Mike Schmidt - Cheater ?

[SideWalks Of Ny]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/sports/baseball/28chass.html?ex=1142139600&en=e6a1929cac7ee7ac&ei=5070

I also heard on the Dan Patrick show today that he used several times in his career.

[aarond23]

I think if you went back and struck from the records every time someone in the 70s and 80s was high and playing those decades would be blank in the record book lol

Didn't Doc Ellis already admit to being high on LSD before a game? And Tim Raines used coke on the field?

To find out Schmidt used greenies, which Jim Bouton talked about in Ball Four is no big surprise to me. The real surprise would be to learn the guys who DIDN'T use them.

[rockin500]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/sports/baseball/28chass.html?ex=1142139600&en=e6a1929cac7ee7ac&ei=5070

I also heard on the Dan Patrick show today that he used several times in his career.
i heard that too, and no i dont really think any less of him because of it. it was common place for them to use it. doesnt make it right, but i dont hold it against them either.

[runningshoes]

So..this is how we're going to let Barry off the hook, eh?

Der spinmeisters are hard at work I see.

[rockin500]

So..this is how we're going to let Barry off the hook, eh?

Der spinmeisters are hard at work I see.
I'm just a very forgiving soul. :D

[SideWalks Of Ny]

So..this is how we're going to let Barry off the hook, eh?

Der spinmeisters are hard at work I see.

This actually has nothing to do with bonds.

It was a simple question, schmidt used a drug that was banned in america, and admitted to it, so is he a cheater/felon ?

[runningshoes]

I'm just a very forgiving soul. :D

I can forgive him. I haven't yet but I probably will.

I'm not trying to draw similarites between the crimes, but I've seen mothers forgive thier chidren's murders yet still want them to at least do long, hard time.

Maybe we can force Barry to be nice to people as his punishment. :D

[runningshoes]

This actually has nothing to do with bonds.

It was a simple question, schmidt used a drug that was banned in america, and admitted to it, so is he a cheater/felon ?

It has everything to with Bonds.

I'm sorry you can't see that, or deny it like like most spinsters would, but it's the main reason it's being brought up in the other Bonds threads.

You wouldn't even be talking about Schmidt if you weren't trying to defend Barry. He never would have come up except to talk about his place among third basemen.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

It has everything to with Bonds.

I'm sorry you can't see that, or deny it like like most spinsters would, but it's the main reason it's being brought up in the other Bonds threads.

You wouldn't even be talking about Schmidt if you weren't trying to defend Barry. He never would have come up except to talk about his place among third basemen.

Greatway to keep avoiding the question. Keep bringing up bonds name, hell for all you know I could be defending matt lawton or gary sheffield.

Stop deflecting the question and anwser, is schmidt a felon/cheater ?

[runningshoes]

Greatway to keep avoiding the question. Keep bringing up bonds name, hell for all you know I could be defending matt lawton or gary sheffield.

Stop deflecting the question and anwser, is schmidt a felon/cheater ?

I'm not avaoiding the question. Schmidt is a non-issue. He's retired. He's in the hall.

He's a cheater.

He's not a felon. Bonds is a felon only in so much as he lied to the grand jury.

[hiddengem]

This actually has nothing to do with bonds.

It was a simple question, schmidt used a drug that was banned in america, and admitted to it, so is he a cheater/felon ?

He's not a cheater because they were not banned from the game when he took them. Everybody in the game was allowed to take them so they were fair game.

Although, he absolutely took them to gain an advantage over his apponent, period end of story. Greenies make you run faster, throw harder, swing faster, react quicker and give you stamina that lasts longer. Often times you don't get jitters, with them that come along with high amounts of caffeine, but you become very focused on the task at hand.

Ritalin is used quite a bit as well, and still is. Both pitchers and hitters take them to focus better.

Baseball players that took steroids or greenies before the new testing policy were not cheating because it was fair game to everybody, although they were committing a felony by taking them in a country where they are illegal.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

He's not a cheater because they were not banned from the game when he took them. Everybody in the game was allowed to take them so they were fair game.

Although, he absolutely took them to gain an advantage over his apponent, period end of story. Greenies make you run faster, throw harder, swing faster, react quicker and give you stamina that lasts longer. Often times you don't get jitters, with them that come along with high amounts of caffeine, but you become very focused on the task at hand.

Ritalin is used quite a bit as well, and still is. Both pitchers and hitters take them to focus better.

Baseball players that took steroids or greenies before the new testing policy were not cheating because it was fair game to everybody, although they were committing a felony by taking them in a country where they are illegal.

Great post - You'll get no arguements from me.

[ESPNFan]

He's not a cheater because they were not banned from the game when he took them. Everybody in the game was allowed to take them so they were fair game.

Although, he absolutely took them to gain an advantage over his apponent, period end of story. Greenies make you run faster, throw harder, swing faster, react quicker and give you stamina that lasts longer. Often times you don't get jitters, with them that come along with high amounts of caffeine, but you become very focused on the task at hand.

Ritalin is used quite a bit as well, and still is. Both pitchers and hitters take them to focus better.

Baseball players that took steroids or greenies before the new testing policy were not cheating because it was fair game to everybody, although they were committing a felony by taking them in a country where they are illegal.

Can you please explain to all of us how a substance that raises your standing heart rate helps you react quicker, swing faster and most absurdly give you more stamina?

[Ontarioguy]

And Tim Raines used coke on the field?

When Tim's coke habits were at their peak, he was known to always slide head first when stealing a base, because he kept a tube/container of coke in his back pocket. True story.

[west coast orange and black]

to single out a retired player serves no real purpose other than sensationalism.

baseball can not go back and examine every single player. what would that achieve? what's done is done. active players are bound to the work agreement. if a player is found to have used - per the work agreement controls in place - then that player is subjest to the penalty that the agreement prescribes.

currently, that means a positive result of a properly administered drug test. anything short of that is simply not allowed. we can all acream and kick about it, but until the work agreement is changed...

[rockin500]

Can you please explain to all of us how a substance that raises your standing heart rate helps you react quicker, swing faster and most absurdly give you more stamina?
it could easily give you more stamina for that game. maybe stamina is not the right word, but it does give you more pep and energy for some period of time. If you dont believe that, well, I'm sorry but I guess you dont believe men landed on the moon. If coffee and Nodoz can do that for ya, full blown speed will give ya that even more.

I dont think there is any question whether speed gives ya a faster reaction time, its just how MUCH of a reaction time. (i dont think it gives you that much, myself, but still, i react better in the morning when I've had my coffee rather than without)

breaking the law, yes. cheating, no.

but HG's main point is that steroids were available to everyone just as speed was available to everyone so he cannot by definition be considered a cheat, because they were both not tested for and readily available.

[Elvis]

This actually has nothing to do with bonds.

It was a simple question, schmidt used a drug that was banned in america, and admitted to it, so is he a cheater/felon ?


Did he lie to a Grand Jury about it?

Was he asked publicly while he was playing if he did and deny it?

Is he a rude, arrogant, self-superior snot?

No

No

No

[ESPNFan]

it could easily give you more stamina for that game. maybe stamina is not the right word, but it does give you more pep and energy for some period of time. If you dont believe that, well, I'm sorry but I guess you dont believe men landed on the moon. If coffee and Nodoz can do that for ya, full blown speed will give ya that even more.

I dont think there is any question whether speed gives ya a faster reaction time, its just how MUCH of a reaction time. (i dont think it gives you that much, myself, but still, i react better in the morning when I've had my coffee rather than without)

breaking the law, yes. cheating, no.

but HG's main point is that steroids were available to everyone just as speed was available to everyone so he cannot by definition be considered a cheat, because they were both not tested for and readily available.

It gives you the impression and sensation that you have more energy and pep. Its a psicological effect and while that can give you the feeling that your not tired, your actually redlining your body thus increasing the amount of time that you need to recover from the physical activity. So you feel run down and you take them again and now your addicted. Now you begin to subject yourself to the longterm side effects of them, jitters, sleep disorders, reduced appitite, numbness in the extremities, tremors, irregular heartbeat, dehydration, psychotic episodes and death.
The only benifit that you get from it is in reality a percived/illusionary one.

Steve Blecher died from ephedra which is an amphetamine.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

MLB not being able to test for steroids has everything to do with the CBA, which has everything to do with the players. The fact that MLB couldn't test for it doesn't make it ok; steroids were mentioned as an illegal substance that was not to be used.

Greenies might affect everyone differently, but from what I know about them, it's a temporary boost of energy and that's it. You come down even further when you're off them and you become mentally dependent on them just to funtion. They don't allow you to workout longer and harder or alter your chemical makeup. An entirely different level of cheating imo.

[west coast orange and black]

different, sure. but effective.

do you agree, sultan, that it can be correctly argued that the players fought harder against uppers being included in the testing than steroids?

[ESPNFan]

Not anywhere near as effective and if you look closely I believe caffine and guarana extract were not included as amphetamines. The pick me up players look for from speed can be replaced by legal alternatives but, dispite what GNC will let you believe, nothing puts on mass like steroids.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

different, sure. but effective.

do you agree, sultan, that it can be correctly argued that the players fought harder against uppers being included in the testing than steroids?

Not really sure to tell you the truth. Are you basically asking if I think more players are on those than steroids?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The pick me up players look for from speed can be replaced by legal alternatives but, dispite what GNC will let you believe, nothing puts on mass like steroids.

It's important to remember too, that at least when talking about Bonds, it's not just standard steroids vs. Greenies. It's many forms that were stacked. He was truly supercharged.

[Guerrero Mad Man 2715]

What happened to Baseball, this is horriffic.

[BadKarma]

It's important to remember too, that at least when talking about Bonds, it's not just standard steroids vs. Greenies. It's many forms that were stacked. He was truly supercharged.


As far as I know, there is no such thing as "standard" steroids. Most people that use steroids and other PEDs regularly stack them. The other thing to remember is this: You can take all the steroids/PEDs you want, and get as bulked/pumped up as you want, but if you don't have the hand-eye coordination to hit the ball, they are not going to help to you. There is no special steroid combination that makes people hit HRs. What the steroids will do though is strengthen someone who can hit a baseball, and allow them to generate greater bat speed then what they normally could. That coupled with the skill to actually hit the ball into the air is what enables these guys to hit more HRs then what they could normally hit. If all you had to do was pop some steroids to become an elite ball player, you would see alot more people at that level.

To answer the original poster though: Yes, Mike Schmidt should be considered a cheater. Did the greenies actually add anything to his already impressive skills? Not sure on that one, but he was attempting to gain an edge by using them, and he knew that he was not supposed to be using them.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "standard" steroids. Most people that use steroids and other PEDs regularly stack them. The other thing to remember is this: You can take all the steroids/PEDs you want, and get as bulked/pumped up as you want, but if you don't have the hand-eye coordination to hit the ball, they are not going to help to you. There is no special steroid combination that makes people hit HRs. What the steroids will do though is strengthen someone who can hit a baseball, and allow them to generate greater bat speed then what they normally could. That coupled with the skill to actually hit the ball into the air is what enables these guys to hit more HRs then what they could normally hit. If all you had to do was pop some steroids to become an elite ball player, you would see alot more people at that level.

To answer the original poster though: Yes, Mike Schmidt should be considered a cheater. Did the greenies actually add anything to his already impressive skills? Not sure on that one, but he was attempting to gain an edge by using them, and he knew that he was not supposed to be using them.

No question you're right about the steroids helping. The only thing you didn't hit on was the timing/hitters eye benefit of them. It's been mentioned for years and years, that you can't just take a muscle head out of a gym, hand him a bat, and expect him to hit 40 HR. Most understand it takes more than that. The point is, if you already have the...ah nevermind, you know what's up.

About the "stacking" thing, maybe you're more studied on that that me. From people I've talked to, they start out simple, and then eventually they became psychologically addicted in a sense. It's like they just couldn't get big enough. So they take it up a notch from there. Even those guys though, didn't "stack" as many forms as Bonds allegedly did, including that cow steroid.

[Imapotato]

Amphetimines can and will never be proven to be a 'performance enhancing drug'

The Waner brothers smoked as a pick me up
Brett Butler drank 1000 mg of caffeine

All have the same effect basically as an upper

Are they illegal, yes, but so isn't marijuana...if a player is hyperactive by nature and smokes a bowl before a game to calm himself down

Is he really enhanicing his performance?

