Dr. Marshall's Video Available

[Coach45]

Some time ago there was a long thread that explored some of the ideas that Dr. Marshall, who won the Cy Young in 1974, has developed regarding pitching arm injuries and his biomechanical solutions for eliminating these injuries. (You might also recall that my son, drafted in 2003, is currently training with Marshall.)

I spoke with Dr. Marshall yesterday and am aware that he has now released a video that details his research. For those of you who are interested, you can find more information about this 2 1/2 hour video on his website:

http://drmikemarshall.com/2006BaseballPitchingInstructionalVideo.html

I saw rough edits of this video when I visited Dr. Marshall in January. It clearly shows why conventional pitching mechanics injure the arm, using high speed film research he has done for almost four decades. You will also see x-rays of youth and adult pitchers that show the bone damage done by pitching. He also provides a clear teaching methodology for teaching a pitching mechanic that eliminates pitching injuries as we now know them. The video also includes major league game footage of two pitchers who threw using at least portions of what he now advocates.

If you have a son who pitches I strongly recommend that you view this video.

Coach45

[Chris O'Leary]

I agree that Dr. Marshall's video is worth the money.

[Ohioteamz]

Is this Eteamz all of the sudden? Props to the Marshall posse for at least keeping the usernames are consistent.

[Mark H]

I think you will find a more skeptical audience here than eteamz and almost all of them are betting you are MM dupes already.

[4for4]

his biomechanical solutions

What would Marshall's biomechanical solutions be for say Roger Clemons?

And I was just wondering if you would post a video clip right here in this thread of a youngster using Marshall's biomechanical solutions and maybe a video of, I don't know, maybe a high level player, say D1 or even MLB doing the same? It would be helpful to me and everyone if I could compare a Marshall student to, uh...the last about 100 years of the best that ever pitched a ball.

[wogdoggy]

I am one guy in a little town in Florida. I will not take credit cards. Because my bank says that it cannot guarantee when personal checks clear and, as a result, I have lost several hundred dollars in receipts. Therefore, I can only accept money orders, cashier checks and well-disguised cash. Please make your money orders and cashier checks payable to Dr. Mike Marshall.

Please send your return address and email address to:

well disguised cash? oh my.lol..:crazy

[4for4]

well disguised cash? oh my.lol..:crazy

Lions and Tigers and Bears...

[Coach45]

I think you will find a more skeptical audience here than eteamz and almost all of them are betting you are MM dupes already.


Mark,

I sent out almost 75 CD's to guys through this website, showing my son's mechanics. Have had some very nice discussions with some of them...including HiddenGem. He was kind enough to send me something in return. Great video of a major league homerun. His.

You have refused to even take a look. I've even offered to pay the $100 Marshall is charging and send you a complimentary copy of his complete video. You declined saying you'll wait until someone is throwing this way in the bigs and then you refuse to look at game footage of someone throwing Marshall's way in big league games.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Coach45

[Coach45]

What would Marshall's biomechanical solutions be for say Roger Clemons?

And I was just wondering if you would post a video clip right here in this thread of a youngster using Marshall's biomechanical solutions and maybe a video of, I don't know, maybe a high level player, say D1 or even MLB doing the same? It would be helpful to me and everyone if I could compare a Marshall student to, uh...the last about 100 years of the best that ever pitched a ball.

Why don't you ask Dr. Marshall personally and see how he responds?

[4for4]

Mark,

I sent out almost 75 CD's to guys through this website, showing my son's mechanics. Have had some very nice discussions with some of them...including HiddenGem. He was kind enough to send me something in return. Great video of a major league homerun. His.

You have refused to even take a look. I've even offered to pay the $100 Marshall is charging and send you a complimentary copy of his complete video. You declined saying you'll wait until someone is throwing this way in the bigs and then you refuse to look at game footage of someone throwing Marshall's way in big league games.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Coach45

Post video here. You came here telling us the sky was falling. Now you need to either put up or shut up.

[4for4]

Why don't you ask Dr. Marshall personally and see how he responds?

Why don't you post a clip here?

[wogdoggy]

Chris and coach 45

can't you just post the vid here and or e mail it to one of us and we can get it up here.


