piazza

[dannyboy]

hiddengem,

did you see Piazza's two hits last night? how they relate to this article:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060225/news_1s25padres.html

here's video link to his HR:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060404&content_id=1382992&vkey=news_sd&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd


but the single to left was just as impressive, and a better example.

[swingbuster]

THANK YOU RAY...

For guys wanting OPPO Power see how he does it. THe loading pattern BHUT and inside /out Bonds type "top hand " down on that ball. If you have not tried this then you are missing half of your potential or more. Look at that pitch location.

If you think you can just let that ball get deep and turn on it ...well good luck. He threw that top hand down on it in a whip fashion. Full hip turn doesn't help you over there and down ...that is why MLB player must have another power source...hand torque

HOF players vs the rest of them...they can use the whole park...we do work on that. A pull field team is doomed before the season starts.

[Ohfor]

For as much as you look, it's amazing what you can't see.

[swingbuster]

I coach 16-30 kids from time to time. I see many things more than your coaching one for 4 years.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

"Piazza, who swings a 34½-inch stick that weighs 33 ounces, said hand strength is crucial to allowing him to propel off-speed pitches for hits when he's prematurely committed to the swing."

"It's not when a guy hits a cookie that tells you – they all can do that.”

This pretty much says it all right here. You can look at David Wright's oppo homer yesterday, or his single to right, where an adjustment with the hands was required on a slider away. I agree with Piazza when he said it's not the most important thing, but it's added insurance.

[tom.guerry]

beautiful upper/lower body timing as evidenced by synch of front leg and back arm. Back arm action can be detemined by how bat is coking/uncoking.

also notice the open front foot at toe touch,even for middle out location.

arm/handstrength is extremely important in a good "hips and hands" swing as is well known in golf in the case of the "classic" swing:

http://www.golfdigest.com/ravielli/

"Since the old hickory shafts were so whippy, there was much greater use of the hands in the classic swing,"

"The wooden shafts also caused greater emphasis to be placed on timing than is the case in the powerful modern swing

"The danger with the classic swing is that it places so much emphasis on the hands and wrists. They are the speed producers, but they are also the weakest link in the swing unless they are supported by the necessary strength in the fingers, hands and forearm."

[Mark H]

SB and Tom,

You guys just wear me out. Whatever cue works for you.

[swingbuster]

You guys just wear me out

We are trying to balance the equation Mark. That Piazza clip was no PCR FP swing. Watch him from the catcers point of view and watch the path of the bat barrel.

We tell you whats happening...the MLB players tell you whats happening and in your eyes it still isn't happening as they have a perception/ reality problem. Well all of them do not.

People log on here and get PCR advice and keep tugging the top hand .

Hold your right hand up palm out shoulder height. Now rotate the hips to the left. What happens to the hand...absolutely nothing. The same thing that happens to the bat when the top hand trys to come forward with hip turn.

[Mark H]

You should have paid more attention on setpro and you really need a couple of hours on the field with Steve.

[Ohfor]

They can only see what they can see...................not much.

[swingbuster]

You should have paid more attention on setpro and you really need a couple of hours on the field with Steve.

Or you should just say what you think is happening

They can only see what they can see...................not much.

We can say what we know.... more than you can do with your gag order

[wogdoggy]

he never really turned on it seemed he just muscled it out ,,does he just move his rear leg back to clear the way?
I know the results were great but is this really a great swing?

[Ohfor]

...We can say what we know....

And you do. Over and over and over. BHUT, BHUT, BHUT, BHUT. The same sh*t that has been taught on amateur fields for years and years and years. And 1 out of a 10,000 will "get it".

It's not our fault that that is all you know.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I know the results were great but is this really a great swing?

You just hit the nail on the head without even realizing it.

An actual game is not a batting cage. The real-time adjustments you make from AB to AB and from pitch to pitch, do not result in a "great swing" at all times. Success at high levels depends greatly on your ability to make solid contact in these situations, which happen a ton in real games.

[swingbuster]

And 1 out of a 10,000 will "get it".

about the same % that make it to and in MLB and one more that gets what your saying that never helps kids..

.my 4 hole BHUT hit a grandslam with it today. We were sitting in the dugout betting on whether they would pitch him in the center of the plate not on whether he would knock it out...that was easy

The same sh*t that has been taught on amateur fields for years and years and years.

That is funny...I never see it taught and not even here. It IS poorly understood I guess and very simple

[wogdoggy]

hey i need the definition of BHUT again.lol..


Swingy get some clips on here will ya? And i'm not saying that to Bust you either.Its only right .I dont think ohfor is waiting in the wings to tear your video up either.Aren't you proud of some of the results you have had and don't you want to show us?:gt

[swingbuster]

I really don't get what is so hard to see. Most of the greatest players past and present do this and it has been posted many times...when the bat goes vertical...tipping or not from the catchers view the bottom hand is under the top. When the BHUT then the lead elbow is down and the rear up and top hand pronated ( sloping down like your pouring water out of it). As long as you stay BHUT you cannot bring your hands forward. When the shoulder rotation starts the top hand moves back not forward. when your hands turn over your bottom hand leads...mechanism.....

THis is a big difference. Mankins explains it well and his sales make anything setpro did look like a kid brother ...without the attitude is course.

A good guy, good info, a real website, a real DVD in it's box, a good price, and the best explanation of upper body info.

If Steve can teach you core mechanics fine ...you might be even better . But unless you lead with the bottom hand ( which few kids do well) you have problems.

My simple mission in this post...show/ reveal how to use the top hand at launch so as not to pull it forward.

What is so hard about trying that??

[wogdoggy]

nothing is so hard and i will try that since you finally explained in it laymen terms..

[Sultan_1895-1948]

my 4 hole BHUT hit a grandslam with it today. We were sitting in the dugout betting on whether they would pitch him in the center of the plate not on whether he would knock it out...that was easy


1. What does BHUT stand for?

2. SB, where do you play?

[ssarge]

my 4 hole BHUT hit a grandslam with it today. We were sitting in the dugout betting on whether they would pitch him in the center of the plate not on whether he would knock it out...that was easy
Donny,

Surely this is not what you meant?

Are you playing at a level where ANYONE ever gets pitched in the center of the plate? Much less a #4?

I would certainly suspect not, but - well, perhaps you can clarify your comment.


How many of your guys are signed?

(something I don't mind sharing, and I think it is illustrative as we try to figure out relative levels. Of the 9 Seniors on our 18Gold FP team, 6 of the girls are signed - 4 D1, one D2, and one D3. Two others are close. The balance of our 15 players are younger.)

Regards,

Scott

[DanC]

We are trying to balance the equation Mark. That Piazza clip was no PCR FP swing. Watch him from the catcers point of view and watch the path of the bat barrel.

I am mainly a lurker here and at other sites as well but I just have to speak up here. I would like to point out to Swingbuster a couple of points to consider.

#1. BHUT= bottom hand under top hand. Never seen anyone at any level that did not have there bottom hand on the bottom. I would dare say that even if they were to bat crosshanded that the hand on the bottom could/would (threw the slash in there for Tom) be considered the bottom hand as it is in fact on the bottom.

#2. I believe that what you are implying (your opinion) is that the hitter needs to get a hand set that requires the hitter to use Mankins THT. I have been down that road and I can tell that it dont get it against quality pitching.

Which leads me to a point of contention and that is I would love to see your winning HS boys team trying to hit against some top level HS girls fastpitch pitchers. I can quarantee you that if they are BHUT and THT, elbow slotting etc., well my money is on the girls.





Hold your right hand up palm out shoulder height. Now rotate the hips to the left. What happens to the hand...absolutely nothing. The same thing that happens to the bat when the top hand trys to come forward with hip turn.

Do the same thing with a loaded scapula and then get back with me.

Dan

[fungo22]

That there was Dan the Man. Good post. Nice hearing from you. Looking forward to late in 2008 when you get riled, get rowdy and post your next one.

[swingbuster]

Do the same thing with a loaded scapula and then get back with me.

I'm back Dan with loaded scap and turning hips and it still doesn't connect the top hand to the rotation at launch nor does it make the batter connect the bottom hand.

Once again....the poor swings posted have the top hand pulling the knob forward. Loading the rear scaps doesn't make that any better ... top hand starting position can however.

As I was reading item 2. I knew you were a FP guy.

[Mark H]

Or you should just say what you think is happening

If I say it again that will just light off your's and Tom's fuse and I'm just too tired and busy to keep giving Medusa a haircut. Maybe the Marshall moonies over on eteamz have taken it all out of me.



