LIL HELP HITTING FLAWS follow up

[wogdoggy]

Ok ,I'm really trying with this kid.He still is rolling over on his front foot just before contact,losing power.What can i do to get his "FRONTSIDE" a little more square on impact.What can I do to fix this kid before STEVE gets here.

heres the newest

http://www.esnips.com/doc/2bfa3aef-5a9e-40ee-9821-53f7129ae207/100_0479.mov

[MSandman]

wog,

I took the liberty of converting your QuickTime movie to a GIF, removing some extraneous frames, cropping, and posting here. I also made four 2-frame sequences of what some might consider pertinent points in the swing.

Of course, people can still view the movie to slide back and forth. But for anyone who might want to see the [18] meaningful frames...

Just trying to help.

Sandman

http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479.gif

http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479a.gif http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479b.gif http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479c.gif http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479d.gif

[swingbuster]

wrist unhinges way too early casting the bat. Sandman captured it well as usual. Still say it is a synchronization problem and not necessarily a rotation problem...

woggy...better weight shift ...hips turning but I think the top hand must be unleverged with hand set.

What have to got to lose. I would make sure he knew how to load. I would tell him to cock the hands and the hips. I would tell him that his hand move will lead his hips back. His hips, rear elbow and bat knob will go back. The bat knob will point to the hip as the hands owrk BHUT. The lead elbow will go down and the rear up and the bat barrel will go out to splitting his helmet or more. The bat going to vertical and staying there during the stride will lock his scap back and rear elbow up until the bat turn back on plane.

Better descriptions below from article I am writing....



Hide your hands. From the pitchers mound the coach should get the impression that the hitters hands disappear during the load. This is a function of the hips coiling the weight into the back side, the shoulders rotating back around the spine on the general plane they will return, postural adjustments and the hands being taken spatially around behind the body vs staying “ out over the plate”

Hips and hands. We use this cue to teach the player that the negative moves of the “ backswing” are linked together. Most players do the wrong thing with the hands and many coaches try to “ kill the feel” of the hands. We have found it better to teach the players what the hands do first and replace the bad hand action with the proper hand action. We want to unleverage the top hand and cock the hands in a specific pattern. We also feel that we can link the now NEGATIVE hand move in the mind with the negative hip coil. We want to think coil the hips and hands together going back. When reviewing clips of bad swings, it is common to see the hands go back and then immediately come forward leading the hips in the swing. This is called an arm and hand swing

Keep Your Shoulder In.. It is possible with bat barrel positioning during the load to keep your shoulder in longer. When the loading pattern is BHUT and the rear elbow goes high. The lead elbow is in close and then the bat barrel is forced over the helmet and maintained in this position during the stride. The barrel position locks the shoulders back and the rear elbow / entire shoulder mass is kept back until after foot plant. It is locked back there until the bat barrel turns back on plane by the slotting down of the rear elbow and the elevation of the lead elbow which takes the barrel back behind the helmet into the launch slot

Negative moves. The baseball swing does have a backswing and few players execute it properly. The quality and timing and synchronization of the back swing will determine the quality and power of the swing

Visualizations and Indicator Points.

Mechanism...a pattern of body motion that insures a certain action that might be hard to accomplish otherwise. It is not a hitting absolute but ofter employed by many high level players

Coaches must develop a good eye to learn to see certain mechanics to enable themselves to make swing adjustments

Elbow behind belly button at toe touch. When every batters front foot comes down his hands should be cocked and his lead elbow should be behind his belly button. This shows that the wrist/ forearm angle is at least 90 degrees and the shoulders are turned back when the swing is initiated

Heel to sky; laces to pitcher toes dragging. What a great point here. This will answer the two very important questions? Did the weight transfer to the front side and did the hips turn through. Full momentum transfer and full hip turn are essential for power

Hips coil behind the shoulder turn. Imagine your player wrapping his arms around a hula hoop that is placed over his head. Now rotate the shoulders turning this hula hoop away from the pitcher. Now feel the hips coil behind the turning shoulders back and hold this position. Let the hips reverse and get in front of the shoulders and turn the shoulders forward all the way through until the belly button is facing the pitcher


Hips rotate in front of the shoulder turn . Hips go in front at the cusp

Wrist/ bat angle forms and releases in time with lead leg lock out. Actually the hips turn to completion just before the wrist unhinge on the ball. The completed hip turn is seen as the lead leg locks into extension

Throw the top hand through the center of the ball. The role of the top hand cannot be carried out unless the first move of the barrel is correct. The top hand connection on the bat handle works in concert with the rear elbow slotting down to lever the bat backwards toward the catcher into the back side of the swing arc. The elbow/ shoulder action that raises the rear elbow and lowers the lead elbow is a set up move for the reverse to happen which as described above reverses this action and hand torques the bat around the hands

Hand Torque. The hands transferring pull to the bat handle in opposite directions as the shoulder rotate begins creating a separate rotation center using the wrist and forearm muscles in an additive manner

BHUT loading... another way of training the loading pattern of the shoulders and bat barrel

Maintaining the shoulder load to foot plant with barrel positioncan be taught.

