Bronson Arroyo traded to Reds for Willy Mo Pena

[Mattingly]

Reds acquire Bronson Arroyo
Wily Mo Pena sent to Boston for starting pitcher (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060320&content_id=1356543&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

CINCINNATI -- The Cincinnati Reds today acquired RHP Bronson Arroyo and cash from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for OF Wily Mo Pena.

Arroyo, 29, went 14-10 with a 4.51 ERA in 35 games (32 starts) for the Red Sox last season. He established career highs in wins (14), starts (32) and innings pitched (205.1) while producing a team-high 20 quality starts.

Arroyo has appeared in the postseason in each of the last three seasons, including as a member of the 2004 World Champion Boston Red Sox.

Originally selected by the Pirates in the third round of the June 1995 draft, Arroyo owns a career record of 33-33 with a 4.59 ERA in 126 games (90 starts) with Pittsburgh (2000-02) and Boston (2003-05).

Pena, 24, batted .248 with 51 HR and 134 RBI in 302 games with the Reds from 2002-05.

[VTSoxFan]

AARRRGHRHGRHGRGHRGHRHGRHGR!:mad: :mad:

Arroyo AND CASH for a backup outfielder with a career .248 average?!?!?!?!?!

[Mattingly]

Sorry you're not too enthused about this news, Annie.

How was Bronson doing in ST?

I see you folks have acquired a Yankee farmhand. Was the Boston FO worried about their OF bench?

[DoubleX]

I think it's a great trade for the Sox. Pena is young (24), has very good power (45 homeruns in his last 647 ABs), and can play all three OF spots. This could signal the beginning of the end for Trot Nixon as an everyday player in Boston.

I also like the trade because the Sox were dealing from a position of surplus. The team had 7 viable starters, and Arroyo might be the worst of them all, so it made sense to deal from that position. Now Papelbon should slide right into the rotation as soon as someone goes down (and that will probably be early in the season).

[VTSoxFan]

Arroyo wasn't doing stellar in ST -- but yesterday's start was very very good, perhaps because he was working with Varitek for the first time this year...

No, I'm not happy about it. We also just signed Juan "I'll get injured getting off the bus at training camp" Gonzalez.

Godamighty. Why couldn't they trade Wells, who WANTED to be traded, and demanded to be traded? Nah, trade away the young stock. Trade away the guy who signed a 3 year deal 2 months ago because he wanted to stay,, and said he valued loyalty over money. :mad: :mad: :grouchy

[Mattingly]

Arroyo wasn't doing stellar in ST -- but yesterday's start was very very good, perhaps because he was working with Varitek for the first time this year...

No, I'm not happy about it. We also just signed Juan "I'll get injured getting off the bus at training camp" Gonzalez.

Godamighty. Why couldn't they trade Wells, who WANTED to be traded, and demanded to be traded? Nah, trade away the young stock. Trade away the guy who signed a 3 year deal 2 months ago because he wanted to stay,, and said he valued loyalty over money. :mad: :mad: :grouchy
I'm guessing they were looking for Wells as a 2006-only option, since I doubt he'd return in 2007. Perhaps they viewed Arroyo's 3-year deal in the same light as Renteria's, in that they weren't expecting as much of him in the future.

I thought that Arroyo was supposed to be their #4 or #5 starter.

Pena may be good to have on the bench, but unless they've got worries about someone spelling Crisp and/or Nixon out there, I'm not sure I'd trade a home-grown starting pitcher for him.

Baseball can be a strange thing at times.

[Mattingly]

I think it's a great trade for the Sox. Pena is young (24), has very good power (45 homeruns in his last 647 ABs), and can play all three OF spots. This could signal the beginning of the end for Trot Nixon as an everyday player in Boston.

I also like the trade because the Sox were dealing from a position of surplus. The team had 7 viable starters, and Arroyo might be the worst of them all, so it made sense to deal from that position. Now Papelbon should slide right into the rotation as soon as someone goes down (and that will probably be early in the season).
You'd mentioned in the Yankee forum of being a fan of Willy. How's his glove, speed? What about him did you like that made you want him back?

[KingNothing13]

In the words of Tim McCarver...."Goodbye Brandon."

At least we won't have to hear McCarver butcher his name anymore.

[DoubleX]

You'd mentioned in the Yankee forum of being a fan of Willy. How's his glove, speed? What about him did you like that made you want him back?

I mentioned that? He is a former Yankees farm-hand, traded to the Reds for Drew Henson (after Henson was traded to the Reds for Denny Neagle).

Pena has very good power, but he has yet to really hit for average and he strikesout A LOT! 116 times in 311 ABS last year - almost 40% of the time.

I think he has decent speed and could be good for 10-12 SBs over a full season.

His glove must be fairly decent as he has played all OF positions including a good chunk in CF. If Griffey were to go down (which does happen from time to time), Pena was next in line for CF, and he probably would have been the Reds CFer if not for Griffey being the man.

Overall, Pena's value is in his power. He's never had more than 336 ABs in a season (2004), but he hit 26 homeruns in that season. Over a full season, his BA might go up and his strikeout rate might go down. One has to wonder about the Reds farm system - Dunn, Kearns, Pena, are all essentially the same type of player. Good power, low average, high strikeout totals.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Reds acquire Bronson Arroyo
Wily Mo Pena sent to Boston for starting pitcher (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060320&content_id=1356543&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

CINCINNATI -- The Cincinnati Reds today acquired RHP Bronson Arroyo and cash from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for OF Wily Mo Pena.

Arroyo, 29, went 14-10 with a 4.51 ERA in 35 games (32 starts) for the Red Sox last season. He established career highs in wins (14), starts (32) and innings pitched (205.1) while producing a team-high 20 quality starts.

Arroyo has appeared in the postseason in each of the last three seasons, including as a member of the 2004 World Champion Boston Red Sox.

Originally selected by the Pirates in the third round of the June 1995 draft, Arroyo owns a career record of 33-33 with a 4.59 ERA in 126 games (90 starts) with Pittsburgh (2000-02) and Boston (2003-05).

Pena, 24, batted .248 with 51 HR and 134 RBI in 302 games with the Reds from 2002-05.

Great trade for the Sox, now I assume they'd start Pena over Nixon and swap him for some pitching.
Pena has big tiem potential.

Good job Theo!

[runningshoes]

Great trade for the Sox, now I assume they'd start Pena over Nixon and swap him for some pitching.
Pena has big tiem potential.

Good job Theo!

I think it's a good move for us as well. Pena has tons of potential.

[Imapotato]

Theo with the OPS+ thinking

Hey, if you love sabermetrics you love this trade

If you love baseball, chemistry and the fact that Arroyo has shown to not be rattled in big games...this is a horrible trade for the Red Sox

Pena is not a good baseball player

[Mike D.]

At first this deal kinda shocked me, as the Sox have been spending a lot of energy trying to move Wells and Clement, with the intent to move Arroyo into the rotation. But the more I think about it, it makes a lot of sense.

A few thoughts:

- The Sox have too many starters.

- Arroyo has more trade value than Wells (age) or Clement (contract).

- Arroyo isn't THAT young...he's already 29, and Boston has Papelbon and Lester knocking on the door.

- Pena is young and ready for a shot at playing every day. He'll probably platoon with Trot this year, and replace him next year (Nixon is a free agent). One of them could also see some time at 1st this year.

Arroyo is really only a 4th or 5th starter (and this year, probably would have started in the pen), but he was a good guy to have on the team...solid, and good with the fans. He was the only player to accompany the trophy to Providence, RI when they brought it down here. He got mobbed, but seemed to love it. He also signed a below-market 3-year deal this offseason hoping to stay in Boston. He'll be missed.

But welcome to Boston, Wily Mo!

[KingJ]

Pena has a lot of power in his swing... even if the bat doesn't hit the ball. This is a good trade for both teams. Arroyo might not even get a rotation job with BOS and this opens the door for Ryan Freel to start in left or 2B.

[hellborn]

Theo with the OPS+ thinking

Hey, if you love sabermetrics you love this trade

If you love baseball, chemistry and the fact that Arroyo has shown to not be rattled in big games...this is a horrible trade for the Red Sox

Pena is not a good baseball player

How can you talk like Arroyo is a big game pitcher? I saw him pitch really well against the Angels in the '04 ALDS, only to have Timlin give away the lead to set up Papi's shot...but, he was HORRIBLE against the Yanks. He started the Game 3 blowout and got banished to the pen. Despite the purse slap groundout by ARod, Bronson had an ERA of almost 8 that '04 postseason, and about 7.5 for his postseason career. I think of him as being a playoff dud, like Tavarez.
Pena is young and was playing some ML ball at 19, has monster power but poor strike zone judgment. He has time to develop at only 24. Could be a serious power hitter, probably not a .400 OBP guy.
Arroyo is a mature pitcher, what he's done recently is what you get. OK to fill a rotation, but please note how low his strikeout rate dropped last year. He can have great games when his control is good, and his stuff is OK, but he seems to tip his breaking stuff at times and likes to hang sliders.

[hellborn]

Anybody remember that the Yanks traded Pena to get Drew Henson??
Great move, Boss...at least you got a lot of press at the time.

[VTSoxFan]

Hey, if you love sabermetrics you love this trade

If you love baseball, chemistry and the fact that Arroyo has shown to not be rattled in big games...this is a horrible trade for the Red Sox


I guess this is the way I look at it. I watch baseball with my right brain mostly, not the left. I see people, not commodities. I see a guy who loved where he was, and signed away earning potential for a "guaranteed" position with the team for which he wanted to play for years.

Hell, they'll probably trade Wake next.

[runningshoes]

We can sit here and talk about this trade all we want, but the fact is Theo is know to have made some pretty smart moves in the past.

I seem to recall a world championship in our not too distant past.

[bluejaysfan]

Not a bad trade for both teams. The Reds desperately need some sort of pitching help and they got that. Pena will be insurance in case Nixon's health falters again.