We can say what we know.... more than you can do with your gag order

Gag order? If you are talking about setpro, that's ancient history. No gag order, I just don't think arguing with you or Tom is productive.

[Mark H]

I really don't get what is so hard to see. Most of the greatest players past and present do this and it has been posted many times...when the bat goes vertical...tipping or not from the catchers view the bottom hand is under the top. When the BHUT then the lead elbow is down and the rear up and top hand pronated ( sloping down like your pouring water out of it). As long as you stay BHUT you cannot bring your hands forward. When the shoulder rotation starts the top hand moves back not forward. when your hands turn over your bottom hand leads...mechanism.....

THis is a big difference. Mankins explains it well and his sales make anything setpro did look like a kid brother ...without the attitude is course.

A good guy, good info, a real website, a real DVD in it's box, a good price, and the best explanation of upper body info.

If Steve can teach you core mechanics fine ...you might be even better . But unless you lead with the bottom hand ( which few kids do well) you have problems.

My simple mission in this post...show/ reveal how to use the top hand at launch so as not to pull it forward.

What is so hard about trying that??

And what age group and level of talent are you using this teaching methodology with?

[DanC]

I am not inclined to get in a big long debate about this stuff as I can find other ways to spend my time. I do enjoy reading these threads and get quite a chuckle from time to time. It is a great way for me to relieve some stress,as they say laughter is the best medicine.:dance

I do admire the passion and time people put into these debates, but I learned a long time ago that some people are willing to learn (keep an open mind) and others are just looking for confirmation of their belief systems.


I'm back Dan with loaded scap and turning hips and it still doesn't connect the top hand to the rotation at launch nor does it make the batter connect the bottom hand.

Are your shoulders rotating with the hips? Did you load the hips as well?
If you loaded the scap and kept the tension/ load then I don't see how the top hand/arm did not move with the shoulders.

I don't believe I said that the loaded scap (top hand arm) would make the batter connect the botom hand.

It only takes a little common sense to figure out how to connect the bottom hand arm to the rotation. How would you connect the bottom hand?

Throwing or rotating the barrell backwards doesn't do it.

If you didn't have a top hand/arm , could you connect your bottom hand to the rotation?






As I was reading item 2. I knew you were a FP guy.


As a matter of fact I am primarily a fastpitch pitching instructor. I have also been coaching fastpitch teams off and on for about the last 23 years or so.

And your point is??

I can tell you that when we were primarily going with Epstein/Mankin mechanics that we woud mash the ball against avg to mediocre pitching. I remember a game where we had 3 HR's in the first inning on our way to a 3 inning 12-0 rout. All of these balls going aroud 230-250 feet (fences were at 225).Both pitchers they used were getting the ball about thigh high to waist high and we had no problems.

This was followed by 2 back to back bracket games where we faced a little better pitching. 2nd game she mixed up the pitches a little better and we struggle to win that game 3-1.

3rd game the pitcher threw hard and low on the outside corner, (as an aside to that most FP umps, especially in N Tx will give the pitcher 1 and a half to 2 balls off the plate) and we failed to score even though she really didn't have a lot of movement.

This was enough to convince me that THT and slotting the elbow was NOT the way to go.

Later,
Dan

[Mark H]

Dan,

Good post.

Would you mind emailing me at mark_h45@hotmail.com

Thanks,
Mark

[tom.guerry]

Mark,Scott and any others who find value in setpro-

I would HIGHLY recommend you go back to setpro and study the overhand throw/pitching info some more. Most of the answers as to why "PCR" is inadequate for hitting (is unlikely to accelerate learning of high level mlb pattern) is there.

PCR makes adequate coil/separation imposssible which makes early batspeed impossible.

The sequence of arm action, how weight shift can synch (diferent timing for hitting), middle out coordination of upper and lower body is the SAME in the overhand throw, and more stretched out and easier to see.

Wieght shift synch is different. Golf is the best source for understanding weight shift and swing plane and "vertical loading".

Overhand throw,however, shows how to coil, how upper and lower body timing is accomplished and how up/dowm "adjustment" is made.

In BOTH the overhand throw and hitting. the "arm slot" is not just "tilting the torso" (sound familiar). Arm slot depends on torso tilt and MORE IMPORTANTLY, back scap position.

HIgh ball hitting is like high arm slot overhand throw.

Low arm slot ("sidearm" is more like "low ball hitting"/Slaught description).

HOWEVER, the basic loading/unloading arm action SEQUENCE, must be retained as it it must in the power overhand throw,where in any case, back arm internal rotation must be the motion associated with rapid acceleration with extension being secondary.

"turning the legs and hips together" or "turning the back hip into the front" or "keeping the front foot closed" will mess up the hitting sequence just like it messes up throwing.

The front leg must turn open first,then the hips and only then the back leg. Upper body/arm action is necessary to continue the coiling/keep the back leg from prematurely rotating (see Zig motionanalysis).

Only in this way can adequate coil/separation work upward without interruption and drive the handpath efficiently.

As Dixon and then Nyman discovered, you MUST look to throwing to understand hitting. They are just unable to apply the learning accurately.

IF you know enough about hitting, then you too can learn throwing and the "right" way to apply the sequence there.

Kids can learn the sequence best ina good overhand throw then aplly this to hitting. That is the easiest/best way to learn.

"PCR" is NOT on the road to the high level pattern, it is a DETOUR.

It may suffice with metal bats,but that is a different issue.

Once you understand the sequence, then it becomes a fairly simple "mechanical" affair to guide analysis and teaching.

IF you know that the back arm needs to supinate and externally rotate in synch with the lead leg and that the hips and back leg need to be insequence to coil right, then you can work back to the beginning of the motion (inward turn) and make sure the hips coil on the back leg,that the back arm pronates,that the back arm internally rotates,that the lead arm gets in close for later internal rotation,etc,etc.

If these things are NOT done in preparation/early, then a high level swing becomes EXTREMELY unlikely.

Learn the necessity of understanding throwing mechanics from Dixon and setpro, BUT also learn to apply them right to hitting.

Again the real tricky part once you have done this is to understand weight shift synch and swing plane effect of this which is ONLY understood in golf.

[ssarge]

(as an aside to that most FP umps, especially in N Tx will give the pitcher 1 and a half to 2 balls off the plate)
I wish that was unique to your region.

It isn;t. Which is why most elite FP hitters end up VERY close to the plate (look at the Benyi HR clip on this site a few weeks back - her feet are on the battr's box line.) And one of the reasons why FP hitters do less w/ their arms than their male peers. Except for the BEST male peers, who don;t do much either. Though as you assert, it gets talked about a lot.


Your developmental process dovetails very closely with mine. Sounds as if you "got it" more quickly than I did.

Best regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Dan,

Would you mind emailing me at mark_h45@hotmail.com

Mark, I see you working!

Best,

Scott

[swingbuster]

It only takes a little common sense to figure out how to connect the bottom hand arm to the rotation. How would you connect the bottom hand?

Dan...no offense...cudos to long term coaches

Please explain to the kids that put the barrel back and start their swing and their top hand is pulling the bat how to connect the bottom hand. These kids are very top hand dominant. You could turn them around LH and all of their swings look better by video ; they just cannot hit the bat as well from over there.

I have explained a way to do that and it works.

Girls might have more trouble there with relative arm strength issues I could not speak to that with the limited time I have spend with them.

Nobody is against rotation. The top hand cannot move the bat with rotation if " under the uniform" that is what is happening

[ssarge]

In BOTH the overhand throw and hitting. the "arm slot" is not just "tilting the torso" (sound familiar). Arm slot depends on torso tilt and MORE IMPORTANTLY, back scap position.

Tom,

I don't know about "MORE" importantly. That aside, are you of the opinion that anyone doubts the importance of this? The scapular action is important, but NOT URGENT in the developmental process. Englishbey spends much time here - on his CDs, and in personal instruction. Unlike Epstein, BTW (it is what it is). You need to see Steve's work.


Learning how to load the scaps is hugely important. Mainly because it takes the top hand OUT of the equation, and eliminates pushing as the hitter turns the corner. You probably think it does more than that, and that's fine. Whatever it DOES do, it IS important.

It is NOT as important as learning how to rotate from the middle. And it is much easier to add proper scapular action if the hitter DOES know how to turn from the middle. The opposite would be absurd. Learning to rotate is JOB ONE. It is NOT automatic. And it takes time, and should be tackled as a unique and isolated problem. Which demands a solution. Complicating it with other factors makes it easy to compensate for the inability to rotate from the middle by involving other actions that mask the deficiency. And it is VERY hard to go back and fix later.