Negative moves..what leads them, and how to get the hand, rear elbow / shoulder unit, and hips turning back as the body is moving forward. You need to locate the key points on the body to watch during the loading phase to see if the entire body is coiling in synch. The point of the rear hip, the tip of the rear elbow and the cocking of the hands should be leading the weight transfer back in a circular path as the lead foot releases.

Hand action leads the swing back and lower body leads it forward neurologically

How do we start back and then how do we start forward....need to know these things.

He is working too far down stream to fix his problem. It has origins in his backswing

[Ohfor]

He's not rotating from his center. Poster boy for hand/arm dominance.

[tom.guerry]

woggy-

He may be on the verge of making a jump to a much better pattern.

Sandman has done an incredible job with the video - THANKS MIKE !!!

I would also pay attention to the earlier frames,especially the two before the five that Mike highlights here in the 2 frame boxes.The major loading/timing problem starts to really show up in those 2 frames, but let's go back further,starting with inward turn.

1-Inward turn - is pretty good. He might benefit from a little more pigeon toeing of the back foot toward the pitcher. This will help the hips turn open later without forcing the back leg to turn down and in too soon.

Turns the hips back, doesn't sway the weight back too much,nice move.Sits nicely, gets a good athletic position,good head position,etc.

Hands are a little further out away from body thandesirable.

2-hip cok - pretty good action again with good internal rotation of back arm and lead leg getting bat more vertical,front knee turning in, hands in closer would be preferred here. (a little too much lift/dreaded "standup" is starting to rear its ugly head,though)

3- hand cok - starts pretty darn good. Back elbow is up,back scap pinches,knees spread, "shows sole" (of lead foot).BUT this is where the trouble really becomes apparent in the 2 frames before Mike's big 5.

UNIVERSALLY as I have been "speculating" there needs to be synched external rotation of the back arm and lead leg in a good rubber band winding phase to prepare for a good ongoing body coil.

Instead woggy Jr, here does the all too common "premature external rotation" of the back arm where the back elbow has already started down while the lead leg feels the need to keep on internally rotating. This is preparing the body to push the swing from the back. He is going to "stand up" (lose hip cok before any weight shifts),flop the front foot open, drop the hands,push the weight to the front, pull with the front arm, no upper/lower body separation, then spin the whole body in one piece, then lean back/extend arms to try to keep accelerating through contact.

The general Dixon type approach of inserting the right middle phase in here is necessary, it's just that Dixon doesn't understand the details here as well as Epstein,for example. Epstein's wind rubber band and drop and tilt is a vastly better description than the Dixon "phase 2 shift to explode/phase3 explode" thing.

What JR needs to do,instead of his current non-high level pattern is get the arm action sequence right so he is still cocking the bat as he sits and the front leg starts to turn open,THEN he would-

4-wind rubberband - he would continue to sit as the front leg turns open and the bat begins to uncok with synched back arm/lead leg external rotation with front leg going first. Then hips would turn,then back leg as lead arm internally rotated up some,interrupted at right time by

5-drop and tilt - where hips would uncok and weight shift would be blocked and lead arm internal rotation and shoulder "tilt" would create last bit of stretch/keeps hands back while unloading was working from middle up/uncoiling to drive shoulder link.

Sounds complicated, but just an explanation of what the high level MLB player he is emulating is actually doing. Woggy junior is pretty close to emulating well.

Who is his role model ?

It would be good to look at Jr and the role model side by side.

[swingbuster]

Instead woggy Jr, here does the all too common "premature external rotation" of the back arm where the back elbow has already started down while the lead leg feels the need to keep on internally rotating. This is preparing the body to push the swing from the back

Tom knows...but if you cannot take all the points home...take this one and learn a mechanism to fix it.

[MSandman]

Tom,

Here are the 5 frames preceding the 4 frames I had posted:

http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479-1.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479-2.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479-3.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479-4.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479-5.gif

And to get them all in the same scrollable area of one screen, here are the original 4:
http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479a.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479b.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479c.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479d.gif

Enjoy!
Sandman :cool:

[Ohfor]

Woggy does all the things "arm action is king" teaches.

What does he get? A very long, slow developing swing with no quickness.

You simply can not teach a kid connected rotation by teaching arm action. It is an add on later only after he learns how to use his body to swing the bat.

He has a slop filled launch that takes forever and therefore he won't handle good fastballs and the combination of good fastballs and off speed pitches will make him think about soccer.

And, Tom says he's close to a high level swing.

Not picking on the kid. But, if you're trying to get better before you meet with Steve, I'd sure be careful who I listen to.

Study LClifton's daughters launch. Figure out medicus. And when you meet with Steve, tape his one arm, lead arm swing. Study them. Those three things gave my son a better mental image of what has to take place. The better mental image got him in the ball park. It will do the same for your son.

The 4 frame sequence that Sandman posted immediately above this post............no big leaguer does what your son does with his arms. Why does he do that? Because he doesn't understand how to rotate from the center. If he did, he would not do that.

Your son does not rotate. He simply moves to a position from which he can swing with his arms. And, that is the definition of slop. The time it takes for him to move to that position will piss him off for as long as he does it. He will misread it as "I'm late." When actually, he's early but late. Early to where he should be hitting the ball yet late to where he's trying to hit the ball.

