what the locals are saying

[west coast orange and black]

Well, that takes care of the theory that the best way to ameliorate an ongoing image problem is cross-dressing.

It was bound to go this way, you know. The good times for him don't last long, and that'll be the standard Bonds line in the wake of this particularly damning release. The cries for his retirement, or even banishment, from the game will resume.

There will be no final accounting, no resolution. Just more roping about doping.

It'll be business as usual, for all the usual suspects.
-ray ratto, sf chronicle sports writer, wednesday, 8 march 2006

ratto's story (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/03/08/SPGKDHKFQK1.DTL&type=printable)

[Astro]

I agree with Steve Finley... the authors chose to release this at the sametime as the WBC...

The WBC should be the big news, but instead negative perception of baseball will reign supreme

[west coast orange and black]

i think that lots of players will take the time, go out of their way a bit, to downplay the bonds story.
also, they will point out that the book's release occurs just one week prior to opening day 2006.

[TonyK]

Would the SF Giants even consider releasing Bonds? I know it's not a good business move, but it may benefit them more in the long run. Let another team put up with the fallout.

[Astro]

Would the SF Giants even consider releasing Bonds? I know it's not a good business move, but it may benefit them more in the long run. Let another team put up with the fallout.
Without Bonds they have 0 chance to make the playoffs... with Bonds they have about a 50% chance

If I were a Giants fan, and they released him, I'd be very angry.... that team is extremly old and built to win now...

[Elvis]

Would the SF Giants even consider releasing Bonds? I know it's not a good business move, but it may benefit them more in the long run. Let another team put up with the fallout.

I'd bet they're considering it as we speak, but it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition, so they likely wont.

However, if they do release him, his career is over. No other club would touch him - he's poison.

[johnny]

Well, that takes care of the theory that the best way to ameliorate an ongoing image problem is cross-dressing.

It was bound to go this way, you know. The good times for him don't last long, and that'll be the standard Bonds line in the wake of this particularly damning release. The cries for his retirement, or even banishment, from the game will resume.

There will be no final accounting, no resolution. Just more roping about doping.

It'll be business as usual, for all the usual suspects.
-ray ratto, sf chronicle sports writer, wednesday, 8 march 2006

ratto's story (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/03/08/SPGKDHKFQK1.DTL&type=printable)

from the article
"While the Bonds defenders wrap themselves around that one, the anti-Bonds morality squad has its own decision to make, the same decision it apparently has chosen not to make over the last several years -- namely, how best to advance the case that Bonds should be shunned as he closes in on Babe Ruth. Because so far, the case for banning Bonds has been shouted down by the rush of cash."

The last time MLB ignored long term good for short term cash we got that whole roids 'chicks dig the long ball era' and ended up defiling one of its most cherished records (Marris) and threatening another (Hank's).
Crap, I have little hope that Selig will go Judge Landis in the matter. Instead, MLB is just gonna hurt the integrity of the game.
Is anyone gonna feel good when Barry passes Hank? Anyone?

[TonyK]

from the article
"While the Bonds defenders wrap themselves around that one, the anti-Bonds morality squad has its own decision to make, the same decision it apparently has chosen not to make over the last several years -- namely, how best to advance the case that Bonds should be shunned as he closes in on Babe Ruth. Because so far, the case for banning Bonds has been shouted down by the rush of cash."

The last time MLB ignored long term good for short term cash we got that whole roids 'chicks dig the long ball era' and ended up defiling one of its most cherished records (Marris) and threatening another (Hank's).
Crap, I have little hope that Selig will go Judge Landis in the matter. Instead, MLB is just gonna hurt the integrity of the game.
Is anyone gonna feel good when Barry passes Hank? Anyone?

Maybe Al Downing might? ;-)

[johnny]

Maybe Al Downing might? ;-)

very good. :clapping

[DTF955]

I agree with Steve Finley... the authors chose to release this at the sametime as the WBC...

