What if Barry Bonds was White?

[runningshoes]

by John W. Lillpop
Mar 13, 2006

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/sports/article_21210231.shtml

The joy of a new baseball season is again being overshadowed by reports about Barry Bonds & steroids. Steroids talk will probably dominate media reports all summer as Bonds seeks to pass Babe Ruth & Hank Aaron & become the most prolific homer run slugger in history.
Despite his prosperity, Bonds regards himself as a victim of white racism. On more than one occasion, Bonds has dismissed media criticism by dragging out the R word.

But one wonders: How would a white Bonds fare? Does the name Pete Rose provide a clue about how a white superstar with integrity issues might be treated?

A more relevant question: How would leaders in the Black Community & those in the liberal media react if a white ball player with Bonds' alleged steroid history was about to dethrone Hank Aaron, a black icon?

Think about it.


I had never really related Pete Rose in this way.

[Elvis]

I don't think of Bonds as a black dude or Aaron being a black icon. I think of Aaron as BASEBALL icon and Bonds as a smarmy, cheating piece of llama poo, just like Mark Donkey poo McGuire and Rafy turtle poo Palmeiro and anyone else big or small who is a juicer, black, green or tie-dye.

[TonyK]

McGwire could have been the one approaching Aaron's record had he chose to go the same route as Bonds. He could easily have hit 100 home runs in two seasons to move closer. I think he would have handled the mess differently, and probably retired rather than erase Aaron's home run record.

[Blackout]

When McGwire was in court and said "I'm not here to talk about the past", he took just as much crap from fans and tv personalities as Bonds is now

people just have short term memories i guess

[runningshoes]

When McGwire was in court and said "I'm not here to talk about the past", he took just as much crap from fans and tv personalities as Bonds is now

people just have short term memories i guess

I don't remember it being quite like this and my memory is pretty good.

[rockin500]

When McGwire was in court and said "I'm not here to talk about the past", he took just as much crap from fans and tv personalities as Bonds is now

people just have short term memories i guess
he took a lot of crap for about a week and then it was pretty much forgotten. It was more making fun of him than actually "hating him" that Barry gets.

[wogdoggy]

basically Bonds is a jerk no matter what color he is.And there you have it.:clapping

[RuthMayBond]

by John W. Lillpop
Mar 13, 2006

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/sports/article_21210231.shtml




I had never really related Pete Rose in this way.What exactly is the point?

[Boston Boxer]

When McGwire was in court and said "I'm not here to talk about the past", he took just as much crap from fans and tv personalities as Bonds is now

people just have short term memories i guess

no way did he take as much crap as Bonds. McGwire is a piece of crap and ran away from it all, instead of manning up. Bonds is still here, and until he is charged with anything, he will still be around. All you folks that are calling for Bonds to retire, do you find it funny that he has not been charged with anything. Did he do it? I don't know, put if he did why are they not taking action?

[wogdoggy]

bonds is still here cause hes trying to get something.dont make him out to be mr standup guy.lol...

[KCGHOST]

Anyway you want to color him his is an a******.

[Mattingly]

Barry and his fans can cry "racism" all they want. He's the one approaching the career HR record. Unlike McGwire or Sosan, neither of whom have 600 jacks, Bonds was already a Hall of Famer, having hit 400 dingers and stolen 400 bases before he hit 73 jacks.

If you act the way he does and are strongly linked to the people he is mentioned with, then you'll get that flack.

Barry's case isn't too close to McGwire's or Sosa's, but they've both been run through the mud also.

[runningshoes]

What exactly is the point?

You'll have to ask the author that one.

I just came across it and wanted to know what everyone thought.

[johncap]

I don't think of Bonds as a black dude or Aaron being a black icon. I think of Aaron as BASEBALL icon and Bonds as a smarmy, cheating piece of llama poo, just like Mark Donkey poo McGuire and Rafy turtle poo Palmeiro and anyone else big or small who is a juicer, black, green or tie-dye.
EXACTLY. Couldn't have said it better myself. This isn't about race and only dreck like Stephen A. Smith would try to make it that. Bonds is a surly, self-involved pice of crap. And a cheater and liar. As was McGwire. What makes Sammy Sosa a little less of a villain is the fact that he's a nice guy, unlike the other two.

[Mike D.]

McGwire ran away from what? The game? He hit .187 his last year, so it's obvous he didn't have much left.

Ran away from Congress? What good could have come from him admitting anything. And speaking of that dog and pony show, why wasn't Bonds there? Or Sheffield? Or Giambi? If it was supposed to be about finding users, those guys would have been there. That wasn't the point, and when the congressmen went on a witchhunt, McGwire stuck to his guys.

The big difference between McGwire and Bonds is that there is no proof that McGwire used steroids, where it appears that there is finally some real proof against Bonds.

Personality goes a long way....way beyond race....1998 was a blast, and it didn't matter to 99% of the fans if McGwire or Sosa set the record. When Bonds broke the record, there was none of that fun, and a lot of it was because of Bonds personality.

[johncap]

no way did he take as much crap as Bonds. McGwire is a piece of crap and ran away from it all, instead of manning up. Bonds is still here, and until he is charged with anything, he will still be around. All you folks that are calling for Bonds to retire, do you find it funny that he has not been charged with anything. Did he do it? I don't know, put if he did why are they not taking action?
Bonds is still here because he couldn't care less about anything but himself. I don't disagree that McGwire is a piece of crap, but so is Bonds. Neither own up to what they've done and Bonds is probably STILL doing it! I won't defend anything about EITHER of them.

[digglahhh]

The Congressional investigation did what all Congressional Investigations do. They pay lip service to a problem, call for some token reforms and consider it done. In the process they bury the worst of the worst, the real damning evidence that would cause people to ask the bigger questions, parade out a scapegoat, let's the tar and feather fly then pat themselves on the back, thinking they did good. Anybody remember Iran Contra?...

Big Mac was protected from the greatest scrutiny because, a) nobody ever published a book detailing his cheating program and b) he's out of the game and the records are protected from him.

I think that the extra-villification of Bonds is due more to the pre-held notion that he was a jerk than the fact that he is black. Though, in a complex way, I would argue that being black is part of the reason as he is seen as such a jerk in the first place. But overall, I don't think race plays a DIRECT, or PARTICULARLY prominent role is his terrible public image. And this is coming from somebody who thinks race is virtually omnipresent in the social/political/athletic spheres.

I would hypothesize that if the same exact cirsumstances happened to Mac, he would be getting crucified pretty badly as well.

[runningshoes]

The Congressional investigation did what all Congressional Investigations do. They pay lip service to a problem, call for some token reforms and consider it done. In the process they bury the worst of the worst, the real damning evidence that would cause people to ask the bigger questions, parade out a scapegoat, let's the tar and feather fly then pat themselves on the back, thinking they did good. Anybody remember Iran Contra?...

Big Mac was protected from the greatest scrutiny because, a) nobody ever published a book detailing his cheating program and b) he's out of the game and the records are protected from him.

I think that the extra-villification of Bonds is due more to the pre-held notion that he was a jerk than the fact that he is black. Though, in a complex way, I would argue that being black is part of the reason as he is seen as such a jerk in the first place. But overall, I don't think race plays a DIRECT, or PARTICULARLY prominent role is his terrible public image. And this is coming from somebody who thinks race is virtually omnipresent in the social/political/athletic sphere.

I would hypothesize that if the same exact cirsumstances happened to Mac, he would be getting crucified pretty badly as well.

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out here, it's because, arguably, the greatest player ever is black?

[RuthMayBond]

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out here, it's because, arguably, the greatest player ever is black?And you are obviously referring to ...?

[runningshoes]

And you are obviously referring to ...?

I just want to know if all this hatred towards Bond has racial overtones.

[RuthMayBond]

I just want to know if all this hatred towards Bond has racial overtones.I figure a fair amount of it does, just as a fair amount of defending Bonds does. And you didn't answer my question

[ndistops]

I just want to know if all this hatred towards Bond has racial overtones.
No, it has overtones involving the fact that he "doesn't sign for white people", is an arrogant ass, tells the media to clean out their closets before reporting news, treats everyone like crap, has a recliner and big-screen in the Giants locker room that he takes up 1/4 of, uses his son as a shield against questions, and then cries racism.

The only person in this debate seeing color is Barry Lamar Bonds.

[runningshoes]

I figure a fair amount of it does, just as a fair amount of defending Bonds does. And you didn't answer my question

Why don't you rephrase the question so I can be sure what you're asking.

[johncap]

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out here, it's because, arguably, the greatest player ever is black?
The greatest player EVER IS black. He happens to be Bonds' Godfather, one Willie Mays.

[RuthMayBond]

Why don't you rephrase the question so I can be sure what you're asking.What about post #19 even resembles complicated?

[johncap]

....1998 was a blast, and it didn't matter to 99% of the fans if McGwire or Sosa set the record. When Bonds broke the record, there was none of that fun, and a lot of it was because of Bonds personality.
1998 and all that HR crap was a joke and a travesty THEN as it is now in retrospect. I sat through a Phillies game where they constantly barraged us in the park with live feeds of McGwire hitting that 62nd HR and then having to watch the choreographed garbage of him hugging his kid, who he had not ime for until he could use him as a PR tool. It was disgusting and a disgrace and I never got puled into the dog and pony show that was McGwire, sosa and then Bonds. And Budman deserves the most blame for letting it all transpire in the name of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! :grouchy

[johncap]

What about post #19 even resembles complicated?
Oh man, I can't wait... :clapping

[runningshoes]

What about post #19 even resembles complicated?

Why are you patronizing me?

I'm trying to figure this all out.

I'm even starting to soften on my stance with Bonds, but I have questions and that's why I posted this and the other threads.

I've been on the outside looking in on your country since I was a child and I know racism is rampant and if Bonds is hated because he's black, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Ask me the question and if I can answer it I will. I can take it to mean I'm obviously refering to Barry Bonds, or I can take it to mean something else entirely.

[RuthMayBond]

Why are you patronizing me?

I'm trying to figure this all out.

I'm even starting to soften on my stance with Bonds, but I have questions and that's why I posted this and the other threads.

I've been on the outside looking in on your country since I was a child and I know racism is rampant and if Bonds is hated because he's black, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Ask me the question and if I can answer it I will. I can take it to mean I'm obviously refering to Barry Bonds, or I can take it to mean something else entirely.You say something in post #18 about it being possibly because the greatest player ever is black. I ask you in post #19 which greatest player you're referring to. No one's trying to patronize you, but I suppose your country has the racism problem solved.

[Mattingly]

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out here, it's because, arguably, the greatest player ever is black?
The player with the greatest offensive records ever (Barry Bonds) is black. I wouldn't call him the greatest player ever.

Willie Mays, arguably the greatest living ballplayer, was also beloved because of his infectious smile. A smile will go a long way. Just ask hoopster Earvin "Magic" Johnson or jazz master Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong.

[johncap]

The player with the greatest offensive records ever (Barry Bonds) is black. I wouldn't call him the greatest player ever.

Willie Mays, arguably the greatest living ballplayer, was also beloved because of his infectious smile. A smile will go a long way. Just ask hoopster Earvin "Magic" Johnson or jazz master Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong.
Mays is the greatest player ever, living or dead, smiling or snarling.

I'd love to have a few beers with him and see what he thinks of his miserable God-son.

[runningshoes]

You say something in post #18 about it being possibly because the greatest player ever is black. I ask you in post #19 which greatest player you're referring to. No one's trying to patronize you, but I suppose your country has the racism problem solved.

Yes..I was referring to Bonds and no we don't have our racism problem solved and without getting trying to get into an argument, I will say I believe we are leaps and bounds ahead of the US.

[trosmok]

Barry Bonds .... is...is... BLACK?????:eek:

[RuthMayBond]

Yes..I was referring to Bonds.OK, we're talking about the greatest players ever and Ruth nor Cobb has been mentioned

[johncap]

Yes..I was referring to Bonds and no we don't have our racism problem solved and without getting trying to get into an argument, I will say I believe we are leaps and bounds ahead of the US.
You make some interesting circular arguments. Mike Schmidt who says he took greenies, like most ballplayers of his era, and a substance known to actually reduce performance, is considered by you to be a cheater and NOT the best 3B of all time. However, Bonds, pretty much acknowledged to be a cheat, is considered by you to be the best player of all time. I find this amusing, if not sickening, considering there are probably many more like you who think this creep deserves our praise instead of disdain.

[johncap]

Barry Bonds .... is...is... BLACK?????:eek:

He sure as hell doesn't try to be! :clapping

[jpenrod]

Why don't you rephrase the question so I can be sure what you're asking.

I think RMB was asking who you were referring to as the greatest player ever. You see some people would debate who that is. Of course I could be wrong about what RMB was asking, I mean apparently the question was not as Black & White as you seem to think the Bonds Steroids issue is.

[runningshoes]

You make some interesting circular arguments. Mike Schmidt who says he took greenies, like most ballplayers of his era, and a substance known to actually reduce performance, is considered by you to be a cheater and NOT the best 3B of all time. However, Bonds, pretty much acknowledged to be a cheat, is considered by you to be the best player of all time. I find this amusing, if not sickening, considering there are probably many more like you who think this creep deserves our praise instead of disdain.



Where did I say he was the greatest player?

You know the meaning of the word arguably, right?

I wasn't serious about Schmidt. That was a lighthearted post in a lighthearted thread. I know damn well he's one of, if not the best third baseman ever.

Have you even bothered to read my posts about Bonds in pother threads?

I don't believe he deserves our praise.

Perhaps you should know what you're saying before you open it?

Is comprehension a serious problem for you?

[Tigerfan1974]

One could 'what if . . .' all day.
Bonds is not white, so what is the point? :confused:

[digglahhh]

One could 'what if . . .' all day.
Bonds is not white, so what is the point? :confused:

Right, so assuming you are white, what is the point of even considering the implications of racism in America. What's the point of imagining what life would be like if you were black? What was the point of John Griffin's book?

I don't know, maybe the intrinsic moral value of addressing widespread inequity in our country? Examining the reasons why certain groups of people are disproportinately poor, portrayed in a degrading light by the media, incarcerated and prosecuted more aggresively?

Now, I don't really think that race plays an extremely important role in this situation directly, but it certainly is worth asking the question. Its always worth asking these kinds of questions.

[johncap]

Where did I say he was the greatest player?

You know the meaning of the word arguably, right?

I wasn't serious about Schmidt. That was a lighthearted post in a lighthearted thread. I know damn well he's one of, if not the best third baseman ever.

Have you even bothered to read my posts about Bonds in pother threads?

I don't believe he deserves our praise.

Perhaps you should know what you're saying before you open it?

Is comprehension a serious problem for you?
You're quite the argumentative dude. None of the guys I know in the Phillies thread read your rip of Schmidt as particularly lighthearted. Say what you mean and mean what you say and you won't need to keep asking everyone if they have trouble comprehending you. Otherwise, we'll all keep reading between your lines.

[Mike D.]

1998 and all that HR crap was a joke and a travesty THEN as it is now in retrospect. I sat through a Phillies game where they constantly barraged us in the park with live feeds of McGwire hitting that 62nd HR and then having to watch the choreographed garbage of him hugging his kid, who he had not ime for until he could use him as a PR tool. It was disgusting and a disgrace and I never got puled into the dog and pony show that was McGwire, sosa and then Bonds. And Budman deserves the most blame for letting it all transpire in the name of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! :grouchy


So...you don't want networks to cut to a record breaking event when it happens? Or to show them during a live game?

Can you back up the comment about McGwire and his kid? McGwire seems to like kids...even has a charity that donates money to abused-children causes.

So, the game should not celebrate records being broken, because it's just a "dog and pony show"? I assume you felt the same about the big deal made when Ripken broke the consecutive games record?

So, if you don't like record breaking events, celebrating players, and home runs...what DO you like about baseball? :confused:

[ricky151]

No one talks about Giambi anymore. Giambi had such a good second half what is he using now? Look Sosa and Maguire without steroids would not even be every day players. Bonds is a hall of famer before steroids. He could play defense steal bases hit for average and hit some homers. Look curt shilling was accused of doping but he was never charged with anything. Do we put him in the same class as bonds? Sheffield admitted to using a steroid cream, but I guess he is forgiven because he thought it was Ben gay..
Give me a break. More than half of the top home run hitters were using performance enhancing drugs during the 90s, so we should get on their backs to not just bonds. The home run race was is a lot like the Olympic 100 meter dash. What drugs can you inject yourself with to win without getting caught?
The only problem is that the in the Olympics it’s harder to cheat, but don’t think it's not happening.

[johncap]

Right, so assuming you are white, what is the point of even considering the implications of racism in America. What's the point of imagining what life would be like if you were black? What was the point of John Griffin's book?

I don't know, maybe the intrinsic moral value of addressing widespread inequity in our country? Examining the reasons why certain groups of people are disproportinately poor, portrayed in a degrading light by the media, incarcerated and prosecuted more aggresively?

Now, I don't really think that race plays an extremely important role in this situation directly, but it certainly is worth asking the question. Its always worth asking these kinds of questions.
How does any of this have any meaning when it comes to a wealthy, spoiled, miserable, nasty, creepy kid doing chemicals to get an edge? What on earth does that have to do with any moral or social issues related to race relations? The guy is disliked by the masses because he's a creep. How do you think the white masses would have responded to this if he had Willie Mays' persona? I think the response would be more in line with the response to assertions that Sosa also juiced. Which is to say mild concern. People like Sammy and don't want it to be true. Many people dislike McGwire and can't wait for more evidence. When that happens you'll see an outpouring of anger aimed at him as well. Bonds has brought all of this on himself, and while many are probably more eager to spew on someone of the opposite race at every turn, bringing race into this particular arena makes little sense and just supports Bonds' where he lives.

