Your position on Steroids, and have you been to the HOF??

[StanTheMan]

Lots of opinions lately on the HOF issue, and specifically Bonds and the other Balco players, and of couse weh ave all read the widely varied opinions as to whether or not these guys are HOF'ers or not.

I am curious how many of those who would vote Barry, Palmiero, McGwire, Sosa et all into HOF have actually been to Cooperstown?

I for one was finally able to definitively form my opinion on the issue, but not until I stood amongst all the plaques with my father and my son.

So.... where do you come out on the issue? Is he a HOF'er? More importantly (maybe) Have you been to the HOF? I am curious if it makes a difference in your opinion. I think it might.

I for one, have been to the HOF, and with the information that I currently have, Barry Bonds is definitely NOT a Hall of Famer in my opinion.

Curious about everyone else's answer to these two questions... Is he a HOF'er? Have you been to the HOF?

[SamtheBravesFan]

1. I don't give a crap about steroids

2. Yes, I have been to the Hall of Fame, it's sweet :D

[DoubleX]

What does actually having been to Cooperstown have to do with this? I finally made the long-awaited trek to Cooperstown last September, and I was underwhelmed (then again, I had probably over-built it in my head over the years).

[chrismarullo]

1. I think a positive test for PED, an admission of PED use or the discovery of PED use should mean an automatic ban from the HOF regardless of when the discovery happens (hear that Mark?)

2. I've been twice but I don't think it changes my opinion.

[538280]

1.Barry Bonds can do whatever he wants to get an edge on the competition. If he wants to take steroids, I don't endorse that certainly and don't like the fact he's taking them, but it makes little to no impression on my thoughts of him as a HOFer.

2.I have been to the HOF, but I too don't understand how that is relevant to this steroids issue.

[Gino Guacamoolie]

1.) I don't care about " cheating ". As an athlete myself, I know that it's very common to try and get an edge over the competition. The only type of " cheating " that should warrant a lifetime ban from the HOF is throwing away games.

2.) I've never been to the HOF, though I hope to go one day.

[Bench 5]

1) I think that steroid use should be taken into consideration when electing players to the Hall of Fame. The difference between Raffy Palmeiro and Mark Grace is that one used steroids and one didn't. Had they both been on a level playing field they would put up similar numbers. So why should I reward someone who joined the Tiny Testicle club just to gain an edge?

2) Yes I have been to the Baseball Hall of Fame and it is awesome. Cooperstown is a beautiful little town so it's a nice place to visit. Definitely nicer than the basketball and football HOF.

[digglahhh]

I've been to the HOF several times, I know that I will make more trips in my life and I know that one of those trips will include my first glance at the Bonds plaque. It doesn't bother me at all.

I wouldn't vote for the other three, whether or not I have been or intend to return to Cooperstown.

[Brad Harris]

1. Steroids are morally wrong and I admire those players who chose not to use them for showing good character. That said, if a player becomes eligible for the Hall of Fame and is known/thought to use steroids, his case will receive some demerits for the "character, integrity, and sportsmanship" clause and his performance will have to be re-evaluated, but I don't see that changing my vote to a "no" unless it's already a borderline case.

2. I spent my sixteenth birthday at the Hall of Fame. It was a moving experience. However, it has absolutely no bearing on what I think constitutes a Hall-of-Famer. Nor should it.

[Lindseynelson]

Steroids-----While they were still legal from MLBs point of view how can you knock a player for trying to get all the edge he could?Let's not forget that guys from another era were doing everything they could to get an edge as well. Mickey Mantle had to drop out of the M&M boys race vs Ruth when Mel Allens Dr gave him an "energy" shot that led to infection and closed Mickey down for the season. Teams were driving guys to bounce back from injury over the years and if they didn't they were considered less then a gamer. Owners, Selig included were chasing the buck and home runs and wins built the ballparks and bank accounts. That said I would have had a lot of respect for McGwire and Bonds if they had just told America " Yep, I used them, they were not banned and I wanted to do everything I could to help my team and myself excel." It's the guys like Raffy who still used them after the ban and spotlight that get me.I hope baseball stays roid free because baseball is a lithe, agile game and it needs to return to it.
PS Several Steeler linemen from the great 70's teams are dead from Roid abuse .Do we take the Steeler records down?
HOF. Went there twice.First time as a wide eyed 10 year old in 69 and the next time to see REJAX get in. Magnificent place , what a setting. Heaven on Earth!

