The Hall of Corrections, Election #1

[Freakshow]

It’s a crime that certain players are being left out of the Hall of Fame. This is the first in a series of polls to correct the situation.

Recently, we completed the Hall of Mistakes, identifying the bottom 15% among the players in the HOF. We finished by electing Rollie Fingers and Tony Lazzeri as the 33rd and 34th worst players enshrined. Here’s the entire roster of Mistakes:

C (2) - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
1B (2) - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
2B (4) - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski, Tony Lazzeri
3B (3) - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
SS (4) - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
LF (2) - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
CF (2) - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
RF (5) - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
P (10) - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers

Now, we want to figure out who should replace them. For this election, players must be currently eligible for the Cooperstown Hall, except we will ignore the ten year rule. Also, players from the National Association (1871-75) and previous to this should be considered. Negro leaguers and other players from Black baseball in North America are also eligible, of course. Players retired after 2000 (Ripken, Gwynn, Raines, Henderson, etc.) are not eligible. Players on MLB’s banned list (Rose, J. Jackson, Cicotte, Chase, etc.) and players whose entire career was in Japan (Kaneda, Oh, Nomura, etc.) are also ineligible.

We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, if you think Curt Flood or Lefty O’Doul’s off-the-field influences were enough to boost his playing career, vote for him. But only if you think his playing career comprises the majority of his overall contribution; this is a player’s election.

Here are some suggestions as to whom to focus on (* marks players in BBFHOF):

The top 16 also-rans in BBWAA balloting for 2006
Jim Rice
Rich Gossage*
Andre Dawson*
Bert Blyleven*
Lee Smith
Jack Morris
Tommy John
Steve Garvey
Alan Trammell*
Dave Parker
Dave Concepcion
Don Mattingly
Orel Hershiser
Dale Murphy
Albert Belle
Will Clark

The 2005 Veterans Committee Balloting, 25 Players
Ron Santo*
Gil Hodges
Tony Oliva
Jim Kaat
Joe Torre*
Maury Wills
Vada Pinson
Luis Tiant
Roger Maris
Marty Marion
Ken Boyer
Joe Gordon
Carl Mays
Minnie Minoso*
Dick Allen*
Curt Flood
Wes Ferrell
Mickey Lolich
Don Newcombe
Sparky Lyle
Elston Howard
Bobby Bonds
Rocky Colavito
Thurman Munson
Smoky Joe Wood

18 Pre-1920 Stars Elected to the Hall of Merit (arranged chronologically)
Dickey Pearce
Joe Start
Lip Pike
Ross Barnes
Cal McVey
Ezra Sutton
Deacon White*
Paul Hines*
Charlie Bennett
Hardy Richardson
George Gore
Harry Stovey
Jack Glasscock
Bob Caruthers
Bill Dahlen*
Jimmy Sheckard
Sherry Magee*
Heinie Groh

4 More Pre-1920 MLB Players, in the All-Timeline HOF but not in the Coop
Pete Browning
Tony Mullane
Jimmy Ryan
George Van Haltren

5 “Top” Negro Leagues Candidates
John Beckwith
Grant Johnson
Dick Lundy
Dobie Moore
Dick Redding

15 Victims of the 5% Rule, Not Yet Eligible for VC Election
Darrell Evans
Dwight Evans
Bobby Grich
Ron Guidry
Keith Hernandez
Fred Lynn
Graig Nettles
Al Oliver
Lance Parrish
Dan Quisenberry
Willie Randolph
Ted Simmons*
Ken Singleton
Rusty Staub
Lou Whitaker

17 Older Candidates Not Currently On VC Ballot
Tommy Bridges
Norm Cash
Cupid Childs
Larry Doyle
Bob Elliott
Bill Freehan
Stan Hack
Bob Johnson
Charlie Keller
Tommy Leach
Al Rosen
Wally Schang
Reggie Smith
Vern Stephens
Mickey Vernon
Bucky Walters
Jimmy Wynn

Let’s show the 100 players listed above by position:

