YOU Explain the Difference

[LouGehrig]

Player X gets a prescription for Growth Hormone and injects it.

Player Y takes 2000 mg of arginine and ornithine, two amino acids that occur in protein containing foods. Arginine and ornithine stimulate the pituitary gland to produce growth hormone.

The production of growth hormone helps to convert fat to muscle, increases the efficiency with which cells (mitochondria) release energy, and produces a feeling of well being.

Why is the method Player X uses frowned upon while the method Player Y uses acceptable?

[runningshoes]

I give up...tell us

[west coast orange and black]

is the prescription a valid, proper prescription?

[runningshoes]

The key word there is method, Tony.

There's no difference..That's his point, I think.

[west coast orange and black]

yeah, i saw that word, but must first get an answer to the legality of the prescription before i answer.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Player X gets a prescription for Growth Hormone and injects it.

Player Y takes 2000 mg of arginine and ornithine, two amino acids that occur in protein containing foods. Arginine and ornithine stimulate the pituitary gland to produce growth hormone.

The production of growth hormone helps to convert fat to muscle, increases the efficiency with which cells (mitochondria) release energy, and produces a feeling of well being.

Why is the method Player X uses frowned upon while the method Player Y uses acceptable?

Introducing your body to HGH in large amounts, fools your body into thinking it doesn't need to produce as much anymore. You're essentially replacing your current growth hormone, with huge amounts of the Ferrari of growth hormones.

In the second example, those amino acids that are simply stimulating what is already being produced. Much the same way Nyquil might "stimulate" whatever chemical we release in our heads, in order to go to sleep.


Is that the right answer Mr. Barker? :D

[Joltin' Joe]

Player X gets a prescription for Growth Hormone and injects it.

Player Y takes 2000 mg of arginine and ornithine, two amino acids that occur in protein containing foods. Arginine and ornithine stimulate the pituitary gland to produce growth hormone.

The production of growth hormone helps to convert fat to muscle, increases the efficiency with which cells (mitochondria) release energy, and produces a feeling of well being.

Why is the method Player X uses frowned upon while the method Player Y uses acceptable?

I highly doubt that amino acids would even come close to duplicating anything that HGH does. As a matter of fact, I believe amino acids are one tiny step above a placebo pills and vitamins.

[ESPNFan]

Player X gets a prescription for Growth Hormone and injects it.

Player Y takes 2000 mg of arginine and ornithine, two amino acids that occur in protein containing foods. Arginine and ornithine stimulate the pituitary gland to produce growth hormone.

The production of growth hormone helps to convert fat to muscle, increases the efficiency with which cells (mitochondria) release energy, and produces a feeling of well being.

Why is the method Player X uses frowned upon while the method Player Y uses acceptable?

Its a nice theoretical but practically I don't think it works. Arginine was one of the substances that Bonds was supposed to be taking at BALCO under his "Legitimate" and obviously illusionary suppliment regiment. But instead he went for the straight HGH behind the sences. If the Arginine was that effective why go for the HGH? But I see the point your trying to make.

I honestly look at these things like Creatine which is thought by some to be a borderline PED. Yeah its a naturally available substance but you would never be able to injest enough meat chicken etc to get what you can in a concentrated suppliment form. Its basicly a grey area as to not only if these things do anything significant or if taking them in forms this concentrated is infact a shortcut to gaining an unfair advantage.

[digglahhh]

Anybody remember that infomercial with the Juiceman where he holds up like 37 honeydews and is like you can get all the nutrients in 37 melons by drinking this one glass of juice. That's like how I feel about creatine...but in a bad way. Juice is cool.:crazy

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Anybody remember that infomercial with the Juiceman where he holds up like 37 honeydews and is like you can get all the nutrients in 37 melons by drinking this one glass of juice. That's like how I feel about creatine...but in a bad way. Juice is cool.:crazy

lol, yeah man. That guys eyebrows are out of control. Is he dead yet? Heck, maybe we should all start slamming carrots in our pieholes :crazy

[johnny]

lol, yeah man. That guys eyebrows are out of control. Is he dead yet? Heck, maybe we should all start slamming carrots in our pieholes :crazy

would have loved for the Juice Man to go at it mano a mano or juicer a juicer with Jack LaLaine.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

would have loved for the Juice Man to go at it mano a mano or juicer a juicer with Jack LaLaine.

lol, that's not a bad idea. Senior citizen UFC. Think you're on to something there. One sponsor right off the bat could be that polygrip stuff for your dentures.

[johnny]

lol, that's not a bad idea. Senior citizen UFC. Think you're on to something there. One sponsor right off the bat could be that polygrip stuff for your dentures.

and Depends for the other end.

[Perseas]

Player X gets a prescription for Growth Hormone and injects it.

Player Y takes 2000 mg of arginine and ornithine, two amino acids that occur in protein containing foods. Arginine and ornithine stimulate the pituitary gland to produce growth hormone.

The production of growth hormone helps to convert fat to muscle, increases the efficiency with which cells (mitochondria) release energy, and produces a feeling of well being.

