Baseball: Becoming more of a circus than a game?

[Astro]

Lately most of what I have seen on the forum has been about the negatives in baseball: Illegal performance enhancers, lying, using notations to signify records that were broken by "cheaters", etc.

My question to everyone is simple... is baseball becoming more of a circus than a game?

I think it is, and I blame the media and fans equally for it. Too often does the media portray players in negative lights. Most major league players, or any sport for that matter, spend time helping out their community and doing good deeds. These deeds are quickly forgot when that player messes up once, the media plasters everywhere what the player did wrong, then the fans go and buy those publications and classify that player as a "ass" or "jerk". However the damage wouldn't be as bad toward those players if the fans werent also looking for any negative to demean those players and over-shadow their accomplishments.

An example: Alex Rodriguez is hated by many, for no real reason... Sure he signed the biggest contract in sports history, at the time, but why is that a reason to badger him? Rodriguez receives a great deal of hate by fans who overlook his on and off the field achivements. If you had a job, would you not wish to make the most money possible? I think we all would, and if you say no you are most likely lying to us and yourself.

But why all the hate toward Alex Rodriguez? He gives back to his community a great deal, he rarely speaks out against players, he even saved a boy's life last year from getting hit by a truck (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/04/15/no_error_on_newbury_st_a_rod_saves_boy_from_truck/). But you rarely hear about those things, good news doesnt sell, bad news does.

The biggest example if negative publicity selling is, I'm sure you guessed it, steroids. All of the talk about the "Steroid/Juiced Era" in baseball yet only one potential Hall of Famer has tested positive for the substance. The issue has become so talked about that if it keeps up the game will lose many fans. But does the media care? No, not if they dont sell magazines, books or anything else they can find to sell. As soon as people become dis-interested in the steroid saga, they will move onto something else. Something else that sells.

It is no wonder that many baseball players do not wish to give fans autographs or talk with them anymore. Why should they put themselves at risk for something negative? But then again if they avoid talking to the press and fans, they are portrayed as selfish, not caring about anyone but themself. With the media hounding players today, it has really became a no-win situation for most.

The World Baseball Classic is now entering Round 2 and the season is about to begin, yet there are more posts about steroids on forums than anything about the game. And that's exactly what baseball is, a game. There is no life-or-death consequence if you do win or lose the World Series. Chicago had not won the World Series since the early 1900s before last year, and that city was moving along just fine.

I'm not saying I haven't made a quick judgement on players based on one-sided information, I'd be lying if I said that. But just try and remember next time you watch a game, or discuss a player in a forum. You are watching them play a game, it's a privilege for them to play and for you to be able to see them play for you. Don't think it's your right, because as soon as you do that, it's not a game anymore.

[DodgerBlue8188]

I dont think there is much talk about the WBC for a couple reasons. One, most the games arne't even on TV unless you have some type of special subscription to direct tv or whatever. I'd watch more games if they were on TV but they aren't on local television. Two, its really not what I thought it was going to be. Its still basically spring training in the way that star players are still only playing 4 or 5 innings. Not only that but a lot of good players chose not to take part in it. You got a guy like Al Leiter pitching for the US. Al Leiter reprsenting the US players? Come on now. His era was almost 6 last season. I think this will end up just lik the XFL. One time wonder. I dont see the WBC going on next season.

[Blackout]

I thought Selig planned for the WBC to be every 4 years?

[Reed Johnson]

I thought Selig planned for the WBC to be every 4 years?

The next one is in 2009. Anyways here in Canada we pretty much get all the games on TV especially if you have sattelite and get all the Sportsnet channels.

[Dasperp]

I find it interesting that the common knocks against the Sabermetric community is they don't really care about the game and just care about numbers. But if you read stuff by sabermetric writers and then read stuff by the mainstream media, you'll find that the SABR guys are far more interested in the game itself, while the mainstream media would rather write about why Milton Bradley will destroy any team he joins or how the game isn't as good as it once was.

