Att: Catchers! [Archive] - Baseball Fever

BearsCoach13

04-07-2006, 07:05 PM

Hello all. I'm new to these forums and I'd like to introduce myself. Over the last month or so, I've been reading many of your posts and I have to say, there are some very knowledgable people in here.

Without doing a detailed search of the forum, I don't see much discussion regarding catchers or pitcher/catcher interaction.

Anyway, I'll be around if anyone wants to talk catching.

This is a game to be savored, not gulped. There's time to discuss everything between pitches or between innings. ~Bill Veeck

XFactor

04-07-2006, 08:19 PM

There were actually 3-5 catching threads, I'd say maybe around page 4-10, I'd suggest looking there...

Jake Patterson

04-07-2006, 08:22 PM

Without doing a detailed search of the forum, I don't see much discussion regarding catchers or pitcher/catcher interaction. [/I]

Coach Weaver from NH is a catching coach. He's on every once in a while.

CoachZee

04-08-2006, 06:02 PM

Here is a clip of a catcher I'd like for you to comment on for footwork, ball transfer, etc.

I'll refer to her as catcher 1

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/1450/catcher18wq.th.gif (http://img371.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catcher18wq.gif)

you may have to click on the thumbnail to see the actual video.

CoachZee

04-08-2006, 06:11 PM

Here is catcher 2. I'm looking to improve their pop to pop times.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/381/catcher21yn.th.gif (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catcher21yn.gif)
you may have to click on the picture to see the video

MrUniverse09

04-08-2006, 06:34 PM

From what I can tell catcher #2 needs a lot more burst and quickly get up into her throwing stance. She seems to be almost casually standing up. Has to be explosive.

tadlock11

04-08-2006, 09:50 PM

catcher #1 seems to have a really nice transfer and footwork. #2 was a little choppy/not as smooth in the transfer. On that, I'm not sure about FP/SB but am curious about the mitts they use having any different effect with ball transfer.
My son is also a catcher and I'll try and get video on him to get some help. I think he's fairly good for a 10 year old.
Back to your catchers. On pitches from center to glove side of catcher do you employ a jump pivot or stay with a straight pivot?

Sove drills we work on (don't know if they have a 'proper' name) but besides basic blocking drills, we work on the ball transfer by doing one knee drills, he'll recieve the ball, sweep the glove while making transfer and be closing hips/shoulders to partner and make throw. We work on foot work by doing the following: I'll sit on a bucket/chair/ground with a dozen or so balls about 12' (or so) in front of a fence. He'll be squatted (in the "up" position) about fifteen feet from me. I throw, he recieves and depending on location, either pivots (center to throwing hand side) or jump pivots and throws into the fence. This way it stresses more the importance of footwork instead of location (which comes with other drills). One problem I've seen with using the jump pivot is that sometimes he'll turn (or close) to second base like a pole is running up through him - in other words his right foot (right handed fielder) jumps backwards. We loose ground this way.
Sorry for the rambling but would love to hear what some of you all do. to work on transfer/footwork/accuracy/velocity/quickness etc. Thanks.

Ohfor

04-08-2006, 10:14 PM

How's this?

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/2/catchingsidebysideinside.gif

4for4

04-08-2006, 10:35 PM

How's this?

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/2/catchingsidebysideinside.gif

The guy on the right is way better.

LClifton

04-08-2006, 10:48 PM

Load the scap and you'll have it.
LClifton

p.s. got a restaurant report for you.

Ohfor

04-08-2006, 10:58 PM

I have a torn rotator cuff and can't raise my arm to throw properly without quite a bit of pain.

This clip was to demonstrate two different sets of footwork. My right foot never moves. Pudge does the jump/pivot thingy.

Curious about the restaurant. Please advise.

LClifton

04-08-2006, 11:33 PM

CoachZee

04-09-2006, 07:01 AM

Actually ohfor I like the video, very well done.

Coach Zee,
I would be happy to comment. Could I ask first.....
What age are these catchers and what is their glove to glove time?

LClifton

p.s. they look pretty sharp.

Catcher one is a HS JR playing 16U. Her times are 2.16 to 2.2 I was hoping to help her get somewhere close to 2.0 so college coaches would notice her more.

