Randy Johnson: Seattle or Arizona cap?

[Mattingly]

It was being discussed amongst several people elsewhere that he'd achieved much of his greatness towards the end of his career as an Arizona Diamondback. However, some people said that he had very good years as a Seattle Mariner.

Which team do you most relate Randy "Unit" Johnson to, that he'd likely wear their cap into Cooperstown?

Thanks. :)

[west coast orange and black]

i am confident that i can supply a correct answer for this, two-three... as there is no wrong way to go on this one.

the arizonans get a hof member. yea

[Captain Cold Nose]

Johnson became an elite pitcher with Seattle. His performance in Arizona cemented that status, and he probably achieved his most notable feat in Arizona in winning games 6 and 7 of the World Series.
Neither would be ridiculous.

[The Dude]

It's really an arguement that can really go one way in my opinion.

Sure, in Seattle he had.
-8 Full seasons, and two half seasons.
-his first great seasons.

But the thing remains, is lets go back to 1998 before he was traded. How sure could we have been that Johnson would become who he did? It wasn't until he won Four cy youngs in a row in arizona from 1999-2002 and Two triple crowns there, a WS MVP, and of course the crucial Game 6 and 7. Arizona was where Randy Johnson became the second greatest LH pitcher of all time.

[Mattingly]

Thanks, guys (and future gals and guys who may later reply). :D

I wanted to ask the question but didn't have any large list of accomplishments he'd done for both teams. Perhaps I'll just look further and see what he's done to make him notable in both places.

Either that or I could just get lazy and ask if he should go in as a Yankee. :p :crazy :laugh

[micsmith]

I'm not sure which team he has more years, games, and innins pitched, but he won more Cy Young Awards with AZ, had his biggest strikeout seasons with AZ, one his perfect game with AZ, and of course the World Series with AZ, so unless the Mariners bring him back to play out the last of his career, I'm pretty sure he'll go in as a Diamondback.

[csh19792001]

I say an Astros cap. That's the team he performed best for, ya know?

In 11 games he went 10-1 with 4 shutouts and an ERA+ of 318 . :waving

[Mattingly]

I say an Astros cap. That's the team he performed best for, ya know?

In 11 games he went 10-1 with 4 shutouts and an ERA+ of 318 . :waving
That's an interesting perspective. Nice set of stats also. :D :laugh :p

[125osprey]

May I suggest a compromise? Let him go in as an Expo.

Seriously, no one would complain if he went in as Mariner or as Diamondback. A coin toss would settle the matter.

[KCGHOST]

I imagine the HoF would have no problem with either of those teams going on his HoF cap. The problem will be if he decides he wants an NY on his cap.

[johnny]

I say an Astros cap. That's the team he performed best for, ya know?

In 11 games he went 10-1 with 4 shutouts and an ERA+ of 318 . :waving

Yep, as an M's fan I remember it well that was when he was throwing the crap fit :ughh that the M's weren't willing to offer him a new long term contract for the big bucks he wanted. So despite the fact that he was still under the last year of a long term contract he became a clubhouse distraction and in the first half of the season he was 9-10 with an era of 4.1 plus.
Once traded he was 'reborn' his skills returned. So indeed, he is quite the 'Big Unit' in more than just being 6-10.

But hey, the M's were in a tough spot. In retrospect he would have been a bargain at what he was asking for but -at the time- the M's were reluctant to sign a then 6-10 player, age 35 at the time, with a history of lower back issues to a huge ground breaking contract and instead offered him something that would have kept him at the elite level.
M's management still had hopes of keeping Jr. and a new fellow by the name of A-Rod was all the rage.
And getting Freddy Garcia in return wasn't too bad. :laugh :laugh :laugh
So all in all, everyone came out okay.

[Imapotato]

I just don't see it with him in regards to the HOF

He is a 6'10 K pitcher

He had a few great years but other then that is 5 years, with only one 'heroic' feat a HOF career?

And don't quote adjusted ERA+, 11 of the last 20 great ERA+ happened in this era, so something is wrong with that stat...it's glaring

To me, if Nolan Ryan was 6'10 he'd have the same stats or better

His 5 Cy Youngs will probably make him a lock and I am not arguing vehemently about it...I just don't see him as an elite P compared to Maddux, Clemens or Pedro

[BlairRosen]

Randy Johnson will be enshrined wearing Arizona Diamondbacks hat for certain.

[Blackout]

i'd say he should wear arizona

[Naliamegod]

To me, if Nolan Ryan was 6'10 he'd have the same stats or better


Height has nothing to do with how good a pitcher is.

Though I would love for him to wear a Mariner cap, he will go in as a Diamondback

[Mattingly]

That man of the hour himself opines. Or then again, maybe not. :D

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/01/sports/baseball/01yanks.html (scroll down)
TOO EARLY TO TALK HALL Randy Johnson, who won four Cy Young awards in six seasons for the Diamondbacks, returned to Chase Field for the first time as a Yankee.

Johnson pitched longer for Seattle than he did for Arizona, but he had his greatest success in Phoenix and would seem likely to wear a Diamondbacks cap on his Hall of Fame plaque. Just do not float the idea to him.

"People ask me about that, and I tell them to go on to the next subject," Johnson said. "It would be premature to even think about it."

[Imapotato]

Height has nothing to do with how good a pitcher is.

Though I would love for him to wear a Mariner cap, he will go in as a Diamondback


It most certainly does

Mound height gave rise to a pitcher's era, because Pitcher's were higher up and throwing down on the hitter

So a guy like Johnson and Chris Young of the Padres who are good P's get better because they are taller...they have an advantage

[The Dude]

He is a 6'10 K pitcher

He was a 6'10 K pitcher. Over the year's he developed great control and has become more than that.