All conjecture

Steroids are NOT conjecture..nor are any other PED, they make you stronger, you repair muscle quicker, your refelxes become faster since they have shown to effect fast and slow twitch fibers...so its just not the same

[hiddengem]

It gives you the impression and sensation that you have more energy and pep. Its a psicological effect and while that can give you the feeling that your not tired, your actually redlining your body thus increasing the amount of time that you need to recover from the physical activity. So you feel run down and you take them again and now your addicted. Now you begin to subject yourself to the longterm side effects of them, jitters, sleep disorders, reduced appitite, numbness in the extremities, tremors, irregular heartbeat, dehydration, psychotic episodes and death.
The only benifit that you get from it is in reality a percived/illusionary one.

Steve Blecher died from ephedra which is an amphetamine.


Without sounding like a complete jerk, I'm just going to tell you like it is, and if you don't want to know the truth, so be it. The fact is, I've seen pitchers that have topped out at 91mph, take a greenie and hit 93mph. When you take a greenie, you are more alert you are more amped for the game, your legs feel like your arm doesn't hurt ect ect.

If you don't want to know the truth, then so be it, I'll move on to somebody that does. There are MANY forms of amphetamines that players take, that do different things. The only comment you made that has any truth to it was the one about how it becomes something you want and feel you need everyday. No different than normal everyday people wanting coffee to wake them up in the morning.

Finally your last comment about the guy killed by ephedra. That explains to me everything I need to know as to how far in the dark you really are on this stuff.

[MyDogSparty]

Baseball players that took steroids or greenies before the new testing policy were not cheating because it was fair game to everybody, although they were committing a felony by taking them in a country where they are illegal.

In my mind I can't seem to seperate the two items, felony vs. cheating. I've read the dictionary definitions and I've heard others seperate the two but to break the law in order to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent, I classify that as cheating. I don't think MLB needed to put out a list of banned substances that included drugs that were illegal in this country in the first place. Common sense would tell you that you can't use them and using an illegal substance, to me, is cheating. This may be a poor analogy but should baseball have rules that say I can't, in the middle of a game, pull out a gun and shoot your knees out to prevent you from scoring as you're rounding secondbase? How are you able to consciously justify breaking the law and then in the next breath NOT call yourself a cheater. I don't mean to imply that you've used illegal substances but since you made the above comment, could you explain to me how you rationalize that in your own head so that I can better understand people like you who feel this way?

[rockin500]

In my mind I can't seem to seperate the two items, felony vs. cheating. I've read the dictionary definitions and I've heard others seperate the two but to break the law in order to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent, I classify that as cheating. I don't think MLB needed to put out a list of banned substances that included drugs that were illegal in this country in the first place. Common sense would tell you that you can't use them and using an illegal substance, to me, is cheating. This may be a poor analogy but should baseball have rules that say I can't, in the middle of a game, pull out a gun and shoot your knees out to prevent you from scoring as you're rounding secondbase? How are you able to consciously justify breaking the law and then in the next breath NOT call yourself a cheater. I don't mean to imply that you've used illegal substances but since you made the above comment, could you explain to me how you rationalize that in your own head so that I can better understand people like you who feel this way?
i can rationalize it this way: its not an unfair advantage since they were readily available in clubhouses. If anyone can use them and they are available in a clubhouse, how is it unfair?

[ESPNFan]

Well if you think the only comment that has any truth to it was about the dependance factors of the drug then your pretty ignorant.

In your own statement you say it makes you "feel" more amped, more alert. Thats right you FEEL that way because its stimulating your nervous system. Its raising your heartrate your temperature and your blood pressure. Its all initiated psychologically and all those raised levels of activity in your body might make you "feel" more energized but their putting your body into a very dangerous territory. Amphetamines provide no caloric value so they themselves do not give the player energy, infact they suppress the urge to eat robbing him of future energy resources. So to gain this "energy" your body is stimulated form the central nervous system and begins to burn the body's stored energy. This results in the raised levels of resperatory fuction.
At rest the higher your heart rate the less work and endurance your going to have. If you have a lower heart rate at rest the more capasity
for endurance your going to have.
This is why it killed steve Bechler it rasied his heart rate blood preasue and body temperature to a level that was already very elevated. Couple that with trying to work out at a high level in a very warm environment and it produced the fatal heatstoke that killed him and Corey Stringer. But your probably right, I bet they felt very "peppy" and "energised" till their organs were starting to shut down.

[Astro]

Great post - You'll get no arguements from me.
Sadly that is not the case for a few people on here

[MyDogSparty]

i can rationalize it this way: its not an unfair advantage since they were readily available in clubhouses. If anyone can use them and they are available in a clubhouse, how is it unfair?

It's unfair because first and foremost, players should obey the law. In this situation, those that are doing the "right thing" by obeying the law are at a disadvantage, thus making it unfair.

[Mike D.]

What happened to Baseball, this is horriffic.

Nothing that hasn't been going on a long, long time.

Tom House said he used steroids in the 1970's.

Players have been using amphetimines since the 1960's, at least...probably before.

This whole "going to hell in a handbasket talk" always cracks me up.
:D

[SideWalks Of Ny]

It's important to remember too, that at least when talking about Bonds, it's not just standard steroids vs. Greenies. It's many forms that were stacked. He was truly supercharged.

Taking multiple types of steroids at the same time wouldnt benefit a baseball player at all. It would cause them serious injury problems, and it would hinder their performance. When using the drug you use it in moderation, if bonds was taking steroids in stacks at the sametime as the book says, he would of been out of baseball years ago and Either in the sameboat caminiti or azado were in.

Just taking one steroid ALONE poses a serious health risk, this article right here sums it up.

http://www.mdadvice.com/library/ped/pedillsymp598.html

" The consensus among medical experts is that the use of anabolic steroids by both males and females poses greater risk and danger from adverse effects than is justified by any possible benefit. Physicians uniformly advise against using them. Their use is condemned by the Medical Commission of the International Olympic Committee. "

[SideWalks Of Ny]

As for greenies, they obviously help, just like steroids, if the drug didnt help players wouldn't risk their lives to take the drug if it didnt provide any benefits, including the placebo effect.

http://www.hbo.com/costasnow/episode/episode.01.story.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/sports/baseball/28chass.html?ex=1142139600&en=e6a1929cac7ee7ac&ei=5070

These two articles right here sums it up about greenies effect on baseball. There are many baseball players who speculate that the effects of no amphetamines in baseball will DWARF the effects of no steroids in baseball.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Taking multiple types of steroids at the same time wouldnt benefit a baseball player at all. It would cause them serious injury problems, and it would hinder their performance. When using the drug you use it in moderation, if bonds was taking steroids in stacks at the sametime as the book says, he would of been out of baseball years ago and Either in the sameboat caminiti or azado were in.
"
How so. There are body builders and some wrestlers that have said, acknowledged that they have taken steroids for years and they're still alive. Of course at times steroids can do some serious damege, even kill but to say that Bonds could not have done what some have said he did or he would be out of the game, not buying that one.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

How so. There are body builders and some wrestlers that have said, acknowledged that they have taken steroids for years and they're still alive. Of course at times steroids can do some serious damege, even kill but to say that Bonds could not have done what some have said he did or he would be out of the game, not buying that one.

I have no idea what bodybuilders you are referring to, or wrestlers. But anyway, body building and wrestling are entirely different from baseball, and wrestling is fake anyway, especially WWE.

Bonds has been accused of taking multiple steroids AT THE SAMETIME, cow steroids, winstrol, etc, winstrol alone is an incredibly strong and dangerous steroid, to mix it with cow steroids ( which I dont see how it would benefit an athlete at all) is assinine, and would only hinder performance. It's possible ( and more likely) that bonds used multiple steroids but in moderation, at different times. The book specifies that bonds started to become a " professional " at using steroids, if this is true, he wouldnt have used multiple types of harmful drugs at the sametime. Giambi had this problem, and canseco even pointed it out. He pointed out that he looked bloated, and had a wierd shaped body, and what happens later is giambi would face multiple health problems, including problems that would threaten his life.And the thing is, I dont think giambi was using anywhere near the amount of steroids at the sametime as book states bonds did.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/10/60minutes/main673138.shtml

[SideWalks Of Ny]

Here's a flaw I found In this book written about bonds, read this article.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/sbbw5215.htm

" Yet his workout regimen, supervised by personal trainer Raymond Farriss, who also trains former NFL running back Roger Craig and all-world wide receiver Jerry Rice, suggests he might be.

In four months, Bonds lowered his body fat to 8% from 12%, and is bench-pressing 315 pounds, up from 230. There were sprints to be run, and run, and run. He looks more muscular, more defined, more powerful. His biceps stretch his jersey's sleeves to the limit.

''I thought I was in great shape the way I worked out before because I was putting up the numbers I did,'' Bonds says in the clubhouse, ''but I was out of shape. I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it and I'm happy with the results, but it doesn't guarantee success. I don't care how many weights you lift - you can lift until you're blue in the face - it doesn't guarantee success. "

That is well before the authors of the book claim that Bonds lowered his body fat to 8% or when he allegedly began using anabolics.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Taking multiple types of steroids at the same time wouldnt benefit a baseball player at all. It would cause them serious injury problems, and it would hinder their performance. When using the drug you use it in moderation, if bonds was taking steroids in stacks at the sametime as the book says, he would of been out of baseball years ago and Either in the sameboat caminiti or azado were in.

Just taking one steroid ALONE poses a serious health risk, this article right here sums it up.

http://www.mdadvice.com/library/ped/pedillsymp598.html

" The consensus among medical experts is that the use of anabolic steroids by both males and females poses greater risk and danger from adverse effects than is justified by any possible benefit. Physicians uniformly advise against using them. Their use is condemned by the Medical Commission of the International Olympic Committee. "

Steroids are indeed dangerous and nobody is denying that.

The term "stacking" came about because people do it, and it is effective. Sure, if you just blindly stack various forms without the proper advice on how much to take and how long to take it, then it's VERY dangerous. Bonds was getting the proper advice. He had some of the most knowledgable people around regarding the use of that stuff. When it's done properly, "stacking" is very beneficial. Not sure how you can say it isn't.

[hiddengem]

Steroids are indeed dangerous and nobody is denying that.

The term "stacking" came about because people do it, and it is effective. Sure, if you just blindly stack various forms without the proper advice on how much to take and how long to take it, then it's VERY dangerous. Bonds was getting the proper advice. He had some of the most knowledgable people around regarding the use of that stuff. When it's done properly, "stacking" is very beneficial. Not sure how you can say it isn't.

Bro, don't even bother. We are fighting a losing battle trying to explain to these guys how it is, when they really don't "want" to know how it is. They will read every post we write with glasses on that have "media filters" built in.

[hiddengem]

Well if you think the only comment that has any truth to it was about the dependance factors of the drug then your pretty ignorant.

In your own statement you say it makes you "feel" more amped, more alert. Thats right you FEEL that way because its stimulating your nervous system. Its raising your heartrate your temperature and your blood pressure. Its all initiated psychologically and all those raised levels of activity in your body might make you "feel" more energized but their putting your body into a very dangerous territory. Amphetamines provide no caloric value so they themselves do not give the player energy, infact they suppress the urge to eat robbing him of future energy resources. So to gain this "energy" your body is stimulated form the central nervous system and begins to burn the body's stored energy. This results in the raised levels of resperatory fuction.
At rest the higher your heart rate the less work and endurance your going to have. If you have a lower heart rate at rest the more capasity
for endurance your going to have.

Have you ever taken a real "greenie" from Mexico?

This is why it killed steve Bechler it rasied his heart rate blood preasue and body temperature to a level that was already very elevated. Couple that with trying to work out at a high level in a very warm environment and it produced the fatal heatstoke that killed him and Corey Stringer. But your probably right, I bet they felt very "peppy" and "energised" till their organs were starting to shut down.

So why is it that MILLIONS of people used ephedra the right way and had ZERO problems. But the 2 guys you mention here, that had no clue how to take it, are the ones that died? You tell me?

[hiddengem]

Taking multiple types of steroids at the same time wouldnt benefit a baseball player at all. It would cause them serious injury problems, and it would hinder their performance.

Oh, is this so? And you have experience stacking steroids while playing baseball?


