Is it true about hitting?

[little_1_lady]

Is it true that when a batter goes to hit the ball, they should point to the ball with the knob before swinging to correctly hit in the target zone therefore getting a better hit?

It doesn't sound relevant to me, but I may have been doing it all along without knowing that I was doing it.

Also does anyone remeber the verbal cues they got when batting - something like stance, back, head swing or something. I remeber being told to get a good stance, shift my weight back while front heel comes up, keep my head down, while I swing and place front heel down while back comes up during swing - then run like the dickens to first base - not to wait to see where it went.

[Jake Patterson]

Is it true that when a batter goes to hit the ball, they should point to the ball with the knob before swinging to correctly hit in the target zone therefore getting a better hit?


Difficult to know where to start on how to help you. The answer to the question is no, but that won't help you much. I think you need to obtain some basic training. This can be done with tapes, books or a visit to a baseball company that specializes in training children. You could start with Little League's Al and Al program, although I would use this as a start only. I do not agree with their training methods for older children.

[little_1_lady]

As I was saying - I don't think it's true. I checked out another website & that's what they told me to do! Quite frankly I think it would not only confuse the kids, but also mess up their form therfore slowing their response time & causing them to strike or foul most pitches.

[Chris O'Leary]

Also does anyone remeber the verbal cues they got when batting - something like stance, back, head swing or something. I remeber being told to get a good stance, shift my weight back while front heel comes up, keep my head down, while I swing and place front heel down while back comes up during swing - then run like the dickens to first base - not to wait to see where it went.

The cues that I use with my 6 year-olds are...

1. Feet apart (shoulder width).

2. Hands all the way back.

3. Back elbow up.

I know that the whole back elbow up thing is the subject of furious debate, but I find that it more often than not helps little kids (at least). It seems to do three things...

1. It seems to make it much harder to hitch (to take the hands back toward catcher and then forward).

2. It makes it harder to wrap the bat around the head.

3. It also seems to have a psychological benefit; it seems to help them feel more ready.

I use these cues during game situations and they seem to work.

[Mark H]

Any cue any given day with any given kid can be golden. The important thing is YOU understand the difference between cues and reality. Of course then we have to discuss what is the preferred reality in terms of goals. Do we want to swing like MLB hitters or do we want to swing like Mike Marshall suggests. I don't know which side of that fence you are on where hitting is concerned.

[Ursa Major]

Following up on Mark's excellent point, teaching kids hitting, like teaching anything else, has to take into account where they're starting from. A cue often is used to overcome some flaw or deficiency; if they don't need it, don't use it. But if you throw the same list of "cues" at every kid, there will be too much to absorb. The "knob at the ball" cue works for very few kids, and at worse will have them develop into linear hitters sacrificing everything else to get the knob to the ball.

First, start with something they know -- an athletic stance, like they're guarding someone in basketball: you know, feet slightly more than shoulder width apart, weight on the balls of their feet. That puts them on familiar ground.

Second, rather than giving them cues, give them a visual concept they can aspire to. How's this: hold the bat so that the shoulders, front elbow, hands and bathead are all in a single plane, with the hands in front of and about four inches away from the rear shoulder. Then -- to swing -- turn the hips and have the rear shoulder turn with them and point toward where the ball likely will come. Don't think of the arms at all, as the hands should stay back with that rear shoulder longer than you think they should; let the rotation of the shoulders force the bathead around in the very same plane that you started with -- i.e., the shoulders and hands follow that front elbow around. Adjust for height by changing to pitch of the spine, not by reaching down or up for the ball with your arms or dipping with your knees.

This is your "ideal":
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/cd102_Momentum_lr.gif

Rinse and repeat 900 times. Of course kids will cheat and bring their hands around too soon, but at least they'll have the core dynamics to start from.

This is much simpler than worrying about "cues", or grips or strides or weight shifts.

[bbjunkie]

Following up on Mark's excellent point, teaching kids hitting, like teaching anything else, has to take into account where they're starting from. A cue often is used to overcome some flaw or deficiency; if they don't need it, don't use it. But if you throw the same list of "cues" at every kid, there will be too much to absorb. The "knob at the ball" cue works for very few kids, and at worse will have them develop into linear hitters sacrificing everything else to get the knob to the ball.

First, start with something they know -- an athletic stance, like they're guarding someone in basketball: you know, feet slightly more than shoulder width apart, weight on the balls of their feet. That puts them on familiar ground.

