the big hurt, and others

[west coast orange and black]

there have been threads that asked for names of suspected cheaters. the usual suspects have been players with bigger numbers or bigger size.

recently, frank thomas was given a pass by an oakland tribune staff writer, who flatly declared that thomas has not ever used performance enhancers, banned substances, or illegal drugs, adding that thomas is a "good guy".

supply current or recently retired players whom you believe above reproach when it comes to this topic.

[west coast orange and black]

here is my list:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

you get my drift.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

here is my list:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

you get my drift.

Above reproach, and above even being mentioned?

Don't you get the feeling that if we were to truly know about everyone, there wouldn't be a league anymore :eek:

[digglahhh]

There is nobody who could surface as a user who would shock me, though there are those who's guilt I would find more or less surprising.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Not even a guy that perhaps went by the name of Cecil? :atthepc

[wamby]

here is my list:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

you get my drift.

You stole my list.

[RuthMayBond]

here is my list:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

you get my drift.C'mon I would without a doubt bet your life that Rafael Belliard never used PEDs.
At least not much.
At least not so's it mattered.

[Mike D.]

C'mon I would without a doubt bet your life that Rafael Belliard never used PEDs.
At least not much.
At least not so's it mattered.


Personally, I think a lot more 24/25/26th guy on the roster guys use than people seem to think. Everyone sees the HR guys...but I'd guess that users are split about 1/3 sluggers, 1/3 guys trying to hang on, and 1/3 pitchers.

[digglahhh]

C'mon I would without a doubt bet your life that Rafael Belliard never used PEDs.
At least not much.
At least not so's it mattered.

I'm assuming you had Alex Sanchez on your radar.

Perehaps that's why you are betting my life and not your own.

[Boston Boxer]

I say just let people use whatever they want. If they get caught (by the police) then they go to jail. Baseball stays out of it. problem solved.:crazy

[RuthMayBond]

I'm assuming you had Alex Sanchez on your radar.

Perehaps that's why you are betting my life and not your own.And because I knew you could take a joke :clapping

[RuthMayBond]

I say just let people use whatever they want. If they get caught (by the police) then they go to jail. Baseball stays out of it. problem solved.:crazySure, who needs any integrity, pro rasslin' don't

[Bench 5]

WCOB - In Frank's defense he was adamantly against steroid use as far back as the early 90's. Frank was without a doubt the most popular player in Chicago in the early to mid 90s. When Sammy Sosa, his former teammate, got huge during the late 90s with the Cubbies and stole his thunder, Thomas was very upset. Frank took a lot of heat for hitting only 30 homers a year while Sammy was jacking 60+.

Frank admitted that he experimented with steroids in high school for a short period of time. So he was open about that.

He was a big guy even when he came up to the Sox as a rookie. Anything's possible but I think what separates Frank from many other players is that he was vociferous in his anger at steroid users. He was naturally big while others were able to close the gap by illegal means.

He along with other members of the White Sox tried to purposely rig the steroid testing system in spring training 2003 so that the team would register a large number of failed tests. If they refused to take the test it would register as a fail. The reason Frank et al wanted to do this was because if the total % of steroid fails was below a certain threshhold, mandatory testing would not take affect the next year. So they figured that if they could inflate the numbers, steroid testing would become mandatory. They felt that it was a problem and they wanted baseball to do something about it. Baseball didn't allow them to do this.

Anyway, I would say Dave Eckstein is not on steroids!!

[trosmok]

supply current or recently retired players whom you believe above reproach when it comes to this topic.

1. Tony Gwynn
2. Ichiro
3. Zach Duke (testing in the minors has been more strict)

[RuthMayBond]

1. Tony GwynnHe put on weight, and look at his HR totals 95-96 then 97-98 :D

[Blackout]

Gwynn isn't above suspision in my book, although I do doubt he ever did steroids

[west coast orange and black]

Bench 5, thanx for your kind and true words of thomas.

he did admit to use during his teen years. and he did help to spearhead that 2003 white sox testing scheme in an attempt to trigger the testing clause of the 2003-2006 agreement.

but the main reason that i created this thread is because, incredibly, there are still many who simply do not get it at all. they still do not know what is going on.

in this case, a sports writer (!), pointing to thomas' physique and "good guy" image, flatly declared that thomas has not used. because of what we know of steroids and other substances, i find her position na·ïve.

unfortunately, because of the availability of substances, the fact that they were not tested for, the immense pressures to produce and achieve, and other factors, i believe that no one is beyond reproach.

when a player, though, (a fellow human being) tells me that he has not used, i do take him at his word until i can not, should that time ever arrive.