[1doug]

Baseball is not baseball right now, it's just a business, the players care little for fans but expect more from them. Players that kids could look up to are gone and I dont see anyone right now that can step up. The sport is suffering from Greed, cheats, liars, Selig and owners that are willing to pay whatever for a mediocre team at best.

[hiddengem]

Baseball is not baseball right now, it's just a business, the players care little for fans but expect more from them. Players that kids could look up to are gone and I dont see anyone right now that can step up. The sport is suffering from Greed, cheats, liars, Selig and owners that are willing to pay whatever for a mediocre team at best.


Typical comment from somebody that doesn't have a clue.

[digglahhh]

Typical comment from somebody that doesn't have a clue.

Agreed, HG.

Insert rhetorical cliche here. Such sweeping generality, romanticism of yore, unreasonalbe expectations, uttainable standards, and generic value judgments...he managed to pack all that into three lines. Impressive.

[runningshoes]

Typical comment from somebody that doesn't have a clue.

He's obviously reacting emotionally and using a pretty wide brush to paint his picture, but he's not entirely wrong and baseball players are not necessarily to blame for what he's pointing out.

Baseball is a business. If it were not we would still be playing it for fun in cow fields.

The greed is there. How many owners don’t give a rats’ ass about the game only in so much as its profits?

Some players not only do not care about fans; they have contempt for them.

The cheating is there. It always has been.

And liars?…we all know about them.

He's probably just pissed off like I am.

[digglahhh]

Sure there was truth in his comment but its so cliche. If he really feels that way, why hang out at BBF? Being frsutrated is one thing, wholly bashing the sport and environment with blanket insults is another. Not to mention the fact that baseball was never what he is saying it isn't anymore. Blind, unrealistic romanticism...

[1doug]

Typical comment from somebody that doesn't have a clue.

No clue? Please enlighten me. I love the game and have watched for more than 30 years, I have seen the large downward spin it has taken. Would I buy a ticket and go to a game? Of course. But please, do tell where a typical comment from someone like me, clueless, is wrong?

[runningshoes]

Sure there was truth in his comment but its so cliche. If he really feels that way, why hang out at BBF? Being frsutrated is one thing, wholly bashing the sport and environment with blanket insults is another. Not to mention the fact that baseball was never what he is saying it isn't anymore. Blind, unrealistic romanticism...

Who knows?

Maybe he just doesn't know how to say what he feels.

I've been told a few times that some men have that problem. :D

[1doug]

Sure there was truth in his comment but its so cliche. If he really feels that way, why hang out at BBF? Being frsutrated is one thing, wholly bashing the sport and environment with blanket insults is another. Not to mention the fact that baseball was never what he is saying it isn't anymore. Blind, unrealistic romanticism...

1. Why hang out at BBF?
Because I love the game of baseball.

2. Bashing the sport.
Yes, I will bash and tell things how I see them, though you may feel differently, thats your opinion. When you a boo a player, for whatever reason, thats a form of bashing.

3. Blind.
Nope, I see pretty well, thanks.

4. Unrealistic
Possibly.

[lautrec]

I think what happens, is a frustration comes out when baseball keeps getting black eyes. If you've ever had a chance to listen to MLB 175 Home Plate on XM radio, then you would have heard plenty of great commentary on baseball. I think that it is key to avoid the sensationalist show like ESPN radio show (Cowherd, Kusilius, etc.), the Tony Bruno type shows, all those guys that just bash everything, and are loud and obnoxious. These shows are all about ratings, and apparently, we Americans love our dirt on our ballplayers.

It's easy to get frustrated listening to crap like that. I was listening to the US and South Africa game the other day, and for the first 3-4 innings, Barry Bonds was in the booth. Sure, Mike Schmidt and Joe Castellano lobbed softball questions up to him, but it was actually quite a nice conversation to hear. They simply chose not to focus on the negative, and talked baseball with Bonds. Say what you will about Bonds, but the guy does know baseball. Yes, he made several comments concerning money, and it seemed as if he were fairly greedy, but he did have great commentary on the game.