Nor is proper scapular loading as important as creating good overall posture, and using that posture to make MUCH of the necessary pitch adjustment prior to launch.

Once those things are solidly in place, proper scapular action is a logical next step. In this, I agree w/ Epstein. Unlike Steve, though, Epstein doesn;t show you how to do it. In fact, he describes the WRONG way to do it - namely, counter rotating.


What I feel you sometimes miss, Tom, is that there HAS to be a developmental process in place with young hitters. Well, you seem to "get it" Ok w/ Epstein, who you say is a great foundation. But then your comments and posts about young hitters always compare them to the best hittrs in the world. That seems inconsistent.


Now, you may well disagree - apparently do - w/ what the develomental pattern may be. But apples and apples have to be considered. And I don't think you are applying that principle consistently.


As for checking posts at Setpro - I have the same access there as you do - which is none. Although I paid for access, I was nontheless cut off. Haven't received my 1.3 upgrade either, though I paid for it. Or the medicine ball that came bundles w/ my hitting system. (Not that I want a medicine ball, but I DID pay for it).

I guess I'm going to have to call the local CT police like everyone else. Unbelievable way to do business.

Regards,

Scott

[ssarge]

Girls might have more trouble there with relative arm strength issues I could not speak to that with the limited time I have spend with them.
12 and 14 YO girls play on fields w/ the same fence distances as college, and put balls out pretty regularly.

At the top levels, the 14 YO girls are doing so against basically the same pitch speed they will see in college (or NPF, for that matter). And in fact, are doing it against a pitcher standing 3' closer than she will be in college or pro.

Arm strength for these 13 and 14 YO hitters is not really an issue, because they don't much use the arms.

This is what it is, Donny. The above is an accurate portrayal.

Best regards,

Scott

[DanC]

Dan...no offense...cudos to long term coaches


No offense taken pesonally nor no offense to you either.

The main reason I posted was I have seen you on more than 1 occasion make reference to FP as if it was easier to hit or did not require as high level swing mechanics to reach the Elite level. I beg to differ.

As Scott said, there are 12 YO pitchers that can and do bring it up to around 60mph, from 40 feet. That aint much time. If you can slot your elbow while using THT and not be late to the ball, I will tip my hat to you, and then see how you deal with the change up.

Once again, if you didn't have a top hand/arm could you connect your bottom hand to the rotation?

[Ohfor]

...

PCR makes adequate coil/separation imposssible which makes early batspeed impossible.



Simply not true so I didn't have to read the rest of the post.

Thank you for lying so early in the tom.longpost.

[DanC]

I wish that was unique to your region.


Best regards,

Scott

I know it's not unique to my area and the zone does vary somewhat from region to region. Haven't played out the left coast since about 89 (18U Nat's in Lodi).

I can tell you that there is a difference in zones fron Dallas area and Houston as well. If I am wearing my pitching coach hat, I enjoy the zone in Dallas and if I am wearing the Team hat, I much prefer Houstons zone.:rolleyes:

What really gets me is they want the whole ball over the plate on the inside and give 2 balls outside. Just give both corners with some part of the ball having to touch some part of the plate...


Dan

[hiddengem]

hiddengem,

did you see Piazza's two hits last night? how they relate to this article:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060225/news_1s25padres.html

here's video link to his HR:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060404&content_id=1382992&vkey=news_sd&fext=.jsp&c_id=sd


but the single to left was just as impressive, and a better example.

Yea, I was going to bring up the facts in this article when I had time. Another thing to add to it is that Mike can put a tennis ball in each hand, squeeze and pop them both.

Unfortunatley, most folks will never reach a level where they can truely understand the importance of hand/forearm strength. I think its a dead issue around here.

[Mark H]

Keep in mind the difference between developing a kid from the ground up versus improving a hitter who is already good enough to be hanging around you and your peers. Talk about rotation, hand strength, BHUT, arm action etc with the average 12-14 year old they hear something ENTIRELY different from what you and your peers hear even though the words are the same.

[swingbuster]

Once again, if you didn't have a top hand/arm could you connect your bottom hand to the rotation?

Agreed Dan.. you just must do the right thing with the top hand in an instant and it is either helping or interfering. Hand set , even slightly vertical seems to help

[LClifton]

Are your shoulders rotating with the hips? Did you load the hips as well?
If you loaded the scap and kept the tension/ load then I don't see how the top hand/arm did not move with the shoulders.
Dan can you help me with the load the hips part of this? (Michelle Smith style?)

Dan, Scott, Mark H.,

Strike zones...man could we talk about that at length?
The issue of a ball outside (for a strike call) that has NOT crossed any part of the plate is frustrating.
Simply throw a drop 4-6" outside and live there.

Your hitters have a hard time "chasing" those pitches all game long?

And as stated by Dan, the deeper in the bracket you go the more the pitchers just seem to pound it outside...Even if they don't get the calls early in the game, from my experience it seems the pitcher adjusts about a ball width and then goes right back out there in the later innings.

Then a pitcher busts one inside, freezing the hitter, and it seems to "surprise" the ump and is not called for a strike. In addition to having your hitters stand on the plate, it seems like you just hope for a mistake.

LClifton

[LClifton]

Agreed Dan.. you just must do the right thing with the top hand in an instant and it is either helping or interfering. Hand set , even slightly vertical seems to help

Donnie,

Bhut ---bat angled to pitcher
/


bottom hand ahead of top bat angled to catcher
\

Vertical
|

Great graphics huh?

Do you think the scap loading has anything to do with getting the hands into the position you describe?
I know we've knocked on this door before, but do you think its more important to just have the bottom hand under top or to have it done via a good scap load?

LClifton

[swingbuster]

LC

Do you think the scap loading has anything to do with getting the hands into the position you describe?
I know we've knocked on this door before, but do you think its more important to just have the bottom hand under top or to have it done via a good scap load

Great point LC...critical point...

Can you load the scaps and keep them loaded without the top hand pronated and the lead elbow closer to chest and bottom hand thumb up...I cannot and especially rotate them back on a plane I want to be on.

I have learned much from setpro stuff...really...bottom hand connection and
scap loading...really...but don't mistake this( scap loading) for turning the shoulder UNIT around the spinal axis and keeping the UNIT back until the hips rotate into toe touch or establish a base to prime the torso.

[Ohfor]

...lead elbow closer to chest...

I've posted around 12 swings proving this doesn't happen. I can post more if need be. Or repost them here.

What world do you live in? The World of Denial?

I asked for just one clip showing that it does.

Nothing.

[swingbuster]

and your a complete Dumb A$$ because you posted Arod who has that arm action and from the side you cannot see it. You posted the players that do not load like that and half the HOF does. So what did you prove

Your son throws RH and bats LH and you say that means nothing... again a complete dumba$$

And nobody can get the bat in the same position with two different lead elbow positions

Take your one student to your one teacher and use your one swing and have a good life.

[Mark H]

You posted the players that do not load like that and half the HOF does. So what did you prove?

.

Maybe he proved it's not an absolute?

[swingbuster]

Maybe he proved it's not an absolute?

Never said it was...he tried to prove it doesn't exist as usual because his son doesn't have that problem

I offer it as a mechanism to connect the bottom hand to the turn...that is an absolute.

We see kids dragging the bat often... clearly that is top hand leading at launch. Dads cannot get them to stop ...why? dominant top hand just like throwing....not rocket science.

What can't you just do bottom hand drills and fix it ? When they see a ball they react with what is dominant.

Change the hand set / bat position and they do better THIS YEAR. Or you can retrain the dominant hand and even learn to throw with your opposite hand if you like and are willing to put in three years

[DanC]

Agreed Dan.. you just must do the right thing with the top hand in an instant and it is either helping or interfering. Hand set , even slightly vertical seems to help

That was not a statement on my part it was a question.

Do you think that there can be a connected bottom hand if there is no top hand?

I take it you do not think so?

Can you figure out a way to get the bottom hand connected to the rotation without using the top hand?

[DanC]

Dan can you help me with the load the hips part of this? (Michelle Smith style?)



Yes the way Michelle does it is one way to load the hips. Coil-uncoil. Load-unload. Stride to a loaded position, etc.

Later,
Dan

[swingbuster]

Can you figure out a way to get the bottom hand connected to the rotation without using the top hand?