The WBC should be the big news, but instead negative perception of baseball will reign supreme

Well, the book's release date wouldn't have been any better. And, the problem is, *that* date it close to season's start. So, they were going to raise a stink no matter what, because if I'm not mistaken, the publisher is the one that picks a release date that is likely to make the most money. A late March date means the whole baseball season, 6 months when people are thinking baseball. Rather than, day, December, when nobody is thinking it.

Then there's the "attack journalism" angle. Now, i'm *not* saying this was a problem here - to me, this is becoming like Watergate, something that deserves to be told. (BTW, one piece of good news in all this. Unlike many scandals in the last 30 years, *nobody* has been dumb enough to put "-gate" in the scandal's name. People finally get the fact that Watergate was the name of the hotel, it was not the Water Hotel with some smarty thinking "-gate" was Latin for scandal." :-) I think if someone ever said "BALCO-gate" I would scream. :-)

What I am saying is that journalists are too often taught to *be* the news, not to simply report the news. And, in releasing this now, these men may have fallen prey to that. However, I think any book's release date is going to cause problems because of the above. (Then again, I could be wrong on when these are released, maybe the ahtor has some say.)

[KHenry14]

Would the SF Giants even consider releasing Bonds? I know it's not a good business move, but it may benefit them more in the long run. Let another team put up with the fallout.


There is zero chance of this happening. The entire team is built around one last year with Barry, we saw last year how they did without him. Frankly, no matter what people may think here, Barry's not hated in the clubhouse, he's not a cancer, and the team wins with him in the lineup. So why would the team get rid of him? If your only answer is for some type of morality play, uh, this is pro-sports, morality goes out the window in the face of winning. And with Barry, the Giants win.

KH14

[mojorisin71]

Would the SF Giants even consider releasing Bonds? I know it's not a good business move, but it may benefit them more in the long run. Let another team put up with the fallout.
As much as I'd like to see it happen (speaking as a Dodger fan), it ain't going to. Bonds is the reason why the Giants draw fans in the Bay Area, and like KHenry said, morality seldom gets in the way of winning in sports.

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by TonyK
Would the SF Giants even consider releasing Bonds? I know it's not a good business move, but it may benefit them more in the long run. Let another team put up with the fallout.
KHenry replied: There is zero chance of this happening. That's absolutely correct. That's not even discussed locally. Bonds' agent is spinning this as "old allegations", and indeed the Chronicle reported the gist of this when it got the grand jury testimony last year. So, in the local's eyes, the issue isn't whether he 'roided, but how much, and how soon did he realize it was really the evil stuff. The person who would have to make the initial move on this is Felipe Alou, and he's made it clear that he's not even going to discuss it. And Giants' management would have set the stage to make some kind of move long ago if they were planning on dumping him.

As far as being a distraction, all of 2005 was spent with the distraction of the grand jury testimony and the condition of Barry's knee, which kept him out until the last couple of weeks of the season. There's really no new distraction with this. The Giants aren't really worried about the "fallout". If anything, it's the majors' embarassment at being so slow to institute drug testing (and it should be the Players' Association's embarassment at resisting drug testing, but their officials' cluelessness is beyond the pale).

It'll all fade. When's the last time you heard real news (i.e., not jokes) about the occasion of the first U.S. Vice-President since Aaron Burr to shoot another human being? Weeks, huh? It'll be gone in 20 days, re-emerge briefly as he reaches 714, and lie quietly until he approaches 755.

[johnny]

If you google KNBR SF you will get the Giants Sports station. You can stream. They have two stations and the 680 is the one with more of a local angle. I have been streaming them off and on for the past day or so and it is interesting.

[ElCaminoSS]

Honestly I can't think of anything I like about the guy. He's cancer in the clubhouse, everyone seems pretty sure he's a juicer, he's said some pretty racist things (I dont sign for white people), and although I obviously dont know him personally he seems like a major jerk.