P (21) – Blyleven, Bridges, Caruthers, Ferrell, Gossage, Guidry, Hershiser, John, Kaat, Lolich, Lyle, Mays, Morris, Mullane, Newcombe, Quisenberry, Redding, L. Smith, Tiant, Walters, J. Wood.
C (10) – Bennett, Freehan, Howard, McVey, Munson, Parrish, Schang, Simmons, Torre, D. White.
1B (9) – Allen, Cash, W. Clark, Garvey, Hernandez, Hodges, Mattingly, Start, Vernon.
2B (8) – Barnes, Childs, L. Doyle, Gordon, Grich, Randolph, H. Richardson, Whitaker.
3B (11) – Beckwith, K. Boyer, Elliott, Evans, Groh, Hack, Leach, Nettles, Rosen, Santo, Sutton.
SS (11) – Concepcion, Dahlen, Glasscock, G. Johnson, Lundy, Marion, D. Moore, Pearce, Stephens, Trammell, Wills.
LF (9) – Belle, Browning, B. Johnson, Keller, Magee, Minoso, Rice, Sheckard, Stovey.
CF (11) – Dawson, Flood, Gore, Hines, Lynn, Murphy, Oliver, Pike, Pinson, Van Haltren, Wynn.
RF(10) – Bonds, Colavito, Evans, Maris, Oliva, Parker, Ryan, Singleton, R. Smith, Staub.

Candidates are not restricted to these 100 of course. Nine players from the 64-Player VC Tournament that I ran a couple years back are not listed above: Urban Shocker, Gavy Cravath, Tommy Bond, Bobby Veach, Lon Warneke, Herman Long, Jack Fournier, Allie Reynolds, and Lave Cross. Some others who were close to the list were Wally Berger, Sal Bando, Frank Howard, Buddy Myer, Jim McCormick, Jack Quinn and Billy Pierce.

Voters should list their top ten selections in order. We'll elect three players each election for awhile. Points will be assigned this way: 12-11-10-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.

This is my list of the ten most deserving candidates for the Hall:

1. Bert Blyleven
2. Ron Santo
3. Minnie Minoso
4. Bill Dahlen
5. Bobby Grich
6. Paul Hines
7. Dick Allen
8. Rich Gossage
9. Alan Trammell
10.Deacon White

[ElHalo]

1. Sherry Magee
2. Joe Gordon
3. Gavvy Cravath
4. Tim Browning
5. Dick Allen
6. Harry Stovey
7. Ed Reulbach
8. Ron Santo
9. Goose Gossage
10. Deacon Phillippe

[Freakshow]

4. Tim Browning

Can I assume you mean Pete Browning, not Tom Browning?

[digglahhh]

Can I participate here even if I didn't participate in the Hall of Mistakes series of threads?

[538280]

We're going to see big variations on our lists here.....

1.Dick Allen
2.Ron Santo
3.Jimmy Wynn
4.Bobby Grich
5.Bert Blyleven
6.Bobby Bonds
7.Alan Trammell
8.Sal Bando
9.Sherry Magee
10.Heinie Groh

[Brad Harris]

1. Ron Santo
2. Dick Allen
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Alan Trammell
5. Minnie Minoso
6. Goose Gossage
7. Ken Boyer
8. Sherry Magee
9. Bobby Grich
10. Bill Dahlen

[The Dude]

1.Ron Santo
2.Dick Allen
3.Sherry Magee
4.Gavvy Cravath
5.Ted Simmons
6.Bert Blyleven
7.Minnie Minoso
8.Joe Gordon
9.Albert Belle
10.Goose Gossage

[leecemark]

1) Santo
2) Minoso
3) Ted Simmons
4) Gossage
5) Blyleven
6) Trammell
7) Kieth Hernandez
8) Dale Murphy
9) Dawson
10) Gordon
--note: I don't consider "best player" and "most deserving Hall of Famer" to always be the same thing. Having something extra on your resume has value to me as well, i.e. Minoso - first Black Latin, Gossage - best reliever ever, Hernandez - best defensive 1B ever. Living players also get the edge over those no longer with us. Best player is the single most important criteria, of course, but not the only one.