No rotation. No connection.

[Ursa Major]

I think for a starting point, focus on the two sequences below.
http://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479a.gifhttp://members.cox.net/masanda/100_0479b.gif
The far left one shows the back leg start to straighten and the hips begin to spin for no purpose, as there's no connection to the torso. The next one over shows the disconnection of the hands from the shoulders; so, posture's gone at that point.

You know what those two segments should look like. I would start there.

[Ohfor]

I would say the odds on him learning the proper "carrying of the middle" and "rotation from the center" without a closed front foot and without no stride practice is very poor.

[swingbuster]

I think we are all close here. In the left frame above I see poor upper body action that can cause rotational problems. I have always thought that the core has a hard time turning the top if the top isn't turning to match it. The core must rotate to eventually throw the top hand. The top hand/ bat barrel cannot get thrown if it moves forward at swing initiation

At best, the rotation he does generate isn't being transferred efficiently to the bat. His swing is outside / in and there is no power there. His hands get " tossed outside the line" at the first move. If they were just turning back on plane at this point they would be about 20 degrees farther back around his body naturally at that point

So ..how can he keep the hands back, inside the target line, the knob starting out to oppo box, generate some hand torque, stop the hands and hips from moving together, allow the upper body to be turned in a circle to match the hips that you train to turn in a circle, and create an earlier spatial connection between the hip turn and shoulder turn and get bat bareel displacement vs pulling the arms around the body ???

THere are two ways and he is failing at the one he is trying . I agree with Ohfer on this point...he is opening up the front side . If you do that you better make darn sure your top side is still closed and his is open too. Is you are an X angle guy, and I am in a sense then he has little to none.

He is living proof that you can swing very hard and not move the bat barrel very much. A player that doesn't quite get the objective yet of focusing the energy on the ball with top hand pop. Top hand pop comes very late in the sequence so it is a coaching goal but not maybe a teaching cue early on. Getting the top hand to start right in the sequence( back to catcher) helps to bring it out at the end of the whip.

[wogdoggy]

He has a slop filled launch that takes forever and therefore he won't handle good fastballs and the combination of good fastballs and off speed pitches will make him think about soccer.



agreed but ,these pre movements may be happening way before the ball is on top of him.
yes he opens to swing


ohfor NOTHING will make him think about soccer,but maybe wrestling.100 bucks says he takes you in 3 min or less.LOL..


I know its a mess guys.problem is I cant make this kid think about all this stuff when hes playing a game every other day.

as you can see I can't even get this kids front foot down without rolling over
I see his shoulders and hips all together with no seperation.
I would like some suggestions on teaching this kid the initial load.

LOAD hands only? won't this elongate the lead arm?
Load buy keeping hands still while turning waist?

leave hands alone and walk away from them?

maybe we can start there.

[MSandman]

leave hands alone and walk away from them?

maybe we can start there.

I would think just the opposite?

[swingbuster]

LOAD hands only? no



Load buy keeping hands still while turning waist? no



leave hands alone and walk away from them?
maybe we can start there. no

Hips and hands. We use this cue to teach the player that the negative moves of the “ backswing” are linked together. Most players do the wrong thing with the hands and many coaches try to “ kill the feel” of the hands. We have found it better to teach the players what the hands do first and replace the bad hand action with the proper hand action. We want to unleverage the top hand and cock the hands in a specific pattern. We also feel that we can link the now NEGATIVE hand move in the mind with the negative hip coil. We want to think coil the hips and hands together going back. When reviewing clips of bad swings, it is common to see the hands go back and then immediately come forward leading the hips in the swing. This is called an arm and hand swing

It is in here Woggy...he will not be late if he starts on time. Also when he gets the sense that he can throw that top hand down on that ball in all location he will have MORE TIME. If he continues to see a baseball as an object to turn on and pull to LF on every pitch he will always feel rushed and tentative as he will have no success on ball middle and away. He will take those pitches and stare at the umpire and get behind in the counts all the time

See Rays Piazza clips and comments...

Remember your son has an aluminum bat and a ball with a rubber core....it will go

[wogdoggy]

Also when he gets the sense that he can throw that top hand down on that ball in all location he will have MORE TIME

Throw the top hand?
wont this cause a straight linear downward handpath?
dont we want to create a circular handpath like the one jack touts on his new bat thingy ma giggy?
If i have him concentrate on throwing his right arm I know he'll never devolop the circle?
barry talks that stuff but we all see he doesnt really do it.

I know the type of swing He needs to devolop,,they seem to happen effortlessy and are pull liner shots.I see his bat stays connected to his shoulder on these few and far in between hits.
its happens when his top part stays back and his hips go first.

what amazes me is how far this kid can hit the ball with these junk mechanics.
Hopefully we can get an after a weekend with steve clip going..maybe the BEST ADVERTISING for STEVE yet.LOL.

IF STEVE can fix this kid up in a weekend we'd all have to take a bow..



Piaazza clip..look at the rear foot just clear out to let rotation happen..aaron does this and my kids rear foot does the same..