[Blackout]

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out here, it's because, arguably, the greatest player ever is black?

http://www.rare-baseball-books.com/Images/Babe-Ruth-at-Bat.jpg

you sure about that?

[digglahhh]

Just to put it out there.

Race, IMO, is one of many underlying reasons why Bonds is thought to be a jerk. Whenever wealthy minority athletes express disapproval of the media or foreign policy of this country, the reflexive reaction is backlash. Why is Bonds complaining about racism, he's rich? Why is Delgado complaining about the US in Vieques, the U.S. gives him the opportunity to make $14 million a year, or whatever. As if racism is cured by Bonds being famous, or Latin American exploitation can be summarliy dismissed by Carlos Delgado's contract.

The audacity to speak out and criticize a country that pays you obscene amounts of money is seen as ingratitude. Many presume the homelands of foreigners to be backward places that envy the economic prosperity of the US, not even considering that US intervention and global economic and militaristic dominance could be part of the reasons those countries are economic wastelands. Many assume that Bonds being wealthy symobolizes his immunity to racism. That is not true. Economic advancement and freedom is the most cosmetic form of emancipation. Much of the outrage about Bonds is that he is a rich black man who cries racism, there is a perception the he is an ingrate and spoiled. Well, Bonds is not fooled into thinking that he fully accepted in society just because he is rich, and for that we attack him, Delgado and the like.

Now, I've said that the extra villification of Bonds is due to him being a jerk and not him being black. But syllogistically, part of the reason why consider him a jerk has to do with the attitudes he espouses as a black man. So the race thing is there in the roots, but not blatantly at the forefront as some people are accusing.

[Mike D.]

Look Sosa and Maguire without steroids would not even be every day players.

Not to come off as a McGwire apologist...but McGwire hit 49 home runs as a rookie in 1987...are you suggesting that he was juicing way back then? He was also enough of a talent while in college to be an Olympian and #10 overall pick in the baseball draft.

[johncap]

So...you don't want networks to cut to a record breaking event when it happens? Or to show them during a live game?

Can you back up the comment about McGwire and his kid? McGwire seems to like kids...even has a charity that donates money to abused-children causes.

So, the game should not celebrate records being broken, because it's just a "dog and pony show"? I assume you felt the same about the big deal made when Ripken broke the consecutive games record?

So, if you don't like record breaking events, celebrating players, and home runs...what DO you like about baseball? :confused:
Records broken legitimately are great. Only a blind man couldn't see what was going on with McGwire and Sosa. And if you don't beleive he cheated, then I guess OJ was innocent too. No, I didn't enjoy watching people celebrate that FRAUD, and that's what McGwire was and is. Don't worry, it'll all come out. As for his relationship with the kid, it was well publicized then that he seldom saw or communicated with him. There was a lot of surprise when they put that act on at home plate.

No, I don't like watching repulsive people who cheat break celebrated records and then get raised to meteoric heights because of living better chemically.

there's nothing whatever to be confused about. I didn't enjoy seeing Brady Anderson abuse the record books, in retrospect I am asshamed of what Lenny Dykstra did during '93 (we didn't know back then that is HR barrrage in the post-season was juice-induced), and I didn't like ANY of this crap from Bonds, McGwire, Sosa as well as the rest, Giambi et al. Nope, no confusion here!

[johncap]

Not to come off as a McGwire apologist...but McGwire hit 49 home runs as a rookie in 1987...are you suggesting that he was juicing way back then? He was also enough of a talent while in college to be an Olympian and #10 overall pick in the baseball draft.
I guess that validates an increase of 50% from his previous high at a far more advanced age....

[Mike D.]

I guess that validates an increase of 50% from his previous high at a far more advanced age....

If you look historically at power hitters....yeah, it probably would. Name one power hitter who had their highest HR total in their rookie season. It seems likely he became a better power hitter as he aged. His K/BB ratio certainly improved over time...was that steroid induced?

[Mike D.]

Records broken legitimately are great. Only a blind man couldn't see what was going on with McGwire and Sosa. And if you don't beleive he cheated, then I guess OJ was innocent too. No, I didn't enjoy watching people celebrate that FRAUD, and that's what McGwire was and is. Don't worry, it'll all come out. As for his relationship with the kid, it was well publicized then that he seldom saw or communicated with him. There was a lot of surprise when they put that act on at home plate.

I call BS...if you KNEW McGwire was using steroids in 1998, why didn't you say something...I'm sure the media would have run with the story, there would have been investigations, etc.

Basically, in 1998, we knew that McGwire used Andro, which you could buy at GNC at your local mall at the time. Anyone who "knew" or thought they knew more...or think that now, are mistaking assumptions for proven facts.

[runningshoes]

You're quite the argumentative dude. None of the guys I know in the Phillies thread read your rip of Schmidt as particularly lighthearted. Say what you mean and mean what you say and you won't need to keep asking everyone if they have trouble comprehending you. Otherwise, we'll all keep reading between your lines.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

[wogdoggy]

was that steroid induced?


no but the ones that used to go to the warning track that now go over the fence ARE!

[runningshoes]

you sure about that?

Once again..I didn't Bonds was the greatest ever.

There's a very reactionary mood around here today.

I wonder if anyone is actually reading anything.

[RuthMayBond]

no but the ones that used to go to the warning track that now go over the fence ARE!And you know which ones those are :clapping

[wogdoggy]

ruthy... remove nose from bonds A$$.lol..the guys a cheating arrogant sob...but apparently you find those traits attractive.

[RuthMayBond]

arrogant sob...but apparently you find those traits attractive.Hardly, especially when you've refined them so well :laugh :waving

[wogdoggy]

sniff sniff ruthy,,,barrys a cheat.deal.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Once again..I didn't Bonds was the greatest ever.

There's a very reactionary mood around here today.

I wonder if anyone is actually reading anything.
I am, but only as a moderator. :waving
Nothing wrong with debate as long as it stays there.

[RuthMayBond]

sniff sniff ruthy,,,The only thing I can sniff is your diaper, and from way over here :laugh

[wogdoggy]

maybe theres another anti bond thread you can run and defend..how pathetic ruth may steroid

[runningshoes]

I am, but only as a moderator. :waving
Nothing wrong with debate as long as it stays there.

Not too worry.

I can't debate with the short-sighted anyhow.

And I'll qualify that by saying I don't mean you because I'm sure someone would take that to mean I am referring to you if I didn't make myself comprehensible to the incomprehensible.

Go figure.

[Captain Cold Nose]

maybe theres another anti bond thread you can run and defend..how pathetic ruth may steroid
Baseball related, thread related, Bonds related.
If not, then post will go kaput. The thread will go on without childish insults.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Turn it around, what if pete Rose was black. I'm sure, would bet my life that there would be some saying, it's time to forgive, if he was white he would have received better treatment from the press and MLB.

[Mattingly]

Mays is the greatest player ever, living or dead, smiling or snarling.

I'd love to have a few beers with him and see what he thinks of his miserable God-son.
To my knowledge, Willie Mays was always a friendly person, I'm sure he was great with kids. Hey, he even had his own kid 'toon, Willie Mays & The Say Hey Kid (http://www.bcdb.com/bcdb/cartoon.cgi?film=27858&cartoon=Willie+Mays+and+the+Say-Hey+Kid).

Since he's Barry's Godfather, he refuses to discuss anything to do with steroids. I've heard Hammerin' Hank, however, having his misgivings about Barry, questioning Barry's legitimacy a bit. This from someone who's suffered *TONS* of racism merely because he was a black man chasing, then finally surpassing, Ruth's vaunted HR record, considered untouchable.

To me, Barry should stop piggy-backing off people who actually have suffered because of race. MLB did major promotions on him and ESPN would constantly interrupt regular games just to mention that Barry Bonds was *AT BAT*. Hadn't even swung yet, much less been pitched to. He was *AT BAT*! Is that racism?

His wealth doesn't matter to me, since Messrs Jeter, A-Rod and others have similar levels of wealth. This whole thing seems like a massive deflection of his PED usage to me. When he hit the longballs, the crowd cheered him on. Would've cheered louder had he been the "Big Mac" to a more animated "Sosa", but they still cheered. Did you see the fighting for his #600 longball? They had *CATCHER'S MASKS* on and were fighting each other like it was a winning lottery ticket.

People didn't suddenly realize that he's black when there was less enthusiasm for his #700. In the end, you reap what you sow. If you're very nice and kind ot people, this will reflect well upon you and you will be treated accordingly. If you're stand-offish and tight-lipped, this won't reflect too well of you and again, you will be treated accordingly.

Had Barry simply become a bit more friendly, or at least made attempts to do this, he could've been on top of the world. Of course, he'd still have to answer about his alleged PED usage, so even more than a smile--or one's race--would've been required for his popularity to improve.

Then there's the matter of those large rubber things he wears on his elbows, allowing him to get on the inside of the plate w/o being harmed by a fastball ...

[wogdoggy]

Turn it around, what if pete Rose was black. I'm sure, would bet my life that there would be some saying, it's time to forgive, if he was white he would have received better treatment from the press and MLB.


Obviously the "RACE CARD" only works with certain races.:eek:

[Mattingly]

Turn it around, what if pete Rose was black. I'm sure, would bet my life that there would be some saying, it's time to forgive, if he was white he would have received better treatment from the press and MLB.


Obviously the "RACE CARD" only works with certain races.:eek:
If the rules were posted on the clubhouse, then a bettor is a bettor. Does anyone care whether the campus bookie is black, white, Hispanic or Asian?

[Mattingly]

maybe theres another anti bond thread you can run and defend..how pathetic ruth may steroid
Gee, I'm sure that's 100% worse than this post:
ruthy... remove nose from bonds A$$.lol..the guys a cheating arrogant sob...but apparently you find those traits attractive.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Had Barry simply become a bit more friendly, or at least made attempts to do this, he could've been on top of the world. Of course, he'd still have to answer about his alleged PED usage, so even more than a smile--or one's race--would've been required for his popularity to improve.
.

Some just don't want to hear it. I've never said it's fair to dislike Barry because of his dumb statements and actions over the years but thats beside the point. It's just human nature not to endear some athletes, celebrities and even some in our own personal life because they have certain traits that rub people the wrong way.

[wogdoggy]

If the rules were posted on the clubhouse, then a bettor is a bettor. Does anyone care whether the campus bookie is black, white, Hispanic or Asian?


exactly nobody cares except the bond race card players..barry is a cheat,guys like you defend these cheats.hope ya feel good about yourself...I'll go start another anti bonds thread and you and ruth may steroid can visit.

[RuthMayBond]

I'll go start another anti bonds thread and you and ruth may steroid can visit.Hopefully your owner gets out the scooper to clean up after you . . . or even better, kennels you for a LONG while

[SHOELESSJOE3]

If the rules were posted on the clubhouse, then a bettor is a bettor. Does anyone care whether the campus bookie is black, white, Hispanic or Asian?

Not sure if I understand your reply. Getting back to my point if Rose were black for sure his skin color would creep into the situation.

[wogdoggy]

Not sure if I understand your reply. Getting back to my point if Rose were black for sure his skin color would creep into the situation.


you can bet on it as sure as ruth may steroid can find an anti bond thread..if my wallet were as fat as his head i'd be set for life.:clapping

[johnny]

The player with the greatest offensive records ever (Barry Bonds) is black. I wouldn't call him the greatest player ever.

Willie Mays, arguably the greatest living ballplayer, was also beloved because of his infectious smile. A smile will go a long way. Just ask hoopster Earvin "Magic" Johnson or jazz master Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong.

Spot on Mattingly!!!!

I would just add the great Martin Luther King who has had arguably the greatest impact of turning American hearts and minds in the 20th century.

[Mattingly]

Spot on Mattingly!!!!

I would just add the great Martin Luther King who has had arguably the greatest impact of turning American hearts and minds in the 20th century.
In that case, you've *GOTTA* add Jackie Robinson in there! No getting away from that. He got more hate than even Aaron did, as he was the *ONLY* person in there coming into an all-white game, and his triumphs, everybody knew were sure to bring other African-Americans (and Hispanics, Asians) along.

http://www.veaweteach.org/images/photos/people/Jackie_Robinson.jpg

Now I'm getting too technical. On a side note, time to have some fun. This one's all for jokes, from theonion.com, a humor publication. Please see the picture separately, but it's got one word I won't post here. ;)

Barry Bonds Took Steroids, Reports Everyone Who Has Ever Watched Baseball (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46188)
SAN FRANCISCO—With the publication of a book detailing steroid use by San Francisco Giants superstar Barry Bonds, two San Francisco Chronicle reporters have corroborated the claims of Bonds' steroid abuse made by every single person who has watched or even loosely followed the game of baseball over the past five years.

In Game Of Shadows, an excerpt of which appeared in Sports Illustrated Wednesday, authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams claim that more than a dozen people close to Bonds had either been directly informed that Bonds was using banned substances or had in fact seen him taking the drugs with their own eyes. In addition to those witnesses, nearly 250 million other individuals nationwide had instantly realized that Bonds was using banned substances after observing his transformation from lanky speedster to hulking behemoth with their own eyes.

According to hundreds of thousands of reports coming out of every city in the U.S., Bonds' steroid use has been widely reported and well-documented for years, with sports columnists, bloggers, people attending baseball games, memorabilia collectors, major ballpark popcorn and peanut vendors, groundskeepers, roommates, significant others, fathers-in-law, next-door neighbors, fellow fitness club members, bartenders, mailmen, coworkers, teachers, doormen, parking-lot attendants, fellow elevator passengers, Home Depot clerks, servicemen and women serving in Iraq, former baseball players, Congressmen, second-tier stand-up comics, Sports Illustrated's Rick Reilly, and random passersby all having stated at some point in the last five years that Bonds was obviously taking some sort of performance-enhancing drugs.

[Mattingly]

Not sure if I understand your reply. Getting back to my point if Rose were black for sure his skin color would creep into the situation.
Yes, the color of his skin would creep its way into the discussion. At the time, I'd mentioned to my own Mother, "What if it had been Reggie, rather than Rose?" That stopped her cold, even though she wasn't a sports fan.

To me, if it's against the rules, it doesn't matter one way or the next whether you are black, white, Hispanic or Asian. Betting on baseball is betting on baseball.

Clear as mud now?

[wogdoggy]

pretty much says it all great post.love the onion

[johncap]

If you look historically at power hitters....yeah, it probably would. Name one power hitter who had their highest HR total in their rookie season. It seems likely he became a better power hitter as he aged. His K/BB ratio certainly improved over time...was that steroid induced?
Oh please. If you really belive that I';ve got some prime swampland I can give you a good deal on. Go do some basic research on the prime age of a baseball player. And you'll see it is 27. Only Barry Bonds has destroyed that common fact. And McGwire to a lesser but still meaningful degree. Baseball players do not naturally get better with age once they pass the prime of 27. They simply AGE. Besides, all anyone had to do was look at the mass he had become. Gee, 61 homers stands for 40 years. Before that 60 stood for 30 years. All of a sudden we get 4, 5 guys going over 60 and over 70. Nothing unusual about that. Especially when all three guys had become the hulk!

[wogdoggy]

all those deep fly balls became home runs...put a big asterick by barry steroids stats.

[johnny]

[QUOTE=Mattingly]In that case, you've *GOTTA* add Jackie Robinson in there! No getting away from that. He got more hate than even Aaron did, as he was the *ONLY* person in there coming into an all-white game, and his triumphs, everybody knew were sure to bring other African-Americans (and Hispanics, Asians) along."


Damn, your right.

Can I also submit Larry Doby along with Jackie. He came in 90 days later and broke the color barrier for the American League. Larry seems to get overlooked but I view his accomplishments as something special.

[johncap]

Then there's the matter of those large rubber things he wears on his elbows, allowing him to get on the inside of the plate w/o being harmed by a fastball ...
I'm glad you brought that up. I was listening to some radio guy bemoan how poor Barry has to endure getting hit so much. Well, he stands on top of the plate with NO fear of getting hurt because of that damn armor they allow him to wear. It's a joke. If I were throwing to him, I'd buzz him first and second time up. Of course, ralizing I suck anyway, that'd probably be my first and last chance to pitch to him... but what the hell. Hey Schilling can buzz him and then blame him like he did the rook last week in ST.

[RuthMayBond]

Oh please. If you really belive that I';ve got some prime swampland I can give you a good deal on. Go do some basic research on the prime age of a baseball player. And you'll see it is 27. Only Barry Bonds has destroyed that common fact.Don't tell him about Dazzy Vance, Paul Molitor, Mike Easler, Roger Clemens ...

[wogdoggy]

prime age not exceptions ruth may steroids......you sure can twist a barry thread cant ya? lol..pathetic:crazy

[RuthMayBond]

all those deep fly balls became home runs...put a big asterick by barry steroids stats.You shouldn't mind Barry breaking records, you're a broken record yourself :waving

[RuthMayBond]

prime age not exceptions ruth may steroids......you sure can twist a barry thread cant ya? lol..pathetic:crazySo Barry's not allowed to be an exception but other players are? Great logic :clapping

[wogdoggy]

since you seem to have all the answers miss roid,how did BARRY's Head get so darn big? LITERALLY SPEAKING OF COURSE..hehehe EXPLAIN IT RUTH.how does a head grow that big.?

[johnny]

Oh please. If you really belive that I';ve got some prime swampland I can give you a good deal on. Go do some basic research on the prime age of a baseball player. And you'll see it is 27. Only Barry Bonds has destroyed that common fact. And McGwire to a lesser but still meaningful degree. Baseball players do not naturally get better with age once they pass the prime of 27. They simply AGE. Besides, all anyone had to do was look at the mass he had become. Gee, 61 homers stands for 40 years. Before that 60 stood for 30 years. All of a sudden we get 4, 5 guys going over 60 and over 70. Nothing unusual about that. Especially when all three guys had become the hulk!

didn't sosa 'avg' 60 plus homers over a four year period :grouchy :grouchy :grouchy :grouchy it was a freakin crime scene to any sense of baseball history.