The best way I have found is put the top hand in a location where it cannot lead and during the turn the bottom hand has the bat. The slotting rear elbow breaks the bat inertia and gets it acclerating around the hands as the shoulder turns around the body.

Careful with words like hip coil and load....blasphemy around here because I use them too

Stride to a loaded position

I like that better than forward by turning as a cue

Back to Clifton....stride to a loaded position can mean stride keeping the upper body loaded or while loading as in many cases. It applies to hips and shoulders

[ssarge]

Yea, I was going to bring up the facts in this article when I had time. Another thing to add to it is that Mike can put a tennis ball in each hand, squeeze and pop them both.
I'll bet there are soccer players who can do the same thing. And plenty of great hitters who can't.

David, everyone is listening, still. You just haven't made the case on this - yet.

Best regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

strong core muscles turn harder, strong hands usually mean powerful forearms, which means better bat handle torque.

I have little doubt of the benefit. I actually look at hand size and strength when coaching kids to gauge the possibilities

[LClifton]

Can you load the scaps and keep them loaded without the top hand pronated and the lead elbow closer to chest and bottom hand thumb up...I cannot and especially rotate them back on a plane I want to be on.

With the top hand Pronated?
As in turned downward?
Sure you can load the scap without pronation of the top hand but why would you not want your top hand to be near pronation?
6726

Bottom hand thumb up.....
O.K. I have to admit that if I load the scap, top hand NEAR pronation, if I were to open my bottom hand, the thumb would be pointing up...

Lead elbow closer to chest.........
If I load the scap, it doesn't really pull the lead elbow closer to the chest as much as it stretches it back slightly (towards the back of the body), then when I tilt the elbow moves very slightly away from the chest.

I cannot and especially rotate them back on a plane I want to be on.
How is the plane being established? By the hands? Or by something else?
6727
LClifton

[swingbuster]

If I load the scap, it doesn't really pull the lead elbow closer to the chest as much as it stretches it back slightly (towards the back of the body), then when I tilt the elbow moves very slightly away from the chest

I will buy that I think. I don't think it pulls it closer either..it is more natural for the lead elbow to come down as the rear goes up and back. These elbow positions set up a powerful shoulder turn that allows the hips to lead as a small delay is built into the shoulder release as the hands must turn back on plane. It is a delay but certainly not slop ...it is dynamic stretch or tension that powers the swing.

Sure you can load the scap without pronation of the top hand but why would you not want your top hand to be near pronation?


BRAVO!!!!

Thanks for the image and support.

It might help some lurkers trying to get the Hand set/ bat set that helps players keep the shoulder loaded to foot plant and on a plane that can hit more pitch locations IMO.

[ssarge]

Donny:

I seriously am looking for an answer to my post number 20 on this thread - "How many of your guys are signed?" I just modified that post. I was pleased that another of our girls signed yesterday, and we now have 6 (of our 9 seniors) signed. FOUR in D1.

I think this is a fair question, because you talk a lot about the results your guys are getting. Which is great, and to your credit. But is it being recognized at the next level?

Best,

Scott

[wogdoggy]

Swingy after months of asking to see your hitters you never oblige.WHY? Don't you want to shut up ohfor once and for all? It would be nice NOT to hear him ask you for a clip EVERYDAY!

PLEASE.lol:laugh

[swingbuster]

seriously am looking for an answer to my post number 20 on this thread - "How many of your guys are signed?" I just modified that post. I was pleased that another of our girls signed yesterday, and we now have 6 (of our 9 seniors) signed. FOUR in D1.

I think this is a fair question, because you talk a lot about the results your guys are getting. Which is great, and to your credit. But is it being recognized at the next level?

We have two guys that can sign larger school out of 13. One D-1 probably. He is better than Terry Leach at the same age , the last guy that played MLB from here and pitched once in the Worlds Series for the 92 Twins. Questionable commitment. Football QB 6-2 185 great pitcher and leading team batting.

One hard worker that practiced year round as a pitcher.

3 that could play JUCO now.

Two 10 graders that are JUCO at least .


What they will do ..who knows. This is a football town and State.

Different world Scott. These kids play 2 and many cases three sports and many other activities. Our HS is not what you are used to as far as commitment..there is not enough time. We cannot start getting pitchers ready at Christmas. They won the 3A State Championship in football a few months ago and the pitchers have to start slowly to avoid injury

The HR yesterday was off bad pitching and the kid was at 3-2 or 2-2 can't remember the exact count. But the bases were loaded and yes he piped it. Bad idea and yes he hit it off the foul pole fair in left. This is the special kid that can play D-1



our girls signed yesterday

Whose girls...all from one team? That is very good indeed. I know you know what your doing. I have never doubted that.

Do they play most of the year or do they play basketball and other sports?

Best of luck in the future too

Donny

[ShawnB]

OK, I would like to point out that Piazza uses extension in his swing. This is his natural swing, extension.

As far as the BHUT. To me it feels good and I actually use it to keep "from" uses the top hand to much. I use it to keep from using the top hand to early, so it is a way of keeping the hands in or cocked. With it my hands remain cocked longer, wrists remain straight. I still have to much THT, which I have to work on keeping the hands in and from starting to swing to soon. So, I'm working on stopping THT. I don't think it helps THT, as I'm using it to prevent THT. I agree with Jack that the top hand circles around the bottom hand as shown in his video with John Elliot. I don't believe in THT persay, or that you should have it in your swing, other then the top hand circling around the bottom hand. Even with someone like Sheffield the wrists remain cocked as he brings the bat back, and the hands stay in. The top hand does not begin to early and send the bat backwards. Rotation brings the hands around and causes what might look like THT. .

[ShawnB]

BTW, the Hank Aaron picture is a good example of what I try to do, keep the hands cocked and in. And preventing early THT by having the bat cocked forward.

This picture is a good launch position to start from. From here the top hand will circle around the bottom hand, but it will not start the bat backward to early. Excellent loaded position. Great picture at toe touch.

[swingbuster]

BTW, the Hank Aaron picture is a good example of what I try to do, keep the hands cocked and in. And preventing early THT by having the bat cocked forward.

This picture is a good launch position to start from. From here the top hand will circle around the bottom hand, but it will not start the bat backward to early. Excellent loaded position. Great picture at toe touch.

No steriods, great technique, ....why would people ignore the physics involved in what that man accomplished?

As far as the BHUT. To me it feels good and I actually use it to keep "from" uses the top hand to much

Keep top hand unleveraged at launch connects bottom hand to rotation. Increases chances of a CHP and better bat displacement

[LClifton]

I will buy that I think. I don't think it pulls it closer either..it is more natural for the lead elbow to come down as the rear goes up and back.

I think I missed something. Isn't this what the disagreement was about? The position of the lead elbow?

I think the picture of Aaron shows that his lead elbow is not against his body.
neither is the lead elbow against the body here
6745

6750

6747

6748

6749
Back to Clifton....stride to a loaded position can mean stride keeping the upper body loaded or while loading as in many cases. It applies to hips and shoulders
I think just the opposite most are loaded before they stride. It appears.

If I missed the point it wouldn't be the first time...:crazy


LClifton

[Ohfor]

Neither is it against Arod's chest.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/2/Arodside.gif

But this SMF wants you to believe what he says they do rather than what they do.

Just one clip Swingy. Otherwise, your credibility is down the tube.

[swingbuster]

Otherwise, your credibility is down the tube.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intelligent people get it Ofher......even you


Try the front view Ray Charles and you will see his lead elbow come down closer to chest vs stay up in the swing plane like your son and BHUT loading to connect the bottom hand and rotate the bat head around the hands

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=284&st=90#entry4067318

[Ohfor]

...you will see his lead elbow come down closer to chest...

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=284&st=90#entry4067318

Now it's closer to his chest. Last week/month it was "pressed against the chest".

What is it next week Mr. Wonder?

That forearm is perpendicular to his spine, or very near it throughout most of the swing....until he decides to swing at a pitch way out of the strike zone. Never once does it approach "against his chest".

Damn that video.

[wogdoggy]

But this SMF wants you to believe what he says they do rather than what they do.


stupid what what? lol.you are brutal.:laugh


IT GETTING MORE OBVIOUS SWINGY WILL NEVER EVER POST A VIDEO.WHY SWINGY WHY?
Is your agenda different then everybody's else here?
Its not like your pushing your HBH here .

[swingbuster]

the relaxed lead elbow hangs below the perp to spine line when loading dumb dumb. The spine angle sets it out from the pect muscle.