When using the drug you use it in moderation, if bonds was taking steroids in stacks at the sametime as the book says, he would of been out of baseball years ago and Either in the sameboat caminiti or azado were in.


Please stop. You are spewing garbage from your mouth that you have no clue about. You only know what the media has told you about theses guy's lives.

[hiddengem]

And the thing is, I dont think giambi was using anywhere near the amount of steroids at the sametime as book states bonds did.


This is the key word that should be noted to all your posts.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

Steroids are indeed dangerous and nobody is denying that.

The term "stacking" came about because people do it, and it is effective. Sure, if you just blindly stack various forms without the proper advice on how much to take and how long to take it, then it's VERY dangerous. Bonds was getting the proper advice. He had some of the most knowledgable people around regarding the use of that stuff. When it's done properly, "stacking" is very beneficial. Not sure how you can say it isn't.

I know what the term stacking is, I've known people who've stacked steroids before. I've even talked to them about what the book states bonds was taking, and how much, ALL of them said it was completly ridiculous, and that if it were true, he had no idea what he was doing. The book claims bonds stacked winstrol ( a very strong steroid itself, could easily be used alone), with cow steroids, steroids for females, HGH, and he was popping TWENTY pills at the sametime, good god, if this were true, how he's not dead yet is beyond me. The book specifically points out that bonds became such an " expert " at it, that he would control his own regimens and dosages, So if he was taking 20 pills under anderson's care, imagine on his own....

I just dont believe it, it could possibly be true, and if it is, he's a complete idiot and a drug addict, but given his recent performance and his health, I dont believe he was stacking up on various steroids at the sametime as the book states. I believe he used them, lots of them, but in moderation to achieve the best results. This guy is a health nut for crying out loud, I highly doubt he would endanger himself by taking multiple steroids in huge dosages at the sametime.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

Oh, is this so? And you have experience stacking steroids while playing baseball?

Well, I play baseball, but I dont take steroids, though I know athletes who take book steroids and greenies, and benefit from them both when properly used.


Please stop. You are spewing garbage from your mouth that you have no clue about. You only know what the media has told you about theses guy's lives.

The media doesnt say anything remotely close to what I'm saying, Infact the complete opposite. Some of what I'm saying is an opinion, a lot is from what I've read and heard.

Tom house had stacked multiple steroids at the sametime during his pitching career, and said it only caused him problems. Granted, He wasnt working with the best guy's like bonds was, but he also ( according to him atleast) wasnt using as many steroids as the book states bonds did.

From the article - " I pretty much popped everything cold turkey," House said. "We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses. That was the '60s, when nobody knew. The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

" House said he gained almost 30 pounds while using steroids, blaming the extra weight for contributing to knee problems. He said the drugs helped improve recovery time and conditioning but did not add velocity to his fastball.

"I tried everything known to man to improve my fastball, and it still didn't go faster than 82 miles per hour," House said. "I was a failed experiment."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2052364

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I know what the term stacking is, I've known people who've stacked steroids before. I've even talked to them about what the book states bonds was taking, and how much, ALL of them said it was completly ridiculous, and that if it were true, he had no idea what he was doing. The book claims bonds stacked winstrol ( a very strong steroid itself, could easily be used alone), with cow steroids, steroids for females, HGH, and he was popping TWENTY pills at the sametime, good god, if this were true, how he's not dead yet is beyond me. The book specifically points out that bonds became such an " expert " at it, that he would control his own regimens and dosages, So if he was taking 20 pills under anderson's care, imagine on his own....

I just dont believe it, it could possibly be true, and if it is, he's a complete idiot and a drug addict, but given his recent performance and his health, I dont believe he was stacking up on various steroids at the sametime as the book states. I believe he used them, lots of them, but in moderation to achieve the best results. This guy is a health nut for crying out loud, I highly doubt he would endanger himself by taking multiple steroids in huge dosages at the sametime.

How addictive are steroids. How psychologically dependent do you become on them, when you see the type of results he was seeing. When you become superhuman, the thought of not being that way anymore, has to drive you to either continue to do it, or to do even more. Maybe I'm wrong, you tell me.

[hiddengem]

I know what the term stacking is, I've known people who've stacked steroids before.
Oh wait, you said that a baseball player that stacked steroids would hinder their performance.

The book claims bonds stacked winstrol ( a very strong steroid itself, could easily be used alone)

Could you explain to me the beniftes of using Winstrol alone? What properties does Winstrol have?

with cow steroids

And what might these be? Just trying to get an understanding of your level of knowledge on the subject.

steroids for females
Oh, you mean Clomid, the drug that is used by males to combat estrogen?

and he was popping TWENTY pills at the sametime
And your point? I take 20 pills a day,most at the same time. Been doing it for years. I'm doing just fine.


I just dont believe it
Great, lets just leave it that way.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The point of stacking isn't necessarily to keep adding more and more and more muscle. The point of stacking is to decrease the side effects of one steroid with another. When you give yourself high doses of testosterone, your body gets fooled into thinking that it doesn't have to produce as much as it naturally does. For some reason, estrogen levels increase and guys can grow boobs and crap, so then Clomid is taken. HGH increases bone mass, which helps your body deal with the added weight being put on. Bonds' frame wasn't meant to be 240 plain and simple. All the drugs serve a specific purpose. He wasn't blindly taking stuff just to take it. The whole mix ends up being a well oiled machine in the end.

[hiddengem]

The point of stacking isn't necessarily to keep adding more and more and more muscle. The point of stacking is to decrease the side effects of one steroid with another. When you give yourself high doses of testosterone, your body gets fooled into thinking that it doesn't have to produce as much as it naturally does. For some reason, estrogen levels increase and guys can grow boobs and crap, so then Clomid is taken. They all serve a specific purpose, and Bonds' guys understood this. They had the knowledge. He wasn't blindly taking stuff just to take it. The whole mix ends up being a well oiled machine in the end.

This is true, but the main reason a player stacks steroids, is because they all have different properities and do different things. And yes at the end of a cycle, clomid is taken to fight estrogen build up until the body starts producing test on its own again. This also, helps the athelte to keep more of the gains he's made.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

This is true, but the main reason a player stacks steroids, is because they all have different properities and do different things. And yes at the end of a cycle, clomid is taken to fight estrogen build up until the body starts producing test on its own again. This also, helps the athelte to keep more of the gains he's made.

You're right. I probably worded that wrong when I said they were taken to decrease side effects of the others. They do all serve their own purpose, you're right, usually those purposes compliment eachother very nicely. Such with the HGH and the Clomid. Why the cattle roid though HG, what do you know about that. All I've heard is that it improves the quality of muscle in cattle. Does it have something to do with the fibers in the muscle? Or do you know?

[SideWalks Of Ny]

Oh wait, you said that a baseball player that stacked steroids would hinder their performance.



Could you explain to me the beniftes of using Winstrol alone? What properties does Winstrol have?



And what might these be? Just trying to get an understanding of your level of knowledge on the subject.


Oh, you mean Clomid, the drug that is used by males to combat estrogen?


And your point? I take 20 pills a day,most at the same time. Been doing it for years. I'm doing just fine.



Great, lets just leave it that way.

I'm sure how to quote eachstatement one by one, So I'll respond to them all one by one.

1.) Yes, that's exactly what I said, see tom house.

2.) I believe winstrol is used to lose fat while retaining lean body mass. It's very potent and strong.

3.) Beats me, I dont even know what horse steroids are, which is what house used.

4.) Guess so.

5.) 20 tablets of Stanozolol ?

[hiddengem]

Some of what I'm saying is an opinion, a lot is from what I've read and heard.

Exactly my point.
[QUOTE]
Tom house had stacked multiple steroids at the sametime during his pitching career, and said it only caused him problems. Granted, He wasnt working with the best guy's like bonds was, but he also ( according to him atleast) wasnt using as many steroids as the book states bonds did

I know Tom, have worked out with him, and he will tell you flat out, that he had no clue what he was doing.

The good thing is, we know now. There's a lot more research and understanding."

Interesting.


" House said he gained almost 30 pounds while using steroids, blaming the extra weight for contributing to knee problems. He said the drugs helped improve recovery time and conditioning but did not add velocity to his fastball.


Like he said, "he took things cold turkey" he no idea what he was taking or what any of them were used for. No wonder he had so many problems.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

You're right. I probably worded that wrong when I said they were taken to decrease side effects of the others. They do all serve their own purpose, you're right, usually those purposes compliment eachother very nicely. Such with the HGH and the Clomid. Why the cattle roid though HG, what do you know about that. All I've heard is that it improves the quality of muscle in cattle. Does it have something to do with the fibers in the muscle? Or do you know?

HGH is used for the ligament benefits that most players use it in combination with steroids because it will prevent the ligament and connective tissue injuries as well as failure thats associated with Anabolic Steroid use.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny] Some of what I'm saying is an opinion, a lot is from what I've read and heard.

Exactly my point.


I know Tom, have worked out with him, and he will tell you flat out, that he had no clue what he was doing.


Interesting.



Like he said, "he took things cold turkey" he no idea what he was taking or what any of them were used for. No wonder he had so many problems.

I agree with all of this, As I said before It's a pale comparison to bonds stacking because bonds most likely knew more about it, and what to do, still from what the book states, and from what i've read, if he took all of those steroids at the sametime, I cant see how he would of avoided injuries or even death.

BTW, Interesting that you knew house, is his original statement about steroids being rampant in the 60's and 70's true ?

[FrenchyLefebvre]

Guys,
I think getting lost in this are the key words in Schmidt's statement: "bit on a couple of times" ... as a twenty-something. That would put him back in the '70s. And it was no secret that the Phillies' clubhouse had them in abundance in that era. But any diehard Phillies fan could, most likely, could guess the players who were on them.

If videos were available for review for games throughout his career, people who watched him every game could put big money on picking those couple of games out (he'd be more "peppy" in those, actually very un-Schmidt-like).

Philly probably gave him the biggest cheers those couple of games he was "pepped up". He made everything he did look so cool & easy that that's why he got booed so bad ("too laid back").

Just for laughs, I would pay good money to watch those couple of games with Schmidt on greenies
Now I can better imagine Bob Newhart on crack for a couple of shows! LOL.

Not to defend the habitual users of the drugs mentioned. But in Schmidt's case -- Heck, who hasn't tried pot when they were at that age & everyone was shoving it in your face? (His greenies, equivalent to our pot, as far as the respective situations/peer pressure).

[hiddengem]

1.) Yes, that's exactly what I said, see tom house.

Great example:clapping This guy admitted he had no clue what he was doing, and you want to use him?

2.) I believe winstrol is used to lose fat while retaining lean body mass. It's very potent and strong.
The first part is true, and its used to gain speed and quickness. Sprinters love the stuff. Combine that with something to gain some size and strength, watch out.


3.) Beats me, I dont even know what horse steroids are, which is what house used.
Ok, so now do you understand why I thought your comments were rediculous and uneducated at best?


5.) 20 tablets of Stanozolol ?

You said Pills, nothing about Stanozolol(winstrol) And nobody takes 20 pills of Winny at the same time. Unless each tablet is of very low Mg's.

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]



BTW, Interesting that you knew house, is his original statement about steroids being rampant in the 60's and 70's true ?

I'm sure..but not to the extent it became.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

HGH is used for the ligament benefits that most players use it in combination with steroids because it will prevent the ligament and connective tissue injuries as well as failure thats associated with Anabolic Steroid use.

And it also increases bone mass/density ;)

[SideWalks Of Ny]

Great example:clapping This guy admitted he had no clue what he was doing, and you want to use him?

The first part is true, and its used to gain speed and quickness. Sprinters love the stuff. Combine that with something to gain some size and strength, watch out.


Ok, so now do you understand why I thought your comments were rediculous and uneducated at best?



You said Pills, nothing about Stanozolol(winstrol) And nobody takes 20 pills of Winny at the same time. Unless each tablet is of very low Mg's.

1.) I already said it was a pale comparison, though I dont think he was taking anywhere near the amount bonds has possibly taken.

2.) Here's a good article on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winstrol

3.) Uneducated at best ? Geez, I wouldnt say that, I know people who use the drugs, and benefit from them, and I've never seen any of them say or use the gigantic amount bonds might of used, and the combination taken at the sametime.

4.) Well, I read steroid pills, So I would assume possibly winstrol, who knows.