The game of baseball has its problems. I believe the first thing we as fans could do, to help our game, is quit demanding the silly Howard Stern-like sports programs, that feature loud mouthed know it alls, that just yell stupid crap into the camera, all for ratings.

[hiddengem]

Baseball is not baseball right now, it's just a business, the players care little for fans but expect more from them. Players that kids could look up to are gone and I dont see anyone right now that can step up. The sport is suffering from Greed, cheats, liars, Selig and owners that are willing to pay whatever for a mediocre team at best.

Well there has been 2 others posts that do a pretty good job of "enlightening" you. I'll add some things.

1) The game has ALWAYS been a business.
2) Plenty of players care for the fans, you are just looking through your "media goggles" again.

3) The game has ALWAYS had cheats and liars, from day 1.

4) There is no greed involved. It just happens to be a busniess where MILLIONS of dollars are involved, and you the fans are the reason millions are made. Players want their fair share, and they are absolutely entitled to it, because they are in fact the reason any money is made at all.

[aarond23]

Yes to all those people who think baseball is broken forever...what decade would you like to turn the clock back to?

1900-1947: No black players allowed...players are property of club for life...Black Sox scandal

1950s Yankees dominate...players are property of club for life

1960s declining attendence...players are property of club for life

1970s drug use...labor problems

1980s drug use...football begins to take over as #1 sport

1990s labor problems...steroids...no world series in 94

This is just a short list off the top of my head. There is no time in baseball history when you can say that things were 'ok' there has always been a laundry list of things 'wrong with baseball'

[Astro]

Baseball is not baseball right now, it's just a business, the players care little for fans but expect more from them. Players that kids could look up to are gone and I dont see anyone right now that can step up. The sport is suffering from Greed, cheats, liars, Selig and owners that are willing to pay whatever for a mediocre team at best.
It's funny... because people like him are EXACTLY what I make reference to in my original post...

[runningshoes]

It's funny... because people like him are EXACTLY what I make reference to in my original post...

The people who can't see the clearing through the trees or the ones who don't delude themsleves that everything is peachy?

You asked the question, so you must really be wondering what the hell is going on with the game.

[Dasperp]

Players that kids could look up to are gone and I dont see anyone right now that can step up

That's just because we know more about the players now. Mickey Mantle was everyone's idol, but he wasn't a model citizen and would probably be bashed in the press if he were playing today.

[VTSoxFan]

... Players that kids could look up to are gone and I dont see anyone right now that can step up....

From my Red Sox-centric point of view... two players who do care:

Tim Wakefield. Looked good with the Pirates in the early '90s, then lost his way and was released in Spring Training '95, and considered leaving baseball. Signed a minor-league contract with Boston in late April and went on to come in 3rd in the AL Cy Young voting. He has adopted Boston, is a yearly competitor for the Clemente award, is involved in numerous charities, and according to the Sox '05 Media Guide, "is recognized throughout [the Majors] as one of the most community minded individuals in the game." He has signed a perpetual option to remain with the Red Sox for the remainder of his career, if the Sox will have him. I don't see any reason for a parting of the ways.

On the field he is willing to do anything it takes to help his team, even pitching in relief in the lost cause of Game 3 in the '04 ALCS -- sacrificing what might have been his last start of the year in order to save the bullpen in the faint hope that there would be a competetive game the next day. He will start, he will relieve, he will close, he will pitch on 2 days' rest...

In short, Tim Wakefield is a man we can all look up to as a player and as a good and decent human being.

Brian Daubach. After nine years in the minors, he was called up to the Sox in '99, I do believe, and played several years for the Red Sox with all the heart and skill he could muster. He will never be a great ballplayer; his skills are limited. But in a sense his is a great ballplayer, because he puts his whole heart into the game. In the abysmal 2001 season, when most of the team gave up in September and played as is they just wanted to leave and go home, Dauber (and a few others) played each game as if it were the last game of the World Series. His manner of play endeared him to the fans, and after he was released following the '02 season, and signed with the White Sox, his return to Fenway in another uniform was hailed with a loud ovation. He was signed by the Red Sox again before the '04 season, and when his name came up in Opening Day introductions, the cheers for Dauber were as loud and heartfelt as even those for the greats -- Pedro, Nomar, Manny. WHen he was with the Norfolk Tides last year, fans turned out in droves in Pawtucket to see him come with his new team to play the PawSox.