:gt

[BBFreak]

My son is currently in the first 280 day pitching training program at Dr. Marshall's facility in Zephyrhills and it is amazing the amount of development and pitching progress he has made in a little under 8 months. When my son started there he was throwing 84mph and had a decent curve to compliment his fastball. What he now has is incredible. I wish he had these pitches, this velocity, and this arm strength last year as a high school senior. He was home for spring break a couple of weeks ago and his velocity and movement has picked up dramatically (I'm saying close to or above 88mph).

I share that because this is the results of a father who 5 years ago began looking for a pitching program that would help his son develop and be the best pitcher he could possibly be. I researched and visited alot of websites and read brochures from others that were selling their training programs but none were all that concerned about the injuries that are so common in the pitching arena. I'm a maintenance manager so I hear alot of sales pitches that contain alot of hype but little proof via documented studies to validate their claims. The thing that caught my attention with Dr. Marshall's program is that he validates his program with research and results which I can now personally attest to.

Dr. Marshall seemed to be more interested in the development of the complete pitcher and a rigorous training program to strengthen and overcome the mechanical flaws & stresses related to pitching. That was enough to catch my interest so I started reading his material. Well, if you have tried to do that it is virtually impossible to understand without a Phd, so several fathers and others coaxed Dr. Marshall into doing a quick training film. The purpose was to demonstrate how to apply his training regimen and also how to throw the pitches he teaches. It wasn't the best but it was a visual of what I couldn't create in my minds eye. The films are now much better and the training is more refined to really develop the total pitcher.

I don't blame anyone who is skeptical because I'm the world's biggest skeptic. But if you honestly research pitching and arm injuries you will most likely come to the same conclusion I did. As for anyone in the major's using this program you won't probably see it for another couple of years because it takes a tremendous amount of effort and study to understand the implications of what the current pitching motion is doing to today's pitchers. It's easier to complain and throw stones than to admit a problem but if anyone of us would conduct our business like MLB takes care of it's pitchers you and I would be in court for gross negligence.

I would highly recommend this training program for anyone who is interested in becoming the best pitcher he can be. I can say it because I've been there.

[Mark H]

Wonderful. Can we get a clip?

[Mark H]

Mark,



You don't know what you're talking about.

Coach45

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. Let's see, I'm saying MLB pitchers are doing it correctly and you say they aren't. Hmmm.

[DodgerJon]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but on Dr. Marshal's website, question 827 on his 2006 Q&A's post the first half of his 2006 pitching video. Now you can see for yourself the master at work.

1. www.lishosting.com/main1.asx
2. www.lishosting.com/main2.asx
3. www.lishosting.com/xrays.asx
4. www.lishosting.com/wweight1.asx
5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

[Mark H]

http://eteamz.active.com/baseball/boards/baseball/message.cfm?id=1685561

More Marshall.

[hplant25]

I am a pitching kinda guy, and I am lucky to know Dick Mills and Tom House personaly. I dont know how there teachings vary from Mike Marshall's, but I doubt they are very different. Both Dick and tom both advacate proper mechanics to pitch with your body and not your arm wich i think everyone is clear on now. The most inportant thing that I can tell anyone about pitching that is not mechanicaly related is to train your body to pitch in the wieght room as well. I positive Mike Marshall also teaches this. Your muscles have to be in pitching shape to keep from hurting your arm bottom line. Roger Clemens is well known for his off-season work ethic as you all may know, so it goes without saying that having functional strength is as important as good mechanics. Somthing that is advocated by every TOM, DICK and MIKE

[Mark H]

You may want to do a little/ a lot of reading up on Marshall. You may be surprised. You might want to do some serious googling on Mills and House as well.

[Baseball gLove]

Where's Nyman when you need him?

[jojab]

Both Dick and tom both advacate proper mechanics to pitch with your body and not your arm wich i think everyone is clear on now.

How to do you pitch without your arm?

[Encinitas]

A wise bird once said about 50% of your velocity comes from your arm. So no it isn't clear and accepted that we throw with the body and not the arm. We optimize arm action first and foremost.