[RuthMayBond]

I don't know exactly how to rank them but I'd include
Allen
Blyleven
Gossage
Torre
Grich
Darrell Evans or Ron Santo
Dahlen
SMagee
Dawson
Dwight Evans

[Freakshow]

Can I participate here even if I didn't participate in the Hall of Mistakes series of threads?
Absolutely! I always say, the more ballots, the better the results.

[Freakshow]

I don't know exactly how to rank them but I'd include
Allen
Blyleven
Gossage
Torre
Grich
Darrell Evans or Ron Santo
Dahlen
SMagee
Dawson
Dwight Evans
I would encourage you to take a shot at ranking your top ten. If not ranked, it will be hard for me to include your ballot in the vote tally. And I don't allow any ties on ballots.

Here's an approach that might help. Decide on your ten guys. Then break them into three groups: top 3, middle 3, bottom 4. Then, rank them within these groups - roll dice, flip a coin, just rank 'em.

[RuthMayBond]

I don't know exactly how to rank them but I guess I'll go with

1) Dick Allen
2) Blyleven
3) Torre
4) Grich
5) SMagee
6) Darrell Evans
7) Dahlen
8) Dawson
9) Dwight Evans
10) Gossage

[jalbright]

One question: are Japanese players eligible for consideration?

A comment: "Hall of Corrections" sounds like a state government name for a prison--I'd suggest a different name.

Jim Albright

[KCGHOST]

1. Pete Browning
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Ron Santo
4. Minnie Minoso
5. Tommy Bridges
6. Rich Gossage
7. Allan Trammell
8. Lou Whitaker
9. Mike Tiernan
10. Quisenberry

I think we are making the same mistake as plagued the original HoF balloters. We are considering way too many players and this will lead, once again, to the 19th century guys being passed by.

[RuthMayBond]

1. Pete Browning
2. Bert Blyleven
3. Ron Santo
4. Minnie Minoso
5. Tommy Bridges
6. Rich Gossage
7. Allan Trammell
8. Lou Whitaker
9. Mike Tiernan
10. Quisenberry

I think we are making the same mistake as plagued the original HoF balloters. We are considering way too many players and this will lead, once again, to the 19th century guys being passed by.Who decides what is "too many players"? Tiernan wasn't much better if any than Strawberry and is almost certainly didn't have as good a career as DwEvans, Staub, Dawson, ReSmith, JClark, Parker, Baines, BoBonds, Singleton ...

[Freakshow]

One question: are Japanese players eligible for consideration?

From the rules:

"players must be currently eligible for the Cooperstown Hall...players whose entire career was in Japan (Kaneda, Oh, Nomura, etc.) are also ineligible."

I know you're the leading champion of JL players around here. But until the Coop allows them eligibility, I don't want to use them to replace the mistakes. Leave that to the BBFHOF.

A comment: "Hall of Corrections" sounds like a state government name for a prison--I'd suggest a different name.

Jim Albright

That's exactly why I named it that. We're a correctional institution, here to reform the HOF by bringing justice to these players. Get it?

Thanks for the feedback, Jim. Hope you join in.

[KCGHOST]

Who decides what is "too many players"? Tiernan wasn't much better if any than Strawberry and is almost certainly didn't have as good a career as DwEvans, Staub, Dawson, ReSmith, JClark, Parker, Baines, BoBonds, Singleton ...


RMB, what is your problem?? You vote for who you want and I will vote for whom I want. And be sure to vote for Raines who is specifically excluded from this election.

I wasn't saying we shouldn't consider all these players, I was saying we shouldn't consider all of them at once. This was a well documented problem in the voting by the BBWAA in the early years. Too many qualified candidates leads to splintered voting and no one getting elected.

[RuthMayBond]

And be sure to vote for Raines who is specifically excluded from this election.I'm sure you've got an explanation for this one

<I wasn't saying we shouldn't consider all these players, I was saying we shouldn't consider all of them at once. This was a well documented problem in the voting by the BBWAA in the early years. Too many qualified candidates leads to splintered voting and no one getting elected.>

Understood, but who decides who were going to consider each time? How do you want to narrow it down?

