PCR and low outside pitches?

[hitdapill]

My son (12)has in the last six months embarked on his rotational hitting journey. Steve E's DVD's have really "clicked" with him. There has been a noticeable change in his ability to "get the damn barrel around" . One area he is struggling with is the ability to hit low outside pitches. It seems like he is almost "pulling off" the ball and results are weak, end of bat contact. Does anyone have any experience/drills/cues that will help? Any input would be appreciated!

[swingbuster]

Does anyone have any experience/drills/cues that will help? Any input would be appreciated!

Yes...go look at the Piazza clips referenced by Ray Porco and read my description of how he does it. You can also see and read some of this at

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=284&st=90#entry4067318

Learn what plane transition means from vertical bat sets to the 45 launch slot

Learn how to deliver the blow inside the ball with early spatial connections

Learn how a one piece turn will not let you hit one ball out of middle.

Learn what the " Bonds Top Hand " means.

Learn how to hit the inside seam of the ball

Learn that correct arm action in the preswing creating " hand torque" is the only way you will hit " away and down pitching"

Learn that just letting the ball get deep will never work to accomplish your goal

Learn that PCR is a rotation drill set but not a complete hitting package to handle a 17 inch plate I THINK YOU JUST LEARNED THAT.

Your not getting that darned bat out there exactly right because your not handling two balls from middle.

The coaches that use a more vertical hand set and understand it are in the vast minority as you will soon read but so are HOF hitters

IN HS ...what is your batting average if you bat .400 on pitches in and .000 in pitches away if they throw you half and half. That would be .200.

Now what is your batting average when they find that out and throw you only away.... .000. You getting it man You will have a great hitter that cannot contribute squat.

Time to accessorize you rotation

[Mark H]

I thought I saw someone had that side by side clip of the difference between Jeff Albert and a pro hitting the low outside pitch posted on their website? That would be an excellent visual for this question.

[Mark H]

OK, I've got it. Email me at mark_h45@hotmail.com and I'll send it to you.

[Mark H]

SB,

How about some clips?

[fungo22]

Your not getting that darned bat out there exactly right because your not handling two balls from middle.
Say what?


..............................

[LClifton]

Great screen name.

Looking at most home run clips, batters hit mistakes. Middle -in usually.
With that being said, what are your expectations for that pitch location?
Just watched the Cubs, Cardinals game and when the pitch was low and away,,,,not much was done with it.
My answer would be, the expectations of hitting that pitch REAL effective should be low.
Many ask the same question when a clip is posted,,,,"That was really good but how do they do on a pitch low and away"..?
My thought is usually flashed back to when Pujols hit the ball out against Lidge last post season---did anyone see what he did on the first two swings he took? Low and low and away, -----he looked pretty silly.
The pitch gets hit,,,don't get me wrong, but, from my short stint in studying clips, it doesn't get hit all that well, all that often. But there are things that can help.
Last question, Does your hitter swing and miss at this pitch ?
Does anyone have Ted Williams batting avg chart, that they could post here?

Just my thoughts,
LClifton

[Mark H]

I just ask for a clip of anything at th knees to see if they know how to tilt over and rotate. I'd really be more impressed if they could stay connected on the low inside strike. Still staying connected through the low outside strike has some issues as well. Anyone want the Wells JA clip let me know. Don't want to post it publically.

[hiddengem]

.............

[ssarge]

Your not getting that darned bat out there exactly right because your not handling two balls from middle.
Fungo:

I'm not sure what your confusion is, here. But I may be able to help - I believe I can demonstrate this.

"I should have yelled 'two!'"

Regards,

Scott

[Sultan_1895-1948]

My son (12)has in the last six months embarked on his rotational hitting journey. Steve E's DVD's have really "clicked" with him. There has been a noticeable change in his ability to "get the damn barrel around" . One area he is struggling with is the ability to hit low outside pitches. It seems like he is almost "pulling off" the ball and results are weak, end of bat contact. Does anyone have any experience/drills/cues that will help? Any input would be appreciated!

To me, this is a classic case of simply psychology.

As a hitter, if you take the mental approach of antcipating pulling, and then reacting to the outside pitch, you'll have much less success; as opposed to thinking up the middle or away, and then reacting to the inside pitch. You'll have very little behind your swing if you think inside/away. If you think up the midde/away, and then react to the inside, you'll have much more success imo.

I'm not discrediting Steve's DVD (never seen it), but from what I've read from here, it seems to encourage rotation with very little hand/arm adjsustment. If you focus too much on that, and get locked in, it won't allow you to make proper adjustments to the pitch middle away. Of course, if you sit back like you're supposed to, then you can't help but alter your rotational swing and go with the pitch.

I'm not sayin' you should abandon what he's learned altogether, but once you reach a certain level, smart pitchers will take advantage of a weakness low and way. Find a good way to teach him to sit back and use his top hand on the outside pitches. That might draw some comments from this crowd, but I'm giving advice from personal experience, and that's what I would focus on.

LC Clifton, here ya go: Let me know if you can't read the numbers, not sure how they'll come out when posted in a picture

[swingbuster]

I'm not discrediting Steve's DVD (never seen it), but from what I've read from here, it seems to encourage rotation with very little hand/arm adjsustment. If you focus too much on that, and get locked in, it won't allow you to make proper adjustments to the pitch middle aw

Correct.

If you do not prime your forearms and create a rotation center with the bat around the hands and rely on posture and swing plane alone then you will not hit the gray area on Ted's chart.

Also, for HS coaches, notice the BA in the gray can approximate a Team average for a HS team in a so-so year. Now, consider what they will team hit in that pitch location not being a HOF players. It is pretty bad.

Place a tee on front of plate in a middle in position ( ideal ) for a pull HR. Make NO hip coil away and just rotate to that ball and stop before impact. Your bat will be in the direct center of the back of the ball of that location. THat is why kids with bad swings can hit this location so hard and stare at middle away.

Now move the tee to center or one ball outside of center and make no hip coil and no plane transition and rotate to that ball and you will be on the outside seam every time pulling an away pitch usually as a GB to 3B , circling the ball.

You must coil your hips as you stride and use some mechanism to get inwardly setup with the upper body to get inside the baseball naturally to use the top hand whip. The proper preswing does it. Not PCR. It is more advanced than that. You cannot think I must hit the inside of the ball. It is determined in the backswing/ load/ coil/ arm and hand action, neg moves

It might be beneficial to take a look at Teds BHUT and vertical bat, and low lead elbow set up while you have that image up there and then study his swing and what happens next and read some of this thread from top down

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=240&st=0&#last

I'm not sayin' you should abandon what he's learned altogether, but once you reach a certain level, smart pitchers will take advantage of a weakness low and way. Find a good way to teach him to sit back and use his top hand on the outside pitches. That might draw some comments from this crowd, but I'm giving advice from personal experience, and that's what I would focus on

Sultan....you should be Sultan of Swing...you found the missing pieces in your best post ever. Good job

OBTW the Ted swing is NOT no stride as the poster commented. He is off his lead foot in the coil and off the rear foot into contact...full momentum transfer, bat plane transition, relaxed upper body, bat vertical and tipped forward, hip coil WITH vertical bat and lead elbow down. Lead leg extension in time with wrist unhinging. Weighless front foot at stride; weightless backfoot at contact, narrow base No reality/ perception gap here

[Mark H]

I'm not discrediting Steve's DVD (never seen it), but from what I've read from here,

Most of what you read on here about the dvd is written by guys who have never seen the dvd.

[Mark H]

Correct.

If you do not prime your forearms and create a rotation center with the bat around the hands and rely on posture and swing plane alone then you will not hit the gray area on Ted's chart.



You really should have studied Paul's sims. Then you would know how and why the rotational axis changes from the body to around the hands. You promoted yourself from student to teacher too soon.

[swingbuster]

maybe you guys should have stopped posting about kids clips at all if you were going to tell half the story and send them somewhere to get the rest

[LClifton]

Place a tee on front of plate in a middle in position ( ideal ) for a pull HR. Make NO hip coil away and just rotate to that ball and stop before impact. Your bat will be in the direct center of the back of the ball of that location. THat is why kids with bad swings can hit this location so hard and stare at middle away.
A fairly blanket statement, saying that they will have their bat directly in the center of the ball.
Are you saying this because most kids pull their hands inside? If so, I would agree.

Now move the tee to center or one ball outside of center and make no hip coil and no plane transition and rotate to that ball and you will be on the outside seam every time pulling an away pitch usually as a GB to 3B , circling the ball.
Really? If they are in the center of the ball placed middle in----what makes you think they will come around it if it's set up middle out?

I would contend that the opposite would happen on the middle out location (given, as you put it, the same swing) IF the hitter can truly but the bat sqaurely on the ball placed middle in.
Most hitters would tend to hit the middle out tee location off the end of the bat.

Placing too much emphasis on hitting the inside seam can cause a "slice" across the ball...Then when a hitter gets a "fat" pitch (mistake) they don't get it all because the path is too "slicey" (across the zone).

For a "caster" the inside seam is probably a good cue, I would agree.
Finding the proper plane ,,,properly,,,, is a challenge.

LClifton

[swingbuster]

Really? If they are in the center of the ball placed middle in----what makes you think they will come around it if it's set up middle out?

Because they were outside in all along. The inside location can get hit hard outside/ in. That was the point of the illustration

They do not hide the hands at toe touch...a Mankin absolute

Placing too much emphasis on hitting the inside seam can cause a "slice" across the ball...Then when a hitter gets a "fat" pitch (mistake) they don't get it all because the path is too "slicey" (across the zone).

Technically true but never seen anybody too inside the ball...about 999 to 1 the other way

[LClifton]

Because they were outside in all along. The inside location can get hit hard outside/ in. That was the point of the illustration
True...and when the pitch is out ---they are "out to in"----- even MORE...Now I see what you're saying. Point well taken.
Truth is on the inside pitch, they generally hit it foul.
That's why I was eluding to finding the plane "properly" .....

LClifton

[swingbuster]

Truth is on the inside pitch, they generally hit it foul.