[KHenry14]

Honestly I can't think of anything I like about the guy. He's cancer in the clubhouse, everyone seems pretty sure he's a juicer, he's said some pretty racist things (I dont sign for white people), and although I obviously dont know him personally he seems like a major jerk.

Sorry to disabuse you of this El, but Barry's not a cancer. And never has been. He works with the young guys on the team all the time, and they very much appreciate his help. Sure, he's not everybody's best friend, but cancer? Not even close. And if he was so bad for the team, how come the Giants win when he's in the lineup? Add in to this he plays one of the few managers that wont put up with any crap from anyone, not even his star player. Believe me, if Felipe thought Barry was such a problem he'd deal with it, and in public too.

KH14

[ElCaminoSS]

Ok, I still disagree on that, but say your 100% right on that and Im 100% wrong. Theres still the 3 other things I said all of which pointing to him being a bad example and a disgrace to baseball.

[Mattingly]

Would the SF Giants even consider releasing Bonds? I know it's not a good business move, but it may benefit them more in the long run. Let another team put up with the fallout.
Considering he's their #1 draw, why would they get rid of their cash cow? He puts fannies into the seats. He may not be very popular in some parts, but with so many people kayaking to get to one of his belted balls, and the name "The Drink" (to my knowledge) originating from a longball he'd hit, I'd say they wouldn't be very wise to get rid of him.

That and the approximately $18m they'd owe him in 2006.

[iPod]

As much as I'd like to see it happen (speaking as a Dodger fan), it ain't going to. Bonds is the reason why the Giants draw fans in the Bay Area, and like KHenry said, morality seldom gets in the way of winning in sports.

I've not commented on anything steroid related on these forums, and won't start now, but I will say you're wrong in thinking the Giants only draw because of Bonds. They drew well last year without him, and without a good team.

[KHenry14]

Ok, I still disagree on that, but say your 100% right on that and Im 100% wrong. Theres still the 3 other things I said all of which pointing to him being a bad example and a disgrace to baseball.

OK, EL, it's your perogative to believe what you want, ill informed as it may be, but here's a quote from Steve Finley, a guy who's been around the block...

Seventeen-year player Steve Finley said, "Bonds is our teammate and we embrace him," while decrying release of the book, "Game of Shadows,"

If he felt differently he wouldn't have said that, he wouldn't have said anything.

New Giant Mark Sweeney goes on..."It's attention you know is going to happen," said Sweeney. "It's easy to go about our business every day and do our job. It's not a big deal. But the atmosphere here is good -- hopefully this turns into a story of us doing well."

Show me some non-Sports Illustrated sources that show he's a cancer and I''l retract.

KH14

[west coast orange and black]

ken, do you mind if i change your "zero chance" of bonds being released to a negative number?

you are excatly right about bonds in the clubhouse, and the giants' chances of winning with him in the lineup.

morality does go out the window, yer right.

also, mojo mentioned the giants draw fans at home. well, the giants have either been at the top or next to the top road draw in baseball for the past 5 or so years. that is not a coincidence. that is bonds.

[Zito75]

I have a cousin that is a lawyer and her husband is a mucky-muck guy at Apple and they live in Cupertino with the rest of the self-loathing snobs there. When I saw my cousin last spring, she said "Barry Bonds makes the games fun, that's why we go." I wonder how many other latte drinking, cell phone/ laptop toting casual fans will quit showing up IF Bonds is released? My perception of baseball in San Fran has totally been tarnished because of these sort of fans wanting to see "splash homeruns" and nothing more. Please tell me that REAL fans will stick around once Barry is done playing... What can the Giants do to get fans back to Pac Bell?

[KHenry14]

Zito, well, what happens post-Barry will be very interesting to say the least. The team will have a lot of money to spend, not only because of Barry's contract being up, but because Moises, Durham, Finley and few other's contracts also being up. Sabean is smart enough to know that he'll need to big splash to keep the turnstiles humming after Barry's gone...just who that might be remains to be seen of course. But I fully expect something big to happen.

