New Bonds Allegations

[TonyStarks]

Thoughts?
:radio
__
Excerpts from the Book
• Bonds was motivated to take performance-enhancing drugs by the Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa chase of the single-season home run record in 1998 and he had never taken any before 1998.


• Through research, Bonds developed a deep knowledge of performance enhancers. He even talked, through third parties, to medical authorities who advised him not to use steroids.


• He began with Winstrol after the 1998 season. He also worked out extensively, sometimes spending 12 hours a day at the gym where he met the Weight Guru, who turned out to be Greg Anderson.


• He also took Deca-Durabolin. By 2001, the authors allege, he was using two designer steroids referred to as the Cream and the Clear, as well as insulin, human growth hormone, testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans) and trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle quality of cattle. That's the same year Bonds broke Mark McGwire's single-season home-run record (70) by belting 73.


• He got the substances from Anderson, his personal trainer who became a San Francisco Giants employee. Anderson got them from BALCO labs, headed by Victor Conte. Anderson's employment by the Giants irked the team's training staff, according to the excerpt. The Giants also did a background check, discovering that "World Gym was known as a place to score steroids and that Anderson himself was rumored to be a dealer. But the club decided it didn't want to alienate Bonds on this issue, either. The trainers stayed."


• Despite seeing a big change in Bonds' physical appearance, Giants officials did not challenge their star for fear of upsetting him. "The Giants, from owner Peter Magowan to manager Dusty Baker, had no interest in learning whether Bonds was using steroids, either," the excerpt contends. "Although it was illegal to use the drugs without a prescription, baseball had never banned steroids. Besides, by pursuing the issue, the Giants ran the risk of poisoning their relationship with their touchy superstar -- or, worse, of precipitating a drug scandal the year before the opening of their new ballpark, where Bonds was supposed to be the main gate attraction."


• Anderson kept meticulous records on Bonds' program, many of them on a computer. At times, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time. He also learned to inject himself.


• Bonds had a relationship with Kimberly Bell, a woman he met in the Candlestick Park parking lot in 1994 while he was married. Bonds even put a downpayment on a house for Bell in Arizona from monies he made from card-show appearances (and didn't report as income). She claims he later threatened to kill her.


• According to the excerpt, Anderson told an acquaintance who was wearing a wire in 2003 that: "The whole thing is, everything I've been doing, it's all undetectable. The stuff I have, we created it. You can't buy it anywhere else; you can't get it anywhere else. You can take [it] the day of [a drug test], pee, and it comes up clear.


"See, like Marion Jones and them -- it's the same stuff they went to the Olympics with and they test them every f------ week. So that's why I know it works, so that's why I know we're not in trouble. So that's cool."


• Bonds had immunity in grand jury testimony from everything but perjury. He claimed in testimony that he didn't know what Anderson was giving him. "At the end of [the] 2002, 2003 season, when I was going through [a bad period,] my dad died of cancer.... I was fatigued, just needed recovery you know, and this guy says, 'Try this cream, try this cream,'" he said. "And Greg came to the ballpark and said, you know, 'This will help you recover.' And he rubbed some cream on my arm ... gave me some flaxseed oil, man. It's like, 'Whatever, dude.' "

Later, Bonds said: "You know me, I'm 39 years old. I'm dealing with pain. All I want is the pain relief, you know? ... I never asked Greg," according to the excerpt. "When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.' It was in the ballpark ... in front of everybody. I mean, all the reporters, my teammates. I mean, they all saw it. I didn't hide it ... . You know, trainers come up to me and say, 'Hey, Barry, try this.' "


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2358236

[west coast orange and black]

TonyStarks: Thoughts?

Bonds was motivated to take performance-enhancing drugs by the Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa chase of the single-season home run record in 1998
pure silliness.


[Bonds] also worked out extensively, sometimes spending 12 hours a day at the gym where he met the Weight Guru, who turned out to be Greg Anderson.
incredibly, bonds and boyhood friend anderson meet at a gym.
this makes very little sense to me.


...Anderson, his personal trainer who became a San Francisco Giants employee. ... and that Anderson himself was rumored to be a dealer.

anderson became a giants employee merely to skirt a baseball-wide clubhouse rule.
the giants not acting on rumor? what's up with that?


The Giants... had no interest in learning whether Bonds was using steroids, either. Although it was illegal to use the drugs without a prescription, baseball had never banned steroids.
apparently, not one of the 30 mlb teams initiated an investigation of one of its players.
why single out the giants on this?


Bonds had a relationship with Kimberly Bell, a woman he met in the Candlestick Park parking lot in 1994 while he was married. Bonds even put a downpayment on a house for Bell in Arizona from monies he made from card-show appearances (and didn't report as income). She claims he later threatened to kill her.
the balco story originally was a federal tax case.
when bonds' name surfaced, the feds realized that they might have a really big fish on their hands. as it is, much of bell's reported statements are either highly suspect or vague.
the secretly taped recordings make it appear as though she had an agenda.