Is this O>K>??

to me it looks like piaazza didnt really rotate that well on this shot,,maybe cause it was outside?

[swingbuster]

Throw the top hand?


wont this cause a straight linear downward handpath? no....the opposite

dont we want to create a circular handpath like the one jack touts on his new bat thingy ma giggy?

yes

top hand is the end of the whip...occurs late at the unhinge. You must keep the top hand unlevergaged until the shoulder rotation is well under way

[Ohfor]

You simply can not teach a kid connected rotation by teaching arm action. It is an add on later only after he learns how to use his body to swing the bat.



No stride. Front foot closed. Anchor the lead leg. Learn to rotate from the center.

Without this underneath, nothing will help.

Reaction training would really help this kid. The equipment would be nice to have, but, if you don't, do this.

Have him get into his stance all ready to swing. His real stance. Don't tell him what you're going to do.

Tell him to swing when you say "go". A good hitter will get the barrel to contact very very quickly after the signal. Of course, this isn't quite realistic, but he needs to have the barrel to contact as quickly as a light turns on after flipping the switch.

He will have to first move to a position from which he can swing. Takes way to much time.

That has to be eliminated. He most likely will only learn "where" this position is and "how" to do it with no stride training.

[Ohfor]

...what amazes me is how far this kid can hit the ball with these junk mechanics.


Junk mechanics don't have as much to do with "how far one can hit a ball" as they do with "can you catch up to good pitching".

Slow pitch softball players hit the ball pretty far. No quickness needed.

[NJPirate]

what amazes me is how far this kid can hit the ball with these junk mechanics.

Kid's mechanics look good. Wish my son looked this "bad".

Unless he is swinging at an outside pitch his "box" looks too elongated at contact. Needs to keep his back elbow "in the slot" 2 frames longer. Try and have him pull his hands in toward his body as he rotates (i.e. swing "inside out")

Drills that should help:

1. Fence drill

2. Have him pinch a tennis ball under back arm (near elbow) and take dry cuts. The ball will fall out as he swings. He should try to keep the ball pinched long enough so that it hits the ground in front of his front foot.

edit: Please note that these are drills and I would not recommend he swing at live pitching like he would in either of these drills. They should help him keep his elbow in a little longer.

Making contact with his back elbow in the slot (hands in) will speed his bat up.

[Ohfor]

...Throw the top hand?

Very bad cue.

[Ohfor]

Kid's mechanics look good. Wish my son looked this "bad".

You can only see what you can see.

Try and have him pull his hands in toward his body as he rotates (i.e. swing "inside out")

Please don't.

Drills that should help:

1. Fence drill

Never use this drill unless your goal is a disconnected swing.

2. Have him pinch a tennis ball under back arm (near elbow) and take dry cuts. The ball will fall out as he swings. He should try to keep the ball pinched long enough so that it hits the ground in front of his front foot.



There is no reason to want to trap the rear elbow/forearm like that.

[wogdoggy]

No stride. Front foot closed. Anchor the lead leg. Learn to rotate from the center.

Without this underneath, nothing will help.


I'm going to try this.ohfor have you seen mankins vid?
im thinking of just using his top hand drill into the heavy bag to start.


No stride just to learn? or try to go that avenue?
maybe just pick up set down?

he had GREAT success using jacks stuff at first,but was only hitting pull shots and struggled on low and outside.

[Ohfor]

He has to learn a new way of moving. A new movement pattern. Get new muscles involved.

How long this takes depends on how well you learn what you're looking for and how committed he is to it.

The no stride/closed foot/anchored leg stance will help him learn to swing the bat with his body not his arms. Once he picks up on that, if he wants to stride, fine.

But, don't let the stride degrade what he just learned.

Has anyone been watching "Knight School" on ESPN. Bobby Knight was shown playing wiffle ball with his grandson. The kid looks to be 3 years old or so. He's using a flintstone type bat with the huge barrel. The kid just rotates like hell, using his body only, and hits a rocket back at Knight that just misses his groin.

In less than 5 years, unless he's very fortunate, he'll be swinging with his arms. Considering he's only 3 (I'm guessing on the age) he swings the bat better than 90% of all amateur players. And, those 90% probably swung it better when they were 3..........before they got instruction.

That is the state of the state of baseball.

[wogdoggy]

The kid looks to be 3 years old or so. He's using a flintstone type bat with the huge barrel. The kid just rotates like hell using his body only and hits a rocket back at Knight that just misses his groin.



Damn funny you mentioned that.I have some vid of my younger kid hitting off the t with that flinstone bat...AMAZING..

DIXON IS RIGHT.

[swingbuster]

Very bad cue.

true.. i don't like it either...you do need to know what it ienvolves

[swingbuster]

maybe just pick up set down?

Please no...he will back foot spin. If you no stride at least shift into the front side

[jojab]

[QUOTE=wogdoggy]

im thinking of just using his top hand drill into the heavy bag to start.

QUOTE]

Personally, I'd avoid the top hand drill. If you are going to do a one-handed drill do it with the bottom hand.

