Freakshow
03-28-2006, 01:41 PM
The Hall of Fame is never going to identify its mistakes, so it’s up to us. This is the 26th and final poll to set up a new wing in the Coop. We'll elect two players to get us up to 34 players. This is your last chance to have a say in who gets set aside.
We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first 32 dishonorees, by position:
C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
1B - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
2B - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski
3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
LF - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter
Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that basic method, but since the differences between candidates are less now than in early rounds, I'll no longer give bonus points for getting a top vote. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 225 players (34 guys).
Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 29 Negro league players are included - they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.
We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.
Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.
So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.
A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. (Underlined players are still active candidates.) The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 26 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk, Lazzeri, Kell, Manush, Bender, Hoyt, Beckley and H. Wilson. (That poll did not include McCarthy, Willis or Chance.) There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.
With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey, Pennock, Combs, Chesbro, Hoyt, Tinker, Schalk, Johnson, Bottomley, Schoendienst, Kell, Willis, Hooper, Manush, Bancroft, Evers, Rizzuto, Mazeroski, Cooper, Cuyler, Hunter and Rice no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:
1.Day L
2.Lazzeri
3.Wilson H
4.Gomez
5.Lombardi
6.Maranville
7.Chance
8.Smith H
9.Sutter
10.Dandridge
We want to isolate the players that don’t reach the HOF’s minimum standards, so that they will not be used as examples for arguing that a similar player deserves enshrinement. We’ll elect one mistake at a time. These are our first 32 dishonorees, by position:
C - Rick Ferrell, Ray Schalk
1B - George Kelly, Jim Bottomley
2B - Red Schoendienst, Johnny Evers, Bill Mazeroski
3B - Fred Lindstrom, Judy Johnson, George Kell
SS - Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, Dave Bancroft, Phil Rizzuto
LF - Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush
CF - Lloyd Waner, Earle Combs
RF - Tommy McCarthy, Ross Youngs, Harry Hooper, Kiki Cuyler, Sam Rice
P - Rube Marquard, Jesse Haines, Chief Bender, Herb Pennock, Jack Chesbro, Waite Hoyt, Vic Willis, Andy Cooper, Catfish Hunter
Over on the History forum they’re running polls using the MVP voting format, voting for 10 guys in rank order, with points assigned 12,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Let’s use that basic method, but since the differences between candidates are less now than in early rounds, I'll no longer give bonus points for getting a top vote. Your worst hall of fame player will be voted #1, the next worst #2, down to your 10th worst. The player with the most total points at the end of the poll (probably about a week) will hereafter be designated as a Mistake. We will follow with another thread to identify the next worst player, and so on. We’ll continue until we’ve voted out 15% of the Coop’s 225 players (34 guys).
Players classified by the HOF as Pioneers/Managers/Executives/Umpires (e.g., Candy Cummings) are not eligible for this election. However, be aware that the 29 Negro league players are included - they are fair game for labeling as Mistakes.
We will use the Hall’s criteria in deciding player’s merit. That means you should take into account the sum total of the man’s contributions both on and off the field. For example, Tommy McCarthy is probably the worst player in the Hall stat-wise. However, he was elected as much for being an innovator, a pioneer and a winning player as he was for his production as a player.
Or Hughie Jennings. He has one of the shortest playing careers in the Hall. However, he was also a successful manager in addition to being the central player on a team often cited as the best of the 19th century. Frank Chance has a similar profile.
So, voters will have to decide how much weight to give non-playing accomplishments. It should be interesting, as voters will need to consider more than just stats.
A couple threads in this forum suggest candidates for voting out. (Underlined players are still active candidates.) The “Upper/Lower Hall of Fame Vote” thread has my list of who I think are the worst 76 players in the Hall. The poll under “Veterans Committee Mistakes” has the 26 worst players being Haines, T.Jackson, Lindstrom, Chesbro, Combs, Marquard, L. Waner, R. Ferrell, Hafey, Youngs, Hooper, G.Kelly, Tinker, Bottomley, Evers, Bancroft, Schoendienst, Rizzuto, Schalk, Lazzeri, Kell, Manush, Bender, Hoyt, Beckley and H. Wilson. (That poll did not include McCarthy, Willis or Chance.) There is also some good discussion from last spring in the thread “Weak HOFers”. Finally, in the thread "5 Tier HOF (v. 2) - The Admirable & Borderline" from 2003, the bottom 25 were identified (alphabetically) as Bancroft, Bottomley, Bresnahan, Chance, Chesbro, Combs, Evers, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Hoyt, T.Jackson, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Maranville, Marquard, Mazeroski, McCarthy, Pennock, Rizzuto, Schalk, Schoendienst, Tinker, L.Waner, and Youngs.
With Lindstrom, Kelly, McCarthy, Marquard, Haines, Waner, T. Jackson, Ferrell, Youngs, Bender, Hafey, Pennock, Combs, Chesbro, Hoyt, Tinker, Schalk, Johnson, Bottomley, Schoendienst, Kell, Willis, Hooper, Manush, Bancroft, Evers, Rizzuto, Mazeroski, Cooper, Cuyler, Hunter and Rice no longer eligible, here's my list of the next ten to vote out:
1.Day L
2.Lazzeri
3.Wilson H
4.Gomez
5.Lombardi
6.Maranville
7.Chance
8.Smith H
9.Sutter
10.Dandridge