[WackyMooseSoltersFan]

As, a Sox fan, I'm sad to see Bronson go, along with his easy-going attitude. At the same time, the Sox were dealing from a posisiton of surplus (SP) and someone needed to go. Plus, Pena is a young, up and coming power hitter. Although his average is lower than most Bostonians would like to see in their outfield, Fenway has a way of making hitters. Its a great trade and I wish Bronson the best in Cinnci.

[redlegsfan21]

Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RedSoxVT92]

I was sad to hear that Bronson left. But we already had a lot of starters. And Willy Mo Pena could grow in to a very good power hitter (24 homers in 2004 with 336 AB's 19 homers with 311 AB's in 05, and is only 24) We did need a good back up outfielder because we only have a old outfielder in gonzalez who gets injured all the time and adam stern. I like the speedy adam stern but Willy Mo Pena is better. And it will be better for Arroyo because he will most likley be a starter where if he was in boston he woulda been in the bullpen. Still sad to see a player who wants to play in boston be shipped out and Bronson Arroyo is a very good pitcher. So this was an okay trade for both the reds and the red sox.

[Mike D.]

I still think this is a matter of dealing from a position of strength to fill a hole...the Nixon/Mohr platoon could be solid, but it's a short-term solution at best. Pena gives them their right fielder for the future, with the return of Nixon being a bit unlikely when he becomes a free agent after the season.

[Ravenlord]

a very even trade...assuming Arroyo returns to his 05 form and has been working on his stamina.

and FWIW, Pena has a below average OPS+. however, unlike most guys his age and background, he's well aware he needs to work on his plate discipline and has done so all winter and spring...which actually produced some mostly good-natured ribbing from Johnny Bench this spring.

[hellborn]

As, a Sox fan, I'm sad to see Bronson go, along with his easy-going attitude. At the same time, the Sox were dealing from a posisiton of surplus (SP) and someone needed to go. Plus, Pena is a young, up and coming power hitter. Although his average is lower than most Bostonians would like to see in their outfield, Fenway has a way of making hitters. Its a great trade and I wish Bronson the best in Cinnci.

Bronson seemed like a great guy from meeting him at the NH Baseball Dinner a few years ago, but I think that I might prefer the more intense Schilling-type attitude in a Bosox pitcher. I almost wonder if Bronson's nature and outside interests (music in particular) work against his success as a ML pitcher.
Trade has a good chance of helping both teams, but I wonder if the Reds gave up on the wrong guy. Seems like organizations tend to forget how young certain guys still are when start getting ML playing time young and don't catch on as starters right away.

[DoubleX]

There's all this talk about Pena being the RFer of the Sox future - he might actually be the CFer of the future with Crisp moving to RF.

[EvanAparra]

I dont like this move. This is why players are trading loyalty for cash (johnny damon), because when they do somthing to help out the team like arroyo did, they turn around and trade you to the REDS. poor guy man. I am also a big fan of trot nixon and hope they dont replace him with Pena. Maybe lowell falters and they put youkilis at 3rd and pena at 1st....thats my ideal move...lets give trot a chance to have a huge pre -free agent year...GO TROT!!!

[efin98]

Arroyo owes his entire career to the Red Sox, that's indesputable.

However this trade is a gift to him. He can start fresh in a city that will undoubtably embrace him as the #1 starter for the next few years. He will thrive out there without the pressure of maintaining his superstar status.

Wily Mo fills a need that for the team this year and solves a problem that the team would have had next fall. He will likely thrive in Boston.

And think of it this way- he's another reason Manny Ramirez may want to stay in Boston.

[mef]

Running shoes- Theo has also made some real boners!!!I for one was not happy to see him come back

[Mike D.]

Running shoes- Theo has also made some real boners!!!I for one was not happy to see him come back

I'd say the good far outnumber the bad...would you disagree? If so, which do you consider his biggest "boners"?

[Ravenlord]

There's all this talk about Pena being the RFer of the Sox future - he might actually be the CFer of the future with Crisp moving to RF.
entirely possible. Pena's actually faster than what most people think. back in 2003 he was the 2nd fastest man going from first to third in the NL behind Corey Patterson (i doubt that's really changed).

but more importantly, Pena's best position is in center. unlike the corners, he reads the ball very well off the bat and has a very quick first move. the issue is he doesn't always take a good route to the ball, but right now, he's so fast, it usually doesn't matter. he'll never be a gold glover, but in center, he's not the huge defensive liablity he's made out to be.

in the corners, it's kinda like watching Terrence Long, takes him about a full second to react to the ball, and on top of taking bad routes, he will occasionally go in the wrong direction.

Pena's arm is very strong. just a tick under Ichiro, Vlad, or Guillen. however, i think Pena is far more accurate that either three with it. he damn near had four OF assists in one game in 04. instead he had zero because the catcher dropped four perfect throws. but it was one of the most impressive things i've ever seen in the field.

[SoxSon]

I'd say the good far outnumber the bad...would you disagree? If so, which do you consider his biggest "boners"?


I had to draw some further attention to this. Well-put. :laugh

[SoxSon]

However this trade is a gift to him. He can start fresh in a city that will undoubtably embrace him as the #1 starter for the next few years. He will thrive out there without the pressure of maintaining his superstar status.

I would imagine that Bronson feels very little like this was a gift to him. I would imagine that he feels like he's been hit by a double-crossing semi right about now.
Regardless of how one feels about the trade, one can't like the way Boston has conversed with Arroyo up to this point this season.

[EvanAparra]

I would imagine that Bronson feels very little like this was a gift to him. I would imagine that he feels like he's been hit by a double-crossing semi right about now.
Regardless of how one feels about the trade, one can't like the way Boston has conversed with Arroyo up to this point this season.


This is not a gift to go to Cinci. Who, other than griffey, WANTS to go there? Especially since its bronson, he loves boston, loves his teammates, and took a discount to stay there. Theo really comes off looking like a jerk here, but i guess its all business..but like i said before...i cant blame johnny after this.

[FlashGordon]

I'd be lying if I said this didn't surprise me. I considered Bronson to be trade bait, but I didn't think it would be so soon. I hope he lands a starting role in Cinci, he deserves a shot at it. I'm somewhat irritated that the Red Sox had to package anything to sweeten the deal in return for Peña and it makes me wonder just how good of a horse trader Theo really is. If the Sox are paying any portion of his salary, they're getting hosed; Bronson is at least a 3-starter for most MLB teams. My fiancé is going to be bummed when she finds out.

On another note, I've noticed quite a few posts speculating that the arrival of Willy Mo means the beginning of the end for Trot Nixon. I'm surprised I'm not seeing more reaction to that very real possibility. Are the Sox just hanging loose to see if Trot puts himself on the DL while platooning? I'm guessing Theo isn't holding his breath that Juan Gone will set foot in Fenway. Oh well, at least Coco Crisp is hitting about the .450 mark in ST. That's something...I guess.

[FlashGordon]

Especially since its bronson, he loves boston, loves his teammates, and took a discount to stay there.Very true. That might very well be the last time anyone gives Theo and the Sox a discount.

[SoxSon]

That might very well be the last time anyone gives Theo and the Sox a discount.

You said it, Flash.

As far as Nixon goes, I could be off on this, but I think most of us sense his end in Boston coming. We may not like to talk about it, but it's there (kind of like Mattingly...;) ).

[MudvilleMike]

a very even trade...assuming Arroyo returns to his 05 form and has been working on his stamina.

and FWIW, Pena has a below average OPS+.

If Pena doesn't improve, this is a bad trade, but he has the pontential of becoming a real star. It's a calculated risk that makes sense to me, though I hate to see Arroyo go.

[Mattingly]

How's Crisp working out in ST? Any reaction from the manager or FO? Reason I'm asking is that perhaps in addition to spelling or some kind of interim replacement for Nixon, Peña may also spell Crisp a few times, as he plays all 3OF spots.

[VTSoxFan]

Theo has indeed put his foot in it a few times; Let me see: Jeremy Giambi; Kim's whopping 2-year deal (which anyone with at least one working brain cell could see was a mistake) Jimmy Anderson; Sauerbeck; Suppan; I think we would have been better off keeping OC; ... There are more, but I have a horrible cold and my brain is at low ebb right now. It seems to me that Theo & co treat all but a select few players with a remarkable amount of indifference bordering on disrespect.

Today a friend of mine, blindsided by the Arroyo trade, said that if this keeps up, future free agents will steer waaaay clear of Boston, knowing that no deal (even for one year) with the Sox deal will be worth the paper it's written on.

I hate the thought of Trot leaving. He isn't the best player in the world; he never will be. But he defines the spirit of the Sox -- the grinding, dirty, all-out, run-through-walls mentality that so endears players to these fans. That's why we like Gabe Kapler, and liked Daubach, and guys who just play their hearts out. To think of Trot leaving just makes me ill.

Baseball is SO much more than a business; a team is not simply comprised of employees and bosses. It takes trust and loyalty going in both directions, and the ability for players to trust the Sox front office just took a hammer-blow today. Before anyone jumps on me about what I say, I repeat that I am fully aware that there are business aspects to modern baseball. I know this. But the front office should take a minute and think about what they've lost today, and I don't mean a pretty decent pitcher.

Being a fan is about loyalty, win or lose. I've been a Sox fan almost all of my life; families have been Sox fans for generations, in the long desert between World Series wins. It's not ALL about numbers; it's not ALL about winning. It's about The Game, and the men who play it. I for one can't root just for the uniform and never root for the guys who wear it.

I may come to like Pena; I know I'll never warm to Theo.

[DoubleX]

Theo has indeed put his foot in it a few times; Let me see: Jeremy Giambi; Kim's whopping 2-year deal (which anyone with at least one working brain cell could see was a mistake) Jimmy Anderson; Sauerbeck; Suppan; I think we would have been better off keeping OC; ... There are more, but I have a horrible cold and my brain is at low ebb right now. It seems to me that Theo & co treat all but a select few players with a remarkable amount of indifference bordering on disrespect.

