Best Player not in the Hall not named Jackson or Rose?

[Gamingboy]

Who's the best player not in the hall who is not named Shoeless Joe Jackson or Pete Rose?

[vasprtsfn]

Hitters:
1. Andre Dawson
2. Jim Rice
3. Don Mattingly

Pitchers:
1. Jack Morris
2. Lee Smith
3. Goose Gossage

[Brad Harris]

Ron Santo.

My top ten (in order):
1. Santo
2. Allen
3. Minoso
4. Simmons
5. Blyleven
6. Gossage
7. Trammell
8. Boyer
9. Magee
10. Torre

[538280]

Now that Torriente has gotten in, IMO the flag has passed to Ron Santo.

My top 10 eligible position players goes like this:

1.Ron Santo
2.Dick Allen
3.Jimmy Wynn
4.Bobby Grich
5.Bobby Bonds
6.Alan Trammell
7.Sal Bando
8.Sherry Magee
9.Joe Torre
10.Wally Berger

Other than a few questionable selections (Cooper, Manley, Pompez), I think the recent Negro Leaugue Committee did a pretty good job. They eliminated all four Negro Leaguers who would have been on this list (Torriente, Suttles, Mackey, and Williard Brown).

With pitchers, I don't have a long list so I can't just copy them from my top 100, but the first three that come to mind are definitely Gossage, Blyleven, and Lee Smith

[jalbright]

Since the question isn't limited to major leaguers or even guys eligible yet for the HOF, my list will go 25 deep to get 10 currently eligible for the HOF. I will omit active players, however.

1. Sadaharu Oh (Japan)
2. Masaichi Kaneda (Japan)
3. Rickey Henderson
4. Victor Starffin (Japan)
5. Cal Ripken Jr.
6. Akihiko Bessho (Japan)
7. Masaaki Koyama (Japan)
8. Ron Santo (probably the top man the way the question was meant)
9. Dick Allen
10.Kazuhisa Inao (Japan)
11. Bert Blyleven
12. Tony Gwynn
13. Bill Dahlen
14. Katsuya Nomura (Japan)
15. Deacon White
16. Shigeo Nagashima (Japan)
17. Sherry Magee
18. Isao Harimoto
19. Cannonball Dick Redding (Negro Leagues)
20. Roberto Alomar
21. Hiromitsu Ochiai (Japan)
22. Larry Doyle
23. Paul Hines
24. Tim Raines
25. Harry Stovey

Sosa and/or Palmieiro might make the list if not for steroid questions, and I'd prefer to let that issue die down and let some time pass before making that decision.

Jim Albright

[leecemark]

--Santo easily. He makes the top 5 all time at his position and nobody else in the top 10 at theirs is outside the Hall. This excludes guys not yet eligible. Henderson and Ripken (are top 5 at LF/SS) and possibly Gwynn (top 10 in RF) are more deserving, but I assume they will make it as soon as they come up for election.
-- Oh I'd like to see inducted, but he and any of the other Japanese players Jim mentions would require a change to the eligibility structure of the Hall of Fame. Its also tough to directly compare them to MLB players in a rating system. Even if Oh was eligible I'd rank him lower at 1B than Santo at 3B FWIW.

[rsuriyop]

1. Ron Santo
2. Dick Allen
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Sherry Magee
5. Andre Dawson
6. Albert Belle
7. Alan Trammell
8. Tony Oliva

Not so sure about the order, but IMHO, Santo should go in before any of the above.

[DoubleX]

My list starts with Santo. But here are the list of guys I'd probably put in if I could:

Catcher
For Sure: Joe Torre, Ted Simmons, Wally Schang
I'd Consider: Bill Freehan, Thurman Munson, Lance Parrish, Elston Howard, Bob Boone

First Base
For Sure: Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez
I'd Consider: Norm Cash, Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly

Second Base
For Sure: Joe Gordon, Bobby Grich, Larry Doyle, Lou Whitaker
I'd Consider: Willie Randolph, Buddy Myer

Shortstop
For Sure: Alan Trammell, Bill Dahlen
I'd Consider: No one really.

Third Base
For Sure: Ron Santo, Ken Boyer, Heinie Groh, Darrell Evans, Stan Hack
I'd Consider: Graig Nettles, Bob Elliot, Sal Bando

Left Field
For Sure: Minnie Minoso, Albert Belle, Sherry Magee
I'd Consider: Bob Johnson, Frank Howard, Jim Rice, Bobby Veach

Center Field
For Sure: Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy
I'd Consider: Jimmy Wynn, Wally Berger, Cesar Cedeno, Fred Lynn, Ginger Beaumont

Right Field
For Sure: No one really.
I'd Consider: Bobby Bonds, Dave Parker, Tony Oliva, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Evans, Ken Singleton, Reggie Smith, Rocky Colavito, Jack Clark

Starting Pitchers
For Sure: Bert Blyleven
I'd Consider: Tons of guys. Too many to list.

