OMG! How did Chick Hafey sneak in the HOF?

[NOMAR22]

Chick Hafey's career numbers are not impressive at all. He only played 13 years. Avg.317 only 1,283 games,4,625 AB,777 runs,1,466 hits,341 2B,67 3B,164 hrs,844 RBI's.

Chick Hafey only had 4 good season and 3 100 Rbi seasons.5th best RBI total was only 67 Rbis(1934). 1 Batting Tittle, .349(1931).

How did he sneak in the HOF? Did he bribe the voters? Should MLB investigate how he sneaked in?


This opens the doors for Tony Oliva who was way better,Bernie Williams, Reggie Smith, Roy White, Ron Fairly, Toby Harrah, Dwight Evans, Ben Oglivie,
Tony Armas,Dave Kingman, Paul Blair,Dick Allen, Jimmy Wynn, Jorge Bell, Hank Bauer,Pedro Guerrero,Rico Carty,Richie Zisk,Joe Rudi,Gorman Thomas,Frank Thomas, Jeff Burroughs,Bobby Thomson,Andy Pafko ETC.

[KCGHOST]

I am glad you brought this to our attention. We'll get right on it. :rolleyes:

[RedSoxVT92]

It is ridicuous to claim that he bribed voters and for the mlb to investigate. He battled eye troubles and severe sinus problems which really held him back. In those four years his line reads like this (1928) .337/.386/.604 (1929) .338/.394/.632 (1930) .336/.407/.652 (1931) .349/.404/.569. Also winnining 2 WS while participating in 4. He is a very borderline canidate maybe not belonging in the HOF but to say he bribed them is very disrespectfull and extreme.

[Brad Harris]

It is ridicuous to claim that he bribed voters and for the mlb to investigate. He battled eye troubles and severe sinus problems which really held him back. In those four years his line reads like this (1928) .337/.386/.604 (1929) .338/.394/.632 (1930) .336/.407/.652 (1931) .349/.404/.569. Also winnining 2 WS while participating in 4. He is a very borderline canidate maybe not belonging in the HOF but to say he bribed them is very disrespectfull and extreme.

Unless, of course, we're talking about the Frisch selections.

[538280]

Chick Hafey isn't as good a player as Rico Carty. He's nowhere near a HOF outfielder, he got in because of Frankie Frisch.

RedSoxVT92, Hafey himself didn't bribe the voters but his former ballplaying friends got him in, along with a number of others who don't have credentials any better than Hafey.

[hellborn]

Unless, of course, we're talking about the Frisch selections.
This beat me to the punch...a quick review of "Politics of Glory" would be in order for those who are really interested in how Hafey made it into the HOF.

[Freakshow]

I am glad you brought this to our attention. We'll get right on it. :rolleyes:
Amen, Brothuh KC!:clapping

Ya'll need to check out the Hall of Mistakes threads, NOMAR; Hafey was elected the 11th worst of the 225 players in the Coop.:lookitup

[Imapotato]

Ughhh

The man was legally blind and put up those numbers, and he was screwed by the evil cheapskate Branch Rickey as well

His career ended when night games came into play, because he just couldn't see at all at night

Go give Alex Rodriguez cataracts and see if he can get the numbers Hafey did

Sometimes if you look at just numbers, you will miss stories like a Hafey, Sam Rice, Maranville, Lefty Gomez and Dizzy Dean

It is the Hall of FAME, and Hafey was applauded for his play because of his handicap

Freom Baseball Library

One of the hardest-hitting righthanded batters in the game, Hafey had his best years with the Cardinals. It is difficult to assess how great Hafey might have been if not for his ill health, poor eyesight, and constant salary disputes. Hafey had a chronic sinus condition that required several operations and affected his vision. After beanings in 1926, a doctor advised him to wear glasses, and since his eyesight would vary from day to day, he used three different pairs. He became one of the first bespectacled outfielders.


Hafey was known for his rifle arm and his line drives. He started as a pitcher, but switched to everyday play under Branch Rickey. He was regarded by many as the second-best righthanded hitter of his day, behind Rogers Hornsby. A quiet man, he was somewhat overshadowed by the more colorful individuals who played on the Cardinals' championship teams of the 1920s and early 1930s.

In 1929 Hafey tied a National League record with ten successive hits. After batting .336 in 1930, he held out for $15,000, reporting ten days late to spring training. He eventually signed for $12,500, but Rickey fined him $2,100 for not being in playing shape. Hafey responded by winning the 1931 batting title with a .349 mark. He then demanded $17,000 for 1932, including a return of the $2,100. Rickey offered him $13,000, a raise of just $500. Incensed, Hafey drove home to California and waited until April 11, when he found out he had been traded to the Reds for Bennie Frey, Harvey Hendrick, and $50,000; Rickey had Joe Medwick waiting in the wings.