What I'd do is have him turn his knees in, no stride, press the bat against the top of his back shoulder, tilt and turn to the ball (keeping his box and keeping the bat pressed lightly against his back shoulder). Have him turn a couple of times towards the ball (or heavy bag) without unhinging and then on the third time release and hit the ball or the bag.

I'd video him from both the back (mainly to check his angles) and from the side while he's doing these drills and then post them again.

Joe

[wogdoggy]

thanks joe,willing to try anything.

[swingbuster]

If you are going to do a one-handed drill do it with the bottom hand.


Woggy...

One problem I have seen is that they are trying to do the bottom hand drill when swinging and they cannot stop the top hand from taking over. You have posted that over a few times. The intuitive thing IS to do more bottom hand drills with more rotation but it doesn't work very often unless you throw right and bat left

If the top hand is unleveraged in the hand set up and is following the handle down in the plane transition from a vertical bat to the launch slot at swing initiation then it is still disabled as far as pulling forward. The bottom hand WILL connect..I promise.

I can fix that in 10 swings and then see how bad the rest really is...usually not bad

im thinking of just using his top hand drill into the heavy bag to start.

Do the drill with the top hand into the bag from three positions.

1. the exact position his bat and top hand start from now

2. A higher rear elbow and the bat splitting the helmet

3. a higher rear elbow and the bat in front and tipped to pitcher

Start your hip turn as the bat is coming down and behind you in position 2 & 3.

If you cannot feel that call Ofher and get on the 36 month plan...by then he will want to play soccer

[wogdoggy]

I can fix that in 10 swings and then see how bad the rest really is...usually not bad


ELABORATE in english please!:p

[tom.guerry]

Peavy has a nice set of progressive drills for starting with lead arm one arm drills,then adding top hand action to bottom hand in steps, but Mankin's approach (start with one arm back arm/pathfinder to learn "chp" feel of "nondominant top hand/back arm,then add lead arm"BHT", then add earlier top hand loading/launch "tht")makes the most sense IF you believe in the torque component of the swing and it's importance in determining swing trajectory and optimizing swing quickness.

[swingbuster]

Do the drill with the top hand into the bag from three positions.

1. the exact position his bat and top hand start from now

2. A higher rear elbow and the bat splitting the helmet

3. a higher rear elbow and the bat in front and tipped to pitcher

Start your hip turn as the bat is coming down and behind you in position 2 & 3.

My hope is that through this drill you will feel what happens when you cannot lead with the top hand...it begins there and ends there for many

[Ohfor]

I don't see any takers on Swingy's one minute fix.

His claims just get more and more ridiculous. All in an attempt to look smart. Something has to make up for the HBH.

He'll give you the "little league" swing that wears out early. Just give him 30 minutes of your time.

We'll give you the "high level swing" that will take you to your genetic potential.

36 months? If you don't have it, don't start. That would be considered a very short hitting learning curve. Most spend their entire lives and don't get it. A couple hang around here.

[wogdoggy]

36 months? If you don't have it, don't start. That would be considered a very short hitting learning curve. Most spend their entire lives and don't get it. A couple hang around here.

I bought the dixon book and tried to get this kid to turn from the middle.i tried to get him to go forward by turning.showed him the hip placement etc etc..He fights me and says it doesnt feel right,thats how I know its good.lol...problem is you WILL get worse b4 you get better.

Right now the season has started already and pup made the B team.He is a big strong kid at five foot 11,, he can throw pretty hard has a great change and curve and could benefit almost any team as a pitcher.He really is a fair position player and I mostly spent my time pitching with him or letting him pound balls in our backyard cage.So if the coaches want him for next year it will be because of his pitching and " hitting' .BASICALLY he has to perform pretty much right now and have a big year to have a shot when they take it from 26 kids down to 11.

So 36 months may be out of the question if he wants to keep playing in HS.
once you are cut or on the outs as a sophomore its hard to get back in.We live in du page county in Illinois.This is a very competitive and above avg income county.It was like the inner city was 30 yrs ago..KIDS upon KIDS upon KIDS.My hope and his too is to play throughout HS and into college.My best memories in life were from HS sports and athletics.I would love him to have the same.Sure ohfor he can get the same feeling wrestling etc,,and when its alll over {AND IT WILL BE FOR 99.9 percent what do you have left but the memories.
ohfor your kid has a nice swing,do you think he could play for a major universitie program or just for a smaller college?Did your kid play ball throughout his HS years ? did he walk on for a college tryout? What position does he play? The reason I say that is because these kids arent pitchers only or DH's only.They have to perform in the field too.,Yet if he can knock the snot out of the ball they will usually try to find a position to "HIDE him at for his stick..But that doesnt happen much in HS.


I was hoping steve could come out and work some magic with son.But i do know its tough to do in 3 days.

[jojab]

Wog,

Don't be too discouraged by Ohfor's comments. I think his main point was that Swingbuster's approach is to put a bandaid on by tipping the bat this way and that with the hands (we have been promised video as you well know), while Ohfor's approach is a long-term solution. That is not to say that by teaching PCR the way Ohfor and others do that you won't start to see results soon. Ohfor's own son seems to be advancing rather quickly given when he started.