Dead on my friend...and your saying .." man you gotta keep that ball fair"

[ssarge]

Dead on my friend...and your saying .." man you gotta keep that ball fair"

And I believe that Mark provided the answer for how to do this - or at least he referenced the Sims that demonstrated the answer.

You really should have studied Paul's sims. Then you would know how and why the rotational axis changes from the body to around the hands.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

I'm not discrediting Steve's DVD (never seen it), but from what I've read from here, it seems to encourage rotation with very little hand/arm adjsustment. If you focus too much on that, and get locked in, it won't allow you to make proper adjustments to the pitch middle away.
A couple of game swings at the link below. First and fourth ABs (2 walks in between). Happened to be on the Bay Area High School Sports Highlight show, so I saved them - couple of video conversions were necessary (my wife recorded to VCR, not DVR), so sorry for the bad quality video. Cool timing though, as the team in the field was ranked 5th in our area, and the pitcher is highly regarded (by some anyway).

Not her greatest swings, and so I'm reulctant to post them. But I would judge them as decent. She was reluctant for me to post them, too, for a different reason. She says the video conversions make her look fat, "especially my butt." She insists I point out for the record that she is 5' 11" and 150 lbs, wears medium pants and a medium top. (I'm not kidding, this was the price of admission).


The point is that she is a "PCR" hitter. And while there are some flaws in these swings, they do illustrate that adjusting for pitch location isn't any more problematic than for anyone else. Obviously, the outside pitch being lower would have made it more challenging. Same principles work, though.

As you can see, she is still in a developmental pattern of early, semi-static load and no stride. She is 15, a HS sophomore.

She is set up 9-10" off the plate. First pitch was just off the black outside - softball equivalent of a slider, at about 58mph (from a 35 foot release point). Second pitch was on the black inside - same speed, equivalent of a baseball screwball.

I think she contacted both these pitches where she should have (maybe a little too far forward on the outside pitch), and that hit trajectory / direction is what it should have been. I count 5 frames, heel drop to contact.

The fence distances are female college distance.

Regards,

Scott


http://eteamz.active.com/norcalshockers/news/index.cfm?cat=0&subsite=3523412

I can only leave this link up for a couple days,

S.

[swingbuster]

You really should have studied Paul's sims. Then you would know how and why the rotational axis changes from the body to around the hands.


I won't matter if the top hand is dominating at launch and most I have seen are doing that.

[Mark H]

Tom needs more field work and you need more classroom work plus a couple of hours on the field with Steve. Don't mean that in a Teacherman tone. Just mean it calmly and earnestly.

[wogdoggy]

Tom needs more field work and you need more classroom work plus a couple of hours on the field with Steve. Don't mean that in a Teacherman tone. Just mean it calmly and earnestly.


swingy with all the HBH money you make what would it hurt you to fly to houston to see the OTHER SIDE?

[swingbuster]

Woggy,

I don't know it all but I get rotation. I get the girl on ziggy's site turning the shoulders / shifting the weight into the front foot from no stride and rotating.

I shot 76 in a golf tourney on Sunday from the blues with hard pin placements and I play about 15-18 full rounds a year is a good year. I can swing a club several different ways, different planes and shifts. I can overlap the load and unload and one piece turn. I get it.

I am able to still learn but I have had an interest in this stuff for 25 years.

I know what happens if your back hp freezes and you get no hip turn and no shoulder turn and you swing with your arms and your hands get ahead.

I know that golf is a right handed game played left handed and how hard it is to train the lead hand and arm to not give way to the right hand in a swing.

I wish Steve the best. He is probably a great teacher. There is just a lot left unsaid on these sites that could help kids and even yours.

Nothing new has been discovered. Get an audience at the ABCA convention and give a talk " How I Invented the Swing". It would be a bit uncomfortable for sure

[Ursa Major]

Scott: Congrats to you and your DD on the great at-bats. Surely, she deserves a thread of her own, but if you want to wait where her great hits come with style points, that's fine too.

It's a little large, but I've taken the liberty of turning her hits into a .gif that we can all peruse here. (And I'll leave my clip up for a couple of months, so she can brag on it to others.) I've omitted anything that shows her rear end and the part of the clip where her first base coach goes meschugenah...
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Kelly2BHR0406.gif

[Steve Englishbey]

Sultan the implication of your quote--"Im not sain'you should abandon what he's learned but...."----is that whats on my dvds is somehow very basic and that he may need to "advance " to more higher level stuff soon [or eventually.]

You would be quite incorrect in that assessment [and I do realize that you have not seen my stuff-----and that you are being "informed " by a number of people who have demonstrated by their writings a near absolute ignorance as to whats on the dvds ,and why.I would most certainly urge you to bypass any of Swingbusters comments about what I teach and why. His understanding of the actual biomechanics of the swing are so poor as to render him with almost zero ability to accurately interpret anything that myself or Paul Nyman have written over the last several years. I have tried to stay away from comments like this------I do not have any interest in "debating" someone like Swingbuster because it is obvious that there is little that I say that he really understands and this is not going to change.However , when he applies his "expertise " to that which he has never even seen ----well that is eventually going to get my attention.And I will you Swingbuster what I told Tom---bring your ass down here to Houston and SHOW ME WHAT I TEACH.Since you think you know what the hell I teach ,then bring your ass to Houston and show ME MY STUFF.


To return to my original point here.

This is not info for the "faint of heart " ,nor is it a formulaic mass market 1,2,3 steps to success .Nor is info the equivalent of a "toy".There is over 4 and a half hours of visual demonstrations of basic physics principles as they apply to the swing,visual demonstrations of numerous aspects of pelvic movement,over 20 drill /movement patterns, including various ways to understand and practice momentum shift, many "functional details " as regards movement patterns [both good and bad] and things like scapula functioningetc.,et al.

Quite the contrary of what you are implying here ,these dvds have more info in terms of application than almost all others combined [that you see on the market].

I have recently had 5 high school coaches ----whose collective experience amounts to over 100 years of coaching ---say that without a doubt this info is the best that they have ever seen .[One coach told me he has watched the dvds over 20 times ---and learns something new every time he watches.]

Brent Strom ----someone who has been in professional baseball for years as a coach----has said that given the choice to pick any hitting instructor that he could chose, he would choose me.

These people [and these kinds of people ] have all seen my info. Swingbuster has not.

If anything there is too MUCH info----and I will be the first to say that it could be organized better [and it will be soon].

Suffice to say that this is not some kind of "starter kit".

This stuff is actually much closer to info you could spend the next yr.[or longer] trying to fully understand.And practice.And practice some more.

Some of it is very simple .

Much of it is simple conceptually ,but very difficult to master in terms of the movements I am showing ,eg., aspects of understanding how to effectively move to create "rotation into footplant",how to "defy gravity", etc.


Finally , I should say that in terms of hitting low pitches , what you have to do is maintain the tilt [as opposed to "standing"] ,learn how to create "effective rotational extension" [,as opposed to pulling the front arm in ,or push/roll with the back arm,etc.

These are some of the common problems with not hitting low /away pitches.

In general --and this applies to all pitches----the better the posture,the better the rotation ,the quicker and more efficient the swing will be.

The quicker the swing ,the better you will get at "sitting and turning" [waiting longer].

The better you get at waiting ,the better you will get at hitting tough pitches [like low and away].

The more you practice some of the drills ----especially the front arm drills----the better you will get at hitting low outside pitches.

I'll have more to say about some things to do Alec .

steve

[ssarge]

Thank you, Ursa. I wish I had better quality video for you to work with, but do appreciate the work you did.

Can you make my butt disappear so easily?

Best regards,

Scott

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan the implication of your quote--"Im not sain'you should abandon what he's learned but...."----is that whats on my dvds is somehow very basic and that he may need to "advance " to more higher level stuff soon [or eventually.]


I most certainly did not mean to imply your DVD was a "starter kit." Like I mentioned, I have not seen it, and no disrespect, but I really have no desire to watch it or any other video for me. This doesn't mean I'm not open to learn new things, but, and hopefully you'll hear some humility sprinkled in here, but I'm a pretty damn good hitter as is, and if there's such thing as a player/hitting coach, that's my role on our team. If I ever did watch a DVD, it would be more for them than me, to see if there's something new I could show them, or a different angle in fixing a certain problem. Honestly, I've never been one to get too scientific about the swing in terms of throwing around the phrases and lingo commonly used on this thread, but I understand the swing fully and choose to explain it to our players in simpler terms I know they will understand.

All I meant by that comment you quoted, was that from what I've read on here, it seems you encourage a one track swing, geared for the pitch middle in, and no doubt it produces great results on that. The thread topic is about the low and away pitch though, so my observation was that if this is indeed the case, then certain adjustments need to be made that might veer away from your teachings. The original posters comments led me to believe you didn't cover the proper adjustments, or else the kid wouldn't be having these problems on the low/away pitch. Maybe that's my fault for assuming.

[swingbuster]

I wish Steve the best. He is probably a great teacher

Steve I don't know how to be any nicer in regards to you. I do believe that upper body action creates a force that players must rotate with that is important to overcome top hand dominance.

I share my experiences with others as a long term youth coach actively working with kids almost daily. I also share and exchange these and other ideas with coaches from all over the country as well

Your buddies try to make you and how you teach kids to hit the center piece of this website for some reason...not me.

I am happy keeping my A$$ out of Houston..thank you.

His understanding of the actual biomechanics of the swing are so poor as to render him with almost zero ability

Nyman -esque at best .

Steves understanding of what I do and how I communicate the swing to kids is zero as well.

[LClifton]

All I meant by that comment you quoted, was that from what I've read on here, it seems you encourage a one track swing, geared for the pitch middle in, and no doubt it produces great results on that.
Then, with no disrespect, you would be inaccurate with this assumption. The DVD is more "far reaching" than that.