[jimmiemac]

I am a pitching kinda guy, and I am lucky to know Dick Mills and Tom House personaly. I dont know how there teachings vary from Mike Marshall's, but I doubt they are very different. Both Dick and tom both advacate proper mechanics to pitch with your body and not your arm wich i think everyone is clear on now. The most inportant thing that I can tell anyone about pitching that is not mechanicaly related is to train your body to pitch in the wieght room as well. I positive Mike Marshall also teaches this. Your muscles have to be in pitching shape to keep from hurting your arm bottom line. Roger Clemens is well known for his off-season work ethic as you all may know, so it goes without saying that having functional strength is as important as good mechanics. Somthing that is advocated by every TOM, DICK and MIKE

How well does that relate to a pitcher such as Randy Johnson? I agree that improving the body can help, but the arm is the key ingredient. Don't believe me? Try this:

How your arm straight out (or at any angle you desire) and maintian that exact angle and position in relation to the body (dont move your arm) and try to throw as far as you can just using the body.

Now do just the opposite. Plant your body in a pitching position and maintain that position and just using your arm throw a baseball as far as you can.

Certainly you throw harder and more accurately combing both the arm & body, but of the two distint areas, which is more important? Do not ignore the importance of developing the arm.

[Jake Patterson]

5. www.lishosting.com/wweight2.asx

It was MM's weight throwing training that turned off the certified physical therapists I reviewed the clips with. Both had very negative reactions because of the potential damage to the elbow and shoulder. In fairness to MM I am not a PT and do not fully understand what they are concerned with.

I lieu of the bantering that has been going on about MM for years, I would like to see MM in an open forum discussing his methods with other professionals to include orthopedists who specialize in sport medicine.

The problem I have with MM -and his detractors- is that the PT's and Dr's I have reviewed the clips with seem to like much of what he does, but have problems with other aspects. Intelligent discussion, or at least listening to intelligent discussion would help.

[GFK]

Jake, what one has to remember is the frame of reference for each. A professional athlete or a teenager aspiring to be a professional athlete is going to need to take greater risks than the average Joe. The PT’s and MD’s are not concerned with what it will take to get to a controlled 95 mph fastball. They are concerned with the general well being of the person. If the person never obtains a 95 mph fastball but goes through life without shoulder and elbow problems, the PT’s and MD’s call that a “win”. If the aspiring pro athlete has a successful pro career and later in life has elbow / shoulder problems, I bet it is safe to say they would consider their career as a success and the elbow / shoulder problems as occupational hazards.

Risk : Reward ratios.

Just for the record, I am not a MM advocate.

[Ursa Major]

But, GFK, where's the evidence that there will be a reward for this risky behavior? A kid pondering steroid use can at least look to Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti, et al. and say, gee, those guys really took their careers into the stratosphere after juicing.

A kid contemplating Marshall's weight training program in the face of trainers' concerns has absolutely no evidence that it will help get him to the next level, not to mention the rest of Marshall's program. So, why take the risk?

It's interesting that Coach 45 dropped his son out of the baseball world and into Marshall's hands about a year ago to remake him into a Marshall type pitcher. The Coach shared with me some video of the kid pitching and it looked like he had substantial potential. We've heard almost nothing here since this thread's original post. It would be nice to here how the kid has come along, as I think he'd be a good litmus test for the Marshall program.

Coach???

[Jake Patterson]

A professional athlete or a teenager aspiring to be a professional athlete is going to need to take greater risks than the average Joe. The PT’s and MD’s are not concerned with what it will take to get to a controlled 95 mph fastball. They are concerned with the general well being of the person.

I somewhat agree ...
The PT's I work with specialize in athletics. They understand the goals of the athletes and have programs to help pitchers achieve their goals. Where the real good PT's are helpful is when they can analyze the bio-mechanics and physical condition of the player and determine whether or not their goals are reasonable. Most players, especially teenage players, taking MM's film and strapping ten pound weights to their hands and start throwing is dangerous no matter hoe you slice it.

Again I admire MM's dedication and do plan on visiting him at some point. Open discussion with other professionals is what is really needed. It's science not voodoo.

[GFK]

But, GFK, where's the evidence that there will be a reward for this risky behavior? A kid pondering steroid use can at least look to Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti, et al. and say, gee, those guys really took their careers into the stratosphere after juicing.

A kid contemplating Marshall's weight training program in the face of trainers' concerns has absolutely no evidence that it will help get him to the next level, not to mention the rest of Marshall's program. So, why take the risk?

It's interesting that Coach 45 dropped his son out of the baseball world and into Marshall's hands about a year ago to remake him into a Marshall type pitcher. The Coach shared with me some video of the kid pitching and it looked like he had substantial potential. We've heard almost nothing here since this thread's original post. It would be nice to here how the kid has come along, as I think he'd be a good litmus test for the Marshall program.