Have you tried showing your son clips of him versus high-level hitters? If so, how does he view his own swing in relation to those?

Do you have an L-screen in your cage? If so, go back and read Ohfor's suggestion about saying "go" and having him swing. Modify that - get about 15 feet away and fire balls in from behind the L-Screen. He'll "learn" to remove some of the slop on his own.

Obviously his visit with Steve will jump start all of this and a light should click on for him.

Joe

[wogdoggy]

ohfor used to rub me the wrong way but he is a "BLUNT" instrument and he is what he is.Probably not a bad guy and probably not as blunt in person as in print.

I do feel that its an "us or them" attitude on this board.personally I think these little digs at each other is a joke.Guerry knows more than me ohfor knows more swingbuster and of course steve too.EVERYONE of these guys have contributed here and have HONESTLY tried to help people here looking for it.TO me that means ALL of you GUYS are down to EARTH good people trying to help..but unfortunately it takes on the "us or our way vs their totally wrong way"...Some great minds on this board just think if we took away all the personalities...

[GoDeep]

Hey Wogdoggy,

Jojab's post on putting the bat on the back shoulder is an excellent drill to understand the hand position after the back shoulder has turned the corner.
i'd rest the bat on the outside of the rear deltoid with the hands close to the shoulder, wrists cocked, box tight. now rotate the hips that are connected to the torso that is connected to the shoulders around the TILTED spine. rotate fully until the back forearm is perpendicular to the ground. repeat this move until it feels comfortable. watch the tilt. watch the front elbow(stays at the same angle that was set at launch. and stays elevated). it is this "turned corner" position that the hands will fly to the ball from the rotational forces and the lowering of the rear forearm(swingbuster's cue) get the loaded top hand in position to unload at the last millesecond.

Getting the corner turned with the hands in this position and the wrists loaded is one of the keys to a high level swing. good luck with your son.

ps. swinging from a tilted position is difficult especially when you're used to swinging upright. it looks like your son swings upright(although it was a high pitch)

[swingbuster]

I bought the dixon book and tried to get this kid to turn from the middle.i tried to get him to go forward by turning.showed him the hip placement etc etc..He fights me and says it doesnt feel right,thats how I know its good.lol...problem is you WILL get worse b4 you get better.


I hope that felt bad

Smart kid...you go forward while turning back( inward) initially. That is the part they do poorly. When the ball comes into the zone and they are loaded properly they hit great. Turning out / forward into the ball is the easy part. . You do not get worse to get better.

Fix the hand set first ....heck...watch Turner Network and see the MLB guys that hit like I am talking about.

ELABORATE in english please!

Change his hand set where his top hand cannot lead at launch and you will find him in need of less fixing elsewhere
!

[Ohfor]

Woggy,

36 months was Swingy's term...

But.....if your son takes 36 months to learn this stuff, it's not worth it? Who cares how old he is? Who cares what level he plays? Either he wants to learn or he doesn't. Why can't he walk on at a small college when his 36 months are up?

You said it all with this...

...he fights me and says it doesn't feel right

I'll up it to 48 months based on that.

And, it's still worth it......to me. You?

Let me tell you something.....if it feels right it's probably wrong. Feeling right gets you his current results.

I think the "have to have it" mentality is what I tried to point out to you the first time I jabbed you.

And, I don't mean it as a jab this time. It's just simply the truth. You have to want it. We've learned a lot from Steve E and the PCR crowd. But, the bottom line is.......Brandon wants it. He isn't wasting any instructors time.

[wogdoggy]

I'm going to come clean here..My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated.
Then i started looking for other answers,

try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.

I know dixon is closer to the RIGHT way but after years of doing it this way it felt bad.
I print out the different posts here and try a few things but Honestly I would even doubt myself after all the hoops I ran this kid through.I wanted my hand off of him and i wanted someone else to help him..but I get the knob to the ball guys and never go back.

The only cue my old man EVER gave me growing up was USE YOUR BODY.Thats it.Dixon is right we DESTROY our kids..and i'm guilty.:ughh

[jsiggy]

What can I do to fix this kid before STEVE gets here.


From your comments I gather Steve is coming fairly soon. If so, I would recommend just leaving your son alone for now. Give him time to just play and psyche himself up for the changes he'll soon be making. Nothing worse than changing yet again only to find out the change you were working so hard to get into his swing, is not something you want or a good way to add it.


I was hoping steve could come out and work some magic with son.But i do know its tough to do in 3 days.

If he's like all the other kids I know of he will improve while Steve is there.

More importantly you and he will know what to do afterwards... the time won't be as important as you'll have a direction which works and you'll be crystal clear on that direction.


I'm going to come clean here..My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated.
Then i started looking for other answers,

try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.


IMO, another reason to leave him alone for now.

[jsiggy]

.
I can fix that in 10 swings and then see how bad the rest really is...usually not bad


I would like to see the 10 swing fix you keep talking about. Could you get a kid who needs this fix and video his 11 swings, so I can see the results?

If you do not have a place or way to post, I will host the video clip.

If you do not know how to get it from tape to video, PM me and I will give you my address and reimburse you for the mini-DV and create the video (and post it).