Bud Selig : 'yeah, nothing here folks just move along....'

[ndistops]

I read that Sammy and Mac supposedly wouldn't have been everyday players without steroids...the only problem with that is that they were both very good ballplayers before their muscles "suspiciously" grew.

In the meantime, debate ought to probably stay within the Bonds/race/impact medium...

The whole thing of what if Barry Bonds were white is sort of a misnomer...Bonds's at-times-blatant racism towards white people would never be tolerated if it was the other way around and he were a white person who cried racism and insulted black people. He would be decried as a despicable human being even more so and would be universally hated by blacks and any well-thinking whites.

The point is that if Barry were white, and were still a racist, cheater, jerk, etc. he would be even MORE despised than he is now as a black man.

[Blackout]

So Barry's not allowed to be an exception but other players are? Great logic :clapping


players who dont have books coming out later this month about how they used steroids for 5 years are allowed to be exceptions

[RuthMayBond]

since you seem to have all the answers miss roidThe only "miss" here is of my gender ,try to get one answer right

<how did BARRY's Head get so darn big? LITERALLY SPEAKING OF COURSE..hehehe EXPLAIN IT RUTH.how does a head grow that big.?>

Explain how you measured it :laugh Barry listened to your attacks, considered the source, and considered it all praise so keep it up :waving

[wogdoggy]

you SURE your not a WOMAN? i'd still bet on it.lol:o

i guess you cant explain that big noggin can ya?

[RuthMayBond]

you SURE your not a WOMAN? i'd still bet on it.lol:oOnly if you're sure you're not a canine :D

[wogdoggy]

i do bite baby

[RuthMayBond]

i do bite babyIn more ways than one :D Truce?

[Mike D.]

Oh please. If you really belive that I';ve got some prime swampland I can give you a good deal on.


Glad to see you can't carry on a civil discussion...is everyone in your real life who disagrees with you an idiot, too? :rolleyes:


Go do some basic research on the prime age of a baseball player. And you'll see it is 27. Only Barry Bonds has destroyed that common fact. And McGwire to a lesser but still meaningful degree. Baseball players do not naturally get better with age once they pass the prime of 27. They simply AGE.


You're 100% incorrect. Congratulations. A player BEGINS his prime at age 27, typically...and substains it for several years, usually. By their mid-30's, a player is usually beginning to decline.

McGwire hit 50+ home runs 4 years in a row, between the ages of 32 and 35. Basically, the end of his prime. After that, he went into the natural decline you'd expect a player to go through, and was done by his 38th birthday.

Bonds may be using (if the info in the book pans outs) and that may have given him added longevity and allowed his body to keep up with his added experience...which might explain why he's done so well at an advanced age.


Besides, all anyone had to do was look at the mass he had become. Gee, 61 homers stands for 40 years. Before that 60 stood for 30 years. All of a sudden we get 4, 5 guys going over 60 and over 70. Nothing unusual about that. Especially when all three guys had become the hulk!

Again, in Bonds case, you're probably right. But can you say McGwire's body changed all that much from his rookie year to 1998?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Bonds may be using (if the info in the book pans outs) and that may have given him added longevity and allowed his body to keep up with his added experience...which might explain why he's done so well at an advanced age.


Ahh, someone who gets it. Nice to see. This is the big point right here. In terms of the elevator theory. Bonds' experience elevator was near the very top, and his physical abilities elevator wasn't declining like it should have been. It was even with, or slightly above his experience elevator. A deadly combo.

[burger eater]

Again, in Bonds case, you're probably right. But can you say McGwire's body changed all that much from his rookie year to 1998?

Yes, he was built like Hercules near the end of his career.

http://www.sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/mcgwire90si-1.jpghttp://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/mlb/2000/0908/photo/a_mcgwire_i.jpghttp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/2000/postseason/news/2000/10/12/bigmac_ap/t1_mcgwire_ap.jpg

[digglahhh]

Obviously the "RACE CARD" only works with certain races.:eek:

.

There's a double standard because there actually is a double standard!

In 1970 the Veteran's Housing Act was passed. It provided guaranteed, low interest for veterans. If the borrower defaulted on the loan, the gov't would pay it, so the banks had no risk. Only caveat, it was only applicable to white veterans. Would you call that affirmative action? What about Jim Crow, poll tax and the like, affirmative action maybe?

We, white people have been playing the race card for centuries. Would you trade the centuries of privilidge granted to you because of your race for a Barry Bonds autograph?... Some people really need to put things in perspective here.

Racism is the reinforcement of prejudice through the aparatuses of power, through the state, through legislation and force. Barry Bonds not signing a baseball for a white guy is Bonds being prejudiced, a jerk and perhaps ignorant based upon your perspective- but racism my friend is something far bigger- and throwing the word around like that is not cool.

[johnny]

.

There's a double standard because there actually is a double standard!

In 1970 the Veteran's Housing Act was passed. It provided guaranteed, low interest for veterans. If the borrower defaulted on the loan, the gov't would pay it, so the banks had no risk. Only caveat, it was only applicable to white veterans. Would you call that affirmative action? What about Jim Crow, poll tax and the like, affirmative action maybe?

We, white people have been playing the race card for centuries. Would you trade the centuries of privilidge granted to you because of your race for a Barry Bonds autograph?... Some people really need to put things in perspective here.

Racism is the reinforcement of prejudice through the aparatuses of power, through the state, through legislation and force. Barry Bonds not signing a baseball for a white guy is Bonds being prejudiced, a jerk and perhaps ignorant based upon your perspective- but racism my friend is something far bigger- and throwing the word around like that is not cool.

Diggs,
If you can show that a 1970's Vets Housing Act only applied to Whites I would be highly surprised. By 1970, as a nation we had some important progress -not achievement- but serious strides nontheless in the right direction.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Yes, the color of his skin would creep its way into the discussion. At the time, I'd mentioned to my own Mother, "What if it had been Reggie, rather than Rose?" That stopped her cold, even though she wasn't a sports fan.

To me, if it's against the rules, it doesn't matter one way or the next whether you are black, white, Hispanic or Asian. Betting on baseball is betting on baseball.

Clear as mud now?

I got ya, thats what I thought you meant.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

.

There's a double standard because there actually is a double standard!

In 1970 the Veteran's Housing Act was passed. It provided guaranteed, low interest for veterans. If the borrower defaulted on the loan, the gov't would pay it, so the banks had no risk. Only caveat, it was only applicable to white veterans. Would you call that affirmative action? What about Jim Crow, poll tax and the like, affirmative action maybe?

We, white people have been playing the race card for centuries. Would you trade the centuries of privilidge granted to you because of your race for a Barry Bonds autograph?... Some people really need to put things in perspective here.

Racism is the reinforcement of prejudice through the aparatuses of power, through the state, through legislation and force. Barry Bonds not signing a baseball for a white guy is Bonds being prejudiced, a jerk and perhaps ignorant based upon your perspective- but racism my friend is something far bigger- and throwing the word around like that is not cool.

Whats the connection to the above and Barry and the revelations that he was indeed using steroids. Were blacks discriminated against years ago, still some today sure, even worse some of them lost lives. A terrible shame, some of the events of the past. So how do we connect this to Barry and whats taking place with him today, the way he and his numbers and rank are viewed.

Barry and some of his backers are now playing the race card. Let me ask this one again, if Pete Rose were black and treated the same way he has been as a white, there would be some saying he is not being treated fairly because he is black

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Barry and some of his backers are now playing the race card. Let me ask this one again, if Pete Rose were black and treated the same way he has been as a white, there would be some saying he is not being treated fairly because he is black

Absolutely, no question.

The race card would be played there as well. That card gets played so much when it's not called for; that it does a disservice to those who actually have a legit reason to play it.

[wogdoggy]

ruth may said
In more ways than one Truce?

OF COURSE TRUCE
ruth its all in fun anyway.We all love baseball,we are all americans.I love busting you and west coast..I gotta admit I sure would want you in my foxhole.YOU NEVER GIVE UP!;)

[wogdoggy]

We, white people have been playing the race card for centuries. Would you trade the centuries of privilidge granted to you because of your race for a Barry Bonds autograph?... Some people really need to put things in perspective here.


and what does barrys autograph have to do with anything.what does me being white have to do with me having privleges.There are poor whites poor everybody.I may be 20 yrs old what privys do i have? put what into perspective? give me a break.Who cares about barry bonds or his autograph or any mans autograph..what ya gettin at here?

[digglahhh]

Johnny,

The 1944 GI Bill did not extend to blacks and the had many generous housing provisions. Red-lining, barring minorities from buying property in wealthy areas, carried on past the 1970's, sometimes illegally admittedly. In fact many of the homes bought under the GI loans had clauses in the deeds stating that upon moving the owner could only sell the property to white people, in fact not even all white people, Jews were often barred too. The 1970 VHA, probably did not include those racist provisions, the Fair Housing Act was passed in '68, I think (I'm sorry, I was at work and rushing). However banks also continued racist lending practices and they had to enact Equal Loan ordinances to regulate that. Today, predatory lending is still a real problem. I, previously worked as an uncover agent to ensure that the Fair Housing Acts are followed- and they are not.

Joe,

My post was intended to question the holier than thou attitude many white people use when accusing Bonds, and other blacks, of playing the "race card." Those attitudes assume the accusor holds the moral high ground and denies the unquestionable precedent of white people "playing the race card" for centuries and benefitting from that card WAY more than blacks ever did. Its a hypocritical cheap shot to disconnect the "race card" from the history of race in society. Its a rhetorical and empty assertion. In fact, I'm am going to do some research as to the origin of the term "race card." I am willing to bet it is derived from an actual card a dominant race would have to produce in order to prove their membership and collect certain benefits. Or conversely, a card given out to minority races that would prove they were in violation of certain laws if they possesed things or partcipated in activites they were barred from. That would just be the ultimate irony, huh? If white people accused black people of playing the card that symbolizes their own marginalization...

Again, I think that Bonds being black is only a small part of this issue, and it is related in a way that is probably not even apparent, as I articulated in a previous post.

[digglahhh]

and what does barrys autograph have to do with anything.what does me being white have to do with me having privleges.There are poor whites poor everybody.I may be 20 yrs old what privys do i have? put what into perspective? give me a break.Who cares about barry bonds or his autograph or any mans autograph..what ya gettin at here?

One of the things people who play up Bonds's racism use is that he doesn't sign autographs for white people. My question was, would you rather be black and get Barry Bonds autograph or be white and get paid more money for the same jobs, receive (on average) about 1/2 the prison sentence as black people are given for the same crime, have your people be disproportinately poor, disease ridden, illegally searched, charged higher rent for the same properties, or told the propery is unavailable in the first place when it really is...

Read John Griffin's "Black Like Me." It's a good book, and still all too relevant. It is sad that it took a white man's experiment for white America to take seriously the black people's account of their own experiences.

[Williamsburg2599]

I highly highly doubt that Barry Bonds is being treated this way because hes black. I mean c'mon,Mcguire,Canceco,Sosa there all getting crap for it too. Its really unforutnite that people are still rasict like that, but Baseball is blind now-a-days.And im not saying Caucasians have it worse, but theres more rasicm at whites at my school than towords any other ethnic group.

[digglahhh]

Of course the race card would have been played, but who/what would you blame for that.

The people who would have played it, or the history of racism in our culture that cause those people to immediately be suspicous of minorities being harshly punished?

[Mattingly]

Whats the connection to the above and Barry and the revelations that he was indeed using steroids. Were blacks discriminated against years ago, still some today sure, even worse some of them lost lives. A terrible shame, some of the events of the past. So how do we connect this to Barry and whats taking place with him today, the way he and his numbers and rank are viewed.

Barry and some of his backers are now playing the race card. Let me ask this one again, if Pete Rose were black and treated the same way he has been as a white, there would be some saying he is not being treated fairly because he is black
Would he have been treated any differently than a player you may be well familiar with? Joe Jackson, for instance?

[the pyromaniac]

basically Bonds is a jerk no matter what color he is.And there you have it.:clapping

Yeah, pretty much... For me, it's got nothing to do with his skin color and everything to do with the fact that I've been saying he's been a juicer since 1998.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Of course the race card would have been played, but who/what would you blame for that.

The people who would have played it, or the history of racism in our culture that cause those people to immediately be suspicous of minorities being harshly punished?

Digg, in that case, they would be letting race cloud the actual issue, which would be the black Pete Rose's gambling and dishonesty, not his skin color. We've come a long way in this country; certainly not as far as we can go eventually but it works both ways. Who's fault is it that many blacks harbor the attitude that it's cool to not be smart and go to college? Or that they think their only way out of poverty is to make it into the NBA, or to become a rapper? Who's responsible for that attitude. Does it all fall on white folks?

This is obviously a touchy subject with you, and your posts have been well written on the subject. Just know, that many times, race isn't even in white people's mind, until it's brought up by black people playing the race card. That's where the main issue is. It clouds what should be the main focus. Like in this case with Barry.

[RuthMayBond]

ruth may said
In more ways than one Truce?

OF COURSE TRUCE
ruth its all in fun anyway.We all love baseball,we are all americans.I love busting you and west coast..I gotta admit I sure would want you in my foxhole.YOU NEVER GIVE UP!;)Then it's all :cool: :o ;) :D But the best part is, it's so EASY ta bust you :clapping :dance

[ndistops]

Yeah, pretty much... For me, it's got nothing to do with his skin color and everything to do with the fact that I've been saying he's been a juicer since 1998.
You think that's impressive? I called Benito Santiago being a juicer back in 2002 :D haha

[ballparks]

We all know that people are the same wherever you go.
There is good and bad in everyone.
When we learn to live, we learn to give each other what we need to survive together alive.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

You know all I have to say is the race problem whatever there is would dissapear if people would only let it go. I mean really I dont veiw a black person as any different from me at all, its only there because people make it into an issue.

And why its in baseball now I have no clue.

[digglahhh]

This is obviously a touchy subject with you, and your posts have been well written on the subject. Just know, that many times, race isn't even in white people's mind, until it's brought up by black people...

That's kind of the point isn't it?

Like the glass ceiling argument, women bring up, its called "glass" because men don't see it. Why would a white person bring up race, all it would do is serve to highlight all the advantages he is privy to? A white guy bringing race in a conversation is like Barry Bonds reminding us all about steroids, its just damning to the case 99% of the time. The white race has been on metaphoric "steroids" for centuries, in terms of being successful, being white is the ultimate sociological "performance enhancer." And its "designer" because most people don't even detect it.

I urge you guys to check out Project Implicit on Harvard's website. Take the implicit association tests and tell me if you can honestly say that you can remove race from this, or any, issue. It has been documented that even the majority of black people have been subconciously conditioned through culture, media, whatever, to associate black with bad and white with good.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ Click "demonstration" and try the "RACE IAT"

[west coast orange and black]

runningshoes originally asked "what if barry bonds was white?"
he came across a story and wanted to know what people thought about it.

whichever way one happens to believe on the subject, there is no denying that race is a hot button.
it took but 18 hours to reach 100 posts.

[wogdoggy]

all the advantages he is privy to


gee my italian grandparents came here with diddley worked hard built things investedand made someting of themselves...
what were they privy to?

a bunch of garbage.

[digglahhh]

all the advantages he is privy to


gee my italian grandparents came here with diddley worked hard built things investedand made someting of themselves...
what were they privy to?

a bunch of garbage.


BEING WHITE!

The GI Act applied to your grandparents. My grandparents were Italian too and they were dirt poor. It took a while for Italians to be accepted by mainsteam society, that's true. But the two histories aren't even close- to suggest they are is self serving ignorance.

[west coast orange and black]

whenever the "race card" is played, we each ask ourselves if the reason is legitimate or not. however, usually the conclusion is arrived at based on our own experiences, perceptions, values, and maybe even a few assumptions.

in this case, bonds wondered aloud/said to no one in particular/flatly declared to all that he is a victim. whether he is or not is secondary to me to how he, the individual, feels about it. that is, what has bonds experienced that would make him say that he is a victim of race? after all, he seems to have it all.

considering aspects such as the racial history of this nation, bonds' upbringing, and incorrect and at times made-up statements by media, maybe bonds' declaration is valid... for himself, the individual.

[wogdoggy]

The white race has been on metaphoric "steroids" for centuries, in terms of being successful, being white is the ultimate sociological "performance enhancer." And its "designer" because most people don't even detect it.


funny how they hire people at the company i'm with based on quotas.
SO what if the white guy is a better worker,he looses.
so we have an evenly number of race representation with a productivity rate that is far beyond mediocre.

[wogdoggy]

key word diglahhh HISTORY
whats the excuse today? HISTORY?

another blame you person?
black white green red dont make excuses its pathetic and it festers on itself.

whats the difference between my italian grandparents and the black ones that came with nothin?
NOTHING...
is it a fluke that there are any successful blacks?How did history affect those folks? I dont get it?

[digglahhh]

White guy to black guy: How does it make you feel that you attained your position here due to your race and not on the basis of your actual occupational qualifications?

Black guy: I don't know, why don't you tell me...


I'm done, this is my last post that doesn't relate to race specifically in terms of the Barry Bond issue.

Oh, and if there are quotas you better tell somebody- quotas have been outlawed for some time now.

[wogdoggy]

I gotcha anybody who is a successful white got it because he's white...yeah you'd better quit.

[digglahhh]

key word diglahhh HISTORY
whats the excuse today? HISTORY?

another blame you person?
black white green red dont make excuses its pathetic and it festers on itself.

whats the difference between my italian grandparents and the black ones that came with nothin?
NOTHING...
is it a fluke that there are any successful blacks? I dont get it?