Relief Pitchers
For Sure: Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry
I'd Consider: Lee Smith, John Wetteland, Tom Henke, Sparky Lyle

[NOMAR22]

My list

1.Jim Rice
2.Ron Santo
3.Sadahara Oh
4.Bert Blyleven
5.Gil Hodges
6.Andre Dawson
7.Jim Kaat
8.Minnie Minoso
9.Steve Garvey
10.Dick Allen
11.Tony Oliva
12.Bobby Bonds
13.Dave Parker
14.Jim Torre
15.tie Goose Gossage
15.tie.Luis Tiant
15.tie Ron Guidry

[NOMAR22]

Someone should start talling the vote.
1st place 10 pts
2nd place 9 pts
etc

[ElHalo]

--Santo easily. He makes the top 5 all time at his position and nobody else in the top 10 at theirs is outside the Hall.

I think you could make the argument that Joe Gordon is a top 10 all time 2Bman.

In my view it's either Gordon or Sherry Magee.

By the way: I heard somebody the other day on television mention Magee's name, which was weird enough in and of itself, but they pronounced it the same as Willie McGee's last name. In my opinion, that's not accurate, as Magee is not an Irish, but a French, name, and should probably be pronounced to rhyme with Tommy Agee's name. Anybody know any better than me?

Magee's name came up in the context of a discussion on whether or not Larry Walker is a Hall of Famer. One guy said that only three people have ever led their league in BA, OBP, and SLG in a season and not made the Hall, and the other guy noted that two of them were Sherry Magee and George Stone, who, presumably, nobody had ever heard of. I wondered slightly whether they pulled that stat off this site.

And also: How on Earth can you consider Santo a top 5 3Bman? Even coming from your point of view, how can he possibly be better than Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Mathews, or Baker?

[HOOTIE]

Either Ron Santo or Dick Allen.

[leecemark]

--He can't be better than Schmidt, Mathews, Brett or Boggs. I suppose I could be persauded Baker belongs ahead of him too, but I've got HR Baker #6 now. Baker may have peaked a little higher, but Santo had a much tougher (perhaps the toughest) league to contende with. Santo's prime and career were a little longer and he was probably a better defender.

[Sockeye]

Eligiable Hitters

1. Andre Dawson
2. Darrell Evans
3. Dave Kingman
4. Dale Murphy
5. Harold Baines
6. Dave Parker
7. Vada Pinson
8. Dwight Evans
9. Rusty Staub
10. Jim Rice

Eligiable Pitchers

1. Bobby Mathews
2. Tommy John
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Tony Mullane
5. Jim Kaat
6. Jim McCormick
7. Gus Weyhing
8. Jack Morris
9. Jack Quinn
10. Dennis Martinez

[538280]

I have a question for all of you here. The thread titles says "Best player outside the Hall not named Jackson or Rose?". Rose certainly would classify as the best player outside the Hall, but I have a quesition regarading Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson, to me, clearly is NOT the best player not in the HOF, even excluding Rose. Out of my top 10 I posted earlier, I am fairly confident that Santo, Allen, Wynn, and Grich are solidly better than Joe Jackson. I think that Bobby Bonds and Trammell are better than Jackson, though I could see the case otherwise. Bando, might be better than Jackson and as much as I'd like to call him that, I have him just a few spots behind.

He's close to the remaining four too, but personally, if he were included in this thread, I'd put him 7th on my list. I'm just interested, where would others put him?

[leecemark]

--Santo and Allen yes. If you ignore the stench around him, I'd put Jackson ahead of the rest of the guys you mention though (excepting Rose, who is clearly more deserving and, disregarding his disgrace, he is more deserving than Santo or Allen).

[justice22]

roger maris and keith hernandez

[Brad Harris]

...where would others put [Joe Jackson]?

Interesting question; I've never given it much thought as Jackson's (stillborn) candidacy has always been a "yes" or "no", "in" or "out" proposition. My knee-jerk reaction would be to say that he's surely among the top 10, but a second look at the candidates - and especially if the candidate pool is expanded to include others - negro and japanese stars, all retired major leaguers - then I guess I see Jackson somewhere in the 26-35 range. He doesn't crack my top 25.

Wow. :cool:

Great question! :clapping

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Isn't Rickey Henderson the best player not in the HoF? I know it is just semantics and Rickey is not yet eligible but the question asked was a little vague.

[dgarza]

Isn't Rickey Henderson the best player not in the HoF? I know it is just semantics and Rickey is not yet eligible but the question asked was a little vague.
I would say it's Roger Clemens, if you're looking at it your way.

I have Jackson ranked pretty high. He would make my top 5, maybe my top 3?