Today a friend of mine, blindsided by the Arroyo trade, said that if this keeps up, future free agents will steer waaaay clear of Boston, knowing that no deal (even for one year) with the Sox deal will be worth the paper it's written on.

I hate the thought of Trot leaving. He isn't the best player in the world; he never will be. But he defines the spirit of the Sox -- the grinding, dirty, all-out, run-through-walls mentality that so endears players to these fans. That's why we like Gabe Kapler, and liked Daubach, and guys who just play their hearts out. To think of Trot leaving just makes me ill.

Baseball is SO much more than a business; a team is not simply comprised of employees and bosses. It takes trust and loyalty going in both directions, and the ability for players to trust the Sox front office just took a hammer-blow today. Before anyone jumps on me about what I say, I repeat that I am fully aware that there are business aspects to modern baseball. I know this. But the front office should take a minute and think about what they've lost today, and I don't mean a pretty decent pitcher.

Being a fan is about loyalty, win or lose. I've been a Sox fan almost all of my life; families have been Sox fans for generations, in the long desert between World Series wins. It's not ALL about numbers; it's not ALL about winning. It's about The Game, and the men who play it. I for one can't root just for the uniform and never root for the guys who wear it.

I may come to like Pena; I know I'll never warm to Theo.

I'm surprised to see all this resentment towards Theo (and not just from you Annie). Wasn't most of Red Sox nation weeping just a few months ago when it looked like Theo was gone? He's made some moves that haven't panned out, but what GM hasn't done that? IMO, this trade is great for the Sox. The team dealt from a position of surplus, a 7th starter, and acquired a very good young talent that at the very least, will provide good power off the bench. Yeah I know management made promises to Arroyo, but was that Theo or was that before Theo? The game is still a business and a GM has be above sentimentality and make the tough decisions that will make the team better. I think this deal certainly has the chance of making the team better since it acquired a young power hitter for its 7th starter. Imagine if you were a fan of the A's or the Royals - those GMs have to make the tough decisions to let their homegrown stars go and get what they can in return for the good of the team in the longrun. That's just the way the game is now, players are going to come and go all the time, a good GM needs to stay one step ahead and know when things are ripe. Arroyo was having a tough spring, he was going to be buried in the bullpen and as a spot-starter, so the chances are his value would have gone down as time went out, so now was the right time to make this kind of trade.

[Mike D.]

Theo has indeed put his foot in it a few times; Let me see: Jeremy Giambi; Kim's whopping 2-year deal (which anyone with at least one working brain cell could see was a mistake) Jimmy Anderson; Sauerbeck; Suppan; I think we would have been better off keeping OC; ... There are more, but I have a horrible cold and my brain is at low ebb right now. It seems to me that Theo & co treat all but a select few players with a remarkable amount of indifference bordering on disrespect.

Giambi cost a minor league pitcher who has 30 career games at this point. He had a .400 OBP at age 27 the year the Sox acquired him. At the time, did that really seem like a bad move?

Kim's deal was a big one, relatively, but he was a 24 year old starter/reliever coming off a season with a 3.31 ERA. Again, at the time, not a terrible deal at all. When he didn't work out, they dumped him.

These and the others were all fairly minor deals that didn't work out for the team, but can you really say that any of them were "terrible" moves when they were made?

In that same time, Theo also brought in many of the core guys who led to the world series win (Ortiz, Schilling, Damon, Foulke).

Compare his track record to Gorman or Duquette, and I think it's obvious he's the best Red Sox GM in a LONG time.

[FlashGordon]

These and the others were all fairly minor deals that didn't work out for the team, but can you really say that any of them were "terrible" moves when they were made?

In that same time, Theo also brought in many of the core guys who led to the world series win (Ortiz, Schilling, Damon, Foulke).

Compare his track record to Gorman or Duquette, and I think it's obvious he's the best Red Sox GM in a LONG time.You won't find many around here who will defend Duquette in a comparison with Theo.

Still, there were plenty of moves that made fans uncomfortable at the time (ditching Cabrera for Renteria, then dealing Hanley Ramirez come to mind), that we were willing to wait and see the final outcome before passing judgement. In fact, nearly all trades have to be approached with some cautious enthusiasm by the fans, otherwise they wouldn't be fans. But when a trade goes bad there is a natural tendency to look back at the time of the acquisition and selectively pick out the negative voices that say, I told you so.

BK Kim was certainly one of those you could see coming. His numbers were not that impressive and he'd already shown that he was inconsistent in pressure situations. That was an expensive one. Renteria wasn't cheap either, but the bigger question is which was the worse move: acquiring him, or ditching him for little return only one year later. The book isn't closed on David Wells, either. That's one that could very well explode if Boomer's mouth and back go into simultaneous spasms. And we still have yet to see Beckett earn his paycheck.

I think many Sox fans are still trying to figure out what the long-term strategy is here. It certainly doesn't seem to be improving upon the previous administration's track record of contentious splits with fan favorites.

[TonyK]

You can never have too much pitching. Especially when some of your starters are right around the age of 40. I assumed when they got Beckett they were looking ahead and trying to develop a good young core of starters. Plus, we just lost a starting pitcher with playoff experience.

On the other hand, Pena is from the DR too so I wonder if Big Papi had anything to do with this trade? If not, maybe he can help Pena with his hitting. There is the chance that Pena could blossom here and hit for a high average to go along with those home runs he will hit.

[efin98]

I'd be lying if I said this didn't surprise me. I considered Bronson to be trade bait, but I didn't think it would be so soon. I hope he lands a starting role in Cinci, he deserves a shot at it. I'm somewhat irritated that the Red Sox had to package anything to sweeten the deal in return for Peña and it makes me wonder just how good of a horse trader Theo really is.
If the Sox are paying any portion of his salary, they're getting hosed; Bronson is at least a 3-starter for most MLB teams. My fiancé is going to be bummed when she finds out.

It's not a straight up one for one deal, Boston has to pay the difference in their salaries(around $1.5 Million or so)

And there's no way he is anything above a 4th starter on any team other than a crappy one like the Reds, not with a 24-19 record the past two years and an average post season record. If not for the heavy hitting Red Sox he would have a losing record. He isn't as good as he is being made out to be.

On another note, I've noticed quite a few posts speculating that the arrival of Willy Mo means the beginning of the end for Trot Nixon. I'm surprised I'm not seeing more reaction to that very real possibility. Are the Sox just hanging loose to see if Trot puts himself on the DL while platooning?

Trot is averaging just over 123 games a year for his career with what seems like yearly stints on the DL during the most contested time in the schedule. It's inevitable that he will be on the DL, the Sox are covering their butts ahead of time instead of scurrying around looking for someone later at a much higher price. The trade gave the team something they needed and frees up more money next year for the team to go out and get another missing piece.

I'm guessing Theo isn't holding his breath that Juan Gone will set foot in Fenway. Oh well, at least Coco Crisp is hitting about the .450 mark in ST. That's something...I guess.

They have one thing they didn't have before- options. Juan Gone is a low risk chance, and getting Wily Mo covers them in case he is a flop.

[efin98]

Yeah I know management made promises to Arroyo, but was that Theo or was that before Theo?

It was before Theo, one of if not the last action that the GM duo made before Theo took over again.

[FlashGordon]

And there's no way he is anything above a 4th starter on any team other than a crappy one like the Reds, not with a 24-19 record the past two years and an average post season record. If not for the heavy hitting Red Sox he would have a losing record. He isn't as good as he is being made out to be.I agree that Bronson isn't a one or two starter, but I think you over-estimate the number of teams for which the question marks don't begin until the 4-slot. I tend to feel that the bottom 15 teams have only 1 or 2 solid starters and that the difference between most contenders and pretenders is whether they have a 3rd. Bronson would make a reasonable gamble for a team looking for that stable 3rd at a price they can afford. Plus, he brings with him now the post-season in a pressure-cooker experience that will make him surprisingly resilient in the smaller markets. We'll have to check back at the ASB to see where he is.

[efin98]

You can never have too much pitching. Especially when some of your starters are right around the age of 40. I assumed when they got Beckett they were looking ahead and trying to develop a good young core of starters. Plus, we just lost a starting pitcher with playoff experience.

You can have too much pitching, especially if you have a mediocre buy holding back a young star on the rise. And you don't lose a pitcher with much playoff experience, you lose a guy who is spotty in the playoffs at best. And you may have three starters who are at or over 40 but those same guys can and will give you solid starts. One of those guys is not even showing any kind of rust due to age- he's a knuckler whose kind have been notorious for their long careers.


On the other hand, Pena is from the DR too so I wonder if Big Papi had anything to do with this trade? If not, maybe he can help Pena with his hitting. There is the chance that Pena could blossom here and hit for a high average to go along with those home runs he will hit.

Ortiz bloomed when he came to Boston. It may do the same for Pena. Perhaps Papa Jack could improve him in the same way he improved Papi.

[efin98]

I agree that Bronson isn't a one or two starter, but I think you over-estimate the number of teams for which the question marks don't begin until the 4-slot. I tend to feel that the bottom 15 teams have only 1 or 2 solid starters and that the difference between most contenders and pretenders is whether they have a 3rd. Bronson would make a reasonable gamble for a team looking for that stable 3rd at a price they can afford.

He's cheap and has experience, but his record isn't much to cheer about. He needs runs support to have any effectiveness otherwise he is a non factor. Him going to a team like the Reds may improve his stature but it doesn't help him much if they can't produce offensively. He may be what the Reds need and if he is good this year he will thrive outside of the limelight, but I doubt it. I think he's overrated and no better than a #4 or 5 starter regardless of where he goes.

Plus, he brings with him now the post-season in a pressure-cooker experience that will make him surprisingly resilient in the smaller markets. We'll have to check back at the ASB to see where he is.

