Matt Cain

[SoxSon]

I'd like to know anything and everything you guys can tell me about this young pitcher. He's got some hype coming into the season. :)

[KHenry14]

I'd like to know anything and everything you guys can tell me about this young pitcher. He's got some hype coming into the season. :)


First things first...YOU CAN'T HAVE HIM. He's ours!! :laugh

Hype is one thing, but this is one time you can believe the hype. He's the real deal in every sense.

KH14

[SoxSon]

First things first...YOU CAN'T HAVE HIM. He's ours!! :laugh

Hype is one thing, but this is one time you can believe the hype. He's the real deal in every sense.

KH14


You figured me out that quicky, eh? :D
Actually, Boston has a surplus of starters right now, though you can probably have a couple for Cain, if you ask nicely.

I know I could read about Cain, but I'd rather hear from those who have watched him. Is he a strikeout guy? What makes him the "real deal"? What are his pitches? Flyball/grounder pitcher? You guys get the idea. Thanks.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

First things first...YOU CAN'T HAVE HIM. He's ours!! :laugh

Hype is one thing, but this is one time you can believe the hype. He's the real deal in every sense.

KH14
Solomon Torrez, Jessie Foppert, Kurt Ainsworth, Jerome Williams, Atlee Hammecker...:(

[KHenry14]

Solomon Torrez, Jessie Foppert, Kurt Ainsworth, Jerome Williams, Atlee Hammecker...:(

LOL, you are sort of a glass is half empty kinda guy Wags!


Truth be told, young pitchers can be brillant and then self destruct in a matter of seconds. Those you named all fall into that category. But who's to say that Cain will follow in those footsteps?

KH14

[Honus Wagner Rules]

LOL, you are sort of a glass is half empty kinda guy Wags!


Truth be told, young pitchers can be brillant and then self destruct in a matter of seconds. Those you named all fall into that category. But who's to say that Cain will follow in those footsteps?

KH14
Because the Giants have a zero track record for developing young starting pitchers. At this point it's obvious that there is a major problem with the Giants' player development system. Other than Russ Ortiz, what other pitcher have the Giants developed in the recent past.

[KHenry14]

Obviously I can't argue that, but I don't think that just because of the sins of the past that this will impact those people who are coming up now. Besides, Lowry is shaping up quite nicely, and we've seen good things from Hennessey as well.

I can understand your scepticism, but I do see a lot of signs that the farm system is finally starting to turn things around. But promise and potential don't mean anything until the results show up on the field. But I'm optimistic.

Lets revisit this conversation in 2008 and see where we are then.

KH14

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Obviously I can't argue that, but I don't think that just because of the sins of the past that this will impact those people who are coming up now. Besides, Lowry is shaping up quite nicely, and we've seen good things from Hennessey as well.

I can understand your scepticism, but I do see a lot of signs that the farm system is finally starting to turn things around. But promise and potential don't mean anything until the results show up on the field. But I'm optimistic.

Lets revisit this conversation in 2008 and see where we are then.

KH14
Yes, Lowry and Hennessey seem to have some potential. but are they potential 12-14 wins guys (like Reuter) or 20 win type pitchers? I dunno, it's too early to tell.

[SoxSon]

Now I got something going! ;) :D

[KHenry14]

Yes, Lowry and Hennessey seem to have some potential. but are they potential 12-14 wins guys (like Reuter) or 20 win type pitchers? I dunno, it's too early to tell.

At this point, I think Hennessey can be a Jeff Weaver type 14 win guy. I have hopes that Lowry can do better than that, upwards of an 18 win guy.

KH14

[west coast orange and black]

you tell him, ken!
c'mon, wags, hammaker? you really wanna go all the way back to the '83 all-star game?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

you tell him, ken!
c'mon, wags, hammaker? you really wanna go all the way back to the '83 all-star game?

