Sadaharu Oh!

[justice22]

I've been thinking a lot lately, since the Hall of Fame is the Baseball Hall of Fame, should great players in other leagues be included, specifically Sadaharu Oh. I just don't know

[KCGHOST]

There have been several threads on this. First it is no the International Baseball Hall of Fame. It is the National Baseball Hall of Fame, therefore no. Hell we can't even get the voting right for players we see for 15-20 years and you want us to consider voting for guys we have never laid eyes on?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

There have been several threads on this. First it is no the International Baseball Hall of Fame. It is the National Baseball Hall of Fame, therefore no. Hell we can't even get the voting right for players we see for 15-20 years and you want us to consider voting for guys we have never laid eyes on?

Oh, you mean guys like Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and "Pop" Lloyd? ;) I doubt most of us here at BBF have ever seen these players in person. I think Jim Albright has pretty much debunked the "National" argument as well...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I've been thinking a lot lately, since the Hall of Fame is the Baseball Hall of Fame, should great players in other leagues be included, specifically Sadaharu Oh. I just don't know

Checck out these threads.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41490

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=34003

[Tigerfan1974]

I've been thinking a lot lately, since the Hall of Fame is the Baseball Hall of Fame, should great players in other leagues be included, specifically Sadaharu Oh. I just don't know

I say no also.
It is the NATIONAL Baseball Hall of Fame.

Oh? No!
(Sorry Sadaharu!)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I say no also.
It is the NATIONAL Baseball Hall of Fame.

Oh? No!
(Sorry Sadaharu!)

When will the silly "National" argument ever die?! ;) As Jim Albright correctly pointed out, other than the name, there is no formal rule barring players that didn't play in North America. So people please stop using this silly argument. It has NO MERIT. If "National" is a hang up then simple change the name. The HoF can do that you know. Remember, Negro Leaguers were not eligible for the HoF because "National" meant major leaguers only. But guess what, the HoF changed it's rules. Imagine that. :o

[CoasttoCoast]

Oh, you mean guys like Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, Cool Papa Bell, Satchel Paige, and "Pop" Lloyd? ;) I doubt most of us here at BBF have ever seen these players in person. I think Jim Albright has pretty much debunked the "National" argument as well...

"debunked" ? He gave his view.His view is an informed on ebut far from gospel.

I dont think it will ever allow foreign players that never played in the Major Leagues aside from the ones that played in the Negro Leagues.

I just hope the Hall of Fame never goes the way of the Basketball Hall of Fame and allows every Joe Blow from every level to be inducted.The Basketball HOF has now allowed high school coaches in their ranks.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

"debunked" ? He gave his view.His view is an informed on ebut far from gospel.
By "debunked" I mean that the "National" argument being used implies strongly that there are formal rules against inducting Japanese players. No such rules exist.


I dont think it will ever allow foreign players that never played in the Major Leagues aside from the ones that played in the Negro Leagues.
I hope that's not true but it will be many years befiore it can possibly happen. Ichiro is the key person in this possbile change.


I just hope the Hall of Fame never goes the way of the Basketball Hall of Fame and allows every Joe Blow from every level to be inducted.The Basketball HOF has now allowed high school coaches in their ranks.
No one is arguing this for baseball. Japanese baseball is not high school level baaeball. Didn't Japan just win the WBC? :o

But the simple question I asked was this, "Would inducting Sadaharu Oh diminish or enhance the Baseball HoF?"

[NeverJustAGame]

What next minor leaguers?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

What next minor leaguers?
Non-sequtir. Minor leaguers have nothing to do with the issue of Japanese players.

[justice22]

What next minor leaguers?
nice use of a fallacious argument though! i've taken 2 logic classes and that's a good example of the red herring and the slippery slope. i have to write this one down!

but that's off topic as well. First of all, I'm new to the forum, so i don't know what we've discussed, so i may be repeating someone. The only argument that is even possibly justified is the idea that since itis the National BBHOF that no one else should be included, but that theory has basically been debunked. If one is to say the quality of the Japanese leagues is lower then ours, again, that would be a mistake, just look at the WBC. Obviously, Oh dominated his league in a greater fashion then anyone else. Even IF the Japanese leagues are of minorly worse quality, shouldn't he still be considered one of the greats.