He had a few great years but other then that is 5 years, with only one 'heroic' feat a HOF career?
I'm guessing you consider his 5 great years those Cy Young years. Well, don't forget 1997. I'd consider that a great year, as I would 2004. 1993, 1994 1998, and 2005 are all very good years. So from 1993-2005, he was very good to great except for 1996 and 2003 when he was injured. Please name me a pitcher with a 12 year conistent peak like that which is not a lock in the hall of fame.

One heroic feat? World Series MVP, Two Not Hitters (one of them a perfect game), and won the last two games in a world series.


And don't quote adjusted ERA+, 11 of the last 20 great ERA+ happened in this era, so something is wrong with that stat...it's glaring

Okay. I won't quote ERA+ I guess. Lets look at 1995-2002. He placed first or second in regular ERA every year except for 1996 (injured) and 1998 (traded halfway through the season), although his 1.28 was pretty darn good in the 2nd half of 1998.
In fact, he's 4th among active pitchers in ERA. Ahead of Clemens and right behind Maddux.

[ElHalo]

It most certainly does

Mound height gave rise to a pitcher's era, because Pitcher's were higher up and throwing down on the hitter

So a guy like Johnson and Chris Young of the Padres who are good P's get better because they are taller...they have an advantage

This is true... what's the point? And Mordecai Brown had an advantage because he was able to use his mangled hand to get magical break on pitches. And Billy Wagner had an advantage because his freak of nature genes let him throw faster than his frame should have allowed. And Roger Clemens had an advantage because his genetics allowed his frame to carry a massive amount of muscle.

Nobody comes in on an even playing field. Every single pitcher in major league baseball history has gotten there because of lucky genes. Even a guy like Greg Maddux, who you think of as relying purely on skill rather than physical ability, throws faster than most any other human being can. Maddux throws, what, 70's and 80's mph? I'm a relatively big, strong guy, and I can hold my own in a weight room... but when I get in front of a radar gun, I can't crack 50 mph with a throw, no matter how much I put behind it (I usually clock in around 38-39 mph). Every single player in major league history is there because of (in addition to natural affinity, hard work and effort, etc.) luckiness in the gene pool. How can you hold that against someone just because his luckiness is more readily apparent than others'?

[digglahhh]

Potato,

How do you keep a guy with 5 Cy Youngs out?

How many pitchers would you like to see in the Hall? Johnson isn't top 20 material?

[ElHalo]

Potato,

How do you keep a guy with 5 Cy Youngs out?

How many pitchers would you like to see in the Hall? Johnson isn't top 20 material?

I think he's bothered by two things.

1. He started late, and therefore has less longevity than other pitchers... though he's making up for that by lasting longer than most.

2. His height gives him an unfair advantage. Though how this is different from other guys whose genetically determined strangth or small motor control gives them an unfair advantage, I just can't see.

[digglahhh]

Does this mean that Mugsy Bogues has a better HOF resume than Tim Duncan?

[cavalier1968]

Does this mean that Mugsy Bogues has a better HOF resume than Tim Duncan?


Not bad.........Randy may be the best pitcher Iv ever seen.......for 1 game....

I guess since Wilt the stilt was taller than most Basketball players he should be kicked off the Basketball Hof too?

CAv

[Imapotato]

Potato,

How do you keep a guy with 5 Cy Youngs out?

How many pitchers would you like to see in the Hall? Johnson isn't top 20 material?


I knew this would come up

Guys you are reading whta you want to read...I didn't say he is A def NO on HOF, and I know he WILL get in

I am just stating that if he was shorter, he wouldn't be as dominanting and that is something I think of when it comes to him

I just don't think he is a unamious selection...he had control issues for a long time, usually leading in walks and K's

Comparing him to his peers, he comes nowhere close to Maddux, Clemens, Pedro and perhaps Glavine


As for the Wilt Chamberlain comparison...I will say I think Bill Russell was better...because Wilt was just so huge that it wasn't really talent...same with Shaquille O'Neal...they just aren't as great as many think

And yes Mugsy Bogues is my man...I say he is better then alot of good players, (like Marbury) but not Tim Duncan...Tim is one of the most fundementally sound players that ever played

[ElHalo]

I am just stating that if he was shorter, he wouldn't be as dominanting and that is something I think of when it comes to him

Right; and if Clemens wasn't genetically predisposed to be gigantically strong, he wouldn't be as dominant. And if Pedro didn't have fingers that were unnaturally long (seriously, have you ever seen his hands? They're unnatural) that allowed him supernatural ball control, he wouldn't be as dominant. Why do you hold Randy's genetic luck in being tall against him, but not every other pitcher's genetic luck that allows them to be dominant against them?

[Naliamegod]

It most certainly does

Mound height gave rise to a pitcher's era, because Pitcher's were higher up and throwing down on the hitter

So a guy like Johnson and Chris Young of the Padres who are good P's get better because they are taller...they have an advantage

There are numerous players who have been tall but were terrible pitchers, and there have been short but great. Saying Randy Johnson was only great because he was 6'10 is just ridecolous. Not to mention horribly hypocritical since you can say the same thing about any big pitcher such as Roger Clemens.

[Imapotato]

I didn't say that, and if you read my post, you'll see that


I stated he was a very good pitcher, and would be no matter what his size, but his size makes him have a great advantage, moreso then having 23 fingers, or long fingers or stout body

It has already been done and the proof is in the pudding, the higher the P's size and arm slot is, the harder it is to hit