" According to the book, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time and was so deeply reliant on his regimen that he ordered Anderson to start "cycles" -- a prescribed period of steroid use lasting about three weeks -- even when he was not due to begin one. "

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html?cnn=yes

[SideWalks Of Ny]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny]

I'm sure..but not to the extent it became.

What about greenies, and how much do they benefit an athlete ?

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]

What about greenies, and how much do they benefit an athlete ?

Quite a bit, guys wouldn't take them if it didn't improve their performance. They have been used for decades now.

[hiddengem]

You're right. I probably worded that wrong when I said they were taken to decrease side effects of the others. They do all serve their own purpose, you're right, usually those purposes compliment eachother very nicely. Such with the HGH and the Clomid. Why the cattle roid though HG, what do you know about that. All I've heard is that it improves the quality of muscle in cattle. Does it have something to do with the fibers in the muscle? Or do you know?


Cattle Roid? I don't know which one they are talking about, but roids in cattle are used to "beef" them up. Horses use steroids to make them run faster, get stronger and last longer, the same reason humans use them.

[runningshoes]

2.) Here's a good article on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winstrol

I wouldn't go around referencing Wikidpedia if I were you.

Information is supplied by users and is well know for being incorrect.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny]

Quite a bit, guys wouldn't take them if it didn't improve their performance. They have been used for decades now.

Oh believe me I know they enhance performance. I've taken multiple types of amphetamines/greenies before, and it's helped me perform better at athletics and my job, which is physical.

I just dont understand people who criticize steroid apologists who say steroids dont help, but then say amphetamines do nothing at all. Both of the drugs enhance performance if properly used, if they didnt players wouldnt risk their lives to take the drugs knowing the health risk they both pose.

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]

Oh believe me I know they enhance performance. I've taken multiple types of amphetamines/greenies before, and it's helped me perform better at athletics and my job, which is physical.



So should I consider you a cheat or a Felon?

[runningshoes]

So should I consider you a cheat or a Felon?

I'll bet he's a bouncer. :D

[SideWalks Of Ny]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny]


So should I consider you a cheat or a Felon?

Just consider me a normal humanbeing. It's natural to try and gain an edge in sports.

[ESPNFan]

Hidden Im just glad that you had to do all the explaining....
AND LOL @ Wikipedia. The guy who writes the scripts for Sponge Bob could be the one posting the Steroid Info.

So whats the over under on how long it takes 20 tabs of winny a day to turn your liver into pate`?

[hiddengem]

Hidden Im just glad that you had to do all the explaining....

Wern't you the one that wrote this? :

Well if you think the only comment that has any truth to it was about the dependance factors of the drug then your pretty ignorant.


AND LOL @ Wikipedia. The guy who writes the scripts for Sponge Bob could be the one posting the Steroid Info.

Actually I found that particular page to be quite accurate.


So whats the over under on how long it takes 20 tabs of winny a day to turn your liver into pate`?

For the last time, nobody takes 20 tabs of winny a day. Give me a break.

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]

Just consider me a normal humanbeing. It's natural to try and gain an edge in sports.

Ok, so we should consider all those that took Roids and Greenies before the testing policy, normal?

[runningshoes]

Actually I found that particular page to be quite accurate.

And it may well be, but if one get's in to the habit of quoting Wikipedia, he's going to get burned.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny]

Ok, so we should consider all those that took Roids and Greenies before the testing policy, normal?


What would you consider them ?

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]


What would you consider them ?

I answered that in Post #11...Your turn.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny]

I answered that in Post #11...Your turn.

Competitors.

[ESPNFan]

Wern't you the one that wrote this? :






Actually I found that particular page to be quite accurate.




For the last time, nobody takes 20 tabs of winny a day. Give me a break.


Yeah I though you were wrong in your assesment of how I said Amphetamines work. Still do.
My point was that WIKIpedia can be edited by anyone. I don't care how accurate it could look I'd never refrence it. Third my comment about 20 tabs of winny was a joke. Hence the Pate` comment.

Try to ease up, there are other people here who know what their talking about as well.

Oha nd since you mentioned you worked out with House I'd like to hear what you think about him coming out about Steroids. Why do you think he did it?

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]

Competitors.

All of us are competitors, some of us choose to compete clean while others choose not to.

[hiddengem]

Yeah I though you were wrong in your assesment of how I said Amphetamines work. Still do.

Would you mind answering the 2 questions in post #42




Try to ease up, there are other people here who know what their talking about as well.

Maybe, but I have found very few on this board that understand this subject and how it "really" is.
And the comments about the players, greed, not liking fans ect. Yea that really pisses me off, because a great many of us work very hard to please the fans and do our part in the community. Many folks are ignorant enough to listen to the media and sterotype all of us based on a few jerks and or take one negative thing about a player and then just cast him off as a bad person, greedy, egotistical ect.

And then fans have the nerve to wonder why certain players don't mingle with them.


Oha nd since you mentioned you worked out with House I'd like to hear what you think about him coming out about Steroids. Why do you think he did it?

I don't know really. I suppose because he had a negative experience with them, and doesn't think they are worth it.

[ESPNFan]

Have you ever taken a real "greenie" from Mexico?


So why is it that MILLIONS of people used ephedra the right way and had ZERO problems. But the 2 guys you mention here, that had no clue how to take it, are the ones that died? You tell me?

Id be happy to answer the questions for you.

First I wouldn't take ANYTHING that was obtained over the counter from Mexico. Who knows whaty it was laced with. I don't know why this makes a difference. My wife is Brazilian and when we go there i try to bring most medications that I think I'll need with me. I just dont trust them.


Second: Ephedra was banned for a reason. Ephedrine is deadly because of how it works. All you need is a few other factors tossed itno the mix and your dead. And almost every amphetamine works in the same way so that can all be that dangerous. Im almost positive there were cyclists who have died from ampetamine useage and Stringer and Bechler weren't the only ones who died from ephedra. I know someone did animal testing on it. I try to find the results.

[ESPNFan]

Maybe, but I have found very few on this board that understand this subject and how it "really" is.
And the comments about the players, greed, not liking fans ect. Yea that really pisses me off, because a great many of us work very hard to please the fans and do our part in the community. Many folks are ignorant enough to listen to the media and sterotype all of us based on a few jerks and or take one negative thing about a player and then just cast him off as a bad person, greedy, egotistical ect.

And then fans have the nerve to wonder why certain players don't mingle with them.


Well I have a pretty healthy understanding both from the people and subject matter I work with (I work in medical research specificly cancer), and from first hand experience as an athlete in college where PED's were absolutely out of control.

And you know what I agree with you about athletes being stereotyped. Where I work we have RedSox coming in to see people all the time. The work these guys do is amazing and this is in addition to their jobs and family life. People who get bent out of shape because they don't get an autograph or someone can't have a conversation with them need to get a clue.

I have a particular dislike for the media and the way they portray certain people, especially here in Boston (yes you Bob Ryan and Dan Shaunassey). But you can't discount them across the board. I have a few friends who work in the media and mostly their good people.
And anyone that takes one athlete and paints everyone with the same brush is a moron.

[SideWalks Of Ny]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny]

All of us are competitors, some of us choose to compete clean while others choose not to.

By " clean " do you mean not any type of illegal drug at all, or just steroids and greenies ?

[runningshoes]

Yea that really pisses me off, because a great many of us work very hard to please the fans and do our part in the community.

I don't think too many off around here doubt that HG, but as you know the bad apple ruins the bushel, especially if it's left to fester like this issue has.

It's unfortunate but I think human nature has always dictated this sort of reaction.

In some ways it's unfortunate you guys have a union that prefers to keep a lid on your public opinions. I can't imagine there aren't a lot of current players who are outraged by the bad taste Bonds is leaving in everyone's mouth. I suspect their hands are tied.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I have no idea what bodybuilders you are referring to, or wrestlers. But anyway, body building and wrestling are entirely different from baseball, and wrestling is fake anyway, especially WWE.

[ What does the fact that wrestling is fake have to do with your previous statement. You make the claim that Bonds could not have done all that is suspected, taking multiple steroids. It appears your saying his body would have suffered to the point that he would be unable to go on. How do you prove that, you have no idea exactly what he was using, the frequency or the amount]SHOELESSJOE3




Bonds has been accused of taking multiple steroids AT THE SAMETIME, cow steroids, winstrol, etc, winstrol alone is an incredibly strong and dangerous steroid, to mix it with cow steroids ( which I dont see how it would benefit an athlete at all) is assinine, and would only hinder performance. It's possible ( and more likely) that bonds used multiple steroids but in moderation, at different times. The book specifies that bonds started to become a " professional " at using steroids, if this is true, he wouldnt have used multiple types of harmful drugs at the sametime. Giambi had this problem, and canseco even pointed it out. He pointed out that he looked bloated, and had a wierd shaped body, and what happens later is giambi would face multiple health problems, including problems that would threaten his life.And the thing is, I dont think giambi was using anywhere near the amount of steroids at the sametime as book states bonds did.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/10/60minutes/main673138.shtml


I say no one here has the knowledge of what Bonds could tolerate and what he could not. I choose to wait until more comes out, more details. There may be some errors in exactly what he was using and how much he was using.

[Mattingly]

* * *

And anyone that takes one athlete and paints everyone with the same brush is a moron.
It's not necessary to call people whom you disagree with--even if they're ill-informed--morons. If you can avoid any name-calling, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[sandlot]

There are no definitive answers to many of these questions. For example, right now I'm taking medication for a persistent flu, and it's very effective. Without it I couldn't work. But when my doctor gave it to me, he joked: "Be careful if you're competing in anything -- this is banned in the Olympics." Then I opened the paper and read about an Australian Olympic swimmer who had to drop out of a competition because he has a flu and can't breathe. The article said many elite athletes are now experiencing similar problems, missing meets and enduring lingering illnesses because nearly all of the most effective medicines for colds and flus are banned from many sports. Can this be right? That you and I can take these same medicines while driving cars, flying planes, carrying weapons, caring for kids, performing brain surgery, etc., but a competitive swimmer, gymnast, swimmer or whatever, can't rid himself of a flu that's wearing him or her down -- even when it's doctor-prescribed medication and not taken for performance enhancement-- because it'll show up in a urine sample? There is a serious mismatch here between personal behavior and expectation for others. When is it okay for me, but cheating for you? When I was student, we loaded up on caffeine, No-doz, dex and whatever we could get our hands on to help us cram before exams. Certainly that was not approved by the school, and I'm certain many of the students taking diet pills were not suffering obesity. Were we cheating? I don't think so. The campus was loaded with bug-eyed guys who flunked. You either knew the material or you didn't. Kind of like you can hit the ball or you can't. The history of baseball is filled with players who sought every advantage they possibly could, but would never get in the HOF without buying a ticket. Do I defend shooting people in the butt with steroid cocktails in the quest for fame andf fortune? No. I think it's dangerous, self-destructive and bad values. Am I against hypocrisy? Yes. Have a few drinks, then load up of coffee to drive: road cheating? Botox your wrinkles, enhance your breasts, nip n'tuck here and there, dye your hair: advertising cheat? Viagra: NOT performance enhancement? "Before you remove the speck from your brother's eye, first remove the beam from thine own." Now there's a ban on behavior worth keeping. End of rant.

[Mattingly]

sandlot, in looking to find out which things caused "false positives", as I understnad they're called, I happened upon a few sites which help athletes pass blood, urine, hair, saliva tests. Also included are drugs which cause "false positives", meaning they're not the drug being tested for, but have similar properties of these (such as poppy seeds for cocaine, I believe it is (could've been heroin, but I think it was coke).

http://www.passyourdrugtest.com/false-positives.htm

and

http://www.ipassedmydrugtest.com/false_positives.asp

[hiddengem]

Well I have a pretty healthy understanding both from the people and subject matter I work with (I work in medical research specificly cancer), and from first hand experience as an athlete in college where PED's were absolutely out of control.

And you know what I agree with you about athletes being stereotyped. Where I work we have RedSox coming in to see people all the time. The work these guys do is amazing and this is in addition to their jobs and family life. People who get bent out of shape because they don't get an autograph or someone can't have a conversation with them need to get a clue.

I have a particular dislike for the media and the way they portray certain people, especially here in Boston (yes you Bob Ryan and Dan Shaunassey). But you can't discount them across the board. I have a few friends who work in the media and mostly their good people.
And anyone that takes one athlete and paints everyone with the same brush is a moron.