His post seasons are nothing to cheer about, he was mainly a reliever and not a starter. He hasn't been overpowering nor has he been a stand out, just average at best.

[hellborn]

I hate the thought of Trot leaving. He isn't the best player in the world; he never will be. But he defines the spirit of the Sox -- the grinding, dirty, all-out, run-through-walls mentality that so endears players to these fans. That's why we like Gabe Kapler, and liked Daubach, and guys who just play their hearts out. To think of Trot leaving just makes me ill.

I love Trot's attitude, but he just seems to be failing physically...old before his time. Kapler seems like a great guy, and I wish I had his physique, but I wish that he actually knew how to play baseball at a high level. He stutter-steps in the outfield when the ball is hit to him, he has atrocious swing mechanics, and I have seen him pull some amazing rocks...like trying to make a fancy pirouette throw to hold a runner after a catch in RF and throwing the ball into LF instead. Daubach was fun in the one week a month when he could actually hit...just when you'd given up on him, he'd get a clutch hit off a tough pitcher and you'd be back on the hook.
Because I love the Bosox and want to see them win, I want to see them get players who can REALLY, REALLY play baseball above all else...if they are also great guys, even better. Papi's big heart and toughness in the clutch are fantastic, but loopy Manny still wins lots of games for us without having the inspiring personality.
I think that we often see ballplayers as being the people we want them to be and get too involved in what we think their personalities are...I want the Bosox to win, and ballplayers who can actually play the game are what helps the team the most. Trot's grit and manliness don't do much when he's sitting on the bench with a bulging disk.
With all respect to VTSF, I think that there were genuine worries about Trot's future as a player and the management was brilliant to address them. And, I can easily see Pena being a far better player than Nixon at his peak. If he shares some of Trot's toughness and leadership skills, the team will be really lucky.

[TonyK]

Befin98: Remind me about how we had too much pitching after Schilling, Wakefield, Timlin, Foulke, Wells and Tavarez are gone.

You may be right and they want to get something now for Arroyo. I would rather have traded Wells for another outfielder, but I understand how difficult that was.

[CuriousBoston]

:grouchy :mad:

Okay, I read ALL the posts, fighting my urge to "me, too" to Annie's postS.

Where do I start?
1. A decent pitcher, age less than 30, not injury prone, wanting to stay in Boston, WITH 20 QUALITY STARTS LAST YEAR.

2. Did I say wants to stay in Boston? No contract fight, just sign me up, I want to pitch.

3. Trading a healthy PITCHER at the beginning of the season. Whose side is Theo on? There is no such thing as too many pitchers. (oh, great, Wells is starting today) WELLS!!!!!!!!!!

4. Quoting Theo "We don't have a lot of power". What are Manny and Ortiz, chopped liver? They are still searching for that ball Ortiz hit over everything.
ps-JUST EXACTLY WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE POWER, THEO????

5. Treating Arroyo like this is wrong, it is just wrong. Every baseball player is going to file this away under "Epstein is a robot with no heart."

6. To those who say Arroyo needs to make way for Papelbon, the DL list can get too full, too fast. Remember Tek and Nomah?

7. Can Schilling pull his weight this year? Or is he knocking people down to cover his lack of control?

8. As to the speculation that Trot will be traded..:mad: :mad: :grouchy

9. I am not feeling friendly to Theo right now. :grouchy
10. Theo must believe that guy that is trying to tell us there is no civil war. ANY team that has Wells as a starting pitcher has no business trading a healthy pitcher under 30 with 20 quality starts last season. :mad: :eek: :grouchy :hp

HEY THEO! TRADE TROT AND TEK TO NY, WHYDON'TCHA?

Note: I was prevented from using more "unsmilies".

[VTSoxFan]

Here's another angle: Arroyo expressed (albeit mildly) dissatisfaction with the turnover in the roster. He said something in his postgame interview Sunday about how sorry he was to see so many familiar teammates go, and how hard it was going to be to get used to all the new infielders, and he hinted at how he was uncomfortable with how the offseason moves shook out.

Next day -- yer outta here.

I grant that the deal couldn't have been engineered overnight, but he probably had hinted at his dissatisfaction before this. It's not a matter of Arroyo being a malcontent -- he wanted to stay (unlike Wells, who refused to even take part in the team photo). But he expressed discontent with the bosses. Just makes the conspiracy theorist in me wonder......

A cat may not look at the king.

Here's food for thought: Varitek has expressed the same concerns on occasion. 3 years left in his deal. Hmmm.

---
For the record, I never really cottoned to Theo. You can look over my posts from the last few years to confirm this if you think I'm just saying this today because I'm not particularly happy. I didn't particularly mourn his departure nor did I hail his return. I think the World Series win, as transcendentally blissful as it was, was in great part due to a fortunate alignment of circumstance as much to any wheeling and dealing by the front office.

[Mike D.]

You won't find many around here who will defend Duquette in a comparison with Theo.


And Lou Gorman, who was FAR worse than Duquette.


Still, there were plenty of moves that made fans uncomfortable at the time (ditching Cabrera for Renteria, then dealing Hanley Ramirez come to mind), that we were willing to wait and see the final outcome before passing judgement. In fact, nearly all trades have to be approached with some cautious enthusiasm by the fans, otherwise they wouldn't be fans. But when a trade goes bad there is a natural tendency to look back at the time of the acquisition and selectively pick out the negative voices that say, I told you so.

BK Kim was certainly one of those you could see coming. His numbers were not that impressive and he'd already shown that he was inconsistent in pressure situations. That was an expensive one. Renteria wasn't cheap either, but the bigger question is which was the worse move: acquiring him, or ditching him for little return only one year later. The book isn't closed on David Wells, either. That's one that could very well explode if Boomer's mouth and back go into simultaneous spasms. And we still have yet to see Beckett earn his paycheck.


BK's numbers weren't that good? At the time he signed the contract, he was coming off a year with a 3.31 ERA. His ERA the two previous years? 2.04 and 2.94. He was a young, better, and more versitile starter who was younger and more versitile than the one Theo's now getting crap from some for trading.

Cabrera isn't that great a player, but fans latched onto the 2004 team like crazy. He was the perfect peice at that point...but long term?

Renteria...they overpaid him, saw the problem, and fixed it. The Sox are better with Crisp and Gonzalez than they would have been with Renteria and whoever they'd find to play CF (Roberts? Stern?).

And Wells? He won 15 games last year, and is on an incentive laden contract. How can he NOT work out for Boston? If he sucks, they cut him and replace him.


I think many Sox fans are still trying to figure out what the long-term strategy is here. It certainly doesn't seem to be improving upon the previous administration's track record of contentious splits with fan favorites.

I think the problem that 99% of fans have no idea how to build a team. They latch onto their favorites and the familiar and get complacent. A lot of Red Sox fans would have been happy to sign the entire 2004 team to long-term deals and keep the party going. The only problem with that is that in 2006-2010, the Red Sox would, well...suck.

I think the long term plan is taking interesting shape...kind of a "rebuild while competing", with a mix of vets and youth. Beckett, Crisp, Papelbon, Hansen, Lester, Youkillis, and now Pena are a core of young players that will only be added to as the older guys move on or retire.

[Mike D.]

Here's another angle: Arroyo expressed (albeit mildly) dissatisfaction with the turnover in the roster. He said something in his postgame interview Sunday about how sorry he was to see so many familiar teammates go, and how hard it was going to be to get used to all the new infielders, and he hinted at how he was uncomfortable with how the offseason moves shook out.

Next day -- yer outta here.

I grant that the deal couldn't have been engineered overnight, but he probably had hinted at his dissatisfaction before this. It's not a matter of Arroyo being a malcontent -- he wanted to stay (unlike Wells, who refused to even take part in the team photo). But he expressed discontent with the bosses. Just makes the conspiracy theorist in me wonder......


The Reds and Red Sox have been talking about an outfielder-for-pitcher trade for ages...the Sox just wanted them to take Clement. When it became obvious that wouldn't happen, they went with their next most expendable pitcher...Arroyo was gonna end up being a long man out of the pen this year in Boston, so they could afford to move him.


A cat may not look at the king.

Here's food for thought: Varitek has expressed the same concerns on occasion. 3 years left in his deal. Hmmm.


Not gonna happen. Arroyo is no Varitek, and besides, the Red Sox knowingly gave Varitek a contract that'd make him nearly impossible to trade.


For the record, I never really cottoned to Theo. You can look over my posts from the last few years to confirm this if you think I'm just saying this today because I'm not particularly happy. I didn't particularly mourn his departure nor did I hail his return. I think the World Series win, as transcendentally blissful as it was, was in great part due to a fortunate alignment of circumstance as much to any wheeling and dealing by the front office.

Well, they were close in 2004 (due in part to the additions made in the off-season), then went out and filled thier two biggest holes....a #1 starter and a closer. Sure, what happens on the field is what truely decides who wins and loses, but the front office set the team up pretty well for 2004.

And hey, if you don't like Theo, that's certainly your right...the guys no saint, and like every GM, he's made deals that don't work out.

But I grew up in the Gorman era (ugh), and became an adult in the Duquette era, and I sure like what I'm seeing now compared to both of those times.

[DoubleX]

Wow, can't believe what I'm seeing - a divided Red Sox Nation.

From my outside perspective, Theo is a good GM. He's made his gaffes, but what GM hasn't? As others have pointed out, Theo has done a much, much better job than his predecessors. Three consecutive postseason appearances, a World Series title? What else could you ask for? He makes the tough decisions and rises about sentimentality like a GM should. A sentimental GM will not be able to build a successful team.

As for this trade in particular, it makes a tremendous amount of sense for the Sox for the following reasons:

- Arroyo would never be more than a back of the rotation guy for the Sox. The longer he's buried in that role, the more his trade value will go down. Theo made the most of his value to benefit the team in other areas.