I'm sorry one more.

The difference is your grandparents WEREN"T BOUGHT, SOLD, AND OWNED BY OTHER PEOPLE. Your grandparents history is this country began as people, not property! It wasn't illegal for your grandparent to learn to read! Townspeople didn't have celebrations when they hung Italians from trees. There are a million differences.

Damn right, you don't get it!

[west coast orange and black]

hot button issue, race.
many of us have lots to say.

but let's all try to keep this thread specifically in terms of the bonds/race issue.

thanx, all.

[wogdoggy]

oh i get it it creates excuse for generations of black kids to come.get off it.live now,quit grasping at excuses.if people would just go make something of themselves and quit looking for a blame.especially one from 100 yrs ago.

funny you never hear successful blacks blame slavery for their successes,just the unsuccessful.

yeah i guess i'll never get it
im too old school i guess.work hard, do good, blame nobody

[Mattingly]

I'm sorry one more.

The difference is your grandparents WEREN"T BOUGHT, SOLD, AND OWNED BY OTHER PEOPLE. Your grandparents history is this country began as people, not property! It wasn't illegal for your grandparent to learn to read! Townspeople didn't have celebrations when they hung Italians from trees. There are a million differences.

Damn right, you don't get it!
I'm not too sure if this pertains too much to Barry Bonds himself, but it did seem to answer the question about the Italian forumer who felt that we were all equal.

My basic opinion is that if Bonds were a nice person, he'd be treated as such. Look at Willie Mays, Kirby Puckett, Ken Griffey, Jr as examples. I've never heard anything negative about their personalities. Look at Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, Julius Erving.

To me, the reason people like Bonds and Albert Belle have their reputation isn't really because of race, but because they act the way they do. That, to me, is why certain individuals are beloved and others aren't.

A great black man once stood proudly in front of a multi-hued crowd at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, DC in August 28, 1963, and in his most famous and quoted of speeches, said that people shouldn't be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. If that's true, then I'd simply say that Barry isn't being judged by the color of his skin. He's being judged by what he says, which does show what's inside of his heart.

http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/kingjrbk02.jpg

http://www.mecca.org/~crights/dream.html
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.
All Barry has to do is be a decent human being and play the game cleanly, much like what others before him have done, and act decent. He doesn't need a 1,000-watt smile like what Sammy Sosa did in 1998. Even then, Sosa said that "beisbol is berry good to me". So too could it have been to Barry had he just acted properly, not used any PEDs and rid himself of the body armor.

All this is lost whenever someone mentions race, since I don't believe that many were making cheap excuses to rag on Barry because of his race. That Barry Bonds is a black male is a given that all of us acknowledge. That he could improve his personality--the content of his character--is also a given to many. And for that--and not the color of his skin--is what he's being judged upon. I find that to be perfectly fair, as it was his option to use or not use PEDs, and it was his option to use or not use body armor, as it was to be nice or stand-offish.

To me, there's nothing to complain about in that, with race being no exception, as that's the way this individual believes everyone should be judged upon--what they say and do.

[digglahhh]

I will readily agree that Barry Bonds has done nothing to help himself overcome whatever bigotry he has encountered.

But he has also not shut-up about racism just because he is rich- so many basically take "hush money" to fall in line with the "official" version of current events or history.

From a personal stance, Bonds has not made an attempt to be likable, so he shouldn't be surprised when he is disliked. However it is his right to refuse to be a minstrel, to any degree. He just shouldn't be surprised at the way he is treated.

I've said this before, but perhaps he is misunderstood. But even if you assume that he is, if he makes no attempts to clarify himself and correct those misunderstanings he must bear at least part of the responsibility for them. Partial guilt, by negligence.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ the position for some is: "what i am is known by some, the others need not guess."

[west coast orange and black]

agreed, two-three, that one ought to be judged by one's own words and actions. it's just that we know that this is not the way of the world. we know that quite often, personal fears, insecurities, beliefs and ignorance, too, can be incorporated, and that it can occur very easily.

bonds is not immune. he is not a robot. cut him and he bleeds. he has his own fears, insecurities and beliefs, based on his own experiences. quite possibly he has his own reasons for believing what he does, and thinks them to be valid.

"all barry has to do..."?
we wish that it were that simple, my friend.

[Mattingly]

I will readily agree that Barry Bonds has done nothing to help himself overcome whatever bigotry he has encountered.

But he has also not shut-up about racism just because he is rich- so many basically take "hush money" to fall in line with the "official" version of current events or history.

From a personal stance, Bonds has not made an attempt to be likable, so he shouldn't be surprised when he is disliked. However it is his right to refuse to be a minstrel, to any degree. He just shouldn't be surprised at the way he is treated.

I've said this before, but perhaps he is misunderstood. But even if you assume that he is, if he makes no attempts to clarify himself and correct those misunderstanings he must bear at least part of the responsibility for them. Partial guilt, by negligence.
I'm not too sure that one has to take "hush money" in order to appeal to a broader audience. Will Smith is one of the more famous actors and former rappers, starred in blockbusters. Sometimes it's just one's overall persona which allows people to go from one group of individuals to another.

As to the "minstrel" thing you've mentioned here and before, are you saying that he's refused to be some stereotypical person whose intelligence was doubted or was scared of white folks? Sometimes that word can't be readily defined.

Still, the various examples I've given you of black men were all (to myself at least) very strong personalities, several of whom have withstood quite a bit. I personally don't feel that Barry as a baseball player was expected to play anybody's game that other athletes of different races were not expected to.

I'll agree with the "partial guilty by negligence" thing. That's why I think that bringing race into the equation is like putting a monkey wrench into the clockwork. It throws things off mercilessly and people are left focusing on everything other than what could be discussed: Barry's personality and whether or not this is likeable. That seems to be the real issue here.

[Mattingly]

agreed, two-three, that one ought to be judged by one's own words and actions. it's just that we know that this is not the way of the world. we know that quite often, personal fears, insecurities, beliefs and ignorance, too, can be incorporated, and that it can occur very easily.

bonds is not immune. he is not a robot. cut him and he bleeds. he has his own fears, insecurities and beliefs, based on his own experiences. quite possibly he has his own reasons for believing what he does, and thinks them to be valid.

"all barry has to do..."?
we wish that it were that simple, my friend.
I've been editing back and forth on that one, since I had written "heart", rather than "character", and didn't wish to misquote Dr King.

Still, I think I'd done the good Rev King very nicely.

I'll admit it's not as simplistic as "all Barry has to do", but had he been nice from the beginning, that would've helped. He could've had the same persona as McGwire, which was relatively wooden but seemed like a decent person one would enjoy having as a next-door neighbor in the regular world.

Sometimes i think I've put too much time into this one thread alone. What to say, what not to say. Always very compelling questions.

[west coast orange and black]

two-three, *being nice* helps to make one believe that that particular athlete did not use?
i don't get that.

the time that you have put in is more than likely because of your passion for baseball and your sincere belief/faith in people. it shines through.

[digglahhh]

Mattingly,

Will Smith, along with his fellow rappers, boycotted the Grammys for not televising the presentation of the Best Hip Hop Performance Award. Will Smith has spoken out against rappers resorting to caricatures that enforce racial stereotypes to sell records. I don't think Will Smith has sold out, I think its the Nellys of the world who have taken the hush money and allowed themselves to be minstrelized who have "sold out."

In terms of minsterlization, I refer to a person him/herself to be reduced to a mere entertainer. I refer to that person allowing him/herself to be manipulated to serve the interests of those above him/her. Barry Bonds is not content to just play the game and ignore larger social problems simply because he is a multimillionaire.

To me, his arrogance is the quality that is most grating.

[Mattingly]

Mattingly,

Will Smith, along with his fellow rappers, boycotted the Grammys for not televising the presentation of the Best Hip Hop Performance Award. Will Smith has spoken out against rappers resorting to caricatures that enforce racial stereotypes to sell records. I don't think Will Smith has sold out, I think its the Nellys of the world who have taken the hush money and allowed themselves to be minstrelized.

In terms of minsterlization, I refer to a person him/herself to be reduced to a mere entertainer. I refer to that person allowing him/herself to be manipulated to serve the interests of those above him/her. Barry Bonds is not content to just play the game and ignore larger social problems simply because he is a multimillionaire.

To me, his arrogance is the quality that is most grating.
I wasn't familiar with Smith's boycotting of the Grammys because of their not televising the Hip Hop portion. I remember when MTV first arrived, they were criticized for showing very little rap or hip-hop at all. Then there was "Yo, MTV Raps".

As to rappers' images (figurative) being shown, I'm not too crazy about the gangsta types who have belonged to gangs and have negative words about women, but that's just me. I'm not going to expand upon this too much.

As to Barry's not playing anyone's game that belittles blacks, which social issues do you believe that Barry Bonds has chosen not to ignore? I'm not too sure about this, as I haven't heard of him discussing many social issues.

I'm not too sure I catch you when in your last paragraph when you mention that Barry's arrogance is most grating. Care to elaborate a bit?

[wogdoggy]

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD


and what revolution are you touting diggs?curious.:waving

[digglahhh]

So, I said I was going to try to find the origin of the term "race card."

here it is: as exerpted from the following website: www.phrases.uk.org

Origin

Coined in England in the 1960s. Following an influx of immigrants into the UK in the 1950/60s the Conservative candidate in an election for the parliamentary seat of Smethwick was accused of using the slogan 'If you want a ****** neighbour - vote Labour', in an attempt to capitalise on the electorate's fears of being 'swamped' by immigrants.

This man was labeled as "playing the race card."

Quite ironic white people refer to black people's attempts to bring race into the convo with this term, steeped in pro-white roots.

Wogdoggy,

My signature is a play on Gil Scott Heron's famous poem, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.

Mattingly,

Barry's criticism of the media is one area in which I happen to agree with him, especially in terms of their priorities. Bonds also talks about the history of racism in the game and the our history. I don't believe these issues should be silenced.

His demeanor is rather irksome though. He undermines the validity of many of his comments about aforementioned issues by using them in a self-serving manner. I would welcome an athlete speaking out against the media, racism or whatever cause they feel is important enough to investigate. Bond does this not for virtous purposes, but to skirt the issue when he is the subject of criticism. That's why I have very mixed feelings about his indictments.

His ego ultimately turned to be his deadly flaw, if we are to believe the book (and my original hypothesis). Bonds could not take the fact that inferior players to him did great things because of PEDs. Instead of waiting for time to reveal the truth, he acted out of ego and decided to partake in the same behavior to prove what a true superstar would look like with chemical enhancement. Then in the face of copious evidence he denied it over and over again, instead of pleading for the mercy of the court, like Giambi. In the end, his hubris did him in.

[west coast orange and black]

the revolution will not be televised

you will not be able to stay home, brother.
you will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out.
you will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip,
skip out for beer during commercials,
because the revolution will not be televised.

the revolution will not be televised.
the revolution will not be brought to you by xerox
in 4 parts without commercial interruptions.
the revolution will not show you pictures of nixon
blowing a bugle and leading a charge by john
mitchell, general abrams and spiro agnew to eat
hog maws confiscated from a harlem sanctuary.
the revolution will not be televised.

the revolution will not be brought to you by the
schaefer award theatre and will not star natalie
woods and steve mcqueen or bullwinkle and julia.
the revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal.
the revolution will not get rid of the nubs.
the revolution will not make you look five pounds
thinner, because the revolution will not be televised, brother.

there will be no pictures of you and willie may
pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run,
or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance.
nbc will not be able predict the winner at 8:32
or report from 29 districts.
the revolution will not be televised.

there will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
there will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
there will be no pictures of whitney young being
run out of harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
there will be no slow motion or still life of roy
wilkens strolling through watts in a red, black and
green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
for just the proper occasion.

green acres, the beverly hillbillies, and hooterville
junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if dick finally gets down with
jane on search for tomorrow because black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
the revolution will not be televised.

there will be no highlights on the eleven o'clock
news and no pictures of hairy armed women
liberationists and jackie onassis blowing her nose.
the theme song will not be written by jim webb,
francis scott key, nor sung by glen campbell, tom
jones, johnny cash, englebert humperdink, or the rare earth.
the revolution will not be televised.

the revolution will not be right back after a message
about a white tornado, white lightning, or white people.
you will not have to worry about a dove in your
bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl.
the revolution will not go better with coke.
the revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath.
the revolution will put you in the driver's seat.

the revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
the revolution will be no re-run brothers;
the revolution will be live.



scott-heron's the revolution will not be televised and the bottle have both been instrumental in shaping many.

[Appling]

Personality goes a long way....way beyond race....1998 was a blast, and it didn't matter to 99% of the fans if McGwire or Sosa set the record. When Bonds broke the record, there was none of that fun, and a lot of it was because of Bonds personality.
In my mind -- and I believe to many others as well -- McGwire's record HR season in 1998 was legitimate because he came close before that season (52 in 1996 and 58 in 1997 -- before he broke the 60 barrier). Unlike Roger Maris in 1961.

Sosa in 1998 seemed "much less worthy" at that time -- although he certainly gained credibility soon after with his own three seasons over 60 homeruns!

[digglahhh]

In my mind -- and I believe to many others as well -- McGwire's record HR season in 1998 was legitimate because he came close before that season (52 in 1996 and 58 in 1997 -- before he broke the 60 barrier). Unlike Roger Maris in 1961.


Assuming you view the 52 and 58 as legit...

[Sultan_1895-1948]

That's kind of the point isn't it?

Like the glass ceiling argument, women bring up, its called "glass" because men don't see it. Why would a white person bring up race, all it would do is serve to highlight all the advantages he is privy to? A white guy bringing race in a conversation is like Barry Bonds reminding us all about steroids, its just damning to the case 99% of the time. The white race has been on metaphoric "steroids" for centuries, in terms of being successful, being white is the ultimate sociological "performance enhancer." And its "designer" because most people don't even detect it.

I urge you guys to check out Project Implicit on Harvard's website. Take the implicit association tests and tell me if you can honestly say that you can remove race from this, or any, issue. It has been documented that even the majority of black people have been subconciously conditioned through culture, media, whatever, to associate black with bad and white with good.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ Click "demonstration" and try the "RACE IAT"

There's no doubt that white people cannot see certain things and certain angles because they aren't in a black person's shoes. No denying that. What I was talking about, is how many times, regarding many issues, race should be nowhere near the conversation.

It's not an issue with anybody except for a small group with questionable motives who decide to play the race card. Again, when the race card is abused, it loses it's affect, and eventually discredits those who actually have a legit reason to bring it up.

The NBA having a "dress code." Now, to me, I see no reason why a black person cannot wear a suit and appear as a professional while at work. Certain black people immediately played the race card on that one. I'm sorry, but I don't see that. They are in a sense stereotyping themselves when they bring up the race card. A white guy who wears jeans halfway down his butt, huge gold chains, and a doo-rag is just as unprofessional as a black guy wearing that stuff.

If Barry was white, all other things being the same, I'd feel no different about him.

[Williamsburg2599]

I'm sorry one more.

The difference is your grandparents WEREN"T BOUGHT, SOLD, AND OWNED BY OTHER PEOPLE. Your grandparents history is this country began as people, not property! It wasn't illegal for your grandparent to learn to read! Townspeople didn't have celebrations when they hung Italians from trees. There are a million differences.

Damn right, you don't get it!
Im terribly sorry that my great grandparents were a**holes, i really am.but I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT THEY DID. Do some research,the Irish didnt exactly have it easy in the 20s.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan, no doubt that the card is at times tossed in for selfish and slipshod reasons only. and when done so, it actually discredits those who actually have a legit reason to bring it up.

"if barry was white, all other things being the same, i'd feel no different about him," you wrote.

well, while i already suspected that about you, it would not be that easy for some.

also, some believe that every time the race card is tossed onto the table, the cardtosser is wrong to do so.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

also, some believe that every time the race card is tossed onto the table, the cardtosser is wrong to do so.

Maybe it depends on the manner in which they toss it on the table. During the OJ trial it was thrown out and exploited to free a murderer. I resent that. The issue wasn't about race. It was about a famous athlete who had enough money to hire the best lawyeres, who then brought up the race card because they knew they were screwed. That's abuse of the card. The murder was the issue, whether he's purple or blue, two people were killed.

There's an ungodly double standard in the media. Everyone is so sensative and politcally correct about what a white guy can say about someone. If I ask; does Notre Dame need to lower their academic requirements to compete better in football? You're going to automatically assume I have malice in my heart, and the question stems from some hatred or false stereotype. Meanwhile, Charles Barkley can speak his mind on race as freely as he wants, and everyone passes it off as "oh that's just Chuck being Chuck." Those same comment reversed would get someone fired and hated on.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ which speak to the complexity of the issue.

[PopTop]

Is it possible, and I'm just throwing this out here, it's because, arguably, the greatest player ever is black?RS53, who were you referring to with this statement? If it wasn't Barry Bonds, then who was it?

[KingJ]

If Barry Bonds were Barry White, he'd sing some love songs.

[PopTop]

If Barry Bonds were Barry White, he'd sing some love songs.Well, not any longer :eek: :D

[west coast orange and black]

:laugh :laugh to both you guys.

[ndistops]

Sultan brings up a good point. Paul Hornung was roundly criticized a couple years ago for stating that ND needs to lower their requirements to "get the black athlete" despite the inescapable fact that African-Americans as a whole (and especially athletes) achieve lower grades than most. Not to say that they are necessarily less intelligent, but they achieve lower grades. Ditto Air Force football coach Fisher DeBerry being criticized for stating that black athletes are faster than most, despite the inescapable fact that most to all of the "speed positions" such as running back, wide receiver and defensive back in recent years have been filled by blacks.