Second, rather than giving them cues, give them a visual concept they can aspire to. How's this: hold the bat so that the shoulders, front elbow, hands and bathead are all in a single plane, with the hands in front of and about four inches away from the rear shoulder. Then -- to swing -- turn the hips and have the rear shoulder turn with them and point toward where the ball likely will come. Don't think of the arms at all, as the hands should stay back with that rear shoulder longer than you think they should; let the rotation of the shoulders force the bathead around in the very same plane that you started with -- i.e., the shoulders and hands follow that front elbow around. Adjust for height by changing to pitch of the spine, not by reaching down or up for the ball with your arms or dipping with your knees.

This is your "ideal":
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/cd102_Momentum_lr.gif

Rinse and repeat 900 times. Of course kids will cheat and bring their hands around too soon, but at least they'll have the core dynamics to start from.

This is much simpler than worrying about "cues", or grips or strides or weight shifts.
Ursa is definitely on the right track. There are many long detailed discussions on this forum about rotational hitting. I've been studying it for about a year now and was lucky enough to spend last weekend with Steve Englishbey learning how to teach rotational hitting. As I mentioned on your other thread, I'm now teaching six 9-10 year olds these methods.

Seems to me that traditional batting instructions have been a collection of cliche's such as take the knob to the ball, squish the bug and keep your back elbow up. Some of these instructions may have some validity, but are frequently offered out of context.

My last few practices have encouraged me that teaching rotational mechanics to even young kids is doable. But, you have to have a solid understanding yourself and break it down into manageable bites. Following Steve's examples, I have the kids keep their feet a little wider than shoulder width apart and try not move them during the swing. (A little movement is almost unavoidable) Have them tilt their upper body forward in the athletic position with knees slightly flexed, keep their hands near their back shoulders with the bats resting on their shoulders at about 90 degrees to their torsos, and rotating their torsos into the swing. Keep their hands near their back shoulders almost to contact with the ball, then release. When done to perfection, the result should look like Ursa's skeleton.

However, perfection is elusive in 9-10 yo's. I am pleasently surprised that my kids all seem to have at least learned how to rotate the torso. And their hitting has really benefitted. One of the kids who developmentally just doesn't seem to be able to put together a good catch and throw motion, has sufficiently mastered the rotational swing that he is smacking the ball hard in the batting cage. I think the key is to keep it simple. The finer points of Steve's teachings can be taught as opportunity presents itself and skills develop.

If you want to pursue this take on hitting, it seems to me that a crash course is necessary. There are many people on this forum that can help steer you in the right directions. Good luck.

[Chris O'Leary]

Do we want to swing like MLB hitters or do we want to swing like Mike Marshall suggests. I don't know which side of that fence you are on where hitting is concerned.

To tell the truth, I have spent zero time looking at Marshall's stuff on hitting.

In general, I am a big fan of rotational hitting and follow the work of Mankin and Epstein.

Last year I screwed up one of my guys trying to follow some linear advice (striding led to sliding under the ball) and have been teaching him rotational with great success.

[Chris O'Leary]

Second, rather than giving them cues, give them a visual concept they can aspire to. How's this: hold the bat so that the shoulders, front elbow, hands and bathead are all in a single plane, with the hands in front of and about four inches away from the rear shoulder.

This is much too complicated for 6 year-olds (much less 11 year-olds).

In general I try to give them cues that will lead them to do the right thing (without their necessarily understanding the logic).

[Mark H]

To tell the truth, I have spent zero time looking at Marshall's stuff on hitting...

Good call.



In general, I am a big fan of rotational hitting and follow the work of Mankin and Epstein..

Flawed IMO, but a good place to start. I suggest getting Englishbey's DVD's.



Last year I screwed up one of my guys trying to follow some linear advice (striding led to sliding under the ball) and have been teaching him rotational with great success.

Linear vs rotational, as defined by Epstein and Mankin, doesn't mean you stride or not. But, as you found out, taking out the stride is an excellent way to work on rotation etc. Putting the stride back in may very well blow everything else sky high. At some later point, the stride can be added back in if desired. This need for this methodology may vary depending on the individual and level of player you are working with.

[Ursa Major]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ursa Major
Second, rather than giving them cues, give them a visual concept they can aspire to. How's this: hold the bat so that the shoulders, front elbow, hands and bathead are all in a single plane, with the hands in front of and about four inches away from the rear shoulder. Chris O'L replied:
This is much too complicated for 6 year-olds (much less 11 year-olds).

In general I try to give them cues that will lead them to do the right thing (without their necessarily understanding the logic).
You may not have picked this up from the other thread, but she'll be coaching 9 and 10 year olds, so they're further along and can make use of this teaching.