- This removes a roadblock to Papelbon getting a real shot at the rotation. He's undoubtedly first in line now, and Papelbon could be a fixture in the rotation by the end of the season. With Arroyo there, there would be more uncertainty regarding Papelbon's role.

- Arroyo gets a chance to be a front of the rotation starter on a team that desperately needs his services, while the Sox get a young player, with good potential and a ton of power that adds needed depth to the OF. This is a very pragmatic move by management, it shows that they realize that Nixon almost always has issues and that the OF depth is thin. Most importantly, Pena is terrific against lefthanders. Nixon is dreadful against lefthanders. The Sox lineup against lefties is not good - it was pretty common knowledge in the past few years that the Sox were very vulnerable to lefties. There is reason that Randy Johnson was 5-0 against the Sox last year. The team should now be a lot better against lefties.

[Mike D.]

The OF depth the Sox got in this deal not only provides them with a replacement plan for Nixon, but also allows them to trade non-roster invitee Dustin Mohr for a prospect or something else helpful, which I expect to happen before opening day.

The Sox front office is smart. Look at the little things they do with non-roster invitees, offering arbitration for their FA's, and making low-cost acquisitions (Gonzalez, Petegine, Mohr) that can either help the team or become trade bait down the line.

[2Chance]

This trade makes good sense for both teams.

The Reds have been really thin in the pitching dept for a long time. They get a #3 starter who has thus far stayed healthy. Their track record has been a mixed bag of reclamation projects, and actually getting a decent pitcher who doesn't fit that mold will be good for them. And as noted, his trade value may have seen its peak. This winter has been a drought for pitching help across the board.

The Red Sox get another stump-legged outfielder who can hit the ball a mile. (You guys have always liked that kind!) He will be in a great platoon position with Trot, mashing against lefties. He is a good guy to have around, and I have seen him play in Cincinnati and in A-Ball, and he can really turn some good plays in the field.

[YOUgodofwalks]

Everyone is talking about how Willy Mo Pena spells the end for Trot and I just don't see it. Sure the guys got some power but a .248 career average? The way I see it, Willy rides the bench providing some depth and if Trot goes down then they might give him a shot.

Yes, Pena is young, he could develop and maybe his BA would go up for a full season, and maybe the Sox have ideas for him being a long term replacement for Trot but not this year if Trot is healthy.

[Mike D.]

Everyone is talking about how Willy Mo Pena spells the end for Trot and I just don't see it. Sure the guys got some power but a .248 career average? The way I see it, Willy rides the bench providing some depth and if Trot goes down then they might give him a shot.

Yes, Pena is young, he could develop and maybe his BA would go up for a full season, and maybe the Sox have ideas for him being a long term replacement for Trot but not this year if Trot is healthy.

I don't think anyone is saying that Pena will replace Nixon THIS year. He'll platoon with him this year, but there was a very good chance that Boston wasn't going to resign Nixon after this year anyway (he'll be 32 and has been injury prone), and this sets them up with a potential replacement who will be under their control at least until 2008.

And Pena hasn't hit for average, yet...but he's 24...an age at which Nixon had 31 career at bats. Given proper support and playing time, he could at least hit enough to keep his 40+ homer power in the lineup.

I like Nixon, have since Boston drafted him in 1993...but general managers don't get to be sentimental about players, that's the job of the fans. If the Sox brought back Damon and Nixon on long-term deals, they'd be on the hook in a couple years with a bunch of old, broken down players.

[DoubleX]

I think the Sox are definitely looking at a RF platoon this year, well at least until Trot goes onto the DL, at which Pena will have an opportunity to permanently wrest the position away from Trot. But just look at how the two fare against lefties for their careers:

Nixon: 516 AB, .215 BA, 10 HR, .632 OPS
Pena: 257 AB, .272 BA, 19 HR, .879 OPS

Nixon has no business whatsoever being anywhere near a ballfield when a lefty is pitching. Pena gives the Sox a good bat against lefties that should improve with more experience, and should help counter the perception around the league that the Sox lineup is weak against lefties.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

Pena is for the future...

It's an even trade. Why they didn't trade Wells but Arroyo? Don't ask me why...
Wells will play just another year, Arroyo was cheap, a Boston-fan, and everybody loved him.

But on the other hand, I have to say. Playoff 2005, all the pressure was on Many, and Ortiz. The other guys didn't hit the ball well and hard. That's why we got Pena, who could be the next Ortiz in times to come.

I have a laughing eye and a sad one. We'll see if Theo Epstein was right.

[Boston Boxer]

It's not a straight up one for one deal, Boston has to pay the difference in their salaries(around $1.5 Million or so)

And there's no way he is anything above a 4th starter on any team other than a crappy one like the Reds, not with a 24-19 record the past two years and an average post season record. If not for the heavy hitting Red Sox he would have a losing record. He isn't as good as he is being made out to be.



Trot is averaging just over 123 games a year for his career with what seems like yearly stints on the DL during the most contested time in the schedule. It's inevitable that he will be on the DL, the Sox are covering their butts ahead of time instead of scurrying around looking for someone later at a much higher price. The trade gave the team something they needed and frees up more money next year for the team to go out and get another missing piece.



They have one thing they didn't have before- options. Juan Gone is a low risk chance, and getting Wily Mo covers them in case he is a flop.

i am going to start calling you "The Hammer" because you always hit the nail right on the head my friend:D

[Mike D.]

Pena is for the future...
It's an even trade. Why they didn't trade Wells but Arroyo? Don't ask me why...
Wells will play just another year, Arroyo was cheap, a Boston-fan, and everybody loved him.

You answered your own question. If they traded Wells, they wouldn't have gotten much at all for him, they tried all winter and got nowhere. It takes two to tango...you gotta find another team that wants an old, fat, loud-mouthed pitcher coming off knee surgury and who could make up to $9 million a year. And then you gotta get that team to give you something of value in return for him. Teams wanted Arroyo a lot more, and he has value. The Sox were able to get a talented young outfielder in return for a guy who'd be at the bottom of their overloaded rotation or in their bullpen this year.

[efin98]

Befin98: Remind me about how we had too much pitching after Schilling, Wakefield, Timlin, Foulke, Wells and Tavarez are gone. You may be right and they want to get something now for Arroyo. I would rather have traded Wells for another outfielder, but I understand how difficult that was.

Foulke, Schilling, Wells, and Tavarez are all marked me this next year or two. Each will eventually be supplanted by the home grown talent of Lester, Hanson, Papelbon, and the next free agent pitcher(paid for by Arroyo and Trot's departure). Wakefield will be here for the forseeable future due to his dual role of being a good starter and a good reliever.

[efin98]

Everyone is talking about how Willy Mo Pena spells the end for Trot and I just don't see it. Sure the guys got some power but a .248 career average? The way I see it, Willy rides the bench providing some depth and if Trot goes down then they might give him a shot.

That's the plan for this year, platoon him with Trot and use him as a replacement when/if Trot goes down. He won't be an everyday player this year.

Yes, Pena is young, he could develop and maybe his BA would go up for a full season, and maybe the Sox have ideas for him being a long term replacement for Trot but not this year if Trot is healthy.

With at $7.5 Million+ a year contract and Adam Stern awaiting his chance, I doubt Wily Mo will be riding the bench next year. They have Wily Mo through the 2008 season on his current contract at a significant discount compared to Nixon($1.5 Million or so to $7.6 Million) and the difference between the two will be put to use elsewhere....say, like a new starting pitcher! Oh wait- that's logic at work, can't have logic overdo loyalties to home grown players!:D

[efin98]

i am going to start calling you "The Hammer" because you always hit the nail right on the head my friend:D

You can call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner :D

[FlashGordon]

- Arroyo would never be more than a back of the rotation guy for the Sox. The longer he's buried in that role, the more his trade value will go down. Theo made the most of his value to benefit the team in other areas.

- Arroyo gets a chance to be a front of the rotation starter on a team that desperately needs his services, while the Sox get a young player, with good potential and a ton of power that adds needed depth to the OF. The one thing that keeps me from feeling too sorry for Bronson is the fact that he'll be moving up in the rotation. As long as he sat behind Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield, and soon to be Beckett, he was always going to be the fine print at the bottom of the sports page. As small and disorganized as Cinci is, a solid showing in a Reds uniform at the front of the rotation will mean paydirt when he goes FA. And if he stumbles from time to time, he won't have the unforgiving confines of RSN to rip him to shreads over it. He'll never be Cooperstown bound, but the concentration of heavy contracts in the northeast often skews the perspective of so-called fans in evaluating his worth. In the end, he was a good kid with some talent surrounded by big names with much more of it.

I wish him well.

[DoubleX]

The one thing that keeps me from feeling too sorry for Bronson is the fact that he'll be moving up in the rotation. As long as he sat behind Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield, and soon to be Beckett, he was always going to be the fine print at the bottom of the sports page. As small and disorganized as Cinci is, a solid showing in a Reds uniform at the front of the rotation will mean paydirt when he goes FA. And if he stumbles from time to time, he won't have the unforgiving confines of RSN to rip him to shreads over it. He'll never be Cooperstown bound, but the concentration of heavy contracts in the northeast often skews the perspective of so-called fans in evaluating his worth. In the end, he was a good kid with some talent surrounded by big names with much more of it.

I wish him well.

Don't forget that Papelbon was poised to move ahead of Arroyo as well. A full season as a spot-starter and long reliever would really depress Arroyo's value, particularly if his spring troubles continued into the season.

If I'm a Sox fan, I really like this trade. The Sox are lot a stronger and deeper team, IMO.