This was obviously done is a gym. A game situation may bring a little more sense of urgency too.

Catcher two is still eligible for 14U but playing up with us. Her time is about 2.25 She is young but a great athlete and great attitude. Just hoping to improve her time a little seeing she is playing against older competition.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 07:54 AM

Catcher one is pretty dang good. I teach that the right foot should not move. It doesn't have to move. And, anyone who talks to you about creating some momentum by so doing, isn't really informed. Read Dixon.

She can pick up a fraction by learning to not move it. She probably feels she needs to move it, to generate some momentum. But, what is really happening is she's losing her balance by reaching for the ball. If she'd catch the ball against her chest (much deeper than she is currently) she wouldn't lose the balance, therefore, wouldn't be forced to reset her feet.

In the clip of me above, I'm demonstrating a catch of a pitch to my extreme glove side. Obviously, that pitch can't be caught close to the chest. But, notice how I don't let it affect my balance. I still don't move my right foot. This is a very subtle issue with catching.

Here is a pitch to the extreme throwing arm side. Again, the foot doesn't have to move. If done properly, you will be able to load your body vertically and keep the vertical load while doing what you have to do to catch the ball and then unload that vertical load at the right time.

http://teachersbilliards.nstemp.com/2/Outsidepitch1.gif

Notice that even though I am reaching for these pitches I never lose the balance over my right foot. I'm keeping the load while still doing what I have to do to catch the ball.

Keeping the load is key. Catching requires you to move to many spots and still perform. Good catchers learn to adjust to pitches while maintaining their load. If you ever give up the load to get to a ball, then have to reload, you're done.

Finally, this clip shows it pretty well. I'm unloading (a littlle) before I catch the ball, and a lot before transfer. Learn to do this and that pop time will go down.

dannyboy

04-09-2006, 08:17 AM

Ohfor,

Your information sounds very logical.

I know very little about catching (some, but not all the nuances).
Could you please give a sequential primer (steps to take) on decreasing pop-time? Would like to pass it on/see if it would help our catchers).

BearsCoach13

04-09-2006, 08:46 AM

In response to the question about the two softball catchers...

For catcher #1 the answer to cutting a few tenths of a second from her glove to glove times starts with her receiving of the ball. If you watch the clip closely, she drops the ball out of the strike zone after catching it. This increases the distance the ball must travel to get to the transfer position and lowers the transfer point. In this clip her transfer position looks to be the waist where the ideal position for transfering the ball to the throwing hand is the chest. Have her work on sticking her pitches (strikes) and raking the ball from the receiving spot to the transfer spot. A to B and not A to C to B. Her footwork looks good.

For catcher #2
She'll get quicker as she physically develops. A couple of things I see in this video. She seems to too anxious to come out of her stance early. Unless she knows the pitch is a ball she needs to stay in the ready position longer to give the umpire a chance to call the pitch. The transfer looks good. Her stride is bothering me though. She is not aligning her hips to the target which is causing her to stride open. A person who strides open throws with all arm and doesn't utilize the full body torque. This results in a weaker throw and a less accurate throw. One last thing about her mechanics. This may be a direct result of her striding open...her finish is up and to the left instead of low and through the target (catcher #1 stays low and through the target).

As for the different throwing styles...use whatever is comfortable. Many times it depends on the pitch location. But, that can be a whole thread to itself. Anyway, this is just what I observed from the clips presented.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 09:34 AM

Guess what folks? Catching is a middle out movement just like hitting. When these girls learn to control their middle, load it properly (vertically especially) the transfer and release will be there.

#1 is pretty darn good. Definately "in the ball park".

As long as you're talking "put your hands here" or "transfer here" you'll never get there. Why? Because the pitch location has every thing to do with where your receive the ball. Where you receive the ball has everything to do with where and how it can be transfered.

The only common thing on each pitch is to control your middle so you can do what the task requires.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 09:36 AM

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 10:51 AM

If you look at the two girls one thing that is very obvious to the differnce in their pop times is one girl catches then throws. The other girl throws then catches. A play on words but definately worth a .1 or .2.

You have to start throwing before you catch.

BearsCoach13

04-09-2006, 11:01 AM

Ohfor, I agree with your comments about learning to control your middle. That is an important basic concept every catcher needs to know.