The thread topic is about the low and away pitch though, so my observation was that if this is indeed the case, then certain adjustments need to be made that might veer away from your teachings.
Sultan, I think your posts are good and enjoy reading them. Part of Steve's frustration stems from (if I may speak for Steve) those forming opinions without ever seeing him in action.
The original posters comments led me to believe you didn't cover the proper adjustments, or else the kid wouldn't be having these problems on the low/away pitch. Maybe that's my fault for assuming.
Probably a reasonable assumption based on those posts.
Steve teaches getting to the low pitch very effectively. In fact, when we went to his clinic, after some basics, it was one of the first things he covered. My post was,..... (not that you referring to mine) ..... to discuss the expected results of hitting a pitch low and away.
(Williams batting avg chart, you posted was what popped into my head when this whole thread started,,,,Thanks for posting it !)

Respectfully,
LClifton

[Mark H]

I am happy keeping my A$$ out of Houston..thank you.
.

Or, you could check your ego at the door, come to Houston, and find out for yourself.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Then, with no disrespect, you would be inaccurate with this assumption. The DVD is more "far reaching" than that.

I'll take your word for it.

Sultan, I think your posts are good and enjoy reading them. Part of Steve's frustration stems from (if I may speak for Steve) those forming opinions without ever seeing him in action.

Thanks.

The thing is, this forum area could be so much better than it is. Not for you guys. You guys get on here and are happy as clams to discuss hitting while throwing your terms around, and disagreeing over subtle issues. Some might not be so subtle, but for the most part, the two (or sometimes three) sides aren't all that far apart. It might be one thing that gets everyone hung up, and from there the learning can't go further, because so much time is spent going in circles on one small thing, and usually it ends in insults.

Regarding others that probably visit this section, I think you guys should look at this as more of an opportunity to share ideas and teach, rather than trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. Everyone is different. If I see a hitter who has an issue with hip sliding or his stride is not serving a positive purpose, my first idea is to widen his stance. From trial and error, I'd go from there and see how it works and listen to how it feels for him. We might look at the same clip and you'd never suggest to widen his stance, even though our goals are to get him to the same point.

So if I could say anything, it would be for some of you guys to not be so harsh. Let this section become more inviting for other posters who truly want to learn. Not necessarily to "dumb it down," but just to understand that it's hard enough as it is over the internet to share ideas. What are we here for? We all love baseball and love to talk hitting; we have that in common.

[Ursa Major]

As Loren implicitly reminds us, there was an original question here, which I'll address first:
My son (12)has in the last six months embarked on his rotational hitting journey. Steve E's DVD's have really "clicked" with him. There has been a noticeable change in his ability to "get the damn barrel around" . One area he is struggling with is the ability to hit low outside pitches. It seems like he is almost "pulling off" the ball and results are weak, end of bat contact. Does anyone have any experience/drills/cues that will help? Any input would be appreciated!Obviously, having swing clips would be a zillion times more helpful, but -- since I coach at that age level -- I can offer a couple of 'red flags' that may explain the problem here.

Blaming either Steve or PCR for the kid's difficulty at hitting the low outside pitch is like blaming Chevy for bad drivers. Totally independent. Indeed, the very nature of PCR works for hitting the low outside pitch, in at least two ways. First, simple physics tells you that proper posture -- i.e., bending over more for the low pitch -- will get you closer to the ball. Second, by focusing on rotation and connection rather than on bat extension, you're more likely to meet the ball even with the plate rather than out in front of it, which effectively shortens the bat.

At this age, I see a couple of problems that cause pulling off the ball among hitters at all levels. One of the most prominent is premature straightening of the front or rear legs, which at the very least will move the whole infrastructure higher and which may or may not result in the spine going more vertical. Another is opening the front knee and/or hips too soon. (This is discussed in this thread: here (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40105), but I'm not sure you want to go through all 451 posts to find the good stuff.) Videotape the kid and see if any of this is going on. Better yet, post the clip here, and let the sharp-eyed talent here give you a more definitive answer than our speculation could.

All in all, though, with the exception of superstrong types, like Ryan Howard or the Piazza swing recently, the best hitting on low outside pitches takes advantage of rotational principles. One of the better points that John Elliott makes on Mankin's Final Arc video is that -- to be able to hit the inside pitch -- you first have to be able to hit the outside pitch. Good rotational hitting lets you focus to some extent on the outside pitch because, if you do get an inside pitch, you can rotate faster and keep your arms bent, so you are more likely to hit the ball down the barrel and more likely to hit it fair. That's certainly a plus.

Regardless of the cause, one drill I've seen that's effective with low outside pitches is to put the kids in their normal stance and then put a tee on the plate so the ball is sitting just off the outside corner and about five inches back from the front edge of the plate. Now, make a line of three or four traffic/soccer cones extending from home plate through the usual second baseman's spot into right center field. Now, have a contest with your kids to see who can hit the ball harder/better in that space between the rightfield line and the cones. They'll soon learn to keep their hips closed more and their hands back in order to make it work.

SSarge said: Thank you, Ursa. I wish I had better quality video for you to work with, but do appreciate the work you did.
Can you make my butt disappear so easily?
Scott, sorry about the quality of what I produced, but it was 2MB as it was, even lowering the size, resolution and # of colors. And I did want to include a moment or two of the ball landing so that folks would know the result of each swing.

[LClifton]

but just to understand that it's hard enough as it is over the internet to share ideas. What are we here for? We all love baseball and love to talk hitting; we have that in common.
Yes sir, I would agree.
Certainly had no intent to discredit any observations you have.
Sincerely,
LClifton

p.s.Back to low and away,,,,,,,,,,,,FORE !!!!!!??? or tilt over?

[Ursa Major]

Sultan said: The thing is, this forum area could be so much better than it is. Not for you guys. You guys get on here and are happy as clams to discuss hitting while throwing your terms around, and disagreeing over subtle issues. Some might not be so subtle, but for the most part, the two (or sometimes three) sides aren't all that far apart. It might be one thing that gets everyone hung up, and from there the learning can't go further, because so much time is spent going in circles on one small thing, and usually it ends in insults.

Regarding others that probably visit this section, I think you guys should look at this as more of an opportunity to share ideas and teach, rather than trying to prove who is right and who is wrong. Everyone is different....So if I could say anything, it would be for some of you guys to not be so harsh. Let this section become more inviting for other posters who truly want to learn.Sultan, I agree on the harshness issue, but what are you going to do? Most folks here are exiles from Setpro where folks lived in fear of being bounced if they happened to simply agree with someone that Nyman disagreed with on some other issue! I've found a simple answer -- scroll past the insults and the advice of people whose comments I either don't understand or don't find to be credible. Those are easy to detect, and eventually you'll get to the good stuff.

I think people are more than gentle with the new denizens of the forums and do offer advice. Heck, Little_1_lady has found people mailing her bookds and DVD's to help get her new coaching season off the ground. Still, I agree sometimes the advice gets sidetracked into personal debates and the original poster gets lost in the shuffle. I do try to return to the original issues (as with my post above) and try to bear in mind the age and skill level of the subject of the advice. (I'd love to see this 12 y/o's face after trying to decipher Swingbuster's original answer. :eek: )

Is the advice too sophisticated? Sometimes. But, when we're talking about a dedicated college level hitter like Ohfor's son, he is ready for the "next step" in hitting. You may think hitting comes naturally and that videos may not be of assistance (and we'll be happy to scrutinize your swing and stats :D ), but I agree with Steve that a lot of what makes for good hitting is counter-intuitive to the body's instincts. And if you look at really good hitters, there's a lot of amazing stuff going on simultaneously in the four-tenths of a second of the ball's flight; that 'stuff' can only exist because of some pretty high level of analysis and work. Just because you choose not to take it to that level doesn't mean that others don't benefit from it -- to and including HG. I used to think that pelvic load, for example, was some supersophisticated, arcane mumbo-jumbo that folks made up to sound expert, and then realized watching twelve year olds that the ability to incorporate it (even if just a little bit and even if only by instinct) into their swings made a huge difference in whether they could get the ball out of the infield. Again, if it ain't for you ... move on to the next post.

Swingbuster said: Your buddies try to make you and how you teach kids to hit the center piece of this website for some reason...not me.
I am happy keeping my A$$ out of Houston..thank you.There seems to be a recurring attitude of certain folks that there is a monolithic Setpro/Englishbey mafia that "runs" or dominates the board ... and Swingbuster seems to think this is based on some personal allegiance to Steve E. I find it amusing that all of us -- from all over the country and from different walks of life -- somehow could have formed this little cabal to subvert the forums.

I offer a modest analogy. In my profession -- law -- one often sees appeals from a losing side at trials that essentially states, "The trial judge was biased against my case and my client because he always ruled against us." And the appellate court always responds, "Well, that's the sort of bias that we encourage in the law -- bias based on the merits of the case presented." And that kind of applies here. Many high level, successful coaches and parents on this Board have adopted certain principles of hitting based on experience that may stem from Steve, but more likely predates or (with Hitting-mechanics.org members) parallels Steve's learning process.

Steve has obviously taken hitting principles to a deeper level. Can't disagree with that. Is that deeper level more 'accurate' or Guerry-like mumbo-jumbo? Well, there are three levels of people to ask about it: top level coaches, top level hitters, and amateur/second tier coaches who are close enough to that level to comprehend and apply it. (I'll claim third tier status, thank you.) Steve has presented accolades from the first group, I'll accept HiddenGem's praise as emblematic of the opinions of the second group, and we've all heard from members of the third group as to their agreement with what he's able to achieve.

As far as teaching less sophisticated hitters, well, Steve's earned the praises from that group. I've yet to hear someone come on this forum or Setpro and say after having Steve work with a DD or DS, "Well, that was a waste." And I can believe it, because Steve speaks at a level that makes sense to us third tier types. I can't believe, by contrast, that you can successfully communicate with 12 year olds the kind of stuff you posted in response to Hitdapill's original question here.