And, I'm just talking about the starting position. What screws kids up is trying to remember what to do in the middle of their swing. The point of this is to place them in a starting position, with a simple single mnemonic to remind them where everything should be (i.e., line up the bathead hands and front shoulder in a single plane), and then let them rotate hard. That's simpler in my book.

And, you'd be surprised at what even a six year old can do. Here's one of my favorite hitting clips gleaned from a Setpro post; I believe this slugger was just shy of his fifth birthday.

http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/LittleXSlo.gif

[tom.guerry]

I like the little guys swing.

At this age,always keep it fun.

For this sort of tee hit, I say turn,step,turn,swing.

turn- turn body back/neg move
step- usually just pick up foot and put it down or can take some forward stride

turn - body forward together when front foot gets down, let bat rest on deltoid sometimes
swing - try to pull with lead arm to high followthrough

Also with tee, walkup drill is a great way to learn footwork and weight shift.

Self toss and front toss are good.

With front toss, try mostly flat trajectory not loopy rainbow pitches,even at this size/age.

Reward more for hard hits to oppo side of pitcher.


Alos note that this "avatar" has plusses and minuses.

The swing plane and lead arm is pretty good.(except for absence of shoulder/scap tilt adjustment of course - not expected in the non believer).

Shoulder turn stopping at contact is a good thing to be aware of (heavy bagdrill works well with this timing- older kids).

There is no weight shift, back foot bug squishes, hips and legs turn together which does not happen in real swing, head action is weird.

This sort of thing is like a piece that can get inserted in the swing, but the flow/connections have to be thought of and they are omitted or wrong here.

These insertion drills are for older kids.In young kids this overstructuring limits learning.

Do not confuse the avatar with a real swing.

[Steve Englishbey]

"Do not confuse the avatar with a real swing."

Also do not confuse a guy who does nothing but sit at a computer and speculate with someone who actually works with hitters .

Someone for ex. ,like the dad of the 6 yr. old that Hiddendem showed [in still footage].

This dad has taken the time to actually read and understand well any number of things which I promote and which he picked up from Hitting-Mechanics.org.

His son is certainly one of THE best that I have seen at that level in terms of movement control and efficiency[or levels above him for that matter].He does not swing the bat like the young [and typical ] hitter above.

They are both [dad and 6 yr. old son]having alot of fun and being very smart about this stuff.

Ceratinly the dad----and possibly his 6 yr. old son -----have a better understanding of teaching than does the doctor from Yale.


steve

[swingbuster]

The point of this is to place them in a starting position, with a simple single mnemonic to remind them where everything should be (i.e., line up the bathead hands and front shoulder in a single plane), and then let them rotate hard. That's simpler in my book.

THis little fellow doesn't like hitting from one plane it appears...can't feel the bat barrel pop probably



Way to go kid...BHUT; lead elbow in tight then plane transition as the lower half begins rotation....LOOK Ofher a 5 year old can do it and he just hatched out of the egg before you messed with him ....must be as natural as throwing HUMMMMMMMMM...look TOM they can do it .

I totally agree you cannot fix the middle of a swing and especially the end.

AMEN!! That leave one place to work...the beginning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ohfor]

When you learn where the f the beginning of a swing is you'll have a clue.

That being said, you claimed to be AD a while back. Does that mean when you reread your posts you can't edit them so they are coherent.

[little_1_lady]

Jeez! Calm down - I just asked for a few insights, not a POST WAR! I appreciate everyones input, and I'm reading all of it. Problem is that I have to work with each individual player - whom (pending on the muscular development and placement) may differ in their muscular movement.

Some children may still be using their arm & shoulders to recruit strength in their swing instead of their core muscles & hips to help with the strength. I understand the kinesiological approach to this - but I just need some quick pointers to break it down into lamens terms for 9&10 year olds.

***(If this sounds "cranky" - as my husband put it - I don't mean for it to be; just getting rained out today kinda dampened our spirits around here having to tell all these kids that we can't practice tonight is saddening!):(

[Chris O'Leary]

I understand the kinesiological approach to this - but I just need some quick pointers to break it down into lamens terms for 9&10 year olds.

L1L,

Here are the cues that I am using for both my 6Us and my 11Us...

1. Feet shoulder width apart.

2. No stride.
Keep feet largely in place.
At most lift up heel of front foot.

3. Hands all the way back. *
Hands by back shoulder.
Reduces likelihood of hitching (taking hands back and then forward).