Why are you worried about the details of loading.....move the middle man, drop the rear elbow early and swing from the back side .....it will work fine for you

Its not like your pushing your HBH here .

Your right.... I don't have to do that. That is not why I am here. You guys can't read the clips you have

I think just the opposite most are loaded before they stride. It appears.

You are right...forward by turning backwards would be better

[Sultan_1895-1948]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intelligent people get it Ofher......even you


Try the front view Ray Charles and you will see his lead elbow come down closer to chest vs stay up in the swing plane like your son and BHUT loading to connect the bottom hand and rotate the bat head around the hands

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=284&st=90#entry4067318

Is the whole issue about whether Arod rotates his hands, arms and upper body back together? I don't see that in the clip.

Nice clip. All you same guys post on that site too? One just wasn't enough huh ;)

[Ohfor]

...the relaxed lead elbow hangs below the perp to spine line when loading...

Simply a fabrication of his mind.

Do I need to put up all the clips again. Ursa criticized me for putting them up there too often.

Hey Ursa, it's not for me and you. It's for the newbies. They probably don't look back much beyond when they registered.

The good news is, most of the posters can see through this BS.

[wogdoggy]

Your right.... I don't have to do that. That is not why I am here. You guys can't read the clips you have


He won't even address the clip request..WHY swingy?Im just curious WHY you won't and or don't post them..NO I AM NOT part of the "POSSE" but being on the outside looking in you have other agendas..would that be to discredit somebody elses stuff? Whats the dilio?:confused:

dont think I dont appreciate you taking the time to look at my kids swing,,I do..But honestly why NOT just SHUT HIM UP...?do you have the ammo or not?

makes the outsiders wonder..thats all

[ssarge]

Donny:

Thank you for the kind words. To answer your questions:

I am involved w/ my daughters High School team, and her Club Team.

High school play is far below the Club Play, which I'm sure is true most everywhere. I would say our Club Team would be very competitive with the All League team from our 10 team High School conference. In fact, the Club team might well win.

The Club Team is comprised of 15 girls from probably 11-12 different High Schools. It is an 18Gold team in ASA play. Softball is not quite as fragmented as baseball in terms of the alphabet soup of sanctions and levels. !8Gold play is pretty clearly the level you want to get to if you want to play in college.

Frankly, we're not near the top of the 18Gold tier. Probably closer to the other end. But we're a second year team, young, and growing.

Some of the girls play year-round softball, others play multiple sports. One sophomore on our team already has 6 Varsity letters - she'll get 12 - and she plays for the local Catholic High School sports factory (Carondolet High School). Had a late start in softball this year as her basketball team played in the California State Championship game (they lost). This is the sister school to De la Salle, the owner of the High School football all time record win streak - 151 in a row, and #1 in the country 4 of 5 years (USA Today poll). I take your point with players like this - she could be absolutely splendid as a softball player, instead of just very good. But she is also very good at volleyball and basketball.


It sounds as if your team is doing well, which is what I wanted to ascertain. Congrats to you. Ultimately, I evaluate my own success as a hitting coach on whether players improve. And I'm pretty brutal in that self-analysis, as I think it is a far basis for self-analysis - basically, we are all working w/ the hand dealt to us. So the question isn;t "how good are our hitters?" The right question - or so it seems to me - is "how much better are our hitters today as compared to a year ago?" Do you see this the same way?


Were you pleased that your number 4 hit a "piped" pitch off the Foul Pole - or did you want him to take it up the middle? (kidding, a little).

Best regards,

Scott

[swingbuster]

The right question - or so it seems to me - is "how much better are our hitters today as compared to a year ago?" Do you see this the same way?

Yes...of course. In my favor is about 10-15 more lbs of muscle on average. The confidence of winning the state football champiosnship. A good youth coach base of training in some cases.

On the down side and what people do not seem to get. I get three weeks one hour a day with 13 kids and the season starts. I know these kids so we are close on terms etc but that is little time. I had to find the obvious deficit and work on it within the confines of their basic swing.
Weight shift and hand set/ loading cues where the obvious place.

Are they better...sure...but they were pretty good before. I have used them as an example not to exault me but to get a point across about the two things that helped them . There are more kids willing to get the bandaid than the remake based on time and level of commitment.


Remember the population densities i.e. 38 million people in CA. We would have to expand our search about 100- 200 miles in a circle to make an All Star team like you describe.

Jake Peavy came from Seemes, Al about 120 miles south. We would take him and play most people...what do you think??






Were you pleased that your number 4 hit a "piped" pitch off the Foul Pole - or did you want him to take it up the middle? (kidding, a little).

I knew he was licking his chops at the slow pitcher. I called him over and told him to narrow up his stance a bit as he would be drawn out by the slow speed and I wanted him to have some pop left. He was still ahead of the ball and it was hooking. But, I would have been proud to have hit it for sure.

[swingbuster]

Damn that video

Ofher ..do you cook hamburgers and clips.

Give me a cheeseburger and a side of " cooked clips" to go please. What good are clips if you show the ones of players that do not do what we are discussing ? Or the view that doesn't show it and deny the action that has put people on the HOF.

This is the same action that many MLB player claim makes them sucessful but you say they are not in touch with their own "reality" and they are just confused about why they are great.

That takes brass balls man.....but hey you got em for sure

[wogdoggy]

cant we just get you two guys a set of 40 oz boxing gloves?:noidea

[Ohfor]

... What good are clips if you show the ones of players that do not do what we are discussing ? Or the view that doesn't show it and deny the action that has put people on the HOF.

That takes brass balls man.....but hey you got em for sure

Great argument by the SMF.

Blame me for not putting up clips that support his cause.

Like I'm the only guy that can do that. I'm the only guy with server space. I'm the only guy with clips.

Well, I don't have any such clips.......And neither does he..............or he'd post them.

Please show me your clip of the guy with his lead elbow pressed against his chest. Those are your words. They must be true. Show it.

[Ohfor]

...but they were pretty good before.

And now you're "adding on"?

Just like I've said for a year now.

Although, since you refuse to post clips of them we can't be sure about what you're adding on to.

[retkag]

On the down side and what people do not seem to get. I get three weeks one hour a day with 13 kids and the season starts. I know these kids so we are close on terms etc but that is little time. I had to find the obvious deficit and work on it within the confines of their basic swing.

This a great point and the bottom line is how do I get these kids hitting better right NOW!

Swingbuster also brought a point that might be worth some thinking about.
I have been noticing some different swing characteristics when comparing.

RH thrower RH hitter
RH thrower LH hitter

LH thrower LH hitter.

retkag

[LClifton]

Donnie this is what I said:
I think just the opposite most are loaded before they stride. It appears
You are right...forward by turning backwards would be better
And your interpretation was this???? Forward by turning backwards?
You guys can't read the clips you have
Misinterpretation.

Now it's closer to his chest. Last week/month it was "pressed against the chest".
Donnie, This is what you said. I thought, incorrectly, that we had perhaps established a middle ground.
Try the front view Ray Charles and you will see his lead elbow come down closer to chest vs stay up in the swing plane like your son
When?
Your words Donnie:
"The front elbow should start low, rear elbow high, then they reverse during the swing." The A-Rod clip clearly shows that his lead elbow does not move down during his swing. It stays up, perpendicular to, and away from his chest, according to the clip "we" can't read.
and BHUT loading to connect the bottom hand and rotate the bat head around the hands
There are points made in my previous post that I agreed with things you said, regarding only the top hand in the set up.
But simply putting the bottom hand under top will not promote connection.
Connection is a difficult issue at best, in young hitters, until they learn the proper initiation of the swing, (which we can agree to disagree on) they will have trouble connecting the hands to the shoulder rotation.
Call the top hand "unleveraged" if you choose (and that may be accurate) Retkag's post is a very good observation regarding RH throw LH batters, etc. One of the best high school hitters here is going to Arizona next year, she throws right and bats left. Those hitters may not have to overcome the top hand dominance issue.
But if the swing is not initiated from the middle the hands will usually turn flat and immediate disconnection will occur. THT puts the back elbow quickly into the side and what is left to power the swing?

LClifton

[tom.guerry]

"forward by turning backwards" is, of course just a "cue".

BUT it is a better description of the reality than Dixon's who said that the torso turns the lower body/hips forward, thinking that the center of gravity of the body drifted off then back toward the target line.

My understanding from the Nymanites (which could certainly be wrong) is that the "approved" forward by turning description is that the body turned back and forward while the bodies center goes forward on a line ("alignment").