Why is the method Player X uses frowned upon while the method Player Y uses acceptable?

Merchant X sells alcohol and tobacco
Merchant Y sells amphetamines and speed

Why is merchant X legitimate while merchant Y is not?
Because there are laws concerning certain things that deem them legitimate or not. The scope is the same: make money. Some choose to do so in one way. some in another....

[Biggtone23]

I'm pretty sure its physically impossible to turn fat to muscle. Fat cells are fat cells and muscle cells are muscle cells. There's no way to convert them.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The more muscle you have, the more fat you will burn.

[johncap]

Now, THIS was a funny thread to read!

[LouGehrig]

I give up...tell us


No, YOU tell us.

[LouGehrig]

is the prescription a valid, proper prescription?

Of course. There's no cheating in baseball.

[LouGehrig]

The key word there is method, Tony.

There's no difference..That's his point, I think.

Yes it is.

[LouGehrig]

Introducing your body to HGH in large amounts, fools your body into thinking it doesn't need to produce as much anymore. You're essentially replacing your current growth hormone, with huge amounts of the Ferrari of growth hormones.

In the second example, those amino acids that are simply stimulating what is already being produced. Much the same way Nyquil might "stimulate" whatever chemical we release in our heads, in order to go to sleep.


Is that the right answer Mr. Barker? :D

The problem is that once we reach full growth, usually between 13-24 (deliberatey broad range), the production of growth hormone decreases. One's pituitary produces much less GH at the age of 36 than it did at the age of 18.

Those who inject GH are NOT replacing what is being produced. They are greatly supplementing what is produced.

[LouGehrig]

I highly doubt that amino acids would even come close to duplicating anything that HGH does. As a matter of fact, I believe amino acids are one tiny step above a placebo pills and vitamins.

Science is not based on beliefs. It is fine to have beliefs, and science would cease to function without beliefs, but science must TEST beliefs.

There is not enough evidence to reveal if amino acids can stimulate the production of as much GH as can be injected, but since it is an open question, the hypothesis that they might is as valid as the hypothesis that they might not.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The problem is that once we reach full growth, usually between 13-24 (deliberatey broad range), the production of growth hormone decreases. One's pituitary produces much less GH at the age of 36 than it did at the age of 18.

Those who inject GH are NOT replacing what is being produced. They are greatly supplementing what is produced.

Exactly. That's what I was referring to, when I wrote "You're essentially replacing your current growth hormone, with huge amounts of the Ferrari of growth hormones."

The minimal amount that would be naturally produced, decreases even more when you take HGH, because your body is fooled into thinking it's ok.

I found a chart one time that layed out what HGH levels are normal at what ages. You're right, by 36-40, you're already heading down that hill.

[LouGehrig]

Its a nice theoretical but practically I don't think it works. Arginine was one of the substances that Bonds was supposed to be taking at BALCO under his "Legitimate" and obviously illusionary suppliment regiment. But instead he went for the straight HGH behind the sences. If the Arginine was that effective why go for the HGH? But I see the point your trying to make.

I honestly look at these things like Creatine which is thought by some to be a borderline PED. Yeah its a naturally available substance but you would never be able to injest enough meat chicken etc to get what you can in a concentrated suppliment form. Its basicly a grey area as to not only if these things do anything significant or if taking them in forms this concentrated is infact a shortcut to gaining an unfair advantage.

So what do you conclude?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Science is not based on beliiefs. It is fine to have beliefs, and science would cease to function without beliefs, but science must TEST beliefs.

There is not enough evidence to reveal if amino acids can stimulate the production of as much GH as can be injected, but since it is an open question, the hypothesis that they might is as valid as the hypothesis that they might not.

LG, isn't it true that proper studies cannot be done by science in regards to PED's? The reason being, there's no way to accurately duplicate the amounts/types being taken by some of these athletes. The average Joe could enter into a controlled study and gain only 10 pounds of muscle over the course of 6-8 weeks, but he will not and cannot take what these guys are taking, nor the amounts, and cannot replicate their workout patters. Any thoughts?

[LouGehrig]

Merchant X sells alcohol and tobacco
Merchant Y sells amphetamines and speed

Why is merchant X legitimate while merchant Y is not?
Because there are laws concerning certain things that deem them legitimate or not. The scope is the same: make money. Some choose to do so in one way. some in another....

Alcohol and tobacco do NOT equal amphetamines and speed ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

A legal prescription for GH and the purchasing of arginine and ornithine ARE EQUAL.

[LouGehrig]

I'm pretty sure its physically impossible to turn fat to muscle. Fat cells are fat cells and muscle cells are muscle cells. There's no way to convert them.

The CELLS are not converted. The fat in fat cells is utilized for energy. The protein ingested is converted to muscle.

Less fat because the fat was used for energy. More muscle because the ingested protein was changed to muscle.

[LouGehrig]

Now, THIS was a funny thread to read!

No, this IS a funny thread to read.