I just think that in many ways this country is not ready to "compare" races in that manner, because they're worried it will promote stereotypes, when usually it doesn't, at least IMO.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I just think that in many ways this country is not ready to "compare" races in that manner, because they're worried it will promote stereotypes, when usually it doesn't, at least IMO.

The thing is, many stereotypes are based on actual facts or what has actually happened. They don't just come from nowhere. Do they apply 100% across the board, no. But if I say; purple mohawk, torn up jeans, tattoo, earing...what's the first thought that comes into your head? Punk? Rebel? Drug user? Probably had trouble in school? We base our stereotypes on what we've witnessed the majority of the time. Doesn't mean that guy isn't smart, or sensative, or a cool person, but his image projects something else. Try another one. Cowboy hat, flannel shirt, Wranglers, jacked up pickup.

As far as races, we're afraid to understand what makes us different. The scientific facts are that blacks are better athletes. They possess genetic qualities that give them an edge in certain athletic evens, period. There's nothing wrong with saying that. Can there be exceptions, sure, but for the most part, it's about how each race has evolved over time. Eskimos are usually shorter with smaller limbs and they evolved that way because of their climate. It gives them less body surface to keep warm. African Americans are generally longer limbed and taller, because of the hot climate they evolved from. They need to let out more heat to stay cool.

We should celebrate our differences and not be so dang sensitive all the time. That's my 2 cents.

[johnny]

the revolution will not be televised

you will not be able to stay home, brother.
you will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out.
you will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip,
skip out for beer during commercials,
because the revolution will not be televised.

the revolution will not be televised.
the revolution will not be brought to you by xerox
in 4 parts without commercial interruptions.
the revolution will not show you pictures of nixon
blowing a bugle and leading a charge by john
mitchell, general abrams and spiro agnew to eat
hog maws confiscated from a harlem sanctuary.
the revolution will not be televised.

the revolution will not be brought to you by the
schaefer award theatre and will not star natalie
woods and steve mcqueen or bullwinkle and julia.
the revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal.
the revolution will not get rid of the nubs.
the revolution will not make you look five pounds
thinner, because the revolution will not be televised, brother.

there will be no pictures of you and willie may
pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run,
or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance.
nbc will not be able predict the winner at 8:32
or report from 29 districts.
the revolution will not be televised.

there will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
there will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
there will be no pictures of whitney young being
run out of harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
there will be no slow motion or still life of roy
wilkens strolling through watts in a red, black and
green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
for just the proper occasion.

green acres, the beverly hillbillies, and hooterville
junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if dick finally gets down with
jane on search for tomorrow because black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
the revolution will not be televised.

there will be no highlights on the eleven o'clock
news and no pictures of hairy armed women
liberationists and jackie onassis blowing her nose.
the theme song will not be written by jim webb,
francis scott key, nor sung by glen campbell, tom
jones, johnny cash, englebert humperdink, or the rare earth.
the revolution will not be televised.

the revolution will not be right back after a message
about a white tornado, white lightning, or white people.
you will not have to worry about a dove in your
bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl.
the revolution will not go better with coke.
the revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath.
the revolution will put you in the driver's seat.

the revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
the revolution will be no re-run brothers;
the revolution will be live.



scott-heron's the revolution will not be televised and the bottle have both been instrumental in shaping many.

Thank you Westie for posting same.

I hadn't read it in awhile.
It is very good and immediately brings to mind the era.

Kind of the flip side of Letters From A Birmingham Jail by MLK which was the start of era 1963. If you haven't read it for awhile it worthy of a few minutes.
www.stanford.edu/group/King/popular_requests/frequentdocs/birmingham.pdf

[johncap]

The thing is, many stereotypes are based on actual facts or what has actually happened. They don't just come from nowhere. Do they apply 100% across the board, no. But if I say; purple mohawk, torn up jeans, tattoo, earing...what's the first thought that comes into your head? Punk? Rebel? Drug user? Probably had trouble in school? We base our stereotypes on what we've witnessed the majority of the time. Doesn't mean that guy isn't smart, or sensative, or a cool person, but his image projects something else. Try another one. Cowboy hat, flannel shirt, Wranglers, jacked up pickup.

As far as races, we're afraid to understand what makes us different. The scientific facts are that blacks are better athletes. They possess genetic qualities that give them an edge in certain athletic evens, period. There's nothing wrong with saying that. Can there be exceptions, sure, but for the most part, it's about how each race has evolved over time. Eskimos are usually shorter with smaller limbs and they evolved that way because of their climate. It gives them less body surface to keep warm. African Americans are generally longer limbed and taller, because of the hot climate they evolved from. They need to let out more heat to stay cool.

We should celebrate our differences and not be so dang sensative all the time. That's my 2 cents.
Bravo! It's the sensitivity to statements that are factual, like those above, that do nothing more than prolong animosity between the races. There's nothing wrong with saying blacks are faster or can jump higher. Hey, if Bryant Gumbel can say that the Olympics are a joke because the best athletes, ie- the black athletes, aren't there, and whites aren't outraged, then perhaps the opposite can happen without all the feigned sensitivity from the black community.

[dl4060]

Why are you patronizing me?

I'm trying to figure this all out.

I'm even starting to soften on my stance with Bonds, but I have questions and that's why I posted this and the other threads.

I've been on the outside looking in on your country since I was a child and I know racism is rampant and if Bonds is hated because he's black, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Ask me the question and if I can answer it I will. I can take it to mean I'm obviously refering to Barry Bonds, or I can take it to mean something else entirely.


The problem with Bonds is not that he is black, it is that he is a jerk. If you look hard enough for racism you can probably find it, but that does not mean it is there. Barry Bonds has never tried to be kind or civil to the public. His statements in the SI article about "they will never let him win" regarding Sosa are the type of things that weak men say. It is always easy to blame racism. There probably are some people who want Barry Bonds to go down because he is black, and there probably are some people who wish bad things on Barry Bonds because of his skin color, but there are also others who wish him to pass Babe for the same reason. Saying "I don't want Barry to break Mark Mcgwire's record because he is black" and saying "I want Barry to break Mark's record because he is black" are equally abhorrent. If Barry Bonds had the image of a gentle giant who wanted to stamp out child abuse, which was Mac's image, he would have alot more people on his side. If Barry Bonds was white he would be getting about 95% of this. He has been abrasive his whole career, so people want to see him fail. Chalking it up to skin color is an act of a weak cowardly man unable to accept responsibility for his own actions. And one more thing, your memory is weak if you think Mcgwire did not go through much, if a book comes out with the level of detail on Mac that there is on Bonds then there will be even more of an uproar. How many threads have there been on this website about Mcgwire and "is he still a hall of famer?" I find it absolutely insane that you are this oblivious to all of this. Barry Bonds would still be getting hell if he were white. To doubt that is ridiculous. Would it be quite as bad? Probably not, but the overriding factor here is his actions and his demeanor, not his skin color. This is about 95% Barry, 5% race.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

The problem with Bonds is not that he is black, it is that he is a jerk. If you look hard enough for racism you can probably find it, but that does not mean it is there. Barry Bonds has never tried to be kind or civil to the public.

Pardon the partial deletion of your post but your opening says it all, thats been my thinking all along. Whether some think it fair or not, it's Barry's mouth and actions over the years that do not endear him to the public.

One of his classics is telling us that he is wiping out some of Babe Ruth's records so "don't talk about him no more." His walking past some reporters in spring training a couple of years ago and yelling "black power" thrusting his fist in ther air. Blaming the media for the effect all the talk is having on his son and then telling them to "look at him" asking them to put the camera on his son.

Lets cut out the black nonsense, thats way down the list, it's Barry that causes his own image problems.

[runningshoes]

RS53, who were you referring to with this statement? If it wasn't Barry Bonds, then who was it?

All I was saying is that there are those..you know; the same ones who make those ridiculous choices in the ESPN polls we always critisie?...who will argue Bonds is the greatest player ever if he breaks those records.

Tell me how you drew the conclusion I was refering to anyone other Bonds?

I'm not being patronizing..you're not the first to ask that and I'm curious why you thought that.

[runningshoes]

Barry Bonds would still be getting hell if he were white.

Show me where I said he wouldn't.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

One of his classics is telling us that he is wiping out some of Babe Ruth's records so "don't talk about him no more." His walking past some reporters in spring training a couple of years ago and yelling "black power" thrusting his fist in ther air. Blaming the media for the effect all the talk is having on his son and then telling them to "look at him" asking them to put the camera on his son.

.

This is the actual statement "I got his slugging percentage and I'll take his home runs and thats it, don't talk about him no more."
Of course Barry can say what ever he pleases but why would he want to make statement such as this, whats the point.

Aaron had more class, " I dont want them to forget Babe Ruth, I only want them to remember Henry Aaron" , that close if I can recall.

I don't recall two of the great record breakers Walter Payton or Wayne Grettzky putting down those who came before them.

[scootermojo]

"This is the actual statement "I got his slugging percentage and I'll take his home runs and thats it, don't talk about him no more."
Of course Barry can say what ever he pleases but why would he want to make statement such as this, whats the point."

why would barry make a statement like this? i'll tell you why...because he's a racist pig and that's a fact!

when barry bonds played here in pittsburgh he was jealous because he thought the media was giving andy van slyke more press when, in fact, they weren't. you know what barry lowered himself to? he called andy van slyke the "great white hype" and "mr. pittsburgh". never one to be phased by sheer absurdity and stupidity, van slyke responded correctly and with class by saying, "i'm not mr. pittsburgh, mario lemieux is!" he never mentioned a word about bonds bringing race into the equation nor did anyone in the media. why? because they have class, intelligence and will not lower themselves to barry's level by bringing up something that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject or is in any way relevant.

bonds insists on playing the race card and so what if the term "race card" was invented by someone who happens to be white for immoral and despicable reasons? that in no way means that barry can't play it himself just as others do on all sides of the equation.

the fact is: he uses it as an excuse without looking in the mirror when it's so clear he's completely dellusional and defending him on such absurd accusations makes it only worse and feeds his simple mind and allows him to continue to act stupidly.

and what "racism" has bonds really endured? sure, being black, i'm 100% positive he's faced some form of discrimination just as i have by being white...yes, it can and DOES go both ways especially nowadays in this pc world. i find the term "african-american" to be offensive when it's supposed to remove "black" and it's obvious isinuation towards skin color when i'm referred to as "white" and not eurpean-american but...i don't care and it will have no effect on my life and i will never pretend it will be. bonds grew up in an affluent enviroment, surronded by wealthy athletes and continued that path so, in all honesty, i have more in common with inner city blacks than he does.

the real issue should be the fact that nobody can criticize him that's white without fearing or facing charges of racism just as i'm quite sure i'll get the same treatment for even making this post! bonds is just another part of this society that doesn't face facts and looks in the mirror and tries to deflect the issue and hide behind the cover of supposed racism.

remember when sosa got caught for using a corked bat which is an obvious and blantant infraction of the rules imposed on all players in the game? the media attention was huge for those few days/weeks and why wouldn't it be since he was a guy in the midst of having one of the greatest 4-5 year stretch of home run hitting. yet, despite the obvious reasons, pedro martinez, gary sheffield, jose canseco and dusty baker all said the media coverage was overblown because he was a player who had dark skin...P-L-E-A-S-E! reality check...HELLO!!! HE BROKE THE RULES!!!

darryl dawkins, a hall of famer in basketball, said two or three years ago on HBO that the reason the NBA is getting more european players in the league was because of some supposed conspiracy to market the game to mainstream "white" america more successfully than they could with some of the "thugs" (his term, not mine although i agree) they have in the league. get real! i guess it didn't occur to him that basketball is immensely popular around the world and it only makes sense for scouting to become global in what is the best professional basketball league on earth and therefore players from other countries will undoubtedly make it to the NBA and just might happen to be white if they are from europe.

rick nash won the MVP last year in the NBA and some insist it was because he was white! joke, that's all it is...a frickin' joke and an excuse. also, how come there was no report on him being the first white to do this or that in regards to his MVP whereas we are always forced to listen to "the first black" to do this or that or the first "african-american" to do this or that since such and such a date?

gumbel makes that completely assinine comment about the winter olympics...he's just as racist as bonds. yes, they did have the best athlete's in the world in turin at the sports that they participate in. his insinuation that blacks are somehow kept out of the winter olympics reaks of racism itself.

where's the public outcry, the backlash? of course, it's far and few between because of the fear of being labeled somehow a "racist" yet imagine the crying, marching in the streets and the burning in effigy of some people if the situation was reversed:

mcgwire stating his non-perfomance at the congressional testimony hearings and subsequently becoming an outcast, laughinstock and poster boy for PED was because of racism? clearly, mcgwire is not getting the same scrutiny and press as bonds but you wouldn't happen to think that it would have anything to do with the fact that he's not playing would you? i think it does...

wayne gretzky, mario lemieux or some other person associated with the NHL claiming that the "real" reason that jarome inginla, georges laroque, anson carter and other black players are in the NHL is because of some conspiracy by the NHL to market the game to inner city youths and black people alike. there would be rioting in the streets!

i guess mr. gumbel thinks the NHL does not have the best hockey players in the world because hockey almost 100% white around the world where it's played. blacks simply don't play hockey for various reasons not because of racism.

that would be like me saying the NFL doesn't have the best football players in the world because the leagues is 90% black and 99.9999999% american.

what did paul hornung say that was so bad? not well thought out but in no way racist. if anything, it was "jockism" at best, to coin a term. let's face it, a great chunk of athletes in the money making college sports (football and basketball) don't exactly go to college to learn the molecular structure of DNA, become the next great and innovating vascular surgeon or debate the musical influences of bach or beethoven or the musing of nieztche but take basket weaving or bowling (my favorite class in college) and use the rest of the time to hopefully pursue their athletic dreams and careers. notre dame has very high standars as far as admissions go and that's obviously going to affect their athletic department in regards to football.

racism still happens...it sucks and i, you and everyone else in the world faces it at some point in their lives to varrying degrees but it is in no way related or somehow even relevant to the matters above and especially in barry's case. two wrongs don't make a right and barry, gumbel, sheffield, dawkins, etc., are trying to do just that.

personally, it's so obvious to me that bonds did steroids even though i will give the benefit of the doubt since it's not exactly been proven...yet and it may never be. however, i could care less because so what? ruth played against only whites so couldn't we taint his numbers or put an asterisk next to them? besides, i could take all the steroids in the world and I still wouldn't be able to hit a clemens splitter or johnson fastball and probaby not even any of kip wells' 4 meat pitches.

should we even care the "moral" implifications bonds taking HGH has or throw in the "role model" factor? for being a role model...be one yourself to your own kids and...don't be an idiot parent and you won't have idiot kids.

for morality...well...that's an open ended debate on a made up thing anyway.

[digglahhh]

Im terribly sorry that my great grandparents were a**holes, i really am.but I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT THEY DID. Do some research,the Irish didnt exactly have it easy in the 20s.

I know, "Irish need not apply" they have been known as the "******* of Europe, the ******* or Boston" and so on.

But do some research?...

I have a Master's Degree in this stuff my friend, a virtual library of books, speeches and a long personal history that includes first hand experience with these issues, including but not limited to being arrested with black friends and experiencing how differently we were treated. My life is research in ths field.

[digglahhh]

Lets cut out the black nonsense, thats way down the list, it's Barry that causes his own image problems.

I actually mostly agree with this.

The race connection is there but its a winding path and not really at the FOREFRONT of this issue. Being black surely added to Barry's problems, but he has not really made an effort to correct any of his image problems, ones that may stem from race or otherwise.

[digglahhh]

I also think that many of Barry's problems and outburst can be traced back to his enormous ego and the trouble he has controlling it. Sometimes it manifests itself in the form of "the race card" sometimes in the form of just being whiny or unsurly but it is consistently self-destructive.

His whole Van Slyke complex was a manifestation of jealousy and insecurity, and the most insecure of us erect huge walls and fradulent testaments to our own glory and strength. Bonds seems like a classic example of this.

[wogdoggy]

leave me out of this i gotta catch a plane to the White miss america contest.:waving

[dl4060]

Show me where I said he wouldn't.


If you do not think he would be getting hell if he were white than what is the point of the thread. Why did you start this thread if not to say that Barry would be having it easier if he were white. I think he probably would, but the difference in his treatment would be too small to notice. If you think that Barry would be getting hell if he were white why start a thread? The underlying theme is that s substantial percentage of the white people who are harping on Barry are doing so because he is black, which is very offensive. I remember a piece on HBO's real sports a few years back where the subject was Tank Black(I think this was is name, not sure, sorry if I am wrong) who was an agent. He was getting sued by several of his clients for ripping them off. The clients were all black football players, and the NFLPA was also suing him. Black went on the show and claimed that racism was behind the charges. The reporter pointed out to him that everyone who was suing him was black, to which he made some pathetic comment like "but you have to look under the surface." Black was a weak man who was trying to blame racism for his problems, when there was none to be found. How on earth Barry thought "they" would conspire to let Mark beat Sammy I do not know, but it is the type of paranoia found in weak people unable to take responsibility for their own actions. I am sure that Barry has dealt with alot because of the color of his skin. While that may explain his actions, it does not justify them.

Did Barry really say black power in front of a bunch of reporters? That says terrible things about his character. I never heard anything about it. If Barry was white and said white power in the same situation I think we would have heard. Good people are good people regardless of their ethnicity, and criminals are the same way. During college I caught a 13 year old mexican kid(I live in socal so I am 99% sure he was mexican and not puerto rican or from some other latin group) carrying my walkman out the door of my house. Several of us caught him red-handed, and when we presented him to the police he had the nerve to say that we were being prejudiced. Barry is that type of person, he could be caught red-handed and still claim that those accusing him are doing so because of his race. It is unacceptable to even pay lip service to such an argument.

[runningshoes]

If you do not think he would be getting hell if he were white than what is the point of the thread. Why did you start this thread if not to say that Barry would be having it easier if he were white.