I do agree wtih whomever said they hope our hof doesn't end up like basketball. They are seriously depressing...

[KCGHOST]

I think Jim Albright has pretty much debunked the "National" argument as well...

Jim Albright has debunked nothing. Someone saying something you agree with doesn't make them right.

The mentioning of the Negro Leaguers is ridiculous. Are seriously trying to imply we should let the International players in because we let the Negro Leaguers in??? The NLers are in because of our collective guilt of the terrible discrimination they suffered at our hands.

Everytime the pro-international admittance parties hear an argument they come back with some goofy flip answer, but think their flim-flam is written in stone. Japanese baseball, while enthusiastically played, is minor league ball. They are at best AAA and we aren't about to include our own minor leaguers. Oh that's right thats a non sequitur. The fact that some players from Japan can make good in the majors is no different than guys making it out of AAA ball. Bring the average Japanese player over here and he will never be heard from again. When their average equals ours then you might have an argument they are a major league.

Why do you think the Japanese limit the number of players from America who can play there?? They know what would happen. Look at the goobers we have sent over there who have been dominant players.

Better yet, call up the Japanese and ask how come Henry Aaron isn't in their HoF?? And the only American in their HoF, Lefty O'Doul, is honored for his work in Japan not for what he did here. And that is a good policy. If you want in something, earn it.

[jalbright]

nice use of a fallacious argument though! i've taken 2 logic classes and that's a good example of the red herring and the slippery slope. i have to write this one down!

but that's off topic as well. First of all, I'm new to the forum, so i don't know what we've discussed, so i may be repeating someone. The only argument that is even possibly justified is the idea that since itis the National BBHOF that no one else should be included, but that theory has basically been debunked. If one is to say the quality of the Japanese leagues is lower then ours, again, that would be a mistake, just look at the WBC. Obviously, Oh dominated his league in a greater fashion then anyone else. Even IF the Japanese leagues are of minorly worse quality, shouldn't he still be considered one of the greats.

I do agree wtih whomever said they hope our hof doesn't end up like basketball. They are seriously depressing...

Well, since I've studied Japanese ball extensively, I can't quite agree that on average it's as good as the majors. If it were, my downgrades of the stats of recent Japanese players moving to the majors wouldn't work as well as they do. Similarly, I wouldn't have had the same kinds of adjustments for Oh's day. That said, the very best of Japan have been at least competitive with the best of the majors for some time IMO. Some of the very best of Japan have in fact been HOF quality. Many major league types who saw Oh play thought he was such a person, and the stats support that. I won't reiterate the points made in other threads which are active--there's enough there to chew on, and I get tired of repeating myself every couple of months, much less every couple of threads. I've got to draw the line somewhere.

Jim Albright

[Fuzzy Bear]

When will the silly "National" argument ever die?! ;) As Jim Albright correctly pointed out, other than the name, there is no formal rule barring players that didn't play in North America. So people please stop using this silly argument. It has NO MERIT. If "National" is a hang up then simple change the name. The HoF can do that you know. Remember, Negro Leaguers were not eligible for the HoF because "National" meant major leaguers only. But guess what, the HoF changed it's rules. Imagine that. :o

Negro Leaguers were Americans, and the Negro Leagues were, truly, major leagues in quality of players, even if they were not as well organized as MLB.

This is hard because Sadaharu Oh belongs in the HOF, and he was a truly great player. The Japanese Leagues are major leagues, although they may not be quite at the level of MLB. But I don't want to open the floodgates and induct Tuffy Rhodes and Randy Bass, either.

[jalbright]

Negro Leaguers were Americans, and the Negro Leagues were, truly, major leagues in quality of players, even if they were not as well organized as MLB.

This is hard because Sadaharu Oh belongs in the HOF, and he was a truly great player. The Japanese Leagues are major leagues, although they may not be quite at the level of MLB. But I don't want to open the floodgates and induct Tuffy Rhodes and Randy Bass, either.

The differences between Bass and Rhodes are:
1) they weren't as good as Oh;
2) they weren't excluded from the major leagues for anything other than the perception they didn't produce at an adequate level;
3) even if you count their time in Japan at 100%, they had short careers for HOFers.