[Captain Cold Nose]

1. Steroid use needs to be considered, but within the guidelines of how baseball treats them. It's just the latest form of gaining an edge, usage is probably more widespread than Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire and Sosa, they only seem to have benefitted on the field the most. Without the reigns in, they can't be faulted entirely.
2. Been to the HOF twice, likely going again this year. It's a museum. A nice one, but still a museum. I hate to sound like a cliche, but so many of the players enshrined benefitted from "advantages" chemical or otherwise. This can't be a pick and choose your poison.

[chrismarullo]

This argument that it was okay for guys to use steroids simply because MLB was too stupid to ban them has no merit because steroids were ILLEGAL. These guys were going beyond the rules of the game and breaking the law. Does MLB have to put the penal code of every major league city in the rule book? How about federal laws, state laws or local deed restrictions? Not only were these guys blatant cheaters, they were criminal scum.

[StanTheMan]

Interesting.....

I had not truly formed my opinion on who should be in and who should not be in, but then I went to the HOF in 2005. It was a terrific experience, and the HOF is a magical place. I could not help but stand amongst the HOF plaques, and wonder about the millions of fathers, sons etc. (I was there with my Dad, and my son) who had been there before me, and who would come after.

Regardless if you think a racist should be enshrined, or a gambler on games, or a Steroid user, to me, standing amongst the HOF plaques made up my mind. The current crop of voters should not vote in players with substantial suspicion of steroid use. Period. Hundreds of Thousands of players have played MLB ball, what, 300 are in the HOF? It is a terribly exclusive club, and the HOF does not need "beyond a reasonable doubt." It is not a court of law.

Voters in the past made mistakes, some of them would have voted differently now, had they known then certain information. Although that is unfortunate, it does not, IMO, make Bonds a HOF'er. Or McGwire, and certainly not Palmeiro, who actually failed a test. A plaque for these three lessens the HOF, IMO.

I can only hope that the current voters make the right decision in my book.

Perhaps the timing of my visit had something to do with my strong feelings.... I am surprised how many of you who have been there (and enjoyed it to varying degrees) would not have a problem with a Steroid user being voted in, with the information we currently have....


Shoeless Joe was a HOF'er before he did what he did too. Rose was a HOF'er before he did what he did.... They are "ineligible" but just because Bonds and McGwire were HOF'er before they did what they did.... sorry. They can buy a ticket.

Bryan in Indy.

[RedSoxVT92]

I believe that people who used steroids should not be in the hall of fame. They didnt earn those stats, they took a drug that enabled them to get those numbers. But it is tough to know who exactly took them and who didnt. People who cheated to get HOF numbers should not be on the same level of people who acheived greatness with their god given talent

Ive never been to cooperstown, hopefully ill be able to go there soon.

[Brad Harris]

Bryan,

While I respect your right to hold a very different opinion than my own regarding steroid use and its desired effect on Hall of Fame merit, the fact that you apparently couldn't make up your mind about the issue until you had implanted yourself in the passion of the moment betrays your lack of decision-making ability. Dale Petrovsky and Jane Clark Forbes just love people like you. Makes me so sick I just wanna wipe my butt with my Ozzie Smith rookie card and watch it do "backflips" into the stool.

I suppose you shouldn't vote for president in 2008 until you get to personally shake the hand of one of the candidates. Go home and have another cry watching Beaches again. Your brand of "good vibrations" has no place in the real world. Ballplayers are human. They make mistakes. What the Hall of Fame honors are the great players of the past. Your kind of legalism is neither practical nor warranted.

I only hope you aren't judged by the same standards that you judge others by. Puh-lease..take your heart off your sleeve and grow up.