Yes, SwingB, a lot of people here have recommended Steve's DVD. And, a lot more people recommend renting Lord of the Rings than recommend Deuce Bigalow: European Gigalow". So? Usually, it's not in response to a specific question of technique that could be answered in a sentence or two, but rather to a broader inquiry about hitting principles or to a specific request for DVD recommendations. Is there something else you'd recommend? I'm probably as much of a fan of Jack Mankin as anyone here outside of you and Tom G., but I find it's tough to recommend his DVD when I have to add the caveat, "By the way, ignore that top hand torque stuff, and it stops just when it's starting to get good, and it really only has three drills."

So -- in the same vein as the old adage, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you" -- just because lots of people agree with Steve (and he with them and they with much of Nyman and so on...), it doesn't make them unquestioning synchophants. Maybe they're all onto the same good thing.

But, as far as your implicit criticism of Houston.... Well, that's the second thing I've agreed with you on. Damp, flat, sprawling, damp, hot and ... damp.

[ssarge]

Ursa's post is remarkably well written and cogent.

I was going to say "I couldn't have said it better myself." Inaccurate. I couldn't have said it as well.


Everyone wants to be right; that's a given.

Most here - not all - are sincere enough in their objectives (regarding hitting) that being shown to be wrong is viewed as an opportunity.

"Cool. I learned something today."

But that is not to be confused as synonamous w/ being easy to persuade.


Knowing most of the personalities resident, I can honestly say I don't see a lemming here. I think just about any one of the "posse" would love to teach CLETUS a little something. Have him say, "you know, I may have been wrong about that. Good catch." Which I have reason to believe he would do, were it true, by the way. Then stick our chest out, and strut for a day or two. Hasn't happened yet, for me (although I still think he is full of crap about grip pressure), but I'm living for the day.


In fact, the personalities of many on this board are so strong, their intellect so keen, their experience so varied (but extensive), and backgrounds so different, that the mere fact that all have coalesced around Steve's approach and material is nothing short of miraculous.

And quite persausive as to veracity of the approach and material. Which absolutely NO ONE here simply accepted without significant research and extensive field experience.

Best regards,

Scott

[jojab]

Two outstanding, well thought out and well written posts by Ursa and a fine summary by Scott. Very well done, guys! :D

Joe

[swingbuster]

As a person that has spent most of his life pursuing things just out of reach, I guess I do want an occassional..."yeah, that makes sense or I DO see what is right in front of me".

Since I have coached using the preset shoulders, no stride, drop and tilt , method for years I do feel like weight transfer and plane transition is a breath of fresh air.

The books( checked today) do show a .365 team BA and 19 HRS in 21 games for a school record that dates back 34 years through 21 games. I do get a little excited about the " new approach " we are taking. 17-4 record and the non region winners cannot beat our best pitching.

After about 500 post saying the same thing and getting few takers....maybe we are doing it all wrong.

I started in January and nobody has gotten it yet....but as I said in line one...I have stayed the course before with some good outcomes....thats my nature.

Two more HRs today and I hope I have one on film but do have some other swing that are good hits.

[Mark H]

But, as far as your implicit criticism of Houston.... Well, that's the second thing I've agreed with you on. Damp, flat, sprawling, damp, hot and ... damp.

Come now. The weather's fantastic. But hurry, it won't last long.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Sultan, I agree on the harshness issue, but what are you going to do?


Wasn't so much speaking for myself, I can handle it. I was more speaking for others who would probably like to participate and share ideas/questions/thoughts/concerns, but know from reading some of these threads, that they'll either be bashed on, or be given a bunch of lingo that's impossible to decipher.


(and we'll be happy to scrutinize your swing and stats :D )

Believe me, I've been trying to figure out a way to get a clip from camcorder to a GIF on here. Nothing to hide, trust me ;)

[swingbuster]

Believe me, I've been trying to figure out a way to get a clip from camcorder to a GIF on here. Nothing to hide, trust me

Sultan...

I feel your pain...I left the field to film today during a game. First time through the 1st three guys including my stud hit weak balls. I filmed in a blinding glare not being able to see the view box and knowing whether rec was on or not half the time amidst the confusion.

The stud comes back up and I can't see well and punch things backwards. He hits a 360 foot bomb and I get home to have only the announcer saying HR Jeromy Smith. I wanted to yak . The battery runs out as my LH 5 hole hits a HR in the sixth. I get a few good hits recorded. YEOW! Maybe I can get the newspaper article.. More tomorrow and THursday and I will send to Sandman

[MSandman]

Sultan,

PM me if you'd like some help posting. I'm sure numerous others would help too.

Mike

[Ursa Major]

Sultan said: Wasn't so much speaking for myself, I can handle it. I was more speaking for others who would probably like to participate and share ideas/questions/thoughts/concerns, but know from reading some of these threads, that they'll either be bashed on, or be given a bunch of lingo that's impossible to decipher.
I don't know any newcomer who's been bashed who shows any sign of serious interest in learning. A few kids have made some lame posts and been called on it, but that's about it. The, uh... "lingo that's impossible to decipher" -- yeah, but other than SB and TG (and maybe Steve at his most professorial), I think people here have a "sense of audience"; they tone down the argot when responding to a newbie.

Quote: (and we'll be happy to scrutinize your swing and stats )
Believe me, I've been trying to figure out a way to get a clip from camcorder to a GIF on here. Nothing to hide, trust me
For a cheap capture device, I like the AverMedia EZMaker DVD PCI card.
http://www.aver.com/2005home/product/videocapture/ezmakerpci/ezmakerpci.jpg
You just drop it into your computer, and run the video cable that comes with your camcorder to the back of the card, and the audio end to the input hole of your sound card. Start the software and the playback function on your camcorder, and voila -- the clip gets saved in the format you choose (MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 work best) in whatever directory you want.

It's described here: http://www.aver.com/2005home/product/videocapture/ezmakerpci/ezmakerpci.shtml If you look around, you can find it for about $60; Fry's occasionally has it on sale for $40. They also have a USB version. I love it so much I got one for my dad, my brother-in-law, and my brother.

Jojab, thanks for your comment.

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: I feel your pain...I left the field to film today during a game. First time through the 1st three guys including my stud hit weak balls. I filmed in a blinding glare not being able to see the view box and knowing whether rec was on or not half the time amidst the confusion. Ain't that the way it goes. Because I've always got my camcorder going, parents expect me to get all the good plays. Our left fielder got called in to pitch Saturday; his first time on the mound in at least two years. And his Dad isn't there, so I record him pitching from every angle. An inning later I get the "out of tape" message in the middle of our rally -- I'd forgotten to rewind after downloading the previous weekend's clips. So, I rewind as far as I think I need to go and film the winning rally.

Sho' nuff, I get home and realize that I've recorded over every bit of footage of him pitching. (Fortunately, I got one still shot of him.) Fortunately, I did get him hitting the game winning single to centerfield -- his first hit of the seasons. Still, at the next day's game, I see his dad and the first thing he wants to know is if I videoed his son pitching.... "No, Craig, but I did get his gamewinning RBI; I hope that'll do." So, now I have to go to the Coach and suggest that he let the kid pitch again so I can redeem myself... which'll be hard to persuade him to do, because he gave up three runs in his one inning of work.

And I never get a shot of my son fielding... Why? 'cuz instead of filming I'm always screaming my lungs out telling him where to throw the ball.

[Mark H]

As a person that has spent most of his life pursuing things just out of reach, I guess I do want an occassional..."yeah, that makes sense or I DO see what is right in front of me".

Since I have coached using the preset shoulders, no stride, drop and tilt , method for years I do feel like weight transfer and plane transition is a breath of fresh air.

The books( checked today) do show a .365 team BA and 19 HRS in 21 games for a school record that dates back 34 years through 21 games. I do get a little excited about the " new approach " we are taking. 17-4 record and the non region winners cannot beat our best pitching.

After about 500 post saying the same thing and getting few takers....maybe we are doing it all wrong.

I started in January and nobody has gotten it yet....but as I said in line one...I have stayed the course before with some good outcomes....thats my nature.

Two more HRs today and I hope I have one on film but do have some other swing that are good hits.

Keep in mind who and what age group you are working with and how small and homogenous your sample size is and what this might mean you don't know about hitter development at what stage and age. Also keep in mind, you might be surprised by what Steve would teach, change or leave alone at what age and proficiency. Having some success with a group of hs hitters doesn't mean it's time to take your student cap off. Sharing what worked with this group of boys and how you interpret it is one thing. Announcing you have it figured out is, in this case, premature IMO.

[fungo22]

http://www.aver.com/2005home/product/videocapture/ezmakerpci/ezmakerpci.jpg So that's what it looks like.

[Ursa Major]

So that's what it looks like.You're makin' fun of me, aren't ya, Greg? Yeah, I know it looks like any other card-type device. But, old timers like me remember when video capture devices would look like scaled down Buicks. So, I thought it would be nice to show that it's nothing huge or mysterious.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Thanks for the tip Ursa, but honestly I'd be better off trying to cure cancer.

I'll record something on a camcorder, and it's on that little tape. Then something as simple as recording that footage onto a VHS tape is a chore with the dvd, vcr, cable box, 360. So many wires going every which way it makes my head explode.

I just want a cord that goes from the camcorder directly to my pc, maybe into the usb port, and I should be able to click "transfer" or something, and the footage just magically appears as a gif. Nothing can be simple. :ughh

[fungo22]

You're makin' fun of me, aren't ya, Greg? Maybe a little. :D It's a bad habit. "I grieve over it during the long winter evenings." (Scott?)

But, old timers like me remember when video capture devices would look like scaled down Buicks. So, I thought it would be nice to show that it's nothing huge or mysterious. So you're saying your photo is its actual size?

[ssarge]

Maybe a little. It's a bad habit. "I grieve over it during the long winter evenings." (Scott?)
Over them. . .

1:00AM, Fungo, and I cant get to the Big Sleep. . . .

Regards,

Scott

[MSandman]

Thanks for the tip Ursa, but honestly I'd be better off trying to cure cancer.

I'll record something on a camcorder, and it's on that little tape. Then something as simple as recording that footage onto a VHS tape is a chore with the dvd, vcr, cable box, 360. So many wires going every which way it makes my head explode.