The second point is the most critical. Major league baseball made a business agreement with Japanese baseball that each would respect the other's reserve clause, and honored that agreement even after its own reserve clause was invalidated. However, in Japan, the reserve clause remained in effect until the 1990's, and since Japanese teams weren't legally obligated to let players go, didn't want to do so, and the majors were honoring the Japanese reserve clause, Japanese players were effectively excluded from the majors.

Jim Albright

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Negro Leaguers were Americans, and the Negro Leagues were, truly, major leagues in quality of players, even if they were not as well organized as MLB.

This is hard because Sadaharu Oh belongs in the HOF, and he was a truly great player. The Japanese Leagues are major leagues, although they may not be quite at the level of MLB. But I don't want to open the floodgates and induct Tuffy Rhodes and Randy Bass, either.
The Negro Leagues were NEVER major league quality as a whole. I don't know where you got that idea from? Most informed experts put the level of play of the Negro Leagues at double-A.

[tigers527]

Let's look at this whole picture here people. We (mainly through the edict of Macarthur) thrust upon the Japanese people the sport of baseball, during the reconstruction of WWII. They embraced the sport with more fevor then we have for the game, our attention being divided between 6 major sports, 5 if you dont count hockey. While they like Sumo, Pride, and Baseball.

In the timeline of Japanese baseball they are in the 1940's version of MLB, it explains the larger number of contact hitters. Saduharu Oh was Japans Babe Ruth. 40-50 years from now we might even have a steroid filled power hitter there, challenging Ohs homer record????

That said, I would think it would behoove us as both baseball fans and Americans to embrace the Japanese passion for our sport. If that means including them in the HOF, I myself say yes. If people are worried about the HOF of baseball turning into the basketball HOF. I would say you jest, them BBWAA are an iron gate, they hardly let in the people we think should be there....see the other threads in this forum.

Between the extra Japanes tourists to the hall, the increased acceptance of things American. The benefit would far outweigh the cost. The Japanese already buy all things MLB concerning their own, why not a little more (can someone say Saduharu Oh throwback)? Not to sound all MARKETING, but heck we have no baseball in the 2012 olympics. The sport needs all the international help it can get.

Saduharu in our BB HOF, and our huge Hawiian dude in their Sumo HOF....we're 1/2 way there.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The differences between Bass and Rhodes are:
1) they weren't as good as Oh;
2) they weren't excluded from the major leagues for anything other than the perception they didn't produce at an adequate level;
3) even if you count their time in Japan at 100%, they had short careers for HOFers.

Well yes, but Sadaharu Oh won't be the standard for induction, anymore than Babe Ruth is the standard. Elmer Flick is the standard. Jim Bunning is the standard. And this has been so for a long, long time. What I want to avoid is taking in Japanese ballplayers where Kaz Sasaki is the standard.

Honoring Oh is a good idea; even inducting him into the HOF is a good idea. I don't want to honor the Elmer Flicks of Japanese baseball if I don't have to, however. If the HOF is to induct Japanese players, it should be just a few, and only the greatest.

[baseballPAP]

Negro Leaguers were Americans, and the Negro Leagues were, truly, major leagues in quality of players, even if they were not as well organized as MLB.

This is hard because Sadaharu Oh belongs in the HOF, and he was a truly great player. The Japanese Leagues are major leagues, although they may not be quite at the level of MLB. But I don't want to open the floodgates and induct Tuffy Rhodes and Randy Bass, either.
By this argument, say goodbye to Tony Perez, Luis Aparicio, ..... you see where I'm going, right?

The Baseball Hall of Fame is for the best baseball players. We started the sport, at least professionally, and therefore we host the hall of fame. That doesn't mean we automatically should bump out the greats from other places. I have 5-7 Japanese who should be elected, as well as at least admitting the potential of Cuban and Mexican players....although I am woefully ignorant to these guys. Beyond the Cubans in the bigs and Omar Linares, I'm lost....but I'm working on it. I would humbly suggest that others do the same before dismissing players totally. Shigeo Nagashima is a good place to start.