[Captain Cold Nose]

This argument that it was okay for guys to use steroids simply because MLB was too stupid to ban them has no merit because steroids were ILLEGAL. These guys were going beyond the rules of the game and breaking the law. Does MLB have to put the penal code of every major league city in the rule book? How about federal laws, state laws or local deed restrictions? Not only were these guys blatant cheaters, they were criminal scum.
Criminal scum? The players weren't knocking off grocery stores or stealing from pension funds or burning down buildings for insurance money. Have a little perspective. The one thing I don't get is why so many seem to be taking this so personally. Are people's lives that mundane that this is what brings out so much outrage?

[Brad Harris]

Are people's lives that mundane that this is what brings out so much outrage?

Apparently.

What really kills me is that many of the media and fans in the anti-steroid lynch mob were leading the pack during 1998 when crowds were cheering all the home runs flying out of major league ballparks.

There was a decided turn of events around the time that Barry Bonds surpassed "nice guys" McGwire and Sosa on the single season chart. More of this has to do with the baseball media's hatred of Bonds - with or without steroids - than it does with righteous indignation over "cheating."

[Lindseynelson]

I really don't understand why people could care less about the 70's and 80's NFL use and yet are crazed about baseball. How many yards did Franco or John Riggins gain because the lineman of their teams were juiced and could physically move their opponent from brute strength? In baseball ,juiced or not ,you still have to hit a 90 mile an hour round object with another round object squarely.The lineman in Jim Browns and Donny Andersens day were 250 lb guys who would not stand out in a crowd.10 years later they were 280 lbs with 5% body fat benching 450 lbs. I praise the NFL for cleaning up its house and want baseball to do the same but wow relax folks.

[vasprtsfn]

With this probe upcoming of Barry Bonds, if it is discovered that he is a steroid user, he is not a HOF. If Pete Rose will be kept out of Cooperstown for cheating the game by gambling, Barry Bonds should be kept out of Cooperstown for cheating the game by using steroids.

[Brad Harris]

The NFL point is a good one. I've also noticed that many NFL fans aren't still holding a grudge against the players for their 1987 strike, but I know former baseball fans who are still holding out until the 1981 and 1994-95 players are pushing up daisies.

So far as MLB's investigation is concerned, it's best - naturally - to take a wait and see approach. Too bad MLB can't investigate what managers, GMs and owners new and when they knew it? How many here believe that Bud Selig, for example, is at least somewhat culpable for the steroid culture that flourished under his reign?

[StanTheMan]

Bryan,

While I respect your right to hold a very different opinion than my own regarding steroid use and its desired effect on Hall of Fame merit, the fact that you apparently couldn't make up your mind about the issue until you had implanted yourself in the passion of the moment betrays your lack of decision-making ability.

It's a good thing the world does not make up its collective minds about issues within first three seconds thinking about said topic, as you apparently encourage people to do....... Has anyone in America ever changed their opinion after THINKING about the issue, researching, exploring, or VISITING the very cathedral which represents the entire ideal behind the sport? Do you think I walked in to the HOF and asked "OK, what the heck are steroids anyway.... I have never heard about them!!" My goodness........ Were you dead set on your position on, say, the War in Iraq, the moment the first fighter jet entered Iraqi airspace? Heck, some people still don't know what to do with the Bonds situation. Perhaps they are WAITING FOR MORE INFORMATION!!! I have all I need however. I hope these types if "indecisive" individuals don't live in your neighborhood, because they will never get invited to one of your backyard barbeques... BTW, please publish the menu for the next 14,000 meals you will eat. One can't wait until tomorrow to decide things that one can decide today, can they!!!!!



I suppose you shouldn't vote for president in 2008 until you get to personally shake the hand of one of the candidates. Apparently you will decide after you read the very first article, no the very first SENTENCE in the very first article on the candidates. Don't forget to turn the debates off after the first question. He11, send you vote in now... what are you waiting for?

Go home and have another cry watching Beaches again. Your brand of "good vibrations" has no place in the real world. Ballplayers are human. They make mistakes. What the Hall of Fame honors are the great players of the past. Your kind of legalism is neither practical nor warranted.

If EVERY other poster said that Bonds is a bonafide HOF'er, perhaps you would be correct. Apparently, there are others who agree with my brand of "legalism." I do know one thing about my thougts on the "legality" of steroids. The ones Barry Bonds took were illegal on every square inch of soil in this great country.... sorry, in this "average" -- don't want to get all "good vibrations" on you!!