I just want a cord that goes from the camcorder directly to my pc, maybe into the usb port, and I should be able to click "transfer" or something, and the footage just magically appears as a gif. Nothing can be simple. :ughh

Does your PC have an IEEE FireWire card? You can buy/install one of those too if it doesn't. But my laptop came w/ one, as do many newer PCs. Then you can do as you say, "go right from camcorder to PC". (still will need software to transfer)

[swingbuster]

Sharing what worked with this group of boys and how you interpret it is one thing.

I prefer to think that I have been sharing what has helped a group of boys. Since I have had a coaching relationship with some on this tearm that dates back to age 7, I think I can suggest that a few changes in hand set has made a big difference.

Announcing you have it figured out is, in this case, premature IMO.

The 1956 images posted of Hank Aaron might predate my discovery so I would not go as far as to say I figured it out. His 700 plus HRs with no steroids might clue you however.

The fact that Pujols publically said that the hand set was his key to what followed in his swing might stimulate some interest.

The fact the Ted Williams started with a vertical bat and it influenced his loading and Barry Bonds etc.....

You think this about me vs some guy in Houston ....hahahaha!! Your just shooting the messenger...the message is etched in baseball history and captured on image and film

[Mark H]

Instead of looking for a way to justify your position, what if you looked for anything you may have overlooked, misunderstood or misinterpreted? As far as arguing this or that great hitter displayed the movements you describe, that's a straw man. No one ever said otherwise. Clips have pointed out that not every great hitter does. People have other ideas about developmental steps. You aren't following the argument much less understanding what is behind it. You went to the first semester of auto mechanics, fixed some friends' cars successfully and then decided you were an automobile design engineer to draw an analogy.

[swingbuster]

Instead of looking for a way to justify your position, what if you looked for anything you may have overlooked, misunderstood or misinterpreted? As far as arguing this or that great hitter displayed the movements you describe, that's a straw man. No one ever said otherwise. Clips have pointed out that not every great hitter does. People have other ideas about developmental steps. You aren't following the argument much less understanding what is behind it. You went to the first semester of auto mechanics, fixed some friends' cars successfully and then decided you were an automobile design engineer to draw an analogy.

It is not just my position. It is the way great players hit. Has nothing to do with me.

I am way past the first semester....come on...

People do have other ideas about developmental steps. There is more than one way to swing and to teach it. You aren't publically acknowledging the power of hand torque or understanding how it can fit into a complete swing model and hit sliders and late breaking pitches. What if you looked or experimented with things you have overlooked.

You went to "brain wash" school held by an engineer that did not play sports and still doesn't. He taught rants of rhetoric that are just smoke screens when somebody crossed his point of view...at least you have avoided that trait.


He renamed old terms and taught intolerance and patted people on the head that kissed his butt. Some people need that affirmation. You graduated and continued to support him and you decided that you should tell everybody who has the teaching model to use to draw an analogy.

Post another clip...the HR has the hands ahead of everything completely. They did not stay back behind the mechanism because there is no mechanism.

[Mark H]

It is not just my position. It is the way great players hit. .

Some do, some don't. Who said otherwise?





I am way past the first semester....come on... .

I don't think you are as far along as you think you are.





What if you looked or experimented with things you have overlooked.

I thought that's what I said?




You went to "brain wash" school held by an engineer that did not play sports and still doesn't. .

At least I read everything before I pontificated on it. By the way, Steve did play sports.







He renamed old terms and taught intolerance and patted people on the head that kissed his butt. Some people need that affirmation. You graduated and continued to support him and you decided that you should tell everybody who has the teaching model to use to draw an analogy.

Is that what this is about? You're mad at Paul and now me too? Who cares what Paul's shortcomings are?

[LClifton]

What do you think about hitting a low and outside pitch?:D

Sarge, your daughter's timing in the posted clip is incredibly good.
Thanks for sharing it with us.
How do you teach hitting ----low and away?

Anyone ever see Steve do the thing where he stands up straight and alternately drives each knee towards the ground? Kinda looks funny,,,,,might help with effectively getting to a low and away location. Any thoughts?

LClifton

[ssarge]

Loren:

Thanks for the kind words about Kelly's swings.

From eMails I have gotten, I think a couple don't appreciate that the clip of Kelly above is actually two swings from the same game. People have said, "oh, the swings look the same" - yeah, kind of the point. The first hit - double to CF on the outside pitch - was hit much better than the HR on the inside pitch. It was a SEED, just didn't have much loft.

Neither is one of her better swings - obviously, too much weight on the back side (especially on the HR) and so consequently there were plane problems. But she clearly adjusted well, and I thought they were decent game swings.

Mainly my point was to post two swings from the same hitter in the same game who DOESN'T use extensive arm action - just loads efficiently and early (I would personally term these good scap load swings, and consequently see very little pushing) - and who doesn't stride - just creates some momentum and turns.

NOTE: My belief on the upper body loading process is that enhancement to power is not the primary objective. That this loading process can be a timing mechanism is important. However, what I think is even more important is getting the arms / hands into a position where the top hand can't push. And I believe Kelly accomplishes this. In this description of the function of the upper body load, I obvious vary dramatically from what Donny and Tom believe. Which is not to say that I am right and they are wrong. I just believe differently. Making the upper body load more dynamic is on the horizon, and this will help her timing. In HER case - and Steve validated my own thinking on this, a static load was an important part of the development process, because she had a propensity to push. Solving that was FAR more important than the timing issue. Now I feel it is relatively solved, and we'll look at making the load more dynamic now. Because we can.

Clearly, there is some efficiency to be gained as she continues to develop. But she is already getting good results w/ a simple swing. She is around 5 frames, and her best bat speed is 82mph. Meaning that she could hit an 80mph baseball close to BB HR distance, too. Good quickness, decent power for a 15 YO female. In fact, it would be pretty good quickness and power for a 15 YO male.

Her better swings also create more momentum - she clearly sat back on these pitches. Despite putting herself in this handicapped position, I think she rotated rather well.


I guess my point was the swing can be simple and still be effective. In the clips, she is facing an 18U ASA pitcher from California. Meaning the pitcher is pretty good and will probably pitch in college. The fence is college distance.

In other words, her swing is good enough to "get 'er done" (Fungo?) even at this relatively early developmental stage, and even at less than this particular player's best result.


To me, the debate is not one of defining optimal hitting mechanics at the MLB level. It is defining how to GET a kid from Point A to whatever Point B (eventual peak capacity) may be for that kid. How to communicate, what to stress, how to prioritize, how to get immediate results sufficient to let the kid enjoy a continued forum to play / improve, how to build a foundation which can be enhanced w/out "unlearn / relearn."

In this effort, Steve and his material have been most influential. NO close second. We had definitely topped out w/ Epstein / Mankin / Lau, etc. (In fact, the weight back in these game swings is a legacy of her extensive Epstein training). She is now much improved since beginning to work w/ Steve. He is quick to point out what needs to improve (feel free to chime in as you desire, Steve), and I suspect he would share my belief about creating a more dynamic load, and especially about creating more momentum. But I also think he is also reasonably pleased w/ her progress.

Regards,

Scott

[Ursa Major]

LClifton said: Ursa
What do you think about hitting a low and outside pitch? I'm for it.
....
....
(That's a variation on the old joke about the politician who waffled on every issue until someone asked him about sin; he replied, "I'm against it.")

But seriously, some of my thoughts are in post #36. Don't bear repeating. I think the important thing is to keep your weight toward the plate (too many kids are back on their heels) and to keep the hips closed until the last second. One of the discoveries I've made on my hitting journey is that balls to be hit well do not have to be struck at the seeming "optimal" point of the swing. SSarge's daughter's HR is an example of that; she's not nearly "extended" when she makes contact. It's usually enough that the bathead be accelerating. So, if you rotate late but hard, you can take that pitch into right field with some pop even if the bathead hasn't traveled as far as it would if you're turning on an inside pitch.

In fact, when I was in youth ball, those pitches were my bread and butter, although my closed stance probably had something to do with it. I suspect I didn't fully rotate well anyway, so a short quick hip pop was as good as I was going to do. Even when I got into adult slo pitch, I would foul off the inside stuff intentionally to wait for that middle-out pitch, cuz I knew I could smack a line drive into right centerfield every time. It didn't wow too many people, but they sure liked my .700 batting average.

[swingbuster]

At least I read everything before I pontificated on it

I got kicked out before pointification.

I think it is about hand set, loading and weight shift.

So, if you rotate late but hard, you can take that pitch into right field with some pop even if the bathead hasn't traveled as far as it would if you're turning on an inside pitch.

In fact, when I was in youth ball, those pitches were my bread and butter, although my closed stance probably had something to do with it. I suspect I didn't fully rotate well anyway, so a short quick hip pop was as good as I was going to do. Even when I got into adult slo pitch, I would foul off the inside stuff intentionally to wait for that middle-out pitch, cuz I knew I could smack a line drive into right centerfield every time. It didn't wow too many people, but they sure liked my .700 batting average.

maybe something to that

[LClifton]

..........core swing is accomplished, (reasonably close to mastered)

Incorporating the items below are something that will significantly hinder the learning of a good "core" swing. (IMO) So, I agree.
Making the upper body load more dynamic is on the horizon, and this will help her timing. In HER case - and Steve validated my own thinking on this, a static load was an important part of the development process, because she had a propensity to push.
Solving that was FAR more important than the timing issue. Now I feel it is relatively solved, and we'll look at making the load more dynamic now. Because we can.
In our own quest,,,,,the timing issue and "no push" are very related.
Or if I don't push my timing improves, either way you look at it the tendency to push, (reach out and hit the ball) is a powerful thing to overcome.
But as Steve says, "It's doable." (with stipulations) That stipulation being an explicit understanding.
We are at relatively the same place Scott, and -----------'aint it fun'?
LClifton

[hiddengem]

Does your PC have an IEEE FireWire card? You can buy/install one of those too if it doesn't. But my laptop came w/ one, as do many newer PCs. Then you can do as you say, "go right from camcorder to PC". (still will need software to transfer)


I use a Belkin Video Bus capture device, which plugs into a USB slot, and I use the Program "Windows Movie Maker, to capture the clips. Pretty simple.