Hafey was happy to join the Reds, who paid him $15,000, though they were a last-place club. Battling the flu and his sinus condition, Hafey played just 84 games, but hit .344. In 1933 he hit .303, making the first All-Star team (and getting the first hit in All-Star history, a single in the second inning), but his health was not good. His last campaign as an everyday player was 1934. He hurt his shoulder in 1935, but on May 24, played in the first-ever regular season night game. The evening's dampness aggravated his sinuses. He saw the future of night baseball, and realized his career was ending. He retired, sitting out the rest of 1935 and all of 1936, but attempted a comeback in '37, playing in 89 games. He then quit for good, at the age of 34. He was elected to the Hall of Fame 34 years later by the Veterans Committee.

[NOMAR22]

Chick Hafey isn't as good a player as Rico Carty. He's nowhere near a HOF outfielder, he got in because of Frankie Frisch.

RedSoxVT92, Hafey himself didn't bribe the voters but his former ballplaying friends got him in, along with a number of others who don't have credentials any better than Hafey.


So i was close enough. He certainly doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. And yes Rico Carty was better.

[538280]

Ughhh

The man was legally blind and put up those numbers, and he was screwed by the evil cheapskate Branch Rickey as well

His career ended when night games came into play, because he just couldn't see at all at night

Go give Alex Rodriguez cataracts and see if he can get the numbers Hafey did

Sometimes if you look at just numbers, you will miss stories like a Hafey, Sam Rice, Maranville, Lefty Gomez and Dizzy Dean

It is the Hall of FAME, and Hafey was applauded for his play because of his handicap


I'll ask you again, Potato. Does Jim Abbott belong in the HOF? He was almost as good a pitcher as Hafey was a player, and he, like Hafey, was famous for his disability and was applauded for playing well without a hand. .

Hafey was a very good player, it is a nice story that he was able to play well despite his horrible eyesight. But, he's nowhere near the HOF. The HOF is for the best players of all time, Hafey wasn't one of them.

It is impressive he was able to post the numbers he did close to blind, but it doens't make him any better a player. What if Mark McGwire was five foot seven? He probably wouldn't have made the majors. A player is born the way he's born. We don't move players up in ratings for getting the most out of their ability.

[ElHalo]

I'll ask you again, Potato. Does Jim Abbott belong in the HOF? He was almost as good a pitcher as Hafey was a player, and he, like Hafey, was famous for his disability and was applauded for playing well without a hand. .

Hafey was a very good player, it is a nice story that he was able to play well despite his horrible eyesight. But, he's nowhere near the HOF. The HOF is for the best players of all time, Hafey wasn't one of them.

It is impressive he was able to post the numbers he did close to blind, but it doens't make him any better a player. What if Mark McGwire was five foot seven? He probably wouldn't have made the majors. A player is born the way he's born. We don't move players up in ratings for getting the most out of their ability.

About McGwire at 5-7: Have you ever seen a picture of Hack Wilson?

And as to Abbot... as it is, I don't think Abbot would be an atrocity as a Hall of Famer, though I certainly wouldn't vote for him. But if Abbot was as good a pitcher as Hafey was a position player, I'd definitely go for him. But he wasn't even close.

Abbot had a couple of great years, but he never finished higher than 4th in ERA, never made an all star game, and was never really one of the best pitchers in the league.

Hafey won a batting title over the likes of Terry, Klein, O'Doul, and Hornsby; hit .337, .338, .336, .349 in consecutive seasons; finished in the top 5 in OPS four times; finished in the top 10 in homers six times; had a rifle arm... look at his OPS+'s from 27-31. At his peak, he was just as good a player as your boy Dave Parker... sure, he didn't have the longevity, but then again, Parker wasn't blind.

[iPod]

I'll ask you again, Potato. Does Jim Abbott belong in the HOF? He was almost as good a pitcher as Hafey was a player, and he, like Hafey, was famous for his disability and was applauded for playing well without a hand. .

Hafey was a very good player, it is a nice story that he was able to play well despite his horrible eyesight. But, he's nowhere near the HOF. The HOF is for the best players of all time, Hafey wasn't one of them.

It is impressive he was able to post the numbers he did close to blind, but it doens't make him any better a player. What if Mark McGwire was five foot seven? He probably wouldn't have made the majors. A player is born the way he's born. We don't move players up in ratings for getting the most out of their ability.

That's one way of looking at it, and I would tend to say I agree with you. But it's not like you've had a history of saying that people should only go into the Hall on overall value. You've said many times that Mazeroski deserves a Hall spot; not because he had HoF caliber value, but because he was the best fielding second basemen ever and that fact alone justifies a bid. The fact that Hafey managed to become an all-star caliber player with vision that poor is, in my opinion, a great, great deal more impressive than say, Paul Molitor's career. Like I said, I probably agree that it should be about value. The Cardinals never got a bonus in the standings because Hafey was virtually blind, so from a straight point of view, it shouldn't really be relevant. But, I think it'd be pretty easy to argue Hafey got more out of what his body gave him than anyone else in baseball history, and I consider that more or less as Hall worthy as being the best fielder in history at a crucial position, or whatever.