According to the excerpt, Anderson told an acquaintance who was wearing a wire in 2003 that: "The whole thing is, everything I've been doing, it's all undetectable.
the feds could not identify the tape voice, i am curious as to how fainaru-wada and williams did so.


[Bonds] claimed in testimony that he didn't know what Anderson was giving him.
Anderson served time rather than explain differently, so it seems that it is bonds' word against, uh, no one else's.

overall, the book just might turn out to be a handy, tidy single source for quotes and what-not, but not for any new material.

[ed hardiman]

How do you explain away the Balco documents?
The detailed regimen of use and laundry list of substances?
His flat out refusal to respond?
I have an open mind but you don't have to wait for the last ember to go out before you admit the house burnt down.

(AP)
Bonds was using two undetectable designer steroids, informally known as the cream and the clear, plus insulin, human growth hormone and other performance enhancers by 2001, when he hit 73 home runs for the Giants to break Mark McGwire's single-season record of 70 set in 1998.
BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative run by Victor Conte, kept track of Bonds' drug use in detail, with folders and calendars that chronicled everything from schedules and quantities to his testosterone levels. Much of that information was obtained by federal agents when they raided the lab in September 2003.
Does the occasional disinterested use of "flaxseed oil...whatever" defense still pass the smell test?
On the other hand I applaud Bonds using juice to steal the HR record from another juice fraud.
This is not just Bonds this is a league-wide scandal that makes the Black Sox look like a fraternity prank.
They took a chance they wouldn't get caught and they did.
Too bad, clean up the mess, move on.
Ban the juiceheads you catch.
Ban the former juiceheads who set meaningless juice records from the HOF.
Selig needs to get his head out of the sand.

[west coast orange and black]

i can not explain away the balco documents. i do not even know what they are.
same goes for the detailed regimen of use and list of substances.

what is puzzling to me is this:
if the documents are as claimed, why didn't the feds act upon the information? it seems to me that the whole mess would not be as messy had an adequate investigation by federal agents been made.

also, "ban the juiceheads you catch" and "ban the former juiceheads who set meaningless juice records from the hof" seem conflicting.
the former group contains players who are actually caught, the latter, those who are *known* to have used.
it simply can not be that way.

[ed hardiman]

what is puzzling to me is this:
if the documents are as claimed, why didn't the feds act upon the information? it seems to me that the whole mess would not be as messy had an adequate investigation by federal agents been made.
also, "ban the juiceheads you catch" and "ban the former juiceheads who set meaningless juice records from the hof" seem conflicting.
the former group contains players who are actually caught, the latter, those who are *known* to have used.
it simply can not be that way.
It's up to Bud Selig as the Commish to clean up baseball not the feds, Bart & Fay didn't have any problem getting all the fed docs in the Rose IRS case and drawing a quick and final conclusion.
I really think this a case of Selig hoping Bonds wasn't returning due to injuries and stricter testing.

I meant ban any current or former player from the HOF who can be shown to have used performance enhancing drugs not just Bonds. This goes to the heart of the sport.

If the achievements are the cheap currency of drugs what value should be placed on them? If McGwire "pilled" his way past Ruth what did he actually do?

Same with Bonds if this mountain of proof exists, end of story. I don't want to hear any more about how he thought it was "aspir-creme" or whatever other nonsense he says with a straight face.

If the evidence doesn't exist clear Bonds from the top down once and for all.
Its cards on the table time for baseball, its players and its records. Otherwise they're just the WWF.

"I won't believe Bonds uses steroids until I inject him myself."
As for the (AP) they wouldn't risk an enormous libel suit printing chapter and verse like that willy-nilly so if Bonds is innocent he'd sue them rather than see his legacy go up in smoke. I suspect factually that's not a viable option for him if these docs exist in such quantity and quality.

If this was Mike Schmidt I'd be aghast but I'd still cut him loose. I feel bad for the people who've admired Bonds' accomplishments, enjoyed his career and defended him believing him innocent.

Baseball is bigger than any single player except of course Ty Cobb!

[moebarguy]

Barry is running out of excuses...