[Imapotato]

I have a question for all of you here. The thread titles says "Best player outside the Hall not named Jackson or Rose?". Rose certainly would classify as the best player outside the Hall, but I have a quesition regarading Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson, to me, clearly is NOT the best player not in the HOF, even excluding Rose. Out of my top 10 I posted earlier, I am fairly confident that Santo, Allen, Wynn, and Grich are solidly better than Joe Jackson. I think that Bobby Bonds and Trammell are better than Jackson, though I could see the case otherwise. Bando, might be better than Jackson and as much as I'd like to call him that, I have him just a few spots behind.

He's close to the remaining four too, but personally, if he were included in this thread, I'd put him 7th on my list. I'm just interested, where would others put him?


I am going to agree with you here

I have a wide open hall for great players based on character,imprtance in their time, how they did in their era ONLY, defense, stats and intangibles

Allen
Grich
Wynn
Santo
Mullane
Dale Murphy
Roger Maris
Andre Dawson
Joe Gordon
Sherry Magee
Jack Morris
Tim Raines
Darrell Evans
Minnie Minoso
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre (although he'll go in as manager)
Spud Davis
Bill Freehan
Alan Trammell
Lou Whitaker
Bill Dahlen

fit that bill for me

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I would say it's Roger Clemens, if you're looking at it your way.

I have Jackson ranked pretty high. He would make my top 5, maybe my top 3?
Yes, that's true. Clemens hasn't announced his retirement as far as I know.

[Brad Harris]

Yes, that's true. Clemens hasn't announced his retirement as far as I know.

I thought his absence on a major league roster would be more telling. Most players don't "announce" their retirement, they just don't sign another contract.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I thought his absence on a major league roster would be more telling. Most players don't "announce" their retirement, they just don't sign another contract.
Give it a month. When he's eligible to sign with somebody and doesn't will we know for sure.

[Chisox]

--He can't be better than Schmidt, Mathews, Brett or Boggs. I suppose I could be persauded Baker belongs ahead of him too, but I've got HR Baker #6 now. Baker may have peaked a little higher, but Santo had a much tougher (perhaps the toughest) league to contende with. Santo's prime and career were a little longer and he was probably a better defender.

For what it's worth I've got Santo MILES ahead of Boggs at #4 all-time, behind Schimidt, Mathews, and Brett, in that order.

[538280]

Wynn


Wow, don't tell me you like Jimmy Wynn too?

Where are you and what have you done with Potato?

[DoubleX]

Why isn't Santo in? I always just naturally assume he is and treat him like his in. I actually have to make a point to correct myself. I think there are good arguments to be made on both sides for almost all players sitting on the outside, but I really can't see any plausible debate about Santo's candidacy. He's a Hall of Famer.

[ElHalo]

I have a question for all of you here. The thread titles says "Best player outside the Hall not named Jackson or Rose?". Rose certainly would classify as the best player outside the Hall, but I have a quesition regarading Joe Jackson.

Joe Jackson, to me, clearly is NOT the best player not in the HOF, even excluding Rose. Out of my top 10 I posted earlier, I am fairly confident that Santo, Allen, Wynn, and Grich are solidly better than Joe Jackson. I think that Bobby Bonds and Trammell are better than Jackson, though I could see the case otherwise. Bando, might be better than Jackson and as much as I'd like to call him that, I have him just a few spots behind.

He's close to the remaining four too, but personally, if he were included in this thread, I'd put him 7th on my list. I'm just interested, where would others put him?

Jackson would easily be number one for me, by so much ahead of anyone else that it's absolutely ridiculous.

If you take a look at my personal list of the greatest players of all time, the second highest eligible guy (well, Jackson's not eligible, so I guess I'm talking about the very highest eligible guy) is probably Sherry Magee, who'd probably rank around 90th or so on my greatest players of all time list. Joe Jackson currently ranks 10th (behind Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Speaker, Williams, and Mantle).

Allen I probably underrate, and will admit that I need to do some more thinking on where he should go (seeing as how he falls into a big grouping of 60's-70's National League players I never heard of until I hit my 20's), but none of those other guys come remotely close, I mean, remotely close, to Jackson.

Santo's probably the best, right? Well, I mean, take a look at Santo vs. Jackson:

Jackson:
Rel BA: 132
Rel OBP: 124
Rel SLG: 145

And, to be fair to Santo and cut out any decline period, Santo through age 30:

Rel BA: 104
Rel OBP: 110
Rel SLG: 120

Yes, Santo was a 3B, and a pretty good one. Jackson was a LF (which was probably akin to being a RF in the dead ball era, just as 2B and 3B were kind of switched), and a pretty good one. Jackson had speed, Santo didn't. Santo played in a stronger league.

There's no amount of tweaking and twinging and adjusting, though, that can make Ron Santo look like anything close to as good of a baseball player as Joe Jackson.

And Jimmy Wynn? Come back to me when you find those 106 missing BA points.