[538280]

Hafey won a batting title over the likes of Terry, Klein, O'Doul, and Hornsby; hit .337, .338, .336, .349 in consecutive seasons; finished in the top 5 in OPS four times; finished in the top 10 in homers six times; had a rifle arm... look at his OPS+'s from 27-31. At his peak, he was just as good a player as your boy Dave Parker... sure, he didn't have the longevity, but then again, Parker wasn't blind.

No, EH, he wasn't half as good as Parker. Don't need to look past some very basic things here. Hafey had a good arm, but horrible range, not a good fielder overall. Parker was fast, had good range, a cannon arm, and altogether subperb defensive outfielder for a few years. And he was fast, hit for good contact (2 batting titles), good power (Over 30 HRs three times, two slugging titles).

Parker is 27th all time in MVP shares (which really mostly is a peak measurement), Hafey is 398th. Parker has 26 Black Ink, Hafey has 7.

By Win Shares, Hafey's best three years are 25, 25, and 23. Parker's are 37, 33, and 31. Parker had five years at or equal to the level of Hafey's best season. Even if you don't care for WS, how can you reject such overwhelming evidence?

BTW, you didn't get back to me on the other thread where I mentioned Rico Carty. Look at their career records closely and it's really hard to see why Hafey's better. I'm sorry, even if he was blind it doesn't make a guy worse than Rico Carty a HOFer.

[538280]

You've said many times that Mazeroski deserves a Hall spot; not because he had HoF caliber value, but because he was the best fielding second basemen ever and that fact alone justifies a bid.

Just to clarify, I didn't necessarily say that, I said because he has better defensive statistics than any player, any position (with the only possible exception being Ozzie Smith), he deserves a bid.

[runningshoes]

How did he sneak in the HOF? Did he bribe the voters? Should MLB investigate how he sneaked in?

BBF should launch an investigation into how you snuck in.

[leecemark]

--Frankly the idea that Hafey was up there at the plate swinging at a blur doesn't make any sense to me. Nobody could possible be an effective hitter that way. It is my understanding that Hafey's vison was not a stable condition. Most of the time it was correctable and he was able to play. He had occasional blurred vison and did not play when that occured. Just a quick look at his record will show that he missed alot of games.
--He sat out the 7th game of the World Series coming off a year when he had one of his best seasons. Although I don't know for certain it was a vison issue, that would seem to make sense (more than the "he was a great hitter even though he was blind" theory). If he sat out in that situation it is a pretty good indication he always sat when the problem flared up.

[Captain Cold Nose]

So i was close enough. He certainly doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. And yes Rico Carty was better.
Didn't you say in the Guidry thread you really can't judge a player unless you saw them? So, I'm assuming you saw Chick Hafey play.

[dgarza]

About McGwire at 5-7: Have you ever seen a picture of Hack Wilson?
It's my understanding that Mel Ott was no giant either. No seriously...

[dgarza]

And as to Abbot... as it is, I don't think Abbot would be an atrocity as a Hall of Famer, though I certainly wouldn't vote for him. But if Abbot was as good a pitcher as Hafey was a position player, I'd definitely go for him. But he wasn't even close.

I'm surprised about your HOF comment. But I agree that if Abbott was comparable to Hafey then he wouldn't have a 100 ERA+ and a .446 %

[Imapotato]

I'll ask you again, Potato. Does Jim Abbott belong in the HOF? He was almost as good a pitcher as Hafey was a player, and he, like Hafey, was famous for his disability and was applauded for playing well without a hand. .

Hafey was a very good player, it is a nice story that he was able to play well despite his horrible eyesight. But, he's nowhere near the HOF. The HOF is for the best players of all time, Hafey wasn't one of them.

It is impressive he was able to post the numbers he did close to blind, but it doens't make him any better a player. What if Mark McGwire was five foot seven? He probably wouldn't have made the majors. A player is born the way he's born. We don't move players up in ratings for getting the most out of their ability.

Not the same AT ALL, use common sense and you will find out why

[ESPNFan]

BBF should launch an investigation into how you snuck in.

:laugh classic.

[ElHalo]

--Frankly the idea that Hafey was up there at the plate swinging at a blur doesn't make any sense to me. Nobody could possible be an effective hitter that way. It is my understanding that Hafey's vison was not a stable condition. Most of the time it was correctable and he was able to play. He had occasional blurred vison and did not play when that occured. Just a quick look at his record will show that he missed alot of games.
--He sat out the 7th game of the World Series coming off a year when he had one of his best seasons. Although I don't know for certain it was a vison issue, that would seem to make sense (more than the "he was a great hitter even though he was blind" theory). If he sat out in that situation it is a pretty good indication he always sat when the problem flared up.