[west coast orange and black]

while it is up to up to the commissioner's office to clean up baseball, the feds have been involved from the beginning. it is a federal investigation, aftter all, that started this whole balco thing.

i am not saying that it is the responsibility of our federal government to clean up baseball, i am saying that the feds were involved from day one, so why didn't they follow through, all the way, wherever the evidence took them?
maybe they did, which makes the fainaru-wada/williams story that much more, uh, interesting.

you may very well be correct about selig hoping for the bonds problem to go away. but hoping that bonds would retire/not return due to injuries limits the entire drugs in baseball problem squarely on bonds' shoulders.
that is simply ridiculous.

ridiculous because we know that when baseball announced that its initial "pre-testing" round would commence, "5-7%" tested positive and triggered the 2003-06 testing agreement. where was the outrage then? where was the outcry?
it was business as usual.

banning any current or former player from the hof if it can be shown that performance enhancing drugs were used is cool with me. as you said, it goes to the heart of the sport.

but, thus far, the only manner - for reasons both related and unrelated to baseball's rules - that a player can be shown to have used is to test positive.

placing a value on numbers and accomplishments, it seems, is no longer just for historians. it is no longer a cut-and-dry "well, this number is higher than this one, so it must has more value." actually, it has not been just recently that numbers have become tainted. it is simply that steroids and newer/better drugs have enabled players - hundreds of players - to accomplish what their predecessors, armed with just a handful of greenies, could not.

as for the news of the book: there really seems to be very little new stuff contained in it. the two reporters have made a big deal of the fact that a previously sealed document became unsealed, so maybe there is something there. probably not, though, as that was not the lead.

instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up toa believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism.

i feel that you ought not feel bad for the people who have admired bonds' play. there are many different kinds of people and many different kinds of fans. no need to take it so hard, man.

some take bonds in with the other 750 other players and figure that ok, he cheated... along with hundreds of others. maybe he just figured out a way to cheat better than most others;
lots of people do not care how bonds, specifically, accomplished what he has;
then there are those who enjoy baseball, but do not include it amongst their passions. (yeah, that's weird to us.) to them, it's ho-hum news. and some are offended that this morning's newspaper has bonds splashed across the headlines even though we are at war, people are starving and that we have an ongoing health insurance crisis.

and some of those offended are offended not just because of the pure crassness of running a baseball story as the headline, but because they, too, realize that bonds is not bigger than the game, and also that bonds is not the extent of baseball's ongoing drug problem.

[TonyStarks]

I'm all for Selig stepping in and shutting down Bonds.
Anyone see the ESPN poll regarding Bonds? Seems like the people have spoken.

-Does the news of what is in the book make you believe Bonds used steroids?
83.3% I already thought he was a user

-What would you most like to see this season?
72.5% Bonds gets fed up with the media and retires

-What do you believe about Bonds?
85.8% He knowingly used steroids

-Does Bonds belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame?
62.3% No


Bonds should walk away now.

[west coast orange and black]

bonds should walk away?
why do you believe ballplayers become ballplayers? for the fans?
that's a good one.

selig should make a move on bonds?
ironically, for selig to take a step towards bonds, to "shut him down", absent a positive drug test result, per the baseball rules in place, would be extremely unethical and probably illegal.

bonds to retire because of the media?
where have you been, man?
bonds is not ever going to tire of the media. he is actually fueled by the stories.
part of bonds being who he is is exactly because of his relationship with the media. the last thing that they want, by the way, is for bonds to leave them. what would they write about then?

lastly, i ought to have writen earlier that there are no new allegations rather, repeated ones.

[ed hardiman]

...entire drugs in baseball problem squarely on bonds' shoulders...that is simply ridiculous
It doesn't that's what's so outrageous.
They hope a few big fish like a Palmerio & Bonds lightning rod the problem and safely discharge the effects of steroids into the ground.
...it is simply that steroids and newer/better drugs have enabled players - hundreds of players - to accomplish what their predecessors, armed with just a handful of greenies, could not.
Yes and I think they should all be excised from the game and the record books. Not only that Selig knows amphetimine abuse dwarfs steroid abuse.
...as for the news of the book: there really seems to be very little new stuff contained in it. the two reporters have made a big deal of the fact that a previously sealed document became unsealed, so maybe there is something there. probably not, though, as that was not the lead.
Characterizing unsealed admitted trial exhibits as old stuff?
Perhaps we interpret it differently but enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen seems to be brand new.
Maybe the local media in SF has been ahead of the curve because no such news has been reported previously in regards to Bonds out here.
Its important to say trial by media allegation is unfair but if documents are piling up unrefuted except for a "who cares" by Bonds then any good faith reasonable doubt extended to him may quickly evaporate because seeing is believing.
...instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up toa believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism.
Methodology may be suspect in regards to the Oprah-ization of news but that's the same fishbowl Bonds swims in to earn millions.
He wants it both ways fame fueled by press attention but only if it massages his ego.
It doesn't work that way.
...some take bonds in with the other 750 other players and figure that ok, he cheated... along with hundreds of others. maybe he just figured out a way to cheat better than most others;
I think given the very inevitable, identifiable deterioration of chronic steroid abusers, like premature death, virulent cancers, connective tissue injuries, etc. you'll be able to tell pretty quickly who took steroids and who didn't even among those who retired ahead of the testing curve.
The HOF could easily adopt rules to extend the waiting period for the lump of players between 1990-2005 to address that issue.
Bud Selig under the "good of the game" clause has every right to zots Bonds out of baseball and the HOF and if those trial docs exist and have reached his office (as I suspect they have), Bonds will have little recourse to appeal for redress.
...lots of people do not care how bonds, specifically, accomplished what he has;
Lots of people are indifferent to many things but the people who support baseball and the HOF by and large do care and given the competition baseball faces for the sports dollar can they afford to alienate a shrinking base or risk speeding the process through a devaluing of the very essence of the sport's appeal?
...bonds is not bigger than the game, and also that bonds is not the extent of baseball's ongoing drug problem.
No, it's unfair to characterize the baseball drug swamp as such.
Bonds without the stench of PED's would've assumed the loftiest of positions among a pantheon of greats whose path he followed.
Instead in 1998 at 33 he's Frank Robinson with a chemistry set and a lack of scruples feeling neglected.
Still HOF but not Say Hey, Hammerin, or the Babe's equal.