4. Back elbow up. *
Think Albert Pujols not Craig Counsell.

5. Bat up. *
Bat vertical or leaning on shoulder.
Not wrapped around head.
With younger kids getting the back elbow up also helps to keep the bat up.

6. Start the swing by flipping the hips open.
Apply this idea to your golf swing and you'll probably boost your distance by 25%.
The same idea also applies to pitching.
The hips rotate ahead of the shoulders.

7. Keep back elbow tucked into the body as you swing.

8. Swing flat to slight uppercut.
Goal = Hard hit line drives not ground balls.

9. Finish with stiff front leg.
Weight to catcher side of front foot.

In general the goal is to swing more with the body than the arms.

All of this stuff (which is largely what people would describe as rotational) is understandable by ordinary kids.

The ones marked with a star are what I'll remind a kid as he's setting up in the box. In my experience it's not too much for them to handle.

[swingbuster]

Chris..

You da man.....

I like all but maybe let them stride. The vertical bat will limit the stride

good solid break down though........... even the details

When you learn where the f the beginning of a swing is you'll have a clue.

A five year old with a great back side load with BHUT and weight transfer. That is just too good ...lets play like that is my clip....there you see it ....please refer back to this when you get confused. That was POST 11 ..put that is your favorites please

[fungo22]

Also with tee, walkup drill is a great way to learn footwork ... So is the Teabury Shuffle Drill.


With front toss, try mostly flat trajectory not loopy rainbow pitches,even at this size/age. You bet. Fire some frozen ropes in there. That will keep it fun.

Reward more for hard hits to oppo side of pitcher. Right, no beer for hits that don't make it past the pitcher.

Alos note that this "avatar" has plusses and minuses. Speaking of minuses, you forgot to mention he has no flesh and he's wearing a ridiculous giant disk under his arms. And he's wearing no pants. All in all, a BIG minus for wardrobe.

The swing plane and lead arm is pretty good.(except for absence of shoulder/scap tilt adjustment of course - not expected in the non believer). Right. And except for the absence of the heathen avatar's back arm. That is definitely a minus.

"Shoulder/scap tilt adjustment" ... not sure what it is. Is it perhaps something a chiropracter could help out with?

Shoulder turn stopping at contact is a good thing to be aware of (heavy bagdrill works well with this timing- older kids). Good advice. I bet she has a heavy bag in her garage. If not, just ask the league for one.

There is no weight shift, back foot bug squishes, hips and legs turn together which does not happen in real swing, head action is weird. Sometimes real swings have weird head action.

BTW: The avatar is not "squishing the bug," Doctor. He is pivoting on his back foot. Someone who's been around as long as you should know the difference.

This sort of thing is like a piece that can get inserted in the swing, but the flow/connections have to be thought of and they are omitted or wrong here. There are no "flow/connections" to the stride and load because there is no stride and load to flow/connect to. But he is thinking of them.

These insertion drills are for older kids.In young kids this overstructuring limits learning. Yup. It limits it to learning something efficient and productive.

Do not confuse the avatar with a real swing. Yup. This one is a more accurate depiction of a real swing:

http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/vbforum/images/pmopoweredby1xxx.gif

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris.. You da man...

Thanks. I've been developing these cues over the past 5 years with my 11U son and his teams. He's no Albert Pujols but is a good contact hitter.


I like all but maybe let them stride. The vertical bat will limit the stride

I had a bad experience with a stride last year, which prejudices me against it (possibly too much). One of my power hitters ended up over-striding and sliding under the ball. One day at BP I had him stop striding (instead he now just picks up his front heel while keeping the toe down) and that Saturday he hit a home run and a double.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with a short stride (e.g. 6 inches) as long as the guy is hitting the ball. Also, it's only when a guy can't make contact at all that I have them stop striding completely. Otherwise, and within reason, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[swingbuster]

Stride and ball arc

LL pitching ...ball drops more and the upper cut works. NO stride works

In HS more weight shift to prevent back side collapse to drive the ball flatter and farther. HR swings at 20-30 degrees work well

Your fine but as they progress..weight shift will be very important

[LClifton]

http://www.pitching-mechanics.org/vbforum/images/pmopoweredby1xxx.gifNow there's the missing link, the key, the holy grail.....gosh ----Thanks,
Excuse me I'm a little overwhelmed at the moment.

LClifton

[Mark H]

Stride and ball arc

LL pitching ...ball drops more and the upper cut works. NO stride works

In HS more weight shift to prevent back side collapse to drive the ball flatter and farther. HR swings at 20-30 degrees work well

Your fine but as they progress..weight shift will be very important

I give up telling you it's not weight shift. Weight shift is nothing. Momentum development is what you mean. As far as no stride being a problem, it seems to work fine for Pujols. Not that I have a problem with striding as momentum development, but it is NOT an absolute.