However, catcher #1 has a good grasp of "controling her middle", so she needs to cut down on any extraneous movements. Transfer position has everything to do with having a quicker time. Compare Pudge's transfer position in his clip to your clips. He does not bring the ball down to his waist or lower. The reason is...its slower. The movement is not as efficient.

And yes I know that the clips are in synch. Contribute that to a number of things...rendering the file, manipulation, whatever. I too can be as quick as Pudge when I'm trying to be quick and flick a ball 15 feet into netting.

Watch every major league catcher. You will NEVER see a good throwing major league catcher loop the ball down below the waist then up into the throwing position. It is always a minimization of movement.

Pitch location doesn't matter. All that matters is getting to the loaded position as quickly as possible.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 11:18 AM

First of all, I'm 51 yrs old. I am not near as quick as I once was.

But you are grossly misinformed if you think I can't be as quick as I am and throw the ball all the way to second base. The 15 foot net has nothing to do with it.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 11:19 AM

Pitch location doesn't matter.

....to a well schooled catcher that knows how to manipulate his center to allign itself with the task.

If they don't know that, pitch location kills them.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 11:28 AM

Also, too much is made of the hand path on the transfer. Not that it can't be wrong or that it can't be to improved.

I can transfer real quick and not be in position to throw. (straight path A to B) No benefit gained. Then, I can be in position to throw and transfer later than someone else and have the better pop time. The transfer does not have to be made until just before the throw is due. The throw is due when the body has done it's thing.

You can be smooth at it, while the body is positioning itself, in other words, transfer during the throw, or you can be mecanical, transfer then throw.

The body takes x amount of time to position itself to throw. You have x-y to get the ball transfered. You benefit nothing if it is transfered before x-y. That is smooth v mechanical.

What is important is how long it takes to get the body into the throwing position. Everyone has an amount of time they need. Of course, it needs to be short as possible. But, if you transfer the ball and haven't gotten into position you still have gained nothing.

Someone commented on cathcer #1 looking smooth. She does look pretty smooth. Take away her stutterstep and she's real smooth. But she looks smooth because her body is performing "one task"......that one task is....get rid of the ball as quickly as she can with as much on it as she can.

She is not mechanical looking like catcher #2. Why? Catcher #2 does not have a "one move" technique. If fact, I venture to say whoever taught her to transfer (maybe no one; might just be how she's done it forever) did her no favor. She clearly has a transfer, then throw technique. It will never develop as high a pop time as if she learned to have "one move".

It is almost entirely in your center.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 02:14 PM

CoachZee

04-09-2006, 04:23 PM

CoachZee

The young girl really needs some help with her throwing mechanics. Almost no rotation at all.

Would also like to see a longer clip of #1. I suspect some problems with her rotation/follow through.

The problem with a longer clip is that I can't upload it to a site that will accept a larger file. I can also give you a front view if you prefer. I've been a little sick this weekend so I'll see if I can get something posted or at least give you a link to download a clip.

I really appreciate you comments. #2 is our back up catcher but is an absolute joy to coach and gives 110% all the time. #1 will age out at the end of the year (we have a young team) so #2 will become #1. I can teach some basics of catching but the details I need help on so I really appreciate this.

Ohfor

04-09-2006, 04:30 PM

Can you make a new clip that shows the last part of the throw. Get rid of the catch and transfer and show the rest through follow through?

tadlock11

04-09-2006, 09:10 PM

Here's a few clips of my son working a little this fall as we prepared for the spring season. He is 10, this is his second year to be a catcher. I would greatly appreciate any advise or tips. Thanks.
http://www.esnips.com/doc/888482e3-da09-48bd-8e97-b94112af4996/COLTjumpshift.wmv
http://www.esnips.com/doc/cd2d1c07-6f4d-4c8a-bba7-90f3e1063149/COLTpivot.wmv

CoachZee

04-10-2006, 01:34 PM

Can you make a new clip that shows the last part of the throw. Get rid of the catch and transfer and show the rest through follow through?

Here it is:

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/3844/catcher2a5jn.th.gif (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=catcher2a5jn.gif)

Imapotato

04-10-2006, 02:32 PM

The one thing I see on Catcher #1

Her right foot goes outward...when it should slide to be centered...the difference in accuracy is 10 fold when your right foot is centerted on home plate

The 2nd Catcher is letting her left leg be dominant, as you can see from her right foot rising on the follow through...that is a big no go...