[TonyStarks]

Hardiman....

Bravo on your post.



WC, I'm wondering are you 100% behind Bonds?
Are you telling me that there isn't a bit of doubt with you about Bonds & 'Roids?

[KCGHOST]

Some people just refuse to wake up and smell the coffee. If you want to defend Bonds don't make a fool of yourself by giving "reasons". Just say "I don't care what he did, he's the greatest to me". I'd rather see blind loyalty than stupidity.

As for Selig cleaning up baseball you guys have to be kidding. Everything is subject to the Union's approval and Fehr & Orza have a different agenda. Any move Selig makes unilaterally that even remotely conflicts with theCBA will be fought tooth & nail regardless of merit.

[KHenry14]

Speaking for myself, it's not that I don't think Barry didn't use. What I choose to argue is that not all of his improvement is solely due to PED's. It's a known fact that Barry changed his game from 93 to 98, and the years that followed '98 may be chemically altered, but they also reflect a huge change in his swing and his training. So to argue that his numbers are entirely due to PED's isn't fair to Barry.

Frankly, I don't know any Giants fans who state unequivically that Barry never used.

KH14

[johnny]

Speaking for myself, it's not that I don't think Barry didn't use. What I choose to argue is that not all of his improvement is solely due to PED's. It's a known fact that Barry changed his game from 93 to 98, and the years that followed '98 may be chemically altered, but they also reflect a huge change in his swing and his training. So to argue that his numbers are entirely due to PED's isn't fair to Barry.

Frankly, I don't know any Giants fans who state unequivically that Barry never used.

KH14

That is an interesting argumentation style you got there.
Who is arguing that his numbers are 'entirely due' to PEDs?
AND
The other part about 'who state unequivically' is another attempt at the same thing.

[johnny]

Some people just refuse to wake up and smell the coffee. If you want to defend Bonds don't make a fool of yourself by giving "reasons". Just say "I don't care what he did, he's the greatest to me". I'd rather see blind loyalty than stupidity.

As for Selig cleaning up baseball you guys have to be kidding. Everything is subject to the Union's approval and Fehr & Orza have a different agenda. Any move Selig makes unilaterally that even remotely conflicts with theCBA will be fought tooth & nail regardless of merit.

You are so spot on with my thoughts vis a vi Selig although I do hope that he will do something substantive to avoid another verball arse-whuppin like he took at the 05 congressional hearings.
For the Bonds defenders if you get your way ask yourself when Barry passes Hank, how are you going to feel?

[TonyStarks]

Some people just refuse to wake up and smell the coffee. If you want to defend Bonds don't make a fool of yourself by giving "reasons". Just say "I don't care what he did, he's the greatest to me". I'd rather see blind loyalty than stupidity.

As for Selig cleaning up baseball you guys have to be kidding. Everything is subject to the Union's approval and Fehr & Orza have a different agenda. Any move Selig makes unilaterally that even remotely conflicts with theCBA will be fought tooth & nail regardless of merit.

KC...if Selig can act by involving Congress in the matter.
As much as I would hate to do that, it's for the intregrity or whats left of it.

The same way Selig threw Fehr under the bus with the Steriods testing debacle and extending the Suspension. In the end Selig had Check-Mated Fehr and the Union couldn't argue.

[west coast orange and black]

Starks: WC, I'm wondering are you 100% behind Bonds?

to ask means that you have not been paying attention, or that you have misinterpreted my posts.

[west coast orange and black]

ghost, there is no need to refer to anyone here at bb-f a fool.

it seems to me that you declare everyone who is not calling for bonds to:
walk away from the game;
be banned;
be suspended for part of the regualr season;
become inelligible for the hall -- are bonds defenders.

the fact of the matter is that mlb has a work agreement in place.
selig's hands are tied.
baseball can not make a move on a player - any player - who is signed under the player's agreement. to do so would simply be inviting a player's strike.

oh, c'mon, the players would strike over bonds?

bonds is not the issue.
remove the name of the particular individual. that is how law and rules are applied. that is the nature of unions.