Dauber's dedication to The Game (despite over 10 years in the Minors) and his desire to play his best for his teammates and the fans is inspiring. Though no longer with the club (last I knew he was an NRI for the Cards this year), he is still remembered as a fan favorite, because of his respect for the Game and for those of us who love to watch it.
-------
Baseball is not a lost cause, not as long as there are people like these two involved, and as long as there are fans who appreciate what they do for the sport, the community and the fans.

There's always sunshine behind the clouds. Sometimes it takes a while for it to shine through, but it's always there.

[wamby]

Typical comment from somebody that doesn't have a clue.

That's an interesting response from someone who has stated here that he doesn't owe the fans anything, even his best effort for the day.

[1doug]

You make good points, I have nothing against baseball itself, I still love the game, worship it even. I have been a loyal fan for many years and will continue to be so. Yes there were and always be scandals in the game, going all the way back to the beginning and going as far as the eye can see. One pointed out the service that Wakefield and Daubach provide, excellent points, and there are more than just those 2. There are good people in the game, always will be. The media today would kill players like Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, etc. However, greed is part of the game, always will be, nothing will be done about that, it's accepted. Despite it all, I stil love the game, consider myself a huge fan of the game and will continue to support it every way that I can. It is true also that the media is a big cause of the negativity that surrounds some aspects of the game and players. But the bottom line is, we all love the game and even with it's faults, will continue to do so.

[Astro]

The people who can't see the clearing through the trees or the ones who don't delude themsleves that everything is peachy?

You asked the question, so you must really be wondering what the hell is going on with the game.
It's called a rhetorical question

[Yankee Legend]

Right on Astro!!!

I've only been saying the exact same thing here for months. Antagonism almost destroyed baseball back in 1919 and its doing the same now. We need to get back to appreciating the game for what it is. And judge players for their on-filed preformances and not what they do off the filed. That's their business.

[Mattingly]

1. Baseball is not baseball right now, it's just a business, the players care little for fans but expect more from them.

2. Players that kids could look up to are gone and I dont see anyone right now that can step up.

3. The sport is suffering from Greed, cheats, liars, Selig and owners that are willing to pay whatever for a mediocre team at best.
I've separated your post into separate numbered paragraphs.

For #1, if baseball isn't baseball, then what is it? Strictly a business where players punch a clock and go home? Are you saying there's none of the pure "love of the game"?

For #2, re players that kids could look up to, who are the ones you grew up watching who'd fit that bill? What was there about them--either on- or off-the-field--which fit that bill?

For #3, re the sport's suffering, do you feel that the majority of players are just out there for the money and less interested in improving themselves? If so, is this amongst the vets, but not the youngsters?

As to cheats and liars, are you referring to the PED scandals for the cheats and the DC hearings for the liars? If not, please expand upon your statement.

As to Selig, are you referring to his treatment of the drug scandal or Selig overall?

For owners, are you referring to new owners paying for a team that merely puts fans into the seats, letting the team record be damned? Or existing owners doing this or something similar?

[runningshoes]

It's called a rhetorical question

But it's not, unless you believe it's a circus.

[Astro]

But it's not, unless you believe it's a circus.
It is becoming more of a circus than a game, for the reasons I said: Media and the fans that buy into what the media says

Proof: Spring training starting, WBC going on and all you hear about is Barry Bonds and steroids...

[1doug]

First off, i'm not trying to argue it or prove it to be my way, it's just an opinion that i have, and i am not alone on it.

#1, if baseball isn't baseball, then what is it? Strictly a business where players punch a clock and go home? Are you saying there's none of the pure "love of the game"?

Of course there is the love of the game by a lot more players than not. Some do look at it as punching a clock and going thru the motions then go home.