[leecemark]

--I am in favor of inducting the very greatest players from outside the U/S. and Oh is the obvious place to start. I do agree with Fuzzy Bear that inducting the second level stars from outside MLB would be less than desirable (although we've picked a few of those from the Negro Leagues - and some 4th or 5th level major leaguers:ughh ).
--If Cooperstown was going to add international players then I'd suggest a special commission authorized to consider ONLY Sadaharu Oh in its first year (which would be sort of a rigged election:D ). Nagashima and Kaneda and perhaps Linares could be considered the next year, if elections were held annually. I'd also endorse Nomura, Inao and Harimoto. Once past those guys, there are a handfull more that might be considered, but only a handfull.
--The most likely scenario I see for this is Ichiro stumping for it in his induction ceremony, much like Ted Williams induction speach got the ball rolling for Negro Leaguers. That is, of course, assuming Ichiro's star is not already setting and he gets inducted - and also that he stick his neck out a little, which isn't exactly his style. It is also at least 10 years down the road (assuming he hangs them up - or goes back to Japan - after 10 MLB seasons and is elected first ballot).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

--I am in favor of inducting the very greatest players from outside the U/S. and Oh is the obvious place to start. I do agree with Fuzzy Bear that inducting the second level stars from outside MLB would be less than desirable (although we've picked a few of those from the Negro Leagues - and some 4th or 5th level major leaguers:ughh ).
--If Cooperstown was going to add international players then I'd suggest a special commission authorized to consider ONLY Sadaharu Oh in its first year (which would be sort of a rigged election:D ). Nagashima and Kaneda and perhaps Linares could be considered the next year, if elections were held annually. I'd also endorse Nomura, Inao and Harimoto. Once past those guys, there are a handfull more that might be considered, but only a handfull.
--The most likely scenario I see for this is Ichiro stumping for it in his induction ceremony, much like Ted Williams induction speach got the ball rolling for Negro Leaguers. That is, of course, assuming Ichiro's star is not already setting and he gets inducted - and also that he stick his neck out a little, which isn't exactly his style. It is also at least 10 years down the road (assuming he hangs them up - or goes back to Japan - after 10 MLB seasons and is elected first ballot).
I wonder if Ichiro will have learned English by the time he is eligible for the HoF? I think starting with Oh is the obvious path to take. If you compare him to the HoF first basemen he looks really good.

[jalbright]

Let's look at this whole picture here people. We (mainly through the edict of Macarthur) thrust upon the Japanese people the sport of baseball, during the reconstruction of WWII. They embraced the sport with more fevor then we have for the game, our attention being divided between 6 major sports, 5 if you dont count hockey.

Not correct. Baseball came to Japan in the 19th century (I believe in the late 1870's) when a school teacher named Horace Wilson introduced the game. It flourished on the high school and college levels, and was aided by some tours of major and Negro Leaguers. Finally, in 1935, there was a major league tour, and this time, a young Japanese pitcher named Sawamura nearly pulled a game out against a team of Ruth, Gehrig, Gehringer, Foxx and a few others. He lost 1-0 on a 7th inning solo shot by Gehrig. Japanese fans went nuts, and the next year, professional baseball was born in Japan. The professional game predictably had some rocky years during WW II, but it was played every year except the last year of the war (1945).

Jim Albright

[tigers527]

Not correct. Baseball came to Japan in the 19th century (I believe in the late 1870's) when a school teacher named Horace Wilson introduced the game. It flourished on the high school and college levels, and was aided by some tours of major and Negro Leaguers. Finally, in 1935, there was a major league tour, and this time, a young Japanese pitcher named Sawamura nearly pulled a game out against a team of Ruth, Gehrig, Gehringer, Foxx and a few others. He lost 1-0 on a 7th inning solo shot by Gehrig. Japanese fans went nuts, and the next year, professional baseball was born in Japan. The professional game predictably had some rocky years during WW II, but it was played every year except the last year of the war (1945).

Jim Albright

Hmmmm... I guess they just wanted to make Macarthur look better in the Bio I saw on PBS. Although, maybe it is me and my failing memory in old age.

[jalbright]

I know what you mean on both counts. MacArthur wasn't above a little self-promotion, and there are poorly researched sources which say what you did. However, I could point you to sources not produced by me which confirm what I said.