[west coast orange and black]

...entire drugs in baseball problem squarely on bonds' shoulders...that is simply ridiculous
It doesn't that's what's so outrageous.
They hope a few big fish like a Palmerio & Bonds lightning rod the problem and safely discharge the effects of steroids into the ground.
who is "they"?

...it is simply that steroids and newer/better drugs have enabled players - hundreds of players - to accomplish what their predecessors, armed with just a handful of greenies, could not.
Yes and I think they should all be excised from the game and the record books. Not only that Selig knows amphetimine abuse dwarfs steroid abuse.
no, you don't.
i can say this because to clear the names of players who have used illegal drugs from the annals of the hall would create quite an echo chamber.
some of the biggest names in baseball used illeagal drugs for extended lengths of time.

...as for the news of the book: there really seems to be very little new stuff contained in it. the two reporters have made a big deal of the fact that a previously sealed document became unsealed, so maybe there is something there. probably not, though, as that was not the lead.
Characterizing unsealed admitted trial exhibits as old stuff?
Perhaps we interpret it differently but enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen seems to be brand new.
Maybe the local media in SF has been ahead of the curve because no such news has been reported previously in regards to Bonds out here.
Its important to say trial by media allegation is unfair but if documents are piling up unrefuted except for a "who cares" by Bonds then any good faith reasonable doubt extended to him may quickly evaporate because seeing is believing.
i said "seems to be very little new stuff".
the "enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen" is all repeated information. possibly you missed it. here at ground zero in the san francisco bay area, nearly all 200+ articles written by fainaru-wada and williams have been printed in the local paper.
i have read 'em all.
also, i have nearly 3/4 of the book read, and thus far, it has been re-hash.

...instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up to a believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism.
Methodology may be suspect in regards to the Oprah-ization of news but that's the same fishbowl Bonds swims in to earn millions.
He wants it both ways fame fueled by press attention but only if it massages his ego.
It doesn't work that way.
bonds in a fishbowl has absolutely nothing to do with the departure of the reporters from journalism. they are two separate issues entirely.
the reporters purport to know the *why* of the story, yet did not speak with bonds. that is irresponsible journalism. that is swinging over to sensationalism.

...some take bonds in with the other 750 other players and figure that ok, he cheated... along with hundreds of others. maybe he just figured out a way to cheat better than most others;
I think given the very inevitable, identifiable deterioration of chronic steroid abusers, like premature death, virulent cancers, connective tissue injuries, etc. you'll be able to tell pretty quickly who took steroids and who didn't even among those who retired ahead of the testing curve.
The HOF could easily adopt rules to extend the waiting period for the lump of players between 1990-2005 to address that issue.
Bud Selig under the "good of the game" clause has every right to zots Bonds out of baseball and the HOF and if those trial docs exist and have reached his office (as I suspect they have), Bonds will have little recourse to appeal for redress.
why the corraling of users and chronic users? there's no "a little bit pregnant" on this issue. either someone used, or did not.

i believe that the hall will not enact new guidelines that includes an extended waiting period. they do not want to be viewed as hypocritical, which is exactly what would occur.

the "good of the game" clause can not be used to punish bonds. the clause is reserved for situations that the rules of baseball does not address. but the rules of baseball clearly do address the current situation: onlt a positive drug test result can dictate action taken against a player.

...lots of people do not care how bonds, specifically, accomplished what he has;
Lots of people are indifferent to many things but the people who support baseball and the HOF by and large do care and given the competition baseball faces for the sports dollar can they afford to alienate a shrinking base or risk speeding the process through a devaluing of the very essence of the sport's appeal?
i can go along with this, mostly.

...bonds is not bigger than the game, and also that bonds is not the extent of baseball's ongoing drug problem.
No, it's unfair to characterize the baseball drug swamp as such.
Bonds without the stench of PED's would've assumed the loftiest of positions among a pantheon of greats whose path he followed.
Instead in 1998 at 33 he's Frank Robinson with a chemistry set and a lack of scruples feeling neglected.
Still HOF but not Say Hey, Hammerin, or the Babe's equal.
bonds ineviatably gets compared to baseball's greats, and the forgone conclusion is that bonds, while being hof material, pales in comparison.
everyone is entitled to an opinion. but what is fact, not an opinion, is that some of those named are players who used illegal drugs.

this is why i fully expect to read and hear about players former and current rally 'round bonds. the situation is: did he use? yeah. but so did over a thousand players. the major leaguers know what's up. and they have all along.