[ssarge]

Even when I got into adult slo pitch, I would foul off the inside stuff intentionally to wait for that middle-out pitch, cuz I knew I could smack a line drive into right centerfield every time. It didn't wow too many people, but they sure liked my .700 batting average.

Ursa:

I actually think that IS a pretty good strategy. Unfortunately, these days in SP, a couple foul balls is a K.

What is worse, you don't even get to trot around the bases when you hit one. Baserunner and hitter just head for the dugout.

If there is a greater joy in sports then turning left at your own pace, I haven't yet found it. And they took it away!

Panful.

Best,

Scott

[ssarge]

In our own quest,,,,,the timing issue and "no push" are very related.
Us, too, and I'll bet that is not unusual.

Best regards,

Scott

[4for4]

I got kicked out before pointification.

I think it was for unsubstantiated pontification.

[ssarge]

We are at relatively the same place Scott, and -----------'aint it fun'?

Loren:

I would put your daughter's progress a little ahead of mine. Your daughter is just doing exceptionally.


I am pleased with kelly's progress, however.


She is not a gifted athlete, and she started late. But is playing at a high level and getting good results. And I think there IS upside in her swing.

Best,

Scott

[LClifton]

Loren:

I would put your daughter's progress a little ahead of mine. Your daughter is just doing exceptionally.
BUT, factor in the better teacher. (you) (compliment intended):)


I am pleased with kelly's progress, however.
As you should be, she is progressing nicely, very nicely.


She is not a gifted athlete, .
Scott, I (as you know) seldom disagree with you. This is one of those times.
There are kids that will play their whole "career" and not hit one out.
and she started late
The best answer I can give is,,,,,,,,,,SO...........

Just havin' a little fun.

LClifton

p.s. I can't wait to see you guys.

[ssarge]

p.s. I can't wait to see you guys.

Me, too, Loren. Will be great to hook up.

Are you guys playing in the J.O. Classic in Las Vegas in early June? I know we are in a different region for Gold Qualifiers (ours are SoCal and Vancouver), but we are in the same Sector (4), right? So maybe we'll see each other at the Sector Qualifier in Sacramento in late June? Also, we plan to play the National Gold qualifier in Oklaholma in July (the week after Colorado). Any cross-pollination on any of that? Dinner is on me, for sure.



BUT, factor in the better teacher. (you)
Ridiculous. You are extremely knowledgable about hitting, and at least as much so with pitching, and your daughter is exceling at both.



Scott, I (as you know) seldom disagree with you. This is one of those times.
There are kids that will play their whole "career" and not hit one out.
I know, and I couldn't be more appreciative. Or more proud of her. In fact, she has hit 4 out CONSECUTIVELY in practice on two occasions. Two or three consecutively many times.

But she seriously is not athletic, and I mention it not to marginalize her - she would tell you the same thing. I / she could demonstrate it for you in person - it really is true.

The reason I mention it is that optimizing mechanics becomes far more crucial for people w/ average motor skills then for great athletes. Many times, the gifted athlete USES athletecism to get the great result. The "average" person typically can't do that.


In short, show me a typical (meaning not athletically gifted) kid who can't hit the ball out of the infield progress to being a consistent power hitter against elite age group pitching in the span of a couple of years, and I'll listen really hard as the mechanics are described.

Show me a great athlete hitting powerfully against good pitching, and I'll still listen. But I'll weigh other factors as well. This is why I have asked Donny to describe the athletes with whom he is working. It sounds as if they are GREAT all-around athletes, who excel at many sports. A credit to their hard work and dedication. But also a sign to me that they are just phenomenally gifted. Which DOESN'T mean that their mechanics are not top-shelf as well. Just means that I don't know until I see them in action.

My interest has always been how to develop the average to good athlete into a star hitter. Because that is what I've had to work with. Ideally, you start w/ a great athlete, and develop great mechanics. But I can only influence ONE of those things, same as anyone else. The rest is just playing the lottery.

Best,

Scott

[swingbuster]

I think it was for unsubstantiated pontification.

I think it was absolutely unequifocally pre-pontificatory in nature with some measure of certainty.

Some said I just " pissed him off" but I not real sure.

[ssarge]

Well that ain't real hard to do, Donny. That list is pretty long.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

Scott,

He had a hair trigger possibly induced by a small measure of self doubt that he did not want revealed. You can stay near the top without knocking others down. You just have to do a good job at what your doing and try hard.

DB.

[fungo22]

Over them. . .

Manners.

It seems like we've had this discussion before.

[swingbuster]

Manners.

I seems like we've had this discussion before.

Speaking of manners...what did you do with the man with many names? Duck tape would have come loose by now :laugh

[fungo22]

Speaking of manners...what did you do with the man with many names? Duck tape would have come loose by now :laugh You've got a laughy face at the end, so I feel I must be missing something good here. But I'm afraid I'm drawing a complete blank. Man with many names? Also, I rarely use duct tape and have never used duck tape. I've never had a duck that needed taped. Are you sure you have the right guy?

[fungo22]

Oh, are you talking about that guy from Princeton with the unified theory of hitting in the last days of h-m.org who thought I had bad manners? Man, you've got a memory. I had forgotten all about that. Now I know why Scott got that obscure Bogart/Marlowe quote so dang quick: We have had this discussion before. Damn, I'm getting senile.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Also, I rarely use duct tape and have never used duck tape. I've never had a duck that needed taped. Are you sure you have the right guy?

I duck taped a bobwire fence once :cool:

[NJPirate]

Guys,

Kind of a newbie here, so I apologize for sounding dumb, but getting back to the original question:

Why is a 12 year old trying to hit low and outside pitches hard? Don't most ML ballplayers struggle with this? Shouldn't we be teaching focus belt high(+/- 6"), and with two strikes, just spoil anything not in this zone? I agree that a 12 year old should be learning how to hit inside vs outside pitches that are belt high (+/- 6").

I mean, maybe ssarges daughter should have just taken that "low/outside" pitch (assuming less than two strikes). Is it necessary to focus on torso tilt vs knee hinge (as an adjustment mechanism for non belt high pitches) for most kids this age (12)?

Again, just a newbie, what am I missing?

[fungo22]

Again, just a newbie, what am I missing? Well for one thing, you missed my original Big Sleep trivia question back at Hitting-Mechanics.org.

[Mark H]

I got kicked out before pointification.


Should have finished your reading first.



I think it is about hand set, loading and weight shift.




I know. Something worked with a few mid to late teen fairly high level ball players and now it's your cornerstone and foundation.

[MarkL]

by swingbuster to Mark H and others:
You went to "brain wash" school held by an engineer that did not play sports and still doesn't. He taught rants of rhetoric that are just smoke screens when somebody crossed his point of view...at least you have avoided that trait.


He renamed old terms and taught intolerance and patted people on the head that kissed his butt. Some people need that affirmation. You graduated and continued to support him and you decided that you should tell everybody who has the teaching model to use to draw an analogy.

Exactly!!!

[4for4]

by swingbuster to Mark H and others:


Exactly!!!

Got your panties in a bunch there buckaroo?

[fungo22]

He renamed old terms ...

Exactly!!! Then you should be able to list a few old terms he just renamed?

[ssarge]

Why is a 12 year old trying to hit low and outside pitches hard? Don't most ML ballplayers struggle with this? Shouldn't we be teaching focus belt high(+/- 6"), and with two strikes, just spoil anything not in this zone? I agree that a 12 year old should be learning how to hit inside vs outside pitches that are belt high (+/- 6").

I mean, maybe ssarges daughter should have just taken that "low/outside" pitch (assuming less than two strikes). Is it necessary to focus on torso tilt vs knee hinge (as an adjustment mechanism for non belt high pitches) for most kids this age (12)?

Again, just a newbie, what am I missing?

NJ Pirate:

I don't think you are missing anything. It probably is pretty dependent on the level of play, though. In this case, the hitter is 15, and although this was a HS game, she plays 18U Club Ball.

12 YO? Maybe. But even there, what do you do w/ 2 strikes when the pitcher hits the spot low-outside?

You can certainly work on fouling it off. And in fact, my daughter does work on that. Pretty easy pitch to foul off (as opposed to say inside).

But sometimes, you just have to execute a swing against the pitcher's pitch. Because the pitcher hits her spots and gets ahead, then hits the spot again. Or maybe it's hit-and-run. Or maybe the ump's strikezone is 1-2 balls outside, and bottom of the knees instead of the top (common in CA FP). Meaning that knee high actually ON the outside corner is the best pitch you're likely to see. In fact, it's almost a "miss" by the pitcher.

Not sure how it is across the country, but in CA FP, if you're sitting on middle / middle from about age 13-14 on, you might be waiting a long time, spanning several ABs. Knees and armpits is the norm, and the pitchers hit the corners as well.


In this specific clip, the pitch was outside, but just below the waist. I think EVERYONE needs to be able to hit ANY waist high pitch - don't see that one often, and you want to jump on it when you do.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

Something worked with a few mid to late teen fairly high level ball players and now it's your cornerstone and foundation.

The experience spanned 12 years

I started no stride, preset upper body and drop and tilt

We won through those years too as opposing coaches knew less than that

We added hand set, weight shift, and better loading pattern

Maybe without knowing it, we just did an expanded PCR( rotational emphasis) and then accessorized it in the last two years

Whatever..the accessories took it to a higher level. I will send some clips today to Sandman. I missed the two HRs but I have a few good shots.

I will try to get more in the weeks ahead. Steven Speilberg..I am not

[MSandman]

Did anyone else see this Monday night? One of the worst "analyses" I've ever seen.

He was trying to make the [absurd] point that Chavez is off to a good start this year because of his more upright posture.

For his examples, he first showed a swing from last year. The pitch was a nasty low/outside (maybe even off the plate) pitch that Chavez couldn't reach. But it looked to me like he really did all he could in a valiant attempt. His posture was definitely quite tilted. But what was the game situation and the count? Maybe he expected the pitch out there and was purposely setting up for it?