#2, re players that kids could look up to, who are the ones you grew up watching who'd fit that bill? What was there about them--either on- or off-the-field--which fit that bill?

When I grew up, my idols were Pete Rose, Nolan Ryan, then Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn. They were to me all a baseball player should be, then later of course came the Rose scandal. But when I had the chance to meet some of these players, they seemed genuine, so from that came more respect.

#3 re the sport's suffering, do you feel that the majority of players are just out there for the money and less interested in improving themselves? If so, is this amongst the vets, but not the youngsters?

There are players that want nothing more than the check, but for the most part, players are very interested in improving thier skills, young and old.

As to cheats and liars, are you referring to the PED scandals for the cheats and the DC hearings for the liars? If not, please expand upon your statement.

The PED scandals are what I am referring to and the fact that Raffy got caught after a convincing argument in DC made me feel good. How McGwire has acted about the whole thing has also bothered me.

As to Selig, are you referring to his treatment of the drug scandal or Selig overall?

I am not a huge fan of Selig, though he has stepped up lately with the harsher penalties, though I think they should be a lot harsher.

For owners, are you referring to new owners paying for a team that merely puts fans into the seats, letting the team record be damned? Or existing owners doing this or something similar?

As for owners, I hate the fact that they pay millions of dollars for a team that would be hard pressed to win in the minors. I think there are too many teams in baseball, it needs to downsize and maybe that would help make it more competitive.

Hope I helped you understand more now where I am coming from.

[CuriousBoston]

Lately most of what I have seen on the forum has been about the negatives in baseball: Illegal performance enhancers, lying, using notations to signify records that were broken by "cheaters", etc.

My question to everyone is simple... is baseball becoming more of a circus than a game?

I think it is, and I blame the media and fans equally for it. Too often does the media portray players in negative lights. Most major league players, or any sport for that matter, spend time helping out their community and doing good deeds. These deeds are quickly forgot when that player messes up once, the media plasters everywhere what the player did wrong, then the fans go and buy those publications and classify that player as a "ass" or "jerk". However the damage wouldn't be as bad toward those players if the fans werent also looking for any negative to demean those players and over-shadow their accomplishments.

An example: Alex Rodriguez is hated by many, for no real reason... Sure he signed the biggest contract in sports history, at the time, but why is that a reason to badger him? Rodriguez receives a great deal of hate by fans who overlook his on and off the field achivements. If you had a job, would you not wish to make the most money possible? I think we all would, and if you say no you are most likely lying to us and yourself.

But why all the hate toward Alex Rodriguez? He gives back to his community a great deal, he rarely speaks out against players, he even saved a boy's life last year from getting hit by a truck (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/04/15/no_error_on_newbury_st_a_rod_saves_boy_from_truck/). But you rarely hear about those things, good news doesnt sell, bad news does.

The biggest example if negative publicity selling is, I'm sure you guessed it, steroids. All of the talk about the "Steroid/Juiced Era" in baseball yet only one potential Hall of Famer has tested positive for the substance. The issue has become so talked about that if it keeps up the game will lose many fans. But does the media care? No, not if they dont sell magazines, books or anything else they can find to sell. As soon as people become dis-interested in the steroid saga, they will move onto something else. Something else that sells.

It is no wonder that many baseball players do not wish to give fans autographs or talk with them anymore. Why should they put themselves at risk for something negative? But then again if they avoid talking to the press and fans, they are portrayed as selfish, not caring about anyone but themself. With the media hounding players today, it has really became a no-win situation for most.

The World Baseball Classic is now entering Round 2 and the season is about to begin, yet there are more posts about steroids on forums than anything about the game. And that's exactly what baseball is, a game. There is no life-or-death consequence if you do win or lose the World Series. Chicago had not won the World Series since the early 1900s before last year, and that city was moving along just fine.

I'm not saying I haven't made a quick judgement on players based on one-sided information, I'd be lying if I said that. But just try and remember next time you watch a game, or discuss a player in a forum. You are watching them play a game, it's a privilege for them to play and for you to be able to see them play for you. Don't think it's your right, because as soon as you do that, it's not a game anymore.