:laugh

No, my point is that since I've been watching the Giants (1978) they have not developed a single superstar pitcher. Not one! And it's not because they haven't had some awesome prospects. In the early 1980s and in the past few years then had many highly regarded pitching prospects. It's a major flaw in the Giant's player development system. When guys like Foppert, Ainsworth, Williams, Hammacker, Kelly Downs, Solomon Torres, William Van Landingham, Jeff Robinson, Scott Garrelts, Terry Mullholland, Trevor Wilson, Pat Rapp, Shawn Estes, etc, don't develop what does that tell you about the Giants' player development system? What happened to Shawn Estes? This guy was 19-5 and an All-Star at age 24. It went all downhill after that. :grouchy

[west coast orange and black]

wags: What happened to Shawn Estes? This guy was 19-5 and an All-Star at age 24. It went all downhill after that.

it's dick pole's fault.:grouchy

[KHenry14]

:laugh

When guys like Foppert, Ainsworth, Williams, Hammacker, Kelly Downs, Soloon Torres, William Van Landingham, Jeff Robinson, Scott Garrelts, Terry Mullholland, Trevor Wilson, Pat Rapp, Shawn Estes, etc, don't develop what does that tell you about the Giants' player development system? What happened to Shawn Estes? This guy was 19-5 and an All-Star at age 24. It went all downhill after that. :grouchy


I think part of this equation is that most of the guys you mention weren't going to be a superstar even if they had Leo Mazzone for a PC. A few were close, Garrelts had talent, and so did Hammaker and Estes. But some of those guys did as well as their talent was going to let them, like Jeff Robinson and Kelly Downs. More importantly, I think this indicts the drafting of the players as well as the coaching. That appears to be changing some as we are seeing a lot of good young arms come up, but as we've said previously, we will have to wait till 2008 to see if Sabean has kept the right people.

KH14

[west coast orange and black]

1993 ushered in a new era.

2008 will be the start of the next one, right, ken.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think part of this equation is that most of the guys you mention weren't going to be a superstar even if they had Leo Mazzone for a PC. A few were close, Garrelts had talent, and so did Hammaker and Estes. But some of those guys did as well as their talent was going to let them, like Jeff Robinson and Kelly Downs. More importantly, I think this indicts the drafting of the players as well as the coaching. That appears to be changing some as we are seeing a lot of good young arms come up, but as we've said previously, we will have to wait till 2008 to see if Sabean has kept the right people.

KH14

That may have been true for some of the players I listed. But it's easy to say after-the-fact that some of these prospects never had great talent when they failed to produce. But I know for a fact that Downs was considered a Cy Young candidate by a major baseball publication (I think it was the Sporting in beleive the late 80s). And what happened to Salomon Torres is still puzzling to me. He was downright nasty in he minor leagues. He was always amongst he youngest players in his league. As a 21 year old he played in the Texas League and the PCL as a 21 year old.

TL: 7-4, 2.70 ERA, 7.24 K/9, .95 WHIP
PCL: 7-4. 3.50 ERA, 8.46 K/9, 1.25 WHIP

For a 21 year old to perform that well at triple-A is impressive. I do seem to remember that Torres had some "lack of maturity" issues with the Giants.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The reason I'm hesitant to jump on the Matt Cain bandwagon was what happened to Ainsworth, Foppert, and Williams. They were supposed to be the Giants' future. And I'm still very sore about it. I know I sound negative but I'm just waiting around for Cain to either blow out his arm or get traded to aquire some 40 year "veteran leader" that was once a good player 10 years ago and the Giants will brag about him being a "winner". Hmmm, that seems to describe Steve Finley. :grouchy

[Honus Wagner Rules]

The key question is will the Giants management have the patience to go through a few 90-95 loss seasons to allow the young pitching prospects develop?

[KHenry14]

The key question is will the Giants management have the patience to go through a few 90-95 loss seasons to allow the young pitching prospects develop?