Both Catchers are too upright...that leads to high throws...crouch and throw...it may kill some velocity, but you want to constantly place the throw on the corner of 2nd, so that the person covering only has to move their glove 6 inches or less to apply a tag

LClifton

04-11-2006, 05:31 PM

Catcher one is a HS JR playing 16U. Her times are 2.16 to 2.2 I was hoping to help her get somewhere close to 2.0 so college coaches would notice her more.

This was obviously done is a gym. A game situation may bring a little more sense of urgency too.

Catcher two is still eligible for 14U but playing up with us. Her time is about 2.25 She is young but a great athlete and great attitude. Just hoping to improve her time a little seeing she is playing against older competition.
Coach Zee, I ask a question and then take forever to get back to you.
I think the comments given here are very good so I wouldn't have much to add except this:
When the girls catch the ball, to speed things up a bit, they can take the glove and roll their palm toward their throwing hand to facilitate (just a fraction quicker) getting the ball into their throwing hand. They will get the feeling of the glove hand "giving" with the pitch. It will feel like they are turning their glove as the ball is arriving. (timing this will be accomplished thru repetition)
Also, with many good catchers you will see a quick rolling/turning of the shoulders.
Ohfor said it like this: They catch and then throw, rather than throw and then catch.
I think I'm trying to say this same thing in a different way.
AS the ball approaches they move their shoulders to a more closed position,
(left shoulder blade toward 2nd base) (effectively loading) to prepare to throw. So, when the ball gets there they are already in a good position to unload / rotate their shoulders to execute the throw.
A very good example of this is Emily Zaplatosh from UCLA.

Keep up the good work and let us know how they progress.
Maybe Fungo will weigh in here, as his home-run hitting son is a catcher.:)

Sincerely,
LClifton

Ursa Major

04-11-2006, 07:01 PM

Tadlock11 said: Here's a few clips of my son working a little this fall as we prepared for the spring season. He is 10, this is his second year to be a catcher. I would greatly appreciate any advise or tips. Thanks.Hey, Tad, I don't want your son's efforts to be lost in the shuffle, and I know more about 10 y/o boys' baseball than older girls' softball. The kid's jump pivot is pretty good for that age, and it's obvious he's got a pretty good arm. If he's serious about catching, he should develop a catcher's throwing motion: up to the ear, hand over ball, snap forward with a lot of backspin (to help give it carry and a truer bounce if it is low).

The pivot throw represents a more real world situation: trying to throw when the pitch isn't perfect. However, here he's obviously just throwing back to somebody 30 to 40 feet away. If he's going to throw it the 84 feet required in Little League, he'll need more.

I agree with Ohfor to the extent that he talks about throwing from the middle. Even though the hands stay up, the kid has to be balanced and centered enough to close his hips and rotate with good balance. While Ohfor's "don't move the right foot" advice may work for teenagers, a 10 y/o who doesn't get centered will throw the ball away 4 times out of 5. Since his league presumably doesn't allow leadoffs, anyone going on a straight steal should be dead with a good throw from his kind of arm, so he should focus on getting in position for it rather than just heaving it. So, on a pitch to the glove side, he may need to slide his right foot underneath him as he sets to throw.

Two thoughts on the girls' throws. First, make sure that, in game situations, they don't come up too soon. Our catcher got hit twice with catcher's interference calls doing that this weekend. (It was cute seeing him trying to pretend he hadn't interfered with his glove rolled around in front of home plate.) Second, as noted above, the catchers should try to get their hands on top of the ball to get a little snap to it; I assume that you can still do that with softballs.

tadlock11

04-11-2006, 08:33 PM

Thanks UM, do you have any slo-mo/close-up clips of catchers throwing motion? I was thinking that his throwing motion from catching had affected his throwing from the field. Is it possible that when a 10YO catches most of the time, then occasionally plays IF or OF, has some kind of lingering throwing cross-up? I am curious because it appears has lost his "regular" throwing motion.

fungo22

04-12-2006, 12:16 AM

I'm not sure whether anyone has pointed it out, but the catcher in Ohfor's clip (the one on the left with the catcher's gear on) is Ivan Rodriguez. It will be a long time before there is another better model for throwing to bases than him. I don't want to get into a debate with the old fossils about Johnny Bench, but Rodriguez is arguably the best there has ever been. I suggest you measure everything you've ever heard about throwing to 2B against what you see Pudge doing in this clip.