Great I'm glad we agree, on that at least.

[hiddengem]

First I wouldn't take ANYTHING that was obtained over the counter from Mexico. Who knows whaty it was laced with. I don't know why this makes a difference. My wife is Brazilian and when we go there i try to bring most medications that I think I'll need with me. I just dont trust them.

Its really ok...Where do you think Mexican's get there meds from? The Pharmacia. Its not like you go into a dark black alley and meet up with some strange guy and he gives you a handfull of pills and you walk off.
No, you walk into a Pharmacy, and get what you need. I have a friend who is a nurse, she goes to Mexico all the time to get meds. They are much much cheaper over there. She's been doing this for decades with no problems to speak of.


Second: Ephedra was banned for a reason. Ephedrine is deadly because of how it works. All you need is a few other factors tossed itno the mix and your dead. And almost every amphetamine works in the same way so that can all be that dangerous. Im almost positive there were cyclists who have died from ampetamine useage and Stringer and Bechler weren't the only ones who died from ephedra. I know someone did animal testing on it. I try to find the results.

Oh give me a freaking break. Our country keeps Alcohol and Tobacco legal and it kills THOUSANDS of people each year. The people you mentioned that died, died because they used the stuff like idiots and had no clue what they were doing. They ruined it for the rest of us that took it responsibly.

Athletes in ALL sports have been taking amphetamines for DECADES now, literally THOUSANDS of athletes over the span of 50 or 60 yrs and you can't even give me 5 names of people that have died because of them.

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]

By " clean " do you mean not any type of illegal drug at all, or just steroids and greenies ?

I mean anything that is not banned from the game.

[Mattingly]

[QUOTE=SideWalks Of Ny]

I mean anything that is not banned from the game.
So what about the "cream", "clear" and HGH? Are those so-called "designer drugs" (re their undetectability) currently not on the banned list? I'm not sure I'd call anyone using these to be "clean".

[west coast orange and black]

By " clean " do you mean not any type of illegal drug at all, or just steroids and greenies?

hiddengem: I mean anything that is not banned from the game.

hg, readers might interpreting the above as:
"if the substance was/is not specifically banned by mlb, then it was/is ok to use."

is this your position?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Players today could take a bath in HGH and have nothing to worry about. "I love this game !! "

[west coast orange and black]

yes. but also: players today would have to take a bath in hgh to receive any marked betterment.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

yes. but also: players today would have to take a bath in hgh to receive any marked betterment.

Agree to disagree. Especially when taking it with cattle roid and company.

[hiddengem]

[QUOTE=hiddengem]
So what about the "cream", "clear" and HGH? Are those so-called "designer drugs" (re their undetectability) currently not on the banned list? I'm not sure I'd call anyone using these to be "clean".


I'll just put it this way. As a player you know when you are playing clean or not.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: Agree to disagree. Especially when taking [hgh] with cattle roid and company.

is it your assertion that 2005 and 2006 players continue to use steroids but pass drug screenings?

[hiddengem]

By " clean " do you mean not any type of illegal drug at all, or just steroids and greenies?

hiddengem: I mean anything that is not banned from the game.

hg, readers might interpreting the above as:
"if the substance was/is not specifically banned by mlb, then it was/is ok to use."

is this your position?

Its a tough call..I said in a different post that a player knows when he is playing clean or not. But I will say I was taking a suppliment a few years ago that was perfectly legal, sold over the counter at GNC and it was a "testosterone precursor" I had absolutely no concern at all that I was doing something wrong. 1) It wasn't banned by the game. 2) I could buy it at GNC. That suppliment is now banned and I no longer use it. I guess some might consider this "precursor" a Designer drug, I don't know.

[hiddengem]

sultan: Agree to disagree. Especially when taking [hgh] with cattle roid and company.

is it your assertion that 2005 and 2006 players continue to use steroids but pass drug screenings?


I think this is likely.

[west coast orange and black]

ok. thanx.

do you think that baseball ought to retroactively act against players?
take action against someone for using something that was an illegal substance but at the same time not disallowed by mlb? >>> mcgwire using andro, f'rinstance?

what do you suppose is the take by your fellow brothers on this question?

hats off for fielding these questions, hg.

[ESPNFan]

Its a tough call..I said in a different post that a player knows when he is playing clean or not. But I will say I was taking a suppliment a few years ago that was perfectly legal, sold over the counter at GNC and it was a "testosterone precursor" I had absolutely no concern at all that I was doing something wrong. 1) It wasn't banned by the game. 2) I could buy it at GNC. That suppliment is now banned and I no longer use it. I guess some might consider this "precursor" a Designer drug, I don't know.

Its a tough call but really I don't think its the players fault. Its basicly because the Government passed DSHEA (Dietary Suppliment Health and Education Act.) It basicly put the burdon of proof that a substance isn't safe on the government and gives the suppliment companies a free pass to market something until the FDA can get around to testing it. If you buy something over the counter until the MLB bans it your free from wrongdoing in my opinion.

My one exclusion to this would be the guys who used Andro before it became wildly popular. This stuff was used by the East germans in their state sponcered Doping program to boost the effectiveness of Anabolics. IMO these guys knew exactly what ti did and why they needed to take it and is very suspicious in my opinion.

And there is nothing at GNC that I would consider a "designer" substance.

[ESPNFan]

I think this is likely.

I agree as well. Look at howmany times The BALCO atheletes were tested by the IOC/WADA and there were no failed tests. MLB's testing leaves alot to be desired compared with their programs so the assumption is that more people will be successful at beting the system.

Also the craftiness of the Steroid designers is always increasing and naturally a step ahead of the testing. THG was a prime example of this.

And third the MLB has to make sure that they actually test for every substanc ethat they say is banned. Only the lab that they are using knows if they do that.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Its a tough call..I said in a different post that a player knows when he is playing clean or not. But I will say I was taking a suppliment a few years ago that was perfectly legal, sold over the counter at GNC and it was a "testosterone precursor" I had absolutely no concern at all that I was doing something wrong. 1) It wasn't banned by the game. 2) I could buy it at GNC. That suppliment is now banned and I no longer use it. I guess some might consider this "precursor" a Designer drug, I don't know.

Yeah, that's the loophole in the system, and why GNC is able to sell that stuff. Because like you said, what they sell isn't actually steroids, or really a form of cheating; but once it's digested and passes through the liver, your body turns it into an illegal substance.

[hiddengem]

ok. thanx.

do you think that baseball ought to retroactively act against players?
take action against someone for using something that was an illegal substance but at the same time not disallowed by mlb? >>> mcgwire using andro, f'rinstance?

what do you suppose is the take by your fellow brothers on this question?

hats off for fielding these questions, hg.

No problem...

First off, When all of us were using Andro, it wasn't illegal and it wasn't banned, so that doesn't really work.

But to answer the question, I do not think MLB should go after somebody that took ped's before they were tested for or made illegal by MLB. There are hundreds of players that have taken ped's before the policy.

My teamates would feel the same.

[johncap]

So..this is how we're going to let Barry off the hook, eh?

Der spinmeisters are hard at work I see.
Greenies do NOT enhance performance. In fact they DEGRADE performance. You obviously have a problem with Mike Schmidt. With all the slack the REAL cheaters, McGwire, Bonds, and even Sosa have gotten for USING performance enhancers, you want ot attack Schmidt for using something that didn't enhance his game that pretty much every player used recreationally during that time! Get a life! :atthepc

[runningshoes]

Greenies do NOT enhance performance. In fact they DEGRADE performance. You obviously have a problem with Mike Schmidt. With all the slack the REAL cheaters, McGwire, Bonds, and even Sosa have gotten for USING performance enhancers, you want ot attack Schmidt for using something that didn't enhance his game that pretty much every player used recreationally during that time! Get a life! :atthepc

What problem with Schmidt?

I'm saying people are using the Schmidt argument to justify Bonds cheating.

They're pouting that spin on it.

I really think you're having a problem with comprehension here.

You tell me how you came to the conclusion I have a problem with Mike Schmidt?

Did anyone else draw the same conclusion as johncap based on what I've written here?

[johncap]

What problem with Schmidt?

I'm saying people are using the Schmidt argument to justify Bonds cheating.

They're pouting that spin on it.

I really think you're having a problem with comprehension here.

You tell me how you came to the conclusion I have a problem with Mike Schmidt?

Did anyone else draw the same conclusion as johncap based on what I've written here?
First of all you ripped Schmidt elsewhere regarding this topic AND your opinion that he's not the best 3B of all time, and considerably less than that, in our Phillies area. So, the comment I made comes from a broader "COMPREHENSION" of your words than just what is written in this thread.

Your points have been very clear, and um, pointed.

[CrimeInTheCards]

Greenies do NOT enhance performance. In fact they DEGRADE performance. You obviously have a problem with Mike Schmidt. With all the slack the REAL cheaters, McGwire, Bonds, and even Sosa have gotten for USING performance enhancers, you want ot attack Schmidt for using something that didn't enhance his game that pretty much every player used recreationally during that time! Get a life! :atthepc

Greenies dont enhance performance ???????????????????

Ridiculous, an obvious apologist mentality. Ofcourse greenies help, Infact they help a lot. Any baseball player or athlete for that matter knows this, and that's why they've been used for years.

[johncap]

Greenies dont enhance performance ???????????????????

Ridiculous, an obvious apologist mentality. Ofcourse greenies help, Infact they help a lot. Any baseball player or athlete for that matter knows this, and that's why they've been used for years.
Um, no, you're wrong. They give you the perception you're playing better, but they do NOT enhance performance. Nor, do they alter the physique, build muscle, increase strength or stamina. They're more "recreational". Not in the same realm as steroids.

Mike Schmidt is the LAST guy I'd apologize for. All you need to do is check photos of him at any stage of his career and then tell me he did anything to cheat or give himself an edge. It's ridiculous to even discuss this in the same thread as Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and the rest.

[CrimeInTheCards]

Um, no, you're wrong. They give you the perception you're playing better, but they do NOT enhance performance. Nor, do they alter the physique, build muscle, increase strength or stamina. They're more "recreational". Not in the same realm as steroids.

Mike Schmidt is the LAST guy I'd apologize for. All you need to do is check photos of him at any stage of his career and then tell me he did anything to cheat or give himself an edge. It's ridiculous to even discuss this in the same thread as Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and the rest.

Ridiculous, you have no clue what your talking about. They are DEFINITELY a performance enhancer. I once wrote a 20 page paper about greenies in under 5 hours (thats including research) and got an A. I've known pitchers who've increased the velocity of their fastball after taking a dose of greenies. You are nothing but an apologist, and not worth my time.

[johncap]

Ridiculous, you have no clue what your talking about. They are DEFINITELY a performance enhancer. I once wrote a 20 page paper about greenies in under 5 hours (thats including research) and got an A. I've known pitchers who've increased the velocity of their fastball after taking a dose of greenies. You are nothing but an apologist, and not worth my time.
Awe, you hurt my feelings. Especially with the hint of what team you root for in your name! You rooted for a creep and a cheat! Don't try and take that out on the rest of us! I'm glad for your paper. I'm sure the five hours were well spent. :crazy

[hiddengem]

Greenies do NOT enhance performance. In fact they DEGRADE performance.


Yet another Typical comment from a fan that has his head in the sand.

[hiddengem]

Mike Schmidt is the LAST guy I'd apologize for. All you need to do is check photos of him at any stage of his career and then tell me he did anything to cheat or give himself an edge. It's ridiculous to even discuss this in the same thread as Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, and the rest.

He just admitted today that had Steroids been around heavily during his era, and he felt like other players were getting an edge over him because of them, that he would have considered taking them. We already know he took greenies to try and get an edge, he admitted that as well. Care to change your stance?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Yet another Typical comment from a fan that has his head in the sand.

HG, no doubt they can enhance performance to various degrees depending on the user. Espcially when someone is feeling well below 100%. If someone is feeling fresh and already alert, how far above 100% would you guess greenies can take them?

[ESPNFan]

Ridiculous, you have no clue what your talking about. They are DEFINITELY a performance enhancer. I once wrote a 20 page paper about greenies in under 5 hours (thats including research) and got an A. I've known pitchers who've increased the velocity of their fastball after taking a dose of greenies. You are nothing but an apologist, and not worth my time.