If you do not have a video camera, PM me and I will reimburse you the cost to rent one.

[fungo22]

In my opinion, Ohfor is right on in what he has been saying in this thread.

1. The young man has a classic hands/arm swing pattern: He strides with weight shift to create momentum to help his hands get started. He stands up and opens his front side so that his lower body does not obstruct "throwing the barrel," "throwing the hands" or taking "his hands to the ball." He "drags" the bat with his hands/arms. He does it pretty well so I would predict he has experienced quite a bit of success. But his success will start diminishing as he faces 80 (and above) mph pitching. His batspeed is probably pretty good, but his swing is too long and slow. His posture is not efficient, so he will have trouble quickly getting the barrel on an accurate swing path, especially on pitches up and down in the zone.

2. What is needed is not a "fix." What is needed is a more athletic, efficient way to get the bat to the ball. By "efficient," I mean quicker, more accurate barrel path and with more power. By "athletic," I mean in the same way that elite athletes at the highest levels of baseball get their bats to the ball.

Steve will not fix him in one or three days. Steve will show him how elite athletes swing a bat and will do "any number of things" to help him begin to move in more athletic, efficient ways. It will definitely not "feel right" because he is not used to moving like an elite athlete. He is used to doing it the way most athletic kids end up doing it ... and never reaching their potential. After practicing these new movements, they will begin to feel more natural.

Credibility problems are not uncommon. Is he open to reason? Or does he have too much teenage male chemistry in him to think about and understand what is in his long-term best interest? Do you have Steve's DVD? If you can't get him in person, you'll need the DVD. Let him read and understand the things we are saying here. There are tons of MLB swing video available on the internet (get jsiggy to give you the link). Slow them down (with Quicktime) and go over them with him frame-by-frame. Go over his swing. Communicate. I had to admit to my sons that 75% of what I taught them was wrong. But there was a reason that I was wrong then and that I'm right now. I lacked the "trainer's perspective."

The trainer's perspective is now available. He either takes advantage of it while there's still time, or he dooms himselve to eventual failure as he moves into higher levels of competition. I know. I used to be a hitting coach at lower level college ball. I taught pretty much the same swing your son is demonstrating. So I know things about pigeons. His swing MIGHT get him as far as D3, non-scholarship baseball, depending on how athletic he is.

Or so it seems to me.

[Ursa Major]

Wogdoggy said: He fights me and says it doesnt feel right,thats how I know its good.lol...problem is you WILL get worse b4 you get better....

...My kid doesnt trust me anymore.First it was batspeed,we had great results for awhile.I used jacks cue of pulling the left shoulder back to the catcher and it was working.BUt he only hit to left field and had trouble on low and outside,and over rotated. Then i started looking for other answers,

Try this son,try that,do it this way,,oh no that was wrong.Got dixon's book.Woggy, that is one 'ell of a can of worms you've opened up here -- one that (to mix and butcher my metaphors) strikes deep into the heart of many an issue. Many of us coach our kids' teams, but deep in our hearts what we really want is our DD or DS (i.e., our own child) to excel. My 11 y/o kid's only a so-so athlete, so I'll settle for "... to be the sort of hitter that his teammates will sit up and take notice when he gets to the plate."

And, like you, I've lost credibility as I try to undo some of what I've taught him for the first few years of his baseball life. Fortunately, I got waylaid by the Setpro posse before I could get too far with the Batspeed learning, but he still fights to use his arms because, you guessed it, the whole "box" and "connection" thing seems unnatural. And, he knows the rewards for what he needs to do -- bust hit butt and alter his mind frame -- aren't going to be great. So, why not go directly to immediate gratification and play video games with his nerd buddies?

We see the potential for our kids to surpass their peers -- at least in their mechanics -- but they don't live in these forums and don't have the evidence we do that all this works. So why should they get excited about it? And, frankly, it doesn't help when I suggest going to the batting cage to a kid who last year happily went once a week, but have his mother mutter, "Oh, quit pushing the kid so you can live out your dream." So, the kid sees this as a potential intrafamily bargaining chip, somehow.

And I've seen other kids with potential play that chip, literally to the point of: "Sure, Dad, I'll go to the cages today, if we can stop at Gamestop and check out the new video games on the way back."

I think it's legitimate to use baseball as a life lesson in this way -- to impress upon the kid that, if he wants something, he'll have to work at it. It would seem that "having" to go to the batting cages or go work on your pitching is a bit easier to have to tolerate than, say, going to the library for three hours to study your science in the hope that you'll become a doctor fifteen years from now.

Still, I don't push. If he wants to go the the field and work on his game, I'm available. But I warn him, "Okay, we don't have to go to the cages today, but understand that if you start whining because you didn't make the All-Star team, I'm going to point out that you made your choice back here in February when you played Halo 2 while the other kids were hitting balls."

[swingbuster]

UM..good post . I worked a lot with my son and had the opposite experience. I tried to simplify his swing to no stride , preset bat in 45 slot, drop heel and turn. It was late in his career that he became frustrated as he was hitting from pure athletism but I could see something was not right in his swing. He looked much like the bat dragging posted swings we see here mostly and he had no sense of where the barrel was.