You see, I don't think we are going to be that bad after Barry and the other elder statesmen leave. We free up a ton of money in salary, and Magowan is on record saying that they will spend it. Whether he will is another story. What I see if things go the way I hope is that the team will have a #1 in Cain, a #2 in Lowry, and a #4-5 in Hennessey. And with a potential closer in Valdez, plus some good arms in the pen, I think the pitching will be fine. The question becomes whether guys like Frandsen, Lewis, Chavez etc. will pan out, and I think that's more problematic. But with decent pitching the team can be competitive even if they aren't that strong on the field.

Add in decent FA pickups, and who knows how the team will fare?

KH14

[KHenry14]

The reason I'm hesitant to jump on the Matt Cain bandwagon was what happened to Ainsworth, Foppert, and Williams. They were supposed to be the Giants' future. And I'm still very sore about it. I know I sound negative but I'm just waiting around for Cain to either blow out his arm or get traded to aquire some 40 year "veteran leader" that was once a good player 10 years ago and the Giants will brag about him being a "winner". Hmmm, that seems to describe Steve Finley. :grouchy

You have a point about those guys, I think the Giants brass is surprised they didn't work out. The good news is that GM's have been after Sabes to trade Cain for a while and he hasn't done it, probably because his potential is better than all of those guys.

The one that disapointed me was Aardsma. I was sure he was the team's closer of the future, sad that it didn't work out. :(

BTW, are you disapointed in the Finley/Fonzie trade? I'm not. It gives the team potentially a solid stick and very good defense. Fonzie gave us neither.

KH14

[west coast orange and black]

although he is managing partner, peter magowanf rom time to time has had his hands tied.
most famously, having to let will clark walk. :grouchy

giants ownership votes on the budget, and how the money will be spent.
as ken stated, after bonds is no longer with the giants, and a few other older players retire/move on, there is gonna be a substantial amount of money already appropriated and ready to be spent.

i also agree with ken's take on giants' pitching - that it will be in good shape.

remember how the giants shocked baseball when they signed bonds as the game's highest-paid player? i look for a very significant signing for the 2008 season with the *bonds money*.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

You have a point about those guys, I think the Giants brass is surprised they didn't work out. The good news is that GM's have been after Sabes to trade Cain for a while and he hasn't done it, probably because his potential is better than all of those guys.

The one that disapointed me was Aardsma. I was sure he was the team's closer of the future, sad that it didn't work out. :(

BTW, are you disapointed in the Finley/Fonzie trade? I'm not. It gives the team potentially a solid stick and very good defense. Fonzie gave us neither.

KH14
What happened to Aardsma? Why did they trade him way so soon? The Giants didn't even give him a chance to develop. As for Finely, yes, for one point of view he is an improvement over Alfonso. On the other hand Finley is 40 years and he did hit .219 last year. Why do the Giants expect a 40 year old player to rebound greatly after hitting .219 as a 39 year old? I'm sure Finley will hit better this year but how much better? .240? .250? .260? Anything less than .280 with 20-25 Hrs, and a .380 OBP is not worth it. Why do the Giants insist of having an outfield entirely of 40 year olds? That make no sense.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

although he is managing partner, peter magowanf rom time to time has had his hands tied.
most famously, having to let will clark walk. :grouchy

giants ownership votes on the budget, and how the money will be spent.
as ken stated, after bonds is no longer with the giants, and a few other older players retire/move on, there is gonna be a substantial amount of money already appropriated and ready to be spent.

i also agree with ken's take on giants' pitching - that it will be in good shape.

remember how the giants shocked baseball when they signed bonds as the game's highest-paid player? i look for a very significant signing for the 2008 season with the *bonds money*.

What young player will be a FA after the 2007 season? Teixeira? Dang Cards signed Pujols through the 2010 season! :grouchy

[west coast orange and black]

i think that it is not a matter of whether the giants give aardsma a chance to develop.rather, he simply did not figure in their plans. this has much to do with the philosophy of the general manager and the managing general partner.

they have saddled themselves to proven players, who tend to be older.