[FlashGordon]

He's cheap and has experience, but his record isn't much to cheer about. He needs runs support to have any effectiveness otherwise he is a non factor. Him going to a team like the Reds may improve his stature but it doesn't help him much if they can't produce offensively. He may be what the Reds need and if he is good this year he will thrive outside of the limelight, but I doubt it. I think he's overrated and no better than a #4 or 5 starter regardless of where he goes.There were at least 15 teams that could have used him at #3 or higher last year--nine in the N.L. alone. A presence like his could have turned the fortunes for a team like the Rangers or even Baltimore. The problem with Sox fans is that they forget that MLB is made up of 30 teams. Hell, even the Dodgers could have used his arm. And he still had a better year than Matt Clement and gave up less than Wakefield. As much as I love the man, the most overrated pitcher in a Sox uni is Wake. He strikes out a fair share, but then gives back by leading the team in HRs year after year. At least Bronson came cheap.

[SoxSon]

What causes some fans to be concerned, guys, isn't whether this trade makes sense on paper. It's whether this trade is the right thing to do to a pitcher who has clearly devoted himself, personally and financially, to Boston. Granted, right and wrong have become somewhat antiquated notions in baseball.

I completely agree with those who see this as a good tactical move for Boston. As many of you are aware, our very own David Ortiz is quoted as saying that Pena has more power in his swing than anyone in baseball, including himself. That's quite a potential upside. Throw in the deteriorating physical health of Trot and our excess of starting pitching, and you've got somewhat of an obvious move on paper. But again, that's on paper.

Would I have made this same trade? Yes, I think I would have. But I'm concerned even about my own impulses when they ignore what most of us say we value in a player: dedication, loyalty, work ethic. Being a fan of the game has made me a fan of the players, and I can't help that. If numbers are the sole reason behind bringing together a certain group of players to construct a certain type of team, perhaps we ought to simulate baseball on a computer and leave the humanity out of it.

I'm just tossing out ideas here. Again, the trade does make sense...I'm just not sure it's right. I'm also not sure whether there's much "right" left in professional sports, and I'm doubly unsure of whether I'm going to be able to hold on to any sense of "right" myself in the future when it comes to baseball, seeing how the "rightness" of statistical justification has flowed so overwhelmingly from management to fans.

[efin98]

There were at least 15 teams that could have used him at #3 or higher last year--nine in the N.L. alone. A presence like his could have turned the fortunes for a team like the Rangers or even Baltimore.

I understand where you are coming form but I'm calling you on this- name those teams that you claim he would be at least a #3 starter. And I'll add this- factor in this year's projected starters as well since last year and this year are two completely different years.

And of those teams, I'll bet that just having him will not turn them around. They also have other needs that are overlooked like a solid outfielder or a powerful bat. Or it's the front office's apathetic attitude towards building a contender rather than a money money. Or it's the fans themselves who stay away from games instead of supporting the team.

One man does not a whole team make. One guy won't make or break a team. He may feed off of what is already there and he may have the best years of his career in a new place but he won't make or break a team.

The problem with Sox fans is that they forget that MLB is made up of 30 teams. Hell, even the Dodgers could have used his arm. And he still had a better year than Matt Clement and gave up less than Wakefield.

He had just about the same year as Wakefield with fairly even numbers across the board. Clement gave up 21 less hits in 14 fewer innings with 46 more Ks and 14 more BBs. He didn't have a better year than either of them, he had an average year alongside two other average pitchers.

As much as I love the man, the most overrated pitcher in a Sox uni is Wake. He strikes out a fair share, but then gives back by leading the team in HRs year after year. At least Bronson came cheap.

He's overrated but he's earned his reputation. He gave up the most HRs last year for pitchers at 35, true. Howeve it's the highest he's placed in his career. His previous high was 5th in the league. He's at least versatile enough and WILLING to pitch out of the bullpen and off of the mound.

[DoubleX]

What causes some fans to be concerned, guys, isn't whether this trade makes sense on paper. It's whether this trade is the right thing to do to a pitcher who has clearly devoted himself, personally and financially, to Boston. Granted, right and wrong have become somewhat antiquated notions in baseball.

I completely agree with those who see this as a good tactical move for Boston. As many of you are aware, our very own David Ortiz is quoted as saying that Pena has more power in his swing than anyone in baseball, including himself. That's quite a potential upside. Throw in the deteriorating physical health of Trot and our excess of starting pitching, and you've got somewhat of an obvious move on paper. But again, that's on paper.

Would I have made this same trade? Yes, I think I would have. But I'm concerned even about my own impulses when they ignore what most of us say we value in a player: dedication, loyalty, work ethic. Being a fan of the game has made me a fan of the players, and I can't help that. If numbers are the sole reason behind bringing together a certain group of players to construct a certain type of team, perhaps we ought to simulate baseball on a computer and leave the humanity out of it.

I'm just tossing out ideas here. Again, the trade does make sense...I'm just not sure it's right. I'm also not sure whether there's much "right" left in professional sports, and I'm doubly unsure of whether I'm going to be able to hold on to any sense of "right" myself in the future when it comes to baseball, seeing how the "rightness" of statistical justification has flowed so overwhelmingly from management to fans.

I think that right there is why a fan would not make a good GM. I think it's impressive that Theo can put aside his intense Red Sox fandom and make the hard decisions for the good of the team. At the end of the day, fans are fans of the team first and foremost, and if the team is winning, the fans will be happy and embrace the new players. It might be sad in some ways, but that's just how baseball is - winning is first and foremost important, and there are casualties in pursuit of winning. Look at the Astros in how eager they are to cut ties with Jeff Bagwell. Bagwell has earned his keep there, but the smart baseball decision is to let him go. That's not to say sentimentality never factors in; if the situation allows for sentimentality then a player might be retained. I believe the Yankees just did this with Bernie Williams even though they may have been able to find someone better out there. Of course, Bernie is only asked to be a role player, so there is less harm in being sentimental. Bagwell on the other hand, is a matter of like 18 million.

[SoxSon]

I think that right there is why a fan would not make a good GM. I think it's impressive that Theo can put aside his intense Red Sox fandom and make the hard decisions for the good of the team. At the end of the day, fans are fans of the team first and foremost, and if the team is winning, the fans will be happy and embrace the new players. It might be sad in some ways, but that's just how baseball is - winning is first and foremost important, and there are casualties in pursuit of winning. Look at the Astros in how eager they are to cut ties with Jeff Bagwell. Bagwell has earned his keep there, but the smart baseball decision is to let him go. That's not to say sentimentality never factors in; if the situation allows for sentimentality then a player might be retained. I believe the Yankees just did this with Bernie Williams even though they may have been able to find someone better out there. Of course, Bernie is only asked to be a role player, so there is less harm in being sentimental. Bagwell on the other hand, is a matter of like 18 million.

First off, as I said, I most likely would have gone through with this trade myself, as I suspect the majority of Red Sox Nation would, if pressed.

In this case, though, I don't think it's a matter of fans making bad GM's so much as it's a matter of GM's making really bad fans. I don't think "impressive" is the word I'd use with Theo here as a GM, since many of us agree that this is somewhat of a clearcut trade on paper; I also don't think "impressive" is the word I'd use with Theo as a fan, because in my mind this deal lacks a certain level of integrity. It's important to consider why we all do what we do, beyond financial gain, and winning in baseball has clearly become solely about the potential revenue it brings. I understand the realities of business, and it's always possible to cry that's just the way it is, but I also make demands on myself to remember that everything we do is in a larger context. That's the basis of my discussion.

[hellborn]

Don't forget that Papelbon was poised to move ahead of Arroyo as well. A full season as a spot-starter and long reliever would really depress Arroyo's value, particularly if his spring troubles continued into the season.

If I'm a Sox fan, I really like this trade. The Sox are lot a stronger and deeper team, IMO.

XX, love all your posts here. You just make a ton of freakin sense.
One thing I'd like to point out to all the people who are all over Pena for having a .248 career average...he was 23 last season, coming off hitting 26 HR in 336 AB at 22. He took a small step back as a hitter, but still slugged almost .500. At 23, Nixon had 4 career AB, and he didn't establish himself as a quality ML hitter until age 25. And, Nixon's OPS at 25 was lower than Pena's at 22.
Bosox pick up a guy who had over 50 career HR before he turned 24 for a pitcher whose K/9 plummeted to 4.4 in his second full year as a starter...you know, there are things I like about Arroyo as a pitcher, but I think that this might be a total steal, could end up looking like Brock for Broglio in time.

[DoubleX]

First off, as I said, I most likely would have gone through with this trade myself, as I suspect the majority of Red Sox Nation would, if pressed.

In this case, though, I don't think it's a matter of fans making bad GM's so much as it's a matter of GM's making really bad fans. I don't think "impressive" is the word I'd use with Theo here as a GM, since many of us agree that this is somewhat of a clearcut trade on paper; I also don't think "impressive" is the word I'd use with Theo as a fan, because in my mind this deal lacks a certain level of integrity. It's important to consider why we all do what we do, beyond financial gain, and winning in baseball has clearly become solely about the potential revenue it brings. I understand the realities of business, and it's always possible to cry that's just the way it is, but I also make demands on myself to remember that everything we do is in a larger context. That's the basis of my discussion.

Soxson, my apologies if I came across wrong, but I wasn't meaning to attack or criticize your post. I only meant to point out that a GM can't be a fan, and that Theo, growing up as a big Red Sox fan, a breed that is exceptionally loyal and passionate, should be commended for being able to see past those fan sentimentalities and look at the bigger picture. As for Theo lacking integrity because of this deal, I don't believe he was the one who made the assurances to Arroyo. I don't believe Theo went back on his word. If he was around earlier in the offseason, he probably wouldn't have made such assurances because he knows that Arroyo has good trade value right now and that such value could come in handy. IMO, Theo is a very good GM who understands the big picture, who understands the value of his players, who understands that tough, business decisions have to be made, and understands how to address weak spots by trading from positions of strength. Does he make mistakes? Sure, but all GMs do; just like the game, no one can bat 1.000. But since he's come back, every move the Sox have made seems to make good sense, especially compared to some of the moves (and non-moves) the team was making during his absence. I'm sure the Sox would have had an even better offseason had Theo been there all along and not had to scramble to find such important pieces as a SS and CF. The moves Theo has made since coming back have made the team a much stronger club.