[LouGehrig]

LG, isn't it true that proper studies cannot be done by science in regards to PED's? The reason being, there's no way to accurately duplicate the amounts/types being taken by some of these athletes. The average Joe could enter into a controlled study and gain only 10 pounds of muscle over the course of 6-8 weeks, but he will not and cannot take what these guys are taking, nor the amounts, and cannot replicate their workout patters. Any thoughts?


Agree completely. There are some studies but there is conflicting evidence.

[johncap]

No, this IS a funny thread to read.
My apologies. I ASSumed since I seemed to resurrect it it had met it's demise. I see that four threads on this subject are not enough.... :clapping :lookitup

[ESPNFan]

So what do you conclude?

I conclude that If those amino acids worked as well as players think GH works then they would take them instead of sneaking GH.

Bottom line: If its over the counter as its been approved by the FDA and you think it will help you then go for it but be prepared for the consequences that large ammounts of those substances could do to you.

[ESPNFan]

Agree completely. There are some studies but there is conflicting evidence.

I have posted this elsewher ebut if you havent seen it its a great read.

Its a research project from Clinical Chemistry on Documents taken from the East German Secret police regarding their state sponcered Doping program and gives accurate info on what some of these substances could do to an already world class athlete.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1262#R4

its really eyeopening.

[Ravenlord]

Player X gets a prescription for Growth Hormone and injects it.

Player Y takes 2000 mg of arginine and ornithine, two amino acids that occur in protein containing foods. Arginine and ornithine stimulate the pituitary gland to produce growth hormone.

The production of growth hormone helps to convert fat to muscle, increases the efficiency with which cells (mitochondria) release energy, and produces a feeling of well being.

Why is the method Player X uses frowned upon while the method Player Y uses acceptable?

Player X is shaving years off his life if he takes HGH for extended periods of time and ever stops. the reason being that the body will stop manufacturing HGH. though HGH production slows with age, it doesn't outright stop without a person having some sort of disorder/disease. as well, massive doses will cause slight change to skeletal structure, and increase muscle density. this is because on an HGH program where you inject about 40 mg twice a week for a 8 months, you're getting about 11 times the amount of HGH the body is even capable of producing naturally.

Player Y is effectively taking 2 grams arginine and ornithine...or eating about 4 servings of chicken our other fowel. 2 grams of arginine and ornithine will only cause a very small increase in HGH production as the amino acids are also used in most of the "repair" functions of the body. that 2 grams is being divided into several factors of use by the body. as well, Player Y does not have to worry about his body no longer producing HGH, while at same time having slightly elevated levels of the hormone in his system compared to a non-supplement taking male of similar build.

the information there provided by my housemate's advanced human biology book.

and God help us if a player taking HGH and doing static contraction training ever had top echelon baseball talent...he'd be a threat to Sadaharu Oh's HR record.


edit: i should probably include in this that the body can't process arginine without ornithine, and ornithine's primary, and nearly only functions is the bio synthesis of arginine.

[Metal Ed]

Player X gets a prescription for Growth Hormone and injects it.

Player Y takes 2000 mg of arginine and ornithine, two amino acids that occur in protein containing foods. Arginine and ornithine stimulate the pituitary gland to produce growth hormone.

The production of growth hormone helps to convert fat to muscle, increases the efficiency with which cells (mitochondria) release energy, and produces a feeling of well being.

Why is the method Player X uses frowned upon while the method Player Y uses acceptable?


Arginine and ornithine don't even come close to being in the same universe as as actual HGH. That's just a bunch of bull that GNC wants you to believe so that aspiring bodybuilders will waste their money on worthless supplements. Also, any doctor that prescribes growth hormone to a baseball player is obviously doing so for non-medicinal purposes. He's a crooked doctor, and probably getting kick-backs from his multi-millionaire client.

I suppose that if the player is getting a prescription for HGH, he's found himself a legal loophole. Thing is, these types of drugs aren't just handed out. Pretty sure there are only certain conditions for which HGH are prescribed. I'm pretty sure that any doctor that wrote up a "HGH, for treating a home run deficiency" prescription would find himself in serious legal/professional trouble.

[west coast orange and black]

is the prescription a valid, proper prescription?

Of course. There's no cheating in baseball.

then i agree that there is no distinction.

[Metal Ed]

is the prescription a valid, proper prescription?

Of course. There's no cheating in baseball.

then i agree that there is no distinction.


How could it be valid and proper? What medical condition does the ballplayer have that requires such a prescription?

[runningshoes]

How could it be valid and proper? What medical condition does the ballplayer have that requires such a prescription?

Atopic dermatitis? :laugh

[west coast orange and black]

^^ good question. but i do not have a medical background, nor do i happen to have an answer. anyone?

but if the prescription is valid, my take on it is that there is no distinction.

[west coast orange and black]

runningshoes, are you going the "chicken or the egg" route? :waving

[runningshoes]

runningshoes, are you going the "chicken or the egg" route? :waving

Whichever way the wind takes me.

[west coast orange and black]

"atopic dermatitis" = funny :)