Then he showed a swing from this season, in which he was much more upright and looked like he jacked it out. But this pitch was on the inside corner! Of course he was more upright! Again tho, what was the situation and count? If more of a hitter's count, maybe he was expecting the middle/in pitch and was prepared to only swing if he got it. If so, maybe he was purposely standing more upright?

I just thought it was a shameful "apples to oranges" analysis - two completely different pitch locations, and Reynolds trying to draw conclusions from it.

And this guy gets PAID to do this? :rolleyes:

[Mark H]

Maybe without knowing it, we just did an expanded PCR( rotational emphasis) and then accessorized it in the last two years



Could be. Like I said, none of us ever said some pro hitters don't do what you describe.

[Mark H]

Then he showed a swing from this season, in which he was much more upright and looked like he jacked it out. But this pitch was on the inside corner! Of course he was more upright! Again tho, what was the situation and count? If more of a hitter's count, maybe he was expecting the middle/in pitch and was prepared to only swing if he got it. If so, maybe he was purposely standing more upright?

:

I agree on the generally goofy analysis but why would a hitter want to be more upright on the inside corner assuming you mean low inside corner?

[Mark H]

by swingbuster to Mark H and others:


Exactly!!!

Are you criticizing Paul's personality and character or his analysis? Referring to me and others, can you be more specific in terms of what you disagree with me on mechanically? I am interested in substantive comments and disagreements if any on the subject of how to hit a baseball. Don't really care if you don't like me personally.

[ssarge]

Generally, I think Reynolds is one of the BETTER MLB analysts - which is admittedly grading on a pretty low curve.

Those of us watching Chavez daily listen to A's color man Ray Fosse, an experience I would not wish on ANYONE. Absolutely excruciating blather.


I was going to pose the same question as Mark. I would think low/inside would involve more torso tilt than low/outside (assuming the bat is perpendicular to upper spine).


Comparing last year's Chavez swing to ANYTHING is dicey. For a 30 game stretch last year, his left foot was actually TOUCHING the back outside corner of the batters box, and front foot in a fairly normal position. Most closed stance I ever saw, plus his back foot was 4 FEET from the plate. I came very close to throwing my shoe through the TV on several occasions. For a while, I literally started leaving the room every time he came up.

Probably unfair, since it is pretty obvious MLB players don't much listen to their hitting coaches (and probably shouldn't, in many cases), but I blame Hudgins.

Apparently, the A's blamed him, too, since he is no longer employed.


Anyway, I've generally felt Chavez has had some good, connected swings this year. Crosby hit a HR against the Twins Tuesday night that was just georgeous. His swing had a distinctly linear hand path two years ago as he came into the league. It's gotten more and more connected and he now looks like an efficient Big League hitter. In fact, he could be a great one.

Regards,

Scott

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I saw that Reynolds analysis. His main focus seemed to be on the difference in Chavez's leg kick. Last year, when he'd lift his leg up, his body crouched even before the pitch had been delivered. This blocked himself off from pitches in certain locations. I think that was Harry's main point.

[swingbuster]

Are you criticizing Paul's personality and character or his analysis? Referring to me and others, can you be more specific in terms of what you disagree with me on mechanically? I am interested in substantive comments and disagreements if any on the subject of how to hit a baseball. Don't really care if you don't like me personally.

I think that Nyman emphasised the rear elbow and back scap. I think it ignored the front shoulder and how the lead elbow needs to come down to accomodate a high rear elbow.

I believe some coaches keyed in on this point and worked the rear elbow and that is not as effective. The lead elbow being behind the belly button is definitely a better indicator of whether the shoulders are turned back for me.

I think he( Nyman) was turf hungry and wrote Mankin off because of THTwhen Mankin was seeing a loading sequence that was correct even if you do not agree with THT in it's pure form.

At some point in many MLB swings the BHUT seems to appear. In some it starts there and in others it materializes in the total pattern of upper body movement. I see it as an enabler of the hands to release and a connector of the bottom hand and a mechanism to get better hip shoulder separation. The stronger the player, the closer the fence, the more movement on the pitches, the more use the hand torque and release can have.

Your group has heard what we say and will use it in some form just as we will use some PCR in some form . It is unavoidable. Whether it will be admitted...well not likely. Do I care...not really.

I don't know you personally but there are few people I dislike. Ofher and I could drink a beer and have a good time I am sure. Well, it might take 2 or 3 .

.

[jojab]

Speaking of manners...what did you do with the man with many names? Duck tape would have come loose by now :laugh

Fungo22,

I think Donny was referring to the absence of Ohfor, Teacherman, Infopimp, etc. over the last few days. That's my guess anyway. :confused:

Donny, he is probably busy working on Steve's new website! :atthepc

Joe

[LClifton]

I duck taped a bobwire fence once :cool:
Now that is funny....:laugh
LClifton

[Mark H]

Swingbuster,

It's been awhile but I think Paul was clear in the need for the lead arm to be completely in the swing plane. As to tht, from early on, my point was it does not do what Jack says it does which is to supply significant energy to the bat. More later. Good conversation.

[swingbuster]

Fungo22,

I think Donny was referring to the absence of Ohfor, Teacherman, Infopimp, etc. over the last few days. That's my guess anyway.

Donny, he is probably busy working on Steve's new website!

Joe

Joe, You were right. He needed something to do constructive


It's been awhile but I think Paul was clear in the need for the lead arm to be completely in the swing plane. As to tht, from early on, my point was it does not do what Jack says it does which is to supply significant energy to the bat. More later. Good conversation.


I agree THT is not conscience. With a high hand set I think it adds displacement which is power in a sense when compared to swings that have little.

[tom.guerry]

Scott-

Those sounded like fun swings !!!

I would again say this is the spinhook pattern, not that this is not a big improvement and it certainly can be successful.It is NOT a high level pattern, nor do I believe it is on the road to the "mlb" swing.The lack of separation does mean that timing adjustment will continue to be a challenge. This is not the sort of thing where you are just temporarily off because you are so much quicker than you used to be.There is a limitation on how adjustable timing can be in the absence of adequate sepration. This limit may still be OK for fastpitch with hot bats. It does not appear to be an option for successful MLB/woodbat swings (pattern is not seen in video of successful mlb players).

One finding that stands out in these clips is the lack of "shoulder tilt". She is indeed doing what you have described which is adjusting by torso tilt rather than the late tilting of the shoulders seen in the MLB "drop and tilt" action.

This tilt of the shoulders at the same time that the heel is being dropped by middle action ("initiating hips from front" as Epstein would say) is crucial for ongoing sepration/loading/resisting instead of just spinning the body segments together.

If you want to look more for the distinction between this and an "mlb swing" pattern, I would compare the shoulder action, especially from "tilt to contact" as well as other things I have mentioned over time.Also, remember the Mankin absolute which is that you always want the shoulders to keep turning until contact (similar to Nyman "model" where shoulders turn until a slight pause at contact).

[Erik]

Fungo22,

I think Donny was referring to the absence of Ohfor, Teacherman, Infopimp, etc. over the last few days. That's my guess anyway. :confused:

Donny, he is probably busy working on Steve's new website! :atthepc

Joe


What is the name of Steve's site?



EL

[Ursa Major]

I understand it's still under construction. I don't know what his policy will be on accepting advertising, Erik.

[swingbuster]

It's been awhile but I think Paul was clear in the need for the lead arm to be completely in the swing plane. As to tht, from early on, my point was it does not do what Jack says it does which is to supply significant energy to the bat. More later. Good conversation.

MArk..you can get your lead elbow down and rear elbow up and let somebody comeup like Epstein shows and take their hands and reverse your elbow positions and the hands apply forces to the bat handle in opposite directions. That is THT and BHT or just handle torque. One cannot apply torque with one hand by definition. That is why the lead elbow must be DOWN...so it can come up and supply the opposite force. That is what stops top hand dominace

[swingbuster]

I removed the link...no problem.

[Mark H]

MArk..you can get your lead elbow down and rear elbow up and let somebody comeup like Epstein shows and take their hands and reverse your elbow positions and the hands apply forces to the bat handle in opposite directions. That is THT and BHT or just handle torque. One cannot apply torque with one hand by definition. That is why the lead elbow must be DOWN...so it can come up and supply the opposite force. That is what stops top hand dominace

I guess that works for you. You suppose there might be another way? ;)

In any case, tht has zip to do with batspeed in the manner Jack say it does but hey, it's his marketing hook.

[ssarge]

I would again say this is the spinhook pattern, not that this is not a big improvement and it certainly can be successful.It is NOT a high level pattern, nor do I believe it is on the road to the "mlb" swing.The lack of separation does mean that timing adjustment will continue to be a challenge.
I see the hips starting a frame ahead of the shoulders in the first swing, Tom. And maybe half a frame in the second swing. How much more separation do you advocate?


One finding that stands out in these clips is the lack of "shoulder tilt". She is indeed doing what you have described which is adjusting by torso tilt rather than the late tilting of the shoulders seen in the MLB "drop and tilt" action.

This tilt of the shoulders at the same time that the heel is being dropped by middle action ("initiating hips from front" as Epstein would say) is crucial for ongoing sepration/loading/resisting instead of just spinning the body segments together.
Well, maybe. If so, it is ironic. Because I think the lack of optimal momentum - and consequently leaving her weight on her back leg - is the root cause of her obvious shoulder plane problems in the swings.
And her weight is on her back leg because in game swings, she reverts to a familiar pattern. Which is Epstein mechanics, honed by tens of thousands of reps. Her practice swings do not typically reveal this pattern - she better develops momentum, her weight is pretty consistently on the front side, and she is up on the rear toes.

(There is more shoulder tilt - probably because there is less weight on the back leg - in the first swing than in the second.) The lack of momentum transfer IS a problem in both swings.

On these swings, I think she sub-consciously avoids shoulder tilt, because given the weight on her back foot, shoulder tilt would have led to a couple of major league popups rather than a couple of seeds.