[julusnc]

1.Ron Santo
2.Sherry Magee
3.Minnie Minoso
4.Gavvy Cravath
5.Bert Blyleven
6.Dick Allen
7.Pete Browning
8.Goose Gossage
9.Joe Gordon
10.Albert Belle

[Freakshow]

I wasn't saying we shouldn't consider all these players, I was saying we shouldn't consider all of them at once. This was a well documented problem in the voting by the BBWAA in the early years. Too many qualified candidates leads to splintered voting and no one getting elected.
That's not really a concern here, since we're not requiring candidates to get 75% or some other magic number; we're electing the top vote-getter each election.

Having said that, the first election is more likely to be fragmented, as it tends to establish a pecking order. The thing to see now is that, through all the projects and polls at BBF, we already have done this.

For instance, I conducted the 500-Player Pyramid last year. From this, we can discern the top 21 non-HOFers as being:

5 Santo
5- Dawson
5- Murphy Dal
4+ Blyleven
4+ Gossage
4+ Grich
4+ Minoso
4 Allen
4 Dahlen #
4 Evans Dw
4 Gordon
4 Simmons T
4 Torre
4 Trammell
4 Whitaker
4 Wynn J
4- Boyer K
3+ Hernandez K
3+ Magee S
3+ Mays C
3+ Van Haltren #

Your own list will vary, of course. It's just to show one of countless ways to narrow things down to the top candidates.

[digglahhh]

Let's try this:

1. D. Allen
2. R. Santo
3. B. Blyleven
4. M. Minoso
5. K. Hernandez
6. J. Torre
7. A. Belle
8. G. Gossage
9. S. Magee
10. D. Murphy

[538280]

1) Dick Allen
2) Blyleven
3) Torre
4) Grich
5) SMagee
6) Darrell Evans
7) Dahlen
8) Dawson
9) Dwight Evans
10) Gossage

I hope you forgot Santo

[RuthMayBond]

I hope you forgot SantoI give Evans the teeniest edge over Santo (who was helped by his home park). It coulda gone either way. Maybe those walks are overvalued :confused: :noidea

[jalbright]

From the rules:

"players must be currently eligible for the Cooperstown Hall...players whose entire career was in Japan (Kaneda, Oh, Nomura, etc.) are also ineligible."

I know you're the leading champion of JL players around here. But until the Coop allows them eligibility, I don't want to use them to replace the mistakes. Leave that to the BBFHOF.

Thanks for the feedback, Jim. Hope you join in.

I've declined to participate in the Timeline project over a similar issue, so to be consistent, I must respectfully decline your invitation. I will watch this project with interest, as I have the Timeline project.

Jim Albright

[538280]

I give Evans the teeniest edge over Santo (who was helped by his home park). It coulda gone either way. Maybe those walks are overvalued :confused: :noidea

I assume you mean Darrell Evans?

If you do, then yeah, Santo was helped by his park but not really that much more than Evans. Evans got to play at the Lauching Pad early on and Tiger Stadium (which was tailor-made to his swing) later on. He did play in Candlestick in the middle, but overall I'd say he was helped by his parks significantly, maybe just a bit less than Santo.

And what about peak performance? Santo, by Win Shares and TPR (not sure about WARP) was the best player in the NL in the mid 60s. Evans' highest WS year was 1973, when he had 31, very low top season for a supposed HOFer. After that he drops down to 28.

[RuthMayBond]

I assume you mean Darrell Evans?

If you do, then yeah, Santo was helped by his park but not really that much more than Evans. Evans got to play at the Lauching Pad early on and Tiger Stadium (which was tailor-made to his swing) later on. He did play in Candlestick in the middle, but overall I'd say he was helped by his parks significantly, maybe just a bit less than Santo.

DaEvans Road 252/358/435 Home 243/356/431
(If that's "significant help" :crazy

I used to have Santo's splits :hp

[Erik Bedard]

Hmmm...

1. Allen
2. Santo
3. Blyleven
4. Dahlen
5. Grich
6. Gossage
7. Wynn
8. Dwight Evans
9. Darrell Evans
10. Murphy

[Brad Harris]

Looks like three guys are going to run away with this thing. Are we just "electing" one guy at a time?