[west coast orange and black]

wags, you seem fixated or at least dependent on "young" players.

. . . . . . . . .
you tab pujols as your example. he is presently 25 years of age.
bonds was 28 when he first joined the giants. was that too old?

also, you better believe that if something better comes along the cards would pull the trigger.
that's just the way it goes.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

wags, you seem fixated or at least dependent on "young" players.

. . . . . . . . .
you tab pujols as your example. he is presently 25 years of age.
bonds was 28 when he first joined the giants. was that too old?

also, you better believe that if something better comes along the cards would pull the trigger.
that's just the way it goes.
Bonds is all-time player. But no, 28, is not too old. And when was the last time the Giants signed a good-to-great 28 year old player? Why do they continue to sign these 37-40 year old has-beens? The Cards trade Pujols? That is extemely unlikely. Pujols just tuned 26 in Janurary.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I argue that the Giants success since since 1997 is somewhat illusionary. They really only had two great teams, in 2000 and 2002 and perhaps 2003. Even the 2002 team wouldn't have made the postseason if there was no wildcard. The 1997 teams was a complete fluke. They were outscored by nine runs yet won 90 games. Then they meekly bowed out of the playoffs, 3-0. The Giants had the good foortune of having Barry Bonds. Getting Jeff Kent was a complete fluke, Kent being a throwaway in the Matt Wiliams deal with the Indians. What worked for them earlier was getting "Ellis Burke" type players, good players and get two good seasons out of them then dump them. Unfortunately, the "Ellis Burks" type signing lately have been terrible, Alsonso, Durham, Finley. I admit Alou has been ok but he's injury prone and it's not like he's going to get better. Why can't they sign guys like Jose Guillen or Carlos Lee, younger players with some prime seasons ahead of them? I'd try to trade for Austin Kearns. His trade value is rather low right now and he can really be something given the chance.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

You see, I don't think we are going to be that bad after Barry and the other elder statesmen leave. We free up a ton of money in salary, and Magowan is on record saying that they will spend it. Whether he will is another story. What I see if things go the way I hope is that the team will have a #1 in Cain, a #2 in Lowry, and a #4-5 in Hennessey. And with a potential closer in Valdez, plus some good arms in the pen, I think the pitching will be fine. The question becomes whether guys like Frandsen, Lewis, Chavez etc. will pan out, and I think that's more problematic. But with decent pitching the team can be competitive even if they aren't that strong on the field.

Add in decent FA pickups, and who knows how the team will fare?

KH14

The Giants do seem to have some good young pitchers. I'd feel more more secure if we had at least one veteran pitcher to lead this group. I hope Schmidt has a few more good seasons left in him.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

i think that it is not a matter of whether the giants give aardsma a chance to develop.rather, he simply did not figure in their plans. this has much to do with the philosophy of the general manager and the managing general partner.

they have saddled themselves to proven players, who tend to be older.
This is what really burns me with the Giants. They rather sign some 36 year junk baller with a career 4.60 ERA to be a relief pitcher then allow Aardsma to develop? Truly, I just don't understand that??? :confused:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Sorry, I'm in a grumpy mood today and the Giants are close to my heart since I was a kid. I hate to seem them struggle. I just needed to vent to my fellow Giants' fan bretheren. Thanks...:D

[KHenry14]

The Giants do seem to have some good young pitchers. I'd feel more more secure if we had at least one veteran pitcher to lead this group. I hope Schmidt has a few more good seasons left in him.

Jason showed me a lot last season when he learned to change his pitching style after he lost some off his heater. A lot of pitchers never learn that and end up out of the league. Now that it appears he's regained some of the mph, he may be even better. But a rotation of Cain, Lowry, Schmidt, Henessey and a #5 isn't a bad one if you ask me.