Coach???

I know nothing about MM so I will leave his stuff to others to digest.

With respect to evidence of reward, if you knew you were going to be rewarded for a specific risk, then that sort of takes the risk portion out of it. That is why it is called risk. Now one can use some brains in this. Look at the long-toss studies and weighted ball studies. What do the results show? Look at the different gurus and compare what they teach to what the MLB pitchers are actually doing.

[Chris O'Leary]

A wise bird once said about 50% of your velocity comes from your arm. So no it isn't clear and accepted that we throw with the body and not the arm. We optimize arm action first and foremost.

I wouldn't believe any of these studies.

I once read a study that said that 90% of velocity comes from the arm (which is complete garbage and based on a VERY naive understanding of the throwing motion).

That's like saying that 100% of a car's velocity comes from the tires. It ignores all of the things that make the wheels spin.

[Chris O'Leary]

How to do you pitch without your arm?

The majority of the force is generated by the muscles of the lower body and torso. They drive the shoulders which drive the arm which drive the ball.

This isn't just me saying this.

I once read a piece by Nolan Ryan in which he used a great analogy of comparing a pitcher to a car. He suggested that the legs, hips, and torso are the engine, the shoulders and arm are the transmission, and the hand is the tires.

I think that is just about right.

[jojab]

I wouldn't believe any of these studies.

I once read a study that said that 90% of velocity comes from the arm (which is complete garbage and based on a VERY naive understanding of the throwing motion).

That's like saying that 100% of a car's velocity comes from the tires. It ignores all of the things that make the wheels spin.

You jumped from the 50% statement to agruing against 90% and 100%. He didn't say it was 90% or 100%, he said 50%.

What do you think the percentage is and what do you base your belief on?

[Chris O'Leary]

How your arm straight out (or at any angle you desire) and maintian that exact angle and position in relation to the body (dont move your arm) and try to throw as far as you can just using the body.

Now do just the opposite. Plant your body in a pitching position and maintain that position and just using your arm throw a baseball as far as you can.

Certainly you throw harder and more accurately combing both the arm & body, but of the two distint areas, which is more important? Do not ignore the importance of developing the arm.

There's no question that power is facilitated by the interaction of the torso, shoulders, and arm. By locking your arm, you inhibit this interaction. However, most of the force is generated by the torso.

In my opinion, the job of the arm is to transmit or funnel this force to the hand, not to generate significant force.

[Chris O'Leary]

It was MM's weight throwing training that turned off the certified physical therapists I reviewed the clips with. Both had very negative reactions because of the potential damage to the elbow and shoulder. In fairness to MM I am not a PT and do not fully understand what they are concerned with.

I agree that some of these drills look scary, but they can be done safely if you follow his program and gradually work your way into them.

[Chris O'Leary]

But, GFK, where's the evidence that there will be a reward for this risky behavior?

The best evidence is Marshall's own career.

By the mid-70s (when he won the Cy Young) he was doing much of what he is currently advocating.

You can also see aspects of what Marshall advocates in the mechanics of a number of major leaguers.

For example, Freddy Garcia's arm motion is a great example of how you could apply the crow hop rhythm (e.g. get the arm up very early) to the pitching motion.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/FreddyGarcia_2006_001.jpg

Similarly, this photo of Cardinals prospect Adam Ottavino is an example of Marshall's ideas with respect to pronation. Notice that his palm is facing home plate in the photo below.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/AdamOttavino_2006_001.jpg

[Chris O'Leary]

You jumped from the 50% statement to agruing against 90% and 100%. He didn't say it was 90% or 100%, he said 50%. What do you think the percentage is and what do you base your belief on?

First, I mentioned the 90% number to make the point that there is no consensus on what the number is.

I believe that the direct, muscle driven contribution of the different parts is most likely something like...

- 10% stride
- 75% hips and torso
- 10% internal rotation of shoulder
- 5% other

Of course, velocity is also generated through other, non-muscular means (e.g. by having the arm extended while the shoulders rotate).