KCGHOST, I understand what you're saying about too large a candidate pool; it's a daunting task. Had the powers-that-be thought of the idea earlier, when (in your opinion) would have been a better time to begin electing players into a Hall of Fame? What is a reasonably sized candidate pool? Players from a 15-yr span? A 30-yr span? A 50-yr span? Cooperstown started its elections in 1936 so you had players from 1876-1935 eligible in those elections. Of course they had that arbitrary 1900 cut-off. Isn't 1900-1935 a reasonable enough candidate pool? You'd think the old-timers would have had an easier job of identifying and agreeing on the best 19th century candidates.

[Freakshow]

Looks like three guys are going to run away with this thing. Are we just "electing" one guy at a time?
Well, that was my original plan, but I'm always open to changing horses in midstream, or at the edge of the stream in this case.

Our ultimate goal is 34 players. If we clear away three at a time for a few elections, we'll get the obvious picks out of the way. As long as we get ten or more ballots, I think that's a good way to go. Let's do three, for now.

[leecemark]

--Sounds good FS. Once we get the obvious guys out of the way it will get more interesting.

[KCGHOST]

[QUOTE=Chancellor]KCGHOST, I understand what you're saying about too large a candidate pool; it's a daunting task. Had the powers-that-be thought of the idea earlier, when (in your opinion) would have been a better time to begin electing players into a Hall of Fame? /QUOTE]

If we were to truly take the time we should go year by year and add the people who retire in that year to the candidate pool. On average 1.7 players are elected per year (so far about 215 players have been elected from a 125 year pool) so we shouldn't be confronted with having to elect more than 10 players from a given year. To avoid issues with that we could leave a player on the ballot for a few years so that they get more than one shot at getting in.

I don't know what would be the best year to start but the initial one might be for players who retired in 1890 and earlier.

Maybe I am making too much of this though. If we keep going as we are and keep having elections until no one get elected then maybe we are accomplishing just as much and doing it faster.

[STLCards2]

1. Bert Blyleven
2. Ron Santo
3. Goose Gossage
4. Bill Dahlen
5. Minnie Minnoso
6. Sherry Magee
7. Dick Allen
8. Tony Mullane
9. Pete Browning
10.Ted Simmons

11. Alan Trammel
12. Albert Belle
13. Dale Murphy
14. Bobby Grich
15. Andre Dawson
16. Dave Parker
17. Luis Tiant
18. Ken Boyer
19. Joe Gordon
20. Carl Mays

[Freakshow]

We have a clearcut verdict, so let's close out round one. Congratulations to Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven and Dick Allen, the first three players selected to replace the Coop's mistakes. We had a good turnout, 12 voters. Interestingly, no player was named on every ballot; Santo, Blyleven and Gossage each were left off one ballot. There were 35 different players who received mention.

Here are complete results for the first election:

Points Ballots 1st Pl. Top Ten
116 11 4 Ron Santo
99 11 2 Bert Blyleven
89 10 4 Dick Allen
61 8 0 Minnie Minoso
51 8 1 Sherry Magee
45 11 0 Rich Gossage
28 5 0 Bobby Grich
26 5 0 Bill Dahlen
25 4 1 Pete Browning
24 3 0 Gavy Cravath
the rest
22 5 0 Alan Trammell
17 4 0 Joe Gordon
17 3 0 Ted Simmons
15 2 0 Joe Torre
14 2 0 Jimmy Wynn
10 2 0 Keith Hernandez
7 3 0 Albert Belle
7 2 0 Darrell Evans
6 1 0 Tommy Bridges
5 3 0 Dale Murphy
5 2 0 Andre Dawson
5 2 0 Dwight Evans
5 1 0 Paul Hines
5 1 0 Harry Stovey
5 1 0 Bobby Bonds
4 1 0 Ed Reulbach
4 1 0 Ken Boyer
3 1 0 Sal Bando
3 1 0 Lou Whitaker
3 1 0 Tony Mullane
2 1 0 Mike Tiernan
1 1 0 Deacon White
1 1 0 Deacon Phillippe
1 1 0 Heinie Groh
1 1 0 Dan Quisenberry