As for aging, that's bad enough, but if you add kids to the mix to tire you out, all bets are off.

Jim Albright

[tigers527]

I know what you mean on both counts. MacArthur wasn't above a little self-promotion, and there are poorly researched sources which say what you did. However, I could point you to sources not produced by me which confirm what I said.

As for aging, that's bad enough, but if you add kids to the mix to tire you out, all bets are off.

Jim Albright

I am sure there is some kernal of turth in the MacArthur stuff, I am sure he helped the popularty of baseball in Japan. But obviously did not "bring" the sport to them.

Thanks though, now I dont feel too bad about my age or my memory. No kids yet for me though (me and the mrs do like to practise though lol) , and from your review maybe I will wait a tad longer. :D

[JohnGelnarFan]

Sorry to drift from the Oh question but it seems to have already been done. Anyone Interested in the history of Japanese baseball should read a book called "You Gotta Have Wa" by Robert Whiting(1989) It tells alot about The prejudice and difficulties faced by American players. Some could adjust and had long careers,others left,were sent down or were released before the end of their first season.





Not correct. Baseball came to Japan in the 19th century (I believe in the late 1870's) when a school teacher named Horace Wilson introduced the game. It flourished on the high school and college levels, and was aided by some tours of major and Negro Leaguers. Finally, in 1935, there was a major league tour, and this time, a young Japanese pitcher named Sawamura nearly pulled a game out against a team of Ruth, Gehrig, Gehringer, Foxx and a few others. He lost 1-0 on a 7th inning solo shot by Gehrig. Japanese fans went nuts, and the next year, professional baseball was born in Japan. The professional game predictably had some rocky years during WW II, but it was played every year except the last year of the war (1945).

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Thanks though, now I dont feel too bad about my age or my memory. No kids yet for me though (me and the mrs do like to practise though lol) , and from your review maybe I will wait a tad longer. :D

Don't get me wrong--I love that little boy of mine, and wouldn't change a thing. That said, when it's the season for his worst allergies (now) and he's waking up in the middle of the night and coming to see daddy, daddy's losing more than a little sleep. I know he's only seeking comfort, and I'm glad he thinks I provide that--but, man, I sure do miss the sleep! You keep going anyway, and you manage, just not as well as you'd like all the time. Then you see his smile or hear his laugh, or he hugs me--and I know there's absolutely nothing I would not do within the law and my power for him. The bottom line is, if you can, wait until you think you're ready, but enjoy it if and when if happens.

Jim Albright

[wamby]

Let's look at this whole picture here people. We (mainly through the edict of Macarthur) thrust upon the Japanese people the sport of baseball, during the reconstruction of WWII. They embraced the sport with more fevor then we have for the game, our attention being divided between 6 major sports, 5 if you dont count hockey. While they like Sumo, Pride, and Baseball.

.

Baseball was introduced into Japan long before 1946. Babe Ruth, for one, was well recognized in Japan before the War. I believe Japan had professional leagues which were shut down because of WWII.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Baseball was introduced into Japan long before 1946. Babe Ruth, for one, was well recognized in Japan before the War. I believe Japan had professional leagues which were shut down because of WWII.
Yes, Japanese professional baseball began in 1936 due, in large part, to the tour of major leaguers (which included Babe Ruth) in 1934.

[riverfrontier]

It's funny to see how one-sided much of the argument is here. Aside from my personal opinion that in no way, shape, or form should he be considered, ponder these thoughts. Do you think for one second the Japanese would consider putting anybody who has played here (read:non-Japanese) into their hall of fame? If you answer yes, then you've never been in Japan. Not a chance in hell. They play in a league that does not allow the best players from all around the world because there are quotas on the amount of non-Japanese allowed on any roster. If you think the election of Negro League players to the American HOF was, in all honesty, anything more than a gesture to right an egregious wrong, well that's your opinion. But they at least played in the same country, in the same ballparks, and the same society as their major league counterparts. It's common knowledge, but Oh has been directly involved as a manager in the shutting down of three foreign players making an assault on his single-season home run record. Nice way to stay on top, there Sad-O.
Using the same prevailing logic from some of the previous posts, why not include some players from Taiwan's Little League teams? Even though they tweaked the rules of eligibility, they dominated their competition as much as Oh did. Let's see, who else is deserving....