I only hope you aren't judged by the same standards that you judge others by. Puh-lease..take your heart off your sleeve and grow up.

Ummmmm... yeah. Did you have a bad day or something? Perhaps I have a romatic view of baseball.... fair enough to say, I suppose. If the alternative is celebrating Ben Johnson's gold medal (I bet people like you had a poster on your wall for years after his disgrace) or Diego Maradona's being kicked out of the World Cup with no less than FIVE types of Ephedra in his system, or wearing your East German Womens Swimming Team Rocks T-Shirt to all the parties you go to is your idea of sport... go for it. I want the game that my children grow up watching to be as clean as possible (something that none of us posting here can say we grew up watching). If that is something you don't agree with, then fine... as you say, we each have our opinion.

Gotta Go..... Angels in the Outfield is on TBS again. :laugh

[Taco De Muerte]

1.) Don't really care about steroids. It's just one of the many ways to get an edge over your opponents. The outcry over this " scandal " will eventually blow over.

2.) Never been to the HOF.

[StanTheMan]

[QUOTE=Chancellor]
So far as MLB's investigation is concerned, it's best - naturally - to take a wait and see approach. [QUOTE]

the fact that you apparently can't make up your mind about the issue betrays your lack of decision-making ability. Dale Petrovsky and Jane Clark Forbes just love people like you. Makes me so sick I just wanna wipe my butt with my Karl Marx rookie card.

So I cannot change my mind, decide once and for all, or make any type of decision using any portion of the HOF experience... but you want to go ahead and take a "wait and see approach?" Sounds like apples to apples to me, but I have enough info to decide in my mind if Bonds is a HOF or not.

You don't. apparently. Congratulations!!:clapping

[runningshoes]

I despise them and I've been there twice.

[chrismarullo]

Apparently.

What really kills me is that many of the media and fans in the anti-steroid lynch mob were leading the pack during 1998 when crowds were cheering all the home runs flying out of major league ballparks.

There was a decided turn of events around the time that Barry Bonds surpassed "nice guys" McGwire and Sosa on the single season chart. More of this has to do with the baseball media's hatred of Bonds - with or without steroids - than it does with righteous indignation over "cheating."


I was 16 in 1998 and pretty niave about what was going on as far as cheating and drugs-as was most of the country apparantly.

I couldn't care less if it was a nice cuddly guy like McGwire, a jerk like Bonds or Jesus H. Christ. If they cheated and certainly if they broke the law in order to cheat then they have no buisness in the Hall of Fame.

Are only saints allowed in the Hall? Certainly not. Are there cheaters in the Hall? More than likey.

But if MLB has a chance, right here, right now to prevent at least 1 more cheater to gaining entry into Cooperstown, then I think they should do whatever it takes to do it.

[runningshoes]

1.Barry Bonds can do whatever he wants to get an edge on the competition. If he wants to take steroids, I don't endorse that certainly and don't like the fact he's taking them, but it makes little to no impression on my thoughts of him as a HOFer.

2.I have been to the HOF, but I too don't understand how that is relevant to this steroids issue..

My guess is he's wondering whether walking those hallowed has really made you think the steroid users don't belong among the greats there.

It's about the emotion.

[StanTheMan]

My guess is he's wondering whether walking those hallowed has really made you think the steroid users don't belong among the greats there.

It's about the emotion.

Exactly. :clapping

[vasprtsfn]

Some of the HOFers have been outspoken in saying that they want their plaques taken down if Pete Rose is ever elected. I wonder if they would feel the same way if a steroids user is ever elected.

[cavalier1968]

look below

[cavalier1968]

Bryan,

While I respect your right to hold a very different opinion than my own regarding steroid use and its desired effect on Hall of Fame merit, the fact that you apparently couldn't make up your mind about the issue until you had implanted yourself in the passion of the moment betrays your lack of decision-making ability. Dale Petrovsky and Jane Clark Forbes just love people like you. Makes me so sick I just wanna wipe my butt with my Ozzie Smith rookie card and watch it do "backflips" into the stool.