KH14

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Jason showed me a lot last season when he learned to change his pitching style after he lost some off his heater. A lot of pitchers never learn that and end up out of the league. Now that it appears he's regained some of the mph, he may be even better. But a rotation of Cain, Lowry, Schmidt, Henessey and a #5 isn't a bad one if you ask me.

KH14
That's probably the best rotation in the NL West right now. Still Cain may struggle in his first full year in the majors. He'll have stretches of dominance and stretches of ineffectiveness.

[west coast orange and black]

this'll be schmiddy's 11th season. maybe 12th. i forget.
but what i do know is that he carries a 67-28 record for the giants since landing with the big men.

the glass seems to always be half-empty for you, wags. c'mon, man, this is gonna be a fun season.

[west coast orange and black]

wags: This is what really burns me with the Giants...

dude, what the giants would rather do is win.
the "here + now" of it has dictated that the giants go for it every season while they have bonds.
it is reasonble to expect that the philosophy will change somewhat after 2007.
i sneaked "somewhat" in there because the owners have rent to pay.
that's the bottom line.

[west coast orange and black]

wags: I argue that the Giants success since since 1997 is somewhat illusionary. They really only had two great teams...

how many franchises would kill to have two great teams in that time?
dude.

aside from having fun and being entertaining, isn't the won-loss the bottom line?
yer startin' to sound like a guy who argues against a player who hits a *soft* .290

[west coast orange and black]

I just needed to vent to my fellow Giants' fan bretheren. Thanks

sometimes in our lives, we all have pain, we all have sorrow.
but if we are wise, we know that there's always tomorrow.

lean on me, when you're not strong and I'll be your friend.
i'll help you carry on, for it won't be long 'til i'm gonna need somebody
to lean on.

please swallow your pride, if have things you need to borrow.
for no one can fill those needs that you won't let show.

you just call on me brother when you need a hand.
we all need somebody to lean on.
i just might have a problem that you'll understand.
we all need somebody to lean on.

lean on me when you're not strong, and i'll be your friend.
i'll help you carry on, for it won't be long 'til i'm gonna' need
somebody to lean on.

you just call on me brother if you need a friend.
we all need somebody to lean on.
i just might have a problem that you'll understand.
we all need somebody to lean on.

if there is a load you have to bear that you can't carry.
i'm right up the road, i'll share your load if you just call me.
call me ( if you need a friend)
call me
call me
call me...

[SoxSon]

I just needed to vent to my fellow Giants' fan bretheren. Thanks...:D

And me, actually. I'm still here...:laugh :D

P.S. WCOAB: You have a lovely singing voice! :clapping

[west coast orange and black]

:o aw, wags just needed a little pick-me-up. we know that he is a true believer.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

wags: This is what really burns me with the Giants...

dude, what the giants would rather do is win.
the "here + now" of it has dictated that the giants go for it every season while they have bonds.
it is reasonble to expect that the philosophy will change somewhat after 2007.
i sneaked "somewhat" in there because the owners have rent to pay.
that's the bottom line.
I define "win now" as winning the World Series. Only in 2002 where the Giants even remotely close to winning the Wolrd Series. I agree the "win now" apporoach is good when the Giants are actually this close (fingers 1/8" appart) to being a World Championship caliber team. The Giants right now are nothing close to being a World Championship caliber team! They haven't been since 2003. If the Giants managment believes they are that good then there are clearly deluded. A true "win now" approach would be to do what the 1997 Marlins did; sign big time players for whatever amount needed and go for it. The Giants don't do that.


As for the rent, I thought the Giants owed 20 million dollars for Pac Bell? Since this is the 7th season at Pac Bell I would think the majority of the "rent" is probably paid by now. I just don't want Giants fans using the "rent is due" excuse in 2013. :D

[Honus Wagner Rules]

:o aw, wags just needed a little pick-me-up. we know that he is a true believer.
Hey, I'll be buried with a Giants' hat on!!! :D

[west coast orange and black]

so, two whole seasons removed, you claim.
q: how many of the 29 other teams would kill for that?

your definition of "win now" is different, far different than most others.

the yard cost something like $310-320M
you really think the rent is down to 20 mill?