LOL so were to believe you because you wrote a paper and you claim to follow pitchers (not named obviously) and know when their on greenies and how fast their throwing pre and post amphetamines? Let me guess you own a radar gun too?

I really dont think you should be commenting on who's posts are wasting peoples time.

[johncap]

He just admitted today that had Steroids been around heavily during his era, and he felt like other players were getting an edge over him because of them, that he would have considered taking them. We already know he took greenies to try and get an edge, he admitted that as well. Care to change your stance?
And exactly what does that conclude? It concludes he was weak, and he'd admit that. So he chickend out on the "hard stuff" and took what made him feel good without the fear of the damage of the real stuff. There's a HUGE difference between taking body altering substances with KNOWN extreme consequences and taking mood altering drugs that provide the perception that you're excelling at something you may actually be faltering at under the influence.

Here's a clip from another thread here on this topic. And this is what I understand to be the case for greenies and similar substances:

"No doubt amphetamines made you feel faster, but were you actually faster, or did you just feel faster because of the increased energy?"

This is an absurdly ridiculous transference of blame from people who have been perpetrating an ongoing charade that only dopes accepted or are continuing to deny vs Schmidt coming out and saying what he said. No comparison. If you think I'm apologizing for Schmidt, good for you. In the end I really don't give a rat's petooty. I'm tickled pink that the real cheats are getting raked over the coals for this garbage, and nothing will come of Schmidt's comments because what he did amounts to ZILCH, ZERO, NOTHING! If he did cheat, it certainly didn't alter his VERY consistent numbers throughout his career, unlike the dramatic changes in the numbers of the real culprits. Talk chemistry all you want, cast aspersions all you want, the facts are in the numbers and in front of your eyes!

[hiddengem]

And exactly what does that conclude? It concludes he was weak, and he'd admit that. So he chickend out on the "hard stuff" and took what made him feel good without the fear of the damage of the real stuff.

He didn't chicken out on anything. I'm quite positive with as much of a competitor that Mike was and as much pride as he had (he admitted that he was very concerned about being the best in the game) if he thought his competition was better than him because of Roids he would have jumped right in. He says he didn't think this was the case, and thus the reason he didn't take them.

"No doubt amphetamines made you feel faster, but were you actually faster, or did you just feel faster because of the increased energy?"

Well, a pitcher on my team last year had never pitched above 91mph in his career. The first day he took a greenie he hit 93mph. How do you explain that?

[hiddengem]

HG, no doubt they can enhance performance to various degrees depending on the user. Espcially when someone is feeling well below 100%. If someone is feeling fresh and already alert, how far above 100% would you guess greenies can take them?

Let me just say that the amount of time a professional players spends at 100% is about zero. So a greenie will always make you do certain activities better; Running, swinging, throwing ect. But certain players don't like how they make them feel, just like certain steroids, greenies react to players differently.

[johncap]

Well, a pitcher on my team last year had never pitched above 91mph in his career. The first day he took a greenie he hit 93mph. How do you explain that?
A guy humping up because he's altered and hitting 93 doesn't mean he can sustain it. It also doesn't translate to being bigger, stronger, able to work out longer, rebound faster, and on and on. A 2MPH increase in peak performance is not a measure that that pitcher had gained any significant performance level that would translate to wins or strikeouts or anything else.

And, I heard it said in conjunction with his book release that Schmidt was afraid of the juice and thus stayed away.

[hiddengem]

A guy humping up because he's altered and hitting 93 doesn't mean he can sustain it. It also doesn't translate to being bigger, stronger, able to work out longer, rebound faster, and on and on. A 2MPH increase in peak performance is not a measure that that pitcher had gained any significant performance level that would translate to wins or strikeouts or anything else.

The same guy humped up many times in his career and hit 91. Why was that nights "hump" any different?

And, I heard it said in conjunction with his book release that Schmidt was afraid of the juice and thus stayed away.

Well I "heard" it straight from Mike's mouth. He said nothing about being afraid of it. He simply said if he thought his competition was gaining an edge over him because of them, he would have considered them. He didn't think they were, so he didn't seek them out.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Well, a pitcher on my team last year had never pitched above 91mph in his career. The first day he took a greenie he hit 93mph. How do you explain that?

Increased heart rate, adrenaline, and pushing himself harder than he normally would with no regard for what injury might occur? Just a guess.

HG, you never really answered my question. I understand that from spring training on, players are rarely if ever at 100%. I meant 100% in terms of the "norm" that you would expect. If a normal player takes care of himself, is rested, strong, and focused, how far above "100%" do you think it would take him. Don't you think the true benefits come when you really need the pick me up, and it really can just take you back up to the norm? Just tryin' to get your perspective, your opinion is always appreciated.

[johncap]

The same guy humped up many times in his career and hit 91. Why was that nights "hump" any different?
Gee, did he hit 95 two weeks later, and 96 a week after that? Is this a scientific experiment? Billy Wagner hit 100 a number of times last year, but on many occasions couldn't get over 96 or 97. Maybe it was his biorhythms. Point is reaching a momentary peek is still not sustainable enhanced performance. Which is exactly what steroids provide.

[hiddengem]

Increased heart rate, adrenaline, and pushing himself harder than he normally would with no regard for what injury might occur? Just a guess.

I suppose, I don't know. I just know that I've seen a kid run a 3.8 to first base on a greenie when his previous best was a 4.1.

HG, you never really answered my question. I understand that from spring training on, players are rarely if ever at 100%. I meant 100% in terms of the "norm" that you would expect. If a normal player takes care of himself, is rested, strong, and focused, how far above "100%" do you think it would take him. Don't you think the true benefits come when you really need the pick me up, and it really can just take you back up to the norm? Just tryin' to get your perspective, your opinion is always appreciated.

I don't know, 110%. I think that Greenies are used for that exactly. They raise your level of play back up to where you feel 100% fresh. Things don't hurt anymore, your arm feels great, your legs feel light, the bat feels light. They cure that 3:30 am wake up call you had to the airport to fly accross the country for a 7:05 start.

If one of my teamates takes a greenie before that game and I don't, he's going to have an edge over me, because I'll be dragging like a big dog and he'll feel like a million bucks.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Gee, did he hit 95 two weeks later, and 96 a week after that? Is this a scientific experiment? Billy Wagner hit 100 a number of times last year, but on many occasions couldn't get over 96 or 97. Maybe it was his biorhythms. Point is reaching a momentary peek is still not sustainable enhanced performance. Which is exactly what steroids provide.

Hey John, it seems we pretty much agree that individual performance can vary depending on a large number of factors. Whether it was the greenie that pushed him to 93 or not, who knows. Having said that HG is one of the most respected posters here for his background and his knowledge, so we should be careful not to come off overly rude or sarcastic. Not saying you meant to be harsh, it was probably in good fun ;)

[hiddengem]

Gee, did he hit 95 two weeks later, and 96 a week after that? Is this a scientific experiment? Billy Wagner hit 100 a number of times last year, but on many occasions couldn't get over 96 or 97. Maybe it was his biorhythms. Point is reaching a momentary peek is still not sustainable enhanced performance. Which is exactly what steroids provide.

Ok, I give up. There is a reason why our union fought so hard to have a lesser policy against greenies than roids.

[runningshoes]

Ok, I give up. There is a reason why our union fought so hard to have a lesser policy against greenies than roids.

Don't be so cryptic HG, tell us the reason as you understand it.

[hiddengem]

Don't be so cryptic HG, tell us the reason as you understand it. Because far more players rely on them than roids.

[runningshoes]

Because far more players rely on them than roids.

If you had to guess, what percentage of players use them?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Ok, I give up. There is a reason why our union fought so hard to have a lesser policy against greenies than roids.

Are you trying to get across the point that they fought so hard because they did not want to be put in a position where they might be in trouble if they did use them.They wanted to hang on to their greenies, is that your point.

It was not greenies that turned Barry into the size of the Hindenburg.
I don't think most would disagree wth your point, greenies can give one a boost, steroids can add muscle and strength.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I don't think most would disagree wth your point, greenies can give one a boost, steroids can add muscle and strength.

Loved the Hindenburg line Joe :D We can't sell steroids short though, as you know, they do more than just add muscle and strength. Steroids are like a permanent greenie with massive strength and stamina on top of it.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Because far more players rely on them than roids.


I don't doubt that more would use greenies, simply because they fear the health hazards of steroids more. Makes sense to me. Both can do harm but lets face the facts, steroids are scarrier to most.

[hiddengem]

If you had to guess, what percentage of players use them?

I dont know, it probably changes as the season wears on. Guys on the 40 man roster are the only ones that can take advantage of the 1st offense being a slap on the wrist, so the percentage of players under that policy will be much higher.

[CrimeInTheCards]

The same guy humped up many times in his career and hit 91. Why was that nights "hump" any different?


Well I "heard" it straight from Mike's mouth. He said nothing about being afraid of it. He simply said if he thought his competition was gaining an edge over him because of them, he would have considered them. He didn't think they were, so he didn't seek them out.


I agree with your post about a pitcher increasing the velocity of his fastball while using greenies - I knew a guy who went from 86mph-89mph because of greenies.

As a hockey player myself, They enable me to perform better, and longer, without them I don't produce nearly as much as I do when taking them. Anybody who isnt an apologist should know the impact greenies has on an athletes performance, pure and simple.

[hiddengem]

Are you trying to get across the point that they fought so hard because they did not want to be put in a position where they might be in trouble if they did use them.They wanted to hang on to their greenies, is that your point. Yes


I don't think most would disagree wth your point, greenies can give one a boost, steroids can add muscle and strength.

I agree.

[hiddengem]

I don't doubt that more would use greenies, simply because they fear the health hazards of steroids more. Makes sense to me. Both can do harm but lets face the facts, steroids are scarrier to most.


I've spoke to Dr.s that say a Cycle of steroids at the prescribed dosage is like lubing your car once a year.

Greenies give you instant feeback, while Roids are taken over a period of 3-8 weeks depending on your cycle. Roids are a process where Greenies are not.

[hiddengem]

I agree with your post about a pitcher increasing the velocity of his fastball while using greenies - I knew a guy who went from 86mph-89mph because of greenies.

As a hockey player myself, They enable me to perform better, and longer, without them I don't produce nearly as much as I do when taking them. Anybody who isnt an apologist should know the impact greenies has on an athletes performance, pure and simple.

Most of the folks on here are speaking based on pure speculation rather than real life experience. You and I understand what they do because we deal with them daily.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Where will it all end .
First it was Barry did not use steroids all rumors unproven.

Now we have the truth, so now it's "so what."
What about all the other cheaters.
What about greenies.
Gaylord Perry.
Corked bats


Well what about all that, Barry used steroids and now he takes that cloud with him, thats the story. The spotlight is on him, because he is rewriting the record book, not because we don't like him, not because he's black. The others are no better but he is the guy with the numbers, can we cut the nonsense and face the facts.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The others are no better but he is the guy with the numbers, can we cut the nonsense and face the facts.

You know what they say Joe, the best defense, is a good offense. They know what's up.

I can respect those that bring up the greenie issue, as long as it's clear they understand the difference in levels of benefit. One doesn't excuse the other, but we can't paint all forms of cheating with one broad stroke. Barry is what matters because he's going after a record. A record that he would not be going after if his abuse only extended to greenie use.

[digglahhh]

So, if greenie don't REALLY CHANGE anything, just alter your perception of how you feel about yourself and interpret stimuli and that makes them, okay, I assume you wouldn't mind at all if you found out your daughter's boyfriend took LSD or smoked PCP on a regular basis. After if all, it doesn't really affect him, he just thinks it does...

[digglahhh]

The spotlight is on him, because he is rewriting the record book, not because we don't like him, not because he's black. The others are no better but he is the guy with the numbers, can we cut the nonsense and face the facts.

This is what I've been saying since the beginning- Great post!

Let's get off our moral high horses here and admit that we are anrgy that this man is breaking some of the most revered records in sports.

We can debate to what degrees different acts are cheating, but one this is clear, we have never seen outrage like this and the record book is the reason why. Let's not delude ourselves about our reverence of fair play, because the history of our reactions to previous indiscretions don't substantiate the claims we are making now.

[west coast orange and black]

hiddengem: There is a reason why our union fought so hard to have a lesser policy against greenies than roids.

ding-ding-ding!