[runningshoes]

I can't read your grey typeface, Tony. It's too hard on my eyes.

[west coast orange and black]

ok, or darker? :o

[ed hardiman]

who is "they"?
Selig, his cronies, & the owners.
...no, you don't.
i can say this because to clear the names of players who have used illegal drugs from the annals of the hall would create quite an echo chamber.some of the biggest names in baseball used illeagal drugs for extended lengths of time.The number of PED abusers in the HOF is nil.
I hold your remarks about guilt to the same standard I provide Bonds.
Please show me documentary or medical proof the HOF is thusly infested.
If your assertion is solely in regards to amphetamines you're probably closer to correct but does anyone conflate that issue with PED's?
...i said "seems to be very little new stuff". the "enumeration of specific steroids, amounts, duration and involvement in the regimen" is all repeated information. possibly you missed it. here at ground zero in the san francisco bay area, nearly all 200+ articles written by fainaru-wada and williams have been printed in the local paper.i have read 'em all.also, i have nearly 3/4 of the book read, and thus far, it has been re-hash...instead, it is a compilation of expert witnesses, truthful testimony, anonymous sources, a scorned woman who sems to have an agenda, and anecdotal evidence. it may very well add up to a believeable story. a truthful one. but the two reporters, who took leave from work for more than two years to research and compile, have done themselves a huge disservice by taking the oprah route and offered their opinion as to why bonds used, instead of merely sticking to pure journalism. I rely on your judgement in that regard as I live 3000 miles away where it hasn't been beaten like a dead horse.
Of course I've only read the SI article and it seems a straight forward factual recounting and while it may be pure conjecture as to why Bonds used steroids I got the impression the author's were recounting remarks made to Bell by Bonds.
Is she the woman scorned? Maybe. But I think they'd be foolish if she was a shrill harpy out to get Bonds at all costs to depend on her alone.
I'd get a better sense of their bias as writers if they quoted all the tapes she made of him making threats then you could say it was a pure hatchet job.
I care only to know what he did that may've altered what happened on the field.
I do however have a different position on criminal trial docs.
They would be irrefutable and not based on allegations, suppositions or hearsay.
...why the corraling of users and chronic users? there's no "a little bit pregnant" on this issue. either someone used, or did not. Selfishly in the pursuit of glory or merely larger contracts these players took a big fat dump on our national pastime which admittedly is not perfect but it has held certain truths, like records which mean something in the achievement, and something in the breaking.
Would Ripken be all that admired if it turned out he'd secretly shot himself up with a cocktail of drugs and PED's the last seven years of his career that allowed him to break Gehrig's record without which he simply couldn't have?
...i believe that the hall will not enact new guidelines that includes an extended waiting period. they do not want to be viewed as hypocritical, which is exactly what would occur. We differ on this point where I believe the Lords of Baseball who ultimately control the game and the HOF will do anything to protect their long term investment. Being hypocritical is the coin of the realm for them.
...the "good of the game" clause can not be used to punish bonds. the clause is reserved for situations that the rules of baseball does not address. but the rules of baseball clearly do address the current situation: onlt a positive drug test result can dictate action taken against a player.Not so that agreement doesn't excuse lying to the Commissioner in the ordinary exercise of his authority to regulate behavior detrimental to the game and I would suggest the eventuality and process I propose has already started:
...in a meeting held in April of 2004, The Chicago Tribune, citing a "highly placed baseball source," said Selig offered Bonds leniency from any baseball punishment if he used any illicit performance-enhancing substance and came clean about it.
Selig told Bonds the consequences would be "much worse" if he professed innocence and later was revealed as a steroid user.
It appears they will be talking again.
Since that meeting, baseball security officials have been "monitoring" the Bonds case, though top executives strongly denied they had begun a formal investigation when the New York Daily News reported that one was under way.
The basis of such a penalty would be Bonds lying in that meeting being detrimental to Selig's fundamental excercise of responsibility and authority over baseball as Commissioner not failing a steroid test.
I still maintain if no such proof exists in any verifiable form Selig should man up and exonerate him.
bonds ineviatably gets compared to baseball's greats, and the forgone conclusion is that bonds, while being hof material, pales in comparison. everyone is entitled to an opinion. but what is fact, not an opinion, is that some of those named are players who used illegal drugs.
Name one.
I would ask you provide actual documents like those neccessary to impeach Bonds.
You can't just fling mud and hope it sticks, I haven't.
If Bonds manned up admitting guilt at any point prior to now that he took PED's in a misguided attempt to keep pace with other players mysteriously hitting more HR's in the last nickel of their careers I would've said he's still HOF.
Because nobody's perfect.
But now the only reason he'd do it is to keep the record of beating 3 players I defy anyone to characterize as addicted to anything.
Anyone who would is an idiot.
They are the platinum standard of excellence in baseball.
Anyone who tries to cheat their way past them deserves absolute and total exile if caught.
What will happen when people realize Bonds cheated his way past his own Godfather, Willie Mays?
If Bonds fits that category, good riddance.
I only expect him to get what he's earned either way.
No more and certainly no less.
Innocent, great.
Guilty, gone.
Some say he should walk right now before he does pass Ruth and Aaron.
If he's guilty, that single greatest act of contrition would restore him in my eyes to HOF worthy and in the eyes of the fans who do care about the game.
Again forgiveness asked for with true contrition is an unimpeachable sign of character.
I believe he's far too stubbornly selfish, stupid & greedy to do that even if he did turn out to be guilty as hell.
...this is why i fully expect to read and hear about players former and current rally 'round bonds. the situation is: did he use? yeah. but so did over a thousand players. the major leaguers know what's up. and they have all along.
I don't think Bonds has endeared himself to enough players to hold much of a rally.
That being said Cobb was a total 24k gold plated S.O.B. til the day he died, and I don't care.
So there's a place for S.O.B.'s in the HOF.
It's looking Dick Nixon grim though for Mr.Bonds...