[DoubleX]

XX, love all your posts here. You just make a ton of freakin sense.
One thing I'd like to point out to all the people who are all over Pena for having a .248 career average...he was 23 last season, coming off hitting 26 HR in 336 AB at 22. He took a small step back as a hitter, but still slugged almost .500. At 23, Nixon had 4 career AB, and he didn't establish himself as a quality ML hitter until age 25. And, Nixon's OPS at 25 was lower than Pena's at 22.
Bosox pick up a guy who had over 50 career HR before he turned 24 for a pitcher whose K/9 plummeted to 4.4 in his second full year as a starter...you know, there are things I like about Arroyo as a pitcher, but I think that this might be a total steal, could end up looking like Brock for Broglio in time.

Thanks, and I'm not even a Sox fan. :)

Also, as a pointed out earlier, not only does Pena have potential going for him, but he can hit lefties much, much better than Nixon. There really is absolutely no reason for Nixon to play again against lefties now. Pena's career average against lefties is almost 70 points higher than Nixon's abysmal .215, Pena has almost twice as many homeruns than Nixon against lefties (19 to 10) in almost half the at bats, and Pena's OPS against lefties is more than 200 points higher than Nixon's anemic .632.

[SoxSon]

Soxson, my apologies if I came across wrong, but I wasn't meaning to attack or criticize your post. I only meant to point out that a GM can't be a fan, and that Theo, growing up as a big Red Sox fan, a breed that is exceptionally loyal and passionate, should be commended for being able to see past those fan sentimentalities and look at the bigger picture. As for Theo lacking integrity because of this deal, I don't believe he was the one who made the assurances to Arroyo. I don't believe Theo went back on his word. If he was around earlier in the offseason, he probably wouldn't have made such assurances because he knows that Arroyo has good trade value right now and that such value could come in handy. IMO, Theo is a very good GM who understands the big picture, who understands the value of his players, who understands that tough, business decisions have to be made, and understands how to address weak spots by trading from positions of strength. Does he make mistakes? Sure, but all GMs do; just like the game, no one can bat 1.000. But since he's come back, every move the Sox have made seems to make good sense, especially compared to some of the moves (and non-moves) the team was making during his absence. I'm sure the Sox would have had an even better offseason had Theo been there all along and not had to scramble to find such important pieces as a SS and CF. The moves Theo has made since coming back have made the team a much stronger club.


Gotcha, XX. :)
(Also, I said the deal lacked a certain level of integrity. But you're right, the implication in my post is that Theo did, too. I think he did.)

[FlashGordon]

I understand where you are coming form but I'm calling you on this- name those teams that you claim he would be at least a #3 starter. And I'll add this- factor in this year's projected starters as well since last year and this year are two completely different years.I also understand where you are coming from, but adding additional caveats that project into this year is where you and I differ in our assessment of Arroyo. Flip a coin and you'll have about as good a chance of predicting how any pitcher in the rotation will do. Clement, for example, really is a much better pitcher, but his bad luck last year with that nasty come-backer played right into the odds that he would start strong and finish weak. Sure the projections were right, but possibly for the wrong reasons. Arroyo can be projected to make at least 20 quality starts and to stay off the DL. That's why I think most teams would like to have someone like him 3rd.

And of those teams, I'll bet that just having him will not turn them around. They also have other needs that are overlooked like a solid outfielder or a powerful bat. Or it's the front office's apathetic attitude towards building a contender rather than a money money. Or it's the fans themselves who stay away from games instead of supporting the team.Again, this is speculation based on a number of unknowns, many of which are subject to personal opinion. Texas, for example, has some talented hitters but a shaky rotation that doesn't go too deep. How might they have faired if they had just one more pitcher capable of winning at least 10? How about Baltimore (two of the 15). And realize that we're crossing points here. I've argued that at least 15 teams (1/2 of MLB) would be likely to put him at least 3rd. Admittedly, some of those teams really suck, but that challenges your claim that "anywhere he goes" he's no better than 4th. The follow up point is that of the teams that would place Bronson 3rd or higher, his presence in the rotation could be that added extra to get some of them over the .500 hump and into playoff contention (e.g. Tex and Bal).

One man does not a whole team make. One guy won't make or break a team. He may feed off of what is already there and he may have the best years of his career in a new place but he won't make or break a team.I admit that there are teams like Milwaukee or Oakland that need something other than another young arm, so please don't think I'm touting his arrival as Pedro Martinez walking into Fenway Park. Considering the Mets had him last year and still finished with a losing record, it goes to show that one pitcher doesn't necessarily mean a fresh new breeze coming through the door. I merely stated two separate facts: Bronson Arroyo could easily be placed among the top 3 of about 1/2 of MLB rosters AND that among those teams, his presence could be the stabilizing factor in some very thin rotations.

He had just about the same year as Wakefield with fairly even numbers across the board. Clement gave up 21 less hits in 14 fewer innings with 46 more Ks and 14 more BBs. He didn't have a better year than either of them, he had an average year alongside two other average pitchers.I made that comparison for 2 reasons. The first was that Clement was our #1 starter who finished more comparable to our #4. The second was ERA, which for Clement was 4.57 and for Arroyo 4.51, despite the fact that Arroyo pitched more innings. That latter point was to deflect your argument that he only had 14 wins because of a great deal of run support. ERA belies that. Also, 21 fewer hits in 14 fewer innings doesn't really mean all that much, especially when coupled with 14 more BBs.

He's (Wakefield) overrated but he's earned his reputation. He gave up the most HRs last year for pitchers at 35, true. Howeve it's the highest he's placed in his career. His previous high was 5th in the league. He's at least versatile enough and WILLING to pitch out of the bullpen and off of the mound.I love Wakefield. But he is also the leader in HRs allowed in Red Sox team history.

[efin98]

I also understand where you are coming from, but adding additional caveats that project into this year is where you and I differ in our assessment of Arroyo. Flip a coin and you'll have about as good a chance of predicting how any pitcher in the rotation will do. Clement, for example, really is a much better pitcher, but his bad luck last year with that nasty come-backer played right into the odds that he would start strong and finish weak. Sure the projections were right, but possibly for the wrong reasons. Arroyo can be projected to make at least 20 quality starts and to stay off the DL. That's why I think most teams would like to have someone like him 3rd.

Again, this is speculation based on a number of unknowns, many of which are subject to personal opinion. Texas, for example, has some talented hitters but a shaky rotation that doesn't go too deep. How might they have faired if they had just one more pitcher capable of winning at least 10? How about Baltimore (two of the 15). And realize that we're crossing points here. I've argued that at least 15 teams (1/2 of MLB) would be likely to put him at least 3rd. Admittedly, some of those teams really suck, but that challenges your claim that "anywhere he goes" he's no better than 4th. The follow up point is that of the teams that would place Bronson 3rd or higher, his presence in the rotation could be that added extra to get some of them over the .500 hump and into playoff contention (e.g. Tex and Bal). I admit that there are teams like Milwaukee or Oakland that need something other than another young arm, so please don't think I'm touting his arrival as Pedro Martinez walking into Fenway Park. Considering the Mets had him last year and still finished with a losing record, it goes to show that one pitcher doesn't necessarily mean a fresh new breeze coming through the door. I merely stated two separate facts: Bronson Arroyo could easily be placed among the top 3 of about 1/2 of MLB rosters AND that among those teams, his presence could be the stabilizing factor in some very thin rotations.

Baltimore needed bullpen help more than a starter. Washington needs not only another solid pitcher, but a few heavy hitters as well. Seattle needs better management and veterans who have won elsewhere. Pittsburgh needs a few new guys who can both field and hit but are also young and inexpensive. Tampa Bay needed new ownership. Toronto needed a closer and a big bat. Detroit needed at least three solid players in addition to their pitching. Kansas City needs new pitching and coaching. The Cubs need health, the X factor in players that I think is overlooked. Same with Los Angelas and San Fransisco. Arizona needs veterans who know how to bring back that winning spirit they had in 2001.

That's 15 teams, all of which have more than one piece missing that Arroyo would not entirely fill but will at least help up the win totals.

We have different peceptions of him as a player(you believe he is better than shown, I think he's worse) but we agree at least that he will have a positive impact. That at least says something about him as a pitcher and as a player.



I made that comparison for 2 reasons. The first was that Clement was our #1 starter who finished more comparable to our #4. The second was ERA, which for Clement was 4.57 and for Arroyo 4.51, despite the fact that Arroyo pitched more innings. That latter point was to deflect your argument that he only had 14 wins because of a great deal of run support. ERA belies that.

They aren't much different was what I said. He wasn't better nor was he much worse than either of them

Also, 21 fewer hits in 14 fewer innings doesn't really mean all that much, especially when coupled with 14 more BBs.

It counts against his hits per 9IP. The BBs count against his WHIP, however it's not much higher than the other on

I love Wakefield. But he is also the leader in HRs allowed in Red Sox team history.

He has also been on the team for 11 years, stats add up especially career stats. He is also third on the Innings Pitched, Ks, and Wins and second on the career Losses list(moving up to first with a 2nd loss this year). He is still good despite allowing those home runs. His versatility is too valuable to let go of.

[DoubleX]

He has also been on the team for 11 years, stats add up especially career stats. He is also third on the Innings Pitched, Ks, and Wins and second on the career Losses list(moving up to first with a 2nd loss this year). He is still good despite allowing those home runs. His versatility is too valuable to let go of.

Not to mention that he's a knuckleballer. When those knuckleballs aren't knuckling right, which happens even for the most skilled knuckleballers, those pitches stay up in zone and look real juicy to hitters.

[FlashGordon]

They aren't much different was what I said. He wasn't better nor was he much worse than either of them.And you've completely side-stepped my point. Clement was our #1 starter. Bronson's were comparable (perhaps better by some counts) despite being #4. That flies entirely in the face of your claim that he couldn't crack the top 3, except for the worst teams.