[west coast orange and black]

hiddengem: I've spoke to Dr.s that say a Cycle of steroids at the prescribed dosage is like lubing your car once a year ... Roids are a process...

many athletes have been on steroid programs for upwards of 15 years without experiencing any negative effects. when it comes to steroids, it is all about maintaining limits, staying within boundaries.

[CrimeInTheCards]

Most of the folks on here are speaking based on pure speculation rather than real life experience. You and I understand what they do because we deal with them daily.

I agree, But it should be pretty obvious that greenies enhance athletic performance, only an apologist would be blind to this fact. It's been used by the majority of athletes for years, and it always works, especially in physical sports. I mean if baseball players are saying greenies have had a huge impact on baseball, what more proof do you really need ?

[hiddengem]

Where will it all end .
First it was Barry did not use steroids all rumors unproven.

Now we have the truth, so now it's "so what."
What about all the other cheaters.
What about greenies.
Gaylord Perry.
Corked bats


Well what about all that, Barry used steroids and now he takes that cloud with him, thats the story. The spotlight is on him, because he is rewriting the record book, not because we don't like him, not because he's black. The others are no better but he is the guy with the numbers, can we cut the nonsense and face the facts.


Yea, I'm quite positive we could find others in the record books that have cheated. Maybe Barry was a better cheater. Why ostrasize him becasue of it?

[hiddengem]

So, if greenie don't REALLY CHANGE anything, just alter your perception of how you feel about yourself and interpret stimuli and that makes them, okay, I assume you wouldn't mind at all if you found out your daughter's boyfriend took LSD or smoked PCP on a regular basis. After if all, it doesn't really affect him, he just thinks it does...

Pure Genious...outsanding.

[hiddengem]

I mean if baseball players are saying greenies have had a huge impact on baseball, what more proof do you really need ?

None at all.

[hiddengem]

hiddengem: I've spoke to Dr.s that say a Cycle of steroids at the prescribed dosage is like lubing your car once a year ... Roids are a process...

many athletes have been on steroid programs for upwards of 15 years without experiencing any negative effects. when it comes to steroids, it is all about maintaining limits, staying within boundaries.


Hmm...very interesting.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ care to expound? wanna ask a question? :waving

[ESPNFan]

I agree, But it should be pretty obvious that greenies enhance athletic performance, only an apologist would be blind to this fact. It's been used by the majority of athletes for years, and it always works, especially in physical sports. I mean if baseball players are saying greenies have had a huge impact on baseball, what more proof do you really need ?

It always works? I'm not an expert but I know BS when I see it. None of these Drugs work for everyone the same(results wise).

Its been used by the majority of athletes for years? Where is your research that notates an over 50% of athletes in all of sports are on amphetamines?
Uninformed BLanket Statements don't help anyone figure out what is going on.

[hiddengem]

^^ care to expound? wanna ask a question? :waving

no, I just find it interesting how many people around here say this and that about how dangereous this stuff is and here you say what I've already known, that people that do this the right way have very little issues if any.

[hiddengem]

It always works? I'm not an expert but I know BS when I see it. None of these Drugs work for everyone the same(results wise).

Its been used by the majority of athletes for years? Where is your research that notates an over 50% of athletes in all of sports are on amphetamines?
Uninformed BLanket Statements don't help anyone figure out what is going on.

Nobody really knows forsure the exact % of athletes that use. But I'd be willing to bet that at any given time during the dog days that 50% of the players on a field have taken one before the game...In the big leagues that is. Its not uncommon to have a pot of coffee with beans (greenies) already in it and the players just go pour themselves a cup. Just that simple.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

And the benefits in general are nowhere near steroids, period.

[west coast orange and black]

care to expound? ask a question?

no...

decent.

[west coast orange and black]

hg, thanx for being particularly forthcoming.

try this one: players who used greenies at a time when steroids were not widely available.

do you suppose that your *average major leaguer* supposes that if available back then, those who took greenies would reach for the steroid bowl instead?

[hiddengem]

hg, thanx for being particularly forthcoming.

try this one: players who used greenies at a time when steroids were not widely available.

do you suppose that your *average major leaguer* supposes that if available back then, those who took greenies would reach for the steroid bowl instead?

sure, I would think so.

[ESPNFan]

Nobody really knows forsure the exact % of athletes that use. But I'd be willing to bet that at any given time during the dog days that 50% of the players on a field have taken one before the game...In the big leagues that is. Its not uncommon to have a pot of coffee with beans (greenies) already in it and the players just go pour themselves a cup. Just that simple.

My problem is not with a baseball estimate. Its the general lack of facts behind the statements. How can you make an estimate that the majority of athletes, not ball players, are on speed and not have some type of proof to back the statement . You can't just come out and say that one of every two professional athletes take them and leave it like that. And he's wrong that thier taken for "physical" sports, their taken for energy or endurance. Heck any sport could be "physical". Do pro Bowlers pop speed? And once again they don't "work" for everyone. Some for some people it may make them feel anxious, naucious tired ot just plain sick. It's irresponcible and incorrect. Also we have never gotten an explination as to how he knows pitchers have thrown faster or how he even knows their on greenies.

I have read about the amphetamines stories of putting them in the coffe pots and having one with amphetimines and another marked "decafe" that wasn't so much decaf as it was unspiked.

My problem with ampetamines is that their benifits or percived benifits don't mesh with the science behind them. With Steroids you can clearly see how they work and what they do for an athlete. How can something that rasies your heart rate, resperation and blood pressure and can effect your motor skills be helpful? Not to mention the long term side effects and the fact that you build tollerance to them. But your legitimate first hand accounts say otherwise. Why is that? I think that its because the stimuli comes from the brain/central nervous system and it that can directly influence the players perception and the feeling of elation or euphoria that some users describe can give a psychological boost to a players performance. Thats the best reason I can come up with. Also don't count out the dependance factor either. some peopel are taking them for so long that much like any addiction they become dependant on them and naturally at that point will perform better with them then without them.

[hiddengem]

My problem is not with a baseball estimate. Its the general lack of facts behind the statements. How can you make an estimate that the majority of athletes, not ball players, are on speed and not have some type of proof to back the statement . You can't just come out and say that one of every two professional athletes take them and leave it like that. And he's wrong that thier taken for "physical" sports, their taken for energy or endurance. Heck any sport could be "physical". Do pro Bowlers pop speed? And once again they don't "work" for everyone. Some for some people it may make them feel anxious, naucious tired ot just plain sick. It's irresponcible and incorrect. Also we have never gotten an explination as to how he knows pitchers have thrown faster or how he even knows their on greenies.

I have read about the amphetamines stories of putting them in the coffe pots and having one with amphetimines and another marked "decafe" that wasn't so much decaf as it was unspiked.

My problem with ampetamines is that their benifits or percived benifits don't mesh with the science behind them. With Steroids you can clearly see how they work and what they do for an athlete. How can something that rasies your heart rate, resperation and blood pressure and can effect your motor skills be helpful? Not to mention the long term side effects and the fact that you build tollerance to them. But your legitimate first hand accounts say otherwise. Why is that? I think that its because the stimuli comes from the brain/central nervous system and it that can directly influence the players perception and the feeling of elation or euphoria that some users describe can give a psychological boost to a players performance. Thats the best reason I can come up with. Also don't count out the dependance factor either. some peopel are taking them for so long that much like any addiction they become dependant on them and naturally at that point will perform better with them then without them.

I don't really know what to say. I just know that I see people take them when they are dog tired, and it makes them feel like gold. I do know that players get dependant on them, I played with a guy a few years back that took up to 4 greenies a day. This guy played balls to the wall every single day, and I think the amphetamines played a large role in that.

[ESPNFan]

I don't really know what to say. I just know that I see people take them when they are dog tired, and it makes them feel like gold. I do know that players get dependant on them. I played with a guy a few years back that took up to 4 greenies a day. This guy played balls to the wall every single day, and I think the amphetamines played a large role in that.

I'm not asking you for an explanation because there is no easy explanation behind them. What you tell us actually helps us understand why they might work. But can you see the point that I'm trying to make? It's much harder to understand from a scientific point of veiw exactly how they help. But if players have been takign them for decades then there has to be some reason even if it is just a jolt before a game or something more. Thats what people here are trying to quantify.

[hiddengem]

But if players have been takign them for decades then there has to be some reason even if it is just a jolt before a game or something more. Thats what people here are trying to quantify.


I think its been said about 20 times on this thread..but I'll say it again. For those of you that have never played a 162 game schedule with games up to 25-30 straight days in a row in 8 different cities. You can't imagine what that does to your body. Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.

That is what they do for you.

[ESPNFan]

I think its been said about 20 times on this thread..but I'll say it again. For those of you that have never played a 162 game schedule with games up to 25-30 straight days in a row in 8 different cities. You can't imagine what that does to your body. Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.

That is what they do for you.

Just curious, how much of that fatigue and wear and tear comes from the actual travel and not being able to eat what you want/healthy or distractions poor/ not enough sleep etc.. And how much of it is the physical activity itself?

[hiddengem]

Just curious, how much of that fatigue and wear and tear comes from the actual travel and not being able to eat what you want/healthy or distractions poor/ not enough sleep etc.. And how much of it is the physical activity itself?


In the Big Leagues you get treated pretty darn good. You get first class meals after the game, 5 star hotels, and private plane rides the night before. But you've got guys that are 30-40 yrs old that have been grinding this career out for many many years. You could go out on a Monday night game, dive for a ball and tweak your shoulder, then on tuesday get hit with a 90mph fastball in the shin and on Wednesday play a night game with a day game on Thursday morning.

Fan's/mgt could care less as to how much your body hurts or how much rest you've had. All they do is expect you to perform day in and day out, and if you don't they boo you.

In the Minor leagues its even worse. Average food, decent hotels, terrible travel and not much money to keep up on a decent diet. On top of the same physical strain on your body that the big leaguers have.

Its a Dog eat Dog world, not some fairytale that most people think of when they hear you play baseball for a living. But then again, I wouldn't give up my job for very many things, because I love the game.

[johncap]

Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.
And the juice turns you into the hulk. No comparison.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Amphetamines make you feel like its april when its actually August. That sore arm isn't sore anymore. That heavy bat is suddenly light again, those heavy legs feel fresh again, ect ect.


This is an important point, and speaks to the differences between greenies and steroids. You feel more energized, therefore you feel more fresh. If we understand why muscles get sore, then we also should know that no matter how many greenies you're on, your muscles are still sore even though you can't feel it. Small tears in your muscle fibers, lactic acid buildup, it all plays into muscle soreness. Taking a greenie will mask the pain, taking steroids will prevent the pain from being there in the first place. Much the same way icy hot or any of those creams do nothing for the actual muscle. They just irritate the skin surface, giving you the feeling of relief, but that's it.

[hiddengem]

And the juice turns you into the hulk. No comparison.

Thanks for the heads up.

[johncap]

Thanks for the heads up.
Any time. :dance

[digglahhh]

HG,

Admittedly my post was hyberbolic,(and personally, I don't even have a problem with moderate use of recreational drugs) but I am from the "perception is reality" school.

I mean you've called people out of touch, typical know-nothing fans, etc. So have I, that is our perception of them resonating with our beliefs and then defining our reality, ie, "that guy knows nothing" is truthfully "its is my perception that that guy knows nothing."

Whether greenies increase your natural peak or potential, in an actual physical or psycho-pharmocological sesne is immaterial. If you feel like they do, or think they do- they do. I mean this is the foundation of the placebo effect.

I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

I mean, tons of FDA approved medications, and virtually all over the counter remedies show no drop off in efficacy when replaced with placebos, so who's to say what would happen?

[ESPNFan]

HG,

Admittedly my post was hyberbolic,(and personally, I don't even have a problem with moderate use of recreational drugs) but I am from the "perception is reality" school.

I mean you've called people out of touch, typical know-nothing fans, etc. So have I, that is our perception of them resonating with our beliefs and then defining our reality, ie, "that guy knows nothing" is truthfully "its is my perception that that guy knows nothing."

Whether greenies increase your natural peak or potential, in an actual physical or psycho-pharmocological sesne is immaterial. If you feel like they do, or think they do- they do. I mean this is the foundation of the placebo effect.

I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

I mean, tons of FDA approved medications, and virtually all over the counter remedies show no drop off in efficacy when replaced with placebos, so who's to say what would happen?