[jalbright]

It's funny to see how one-sided much of the argument is here. Aside from my personal opinion that in no way, shape, or form should he be considered, ponder these thoughts. Do you think for one second the Japanese would consider putting anybody who has played here (read:non-Japanese) into their hall of fame? If you answer yes, then you've never been in Japan. Not a chance in hell. They play in a league that does not allow the best players from all around the world because there are quotas on the amount of non-Japanese allowed on any roster. If you think the election of Negro League players to the American HOF was, in all honesty, anything more than a gesture to right an egregious wrong, well that's your opinion. But they at least played in the same country, in the same ballparks, and the same society as their major league counterparts. It's common knowledge, but Oh has been directly involved as a manager in the shutting down of three foreign players making an assault on his single-season home run record. Nice way to stay on top, there Sad-O.
Using the same prevailing logic from some of the previous posts, why not include some players from Taiwan's Little League teams? Even though they tweaked the rules of eligibility, they dominated their competition as much as Oh did. Let's see, who else is deserving....
1) What the Japanese do with their Hall is completely irrelevant to what is best for Cooperstown. The argument I propose is that it is in Cooperstown's best interest to induct international professionals who demonstrated they were every bit as good as the major leaguers. The reasons I feel that way have been spread around any number of threads here, and I won't repeat them.

2) Your sarcasm about Taiwanese Little Leaguers is a classic red herring and deserves no further comment, if indeed it deserves this much.

3) Yes, Oh showed feet of clay in his handling of challenges to his single season home run record. However, if every HOFer needs to be an absolute paragon of virtue, we ought to hold a fire sale on a lot of those plaques. Truthfully, beyond those inexcusable lapses, Oh has been a fine representative of the game--shouldn't that count for something, at least in mitigation of his missteps?

Jim Albright

[riverfrontier]

Okay, my thoughts. Fact: Oh never played Major League Baseball. Conjecture: Oh was just as good as players elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Fact: The league in which Oh played excluded players based on ethnicity. Conjecture: It is in Cooperstown's best interest to enshrine him. Fact: The ballparks Oh played in were, in average of square feet, smaller than the parks his counterparts played in. Fact: His single season home run record has been matched by Tuffy Rhodes and Alex Cabrera who, while playing in the major leagues, collectively hit 18 home runs in 670 major league at bats.
That's my take on it. He was dominant, yes. He's already earned a plaque in the Japanese Hall of Fame. What has he done to earn one in ours? And it IS relevant to ask: If he were to be elected, who else from the Japanese leagues should also be elected? If polled, I wonder what living HOF members would think of his inclusion.

[jalbright]

My thoughts on the subject begin with the following two articles, meant to be read together. http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright12.html and http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/analysisjalbright13.html If you really want to go further, there are plenty of links to articles on the left hand side of this page: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/ If you want still more, I can point you to some posts in my musings thread. Included in those other articles are analyses of some other prominent Japanese greats.

Yeah, maybe some HOFers wouldn't like it at first, but they'd get over it. If the game lasts long enough, Oh will be in there when the game becomes more global.

Jim Albright

[The Big C]

I think at the least there could be a special international election. Bud has demonstrated that he wants to spread the game globally, and eleceting superstars of foreign leagues certainly wouldn't hurt.

If there was some sort of separation or distinction, that could satisfy the egos of some HOFers who may be opposed to the idea while still honoring the foreign greats.

To sum up my thoughts, it is the Baseball Hall of Fame, and Sadaharu Oh was a great baseball player.

[riverfrontier]

Opinions of all duly noted. He played baseball, he was good, and the word 'baseball' is in the official title of the 'National Baseball Hall of Fame.' A simple equation. I will now open Pandora's box and stump for the inclusion of the all-time CPBL greats who have shown similar domination of their league, because I have ties to Taiwan, have followed the league, and I want to see them recognized on an international stage, which the HOF will be with the induction of Sadaharu Oh (who is half Taiwanese, not mainland Chinese, if you're keeping score). Ready the smelter for Chiang Tai-shan.