I suppose you shouldn't vote for president in 2008 until you get to personally
shake the hand of one of the candidates. Go home and have another cry watching Beaches again. Your brand of "good vibrations" has no place in the real world. Ballplayers are human. They make mistakes. What the Hall of Fame honors are the great players of the past. Your kind of legalism is neither practical nor warranted.

I only hope you aren't judged by the same standards that you judge others by. Puh-lease..take your heart off your sleeve and grow up.


SNR: Sosa was hitting 60 home runs year after year, and now he can't even get into the major leagues. Are you surprised by that?

Grace: There's a lot of guys that are not playing anymore, that are not even good players anymore, ever since they started testing for steroids. Welcome to the level playing field. I think it's great.


SNR: Does Sammy Sosa get Mark Grace's vote?
Grace: No. In a word, no.

[Lindseynelson]

Grace didn't mind seeing all those fat pitches with Sosa behind him though. Sosa also hit 300 plus for those 5 years he averaged 60 dingers and drove in about 130 per . I guess Mark must have gone to a pshrink and had him bring up repressed memories for him to know and say so much now.

[Brownie31]

No to Bonds or any others from the steroids crowd in the Hall of Fame. Like Pete Rose and the Black Sox, their actions reflect on the game itself.

I have never been to Cooperstown, but would love to go.

Brownie31

[Lindseynelson]

I will never understand why Pete Rose the player is kept out. He was all about winning every time he took the field. Not sure? Ask Ray Fosse.Joe Jackson and his seven cohorts took cash to tank games they were playing in.The lines between Pete the player and Pete the mgr who bet on baseball have become too blurred. What Pete the so so mgr who bet on baseball never understood was that the days he didn't bet on the Reds it was the same as betting against them in the bookies eyes.
Pete Rose is a HOF player and the irony is that by keeping him out MLB has probably made him millions each and every year.Nothing Pete likes more than a fast buck.

[Captain Cold Nose]

I will never understand why Pete Rose the player is kept out. He was all about winning every time he took the field. Not sure? Ask Ray Fosse.Joe Jackson and his seven cohorts took cash to tank games they were playing in.The lines between Pete the player and Pete the mgr who bet on baseball have become too blurred. What Pete the so so mgr who bet on baseball never understood was that the days he didn't bet on the Reds it was the same as betting against them in the bookies eyes.
Pete Rose is a HOF player and the irony is that by keeping him out MLB has probably made him millions each and every year.Nothing Pete likes more than a fast buck.
If you can believe the Sokolove book, Pete Rose's gambling did not begin as a manager. I really would not be shocked if that were true.

[StanTheMan]

I will never understand why Pete Rose the player is kept out. He was all about winning every time he took the field. Not sure? Ask Ray Fosse.Joe Jackson and his seven cohorts took cash to tank games they were playing in.The lines between Pete the player and Pete the mgr who bet on baseball have become too blurred. What Pete the so so mgr who bet on baseball never understood was that the days he didn't bet on the Reds it was the same as betting against them in the bookies eyes.
Pete Rose is a HOF player and the irony is that by keeping him out MLB has probably made him millions each and every year.Nothing Pete likes more than a fast buck.

This is just silly.... Why is he kept out??

You have obviously never been in a Major or Minor League Clubhouse. The rule is posted on the wall. He11, it is posted in the UMPIRE ROOM at the AAA ballpark I frequent in Indianapolis. This is not a small sign, either. It is as big as a poster haning on a kids wall, about 3 feet by 2 feet. It CLEARLY states "Don't bet on games.... you will be kicked out of baseball if you do so." Pete Rose walked by that sign TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES as a player and a manager. He is now banished, and actually SIGNED the document banning him, and is therefore NOT ELIGIBLE for the HOF. Nor should he be. How is this hard to understand??

He was all about winning? Ask Ray Fosse?

Are you kidding? 99% of the guys in the big leages are "all about winning." If there is EVER another player who collides with the catcher... will you place them among the "winners?" :crazy It's like you think Pete is the only one to run over a catcher, all-star game or not. Watch a guy like Scott Rolen break up a double play at second base when the Cards have a 5 run lead.... isnt' this the same type of action? Watch the great hitters of the game bearing down during an at bat when their team is up big or down big and the game is essentially over. Something like this happens EVERY DAY in the big leagues.