My two cents:Players have earned the right to play by their talent, work, their agent's skill, and various random "chances. Spectators have the right to their opinions, justified or not. I don't understand how that makes it less of a game. Every spectator sport has spectators with opinions. Chess has spectators with opinions.How does that make it not a game?

I do agree, it may seem like a circus at times. I think liking or disliking a player such as ARod is very different from having an opinion about Bonds and steroids.

[trosmok]

No, baseball is too much of a business to be merely a game, and too dear a game to us to be strictly a business. It in no way shape or form resembles a circus, unless they start torturing animals between innings at Shea, or have the Philly cops dressed as clowns pile into tiny taxis during pre-game warm-ups. Baseball and the players who earn a living at it, make it easily the most intensely competitive entertainment, considering how many players there are, and how many games are played each season, and the skill level required to even make it to A ball.

I watched the most fascinating piece over the weekend on Gumble's Real Sports on HBO, and I'd like anyone here to tell Danny Graves, the Vietnam Veterans, and the children of Hue, Hanoi, and Ho Chi Minh city our game is becoming a circus. For more, see:

http://www.thevirtualwall.org/index.cfm?SectionID=424

[Mike D.]

What is it that makes people long for the "good old days"...days that didn't actually exist? And why do the "good old days" always happen to have existed in the exact years the person talking about them is between the ages of 8 and 16? :confused:

I couldn't find it...but there's a great quote about how the game is dying, the players aren't as tough as they once were, etc...from like, 1903. :D

[west coast orange and black]

1doug: Baseball is not baseball right now...

while baseball stopped being a way for gentlemen to spend their sunday afternoons and became a business 100 years ago, corraling all players into the same pens marked "greedy", "cheating", "lying" is a disservice to them as people. in the end, players are just people who happen to be talented enough to hold down a certain job.

baseball does not own a monopoly on miscreants.
i am sure that baseball represents a slice of the citizenry - and everything that people are, good and not-so - in much the same way as other professions.

why focus on the negative, doug?

[west coast orange and black]

what you wrote, mike d., made me kind of chuckle.

these just happen to be the "good ol' days" for many.
the way that 20 years ago were the "good ol' days" for many.
the way that 40 years ago were...

[digglahhh]

What is it that makes people long for the "good old days"...days that didn't actually exist? And why do the "good old days" always happen to have existed in the exact years the person talking about them is between the ages of 8 and 16? :confused:

I couldn't find it...but there's a great quote about how the game is dying, the players aren't as tough as they once were, etc...from like, 1903. :D

"The good old days weren't always so good and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems." -Billy Joel

[Mattingly]

What is it that makes people long for the "good old days"...days that didn't actually exist? And why do the "good old days" always happen to have existed in the exact years the person talking about them is between the ages of 8 and 16? :confused:
Because at that age, people were looking at the game for the pure love and joy of it, when it was first instilled upon you. In short, it really was a game back then, and not much about business. Could've really been my blissful ignorance of the business side of things. Still, who wants a 10-year-old talking that business stuff anyway?

When I was that young, I wasn't worried about free agency, players passing drug tests, extensions, player contracts, club options, incentivized contracts and the like. It was purely strategy, hits, fielding, turning the DP, etc.

When people were young, had a girlfriend or boyfriend, they never had to worry about mortgages, college tuition for their kids, car payments or anything like that, right? Same thing. The more you learn about stuff, the more complex it gets.

Hey, maybe they really are out to get you. :D

[west coast orange and black]

^^ to this day i skip the part of the articles that reveal the salaries.
for me, it's still what happens between the chalk lines.

[trosmok]

for me, it's still what happens between the chalk lines.

Precisely, and one of the main reasons I have embraced minor league ball since 1994. (Home opener is April 14th!) I encourage all to do likewise, and support the pro teams in your area. Quite a few of the players in the WBC I have seen here, as well as a long list of MLB stars in their final AAA seasons.