As his senior year came around he quit working at it. He began the year at .. 415 at 28 at bats and then lost almost 100 points when people pitched him down and away and my turn methods failed him.

I discovered the higher more vertical hand set late in the season and he was able to "Piazza" the away ball to RC and finished fairly strong and made the All- State team.

He and I went to a batting cage a few months ago( he has graduated now) and I showed him the better loading pattern and he hit the ball hard in all pitch locations. I saw what I missed for him

I had cloned him as a young kid into a swing that he could be quick and he hit many LD shots starting varsity in the 9th grade weighing 130 but all to LF. I modeled his swing after the NYMAN statement " I can create a high level swing with little to no arm action". The corollary might be " but not in everybody". I even printed that statement and high lighted it and had it on my desk. What is did not know is that I was creating a dead front foot and dead hands hitter in a very athletic kid. I was taking away his gifts so he could get around quickly but I removed his ability to release the barrel

I would give anything to go back and give him the freedom of movement to load , stride, and use the BHUT action that lets him feel his hands release that clearly fits him . His best friend is a senior and I stayed with the team as a hitting coach. I was able to change him this year and the difference is amazing. He is batting well over .500 and hit a grandslam yesterday.

Maybe you should be more open minded to what does " feel right " for him
and try some different approaches.

A kid must " find the bat barrel" and be able to hit the ball hard with minimal effort over the whole 17 inches of plate to enjoy the game.

This story spanned 12 years of experiences with young kids and 25 years of studying swing mechanics and applying them.

I wish everybody a great experience with and for their kids. As Steve would tell you..everybody has a little pain buried in their quest

[wogdoggy]

So I know things about pigeons. His swing MIGHT get him as far as D3, non-scholarship baseball, depending on how athletic he is.


When college time comes around We will pick a college for academics.Not one neccessarily where he can play ball.Brains will take a kid 99.9 percent further in life than a college baseball carreer...I really do appreciate everybodys help here.

Thanks ursa and swingy for telling your stories.
Yeah we all have visions of our kids going "PRO" but when its over the memories of the team the bus rides etc etc.will last forever.

BTW fungo great post thanks

[wogdoggy]

Steve will not fix him in one or three days. Steve will show him how elite athletes swing a bat and will do "any number of things" to help him begin to move in more athletic, efficient ways.


I know steve is an instructor not a magician,but the bottom line is SOMEBODY else has to do it at this point.i have thrown to much Cr@p at this kid in the last year.he is learning to hate me as much as my wife does...lol..:D

[Ohfor]

Whaaaa. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

All because something isn't easy.

If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

Everyone of us has told our son's/daughters wrong stuff until we got the right stuff.

Suck it up and get to work.

[wogdoggy]

lets go ohfor two out of three.lol.:D..when i come to st louis im gonna look you up.

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster, thanks for sharing your story. We may have differences among all of us in hitting technique, but sometimes its the broader issues that bring us together. (Or conversely, tear us apart -- like with Ohfor.)

You suggested, "Maybe you should be more open minded to what does " feel right " for him and try some different approaches." Well, you wouldn't say that if you saw his swing now; he's dropping his hands and his bathead horribly and is missing the high fastball. So, he knows he needs work; the question is whether he can trust me to be the teacher. (And don't ask me to direct him to the team manager; he can't coach hitting for beans, and what he does teach sounds like the worst of Charlie Lau.)

But, a lot of it comes down to the kid's desire. Ohfor scolds, "Suck it up and get to work." What good does that do if we just chase our kids out of baseball and impair our relationships with them (and, as Woggy notes, our wives to boot)? Ohfor's kid wanted it badly enough to defy the odds and develop from a weak early high school hitter to a college player.

My kid doesn't have that drive or agenda. Hey, he just told me today that he wasn't all that interested in going to Disneyland over spring break; he'd really like to start learning computer programming!

[Ohfor]

... My kid doesn't have that drive or agenda.

I have no problem with that until he or you stand in someone elses way.

[wogdoggy]

I have no problem with that until he or you stand in someone elses way.


stand in somebody's way? wtf does that mean?:noidea

[bbjunkie]

I was hoping steve could come out and work some magic with son.But i do know its tough to do in 3 days.
Having had Steve here last weekend, I can tell you that every kid who walked in the door went out a better batter. I don't know if he can "fix" your kid, but I'm sure he can improve his hitting. Then its up to you to follow through and make sure your son doesn't slip back into bad habits.

[LClifton]

If it was easy everyone would be doing it.
Everyone of us has told our son's/daughters wrong stuff until we got the right stuff.
Suck it up and get to work.
Well stated.
Believe in your kid when they don't....Just when you sense that they are ready to "just take a break" urge them to excel...

Woggy,
WHEN your son improves it will be a great day(s)..
Go for it, the journey is priceless.
Hard as H*** and worth it.
I encourage you to continue,
we all have had to say, "What we did yesterday may be inaccurate, let's do this......your understanding will get better and so will his.

LClifton

[wogdoggy]

Thanks EVERYBODY for the great advice.