The Lines between player and manager have become blurred
I don't think so... it was the same guy, Pete Rose right???? This is like saying that Barry Bonds pre-steroids is a different situation than Barry Bonds post steroids. Pete on the day BEFORE he placed his first bet on baseball, (whever that was) and Pete after he placed his very first bet on baseball is the SAME PERSON, and should be treated as such. Shoeless Joe was a HOF'er before he disgraced himself.... so what?

Pete Rose can make all the millions he wants...... but he should not be in the HOF

[Lindseynelson]

This is just silly.... Why is he kept out??

You have obviously never been in a Major or Minor League Clubhouse. The rule is posted on the wall. He11, it is posted in the UMPIRE ROOM at the AAA ballpark I frequent in Indianapolis. This is not a small sign, either. It is as big as a poster haning on a kids wall, about 3 feet by 2 feet. It CLEARLY states "Don't bet on games.... you will be kicked out of baseball if you do so." Pete Rose walked by that sign TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES as a player and a manager. He is now banished, and actually SIGNED the document banning him, and is therefore NOT ELIGIBLE for the HOF. Nor should he be. How is this hard to understand??

He was all about winning? Ask Ray Fosse?

Are you kidding? 99% of the guys in the big leages are "all about winning." If there is EVER another player who collides with the catcher... will you place them among the "winners?" :crazy It's like you think Pete is the only one to run over a catcher, all-star game or not. Watch a guy like Scott Rolen break up a double play at second base when the Cards have a 5 run lead.... isnt' this the same type of action? Watch the great hitters of the game bearing down during an at bat when their team is up big or down big and the game is essentially over. Something like this happens EVERY DAY in the big leagues.

The Lines between player and manager have become blurred
I don't think so... it was the same guy, Pete Rose right???? This is like saying that Barry Bonds pre-steroids is a different situation than Barry Bonds post steroids. Pete on the day BEFORE he placed his first bet on baseball, (whever that was) and Pete after he placed his very first bet on baseball is the SAME PERSON, and should be treated as such. Shoeless Joe was a HOF'er before he disgraced himself.... so what?

Pete Rose can make all the millions he wants...... but he should not be in the HOFEasy fella there are pills that can mellow you out.
Rose the player and Rose the mgr are not the same baseball man. Rose the mgr had direct control over the actions of his team daily not just himself.He could sit a player for a "rest"if he chose to or run a guy out onto the hill with a tired arm if that suited him.Probably never did but as mgr he could .He was in charge of the clubs decisions every game .
I used Fosse to accent a point about his(Pete the player) focus on winning at any cost in even an exhibition game.I have in fact been in clubhouses in both Yankee and Shea and have seen those prominent signs and then watched high stakes poker games and 200 dollar per box MNF grids going on.
My last point was that that old hustler Pete probably loved the fact that every year he's in the limelight and can hawk whatever he can sign.I could care less if he gets in but as a player it seem to me he belongs.
Bonds belongs in the Hall .Prior to 04 these substances were not banned by MLB. As you so eloquently point out baseball betting is banned. Using your point then all the juicers who never tested positive prior to the ban are home free because MLB had not banned or printed new clubhouse signs..Let's not forget the blind eye all these holier than thou folks had when juice was turning the turnstiles. Bud and his gang were building their ballparks and TV revenues on the swollen bodies and numbers and now that the luxury boxes are full it's " time to clean up baseball".Well I have more respect for a guy who was taking performance enhancers in an effort to be at his peak, both for mercenary and for team reasons, than the guy who shows up hungover or is doing blow and wasting his and everyone elses time and money
I've said it before , I don't care what you're on in baseball you still have to hit that 90 plus( think any pitchers juiced?) round object with your round object in about a tenth of a second squarely.
Road Trip to Canton everyone .Let's tear down the Steeler and Raider etc plaques from the 70's and 80's. Jim Brown is once again the all time leading rusher , oh that's right noone cares.

[wamby]

If I had a vote, I wouldn't vote for any player who has played since about 1998. Count me as a fan who has never been particualrly excited by the longball and certainly wasn't in 1998.

I've been to the Hall of Fame twice. The last time was 17 years ago.