[west coast orange and black]

RMB: C'mon I would without a doubt bet your life that Rafael Belliard never used PEDs. ... At least not so's it mattered.

performance enhancers may have won a player or two a spot on a roster.
that is huge, man.

[RuthMayBond]

RMB: C'mon I would without a doubt bet your life that Rafael Belliard never used PEDs. ... At least not so's it mattered.

performance enhancers may have won a player or two a spot on a roster.
that is huge, man.I was just referring to his stats. But why the heck did Raffy stick?

[trosmok]

.... because of what we know of steroids and other substances, i find her position na·ïve.
..... the immense pressures to produce and achieve, and other factors, i believe that no one is beyond reproach.

Hmmm, I'd like to offer another beyond reproach player: Ken Griffey Jr. :clapping The man has done everything quite well (have you seen his WBC BA?) without needing any PEDs, and I suspect his slow recovery from his numerous injuries is another indicator of his clean slate. I guess that may be na ive in your estimation, but we differ greatly in that I want to believe everyone is not using, and hasn't used, unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary. More than just "his head looks bigger" stuff. I still think Canseco greatly exagerrated the percentage of dirty MLB players in order to sell books to pay his legal fees and fines, and I also think his grip on reality is tenuous at best. Junior, on the other hand, took a lowball salary to return to his hometown to play, is finally healthy again, and was one of the few bright spots in the Reds dismal '05 campaign. Do you think a 'roid addicted player would do anything like that, ever?

[west coast orange and black]

well, according to junior himself, responding to passages released from the upcoming love me, hate me: barry bonds and the making of an antihero, (jeff pearlman, harper collins, 9 may release) he did not use.

i can not go along with your placement of "need". nor does the slow recovery rate point to non-use.

i happen to not be in the "look! he's bigger! therefore he used!" camp. but there is very compelling evidence that hundreds of players have recently used. quite possibly upwards of thousands over the past couple'a decades.

steroids are not addictive, so your question, to me, is moot.

[west coast orange and black]

the "clean" list thus far submitted by bb-f members:

1. frank thomas
2. ken griffey, jr.
3. tony gwynn
4. ichiro suzuki
5. zach duke


is it just coincidence that these are "good guy" image guys?

[iPod]

Don't you get the feeling that if we were to truly know about everyone, there wouldn't be a league anymore :eek:

Yeah, probably not.

[trosmok]

...
i happen to not be in the "look! he's bigger! therefore he used!" camp.

steroids are not addictive....

I see your logic, and understand your position, but so many others use fallacious "evidence" to claim this player or that is/was a user of now banned substances. I'm no real expert, but some of the most powerfully psychological addictive substances aren't neccessarily physically addictive, and I think many PEDs, steroids and their derivetives fall in this category.

BTW, I did also offer in post #14 the names Tony Gwynn (he told me personally he never even was tempted to use the poisons he saw others abusing), Ichiro (Japanese culture has far stricter drug disciplines), and rookie phenom Zach Duke (minor league testing has been more strict and has been in place longer than MLB's rules).

interesting indeed that the list includes only good guy image players

[west coast orange and black]

^^ my bad, the list has expanded to a grand total of 5. ;)

the only "evidence" that i have, because i have not ever seen a player use, are the words of players and former players. i have absolutely no reason to not take them at their word when they describe wrongdoings. what could possibly be their motive? besides, different players, at diffeent times, saying overlapping things.

[BoofBonser26]

the "clean" list thus far submitted by bb-f members:

1. frank thomas
2. ken griffey, jr.
3. tony gwynn
4. ichiro suzuki
5. zach duke


is it just coincidence that these are "good guy" image guys?
Nope. Because about a year ago, Palmeiro would be on this list.

I agree with the posters who caution about pitchers and the 25th-man guys. Betancourt RP for the Indians, Alex Sanchez, etc.

[digglahhh]

Betancourt, I completely forgot about that, it hardly got any press in the first place, kind of bolsters this double standard thing.

[west coast orange and black]

boof, if you want palmeiro on the list, then i will oblige.
there is no "would be", only "is".

[Ubiquitous]

My list would contain one name, Steve Trachsel.

[RuthMayBond]

I'd bet your life on, uh, Julian Tavarez :D

[Ubiquitous]

Then you would be a murderer.

[ESPNFan]

1. Tony Gwynn
2. Ichiro
3. Zach Duke (testing in the minors has been more strict)

Unless you are on the 40 man roster and then your subject to MLB testing.