[Mark H]

Now there's the missing link, the key, the holy grail.....gosh ----Thanks,
Excuse me I'm a little overwhelmed at the moment.

LClifton

Yeah, that looks a lot like hitting doesn't it. ;)

[4for4]

Sheesh. I go out to a game and a practice with the kids and come back to find that I've missed out on all the fun. Would somebody let me know when the next round begins?

[GeorgiaHoo]

has very little stride. Frankly, until a few weeks ago she was a "spinner," which I think I've fixed. After some tweaking, she has been hitting well in the cage. However, I know about .5% of what I need to know.

[little_1_lady]

You guys rock & crack me up.

I understand the shoulder/scap part : the shoulder or the scapular muscles... that's what he's refering to. However, I firmly believe that the momentum that is gained in the forward motion of the hips rotating during the swing not only shift the weight bearing load to the front foot, but also releases the power exertion out the forward plane caused by the anterior movement of the arms. ( I have a B.S. in Kinesiology - I understand the Physiology of Exercise - I can figure out the amount of energy produced and exerted all the way down to the flexor digitorums on each kid and the shock absorbancy rate that will be generated back into their bodies after contact with the ball):lookitup

I don't know what the drill was that was mentioned above (Teabury shuffle drill), however.

[wogdoggy]

for a lady you sure talk like you've been around for awhile..hmmmm..you are mastering the jargon.

[LClifton]

You guys rock & crack me up.

I understand the shoulder/scap part : the shoulder or the scapular muscles... that's what he's refering to. However, I firmly believe that the momentum that is gained in the forward motion of the hips rotating during the swing not only shift the weight bearing load to the front foot, but also releases the power exertion out the forward plane caused by the anterior movement of the arms. ( I have a B.S. in Kinesiology - I understand the Physiology of Exercise - I can figure out the amount of energy produced and exerted all the way down to the flexor digitorums on each kid and the shock absorbancy rate that will be generated back into their bodies after contact with the ball):lookitup
That's awesome, Really.
So, all you need help with is practice organization?
Little Lady, (I know this should be in the other thread)
I'm thinking you are going to do just fine. (coaching your team) AND I admire your willingness to take this on. I offer my encouragement as it looks as though many have already given advice.
Just one "add on" or "add to"
Keeping your team as productively busy during practice as possible is key. (stated by many already)
An organizer of, and rotation to different stations, is something that I found a beneficial skill to learn.
With the help of Moms, Dads, Grandparents, (however that all plays out;) )
will allow you to oversee the practice and provide input when you see a particular drill not being done the way you want.

LClifton

p.s. What are flexor digitorums?

[little_1_lady]

for a lady you sure talk like you've been around for awhile..hmmmm..you are mastering the jargon.

What? If you're talking about the scientific terms - as I've said I have a bachelors of schience in kinesiology, also health and physical education. I totally understand the assistors, recruiters, and primary muscle movements in a swing, in a pitch, and when running - that was one of my research papers. Another one was about the stride taken before a swing & how it's a waste of energy that was meant to be arguementative without resolving the answer- therefore leaving it up to the reader to decide or further research themselves.

By having said this, I firmly believe that the stride is a waste of energy due to it's shifting of balance, weight transfer and basically recruiting energy that could be used for the furthering distance of a hit. I think of it as a four wheel drive truck, when you lock it into four wheel drive you've transfered the torque from the main axle, the rear which pushes (think of the upper torso which is swinging) up to the front which will be using a greater/almost equal force (think of the stride) that will not only slow down the movement of the truck (transfer of weight), but when you get out of the rough spot you have to pause momentarily (regaining power to the push off foot) to go back to two wheel drive ( first steps of running) to gain speed again. But this is only my opinion!

[Chris O'Leary]

I firmly believe that the stride is a waste of energy due to it's shifting of balance, weight transfer and basically recruiting energy that could be used for the furthering distance of a hit.

I generally agree.

I think focusing on the stride reflects a misunderstanding of the nature of how power is produced by the body. Of course I have similar thoughts about scap loading (I'd love to know your opinion of scap loading in hitting L1L).

Instead, I focus on the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulders as the primary source of power (largely due to the size of the muscles involved). In my opinion, the role of the muscles of the arm and shoulder is to stabilize the bat rather than to generate huge amounts of power.