I started this thread to get some discussion going.

It seems to have worked.

I wasn't really sure the extent of Barry's being black had to do with the hatred.

I'm being educated.

You seem a little angry it's being discussed.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

leave me out of this i gotta catch a plane to the White miss america contest.:waving

While you're on that plane, find a TV so you can watch the all white tv show award ceremony on the all white channel. ;)

[johncap]

for morality...well...that's an open ended debate on a made up thing anyway.
I agree with most everything you said, which I guess, the way things go today brands me as racist.

Fact is OJ played the race card, and it worked. He had about as little affinity for his fellow African-Amercians as anyone could have. He wouldn't even associate with black women. Yet when it came time to save his own murderin' butt, he played it up. Yes, you're more "black' than OJ is! Unortunately for black America, this crap is what fuels real racists. I judge people on the facs as I know them. Whether an issue like this, a politician, whatever. I couldn't give a rat's ass about their race, religion or creed, although sterotypes do probably come into play, in all directions. Barry's sterotype is that of a pampered, self-righteous, rich athlete who wants all the praise but none of the responsibility.

[RuthMayBond]

leave me out of this i gotta catch a plane to the White miss america contest.:wavingWogdoggy would never get on a plane anyway. Think of the color of the box that records the flight data :laugh

[dl4060]

I started this thread to get some discussion going.

It seems to have worked.

I wasn't really sure the extent of Barry's being black had to do with the hatred.

I'm being educated.

You seem a little angry it's being discussed.

I am sorry if I seem angry. I would like to be able to make statements without my motives being questioned. If discussion is the primary motivation that is fine. The underlying tone in starting such a thread is usually to accuse white people of judging others on their race and not their character. As someone who has lived their life trying not to judge others in this way, it is very upsetting to hear suggestions(state or implied) that my feelings toward an individual are based on his race. I can see from the posts that many feel the same way I do. To many of us it seems like a dead horse, we have been told about 10,000 times that we are crucifying someone because of the color of their skin, when in this case that is clearly not what is going on. Like I said before, if you search for racism you can probably find it, but that does not mean it is there.

If you would like to discuss the Terrell Owens monday night football ad I think that would be much more appropriate. That is a case, IMO, where the pairing of a black man and a white woman caused much more drama than it otherwise would have. I think in that case there were clearly far more racial overtones. When one tries to live the right way, and is none the less attacked over and over again it is deeply frustrating. I have absolutely no problem with race being discussed, but in this case I see your motives as more to anger whites than anything else, because to me this is not much of an issue. It is very obvious to me, and I think to most, that Barry's situation would be at least 95% the same if he were white. If these are not your motives then please accept my apology. If my post had been first then the answer would have been simple, 95% Barry, 5% race. Obviously it does not seem so simple to you, and if you are trying to gauge others reactions then there is nothing wrong with that.

Like I said, many of us are tired of being told how racist we are at every turn. I remember many years ago hearing an opinion that Tony Gwynn was a great athlete but Wade Boggs worked hard. It made me sad to hear something so absurd. Gwynn and Boggs both worked their butts off to achieve greatness. I find it sad that black athletes have to deal with being labeled as "talented" as opposed to "hardworking" and the presence of such garbage in our society today is very sad. I just do not think a situation which is so obviously based on a man and not his color is the most effective place to have this discussion. I have heard far too many rants about recently about how Barry is being treated differently because of his skin, and I am weary of it, and possibly oversensitive. If it does not seem so obvious to you, and you are not doing this to upset people then please accept my apology. I think there are other places where race is more obviously a strong factor, and where this discussion would be better suited. I guess to some extent I am looking for something and finding it, as I accused others of doing above.

[Bench 5]

Ken Griffey was projected to break Aaron's record up until 5-6 years ago. He was glorified by the media and fans. I don't think that anyone had any problems with the possibility that he would break Aaron's record.

Bonds was never a media darling but his image was never that bad until the last few years. I truly think that his problem with steroids has contributed to his behavior. If he was clean and off steroids I think his personality wouldn't seem as nasty as he comes across now. Look at Canseco and Romanowski. Now they are on TV every week saying what great guys they really are.

If McGwire was on the verge of breaking Aaron's record, I think he would face just as much scrutiny as Bonds on the steroids issue. And unlike Bonds, I think McGwire would have crumpled completely.

[wogdoggy]

While you're on that plane, find a TV so you can watch the all white tv show award ceremony on the all white channel.


is the all white channel next to BET ? funny I can't find one.

[wogdoggy]

Wogdoggy would never get on a plane anyway. Think of the color of the box that records the flight data


no wonder they never work...JUST KIDDING GUYS..stop it.:laugh :gt ALL IN FUN FOLKS>

[RuthMayBond]

is the all white channel next to BET ? funny I can't find one.Try about the first twenty-five years of TV

[digglahhh]

Just a note to those who find it necessary to keep pointing out that they are not racist. Repeating that mean does not mean anything.

To those who don't detect racist undertones in your position its not necessary to tell them. To those who may, your repeated assertions that you are not racist will just read as if you are trying to convice yourself, and won't convince them.

DL,

I know I've been vocal here, but you don't have to defend yourself for me or anyone else. I mean you say 95% Bonds, 5% race, I say maybe 90/10 or so. We're basically in agreement. I've said many times here race is not a BIG part of this issue, just a small and complicated one.

As for OJ, I think that the OJ verdict actually highlighted that race is NOT the trump card in society. White people have played the race card (in reverse) in the courtrooms for a long time and rich people have used their wealth to ostensibly buy their freedom. OJ was rich, but he was black the real question was which prejudice would win out in his particular case. So he was black and guilty, but managed to buy justice anyway. That's what made some blacks happy, in a perverse way; that the black stigma was not necessarily bad enough that O.J. couldn't buy justice given the resources, the fact that he was actually guilty might have been taken as even further reduction of the stigma.

Has anybody here ever been to trial represented by a public defender?

Classism reigns supreme, and even the most conservative leaders out there fan the flames of racism to further obfuscate the omnipresence on class- divide and conquer- its worked forever.

[wogdoggy]

what about the next 25?
why is a white contest unappropriate? yet its ok to have black only.

[RuthMayBond]

As for OJ, I think that the OJ verdict actually highlighted that race is NOT the trump card in society.Does the name Mark Furman mean anything to you?

[wogdoggy]

lol...

cant we all just lighten up and get along? lol

[digglahhh]

what about the next 25?
why is a white contest unappropriate? yet its ok to have black only.

Again, would you like to trade your white privildge for your own beauty contest. These things are a pittance.

And regarding your get along comment, you seem to be the most antagonistic party in this debate.

[wogdoggy]

my white privledge?

lol..thats beautiful

[wogdoggy]

maybe you can explain these privy's.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Does the name Mark Furman mean anything to you?

Thats true , only it worked to the advantage of OJ. Mark was a gift to the "dream team". What black person would believe anything he said, even if he did at times tell the truth.

Lets be realistic, just because he lied about some racist comments he made in the past does not mean he lied about the finding of the glove. The butcher walks.

[scootermojo]

Just a note to those who find it necessary to keep pointing out that they are not racist. Repeating that mean does not mean anything.

To those who don't detect racist undertones in your position its not necessary to tell them. To those who may, your repeated assertions that you are not racist will just read as if you are trying to convice yourself, and won't convince them.

DL,

I know I've been vocal here, but you don't have to defend yourself for me or anyone else. I mean you say 95% Bonds, 5% race, I say maybe 90/10 or so. We're basically in agreement. I've said many times here race is not a BIG part of this issue, just a small and complicated one.

As for OJ, I think that the OJ verdict actually highlighted that race is NOT the trump card in society. White people have played the race card (in reverse) in the courtrooms for a long time and rich people have used their wealth to ostensibly buy their freedom. OJ was rich, but he was black the real question was which prejudice would win out in his particular case. So he was black and guilty, but managed to buy justice anyway. That's what made some blacks happy, in a perverse way; that the black stigma was not necessarily bad enough that O.J. couldn't buy justice given the resources, the fact that he was actually guilty might have been taken as further reduction of the stigma.

Has anybody here ever been to trial represented by a public defender?

yes, you are partially right that when one continuously states they are not racist that they are merely trying to convince themselves of the fact but i felt the need to express that i was not being racist in my 2 cents because of past experience and observations. back in '98 i had to defend myself in certain conversations about the home run race because i was rooting for mcgwire instead of sosa!

it still boggles my mind how anyone could consider bonds' stituation or any of the others that were mentioned in my posts or others is the result of racism or even play an integral part. sure, there are people who are routing for bonds to fall flat on his face in this whole mess because of race but those are the very, very, very small minority, rationale people know they're morons and they don't matter anyway.

in regards to oj...

as rmb stated, race DID play the trump card. a mountain of forensic evidence on one hand, race comes into the equation, fuhrman rides in with his white robe and cap and everyone all of sudden forgets that two people were brutally murdered. however, the defense did their job, did what they are paid for and oj got off...more power to him, i guess. the interesting flipside is that, for once, money and power worked for a black defendant instead of the other way around as you said.

yes, i have been to a trial with a public defender...my own!!!

[SHOELESSJOE3]

what about the next 25?
why is a white contest unappropriate? yet its ok to have black only.
Thats not a good enough come back. The point is that if it were the other way around you can be sure Al Sharpton and Jessee Jackson would pop out of the wood work, thats the point, not what happened in the past, which I certainly loath, blacks treated in some cases as less than second class citizens.

It was terrible but we just can't change the past.

[wogdoggy]

agreed we cant change the past,,but what does this "ONLY" mean for our future..Why is it politically incorrect to have white only,,but EVERY other race can have their "ONLY".

[scootermojo]

Thats not a good enough come back. The point is that if it were the other way around you can be sure Al Sharpton and Jessee Jackson would pop out of the wood work, thats the point, not what happened in the past, which I certainly loath, blacks treated in some cases as less than second class citizens.

It was terrible but we just can't change the past.


excellent post! however, having "black" only contests and the like does not change the future but rehashes the past in another form.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

While you're on that plane, find a TV so you can watch the all white tv show award ceremony on the all white channel.


is the all white channel next to BET ? funny I can't find one.

Sorta ironic ain't it. They very people who claim to want equality, are in essence segregating themselves and making an issue out of race by having their own "this" and their own "that."

[PopTop]

Tell me how you drew the conclusion I was refering to anyone other Bonds? I'm not being patronizing..you're not the first to ask that and I'm curious why you thought that.I didn't conclude that after reading several of your denials for having claimed Bonds was "arguably, the greatest player ever (is black)." But that original statement by you, in a thread that included Bonds' name in the title, certainly implied that was what you meant.

[Dasperp]

maybe you can explain these privy's

I'd say that not having to deal with the effects of your ancestors having been enslaved and denied their rights for centuries is a pretty good one.

[Dasperp]

Oh, and despite my belief that racism definitely affects the way certain athletes are viewed by the media and public, in the case of Bonds i think it's mostly that he's a jerk, and race has little to do with it.

[Mattingly]

As for OJ, I think that the OJ verdict actually highlighted that race is NOT the trump card in society. White people have played the race card (in reverse) in the courtrooms for a long time and rich people have used their wealth to ostensibly buy their freedom. OJ was rich, but he was black the real question was which prejudice would win out in his particular case. So he was black and guilty, but managed to buy justice anyway. That's what made some blacks happy, in a perverse way; that the black stigma was not necessarily bad enough that O.J. couldn't buy justice given the resources, the fact that he was actually guilty might have been taken as even further reduction of the stigma.

Has anybody here ever been to trial represented by a public defender?

Classism reigns supreme, and even the most conservative leaders out there fan the flames of racism to further obfuscate the omnipresence on class- divide and conquer- its worked forever.
Does the name Mark Furman mean anything to you?
Guys, can we somehow get back to baseball? I'd really prefer that we stuck to that subject in one way or the next. I have no idea what the OJ trial had to do with baseball, other than a retired football player was on trial for the murder of two human beings of a different race than himself.

Many people have strong views on that trial, but please save them for another forum that is willing to discuss these.

Thanks.

-Matt

[Mattingly]

what about the next 25?
why is a white contest unappropriate? yet its ok to have black only.
Again, would you like to trade your white privildge for your own beauty contest. These things are a pittance.

And regarding your get along comment, you seem to be the most antagonistic party in this debate.
Can you two just please speak to each other, rather than at each other?

Yes, race is a very strong subject, but can we just speak calmly to one another in a very civil manner?

Thanks.

[Mattingly]

Sorta ironic ain't it. They very people who claim to want equality, are in essence segregating themselves and making an issue out of race by having their own "this" and their own "that."
Actually, there are many ethnicities that have their own newspapers, radio stations, magazines. There's a Spanish broadcast of many games, including Yankee games, there are Jewish newspapers in NYC (which has a sizeable Jewish population, especially in Brooklyn), there are Spanish TV stations (Telemundo is one, and they feature the all-Spanish "Sabado Gigante" variety show).

We could go on all day, but there's many different groups that have their own news outlets. There are Korean and Arabic radio channels, since the major ones won't cover these. That's the reason some folks have gotten their own media entities, just so their news and views can be covered properly and on a daily or weekly basis.

Long story.

[wogdoggy]

matt i think diggs knows im talking to him ,I find his thoughts very interesting.

[wogdoggy]

Actually, there are many ethnicities that have their own newspapers, radio stations, magazines. There's


hey hey wheres the white one?

[dl4060]

I think a more interesting question would be, if Barry had retired, and Mcgwire was where Barry is and had exactly the same thing happen, how would he be treated? I think his treatment would be similar to Barry's, but in his case I think he would have defenders because he was a much more likeable guy. People want to see Bonds fail much more so than Mcgwire, and the person to blame for that is Barry. I can also see the possibility of even more outcry. When Kobe had his problems, the outcry was huge, because he had disappointed his fan base. When someone is loved, it hurts far more deeply to see them let us down. Pete Rose was one of the most loved athletes ever, which is why he went down so hard when he did. I think there are legions out there who are happy to see Barry fail, but if someone is already an antihero, there is little room for disappointment. It seems to me that there was little mention of steroids in 1998 because Mcgwire and Sosa were people who were easy to root for. Mac as the gentle giant, and Sammy with the megawat smile and little league homerun hop. One of my cousins got an autograph from Sammy. He said Sammy was cheerful and friendly. I guess he is a more open minded person than Barry.

[Mattingly]

Actually, there are many ethnicities that have their own newspapers, radio stations, magazines. There's


hey hey wheres the white one?
White-owned newspapers and magazines:

New York Times
USA Today
Wall Street Journal
Time Magazine
Fortune

Simple question: If I want coverage of an issue pertaining to NJ, should I read the NY Times or the Newark Star-Ledger? Which is likely to cover New Jersey closer?

By the same principle, if someone wants an issue relating to Hispanics, should they get the regular womens' mags or the Latino version of these?

If you want a certain market, you have to cater to this. That's why there's an Asian Wall Street Journal.

Got it?

[johncap]

I think his treatment would be similar to Barry's, but in his case I think he would have defenders because he was a much more likeable guy.
Um, where exactly is McGwire so likeable? He's just as surly, although admittedly not abrasive as Bonds. His "act", and that's what it was, was well choreographed because his handlers knew unless he put up a facade he'd get grief in that situation. Same for the act with his kid at the plate. It was all so phoney! Like he is. (And less you think I've only recently come to these conclusions.... I wretched watching all of that back when it was happening. I prayed Sosa would overtake him just toget him out of the limelight.

[Mattingly]

Um, where exactly is McGwire so likeable? He's just as surly, although admittedly not abrasive as Bonds. His "act", and that's what it was, was well choreographed because his handlers knew unless he put up a facade he'd get grief in that situation. Same for the act with his kid at the plate. It was all so phoney! Like he is. (And less you think I've only recently come to these conclusions.... I wretched watching all of that back when it was happening. I prayed Sosa would overtake him just toget him out of the limelight.
I remember reading earlier this week here about Mac and his batboy son. He'd asked the team to make him a batboy. Someone said that he pretty much had little involvement with his son before this.

If you know anything about this, would you care to elaborate a bit?

As to McGwire's "likeability", he didn't have to be, as he had Sosa there in the chase with him. Mac only had to be nice, whereas Sosa had the crowd affection.

Bonds, by comparison, only has himself, so that's where the difference is to me.

[BadKarma]

The thing that amazes me is that though just about everyone posting in here assures everyone else that they don't see things in a racist manner, they only judge people by their character, their race has nothing to do with it, the rate at which this thread is collecting posts and the voracity with which the poster's defend their words and attack others' tends to dispute that. Racism does exist, plain and simple. Does it play into the Bonds situation? Of course it does. Is it one of the primary players? Nope. But make no mistake, it is in the equation. The majority of people seem to agree that Bonds is a world class a$$. Is it because he speaks his mind? Is it because he relishes his privacy? Is it because he has huge ego and an unbelievable ammount of pride? Is it because he says things that get taken out of context to make him look bad? Somebody pulled out a quote earlier that Bonds said, " I have his slugging percentage, and I will have his homeruns. Then you will stop talking about him." Let me ask you this: how would you respond if you were constantly bombarded by the same questions over and over again about how you compared to Ruth? How do we know that Bonds' intention in stating what he did was not him just being exasperated about the same questions continually bombarding him? We don't.