[LClifton]

"forward by turning backwards" is, of course just a "cue".
Is it? who do you use it with?
Do you mean you go forward (shift) then fall (lean) backwards while turning.

BUT it is a better description of the reality than Dixon's who said that the torso turns the lower body/hips forward, thinking that the center of gravity of the body drifted off then back toward the target line.

My understanding from the Nymanites (which could certainly be wrong) is that the "approved" forward by turning description is that the body turned back and forward while the bodies center goes forward on a line ("alignment").
Tom, maybe not just for me, but could you take another run at this?
Respectfully, I don't get a visual of what you're saying.

LClifton

[tom.guerry]

Sure,Clif-

In throwing and hitting, you can think of the body going forward and turning at the same time like a top where the center of gravity does not drift off to one side or another.

Instead of just spinning in one direction,however,the body continues to turn back then forward after the whole body/center of mass/gravity has started going forward - this can be seen on clips often as showing more back pocket as the back scap is pinching ("hand cock " phase of swing) after whole body has started forward.

The Dixon description of the torso as turning things is a very poor one in my opinion.

[swingbuster]

Forward by turning assumes you have loaded something to release. many players shown have not loaded backwards . The coiling of the hips and positioning of the shoulders begins to happen in repsonse to the pitchers windup.

If it is wrong then the turning out is in trouble. Ted Williams( once again ) said the coiling of the hips AS YOU STRIDE TO HIT is the hardest part of baseball.

As far as the lead elbow directly against the side ...not an issue with me and I see your point...granted...the movement pattern of the lead elbow down in synch with rear up and reversing coincides with the barrel loading to more vertical and the thumbs to the ear of sky depending on how vertical you go.

[Ohfor]

Forward by turning assumes you have loaded something to release

No, forward by turning is loading.

As far as the lead elbow directly against the side ...not an issue with me and I see your point...granted...the movement pattern of the lead elbow down in synch with rear up and reversing coincides with the barrel loading to more vertical and the thumbs to the ear of sky depending on how vertical you go.

No, but yes. No, really. Yes. Never. I'm convinced it's true but it might not be. Most of us do, but most of us don't. I do, but I don't. If my audience likes it, yes. If they don't, no. It's absolute, but few do it. Video? What video? Doctored video only?

"Want a ride?"

"Dad's up town!"

[DanC]

The best way I have found is put the top hand in a location where it cannot lead and during the turn the bottom hand has the bat. The slotting rear elbow breaks the bat inertia and gets it acclerating around the hands as the shoulder turns around the body.

Careful with words like hip coil and load....blasphemy around here because I use them too

So if I don't have a top hand then it cannot lead. During the turn the bottom hand as you say has the bat...Without a top hand , I would say the bottom hand has the bat all the way. What say you?

Without a top hand, I dont think it matters what I do with the back elbow.

[swingbuster]

So if I don't have a top hand then it cannot lead. During the turn the bottom hand as you say has the bat...Without a top hand , I would say the bottom hand has the bat all the way. What say you?

Tell it to a top hand dominant kid that grabs the bat and pulls it forward. I get it.........

No, but yes. No, really. Yes. Never. I'm convinced it's true but it might not be. Most of us do, but most of us don't. I do, but I don't. If my audience likes it, yes. If they don't, no. It's absolute, but few do it.

Ofher you better stay with MOOOOOOVE the middle.....that is complicated enough to take you through 2006 and beyond

[LClifton]

Anyone,???

If the back elbow breaks the inertia of the bat,,,,,

It seems that this would be the start of a top hand dominant swing?

Or, does the back elbow start its downward movement without using the top hand to do so?

Do you think that the elbow breaks the inertia to get the barrel moving or could it be something else?

Please comment.

LClifton

[tom.guerry]

See:

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds01.mpeg

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Guerrero01.mpeg

[Steve Englishbey]

Something else...........as in if I am kicking a ball I do not focus on my toes to increase power and efficiency.

steve

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Something else...........as in if I am kicking a ball I do not focus on my toes to increase power and efficiency.

steve

Or that you don't need to firm up your ankle, because it's just "along for the right."

[LClifton]

Please take a second to read this.
AS you look at this, read it out loud.
6792









Be honest, when you read it did you miss something?


So, what breaks the inertia of the bat, is it the rear elbow or something else?
Can you really see? or Do we only see what we are programed to see?

LClifton


p.s. I'll be honest, I missed it the first time.

[4for4]

Please take a second to read this.


I went cross-eyed and still can't see it. In fact, I can't see anything right now. For all I know I am typing the recipe for a chocolate cake.

[swingbuster]

If the back elbow breaks the inertia of the bat,,,,,

From a thumbs up hand set the slotting of the rear elbow breaks the inertia sending the bat barrel into the back side of the swing toward the catcher



It seems that this would be the start of a top hand dominant swing?

On the contrare it prevents top hand dominance

The shoulder rotation starts and the elbow positional change ( maintaining the box early in the rotation) applies unconscience hand torque to the bat handle IF your in a more vertical slot

Or, does the back elbow start its downward movement without using the top hand to do so?

Since you cannot swing directly to the ball from the Aaron slot your bat barrel movement to the launch slot occurs by elbow action...rear down and lead up...you don't feel the rear hand pulling the handle down and back but that is what happens



Do you think that the elbow breaks the inertia to get the barrel moving or could it be something else?

The high rear elbow weighs quite a bit. When it moves down there is considerable energy supplied applied to the bat handle through the top hand

Please comment.

THere are two ways you can pull the barrel with the rear hand

1. consciencely forward competing with the bottom hand for control...disaster

2. back to catcher in the back part of the swing arc unconsciencely and secondary to the slotting rear elbow....correct

Or you can tell the kid to just use his bottom hand and he won't do it right

OR you can get 9 guys that bat left and throw right.

OBTW does Steve throw right handed or LH ...I think he bats left ...correct? Throw left too?

Two THe's in the triangle

[tom.guerry]

Clif-

I think a model of the swing as a load/unload motion where these 2 phases overlap is about as simple as you can get.There is no sudden change from one to the other. There is rhythmic preswing activity,then the load motion starts and as it continues the unload motion is superimposed. The bat coks and uncoks as a continuous circling action and the body coils and uncoils with efficient dynamics including what mankin defines as "transfer mechanics".

Pointing out definite moments in time where "rotation" starts or "inertia is broken" can not be defined below a certain level of uncertainty. Sequence and synch of motion and weight shift can be very useful.


What more exactly is it you are wondering about "breaking bat inertia" ?

The setpro model showed that "back arm inertia" (merrygoround effect of back arm applying force to bat handle via top hand when shoulder turns) had an extremely important effect on swing trajectory. Increasing the mass of the back arm a small amount could greatly quicken the swing.

Nyman interpreted this as an action which would be impossible for the human being to perceive or actively influence.

VERY hard for me to believe this effect could not be actively achieved by arms to adjust the swing.

See also mankin's latest:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/28465.html

[Ohfor]

...There is no sudden change from one to the other.

You are clueless.

[swingbuster]

Nyman interpreted this as an action which would be impossible for the human being to perceive or actively influence.

Tom..good post and I agree with this statement. However the level that one can effect this is at the beginning position of the

bat

hand set

elbows

They can all be used to describe the starting point as they as inseparable in their function as the box configuration.

Hence Pujols telling Ofher that his focus on his swing was his " hand set". This is why I believe he said that.

I predicted 2 months ago to some readers that it would be you Ofher that will be proved to be clueless. Bad part is that it will have to be explained from within before you will believe it

You should attend the ABCA sometimes Ohfer...there are many coaches there that can enlighten you .... about 3500 to be exact

[jbooth]

I went cross-eyed and still can't see it. In fact, I can't see anything right now. For all I know I am typing the recipe for a chocolate cake.

"THE" is in the triangle twice.

[jbooth]

Anyone,???

If the back elbow breaks the inertia of the bat,,,,,

It seems that this would be the start of a top hand dominant swing?

Or, does the back elbow start its downward movement without using the top hand to do so?

Do you think that the elbow breaks the inertia to get the barrel moving or could it be something else?

Please comment.

LClifton

The top hand, bottom hand, and the back elbow do absolutely nothing in the first part of the swing. The rotation of the shoulders while the spine is tilted, cause all joint angles to change their position in space, but the angles themselves do not change, and no forces are being applied by either of the hands or the arms at the initial break of inertia. The muscles that move the shoulders apply force to start the bat moving, and the shoulder rotation moves everything (arms, hands, bat) in unison.