[BoofBonser26]

boof, if you want palmeiro on the list, then i will oblige.
there is no "would be", only "is".
No, no, not at all. I was just pointing out that if we did this list a year ago, he'd be there.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Nope. Because about a year ago, Palmeiro would be on this list.


Exactly. This list should remain blank because we can't be sure about anyone. Who would have thought Palmeiro? Who would have thought Palmeiro could point his finger to congress, look them in the eye and lie right to their faces. If that can happen, then nobody is above reproach, no matter what size he his, what style of game he plays, how many autographs he signs, or how many charities he donates to.

We have to remember that these guys see this as their job; their livelihood. If securing more money and fame means taking a substance that most everyone else is already taking, and there's no legit testing policy in place for it, why wouldn't someone take it. Health risks could be the only reason, and even then, they're overhyped, especially when you seek out and adhere to proper advice. We can't expect morals to overcome the desire to gain fame, respect, and money. We can be proud and admire those who don't fall prey, but on the surface, nobody can be assumed fully innocent imo. Think about it. I'm a huge Pujols fan, but I wouldn't be my life on him being completely clean throughout his career. No way.

[RuthMayBond]

I'm a huge Pujols fan, but I wouldn't be my life on him being completely clean throughout his career. No way.I wouldn't even bet my life on his listed age ;)

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I wouldn't even bet my life on his listed age ;)

When did that rumor start? I had never heard his age questioned until just recently on this web site.

[BoofBonser26]

When did that rumor start? I had never heard his age questioned until just recently on this web site.
Exactly. It's ludicrous.

[Ubiquitous]

Exactly. This list should remain blank because we can't be sure about anyone. Who would have thought Palmeiro?


I thought Palmeiro was doing steroids since about 2000-2001 somewhere in that area. From some internet discussions I've had over the years I would say there were quite a few people who were not surprised that Palmeiro tested positive.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I thought Palmeiro was doing steroids since about 2000-2001 somewhere in that area. From some internet discussions I've had over the years I would say there were quite a few people who were not surprised that Palmeiro tested positive.

He had a good guy image and didn't choose to bulk up the way some users do. Other than him being boyhood pals with Canseco, what lead you to suspect Palmeiro all the way back in 2000?

[Ubiquitous]

The fact that he never had a decline, that he kept going and going. Here was a player that through his youth was not a power hitter, then around 93-94 he starts hitting homers out and keeps on doing forever. Coming up through the Cubs farm system they didn't think that he was going to be a slugger they chose Grace over him in part because they thought Grace had a better chance of developing his power then Palmeiro. Then around 2002 he becomes a spokesmen for Viagra and that about clinched it for me

[Mike D.]

He had a good guy image and didn't choose to bulk up the way some users do. Other than him being boyhood pals with Canseco, what lead you to suspect Palmeiro all the way back in 2000?

Palmiero was a childhood friend of Canseco? I never heard that. Both were born in Cuba in the same year, so it's certainly possible, but I'd not heard it.

A lot has been made that in their first year as teammates with the Rangers, Raffy went from a career high of 26 HR to hitting 35 or more in 9 of the next 10 seasons.

[Mike D.]

When did that rumor start? I had never heard his age questioned until just recently on this web site.

I remember hearing it after 9/11, when all those other player ages were coming out as incorrect because the government was cracking down on work visas.

Since the government never found a problem with his records, it's probably safe to say his age what he states it is, though.

[west coast orange and black]

boof: I was just pointing out that if we did this list a year ago, he'd be there.

oh, ok. gotcha. my mistake.

[Ubiquitous]

I remember hearing it after 9/11, when all those other player ages were coming out as incorrect because the government was cracking down on work visas.

Since the government never found a problem with his records, it's probably safe to say his age what he states it is, though.

I don't think its possible for the government to find a problem with his age in the way that they find a problem with all of those latin players ages after 9-11. That was a weird sentence.

Anyway all those latin players who got busted for fake ages were found out because they had to apply for visas to get into the country. Pujols I believe did not suffer this problem because he came to this country to live at a young age. Even attended high school here.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Palmiero was a childhood friend of Canseco? I never heard that. Both were born in Cuba in the same year, so it's certainly possible, but I'd not heard it.

A lot has been made that in their first year as teammates with the Rangers, Raffy went from a career high of 26 HR to hitting 35 or more in 9 of the next 10 seasons.

A few years back when MLB had that HR derby contest at Cashman Field in Arizona, Canseco and Palmeiro were both participants and it was mentioned a few times. They went back quite a ways.