[Sockeye]

My take is this. Steroid use is a product of the fans obession with the game.
We the fans demand the players perform on the field. If they perform, at a level we deem to be less than atiquate we in turn "boo" them or call into radio talk shows and bash them while the baseball writers bash them in columns.

On the other hand players that perform at a high level are rewarded with excessively huge contracts paid for by face it us fans who shill outs tons of money paying the absorbant ticket prices, get praised on talk shows and cheered by we the fans. And when a player hits a home run to win the game for our team do we stop and say gee he probably took steroids so therefore it shouldn't count...? Not hardly!

So is it really a wonder why a baseball player would want to use steroids? Isn't it to an extent human nature to feel a desire to be cheered and reveered by millions of fans as opposed to booed and run down by the media?

So I think that we ourselves in large part are to blame for the steroid use in baseball today. I don't think any player should be banned from the game for steroid use. Now that the steroid testing policy is in place I think we should let that work as a deterent. Players such as Palmeiro or Bonds or Sheffield, or Giambi should be judged on the numbers they put up.

[Captain Cold Nose]

My take is this. Steroid use is a product of the fans obession with the game.
We the fans demand the players perform on the field. If they perform, at a level we deem to be less than atiquate we in turn "boo" them or call into radio talk shows and bash them while the baseball writers bash them in columns.

On the other hand players that perform at a high level are rewarded with excessively huge contracts paid for by face it us fans who shill outs tons of money paying the absorbant ticket prices, get praised on talk shows and cheered by we the fans. And when a player hits a home run to win the game for our team do we stop and say gee he probably took steroids so therefore it shouldn't count...? Not hardly!

So is it really a wonder why a baseball player would want to use steroids? Isn't it to an extent human nature to feel a desire to be cheered and reveered by millions of fans as opposed to booed and run down by the media?

So I think that we ourselves in large part are to blame for the steroid use in baseball today. I don't think any player should be banned from the game for steroid use. Now that the steroid testing policy is in place I think we should let that work as a deterent. Players such as Palmeiro or Bonds or Sheffield, or Giambi should be judged on the numbers they put up.
That might be true if only baseball players were using steroids, but it's been prevalent in track and even swimming, sports nowhere near the fan level as baseball, for years.
Just like in any aspect of life, if there is something out there to give you an edge on the competition, chances are you'd take it. That's the all-encompassing you, by the way. I don't think players started taking steroids because they were concerned about boos.

[bryanspellman]

I went to Cooperstown last year with my son. It was awesome. Walking into the Hall with the plaques was like walking into church. The quiet and awe and the looking for your favorite players. It was a great experience for me and left an impression on my then 12 year old son.

As for steroids, my son calls Barry a cheat! In it's simplist form this is just a game and those who try to 'get an edge' by loading the dice, peaking at your hand, or injecting something is a cheat! Even my 12 year old can see that. If it is proven that he did take steriods then cut off his stats starting that year and vote on him based on the prior years and he is still a Hall of Famer, why did he ruin that!?!?!?!?

[StanTheMan]

I used Fosse to accent a point about his(Pete the player) focus on winning at any cost in even an exhibition game.

But that alone is not even CLOSE to getting someone in the HOF. There is evidence of "gamers" and "winning at all cost" EVERYDAY in the big Leagues, IMO

I have in fact been in clubhouses in both Yankee and Shea and have seen those prominent signs and then watched high stakes poker games and 200 dollar per box MNF grids going on.

Next time you are there.... Read the sign again... Are MNF Pools banned? How about NCAA Pools? Betting on how much Milk the Batboy can Drink before he pukes? :ughh Do Card games even have the REMOTE possibility of clouding the contest held on the diamond? Any chance they could POSSIBLY alter a players performance on the field due to his wager on a hand of Poker three hours before the game, or on the bus, or on a plane? You're comparing a Lego building to the Great Pyramid. One of these is the Card Game, the other is betting on a baseball game you play in, or manage, or umpire, or have even the most minor indirect control over. I'll let you figure out which is the Great Pyramid and which is the Lego house.

My last point was that that old hustler Pete probably loved the fact that every year he's in the limelight and can hawk whatever he can sign.I could care less if he gets in but as a player it seem to me he belongs.