Based on looking at high speed film, I do not believe that (when you are talking about a high level throw) the muscles of the arm contribute very much to velocity. Instead, during the throw the muscles of the Bicep are much more concerned with keeping the elbow from extending too rapidly. I also do not believe that the muscles of the shoulder (e.g. internal rotators) contribute much to the shoulder because, at the moment that internal rotation happens, the elbow is almost fully extended which means that the hand is pretty much on the axis of rotation. You can see this in the photo below of Anthony Reyes. He's internally rotating the shoulder with the elbow completely extended.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/ThePitchingMechanic/Images/AnthonyReyes_2006_005.jpg

One of the things that makes this confusing is that you can throw darts with just your arm (largely by contracting your Triceps). However, this is not how high level throwers actually throw the ball. In their case the Triceps is flaccid.

[jojab]

Based on looking at high speed film, I do not believe that (when you are talking about a high level throw) the muscles of the arm contribute very much to velocity.

He didn't say muscles of the arm...he said arm action, meaning what the arms actually do. That is the point Jimmiemac was getting at as well. His point being that you can have the greatest lower body action in the world but if you don't link it up correctly through effective arm action it won't matter.

That is why some suggest that when teaching the throwing mechanics, you start first with good arm-action. Just like you agree that you have to learn to throw before you pitch, some would say that you have to know how to properly use your arms before you can throw. I'm not really sure you disagree with this.

[Maxx]

The photo of Adam Ottavino looks to me like a curveball with palm toward third base.

[wringle]

I have read many articles and discussions and have decided on the Dick Mills program for my kid 8 year old.

I also will follow the program. I am not a pitcher so I have to learn from the start like my son. So i can see how well the program does.

I also think all fathers if they can should throw like thier sons. I think that if you train as hard as them and require them to work hard so should you. You can see if you are doing to much. based upon my aging body i should breakdown first, that way I can make sure my son does not.

We can add gobs of reasons on how this could be wrong based on mechanics etc.. but its the only way i can figure out if he is getting close to working to hard. I also think that you can try a few of the "I wonder" ideas on yourself and not your kid. I think it is better to experiment on myself then the boy.

The results so far is I get more sore then my kid and when I am sore I make him throw less or skip a day or two while i recover. This has lead him to have 0 problems so far. The only worry would be is i am being to worried but it is early and we are still working on getting 70% fastball strikes ..

Early stages of pitching so my ideas may be out of wack...:crazy

[Maxx]

wringle, sounds like a good philosophy to me. I throw with my team almost everyday, i try all the hitting drills myself to make sure i can do what i am teaching, and i try to get involved in all the defensive drills whenever possible. I figure if the players can see me doing the drill correctly and working hard to make myself better even though I'm beyond playing anything except slow pitch softball, that will make them work a bit harder and they'll have a visual of what it SHOULD look like.

[Baseball gLove]

I have read many articles and discussions and have decided on the Dick Mills program for my kid 8 year old.

I also will follow the program. I am not a pitcher so I have to learn from the start like my son. So i can see how well the program does.

I also think all fathers if they can should throw like thier sons. I think that if you train as hard as them and require them to work hard so should you. You can see if you are doing to much. based upon my aging body i should breakdown first, that way I can make sure my son does not.

We can add gobs of reasons on how this could be wrong based on mechanics etc.. but its the only way i can figure out if he is getting close to working to hard. I also think that you can try a few of the "I wonder" ideas on yourself and not your kid. I think it is better to experiment on myself then the boy.

The results so far is I get more sore then my kid and when I am sore I make him throw less or skip a day or two while i recover. This has lead him to have 0 problems so far. The only worry would be is i am being to worried but it is early and we are still working on getting 70% fastball strikes ..

Early stages of pitching so my ideas may be out of wack...:crazy

Sorry to contradict you Deezeldogg.

Wringle: I am sorry but your logic is flawed. Kids have open growth plates at their joints. Your soreness can be attributed to lack of throwing or poor mechanics. I throw about 400-600 pitches a week including fastballs, sliders, curves and knuckles and the only soreness I get is in my Vastus Medialis aka the quadriceps muscle that runs up the inside of my thigh. You need to be more careful with your son than you are with yourself.

I would restrict your son's pitching to no more than one inning or 25 pitches per game, no more than 2 games a week, until he is 10. Go two innings at 10 & 11 keeping his pitch count around 30 - 40. No curve balls until he is 14 and then very few of those and no sliders until you are certain he is not growing any more.

[Chris O'Leary]

Wringle: I am sorry but your logic is flawed. Kids have open growth plates at their joints. Your soreness can be attributed to lack of throwing or poor mechanics.