In fact, in today's game, she had a similar problem on a swing. I would say this may have been as hard as she ever hit a ball. At LEAST 100 feet in the air, and it grazed the 200' left field fence on the way down. Probably should have been caught, though it hit the fence untouched and was a double. Probably a foot away from a HR (would have put her in the solo lead in the HS league), but w/ any kind of decent trajectory, it would have been out by 50 feet.

Same problem, lack of momentum transfer, reversion to a back footed swing, and consequent shoulder plane problems. As problems go, she may be fortunate. A lot of thigs are also going right. But there is definitely something to be enhanced, here. And we're working on it. Don't see it as much in practice, but definitely sometimes see the reversion pattern in games. This is frustrating when attempting to fix a problem.

It is ironic that you see Epstein mechanics as the answer to her problems, and I see their residule as the probable cause.

Regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

I guess that works for you. You suppose there might be another way?

In any case, tht has zip to do with batspeed in the manner Jack say it does but hey, it's his marketing hook.

I never felt like Jack had a marketing hook personally. Handle torque as HG says does exist but as I said it is both hands in concert. It takes two hands as he adequately described it but people said there was NOT THT . They were right..they had to exist together. There is no THT without BHT.

Handle torque cannot be optimized without some bat plane adjustment from vertical to horizontal


THere are limits to a player's ability to turn in one plane. Hard work can take them higher for sure. I saw a guy on TV pull a semi with his teeth. Impressive but not practical for everybody. Resisitance at the top half can increase the ability to turn.

As a mechanism, handle torque, does lots to batspeed because the hands are locked back for a moment getting more natural torso priming.

There is forearm stretch / fireback energy there too.

I will shorten a Tom quote so you keep your attention longer....

This torquing of the bat provides a force that keeps the shoulder back longer until the untwisting works its way up the torso.(also keeps hinge angle from getting too narrow and lots of other good stuff, not just a "running start").




The posse was told to dismiss it as Jack was the " bad guy". THere is much good going on in plane transition that has been buried but it won't stay buried because the pro players all dig it up faster than you can shovel dirt on it

[swingbuster]

In fact, in today's game, she had a similar problem on a swing. I would say this may have been as hard as she ever hit a ball. At LEAST 100 feet in the air, and it grazed the 200' left field fence on the way down. Probably should have been caught, though it hit the fence untouched and was a double. Probably a foot away from a HR (would have put her in the solo lead in the HS league), but w/ any kind of decent trajectory, it would have been out by 50 feet.

Same problem, lack of momentum transfer, reversion to a back footed swing, and consequent shoulder plane problems. As problems go, she may be fortunate. A lot of thigs are also going right. But there is definitely something to be enhanced, here. And we're working on it. Don't see it as much in practice, but definitely sometimes see the reversion pattern in games. This is frustrating when attempting to fix a problem

You are speaking about one of two adjustments I have tried to make this year. It is hell to try to put momentm transfer back into previous no stride hitters. Your description about her ball flight is dead on. How many more HRs would be have with weight shift. When stride/ weight shift became a dirty and replaced by momentum transfer a new problem set arose.

I have hitters stand facing me and hold their arms horizontal. I say " are you balanced ...yes / yes now, cross your chest with your lead arm". I then hand them a bat. I say " are you balanced? well no. The I say pull on the bat..are you balanced now...no"

Where is the new balance point? I point to the inside of the lead thigh. That is where you must get at launch. They seem to get the need to shift the COG to the launch balance point. Hinging the back knee with weight still on it, collapses the rear shoulder and sends the ball UP

Power and carry is inside out approach, more separation, weight shift,and I hate to admit it...backspin or at least no top spin.

You can get the rotation thing going in kids minds too much to the point that you need to call Charlie Lau to fix it all.

[ssarge]

You are speaking about one of two adjustments I have tried to make this year. It is hell to try to put momentm transfer back into previous no stride hitters. Your description about her ball flight is dead on. How many more HRs would be have with weight shift. When stride/ weight shift became a dirty and replaced by momentum transfer a new problem set arose.
There may have been more HRs to date, which would be cool. Ultimately, I am more interested in how many there are in the future. Meaning that the developmental process is a long-term consideration. Certainly, you have to demonstrate enough initial success to be allowed a continuing forum to play. Assuming that given, the task is how most efficiently to get from point A to point B.


I understand that you think the stride is the issue. In my judgment, it is not her issue.

With or without a stride, it is the same problem set. The problem is simply more apparent in a no-strider.

The tasks are to create momentum (NOT weight shift) and to efficiently transfer it into rotation keyed by the body center.

Nothing "dirty" about accomplishing these tasks w/ a stride - assuming it is used properly. Rarely IS it used properly.


Anyway, both are difficult objectives.

Doing BOTH together is a very difficult objective.

VERY few of the world's hitters do both tasks well. In fact, few of them do either well.


Most elite hitters stride. Not all, but most. ALL elite hitters create momentum and transfer it efficiently into rotational force using the body center (not the feet and legs).


Whether it is easier to learn to do those things in the developmental process by utilizing a stride is debatable. I do think it is easier to "fake" doing both those things by using a stride in the developmental process. False sense of security.


Regardless, I applaud any effort to teach young hitters to create momentum, and to efficiently rotate.


I would point out that there IS a difference between wight shift and the development of momentum, though. Momentum transfer is not a euphemism for weight shift. There are important distinctions.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Hinging the back knee with weight still on it, collapses the rear shoulder and sends the ball UP
Yes, it does. But hinging the knee w/ no weight on it fails to set plane.

This paradox is the problem that Epstein has to deal with. I read Tom's explanations, but I can't reconcile it. I am more concerned w/ how to overcome it in a kid (mine) who cut her teeth doing it.

Definitely making progress in most practice swings, and in some game swings. There is a reversion pattern sometimes in the live setting.

Scott

[LClifton]

Yes, it does. But hinging the knee w/ no weight on it fails to set plane.
Scott, in your search for setting the plane (ours too) what do you find are the contributors to setting a good plane?
For us we concentrate on the shoulders, (with the assumption of good posture.)
Do you guys work something different?
Definitely making progress in most practice swings, and in some game swings. There is a reversion pattern sometimes in the live setting.
Yes there is a reversion. Takin' it to the game....elusive at times. I speak from experience.:D

Sincerely,
LClifton

[Ursa Major]

editing your post #100? Please PM me if you did not. Thanks.

[FlippJ]

Did you let the cat out of the bag Ursa? :)

Jason

[Mark H]

I never felt like Jack had a marketing hook personally. Handle torque as HG says does exist but as I said it is both hands in concert. It takes two hands as he adequately described it but people said there was NOT THT . They were right..they had to exist together. There is no THT without BHT.

You are mischaracterizing Jack's definitions.








The posse was told to dismiss it as Jack was the " bad guy". THere is much good going on in plane transition that has been buried but it won't stay buried because the pro players all dig it up faster than you can shovel dirt on it

You both mischaracterize our position while at the same time making a mountain out of your molehill. Just go get on a plane and come to Houston.

[swingbuster]

Just go get on a plane and come to Houston.

As soon as he can hit a ball further with one hand than he can with two hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swingbuster
I never felt like Jack had a marketing hook personally. Handle torque as HG says does exist but as I said it is both hands in concert. It takes two hands as he adequately described it but people said there was NOT THT . They were right..they had to exist together. There is no THT without BHT.


You are mischaracterizing Jack's definitions.

Then do you agree with my amendments to Jack's findings. Is it true as restated in your opinion

[Mark H]

You are speaking about one of two adjustments I have tried to make this year. It is hell to try to put momentm transfer back into previous no stride hitters..

Perhaps you mean momentum development. In any case, no stride hitting does not equate to lack of momentum development or transfer unless of course you teach it that way as, for instance, Epstein does.






Your description about her ball flight is dead on. How many more HRs would be have with weight shift. When stride/ weight shift became a dirty and replaced by momentum transfer a new problem set arose. .


Weight shift is the incorrect term you are using when you mean momentum development. Momentum development can be accomplished with or without a "stride". Stride, weight shift if you insist or momentum development if you want to be descriptively correct are not and have never been a dirty word. You really need to get on a plane and come to Houston.





I have hitters stand facing me and hold their arms horizontal. I say " are you balanced ...yes / yes now, cross your chest with your lead arm". I then hand them a bat. I say " are you balanced? well no. The I say pull on the bat..are you balanced now...no


Where is the new balance point? I point to the inside of the lead thigh. That is where you must get at launch. They seem to get the need to shift the COG to the launch balance point. Hinging the back knee with weight still on it, collapses the rear shoulder and sends the ball UP".


Balance is another incorrectly used term in this context. Good momentum transfer with good posture does NOT result in "balance".




Power and carry is inside out approach,".


Are you trying to say keep the hinge angle and stay connected to produce a well timed hook?




more separation,".


When and how and how much? Is more separation the key or is linking each segment at it's greatest rotational velocity the key?




weight shift,....


Weight can be shifted without producing squat. It's momentum development or IOW, mass in motion which is an entirely different thing than "weight shift".







]

[Mark H]

As soon as he can hit a ball further with one hand than he can with two hands.

That's got to be your weakest rejoinder and excuse yet.



Then do you agree with my amendments to Jack's findings. Is it true as restated in your opinion

Jack made the world understand the handpath was not straight to the ball. God bless him for that. At one time I preached his stuff well enough he emailed me and thanked me for an accurate explanation and defense of his teachings on some other website so I got them down pat years ago. But that was yesterday's news and I don't see much value in going there again.

[ssarge]

For us we concentrate on the shoulders, (with the assumption of good posture.)
Do you guys work something different?

Loren:

Nothing different.

I used to be very concerned w/ attempting to match swing plane and pitch path exactly.

Now I am concerned w/ using posture to get the plane reasonably close to pitch path, but more importantly, to insure connection of the bat to the torso and a parallel between shoulder plane and bat plane. Plan to work on that next week (Spring Break) w/ Kelly as a matter of fact. Using some drills from Steve's CD.

Regards,

Scott