[little_1_lady]

p.s. What are flexor digitorums?


I knew someone would have to ask... the muscles that move the fingers is the flexor digitorum superficialis, and flexor digitorum profundus muscle. ha, ha:clapping SMART MAN :clapping he admitted he didn't know by asking & that took great braveness I'm proud of you LClifton:clapping

[little_1_lady]

Of course I have similar thoughts about scap loading (I'd love to know your opinion of scap loading in hitting L1L).

Instead, I focus on the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulders as the primary source of power (largely due to the size of the muscles involved). In my opinion, the role of the muscles of the arm and shoulder is to stabilize the bat rather than to generate huge amounts of power.

Scap loading is a general way to assure injury of the rotators. Something which I prefer not to do - unless I wanted someone off my team i guess. I strongly agree with you on the primary source of power coming from the rotation of hips, torso then the transfer to the shoulders and out the arms. In martial arts they teach you to punch doing three things... One is to twist the hips, move the arm, and make a aloud "keop" noise. The hips twisting is the primary source of power, that transfers our the shoulders into the arm which upon impact is time for you to "keop" or grunt, gasp, whatever noise you make that allows for you to exert that little extra energy you have left in your muscles by expelling the oxygen from them.

If a person was to scap load - they may as well stride & spin around in a circle before the ball is even pitched, it's all a waste of time, energy & any players stay off the injured list/retired list pass.

[swingbuster]

I firmly believe that the stride is a waste of energy due to it's shifting of balance, weight transfer and basically recruiting energy that could be used for the furthering distance of a hit.

I predict a short honeymoon. Keep coaching and revising over time.


The body is out of balance when both arms and a bat are behind it. So what is balance at launch and what about bat and arm inertia, and how does weight shift affect all of this.

The formulas are not that simple as you probably know. Stride does yield momentum to uncoil the hips. Can you throw a bat as far from no stride as a guy that does a cross over step. Why crow hop from the outfield. These theories will run out of gas quickly.

[FlippJ]

Also with tee, walkup drill is a great way to learn footwork ...You bet. Fire some frozen ropes in there. That will keep it fun.

With front toss, try mostly flat trajectory not loopy rainbow pitches,even at this size/age.
Right, no beer for hits that don't make it past the pitcher.I have to admit fungo22, these two comments were pretty damn funny. :laugh

Thanks!

Jason

[Mark H]

Scap loading is a general way to assure injury of the rotators. Something which I prefer not to do - unless I wanted someone off my team i guess. I strongly agree with you on the primary source of power coming from the rotation of hips, torso then the transfer to the shoulders and out the arms. In martial arts they teach you to punch doing three things... One is to twist the hips, move the arm, and make a aloud "keop" noise. The hips twisting is the primary source of power, that transfers our the shoulders into the arm which upon impact is time for you to "keop" or grunt, gasp, whatever noise you make that allows for you to exert that little extra energy you have left in your muscles by expelling the oxygen from them.

If a person was to scap load - they may as well stride & spin around in a circle before the ball is even pitched, it's all a waste of time, energy & any players stay off the injured list/retired list pass.

Either we don't mean the same thing you do by scap load or you aren't studying slo mo video of MLB pitchers or both.

[Jake Patterson]

Last year I screwed up one of my guys trying to follow some linear advice (striding led to sliding under the ball) and have been teaching him rotational with great success.

Chris how would the results of your training methods compare to the skelatal representation above?

[Jake Patterson]

You guys rock & crack me up.

I understand the shoulder/scap part : the shoulder or the scapular muscles... that's what he's refering to. However, I firmly believe that the momentum that is gained in the forward motion of the hips rotating during the swing not only shift the weight bearing load to the front foot, but also releases the power exertion out the forward plane caused by the anterior movement of the arms.

Are you sure this is your first year???

[Jake Patterson]

I knew someone would have to ask... the muscles that move the fingers is the flexor digitorum superficialis, and flexor digitorum profundus muscle. ha, ha:clapping SMART MAN :clapping he admitted he didn't know by asking & that took great braveness I'm proud of you LClifton:clapping
Wait a minute not fair- you didn't give me enough time. I was looking it up!

[wogdoggy]

Are you sure this is your first year???


Sounds like she could be STEVES wife..:D

[Fuddrules]

and make a aloud "keop" noise

I thought that noise was reserved for just the pitchers?;)

[Ursa Major]

Wogdoggy said: Sounds like she could be STEVES wife..That's just what I was thinking, Woggy. At least, it would be fun to put the two of 'em in a room together and start talking that way. Of course, to the rest of us, it would sound to be either (a) Greek, or (b) dirty.