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.
This is my main point of contention. Nobody is saying that amphetamines do nothing. What we are saying is that the almost institutionalized perception of what they do for a player and the actual benefits of them may be two different things. Especially considering the psycotropic nature of the chemicals in question. A person's subconsious and perception can in some cases be just as powerful as some medications. This is why double blind testing with a placebo controll group is so important, as digglahhh pointed out.

My problem with amphetamines has always been the extreme danger they pose as opposed to steroids and much less the "cheating" accusations they have recently garnered.

[digglahhh]

To further this notion, on a sort of tangential plane,

Doesn't anybody find it somewhat striking the amount of athletes that begin to embrace, at least parts of, Eastern Philosophy and rituals? Athletics is very much alpha-male and meditation, yoga, feng shui, spirituality and mental exercises are certainly not seen as such. However, often times you see professional atheltes alluding to the power of nature, positive thinking and the like. The advocates of the spiritual forms of betterment often emphasize the importance of visualizing your achievement of something or the personal belief in the ability for one to do these things as the first step to actuaizing these goals.

Isn't that sort of like a natural greenie. Those who partake in these types of activities report great increases in energy and "life-force" or "chi."

I don't know exactly where I'm going here, but if the debate is really about the semantic nuances of "natural," "enhanced," "potential" and "100%" this seems like it may have a place within the discussion as a sort of mental greenie, a natural and legal, life affirming and productive way to increase your potential.

Anybody who has seen highly advanced martial artists, shamans or shirpas can certainly understand the potential benefits to athletes to try to develop similar abilities.

[johncap]

To further this notion, on a sort of tangential plane,

Doesn't anybody find it somewhat striking the amount of athletes that begin to embrace, at least parts of, Eastern Philosophy and rituals? Athletics is very much alpha-male and meditation, yoga, feng shui, spirituality and mental exercises are certainly not seen as such. However, often times you see professional atheltes alluding to the power of nature, positive thinking and the like. The advocates of the spiritual forms of betterment often emphasize the importance of visualizing your achievement of something or the personal belief in the ability for one to do these things as the first step to actuaizing these goals.

Isn't that sort of like a natural greenie. Those who partake in these types of activities report great increases in energy and "life-force" or "chi."

I don't know exactly where I'm going here, but if the debate is really about the semantic nuances of "natural," "enhanced," "potential" and "100%" this seems like it may have a place within the discussion as a sort of mental greenie, a natural and legal, life affirming and productive way to increase your potential.

Anybody who has seen highly advanced martial artists, shamans or shirpas can certainly understand the potential benefits to athletes to try to develop similar abilities.
This is exactly where I was just gonna go, in a much more basic sense. If the chemical point regarding greenies, etc is that they provide a psychological advantage more than a physical one, than hypnotherapy shouldn't be considered any less of a problem. I think this is taking things to an extreme. There is STILL no comparison between using anabolic steroids and stuff like greenies, from what I've heard, read and seen on the subject, and for those who seem to want to downplay the sins of McGwire, bonds, Giambi, etc by up-playing what Schmidt admitted to are way off base.

[digglahhh]

Achieving these things through therapy, meditation, yoga, etc. is "natural" and can be summoned individually at his/her own will. Taking a greenie is not an analogy, its a simulation- if the two are comparable in effect.

Its like writing a brilliant paper vs. plageurizing one. If you write it, you learn and have that knowledge, if you copy it you just manipulate an outside source for your personal gain and benefit nothing beyond the immediate cosmetic effect.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

May I ask it again, only a small sample only one hitter the man we are discussing.
Would a 200 pound Barry on greenies be any more dangerous than the Hindenberg like Barry at 230 pounds.

[l Stereotype]

HG,

Admittedly my post was hyberbolic,(and personally, I don't even have a problem with moderate use of recreational drugs) but I am from the "perception is reality" school.

I mean you've called people out of touch, typical know-nothing fans, etc. So have I, that is our perception of them resonating with our beliefs and then defining our reality, ie, "that guy knows nothing" is truthfully "its is my perception that that guy knows nothing."

Whether greenies increase your natural peak or potential, in an actual physical or psycho-pharmocological sesne is immaterial. If you feel like they do, or think they do- they do. I mean this is the foundation of the placebo effect.

I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?

I mean, tons of FDA approved medications, and virtually all over the counter remedies show no drop off in efficacy when replaced with placebos, so who's to say what would happen?

What greenies do is they give you a great boost right away, the second you take them. They help a lot in athletics, especially physical ones. I play multiple sports such as hockey, baseball, tennis, and soccer, and with my greenies I'm able to perform at an elite level in all those sports longer. You feel lighter, faster, and more durable, you definetly dont tire as quickly neither.

[l Stereotype]

May I ask it again, only a small sample only one hitter the man we are discussing.
Would a 200 pound Barry on greenies be any more dangerous than the Hindenberg like Barry at 230 pounds.

I dont think anyone is saying greenies helps more than steroids, you are completly misunderstanding.

People are just pointing out it's benefits, and how an athlete benefits from them. They help you perform better in physical sports. You dont tire that quickly, you feel less pain, more energized, faster, and lighter.

Also, the goodthing about them is there is no process, you just take them and that's it. Steroids is a whole process, working out, eating right, etc, too much time and not many ( atleast me and some people i know) dont have the time or discipline to do the whole steroidcocktail/regimen.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I dont think anyone is saying greenies helps more than steroids, you are completly misunderstanding.

People are just pointing out it's benefits, and how an athlete benefits from them. They help you perform better in physical sports. You dont tire that quickly, you feel less pain, more energized, faster, and lighter.

Also, the goodthing about them is there is no process, you just take them and that's it. Steroids is a whole process, working out, eating right, etc, too much time and not many ( atleast me and some people i know) dont have the time or discipline to do the whole steroidcocktail/regimen.

This is an important point, and speaks to the differences between greenies and steroids. You feel more energized, therefore you feel more fresh. If we understand why muscles get sore, then we also should know that no matter how many greenies you're on, your muscles are still sore even though you can't feel it. Small tears in your muscle fibers, lactic acid buildup, it all plays into muscle soreness. Taking a greenie will mask the pain, taking steroids will prevent the pain from being there in the first place. Much the same way icy hot or any of those creams do nothing for the actual muscle. They just irritate the skin surface, giving you the feeling of relief, but that's it.-----------------

[digglahhh]

Right, who has time to do right for your body, or to work for what you want?

Take speed.

Get lipo, breast implants, botox, whatever...

The goal shouldn't be to look healthy or con yourself into feeling healthy, but to actually be healthy.

I mean do whatever you want, and I'm not knocking you simply for taking PEDs, but to say you do so because you don't have time to eat right, work out, etc is a gross misprioritization.

[l Stereotype]

Right, who has time to do right for your body, or to work for what you want?

Take speed.

Get lipo, breast implants, botox, whatever...

The goal shouldn't be to look healthy or con yourself into feeling healthy, but to actually be healthy.

I mean do whatever you want, and I'm not knocking you simply for taking PEDs, but to say you do so because you don't have time to eat right, work out, etc is a gross misprioritization.

You dont understand.

Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results, Tom house did that and ended up being a " failed experiment ". You have to eat better, workout harder, take different types for different benefits, worry about injuring ligaments, acne, etc.

Greenies you just take, pure and simple, no process, no regimen, it's much easier, and you benefit from it.

I'm not saying one helps more than the other, but if you want an instant " boost " to play whatever sport you play better, greenies is the anwser.

[hiddengem]

I have wondered about this for a long time, what would happen if greenies were replaced for a game with placebos?



Well, I've seen it happen a few times where a player will pop a greenie and 20 minutes later doesn't feel what he normally acustom to feeling, so he goes back in and gets another one.

Apparantly its not all mental. But I already new that.

[hiddengem]

Greenies you just take, pure and simple, no process, no regimen, it's much easier, and you benefit from it.

I'm not saying one helps more than the other, but if you want an instant " boost " to play whatever sport you play better, greenies is the anwser.

You should be listening to this guy, he has as close an understanding of reality as I've heard.

[ESPNFan]

What greenies do is they give you a great boost right away, the second you take them. They help a lot in athletics, especially physical ones. I play multiple sports such as hockey, baseball, tennis, and soccer, and with my greenies I'm able to perform at an elite level in all those sports longer. You feel lighter, faster, and more durable, you definetly dont tire as quickly neither.
Hmm seems like where have heard this all before multiple times......

:rolleyes:

[l Stereotype]

Hmm seems like where have heard this all before multiple times......

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I keep getting kicked off for some reason, this is my third SN.

[digglahhh]

You dont understand...

I'm not saying one helps more than the other, but if you want an instant " boost " to play whatever sport you play better, greenies is the anwser.

No you don't understand.

I'm not comparing greenies to steroids at all.

If a woman wants a nicer figure she can get lipo. But if she wants to oversome her insecurities, better herself and transform herself into a physically and mentally healthy person, she has to lose the weight through work and develop her self-esteem in the process.

I'm talking about the health vs. wealth argument, that the gains made through shortcuts help you cash in but don't help YOU, in any way that isn't cosmetic. Is the concept of depth completely lost?

Most choose wealth over health (physical or mental) but then again most are anxious, stressed, fearful, unattentive and largely unhappy regardless of their superfiscial accolades, its all too typical.

Your personal benefit has instrinsic value that can't be trumped by records, money or anything else. I don't make much money, although I have had many offers to, but I'd rather be happy. So I have, ahem, put my money where my mouth is.

[l Stereotype]

No you don't understand.

I'm not comparing greenies to steroids at all.

If a woman wants a nicer figure she can get lipo. But if she wants to oversome her insecurities, better herself and transform herself into a physically and mentally healthy person, she has to lose the weight through work and develop her self-esteem in the process.

I'm talking about the health vs. wealth argument, that the gains made through shortcuts help you cash in but don't help YOU, in any way that isn't cosmetic. Is the concept of depth completely lost?

Most choose wealth over health (physical or mental) but then again most are anxious, stressed, fearful, unattentive and largely unhappy regardless of their superfiscial accolades, its all too typical.

Your personal benefit has instrinsic value that can't be trumped by records, money or anything else. I don't make much money, although I have had many offers to, but I'd rather be happy. So I have, ahem, put my money where my mouth is.

I see your point, which I believe is " why risk your life for something that benefits you now, but will harm you in the longrun ".

[Imapotato]

On a sidenote

A great thing Schmidt talks about (and yes, I am saying this because I preach it constantly on this site)

is to compare players of one era to their contemporaries

Which is why despite the ERA+, OPS+ and win shares...I think alot of so called HOFers from this era, are just very good...not great

[west coast orange and black]

l Stereotype: Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results...

which is one of the reasons i immediately had some problems with parts of canseco's book. shooting up just prior to gametime? that part simply make no sense to me.

[runningshoes]

l Stereotype: Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results...

which is one of the reasons i immediately had some problems with parts of canseco's book. shooting up just prior to gametime? that part simply make no sense to me.

I would suspect that once they're in your system, you can get immediate results.

I could be wrong, but that seems to make sense.

It takes an anti-depressent a couple weeks to get in you, but after that you feel daily benefits.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

l Stereotype: Steroids are a process, you dont just " juice up " and expect results...

which is one of the reasons i immediately had some problems with parts of canseco's book. shooting up just prior to gametime? that part simply make no sense to me.

It seems a bit off for sure, but it's hard to put ourselves in a users shoes. From all accounts, it's very psychological and shooting just before game time might add to that "superhuman" feeling once you step in the box.

[west coast orange and black]

runningshoes: I would suspect that once they're in your system, you can get immediate results.

not according to, uh, doctors and users.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: ...it's very psychological and shooting just before game time might add to that "superhuman" feeling once you step in the box.

that just may be. but *feeling*, other than some sort of (false) confidence ain't gonna do for jack at the plate. canseco and mcgwire needing shots to feel a certain way? i ain't buyin'.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sultan: ...it's very psychological and shooting just before game time might add to that "superhuman" feeling once you step in the box.

that just may be. but *feeling*, other than some sort of (false) confidence ain't gonna do for jack at the plate. canseco and mcgwire needing shots to feel a certain way? i ain't buyin'.

Just threw it out there as a "maybe." Who knows with those chumps, but that's the only reason that makes any sense to me. It would be real confidence knowing that they were taking steroids, and them taking a shot would just give them a recent reminder of that.