You couldn't keep the box that you formed, turning, if you applied force at the wrist or elbow joints. The shape of the box would change prior to contact, and in high level MLB swings, it doesn't.

You form a box (not all are alike) and you turn it. Top hand/bottom hand torque (if there is much) occurs very late (not early like Mankin believes). The shoulders turn the box in its original shape, early, and the hands and arms do whatever to keep the hands in an arc and snap the bathead, very late.

Hips, shoulders, arms/hands; is the sequence of force application. The back elbow in a good swing simply moves down and past the body as a natural part of it moving as its piece of the box.

[LClifton]

The rhythm between load and unload is there,,,,, I see that.

The argument of "when" the downward movement of the rear elbow occurs is not what I am trying to get. (and there's a chance I may be stating the issue incorrectly)

But the issue for me is HOW the back elbow gets pulled down into the swing. (breaking inertia, to use your words)
I can and I think most would agree that the back elbow simply falling or tucking is not going to be an optimal move.
Much the same as Bottom hand under top is not simply moving the hands into ------that position.
They are both done by muscular movements.
And simply stating,
"Put the bottom hand under the top" OR
"drop the back elbow"....will not produce a quick, powerful swing.
In the seamless look of a good swing ----it is hard to ascertain, but I would contend that:
The reason hitters feel (as Bonds stated) "I am swinging downhill" is because the body mass is moving downward to get into the swing plane.
Thus moving the back elbow down with it------breaking inertia----powerfully,------and effectively.
This is what I see. AND I reserve the right to be wrong.

Also, when you read the dumb little triangle thingy did you read it wrong the first time? C'mon fess up...

LClifton

[LClifton]

My apologies for any overlap with your post.
I was typing while you were already posting.
-LClifton

[wogdoggy]

Clifton,,you have got to be the most polite guy on this board.I commend you for being nice to everybody.Heck i can't even tell what side your on..lol..:)

[LClifton]

Clifton,,you have got to be the most polite guy on this board.I commend you for being nice to everybody.Heck i can't even tell what side your on..lol..:)
Thanks, I had a great teacher (man)......
LClifton

[LClifton]

Do you think that the elbow breaks the inertia to get the barrel moving or could it be something else?
Something else...........as in if I am kicking a ball I do not focus on my toes to increase power and efficiency.
Woggy here's a hint.

[Ohfor]

Thanks, I had a great teacher (man)......
LClifton

You won't believe who his teacher was.:D

[DanC]

Tell it to a top hand dominant kid that grabs the bat and pulls it forward. I get it.........

No disrespect intended but I don't think you do get it.

IMO a hitter that chooses to use THT or slotting of the elbow or a combination of both is in fact going to be a top hand dominate hitter.

Is what you propose that a hitter need to do with the top half as follows?
Correct me if I have misinterpeted your thoughts:

1. Load the shoulders (rear scap?) with the BHUT, bat tipped towards P,2B (semi-wrapped)? or near vertical?...
2.THT/slot the elbow sending the bat head backwards away from the incoming pitch which will IMO cause the hitter to instantly lose the loaded scap and disconnect the box fom the turn.
3.Then somehow reconnect with the bottom hand arm while also avoiding bat drag.

I was going to add more but I am not sure where you stand on weathervaning?

[Ohfor]

That's what he believes.

And, he loves weathervaning.

[swingbuster]

No disrespect intended but I don't think you do get it.

How do you stop bat drag( top hand take over at launch)....nobody has posted a RH kid here that stopped it yet where I have seen a before and after...

IMO a hitter that chooses to use THT or slotting of the elbow or a combination of both is in fact going to be a top hand dominate hitter.

At impact what hand dominates ? At launch what hand dominates? Are they the same?

Does Bonds lead the launch with the bottom hand yet talk about the Bond's top hand at contact...how is that so....?


Is what you propose that a hitter need to do with the top half as follows?


Correct me if I have misinterpeted your thoughts

:



Is what you propose that a hitter need to do with the top half as follows?


Correct me if I have misinterpeted your thoughts:

1. Load the shoulders (rear scap?) with the BHUT, bat tipped towards P,2B (semi-wrapped)? or near vertical?...

You cannot( should not) try to load the rear shoulder only ...your shoulders have two sides like your hips(and yes I understand that anatomy IS different). Your elbows work together in the load ...this is where a problem starts when coaches start jacking the rear elbow up and back and and not letting the lead elbow come down some..talking about an adnormal distorted box with a bad wrist bind ...wow.

So an important point from my POV...when you move the rear elbow you must move the lead elbow somewhere. Rear elbow way up is lead elbow more down...fact...you are tilting the box more oblique to the spine. The more vertical the bat; the more oblique the box..see pujols.


We tend to watch the rear scap but both sides are involved. The degree of vertical bat varies greatly. It is not so much the degree of vertical but more so the muscle action that gets the shoulders to turn away around the spine. In a macro sense I prefer to think about the shoulders as a big disc turning away and mechanisms to get that disc turned back and stay there while the hips cusp and lead. The first hand move BHUT needs to be felt more in bottom hand and it weakens the top hand leverage to pull the knob forward as the shoulder turn begins




2.THT/slot the elbow sending the bat head backwards away from the incoming pitch which will IMO cause the hitter to instantly lose the loaded scap and disconnect the box fom the turn.[/QUOTE


The longer the rear elbow stays up and the barrel stays loaded out of plane the longer the shoulder disc will stay turned back..fact. as the torque builds from separation and at the right time something must release the locking mechanism. The elbow position changes do this but the box is still intact.The relative tip to tip elbow positions have not changed when the lead elbow works up and the rear down.. This releases the shoulder unit to follw the hip turn as the torso is primed


3.Then somehow reconnect with the bottom hand arm while also avoiding bat drag.

You cannot drag the bat like this ..your bottom hand is connected on an inside out path ....the power side of the ball. Or let me say. RH hitters that throw RH are about 20 times less likely to drag with any BHUT inclination on the load


I was going to add more but I am not sure where you stand on weathervaning?

I never really understood what it means really...you can help me there

[oleballcoach]

I was going to add more but I am not sure where you stand on weathervaning?

I never really understood what it means really...you can help me there

Weathervaning is a term coined by Mike Epstein in which he attempts to describe how hitters make adjustments to the location(height) of the pitch. He recommends that on a low pitch the lead elbow "weathervanes" up and the back elbow "weathervanes" down. Vice-versa for high pitches. IMO, this is NOT something elite hitters do. He's way off, IMO.

FYI...here's an article where he talks about weathervaning in detail with pictures. But, look for yourself at the pictures and look carefully at the alignment or plane of the shoulders in relationship to the bat and swing plane. IMO, that is where the adjustment is made through postural adjusment(ie: amount of torso tilt or for lack of a better term, the amount of bend at the waist).

Epstein on Weathervaning (http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/extra/askmike36.pdf)

[LClifton]

You cannot( should not) try to load the rear shoulder only ...your shoulders have two sides
Yes one loads towards the spine,
The front scap then moves away from the spine they are connected and when one moves the other does as well,
when both hands are on the bat. (obviously, you can load rear scap independently without both hands together)
when you move the rear elbow you must move the lead elbow somewhere.
Again, if you load the rear shoulder the front shoulder does move down some or back some, depending on how high you load the rear shoulder it does have a correlation. But I don't move the rear elbow THEN the front elbow, with both hands on the bat------- load your rear scap,,,,,does the front elbow, scap, and arm move slightly?
The more vertical the bat; the more oblique the box..see pujols.
Truly you can't mean this.
Once the scap is loaded, the bat can be moved with the hands to vertical, toward the pitcher, catcher etc, with no effect on box shape. I don't see the correlation.

LClifton

[DanC]

.

How do you stop bat drag( top hand take over at launch)....


The short answer is do not let the top hand take over at launch. Learn to connect the box to the turn.

nobody has posted a RH kid here that stopped it yet where I have seen a before and after...

I certainly have not posted a before and after. Have you?

I will consider doing so if I can find the time and find somebody that does indeed drag the bat as I am pretty busy working the FP pitching side of this game. I am not at this point coaching a team (that could change in a couple of months if some other things free up )so I do not have any hitters to work with at this time.

I could probably video a couple of my pitchers hitting, but I do not believe they will show any bat drag.

Make you a deal, I will do it if you do it....