[LClifton]

That's just what I was thinking, Woggy. At least, it would be fun to put the two of 'em in a room together and start talking that way. Of course, to the rest of us, it would sound to be either (a) Greek, or (b) dirty.
flexor digitorum profundus muscle,,,,,,yeah, I see what you mean Ursa.:laugh

LClifton

[LClifton]

I don't know what the drill was that was mentioned above (Teabury shuffle drill), however.
............I remember this one.


LClifton

[fungo22]

I have a B.S. in Kinesiology Tom has an M.D. in B.S.

I don't know what the drill was that was mentioned above (Teabury shuffle drill).Not many do. So I've linked to video some so that you can see it. The video shows the basic footwork movement, but you'll have to improvise on adopting it into a hitting drill. Much like Tom has improvised in his adoption of golf and throwing mechanics to hitting.

Turn up your audio because there is some explanation.

http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wmv

http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wvx (http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wmv)

[4for4]

Tom has an M.D. in B.S.

Not many do. So I've linked to video some so that you can see it. The video shows the basic footwork movement, but you'll have to improvise on adopting it into a hitting drill. Much like Tom has improvised in his adoption of golf and throwing mechanics to hitting.

Turn up your audio because there is some explanation.

http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wmv

http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wvx (http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wmv)

I just blew milk through my nose. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[wogdoggy]

sad part is im old enough to remember that commercial.:ughh

[Mark H]

"Originally Posted by little_1_lady
I firmly believe that the stride is a waste of energy due to it's shifting of balance, weight transfer and basically recruiting energy that could be used for the furthering distance of a hit."

I suggest reading Dixon's book.

[little_1_lady]

Tom has an M.D. in B.S.

Not many do. So I've linked to video some so that you can see it. The video shows the basic footwork movement, but you'll have to improvise on adopting it into a hitting drill. Much like Tom has improvised in his adoption of golf and throwing mechanics to hitting.

Turn up your audio because there is some explanation.

http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wmv

http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wvx (http://www.lessonslearned.com/greg/teaberryshuffle87.wmv)


Thank you, I've not seen something so useful in awhile. It's too funny! My husband is still laughing & I can't quit laughing because he's still trying to do it. He tried it over & over - still can't get the footwork quite right though. However, that's how I walk down the hallways at school (work).:D :crazy :D

[little_1_lady]

Either we don't mean the same thing you do by scap load or you aren't studying slo mo video of MLB pitchers or both.


Okay, so what do you mean by scap load? Are you talking about the subscapularis or what?

[little_1_lady]

.

I predict a short honeymoon. Keep coaching and revising over time.


The body is out of balance when both arms and a bat are behind it. So what is balance at launch and what about bat and arm inertia, and how does weight shift affect all of this.

The formulas are not that simple as you probably know. Stride does yield momentum to uncoil the hips. Can you throw a bat as far from no stride as a guy that does a cross over step. Why crow hop from the outfield. These theories will run out of gas quickly.

inertia has two meanings, the tendency of an economy to continue moving in a fixed direction until a sufficient force acts to change that direction, and the "unwillingness to change" at a large firm which may contribute to a diseconomy of scale. I'm assuming you mean the first one more or less....

balance at launch is when you're launching & you're balanced...

bat and arm inertia are when your arm and a bat becomes inert...

and the weight shift means you've shifted your weight & it's affected all of this... (j.j.):crazy :D

Ooh, and for the honeymoon... no need to be short, i've already defeated the purpose!:D :D :D keep predicting though, it's entertaining!

[fungo22]

Buster, it looks like you've met your match.

Lady, see if you can keep him occupied for a couple of days.

[Ursa Major]

Gad, Greg, I can't believe you found a clip of that commercial. And Woggy, I'm ashamed to admit that I recall it too. What's worse, is that watching it again has tapped in to some inner core musical strata, and I know I'm going to be humming that tune for days. Curse you!

[swingbuster]

balance at launch is when you're launching & you're balanced...


Right and when the scales are tipped back with both arms and a bat behind you you are not balanced until you shift. Striding in baseball is the more common shift. Attempts to nostride at most levels omit the shift. The rear knee hinges and the weight falls back as the bat unhinges and it creates a big upper cut


bat and arm inertia are when your arm and a bat becomes inert...When they are at rest behind you they are in fact inert

and the weight shift means you've shifted your weight & it's affected all of this... (j.j.)

In a very positive sense it does effect all of this

Maybe you can work on BHUT and splain to these guys why many MLB players need to create hand torque as another power center.