Does he stand up or crouch? Why?

Does he jump pivot or reverse pivot without moving his back foot? Why?

Does he throw by his ear or does he have an arm angle pretty much perpendicular to his spine? Why?

Is his front foot planted before he rotates or does he rotate "into foot plant"?

My opinion: As in hitting, throwing to a base is a matter of "bio-mechanical efficiency." The most important, most fundamental things have been mentioned: load and unload the middle as the engine driving the throw and synchrozie arm action and scap load to the "rotation from the middle." As in hitting, I trying to create a mental image of a segmental "whip." The ass is the whip handle and the hand is the tip. Get the ass out to create a more efficient lever and "whip" the ball from the middle of the body. Get the elbow up so that the "ass whip" rotates the shoulders and loads the scap. Practice synchronizing unloading of the middle, loading scap and unloading scap. Bow the back a little so that the arm angle can be higher so that he/she can "get on top of the ball" as much as possible - but so that the arm angle can still be perpendicular to the spine as much as possible. Leg work and "crouch" should support the quick loading/unloading of the middle.

Don't just float the ball down there with a quarterback style throw beside the ear. Learn to throw hard quickly.

On the other hand, float the ball back to the pitcher so you don't wear your arm/elbow out, show them up, or hit the morons in the head with the ball.

Once again, my opinion.

Ursa Major

04-12-2006, 12:23 AM

Tadlock said: ...do you have any slo-mo/close-up clips of catchers throwing motion? I couldn't find any offhand. I think the clip above is pretty representative of high level throws.

By the way, I can't recall if you were involved with any of the threads with "CatchingCoach" -- aka Dave Weaver, who runs the New England Catching Camp. He seemed very savvy; much more so than I despite my four years of catching experience.

His thread on catcher throwing can be found here:
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=39146

His camp's web site has some good throwing tips here:
http://www.catchingcamp.com/throw2nd.htm

I was thinking that his throwing motion from catching had affected his throwing from the field. Is it possible that when a 10YO catches most of the time, then occasionally plays IF or OF, has some kind of lingering throwing cross-up? I am curious because it appears has lost his "regular" throwing motion.Can you be more explicit? I tend to think a catching motion can be good for kids at that age, because it forces them to throw overhand, which is what they ought to be doing in most instances at other positions. My son plays mostly third base and loved to do those sidearm flips that he sees Eric Chavez do. When he started being coached on his pitching and catching to throw overhand and saw the superior zip he got on the ball that way, he started throwing that way from third and discovered that at 85% velocity (my estimate) he had plenty of zip on the ball, and was much more accurate because he didn't have to ooomph it over to first.

However, I can see that it might truncate or hurry their throwing motion. I'm a big believer (from the teachings of A's infield coach Ron Washington, that a big part of infielding is rhythm, and catchers don't have the luxury of moving to the ball in a way that establishes a rhythm. Still, I wouldn't "blame" it on the catching. Top level kids are usually the catcher and one other important position on 9-10 y/o leagues; they have to figure out how to adjust to the differing positions. Drill 'em on proper infielding footwork enough and they should be able to make the move back and forth.

fungo22

04-12-2006, 12:31 AM

do you have any slo-mo/close-up clips of catchers throwing motion? Download the Rodriguez/Ohfor clip. Open it up with Quicktime. Drag the slide and view it frame by frame. You can do this at any speed. It is a great clip. Thanx again, Ohfor. Got any more?

Ohioteamz

04-12-2006, 12:51 AM

I have been watching the pudge throw, after reading Scott's thread.

I am certain when pudge fires to 2nd, he has a ton of velocity on the throw. However I don't see the forearm going flat, or should I say parallel to the ground like you see with many pitchers.

I have a very difficult time getting my forearm to go flat as I have described, but it seems that is only important for pitchers, it isn't really true of position players, who are trying to balance the need to unload quickly with getting the body into the throw.