KH14

[mojorisin71]

I've not commented on anything steroid related on these forums, and won't start now, but I will say you're wrong in thinking the Giants only draw because of Bonds. They drew well last year without him, and without a good team.
There's the novelty of a new ballpark, which helps increase attendance for a few years. Pac Bell/SBC/AT&T isn't all that old to begin with.

[west coast orange and black]

the main reason that the giants attendance has been so great is the unusually high percentage of season ticket holders.
(and their winning ways. and bonds.)

after the 2007 season, though, it'll be time for the initial season ticket buyers to re-up. by that time, as ken said, the huge pile of cash will be there waiting for sabean & co to make something happen.

there is tremendous pressure for the giants to keep producing winners: the ballpark is privately financed. sure, there is much prestige that accompanies being an owner of a major league team -- that is a mighty exclusive club. but those guys want a return on their money.

[west coast orange and black]

I wonder how many other latte drinking, cell phone/ laptop toting casual fans will quit showing up IF Bonds is released?
no need to wonder, man. ain't gonna happen.

Please tell me that REAL fans will stick around once Barry is done playing...
if real fans can sit through misery at windswept and icy foggy candlestick, we can sit through anything.

What can the Giants do to get fans back to Pac Bell?
??? the fans are in the seats, man.

2005: 3,181,023 (3rd out of 16)
2004: 3,256,854 (3rd out of 16)
2003: 3,264,898 (1st out of 16)
2002: 3,253,203 (1st out of 16)
2001: 3,311,958 (1st out of 16)
2000: 3,318,800 (2nd out of 16)

plus, factor in that the yard officially holds but 41,503.
that's a maximum of 3,361,743 for 81 games.
so, the percentage capacity of the yard is just fine. also, the seats that are available for games are not the aaa seats or lower box seats - the costlier ones.

[Zito75]

I wonder how many other latte drinking, cell phone/ laptop toting casual fans will quit showing up IF Bonds is released?
no need to wonder, man. ain't gonna happen.

Please tell me that REAL fans will stick around once Barry is done playing...
if real fans can sit through misery at windswept and icy foggy candlestick, we can sit through anything.

What can the Giants do to get fans back to Pac Bell?
??? the fans are in the seats, man.

2005: 3,181,023 (3rd out of 16)
2004: 3,256,854 (3rd out of 16)
2003: 3,264,898 (1st out of 16)
2002: 3,253,203 (1st out of 16)
2001: 3,311,958 (1st out of 16)
2000: 3,318,800 (2nd out of 16)

plus, factor in that the yard officially holds but 41,503.
that's a maximum of 3,361,743 for 81 games.
so, the percentage capacity of the yard is just fine. also, the seats that are available for games are not the aaa seats or lower box seats - the costlier ones.

I never doubted you, bro. You know your stuff.

On the other side of the coin, could you imagine if this whole juicing thing came down in Oakland back in the "Bashing" days? (Probably 90% of the folks on this board knew what was going down then...) Oakland-Alameda would have been empty.

[runningshoes]

I agree with Steve Finley... the authors chose to release this at the sametime as the WBC...

The WBC should be the big news, but instead negative perception of baseball will reign supreme

If it hadn't been now it would have been the start if the season.

If it hadn't been the start of the season it would have been when he was close to the record.

When were they supposed to release it...next year?

[west coast orange and black]

Zito75: ...could you imagine if this whole juicing thing came down in Oakland back in the "Bashing" days?

that place would give quite an echo. no?

[west coast orange and black]

runningshoes is right. in the end, these guys are marketing a product.
they were on hiatus from work for 2+ years, not earning much during that time.
now is their time to cash in on their work. that's just the way it goes.
more power to 'em.