Sincerely, Gnirreh Der

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Another Sadaharu Oh forthe HoF thread? We can't have enough of those. ;) As everyone knows I am strongly in favor of inducting Oh into the Baseball HOF here in America.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Opinions of all duly noted. He played baseball, he was good, and the word 'baseball' is in the official title of the 'National Baseball Hall of Fame.' A simple equation. I will now open Pandora's box and stump for the inclusion of the all-time CPBL greats who have shown similar domination of their league, because I have ties to Taiwan, have followed the league, and I want to see them recognized on an international stage, which the HOF will be with the induction of Sadaharu Oh (who is half Taiwanese, not mainland Chinese, if you're keeping score). Ready the smelter for Chiang Tai-shan.

Sincerely, Gnirreh Der
Ok present you case for Chiang Tai-shan, smarty pants. :cool:

[Yankwood]

The National Baseball Hall of Fame has become a joke, anyway, in my humble opinion, so sure, why not. Open the freakin' doors and let everyone in. It was a special place at one time but not anymore. We have people here who want anybody who has strung 3 good seasons together in the Hall of Fame, so long as they "compiled" numbers that look like someone else who's already in. Who cares where it was done or against who? In fact, here's a novel approach. Let's put EVERYONE whoever played in and then every year, someone becomes eligible to get kicked out. All it would take is one voter to say "No, I think he should stay in", and he will. Then everybody is happy and can have everyone who ever played for his or her favorite team be in. Now, everybody is happy. And we can all live in one happy world where there is world peace and love , etc, etc, etc. In fact, let's not even keep score anymore. Let's all just watch everyone run around and hit or throw or pitch or, well, whatever you want to do. Because, hey, nothing matters anymore so long as we all have our happiness.

[The Big C]

The National Baseball Hall of Fame has become a joke, anyway, in my humble opinion, so sure, why not. Open the freakin' doors and let everyone in. It was a special place at one time but not anymore. We have people here who want anybody who has strung 3 good seasons together in the Hall of Fame, so long as they "compiled" numbers that look like someone else who's already in. Who cares where it was done or against who? In fact, here's a novel approach. Let's put EVERYONE whoever played in and then every year, someone becomes eligible to get kicked out. All it would take is one voter to say "No, I think he should stay in", and he will. Then everybody is happy and can have everyone who ever played for his or her favorite team be in. Now, everybody is happy. And we can all live in one happy world where there is world peace and love , etc, etc, etc. In fact, let's not even keep score anymore. Let's all just watch everyone run around and hit or throw or pitch or, well, whatever you want to do. Because, hey, nothing matters anymore so long as we all have our happiness.
Be an extremist much? Talk about blowing things out of proportion...

[cavalier1968]

Okay, my thoughts. Fact: Oh never played Major League Baseball. Conjecture: Oh was just as good as players elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Fact: The league in which Oh played excluded players based on ethnicity. Conjecture: It is in Cooperstown's best interest to enshrine him. Fact: The ballparks Oh played in were, in average of square feet, smaller than the parks his counterparts played in. Fact: His single season home run record has been matched by Tuffy Rhodes and Alex Cabrera who, while playing in the major leagues, collectively hit 18 home runs in 670 major league at bats.
That's my take on it. He was dominant, yes. He's already earned a plaque in the Japanese Hall of Fame. What has he done to earn one in ours? And it IS relevant to ask: If he were to be elected, who else from the Japanese leagues should also be elected? If polled, I wonder what living HOF members would think of his inclusion.


I agree.......

Cav

[Yankwood]

Be an extremist much? Talk about blowing things out of proportion...As the saying goes'"In your opinion". I'd like to take it farther but people here freak out.

[riverfrontier]

It's all cool. People freak. Jim Albright's on the ball. I just feel he dropped it on this particular play. I'm not trying to debate anything other than saying Wang Chen chih (zhi) has no business in the hall of fame.

[Yankwood]

Well, I agree. I also don't think that players from the Negro Leagues should be in. Just my opinion.

[jalbright]

Well, I agree. I also don't think that players from the Negro Leagues should be in. Just my opinion.
Everybody's entitled to an opinion, and this being a free country and board, you have plenty of opportunity to make it known. That said, the Negro Leagues issue has already been decided in a manner you don't like, and it isn't changing back. I'd suggest you learn to deal with it.