One more thing, I don't want anyone to think I'm Wakefield-bashing. He is a useful tool to have in the shed, even if the knuckler can be a fickle mistress. Still, he does meet the criteria of over-rated. I've heard all kinds of appraisals that have had him as our #3 or #2 starter. At one point last year, people were carelessly tossing around the label "ace". I wonder how many more fans would have cried foul if Wakefield had been dealt.

[Mike D.]

Not really on topic, but interesting to note - both Wakefield and Arroyo were drafted by the Pittsburgh Pirates and given up for dead by the team (Wakefield was released, Arroyo put on waivers) before being picked up by Boston.

I guess Boston fans owe a bit of their World Championship to the poor management over in Pittsburgh.

[DoubleX]

And you've completely side-stepped my point. Clement was our #1 starter. Bronson's were comparable (perhaps better by some counts) despite being #4. That flies entirely in the face of your claim that he couldn't crack the top 3, except for the worst teams.

One more thing, I don't want anyone to think I'm Wakefield-bashing. He is a useful tool to have in the shed, even if the knuckler can be a fickle mistress. Still, he does meet the criteria of over-rated. I've heard all kinds of appraisals that have had him as our #3 or #2 starter. At one point last year, people were carelessly tossing around the label "ace". I wonder how many more fans would have cried foul if Wakefield had been dealt.

You're probably right about Wakefield being overrated. But he's very consistent, his ties with the team go back to '95 (when he finished 3rd in the Cy Young race), and he's a quirky pitcher in that he's pretty much the only pure knuckleballer in the game today. Putting all those things together with the fact that he's on the Red Sox kind of naturally results in him being overhyped. It's the Boston/New York effect. If he was playing for like the Reds or Royals, he'd probably just be considered some journeymen starting pitcher that's steady. Still, it's neat to have a knuckleballer on the staff. Never quite know what you'll get. :)

[Mattingly]

Speaking of Wake, which other pitches does he throw? Also, how long's he been a knuckleballer?

I think that with the Niekro brothers (Phil & Joe), they'd done this to extend their pitching careers.

[RedSoxVT92]

Speaking of Wake, which other pitches does he throw? Also, how long's he been a knuckleballer?

I think that with the Niekro brothers (Phil & Joe), they'd done this to extend their pitching careers.

He throws a pretty slow fastball and a curveball. I believe he has been a knuckleballer for his whole career. Although he first was a first baseman in the minors in the very begining of his proffesinol career.

[efin98]

And you've completely side-stepped my point. Clement was our #1 starter. Bronson's were comparable (perhaps better by some counts) despite being #4. That flies entirely in the face of your claim that he couldn't crack the top 3, except for the worst teams.

Comparable to two others stated, but really three others doesn't help his case. Not when he was the fourth man in the rotation. Not when he has few years to compare to. The other guys can point to their past success or failures and say "it was an improvement" or "it was a down year". Arroyo really can't, not with only one complete year as a starter.

He was 3rd in wins, 2nd in IP, 3rd in ERA, 2nd in losses, 2nd in hits allowed, 1st in runs, 2nd in HRs, 4th in Ks, 2nd in BBs, 2nd in HBP.

Overall he was the 3rd best pitcher on the staff at the 4th or 5th spot in the rotation. On any other team he wouldn't be the 3rd guy, not with those numbers. Sorry, but that's at least a 4th or 5th starter to me.

One more thing, I don't want anyone to think I'm Wakefield-bashing. He is a useful tool to have in the shed, even if the knuckler can be a fickle mistress. Still, he does meet the criteria of over-rated. I've heard all kinds of appraisals that have had him as our #3 or #2 starter.

It depends on where your view his value and how high up on your roster you place that value. To me he is one of the most important pitchers on the staff. Only Schilling and Wells have better success over their careers as starters and only Timlin have hasbetter success as relievers with Boston. The fact that he can close games(22 in his career, one time closer), be a spot starter, a long reliever, a regular reliever, and a full time starter is something that the team has to keep. That skill may be overrated to some, but I think tha verstatility is too much of a good thing to not have...not with their bullpen woes two of the past three years.

At one point last year, people were carelessly tossing around the label "ace". I wonder how many more fans would have cried foul if Wakefield had been dealt.

I don't believe I called him that at all last year and those that did I believe it was due to his consistancy last year while the other pitchers had their struggles. He isn't the ace but he was the anchor in the rotation.

[SoxSon]

I don't believe I called him that at all last year and those that did I believe it was due to his consistancy last year while the other pitchers had their struggles. He isn't the ace but he was the anchor in the rotation.

You beat me to this, efin. As I recollect, the term "ace" was used last year with Wake as a kind of unfortunate comment on our pitching staff as a whole, not as a reflection of his individual potency.

[DoubleX]

Speaking of Wake, which other pitches does he throw? Also, how long's he been a knuckleballer?

I think that with the Niekro brothers (Phil & Joe), they'd done this to extend their pitching careers.

I believe Phil was throwing the knuckleball since very early in his career, I don't know about Joe though.

[SoxSon]

I believe Phil was throwing the knuckleball since very early in his career, I don't know about Joe though.

I don't believe Joe really perfected his knuckleball until he was with Atlanta, so he must have had 5 or 6 years in the majors without it.

[Mariano_Rivera]

I`m knew hi I know I spelled foulke wrong ( probably because I`m a diehard Yankees fan but not a Bosox hater) but I`ve been wondering how these two players are going to come back schilling did horrible last year and foulke missed most of the year

[Mariano_Rivera]

Hi I`m new I`m a diehard Yankee fan but not a Boston hater and I`ve been wondering how will Schilling and Foulke do Foulke missed out most of the year and when he was pitching he wasn`t great and schillng though he had some great games against New York he was VERY inconsistent

[SoxSon]

Hi I`m new I`m a diehard Yankee fan but not a Boston hater and I`ve been wondering how will Schilling and Foulke do Foulke missed out most of the year and when he was pitching he wasn`t great and schillng though he had some great games against New York he was VERY inconsistent


Schilling seems pretty sharp this Spring. His velocity is up, he's had time to get in shape for the season, and he seems to have his focus. He seems to me like the kind of older pitcher who could bounce back reasonably this season.
Foulke, on the other hand...well, I'll buy that when he's still pitching in May.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Schilling seems pretty sharp this Spring. His velocity is up, he's had time to get in shape for the season, and he seems to have his focus. He seems to me like the kind of older pitcher who could bounce back reasonably this season.
Foulke, on the other hand...well, I'll buy that when he's still pitching in May.

their is a lot of questions about the lineup questions but not really problems how will Beckett handle the media for example also I don`t put much stock in Spring Training especially this year with half of the star players in the league of at the WBC so all the pitchers look sharp

[Mariano_Rivera]

personally I think bostons biggest strength ois their seto man who is one of the best in the league not to mention the 1-2 combo of ortiz and ramirez

[SoxSon]

their is a lot of questions about the lineup questions but not really problems how will Beckett handle the media for example also I don`t put much stock in Spring Training especially this year with half of the star players in the league of at the WBC so all the pitchers look sharp

I'm more concerned about Beckett's blisters than the media.
Also, Schilling's velocity can tell you a lot. That's got nothing to do with who is at the plate.

[Mariano_Rivera]

true i have`nt whatched their gmes much

[pesky6]

Well, I just got back from vacation and happened to read all of the posts from this thread. . . there are a lot of good points, and I wanted to chime in with some of my own--

With regards to the loyalty card, just because someone says they want to stay with Boston doesn't mean we should just keep them around. The idea is to improve the club. None of us knows if picking up Wily Mo Pena will do it, but let's be honest--Arroyo wasn't exactly lighting it up around here. I too have an adoration for the 2004 team, but that was almost a year and a half ago. If we want to remain contenders, we have to give up on the loyalty thing. Sure, Arroyo loved it in Boston--he had built a similar iconic status like that certiain CF in New York did, and he was adored by fans, but that's not a reason to keep someone around.

A lot of people have asked, "Why didn't we trade Wells or Clement?" Wells has made it perfectly clear that he wanted to go to the west coast and no where else, so that wouldn't have happened. Clement wouldn't have worked out, either. Remember, we're paying the salary difference in Arroyo's contract--imagine if, with the big salary we're paying Clement, we had to pay the difference in his salary? That wouldn't have made any sense, either. It's bad enough that we had to with Renteria's.

In Trot Nixon's case, I hope people can see that, at 24, Pena has a much bigger upside than Nixon, at 32. Hey, I love the guy, too, but as much as I admire Trot's hustle and work ethic, he's been way too injury-prone these last few years. I think Pena (or Crisp) would be a suitable replacement in the OF.

As far as Theo goes, of the transactions that didn't pan out, are the players we gave up doing any better in their new surroundings? Hillenbrand is ok, but I'd rather have Youks at 3rd. Sanchez has been solid, and I'd probably want to see him as our everyday 2B, but hindsight is 20/20. Considering how demanding the Red Sox must be as an organization and considering how young Theo still is, I think he's done a great job as our GM.

[Mariano_Rivera]

with the trade of Arroyo Boston goes from 7 pitchers to 6 and their is speculation of Papelbon being their closer which brings them down to 5 not to mention that shilling is questionable and so is clement Wells is also getting older

[SoxSon]

With regards to the loyalty card, just because someone says they want to stay with Boston doesn't mean we should just keep them around.

Things are slightly complicated, pesky, by the perception that Boston suggested that they'd like to keep Arroyo around, too. I agree...we have to do what's best for the team. But I also think the way the deal went down lacked integrity.

[FlashGordon]

Bronson pitched 7 innings of 3-hit ball vs. the Red Sox in the last Red Sox pre-season game (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/03/30/reds_4_red_sox_0/). Yes, we will see where things stand at the ASB.