[Zito75]

runningshoes is right. in the end, these guys are marketing a product.
they were on hiatus from work for 2+ years, not earning much during that time.
now is their time to cash in on their work. that's just the way it goes.
more power to 'em.

Like we all need to buy a book to find out Barry Bonds was doping for 5 years... :grouchy

[DodgerBlue8188]

If the Giants released Bonds they would lose so much money from ticket sales. There are still a ton of people that still would like to see him play even with this news.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ right. but it is not limited to just the giants home games.
prediction: bonds, er, the giants will be the biggest road draw this season.

[Mattingly]

^^ right. but it is not limited to just the giants home games.
prediction: bonds, er, the giants will be the biggest road draw this season.
How well does he draw on the road? He certainly sold at a weekend Yankee series in June 2002.

He also showed me that it takes less than 1 second for a ball reach the deepest part of the upper deck, off Ted Lilly i the 1st inning.

[west coast orange and black]

^^ i do not have a link to provide (anyone know of a road draw link?), but the giants have either been at the top or close to being the top road draw in baseball for the past 5 or so years. that is not a coincidence. that is bonds.

[Mattingly]

^^ i do not have a link to provide (anyone know of a road draw link?), but the giants have either been at the top or close to being the top road draw in baseball for the past 5 or so years. that is not a coincidence. that is bonds.
And people talk about the Yanks being a big road draw. Barry's a one-man show.

Is it reported in the local SF media how big of a road draw that Barry is for the team? Not necessarily an exact number, but do they mention him putting more fannies into the seats?

[runningshoes]

Like we all need to buy a book to find out Barry Bonds was doping for 5 years... :grouchy

We don't but there are those that do..right Tony? :D

[west coast orange and black]

i did not have to buy it. :D

[Elvis]

^^ right. but it is not limited to just the giants home games.
prediction: bonds, er, the giants will be the biggest road draw this season.

Probably correct. Just look how many people showed up outside the Santa Maria courthouse to watch THAT. People love carnival freakshows and the Giants starring Barry Bonds certainly fit the bill.

After Bonds leaves the game there's sure to be a huge drop back to reality for Giants road attendance.

[west coast orange and black]

uh, the roadshow that is the giants is not a freakshow, man.
you seem to be are applying the current circus atmosphere to all of the most recent seasons.

the year of the 73, that was crazy. but not all the other years.

[Shoeless]

I agree with Steve Finley... the authors chose to release this at the sametime as the WBC...

The WBC should be the big news, but instead negative perception of baseball will reign supreme

Authors don't choose when to release their books. Publishers have a spring and fall season, usually, when all their books come out. Nearly all baseball books are released during spring training.

[west coast orange and black]

actually, according to publishers, the majority are released in time for holiday shopping.
the timing of the release of dark shadows is very deliberate.

[KHenry14]

And the release of Pete Rose's book was deliberate too, on Hall of Fame announcement day no less. And I don't care how much Pete deny's it, that can't be a coincidence.

KH14

[Boston Boxer]

from the article
"While the Bonds defenders wrap themselves around that one, the anti-Bonds morality squad has its own decision to make, the same decision it apparently has chosen not to make over the last several years -- namely, how best to advance the case that Bonds should be shunned as he closes in on Babe Ruth. Because so far, the case for banning Bonds has been shouted down by the rush of cash."

The last time MLB ignored long term good for short term cash we got that whole roids 'chicks dig the long ball era' and ended up defiling one of its most cherished records (Marris) and threatening another (Hank's).
Crap, I have little hope that Selig will go Judge Landis in the matter. Instead, MLB is just gonna hurt the integrity of the game.
Is anyone gonna feel good when Barry passes Hank? Anyone?

yes, I will! If this guy has done something wrong, then charge him. If you don't, then you get what you get. There is no such thing as the court of public opinion. Until Bonds is charged with wrong doing, then leave him alone...and i speak as a white person from Boston (origianally). I think the book is suspect to begin with. I only read the SI article and i had a hard time thinking it was a believable story.