Jim Albright

[Yankwood]

Everybody's entitled to an opinion, and this being a free country and board, you have plenty of opportunity to make it known. That said, the Negro Leagues issue has already been decided in a manner you don't like, and it isn't changing back. I'd suggest you learn to deal with it.

Jim AlbrightWell, you get awfully gruff about a difference of opinion. And so you and some other people already decided it? Oh, okay, case closed. It's official. Anybody else who gets on here after you helped make your final decision has no right to an opinion. Like I said in an earlier post. When you don't agree with certain people here, they "freak out".

[jalbright]

Well, you get awfully gruff about a difference of opinion. And so you and some other people already decided it? Oh, okay, case closed. It's official. Anybody else who gets on here after you helped make your final decision has no right to an opinion. Like I said in an earlier post. When you don't agree with certain people here, they "freak out".
You're reading an awful lot into what I said, very little of which is true. I have no more say in anything about what Cooperstown does than any other fan, nor do I expect to have any such greater say ever. The directors of the Hall of Fame have made the decision about admitting Negro Leaguers, and it's safe to say it won't be changing. That doesn't deny you the right to have an opinion or express it, nor have I so much as implied it should. If you really feel better by banging your head against a brick wall, be my guest. I'll let others judge us by what we post.

Jim Albright

[Yankwood]

It's too difficult to judge lower level leagues when playing each other. Japanese, Negro Leagues, etc. Standouts in minor league equivalents do not translate into major league success and players who performed only at this level should not be allowed into the Hall of Fame. Now if my point is moot because it has already been decided, fine. I can deal with that.

[riverfrontier]

It looks like third person reference in thread titles makes Albright king of the hill. Bully for him. Oh is not in the Hall of Fame, and I'd suggest HE (JAlbright) deal with it, but I'm waiting for his thread on the Taiwan League. There may be a guy or two who needs a second look.




Der Gnirreh

[jalbright]

I was telling the gentleman to deal with the fact Negro Leaguers are in the Hall, and have been for 30 years, in response to his comment about such players. I am also dealing with the fact Oh isn't in the Hall and likely won't be at least until after the first Japanese league player to come to the majors is inducted (Ichiro is the best candidate presently). That doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion, and I have done so. I never told the other individual he wasn't entitled to his opinion. Are you afraid of a little discussion?

I have no information which suggests the Taiwan league or indeed any league since about 1950 other than Japan and possibly Castro's Cuba have had more than one HOF caliber (if that) player play a significant portion of his career in those leagues. I don't have the data to do anything resembling a proper evaluation of the guys from Castro's Cuba, so I can't say much more than it's conceivable such talent exists or at least existed there. If you or anyone else wants to make that case, by all means, I'd like to hear it. If you don't, fine--it's on anyone who wants to make that case to do so. I'll let the cases I've made for a small number of Japanese players speak for themselves, and I'll let your posts speak for themselves. Let the readers decide.

Jim Albright

[zahavasdad]

I am sure this was brought up before, but I cant find an old thread

Do you think Japanese Players especially Saduharu Oh (I dont know any other sure hall-of-famers) should be inducted

Given at the time Japanese players could not play in the major leagues (No different than Negro leaguers who could not play)

I am sure there are others

[SamtheBravesFan]

Well... Japan does have its own Hall of Fame. There are a couple of Americans in that Hall (Wally Kaname Yonamine and Lefty O'Doul), but I'm not sure if Oh should be indiucted. That may complicate things more than they already are.

[jjpm74]

I got to watch Oh play for a few years. He was a superstar in his own league, but a lot of his home runs may or may not have been home runs against major league pitching in major league stadiums. Japanese players are a tough sell for me, but I can definitely see their acceptance IF AND ONLY IF Cuban league stars (both pre-integration AND Castro era) who also didn't have a choice also get a serious look. Perucho Cepeda has gotten a lot f attention here, but a lot of other Cuban stars have not for a variety of reasons, some f which are out of our control at this time.

[jalbright]

Merged with a previous Oh thread. If you are interested in discussing inducting international players, see this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40589). If you are only interested in discussing Japanese players, see this thread (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=55658).