We all, and when I say we, I mean the average people, the masses, if you will, resent "elite" people. The extraordinary people that do things that none of us average people could ever do. Jealousy is a part of human nature, like it or not. The elites that also display endearing qualities; great smile, exhibit exuberance constantly, let us be a part of their extraordinary lives, these are the one's that become our heros. We set aside our resentment of their greatness due to them allowing us to live it with them (and through them), so to speak. The elites that just want to live their lives with their families and close friends, who do not want anything to do with the masses, these are the ones that garner the majority of our resentments. How dare these people, who are blessed with great talents, not want to share their lives with us lessers? Guess what? These elites are human too, just like you and me. They have the same primal needs and fears as all other humans. What they don't always have are the same bounds and realities that the average person may have. You want to go to the store for some groceries? Go ahead, do you think there will be a lot of people there that know you and are interested in seeing what you are buying? Think there will be reporters and/or photographers around every corner trying to ask you questions and take your picture? Want to get away from it all for awhile? Go ahead, do you think the whole country will be advised that you are hiding out in your own residence?

If you don't get anything else in this post, get this: Bonds is human just like you, me, and the next man. All humans have their flaws. You can find good and you can find bad in anybody, whichever one you are looking for, you will find. You really should not judge somebody until you have experienced the same things they have. Even then it's not wise to do so. How you perceive events is more important then the event itself. We are all ego-centric, we all live in our own worlds, admittedly, some egos are bigger then others. Can you honestly say 100% how you would be perceived if by chance you were one of the elites? If a huge spotlight was put upon you and all your flaws and greatness were both lit up for everyone else to see, how would you handle it? Can you honestly say that you would not take a short cut to get a promotion or a better job? What would you do if coworkers that you were more qualified than were bypassing you for those promotions by taking shortcuts, and nothing was happening to them?

I am not defending Bonds here, but I am not persecuting him either. I just wanted to get you guys thinking.

[runningshoes]

I didn't conclude that after reading several of your denials for having claimed Bonds was "arguably, the greatest player ever (is black)." But that original statement by you, in a thread that included Bonds' name in the title, certainly implied that was what you meant.

I have never thought he is the greatest player so you're obviously misinterpreting something.

Let me break this down for you in a way you can understand.

ar·gu·a·ble

Open to argument: an arguable question, still unresolved.
That can be argued plausibly; defensible in argument: three arguable points of law.

Does that mean I'm making the argument?

Are those out there who will make the argument?

That's the context I was putting that in.

There are those who will make that argument.

I'm not one of them.

Have you wrapped your head around that yet because I'm getting tired of people putting words in my mouth.

[RBi]

Now I am humored in the amount of people who say "Barry is getting what he deserves because he is a jerk"


Folks, in making a decision at this level you must take emotions out of it.

If Barry is taking it on the chin so hard because he is a jerk...

Safe to say Cal Ripken Jr would not be treated the same if he was exposed to using roids to help him though his consecutive games played streak? because he is a class act?

or what about Craig Biggio...
How many of those hit by pitches really hit off his bat..... not his hand... but he "sold it" by jumping around and shakin his hand to get the free base...

does that make Craig a cheater? if not.... why not? because he was just doing what everyone else does.... do what it takes to create results?

hmz...

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Now I am humored in the amount of people who say "Barry is getting what he deserves because he is a jerk"


Folks, in making a decision at this level you must take emotions out of it.

If Barry is taking it on the chin so hard because he is a jerk...

Safe to say Cal Ripken Jr would not be treated the same if he was exposed to using roids to help him though his consecutive games played streak? because he is a class act?

or what about Craig Biggio...
How many of those hit by pitches really hit off his bat..... not his hand... but he "sold it" by jumping around and shakin his hand to get the free base...

does that make Craig a cheater? if not.... why not? because he was just doing what everyone else does.... do what it takes to create results?

hmz...

Getting "beaned" and making it look like a legit beaning is an artform. Are you seriously comparing that with steroids though? Can we add this to the long list of recently used methods to excuse Bonds' behavior?

[runningshoes]

Safe to say Cal Ripken Jr would not be treated the same if he was exposed to using roids to help him though his consecutive games played streak? because he is a class act?

He would be tarnished, but not hated like Bonds is.

Not likely there would be the venom we're seeing now.

[Mattingly]

Now I am humored in the amount of people who say "Barry is getting what he deserves because he is a jerk"

Folks, in making a decision at this level you must take emotions out of it.

If Barry is taking it on the chin so hard because he is a jerk...

Safe to say Cal Ripken Jr would not be treated the same if he was exposed to using roids to help him though his consecutive games played streak? because he is a class act?

or what about Craig Biggio...
How many of those hit by pitches really hit off his bat..... not his hand... but he "sold it" by jumping around and shakin his hand to get the free base...

does that make Craig a cheater? if not.... why not? because he was just doing what everyone else does.... do what it takes to create results?

hmz...
I'm no NBA hound, but I've seen the Pacers' Reggie Miller take the "sliding dive" quite a few times, to indicate that he was pushed. Someone would come near him, even a slight touch and he'd slide on the ground like he was elbowed. He turned that bluff into an artform.

I even once saw Michael Jordan trip on his teammate's Dennis Rodman's sneakers in an NBA Finals game, but the ref blew the whistle on an opposing player near Air Jordan. How dare he trip Air Jordan?

This goes back to a prior debate somewhere in this endless thread: which form of cheating, if any, is acceptable. Some mentioned Gaylor Perry of the vaseline and sandpaper routine.

I personally put only betting on baseball to be an equal sin as using PEDs to improve one's numbers. Everyone else will divide the line their own way. :)

[RBi]

Getting "beaned" and making it look like a legit beaning is an artform. Are you seriously comparing that with steroids though? Can we add this to the long list of recently used methods to excuse Bonds' behavior?



you are saying it is ok for one player to hold an "all time record" because it is an artform to deceive everyone to make it appear you got hit... which is CHEATING.... not against the rules but cheating none the less...

which falls into the same EXACT area as the Bonds issue what he did was not against any written rule... Keeping in mind that the use of roids happened only from 1998-2002... (i still say, if the testing from 2003-present did not catch him using then it would be hard to rule against him through those years as well)

cheating? yes. perhaps it is. but if you are going to take away his stats... because he cheated.... then to be fair... you should take away all the other stats from cheaters... and not just those who "cheated" with roids.

cheating is cheating... stealing signs, cork, scuffing balls, faking a hit by pitch and yes steroids.... different level? maybe... but cheating is cheating..
There should not be grey areas in these rulings... one for all, all for one.

opinions can not sway which is stronger, a hit by pitch could score the winning runs as many times as a 'roided player.. or how about stealing signs?

New York Giants (1951)

Last year, the Giants admitted they had an elaborate sign-stealing system in place at the Polo Grounds in 1951. Did it help them erase the 13½-game lead the Dodgers had in August? Did Bobby Thomson know what Ralph Branca was throwing when he hit his "Shot heard around the world?" Those questions are unanswerable, even by Thomson, who exhibited Clintonesque qualities when questioned by the Wall Street Journal. "I'd have to say more no than yes," he said, then equivocated some more before finally saying that no, he didn't steal the sign for that pitch.

But there's no doubt that the Giants cheated. Coach Herman Franks would sit in the Giants clubhouse, conveniently located past center field, and use a telescope to read the catcher's signs. He'd then set off a bell or buzzer in the Giants bullpen that would identify the next pitch, and a relay man would signal it in to the hitter.


Hmz is that going to be taken away from them because they cheated?

with that said... do i think he used...

yes... and I did not need a freakin book to come out to help me form my opinion, I felt this for years..

do i think his stats should be taken away? absolutely not... in any way shape or form....

ALSO, I love how you avoided my greater point.. what about Cal Ripken?

Roids can be used in all different ways... and have different ways to effect the human body... so not everyone will bulk up. that is a fact...:lookitup

[Sultan_1895-1948]

you are saying it is ok for one player to hold an "all time record" because it is an artform to deceive everyone to make it appear you got hit... which is CHEATING.... not against the rules but cheating none the less...



Wow. I'm speechless CubsHub. You're actually arguing for the subtle artform of fooling an umpire on a beanball, to be looked at on the same leve of steroids? Unbelievable. We'll agree to disagree, but wow, how far will you take that line of thinking? Better yet, is there anything below steroids in your eyes? If you acknowledge there are different levels, then you should understand there should also be different punishments. Since when do you get the death penalty for j-walking?

[1doug]

I dont care that Bonds is a black baseball player, he is a player to me, I dont look at the color, but the facts speak for themselves, imo. Bonds is a cheat and should be dealt with the same way Rose was.

[RBi]

Wow. I'm speechless CubsHub. You're actually arguing for the subtle artform of fooling an umpire on a beanball, to be looked at on the same leve of steroids? Unbelievable. We'll agree to disagree, but wow, how far will you take that line of thinking? Better yet, is there anything below steroids in your eyes? If you acknowledge there are different levels, then you should understand there should also be different punishments. Since when do you get the death penalty for j-walking?

Question..

what are your views on players taking Cortisone injections?

[CuriousBoston]

I don't think of Bonds as a black dude or Aaron being a black icon. I think of Aaron as BASEBALL icon and Bonds as a smarmy, cheating piece of llama poo, just like Mark Donkey poo McGuire and Rafy turtle poo Palmeiro and anyone else big or small who is a juicer, black, green or tie-dye.

Well said....llama? Not turkey?

[trosmok]

Question..

what are your views on players taking Cortisone injections?

...and I mean a true M.D., that has completed med school, passed the boards, and preferably is a mamber of the AMA (they do police themselves quite well as professionals), can prescribe otherwise dangerous or banned drugs for purely medical reasons. Cortisone shots fall into this category if administered with qualified supervision, and even some forms of steroidal therapy are allowed by MLB if the physician treating the player has received prior clearance from the office of the commissioner. Hardly a loophole, this provision allows injured players to consult with doctors and receive the best care they could receive, even in light of the abuses that seem to pervade the sport recently. On a lighter note, this thread has me wondering what if James Brown, the godfather of soul, was white? :eek: Would his music be any less beloved due to his skin color? :crazy "I feel good, na an ana na na na na , so good, so good, I got you!..."

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Question..

what are your views on players taking Cortisone injections?

No banned substance program is perfect, in any sport. Admitted the line gets blurred when we have know where to draw the line. When do we determine that a player that is injected by a doctor made neccessary because of an injury or other medical problem crosses the line, how much do we allow this player to receive those cortisone injections. Still most sports have banned substance programs, what choice is there, throw our hands in the air and say the hell with it, anything goes. That will never happen, perfect or not banned substance programs are here not only in sports but even in the work place.

Some cases may be clear cut, where it can be proven that a player was injecting on a regular basis with the only intent to boost performance. Some will be not so clear. It's here, it's not perfect but banned substance programs are a part of the sports scene.

[digglahhh]

Great post Bad Karma,

I'm sure people are tired of hearing it from me, a fresh voice is certainly appreciated.

Take a second and try to envision your life under intense scrutiny, imagine how you will feel and how you would be percieved. I have an idea of what the media would do to a public figure with my world views and interpretation of history. I would be made to seem like an unpatriotic self-delusional cook. A white Marxist who reads Malcolm X? A person making millions emphatically opposed to the very economic system that allows his wealth? A limosine-liberal, a wigger, a terrorist supporter, I mean in order to sell papers my views would be taken out of context to attack me as any of these things. But deep down I love my country and consider myself a true patriot and humanist. When complex individual perception and cognition is reduced to soundbytes and headlines you have little power over the image you project.

Of course, unlike Bonds, I would like to think that I would try to correct these misinterpretations. And, I think therein lies Barry's culpability.

[trosmok]

..... assures everyone else that they don't see things in a racist manner,...... Racism does exist, plain and simple..... How you perceive events is more important then the event itself.


We are making progress, though, and I agree the perception is often more important than the actual event. Case in point, this a.m. I heard a guy on the radio say: "Dollars earned by black Nextel Cup drivers this season: $0. Amount of money generated by hip-hop music, culture, and lifestyle products last year: $4.5 billion. Two white boys in Kangols and saggy drawers calling each other the 'N' word: Priceless."

While much of the entertainment world is searching for the next big boom, some of us baseball folks are hoping steroids, Bonds, and Selig will all be just a fading memory real soon.

[scootermojo]

Great post Bad Karma,

I'm sure people are tired of hearing it from me, a fresh voice is certainly appreciated.

Take a second and try to envision your life under intense scrutiny, imagine how you will feel and how you would be percieved. I have an idea of what the media would do to a public figure with my world views and interpretation of history. I would be made to seem like an unpatriotic self-delusional cook. A white Marxist who reads Malcolm X? A person making millions emphatically opposed to the very economic system that allows his wealth? A limosine-liberal, a wigger, a terrorist supporter, I mean in order to sell papers my views would be taken out of context to attack me as any of these things. But deep down I love my country and consider myself a true patriot and humanist. When complex individual perception and cognition is reduced to soundbytes and headlines you have little power over the image you project.

Of course, unlike Bonds, I would like to think that I would try to correct these misinterpretations. And, I think therein lies Barry's culpability.

why would he correct something that he actually did or said and actually believes.

also, how could you possibly make excuses for bonds being in the limelight, under scrutiny, etc.? he made the decision to take this path as a professional athlete and he's even a bigger idiot if he didn't know the consequences of being a star, one of the greatest ever, making millions of dollars on tv in his industry.

if it was so damn bad living his life in the line of employment he chose then why don't so many others have the same experiences with the media and public as he does? sure, there are others but it's such a minute amount. you're making it look like he's a victim and that this happens to everybody.

i can see being misquoted or misrepresented in print where you are at the mercy of the writer but in video? i've actually seen him make these comments and it doesn't matter what context they were in because anyone, including him, knew the point he was trying to make.

bonds and the very few others who have found themselves in the same postion are arrogant, assinine jerks...pure and simple...and, yes, you do have power over your image as thousands of other athletes and public figures from all walks of life prove on a daily basis. somehow bonds can't seem to do that? please....

i never heard steve spielberg blame negative reviews or poor ticket sales for "always" and "1941" because of some conceived notion of a conspiracy against jewish people!

[runningshoes]

if it was so damn bad living his life in the line of employment he chose then why don't so many others have the same experiences with the media and public as he does? sure, there are others but it's such a minute amount. you're making it look like he's a victim and that this happens to everybody.

Because the man is a sociopath?

That's not tongue in cheek either.

[digglahhh]

Bonds is an extreme example of this phenomenon and a considerable part of it is due to him, I've never denied that.

But try to find anybody who is covered consistently in the media who will tell you that they have never been misquoted or had the context of their comments stripped.

The media is not devoid of blame either. ESPN now creates the news as much as they report it. Why are there people with microphones and cameras watching T.O. do sit-ups in his driveway? Is T.O.'s abdominal routine a story? Why did the reporters stalk Bonds, even before this whole fiasco? It is because they know that if they stick a microphone in these guys' faces often enough, they'll eventually say something stupid that can be made into a story. Its kind of like entrapment.

But these guys fall for it everytime.

[scootermojo]

bonds is an extreme example of this because he makes himself the extreme with the drivel that comes out of his pie hole.

of course other people in his situation are misquoted but somehow with bonds he seems to be misquoted almost daily? come on, dude, you're beginning to look like a barry bonds apologist. look at the facts, watch the videos of him spewing moronic statements as often as he hits homers...he's not being misquoted ALL the time or even half the time. he's an ass!

i can't believe you mentioned terrell owens...who does sit ups in their driveway for the whole neighborhood to see? either some nutball or some attention starved media whore. i'm betting top dollar owens is the latter and reporters doing their job will show up and wait for something stupid to come out of his mouth because it will but that's not the reporters fault.

nobody in hockey history has ever been covered as much as wayne gretzky but i've never heard him say something nearly as stupid as 1/1000th of the stuff that bonds or owens has. i live in pittsburgh and mario lemieux is a god around here and he's basically been in the papers and on tv everyday since 1984 but i've yet to hear anything resembling the idiocy of bonds and owens come out of his mouth.

has their ever been an athlete covered as much as jordan? have you ever heard anything bad come out of his mouth even after the few stories about his gambling came out?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

The media is not devoid of blame either. Why did the reporters stalk Bonds, even before this whole fiasco? It is because they know that if they stick a microphone in these guys' faces often enough, they'll eventually say something stupid that can be made into a story. Its kind of like entrapment.
.
There may have been times when the press made more of something that Barry said or did than there should have been made. But, theres no way over all these years that he was baited or misquoted as often as some believe. He shares much of the responsibility for the way he is viewed, his words, his actions.

[runningshoes]

Bonds is an extreme example of this phenomenon and a considerable part of it is due to him, I've never denied that.

His father probably needs to shoulder a little bit of the responsibilty.

I'd be ashamed of myself if that man was my son.

[digglahhh]

Again, I have never stated that a lot of Barry's troubles aren't his own fault.

Bonds undermines the integrity of even the valid criticisms he makes of the media by spewing them disingeniously. If Bonds were to speak out against the media altuistically, out of general concern or through the lens of public interest his comments, especially the valid ones, would go a lot further with me. The fact that he makes these comments most often to downplay his role in his own poor image irks me. Not only does it discredit his case, but it helps stigmatize those viewpoints as "excuses." They are real and valid criticisms, but he devalues them when he uses them selfishly. Bias in the corporate media doesn't seem like one of Barry's causes, so much as his self serving excuse.

[Brownie31]

Bonds is an extreme example of this phenomenon and a considerable part of it is due to him, I've never denied that.

But try to find anybody who is covered consistently in the media who will tell you that they have never been misquoted or had the context of their comments stripped.

The media is not devoid of blame either. ESPN now creates the news as much as they report it. Why are there people with microphones and cameras watching T.O. do sit-ups in his driveway? Is T.O.'s abdominal routine a story? Why did the reporters stalk Bonds, even before this whole fiasco? It is because they know that if they stick a microphone in these guys' faces often enough, they'll eventually say something stupid that can be made into a story. Its kind of like entrapment.

But these guys fall for it everytime.
Now you know why the media ranks below used car salesmen in polls! Brownie31

[runningshoes]

Again, I have never stated that a lot of Barry's troubles aren't his own fault.

