dahlen
8.Alan Trammell
9.Joe Gordon
10.Carl Mays

[NeverJustAGame]

1.Sherry Magee
2.Alan Tramell
3.Albert Belle
4.Goose Gossage
5.Keith Hernandez
6.Minnie Minoso
7.Gavvy Cravath
8.Pete Browning
9.Carl Mays
10.Joe Gordon

[Dudeman]

Sherry Magee
Minnie Minoso
Gavvy Cravath
Pete Browning
Goose Gossage
Joe Gordon
Albert Belle
Paul Hines
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

[NationalPastime1980]

1.Pete Browning
2.Sherry Magee
3.Bill Dahlen
4.Alan Trammell
5.Albert Belle
6.Minnie Minoso
7.Goose Gossage
8.Lee Smith
9.Dan Quisenberry
10.Joe Gordon

[CoasttoCoast]

1.Minnie Minoso
2.Alan Trammell
3.Albert Belle
4.Goose Gossage
5.Bill Dahlen
6.Bobby Grich
7.Sherry Magee
8.Joe Gordon
9.Keith Hernandez
10.Pete Browning

[BlairRosen]

1.Minnie Minoso
2.Joe Gordon
3.Jim Rice
4.Andre Dawson
5.Goose Gossage
6.Sherry Magee
7.Keith Hernandez
8.Albert Belle
9.Dale Murphy
10.Alan Trammell

[Freakshow]

3.Tim Raines

Raines is not eligible yet, as he was active in 2002. Please revise your ballot.

[Erik Bedard]

1. Dahlen
2. Grich
3. Gossage
4. Wynn
5. Minoso
6. Darrell Evans
7. Murphy
8. Dwight Evans
9. Hernandez
10. Magee

If you look at my first ballot, it's the same, except I realized I forgot Minoso, so I inserted him at #5 and bumped DwEvans down three.

[Freakshow]

We have another clearcut verdict, so let's close out round two. Congratulations to Minnie Minoso, Goose Gossage and Sherry Magee, the next three players selected to replace the Coop's mistakes. We had a really good turnout, 16 voters. Again, no player was named on every ballot; Minoso and Gossage were left off one voter's ballot who thinks Rice, Hodges and Wood are much better choices. There were 43 different players who received votes.

Here are complete results for the second election:

Points Ballots 1st Pl. Top Ten
147 15 5 Minnie Minoso
105 15 1 Rich Gossage
95 14 4 Sherry Magee
73 13 1 Alan Trammell
58 7 1 Bill Dahlen
56 9 0 Albert Belle
48 8 2 Pete Browning
45 6 0 Bobby Grich
34 9 0 Joe Gordon
32 4 0 Gavy Cravath
the rest
31 6 0 Keith Hernandez
25 3 0 Ted Simmons
22 2 1 Jim Rice
19 2 1 Jimmy Wynn
17 2 0 Joe Torre
16 5 0 Dale Murphy
13 4 0 Paul Hines
11 2 0 Andre Dawson
11 1 0 Gil Hodges
10 2 0 Bobby Bonds
10 2 0 Ken Boyer
10 1 0 Tommy Bridges
10 1 0 Joe Wood
8 2 0 Dan Quisenberry
7 1 0 Luis Tiant
6 2 0 Lou Whitaker
6 1 0 Tony Mullane
5 2 0 Lee Smith
5 1 0 Rocky Colavito
5 1 0 Darrell Evans
4 3 0 Carl Mays
4 2 0 Deacon White
4 1 0 Mike Tiernan
4 1 0 Graig Nettles
3 2 0 Stan Hack
3 1 0 George Gore
3 1 0 Heinie Groh
3 1 0 Dwight Evans
2 1 0 Hardy Richardson
2 1 0 Sal Bando
2 1 0 Bert Campaneris
1 1 0 Wally Berger
1 1 0 Dave Concepcion