You cannot( should not) try to load the rear shoulder only ...your shoulders have two sides like your hips(and yes I understand that anatomy IS different). Your elbows work together in the load ...this is where a problem starts when coaches start jacking the rear elbow up and back and and not letting the lead elbow come down some..talking about an adnormal distorted box with a bad wrist bind ...wow.

So an important point from my POV...when you move the rear elbow you must move the lead elbow somewhere. Rear elbow way up is lead elbow more down...fact...you are tilting the box more oblique to the spine. The more vertical the bat; the more oblique the box..see pujols.


We tend to watch the rear scap but both sides are involved. The degree of vertical bat varies greatly. It is not so much the degree of vertical but more so the muscle action that gets the shoulders to turn away around the spine. In a macro sense I prefer to think about the shoulders as a big disc turning away and mechanisms to get that disc turned back and stay there while the hips cusp and lead. The first hand move BHUT needs to be felt more in bottom hand and it weakens the top hand leverage to pull the knob forward as the shoulder turn begins

My bad, I left out that you also want the hitter to counter rotate as well.


As far as weathervaning...you said

I never really understood what it means really...you can help me there

Best I can tell is that it is spose to be an adjustment(a teter-toter with the elbows to adjust to the plane of the pitch). I will let Tom fill you in on the details if he so chooses.

I see that the oleballcoach beat me to it....

Later,
Dan

[swingbuster]

The short answer is do not let the top hand take over at launch.

Well yes....that is very short and agreed upon by all I believe..even Ofher who hates everything


Learn to connect the box to the turn.

Dead hands loading? Hand torque power along with c- force power...how do you get it?. I know you want to turn the box but there are accessories to that.

More later ...

[FlippJ]

Dead hands loading? Hand torque power along with c- force power...how do you get it?. I know you want to turn the box but there are accessories to that.IMO bat drag is not a "loading" problem it's an "unloading" problem.

Jason

[GFK]

IMO bat drag is not a "loading" problem it's an "unloading" problem.

Jason

Jason, my middle son fought “Bat Drag” for a few months, beat it, and then fell back into it when we added pelvic loading. He has now beat it again. What is perplexing to me is I do not know how he / we eliminated it. We did several things to shake him out of his “bat drag” motor program but I do not know which changes did the trick.

If you don’t mind, I would like to hear a detailed explanation of why you think “Bat Drag” is an unloading problem.

[swingbuster]

IMO bat drag is not a "loading" problem it's an "unloading" problem.

I agree Jason

BUT..I also think it is born of a loading problem. I also think it exist in epidemic porportions.

[tom.guerry]

CLIF-
The back elbow comes down via the same universal arm and scap action sequence for every good swing. It is the same sequence as the back arm loading for a good power (high level buggywhip pattern) overhand throw.

Hodge has the best description of this particular detail for the throw that is good enough that it can be applied fairly directly to the high level swing.

The nice thing about the overhand throw is that things are more stretched out and creative, so learning is easier.The body will then prefer to adopt this optimal solution for hitting.

Hodge has very good "forward chaining" throwing drills that focus on the desired action of back arm.See BIOMECHANICBASEBALL.

-Get sideways to target
-Break hands with elbows up and palms down (internal rotation and abduction).Stride foot goes forward.
-When the front leg turns over,the back arm comes up by external rotation (synched external rotation ensures good upper/lower body timing).
-Bend at back elbow needs to get back to about 90 degrees (if arms became more extended after handbreak) as throwing arm starts up.
-Lead arm must continue internally rotating (prevents flying open and many other important things,see tape)

-----------Similar arm loading sequence for hitting up to this point.

-Head needs to stay back behind center until forward torso turn starts to lay throwing arm back furhter (more external rotation)
-Head comes forward after forward torso turn starts.
-Land on firmly flexed front knee.
-Throw with full pronation

As Dixon found, the key to learning hitting is learning a good throw.

See for example MADDUX:

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=229

[dannyboy]

LClifton,

Re: post #84 in this thread.

Sorta late, but heres my comment:
It’s not unusual to hear most say that how a batter stands in his stance is individualistic, but that when batters reach “launch position” (I like to think of launch as toe-touch) they should all virtually be in the same identical position. Of course, this is not true of all, and one of the biggest visual differences is the position of the elbow. At launch, that is.

Does the elbow break the inertia of the bat?

No.
I agree with Steve Englishbey when he says, “Something else...........”. I don’t know his full meaning when he says further, “…as in if I am kicking a ball I do not focus on my toes to increase power and efficiency” (could speculate but, don’t wanna).

What is the “something else” then?

First, I think we all pretty much agree that it’s desirable to “get the barrel moving” (at least I think we all pretty much agree here).
To overcome the inert state of the bat (the measure of the bat to resist motion).
What gets it moving then? Pretty much everything but the elbow.

-multi-finger force production
-a combination of power and precision of certain class prehension
-opposition
for more explanation, please see (if you want):

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/j/u/jus149/handfinger/overview/overview.htm

for starters.

-Hand extension/flexion and ulna/radial deviation.

-Forearm pronation/supination.

-And pretty much take your pick from the scapula and clavicle and shoulder articulations (not really take your pick, but too many combinations and permutations to list).

Just about everything but elbow flexion/extension (from pre-swing to launch and from launch to when the elbow first bottoms out, that is).

PS: when I read the dumb little triangle thingy, I did read it wrong the first time.


oh and hips and torso rotation, as well.

[LClifton]

.............definitely take a look Ray..
Thanks,,,the reason I questioned it so much is due to the fact my daughter breaks the inertia with the drop of the back elbow, resulting in some pretty immediate disconnection, she recovers fairly nicely due to her swing quickness, but she could stay connected better with a better initial move, NOT isolated to the rear elbow. IMO...
LClifton

[swingbuster]

Does the elbow break the inertia of the bat?

Not elbow but elbow(s)

The over looked lead elbow is a missing link. You do want it under the swing plane down as the rear elbow is up. The lead elbow coming UP at the same time the rear comes down in conjunction with forward weight shift breaks the inertia.

Bat handle torque gets applies when a force is generate in opposite directions on the handle. Only by applying forces that originate in the relative change in positions of BOTH elbows can you break the inertia and send the barrel into the back side of the swing arc properly. If the COG is not shifted forward then you will be out of balance and the back side will collapse

See Ted

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=240&st=0&#last

Why can something be so illusive when it is on film ?...because you look at the wrong thing over and over. This infatuation with the rear elbow causes this. The shoulder turn is what it is about and you must consider both sides of the body as they ARE linked in what constitutes a good shoulder turn away and through.

The high lead elbow will screw up the loading cycle of the shoulders. It is twice as hard to turn them back around the spine with a rigid high lead elbow. If you want the lead elbow up then bring the rear down. The relationship must be right. You cannot have them both UP without binding the shoulder up in tension

[dannyboy]

LClifton’s question:
Does the elbow break the inertia of the bat?

Your answer:
Not elbow but elbow(s)

Excuse me, but no. Not one, nor two. The elbow only has two articulations: flexion (bringing forearm toward upper arm) and extension (taking forearm away from upper arm), and neither of these movements are associated with breaking the inertia of the bat from pre-swing right on up until the elbow first bottoms out.

Please follow your own advice:
Why can something be so illusive when it is on film ?...because you look at the wrong thing over and over.

You are slightly more correct when you say:
Only by applying forces that originate in the relative change in positions of BOTH elbows can you break the inertia and send the barrel into the back side of the swing arc properly.

Except I would change the word “originate” to “result”.


From “Principia Mathematica” by Sir Isaac Newton.
Newton’s First Law: Law of Inertia.
Lex I: Corpus omne perseverare in statu suo quiescendi vel movendi uniformiter in directum, nisi quatenus a viribus impressis cogitur statum illum mutare.

Every body perseveres in its state of being at rest or of moving uniformly straight ahead, except insofar as it is compelled to change its state by forces impressed. [Cohen & Whitman 1999 translation]

Not gonna get into all the different interpretations (and there are many).
What this means to me (and I will concede that it may mean something different to you) is that there can be two inertia breakers. The one the changes a bat at rest to one that’s moving, and the other, the one that changes the direction of a moving bat.

Probably a good extreme demo of both is Sheffield.


hand articulations before we move on to the others.

“Berkman” and “Guerrero” clips:
http://s6.invisionfree.com/Hitting/index.php?showtopic=291&view=findpost&p=4077346

column A, row 2 (first bonds in row):
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html

picked these because they are relative close-ups.


hand articulations are difficult to see, but please try. You know, “...the the…”.