I'd be willing to bet much of his personality disorder is through no fault of his own.

[Mattingly]

has their ever been an athlete covered as much as jordan? have you ever heard anything bad come out of his mouth even after the few stories about his gambling came out?
Yes, and probably photographed more also:

Muhammad Ali

Love him or not, he's definitely been in the news the past 45 years or so, which is probably longer than Jordan's been living. :p

[scootermojo]

i was gonna mention him but i remember him being in some hot water for some of the stuff he said...both his and not his fault.;)

[Mattingly]

i was gonna mention him but i remember him being in some hot water for some of the stuff he said...both his and not his fault.;)
Who, Ali? He was ostracized by almost the whole country because of his change of religion, as well as his refusal to serve in Viet Nam. Once the darling of the sport, then his name was mud overnight.

If not for Howard Cosell extending his friendliness and ABC's Wide World of Sports which featured his fights, as well as his having fought overseas, I doubt he'd have ever had a career.

Still, he was in a lot more hot water than Barry's ever been, but for a completely different reason.

[scootermojo]

Who, Ali? He was ostracized by almost the whole country because of his change of religion, as well as his refusal to serve in Viet Nam. Once the darling of the sport, then his name was mud overnight.

If not for Howard Cosell extending his friendliness and ABC's Wide World of Sports which featured his fights, as well as his having fought overseas, I doubt he'd have ever had a career.

Still, he was in a lot more hot water than Barry's ever been, but for a completely different reason.


being ostracized by his whole country for changing religions...not his fault.

being looked down upon and thrown in jail for refusing to serve in vietnam...his fault although i respect his stance on that one.

it was because of those two instances i didn't mention him in my post.

as far as him being in more hot water than barry's ever been...i'll admit, i was really, really, really young when the ali stuff happened i think what barry's going through may be about close and would be the same if not for ali actually going to prison for not serving in vietnam. may happen to bonds...one can only cross their fingers! also, i'm pretty sure that no matter what happens from this day forward bonds is not going to beloved like ali. he gets paraded out and after being ravaged by parkinsons and is still entertaining to conversation and he gets treated like a god and deservedly so.

i bet when bonds is 60 and is wheelchaired somewhere he's still going to be as bitter as ever and people will still hate him because that's what he deserves for having the most arrogant personality in sports history coulped with all of his false accusations.

cossell helped, no doubt, but ali's personality was well liked and that helped just the same as sosa's taken it a lot less than the others because of his personality.

[Mattingly]

being ostracized by his whole country for changing religions...not his fault.

being looked down upon and thrown in jail for refusing to serve in vietnam...his fault although i respect his stance on that one.

it was because of those two instances i didn't mention him in my post.

as far as him being in more hot water than barry's ever been...i'll admit, i was really, really, really young when the ali stuff happened i think what barry's going through may be about close and would be the same if not for ali actually going to prison for not serving in vietnam. may happen to bonds...one can only cross their fingers! also, i'm pretty sure that no matter what happens from this day forward bonds is not going to beloved like ali. he gets paraded out and after being ravaged by parkinsons and is still entertaining to conversation and he gets treated like a god and deservedly so.

i bet when bonds is 60 and is wheelchaired somewhere he's still going to be as bitter as ever and people will still hate him because that's what he deserves for having the most arrogant personality in sports history coulped with all of his false accusations.

cossell helped, no doubt, but ali's personality was well liked and that helped just the same as sosa's taken it a lot less than the others because of his personality.
With Ali, he wasn't given a license from Nevada, so that meant automatically that no other state would grant you a boxing license. Nevada boxing license = everything to a pugilist.

Ali also had tons of flair, had about the best chin I've seen in awhile, plus didn't just stand there while fighting. Still, his brilliance against Foreman was definitely masterful defensively. All those sucker punches Foreman tried sneaking in, then when Ali played the bully, rather than looking like the bully's toy, it was something.

Still, unlike Barry, Ali was stripped of his license, denied a right to fight in the USA. It's like telling Barry Bonds you can go play in Japan, the DR, Taiwan or other places, but you can't play in MLB.

I respect Michael Jordan immensely (Dr J and Bill Russell are still my faves, tho), but Ali has been through much more than Barry has. Still, during the cold war (OK, so I'm not a historian), Leonid Brezhnev refused to meet with Jimmy Carter. Whom did he see willingly? Muhammad Ali, that's who. :D

Many lesser men would've crumbled under the pressure, but Ali believed in himself, as did many of his fans.

[BadKarma]

What Mattingly missed is that actually, Ali was initially stripped of his passport as well. That meant, not only no boxing in USA, but no boxing anywhere, period. Here is a major difference between Ali and Bonds, Ali had very strong religious beliefs, and he knew how to talk. When Ali could not fight anymore, he travelled around and gave speeches at colleges to earn money. He was one of the first "celebrities" to speak out against the war in Vietnam. Somehow, I just can't bring myself to believe that Bonds could do something similiar. You also have to remember that Ali was actually a minister in the Nation of Islam at that time. Ali also was very charismatic, and understood that part of his job as a boxer was to entertain as well as fight. Bringing up Ali is almost like bringing up the exact opposite type of person as Bonds.

[Mattingly]

What Mattingly missed is that actually, Ali was initially stripped of his passport as well. That meant, not only no boxing in USA, but no boxing anywhere, period. Here is a major difference between Ali and Bonds, Ali had very strong religious beliefs, and he knew how to talk. When Ali could not fight anymore, he travelled around and gave speeches at colleges to earn money. He was one of the first "celebrities" to speak out against the war in Vietnam. Somehow, I just can't bring myself to believe that Bonds could do something similiar. You also have to remember that Ali was actually a minister in the Nation of Islam at that time. Ali also was very charismatic, and understood that part of his job as a boxer was to entertain as well as fight. Bringing up Ali is almost like bringing up the exact opposite type of person as Bonds.
I didn't get the passport stuff. I do know that when he was allowed to fight elsewhere, after having been released from prison, he'd fought European and Canadian heavyweight champions.

He was definitely one of the earlier "larger than life" sports figures. In fact, there's no way that boxers later on could've gotten anywhere near what they command if he hadn't been around. He simply revolutionized the sport's popularity.

I've never heard of Ali being accused of taking any enhancing substances, and I'm sure they were around in the '70s when he'd fought Frazier. I don't remember him sulking to the people and refusing to answer questions. People want a soundbite from "player __", give it to 'em. Ali was a poet who invented things for the media to feed off. He even gave players nicknames, ryhmed, even played the piano. He was a one-man entertainment crew, even though he wasn't even an entertainer.

I'm not asking Barry to be that outgoing, but if he could've tried the least bit to be like Ali, I'd have the utmost respect for him.

[FrenchyLefebvre]

But syllogistically, part of the reason why consider him a jerk has to do with the attitudes he espouses as a black man.

Barry is a guy who apparently has gone about things in the wrong ways who just happens to be a Black man.

You should be in Philly for games when a J.D Drew take the field there.
It's pretty safe to guarantee that Bonds (or Hannibal Lechter, for that matter) would have a more civilized reception in Philly than Drew has/ever will. (JohnCap?)

Can remember opposing teams' fans just hating/booing the stuff out of Pete Rose; "arrogant ... hot-dog" ... what have you. And it never mattered what color he was, either. Remember the "Margo" thing with Boggs, too.

It's all relative -- not color.

[BigStellyPADRES4LIFE]

That's kind of the point isn't it?

Like the glass ceiling argument, women bring up, its called "glass" because men don't see it. Why would a white person bring up race, all it would do is serve to highlight all the advantages he is privy to? A white guy bringing race in a conversation is like Barry Bonds reminding us all about steroids, its just damning to the case 99% of the time. The white race has been on metaphoric "steroids" for centuries, in terms of being successful, being white is the ultimate sociological "performance enhancer." And its "designer" because most people don't even detect it.

I urge you guys to check out Project Implicit on Harvard's website. Take the implicit association tests and tell me if you can honestly say that you can remove race from this, or any, issue. It has been documented that even the majority of black people have been subconciously conditioned through culture, media, whatever, to associate black with bad and white with good.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ Click "demonstration" and try the "RACE IAT"

Man Thats amazing.... some people are really fooled by this.... OK well racism can only be removed by those who arent racist.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Question..

what are your views on players taking Cortisone injections?

It's dangerous. Players shouldn't take them. It dulls the pain to the point of further injury if the player continues to play, from not knowing his limitations. Pain tells us our limits, with cortisone, that's all out the window. In my mind it's not performance enhancing or cheating. It's doing what you can to get back out on the field at your normal level, nothing more.

Question to you: A reliever is in the bullpen. The manager comes out for a mound visit and is stalling as long as possible until the ump breaks up the conference. Once the ump comes out the manager signals to the pen and the reliever comes out, having gained an extra 4 or 5 pitches. Is that on the same level as steroids?

A DH who is able to take extra BP work in the clubhouse during the game. He's able to take extra hacks, watch video of previous AB, and go further detail on pitching charts. Is that on the same level as steroids?

Seriously, where does it stop. What is too low to be compared with steroids, I'm genuinely curious. You seem to want to blend everything together, as if ANYTHING that is done to gain an edge should excuse what Bonds has done.

[Brownie31]

Anyone looking for solid commentary in re Bonds being a victim of racism should read Leonard Pitts, Jr.'s column in the March 20th Miami Herald. Pitts, a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist who is himself black, points out the folly of Bonds' supposed racial martyrdom. A very good read. Brownie31

[Mattingly]

Anyone looking for solid commentary in re Bonds being a victim of racism should read Leonard Pitts, Jr.'s column in the March 20th Miami Herald. Pitts, a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist who is himself black, points out the folly of Bonds' supposed racial martyrdom. A very good read. Brownie31
Do you have a link to Monday's article?

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/

[Mattingly]

In today's Detroit Free Press, Mr Pitts writes the following:

LEONARD PITTS JR.: In Barry Bonds controversy, race, again, gets batted about (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060321/OPINION03/603210322/1071)
Last week, I received an e-mail from a man named Keith in Atlanta.

He wrote: "I keep hearing and seeing all these allegations and books about Barry Bonds using steroids, but I've yet to hear one person, other than some clown trying to make a dollar by slandering his name, say they have ever seen him use them. He has not admitted to using steroids, nor has he ever tested positive, so why is the media feeding this nonsense?! ...

"I wonder if Barry were a white baseball player trying to break the homerun record if the media would entertain these unfounded allegations? ... Once again racist America has reared its ugly head ..."

It goes on, but you get the point. I wish Keith didn't feel that way, but I'm not surprised he does.

I've spent 11 years writing about race -- among other things -- in this space. In that time, two frustrating truths have become clear. The first is that many white Americans labor under the self-justifying fantasy that racism just up and disappeared 40 years ago. The second is that many black Americans labor under the equally vexing belief that racism explains everything, that it is the all-purpose excuse any time one of "us" gets in trouble, gets criticized or gets rude service in the checkout line.

[Nomtoc]

Bonds himself is a racist so he goes in the same book with all the other losers who are racists and defending him against racists is as bad a defending a klansman for his idiotic beliefs.

[Mattingly]

Bonds himself is a racist so he goes in the same book with all the other losers who are racists and defending him against racists is as bad a defending a klansman for his idiotic beliefs.
What do you believe that Bonds' racist views are?

[Nomtoc]

What do you believe that Bonds' racist views are?

I've witnessed them several times. I was friends with Dusty Baker's nephew for a few years back in college. Have sat at the same table with Babo and next table over several times during my college career. On MANY occassions I have witnessed his racism. Up until meeting him I was always told that he was one of the nicest players around. There are a few times I witnessed him constantly passing up pigmentally challenged children for autographs, even opting to give an ADULT an autograph over the child of leseser pigment.

However him being a racist is not the main reason I don't like the guy, I bet you can guess that reason.

I actually think I may hate adults getting autographs nearly as much as I hate the DH; both of which outweigh my dislike of Babo.

[digglahhh]

Anyone looking for solid commentary in re Bonds being a victim of racism should read Leonard Pitts, Jr.'s column in the March 20th Miami Herald. Pitts, a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist who is himself black, points out the folly of Bonds' supposed racial martyrdom. A very good read. Brownie31

First of all, Bonds is not a racial martyr. The notion that he is being mistreated because he is black is neither particularly widespread nor accepted.

In response to Pitts Jr's column, just as it may be lazy to label all indiscretions by blacks as the result of racism, it is often equally lazy to rule the racial element out of a stroy in which it doesn't tie neatly and obviously into.

I don't know why the columnist's own race is of particular importance here. The fact that he is black and he feels there is no racial element here doesn't mean much to me. Black people are taught the same homogenized version of history and read the same ethnocentric media forms that the rest of the country does. Black people, in fact, have been revealed to have the same implicit associations between black skin and negative traits that white people do. Its not all that simple, the cognitiive processes of persuasion and association have been scientifically determined to be more reliant on the sub-conscious than the conscious. To a degree, race is a part of everything.

Yesterday, Peter Gammons was talking about the WBC. He referenced the passion and joy of the Dominican team and the fundamentals and discipline of the Japanese team. Was he trying to be prejudiced? No, of course not, but he portrayed these teams in terms of their ethnic stereotypes because the biases of association run deep, beyond conscious perception.

Is the Barry Bonds story primarliy about racism, no. But is race a part of it, you bet! It can't not be, the inner workings of your own cognition deem it so.

[jpenrod]

Yesterday, Peter Gammons was talking about the WBC. He referenced the passion and joy of the Dominican team and the fundamentals and discipline of the Japanese team. Was he trying to be prejudiced? No, of course not, but he portrayed these teams in terms of their ethnic stereotypes because the biases of association run deep, beyond conscious perception.

What?!

Exactly how should he have referenced these teams? They are they Dominican team and the Japanese team, that is not a race thing it is a nationality thing, just as you had the American team, Korean team, Mexican Team, Cuban team, etc.

I miss your point on this one digglahhhh:confused:

[wogdoggy]

diglahh is saying we have stereotypes built in..so what.ive heard my share of typical polish jokes,italian jokes jew jokes etc..how do stereotypes become stereotypes...maybe there is truth in them or they wouldnt even be recognized.

[digglahhh]

No you missed what I said,

He was referring to what made the tournament enjoyable and specific characteristics of each team.

He said that the Dominican team was joyous and passionate and that the Japanese team was fundamental and disciplined.

The firey Hispanic and the studious Asian are the racial stereotypes.

The Japanese were intense and passionate too, they expressed joy and emotion when they suceeded. The Dominicans certainly study the intricacies of the game too. It just fits with our implicit, stereotypical associations to see the Latins as passionate and the Asians as disciplined. It wasn't intentional or mailcious, but it was a reflection in the way we are conditioned to think.

[dl4060]

"I've spent 11 years writing about race -- among other things -- in this space. In that time, two frustrating truths have become clear. The first is that many white Americans labor under the self-justifying fantasy that racism just up and disappeared 40 years ago. The second is that many black Americans labor under the equally vexing belief that racism explains everything, that it is the all-purpose excuse any time one of "us" gets in trouble, gets criticized or gets rude service in the checkout line."

This is very well put. As for Bonds' views...If he really does not sign autographs for white people that is certainly racially prejudiced. He is prejudging someone because of the color of their skin, assuming bad things about their character. While his historical interactions with whites may explain that, it does not justify it. Also, Bonds grew up in the bay area, in a nice suburb of San Francisco. While it would be absurd to think that racism did not exist there, I think it would also be absurd to believe that his expieriences were as bad as those of someone who grew up in the Jim Crow south.

[digglahhh]

how do stereotypes become stereotypes...maybe there is truth in them or they wouldnt even be recognized.

There is SOME truth in them. But often that truth is complex, its is not truth in the casual sense they are reinforced. There is no truth in the sense that Jews are genetically predisposed to being cheap or something.

And truthfully, nobody has a more irreverent sense of humor than I do. George Carlin makes my short list of role models. The important thing though is to think about the way we think and why we do. When you read the studies about persuasion, its fascinating.

Check out the Mullen studies from Syracuse about the 1984 presidential campaign.

[STLCards2]

I work in a school with mostly black students with mostly black parents. I talk with them about baseball, and I can assure you that all of my black students and their parents who follow baseball dislike Barry Bonds as much as the white people I know. Not one of them has ever brought up his race, only his arrogance, coldness, selfishness, etc.

Here in St. Louis, Mark McGwire took huge P.R. hit, as was deserved. The reason it wasn't as bad as Bonds' is simple, Mac was seen as a guy who despite not being warm and friendly to the media, was deep down a "nice guy." Bonds (who was public enemy #1 against the Cards during his Pirates days for always killing us) has always been seen as a huge jerk. Nothing to do with race.

I look at many of the most poular sports figures in the area the past 30 years...Brock, Ozzie, Gibson, Faulk, Bruce, Holt, Pujols...all black or hispanic.

Bottom line, if Bonds was a nicer human, he would be liked more. Very simple.

Heck there are even some total jerk black players who are heroes around the country...Rodman, Irvin, Owens, Moss, Kobe, etc. If everybody was really out to get black people, why aren't these guys crucified? This shows just how big of a jerk Bonds must be.

We also know how loved guys like Bill Lambeir, Romanowski, Bertuzzi, Probert, C. Lemiuex, Schiling etc. are/ have been since they were white.

[wogdoggy]

There is no truth in the sense that Jews are genetically predisposed to being cheap or something.


genetically or taught from generation to generation..asians being above average students,etc etc..jews "watching" their money.etc

[west coast orange and black]

in related news: why was the image of simpson darkened?

[runningshoes]

in related news:

Is The Juice going after 715 as well? :D

[Sultan_1895-1948]

how do stereotypes become stereotypes...maybe there is truth in them or they wouldnt even be recognized.

:clapping Exactly.