[west coast orange and black]

Honus Wagner Rules!! Good Job on the hat news, wags.

[SoxSon]

Honus Wagner Rules!! Good Job on the hat news, wags.

That he'll be buried? That part? ;) :D

[west coast orange and black]

dude. :ughh
(but it was funny.)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

so, two whole seasons removed, you claim.
q: how many of the 29 other teams would kill for that?

your definition of "win now" is different, far different than most others.


We've seen the Giants win division titles, NL pennants, and 100 games in a season. I want a World Series title! Come on west coast, I know you are not satisfied with simply winning 90 game and winning the NL West title. The 2002 World Series is still a painful memory. Five outs away....:( I keep a team photo of the last Giants World Series team. It's black and white and most of the team is dead. I was so looking forward to finally replacing it with a color photo!


the yard cost something like $310-320M
you really think the rent is down to 20 mill?
I forget the details of the stadium deal. But I doubt they got it by paying 0% down. I thought they owed $20 million per year for the first five years and then it would be paid in full? Is that not correct?

[west coast orange and black]

wags, thee is a great distinction between what makes me happy and what makes me satisfied.

dunno how much is owed on the ballpark, but i would not sneeze to discover that >$100M is outstanding.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

wags, thee is a great distinction between what makes me happy and what makes me satisfied.

dunno how much is owed on the ballpark, but i would not sneeze to discover that >$100M is outstanding.
Pac Bell cost 255$ million acocrding to this : http://www.msfc.com/nextgen_baseball_pacificbell.cfm


here's some Pac Bell info

http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/pacbel.htm

[KHenry14]

wags: I argue that the Giants success since since 1997 is somewhat illusionary. They really only had two great teams...

how many franchises would kill to have two great teams in that time?
dude.

Lessee....Bums, D-Rays, Mets, Phils, Royals, Rangers, Rocks, Pirates, Cubs, Reds, Nats (Expos), Tigers, Brewers, Pads, Mariners(No WS) to name just a few. :D

KH14

[west coast orange and black]

wags: Pac Bell cost 255$ million according to this link of yours (http://www.msfc.com/nextgen_baseball_pacificbell.cfm)

... but $357M according to your other link (http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/pacbel.htm)

:crazy

[Honus Wagner Rules]

wags: Pac Bell cost 255$ million according to this link of yours (http://www.msfc.com/nextgen_baseball_pacificbell.cfm)

... but $357M according to your other link (http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/pacbel.htm)

:crazy
Yes, I know. One link says they borrowed $170 million from Chase Bank, another says they borrowed $140 million for Chase?! :crazy

[west coast orange and black]

so, my $300+M is lookin' pretty good right now. :D

[KHenry14]

On a different note, I thought it funny in today's spring training note, Mike Matheny called Matt "Cainer". Sounds like the kid is fitting in well. :D

KH14

[jetsdonwankey]

New Article saying Matt Cain should win the NL rookie of the year and possibily a CY young in a few years.

http://www.15sports.com/san-francisco-giants-rookie-matt-cain-sleeper-cy-young-rookie-of-the-year/

[Honus Wagner Rules]

New Article saying Matt Cain should win the NL rookie of the year and possibily a CY young in a few years.

http://www.15sports.com/san-francisco-giants-rookie-matt-cain-sleeper-cy-young-rookie-of-the-year/
How long until Cain is traded for some washed up 38 year old junk-ball reliever who is supposedly a "winner"? :rolleyes:

[west coast orange and black]

c'mon, wags, the season has not even started; the giants don't even have one in the loss column yet and already you are thinking negative thoughts.
dude.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

c'mon, wags, the season has not even started; the giants don't even have one in the loss column yet and already you are thinking negative thoughts.
dude.

Saw-wee. I'm actually excited about the Giants' season!! :D :clapping