[runningshoes]

ok, or darker? :o

That's good..I can see that no problem.

God....I hate getting old. :D

[west coast orange and black]

who is "they"?
Selig, his cronies, & the owners.
oh, no doubt that most in baseball wishes that this thing just went away. 'cept, the problem is a deeply-rooted one that has been around for decades.


no, you don't don't.
The number of PED abusers in the HOF is nil.
Please show me documentary or medical proof the HOF is thusly infested.
If your assertion is solely in regards to amphetamines you're probably closer to correct but does anyone conflate that issue with PED's?
1. the number is not nil. it is significant.
2. providing "documentary or medical proof" would be more difficult to provide than exhuming a corpse. c'mon. we're talkin' about what players consumed. sophistication of medical record-keeping is relatively recent only.


...I've only read the SI article and it seems a straight forward factual recounting and while it may be pure conjecture as to why Bonds used steroids I got the impression the author's were recounting remarks made to Bell by Bonds.
what does it tell you that the feds all but dismissed bell's remarks?


I do however have a different position on criminal trial docs.
They would be irrefutable and not based on allegations, suppositions or hearsay.
criminal trial docs do carry weight, yes. but sworn testimony can be impeached no matter the venue. also, none of the documents used by the two reporters are criminal trial documents.


...why the corraling of users and chronic users? there's no "a little bit pregnant" on this issue. either someone used, or did not.
Selfishly in the pursuit of glory or merely larger contracts...
agreed.


Would Ripken be all that admired...?
would he:
"be all that admired?" no.
have his records expunged? no.
be banned from the hall? no.

...i believe that the hall will not enact new guidelines...
We differ on this point...
part of protecting their investment is not to allow news that would tarnish the names of those already enshrined to betarnished.
a full, complete investigation of drugs in baseball would do just that.
we, the fans would not be able to handle it.


bonds ineviatably gets compared to baseball's greats, and the forgone conclusion is that bonds, while being hof material, pales in comparison. everyone is entitled to an opinion. but what is fact, not an opinion, is that some of those named are players who used illegal drugs.
Name one.
I would ask you provide actual documents like those neccessary to impeach Bonds.
You can't just fling mud and hope it sticks, I haven't.
what's done is done.
no way will i join the cavalcade and start sniping at retired players by name. look at what some are already doing tomike schmidt.

don't believe me if you care not to. that's cool.
but i am extremely confidant that i stand on firm ground on this issue.
i am going on what many players have confided. 6 hofers included.


Anyone who tries to cheat their way past them deserves absolute and total exile if caught.
i do not agreed. the player work agreement controls the matter.


What will happen when people realize Bonds cheated his way past his own Godfather, Willie Mays?
mays ended with 660. bonds has 708.
ask people and they will tell you.


...this is why i fully expect to read and hear about players former and current rally 'round bonds. the situation is: did he use? yeah. but so did over a thousand players. the major leaguers know what's up. and they have all along.
I don't think Bonds has endeared himself to enough players to hold much of a rally.
it is not bonds around whom they would be rallying. it is the abstract idea. that is the strength of the union. as goes one, so go them all.
remove bonds from the argument. it takes some doing, but go ahead. now, absent an assult on the record books and encroaching hallowed ground, what would be the reason to expel the player? none.

the rules are not set up for the particular circumstances of one individula player. i understand the upsetting and uncomfortable and irritating and awful news, but baseball's rules are in place for reasons.