His accomplishments while on the absolutely represent a HOF career. Unfortunately he has several unsavory "accomplishments" including signing a document banning himself from baseball, and saying for about a dozen years "I did NOT bet on Baseball." Then meeting with Selig and saying "Yes sir, I did bet on baseball." As the TOTAL PACKAGE, he is not HOF worthy, much less even eligible to be on the ballot. I would find it appropriate, and absolutely dripping with irony, if, once he is in the hands of the Veterans Committee (if he ever gets that far) one of the Veterans on the commitee said loudly and publicly... "Pete lied Publicly about betting on baseball for 12 years. I'll consider voting for him in exactly 12 years time. Call me in the year 20XX"

Bonds belongs in the Hall .Prior to 04 these substances were not banned by MLB.

But these substances were illegal on every square inch of soil in the United States of America.... including every batters box, every gym, and Barry's house. They were illegal in Barry's syringe, they were illegal in Barr's bottom. If he did nothing wrong, why not shoot up in the batters box, or drink a gallon of the clear in the clubhouse when talking to reporters after the game? Maybe the threat of PRISON made Barry do what he did in the privacy of his own circle of "friends." Not against the rules of baseball? How about sharpening the knob of your bat razor sharp and jabbing it into the shoulder of the other team's pitcher before the game? Do you need a poster on the wall for that, or do normal, everyday laws against ASSAULT mean anything??


As you so eloquently point out baseball betting is banned. Using your point then all the juicers who never tested positive prior to the ban are home free because MLB had not banned or printed new clubhouse signs..

No, they are not home free, just criminals, and I don't want them in the HOF either knowing what we know at this point. As more players are "outed" just add them to the list....... Just the suspicion of using Steroids (Sheffield, Bonds, McGwire, etc. is enough to make me want to NOT vote for HOF induction (if I had a vote) and wait for more information. Eddie Matthews hit 500+ Home Runs and waited FOUR BALLOTS before he got in. He was neither a suspected (or proven) juicer, nor a bad guy, or a clubhouse cancer. Yet he waited for YEARS with his 500+ Home Runs. The smart thing to do with these steroid users is to do the same..... Wait and see... the HOF does not need "beyond a reasonable doubt" it is not a court of law.

Let's not forget the blind eye all these holier than thou folks had when juice was turning the turnstiles. Bud and his gang were building their ballparks and TV revenues on the swollen bodies and numbers and now that the luxury boxes are full it's " time to clean up baseball".

The 1919 White Sox were IMMENSLY popular... but it did not save them either, nor should it. Was Pete Popular at all.... HMMMMMM. What does attendance have to do with it??? Would you rather not have a clean game to watch? I feel duped by the ball I watched in the late 90's and early 80's. It was not my father's game, and fortunately, my children will have a better game to watch as well. Popularity, or the Commissioner's Office's well used policy of IGNORING the issue while the Olympics, the NFL etc. all addressed the situation to some degree does NOT relieve a juicer from scrutiny.

Well I have more respect for a guy who was taking performance enhancers in an effort to be at his peak, both for mercenary and for team reasons, than the guy who shows up hungover or is doing blow and wasting his and everyone elses time and money

I agree, but it does eliminate one from HOF contention, IMO. To each his own.

I've said it before , I don't care what you're on in baseball you still have to hit that 90 plus( think any pitchers juiced?) round object with your round object in about a tenth of a second squarely.

Absolutely Correct....... But, juiced pitchers should be treated with the same contempt, IMO. Think a Defense attorney would try this at a Murder Trial......? "Your honor, I think the Murder case against my client should be thrown out of court.... One time, back in the day, some guy got away with Murder. He is walking around free as we speak. In fact, since this guy did it and got away with it, we should stop arresting murderers alltogether, regardless of the evidence against them. The defense Rests, LOL

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Bryan in Indy

[STLCards2]

I went to Cooperstown the Fall after McGwire hit his bogus # 70 in 98. Of course not knowing any better, it seemed like an exciting time to go. If I am not mistaken, that was the year Brett, Ryan, and Yount were elected. I enjoyed Cooperstown, but would have a much better appreciation of it now, since I was only 17 when I went last time.