Great point.

Kids, and by that I mean people who are younger than 16 or 17 biological years old, and adults experience different problems because they have different bodies.


I would restrict your son's pitching to no more than one inning or 25 pitches per game, no more than 2 games a week, until he is 10. Go two innings at 10 & 11 keeping his pitch count around 30 - 40. No curve balls until he is 14 and then very few of those and no sliders until you are certain he is not growing any more.

This is exactly how I handle my 11 year-old son as well as the other pitchers I coach.

All of my guys are still good pitchers (one team went 8-4 and the other team went 7-4-1) and none of my guys have ever complained of pain, much less had an injury.

[Maxx]

Sorry to contradict you Deezeldogg.

Hey no problem! I think Baseball Love and Chris make very good points--points that I never really considered since I've never coached athletes that young. But I think the idea of learning the mechanics yourself so that you understand the techniques and are able to model them is a solid idea! This was the main point that I was agreeing on with wringle. Thanks for the input guys......

[Chris O'Leary]

But I think the idea of learning the mechanics yourself so that you understand the techniques and are able to model them is a solid idea!

I follow this approach myself.

Even though in my case it just means throwing BP, it is still important to keep things simple and to focus on the target. I also pitch for my slow pitch softball team and find that the same lessons apply.

In fact, living it gives me tremendous respect for my pitchers. I know how hard hard it is for me to recover from an error behind me or a case of the yips, and it amazes me how mentally tough my kids can be.

It also makes me realize how useless (or worse) yelled-out comments like "Just throw strikes" are.

What do you think I'm trying to do?!?

That's why the only thing I tell my guys is "Focus on the glove and let it rip".

[Baseball gLove]

....I That's why the only thing I tell my guys is "Focus on the glove and let it rip".

You're copying me.;)

[Mark H]

The photo of Adam Ottavino looks to me like a curveball with palm toward third base.

Again illustrating the absurdity of using stills for analysis or proof. Good catch.

[Mark H]

I have read many articles and discussions and have decided on the Dick Mills program for my kid 8 year old.



Good call if you don't have aspirations to reach his genetic potential. He will likely throw strikes quickly and have an excellent youth career.

[Jake Patterson]

Good call if you don't have aspirations to reach his genetic potential. He will likely throw strikes quickly and have an excellent youth career.

Mark, why not offer advice? It's Wringle's first post. Why make his first experience here negative?

Wringle, Mills is a good place to start.

I think that if you train as hard as them and require them to work hard so should you. You can see if you are doing to much. based upon my aging body i should breakdown first, that way I can make sure my son does not.

Having gone through this with my now adult sons, and having coached for twenty years I would offer a word of caution. You should not have any eight y/o in a training program that would wear an adult out. Take it easy and let your son determine the amount of time he wants to put into learning how to pitch.

Learning together on the other hand is a great way for your son to learn as long as you realize it's temporay at best. You will have to turn him over to others at some point.

[Mark H]

Mark, why not offer advice? It's Wringle's first post. Why make his first experience here negative?

Wringle, Mills is a good place to start.



.

I gave the positives of Mills program. It will likely produce an effective pitcher quickly. This is a legitimate goal. Most never play past the 12U year of LL. Mills program should make this kid's youth career successful. Nothing wrong with that. Careful of reading too much into tone. OTOH, if I don't say what I see as the negatives of his choice and it turns out the kid wanted to achieve his potential, then I share fault in that. If dad wants to question further he can ask. He has apparently done the research he intends to do and made his choice. Depending on his goals, it may be an excellent choice.

[Jake Patterson]

I gave the positives of Mills program. It will likely produce an effective pitcher quickly. This is a legitimate goal. Most never play past the 12U year of LL. Mills program should make this kid's youth career successful. Nothing wrong with that. Careful of reading too much into tone. OTOH, if I don't say what I see as the negatives of his choice and it turns out the kid wanted to achieve his potential, then I share fault in that. If dad wants to question further he can ask. He has apparently done the research he intends to do and made his choice. Depending on his goals, it may be an excellent choice.

In this light - I may have read too much into what you are saying.

[hplant25]

The photo of Adam Ottavino looks to me like a curveball with palm toward third base.


I dont Know, looks like a slider to me with the wrist hooked in.