[ed hardiman]

who is "they"?
oh, no doubt that most in baseball wishes that this thing just went away. 'cept, the problem is a deeply-rooted one that has been around for decades.
1. the number is not nil. it is significant.
2. providing "documentary or medical proof" would be more difficult to provide than exhuming a corpse. c'mon.we're talkin' about what players consumed. sophistication of medical record-keeping is relatively recent only.
Your actual standard of proof is now mere assertion or innuendo?
Who else do you believe used PED's in the HOF?
Lou Gehrig? Ted Williams? Willie Mays?
Hospital charts, ongoing medical treatment records, progress reports, are not a recent innovation.
what does it tell you that the feds all but dismissed bell's remarks? I don't give any weight to her statements just they simply provided the basis for the author's conclusion Bonds started using steroids out of jealousy over the attention McGwire got chemically breaking the record.
...criminal trial docs do carry weight, yes. but sworn testimony can be impeached no matter the venue. also, none of the documents used by the two reporters are criminal trial documents. The direct quotes used by the authors indicate they are asked and answered sworn grand jury testimony given directly by Bonds in a criminal matter.
Additionally the IRS Memorandum while redacted is available on the net.
I can post links to it, the SI article in its entirety and the direct page quoting the grand jury testimony should you require it but I assume you are well conversant with it from your posts.
...part of protecting their investment is not to allow news that would tarnish the names of those already enshrined to be tarnished.a full, complete investigation of drugs in baseball would do just that. we, the fans would not be able to handle it. You've not provided one iota of evidence to back up your extraordinary claim the HOF is riddled with PED users.
Consequently, as much as I'd like to, I can't give it any weight.
Second the milk is spilt, and the cat out of the bag as far as fans are concerned.
Fans will just have to put their big girl panties on and deal with it.
It's not like suddenly discovering Joe DiMaggio was a serial rapist ex-nazi spy who sold nuclear secrets to Russia before he assassinated JFK in Dallas to get even for JFK and Bobby killing Marylin Monroe in '62.
what's done is done.no way will i join the cavalcade and start sniping at retired players by name. look at what some are already doing to mike schmidt. What are you talking about?
Schmidt, the best 3rd sacker who ever played, has never been accused of anything remotely associated with taking this crap.
Schmidt's opinion is diametrically opposed to mine on steroid use in the 1990's:
"Let me go out on a limb and say that if I had played during that era I would have taken steroids... We all have these things we deal with in life, and I'm surely not going to sit here and say to you guys, 'I wouldn't have done that. don't believe me if you care not to. that's cool.but i am extremely confidant that i stand on firm ground on this issue.i am going on what many players have confided. 6 hofers included. You're entitled to your opinion which I respect, I hope I don't seem to be hacking on you with my inability to understand your reluctance to simply provide a verifiable example of what you clearly believe true.
mays ended with 660. bonds has 708. ask people and they will tell you.Really? Bonds hit 660 prior to his alleged steroid abuse beginning in 1998?
I thought it was in 2004...
I better get my calendar fixed.
...it is not bonds around whom they would be rallying. it is the abstract idea. that is the strength of the union. as goes one, so go them all. Pardon me for laughing at the notion a sackful of millionaire ballplayers are a real union.
...remove bonds from the argument. it takes some doing, but go ahead. now, absent an assult on the record books and encroaching hallowed ground, what would be the reason to expel the player? none.the rules are not set up for the particular circumstances of one individula player. i understand the upsetting and uncomfortable and irritating and awful news, but baseball's rules are in place for reasons. Forget Bonds. The reason for expulsion is any player who knowingly obstructs the Baseball Commissioner in the performance of his duty to uphold the best interests of the game does not deserve a place in its record books or HOF.
Additionally the Commissioner clearly indicated drastic consequences should a player be caught lying in such an inquiry.
Selig has every authority to demand an answer from the player not designed to materially alter the decision he makes in regards to Baseball's best interest over something like steroid tainted records.
That player could simply refuse to answer rather than lie.
In which case Selig should've acted then.
Nevertheless you insist the player's agreement obviates any transgression by a single player no matter how egregious or detrimental to the survival of the game.
How do you possibly conflate the two issues?
These players black marketeered a desired outcome with no regard for the consequences to other players like Albert Pujols who Bonds may have deked out of an MVP or record holders like Maris or Aaron.
Baseball as an institution has 3 distinct fully vested parties:
Owners, players and fans.
Lacking any one of the three there would be no MLB.
It does not solely belong to players and their short term labor agreement.
Your argument the player's labor agreement trumps all is unconvincing and arbitrary.
Nor is the sport called Bondsball.
Where's your fan's sense of outrage chemically stripping Hammerin' Hank Aaron of his rightfully earned distinction for hitting the most boxes of waffles in a Horatio Algier career, beginning in the segregated Negro Leagues and ending at the pinnacle of MLB in the HOF, wouldn't be the worst slap-in-the-face injustice baseball finally perpetrated on him?

"Any way you look at it, it's wrong..."
Hammerin' Hank Aaron on steroid abuse