Or Maybe you will convert to the " dark side" of one deminsional groupie-ism

Hopefully with you education you will not

[Mark H]

Okay, so what do you mean by scap load? Are you talking about the subscapularis or what?

Talking about this. http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg

[Jake Patterson]

sad part is im old enough to remember that commercial.:ughh

Being on the up side - no wait, down side no - THE WRONG side of fifty I remember these commercials. I wonder if there's a hitting drill in there some where.

[fungo22]

Being on the up side - no wait, down side no - THE WRONG side of fifty I remember these commercials. I wonder if there's a hitting drill in there some where. Three words: Universal foot action.

[LClifton]

Being on the up side - no wait, down side no - THE WRONG side of fifty I remember these commercials. I wonder if there's a hitting drill in there some where.
I admit it too...I remember, my Dad telling me about it ! Nope, just kidding.
I'm old enough...:o

[little_1_lady]

Okay... I had a 10 year old boy prove (in my opinion) the proper mecahnics of hitting. He had the most beautiful swing I had seen in person. He not only rotated at the hips, he didn't stride at all. If I can record his swing & figure out how to upload it on here - I will. But first I have to have practice again. (ha, ha)

[Chris O'Leary]

Talking about this. http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg

I really don't see any significant scap loading in the above clip.

Instead, what I see are...

1. Shrugging or winding up the shoulders (which stretches the muscles of the hips and torso).

2. Leading the swing with the hips.

3. Keeping the back elbow in tight to the body.

[Mark H]

You can find this explained on setpro.

[swingbuster]

What setpro did not see and say..........

1. Hocus - focus...look at the rear elbow " pinch" while the real action is on the other side out of the batter

2 Is the bat behind his body in the 45 slot...NO

3. Is the bat in front of his helmet YES

4. Is his lead elbow close to his chest and not up and out in the swing plane

YOU BET

5. Do his hand move BHUT and back on plane

You bet.

6. Does he drag the bat ...NO

7. Does he do one arm drills ...NO

8. Does he use a mechanism...yes

9. Would he change the way he hits to the posse way and be successful...NO

10. Can you load you scap with the lead elbow up...NO

11. If you look at the rear elbow can you miss what great hitters really do...yes

12. Was scap load a great " find" ...now you tell me

Does he want a glass of koolaid.... NO

Is he a considered a MLB clip to be studied.....who knows

[tominct]

"Do not confuse the avatar with a real swing."

Also do not confuse a guy who does nothing but sit at a computer and speculate with someone who actually works with hitters .

Someone for ex. ,like the dad of the 6 yr. old that Hiddendem showed [in still footage].

This dad has taken the time to actually read and understand well any number of things which I promote and which he picked up from Hitting-Mechanics.org.

His son is certainly one of THE best that I have seen at that level in terms of movement control and efficiency[or levels above him for that matter].He does not swing the bat like the young [and typical ] hitter above.

They are both [dad and 6 yr. old son]having alot of fun and being very smart about this stuff.

Ceratinly the dad----and possibly his 6 yr. old son -----have a better understanding of teaching than does the doctor from Yale.


steve

Where's the 6 year kid HG showed?

And Steve, do you have PayPal?

[Mark H]

SB,

I'm going to tell you again, your misunderstanding and just lack of factual knowledge of setpro and Steve is obvious. Again, you should have spent more classroom time on setpro and elsewhere with a student frame of mind before you put on a professor cap and walked to the front of the room. A couple of hours on the field with Steve and an open mind would do wonders.

[ssarge]

And Steve, do you have PayPal?

Steve will have PayPal soon. In the works.

Regards,

Scott

[ThirtyKmercy]

The Little Lady is almost Nymanish is you ask me - :atthepc

[swingbuster]

A couple of hours on the field with Steve and an open mind would do wonders.

Maybe so Mark......

[Mark H]

Excellent. Book it. As I said, you might be surprised at the common ground and I'm certain you would come away with new knowledge and perspectives.

[fungo22]

The Little Lady is almost Nymanish if you ask me - :atthepc Don't say things like this. You'll awaken Cletus from his phlegmatic slumbers. The Lady is nothing like Nyman. She laughs and jokes around, giving every indication she has a sense of humor.

[fungo22]

Excellent. Book it. As I said, you might be surprised at the common ground and I'm certain you would come away with new knowledge and perspectives. It's been a long time since I've witnessed anyone so defiantly optimistic in the face of so many reasons not to be. I gave up a long time ago. Hope springs eternal. I wish I were more like you.