I think you're wrong here, Mark. Maybe I'll elaborate a little bit.

I'm sure, as with most people, that my personal bias gets in the way sometimes. I know it does with Hafey. I have a similar condition to Hafey, but only in one eye. Maybe 20% of the time, my vision is perfect... well, it's poor, but perfectly correctable with contact lenses. 60% of the time or so, it's impaired, where my left eye can't focus as well as my right eye, and so I end up with slight double vision and blurriness due to the conflicting reports coming in from each of my eyes. The other 20% of the time, it's so bad that I literally have to close my left eye fully to just engage in regular daily tasks like reading a computer screen or driving. Let me tell you, driving back from Rhode Island last night after 25 straight hours of wakefulness, when my left eye was blinking in and out of usefulness and I was repeatedly losing and then gaining and then losing again my depth perception, following someone in pitch blackness and rain through back streets I'd never been within miles of through areas I'd never heard of before, was lovely.

Point being, as somebody with a variable problem like that... sometimes it's bad to the point where I can't function with it no matter how hard I try, sometimes it's perfectly ok, but the vast majority of the time it's just a problem I have to deal with. I'm sure Hafey had the same problem. Once in a blue moon, it didn't affect him much; from time to time, it was so bad that he couldn't even make the effort; but the vast majority of the time, it was just a problem that he was dealing with. I admire the hell out of him for it.

[hellborn]

...........
In 1929 Hafey tied a National League record with ten successive hits. After batting .336 in 1930, he held out for $15,000, reporting ten days late to spring training. He eventually signed for $12,500, but Rickey fined him $2,100 for not being in playing shape.
........
Well, Showboat Fisher hit .374 in halftime play for the Cards in 1930, so why give Hafey a big raise?
A lot of guys were hitting the cover off the ball in Hafey's top years...his numbers are still impressive, and you've gotta feel for the guy's health problems. But, there are 1,000 guys who could have had amazing careers if not for some bad break or another. And, there are plenty of hitters from the 20s and 30s with gaudy numbers who have been stuffed into the HOF, Hafey is just another one from that bunch who is pretty questionable.

[Erik Bedard]

Not the same AT ALL, use common sense and you will find out why

For once, I agree with you. I had some severe doubts about Hafey as a HOFer until I found out he was legally blind. Do you have any idea how hard it is to hit when you need glasses, but you lost them or have a missing contact? Take that and multiply it times 10 and you'll get what Hafey did.

[Imapotato]

for once?

LOL, obviously I have distinct fans of my opinions..

[Fuzzy Bear]

Hafey is NOT a deserving HOFer; he only has four years of part time play. Hafey being in the Hall is a catalyst for those misinformed people who advocate for Riggs Stephenson, another guy with only 4 years of full time play. Stephenson has a higher BA and OBP, too.

There were several reasons that the Frankie Frisch cabal on the VC was able to pack the HOF with Frisch's 20s Giants and Gashouse Gang Cardinal cronies::

(A) Most of the players selected by the Frisch cabal had high career batting averages. We know now that this isn't the big deal they made it out to be, but Hafey was elected to the HOF two years after the AL came close to having a batting champion under .300, with the AL COLLECTIVELY hitting .230 (in 1968).

(B) In the middle of the Frisch cabal choices was baseball's centennial in 1969. This made for a lot of nostalgia, and a disproportionate amount of this nostalgia was spent on baseball's colorful teams. The old New York Giants and the Gashouse Gang Cardinals were beneficiaries of this.

(C) Sabermetrics had not been born yet, not really. There was little discussion about putting statistics in historical context. The discussion in 1969 was "Where have all the hitters gone?", not really focusing on the abnormal conditions of the 1960s game that radically favored the pitcher.

Sabermetrics have made it so that a future cabal would not be able to ram through what Frisch rammed through.

[oscargamblesfro]

Was Hafey really any better than some rather similar guys from his era who aren't in, and shouldn't be- such as, say, Ken Williams or Babe Herman?... or, peak wise, I know he had a short career, Lefty O'Doul? Or was he worse than those three? Any ideas?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Was Hafey really any better than some rather similar guys from his era who aren't in, and shouldn't be- such as, say, Ken Williams or Babe Herman?... or, peak wise, I know he had a short career, Lefty O'Doul? Or was he worse than those three? Any ideas?

I would rate Herman and Williams ahead of Hafey; their careers had more substance.

I would rate O'Doul ahead of Hafey, based on his contribution to baseball, and his longer career.

If O'Doul had been a Frisch crony with the Giants, he would have gotten in during the Frisch years. He died while Frisch ran the VC; that would have been a bigger plus.