Is it worth it? (Puckett death)

[ballparks]

Am I the only one in this forum who wonders if there was a link to anabolic steroids in Kirby's past? Quite irregular for someone that young to get acute glaucoma and then die from a stroke 10 years later.

I'm not in any way presuming guilt, but just wondering if anyone else was thinking the same? I certainly hope that this is not the case, but if it were, wouldn't it be worthwhile to use this as a topic of education for our youth?

Again, I'm not assuming ANYTHING and am quite shocked by Kirby's passing. I just wonder if it's worth bringing up the topic.

[rockin500]

no. this is a lesson that you have to keep yourself in shape. no more no less.

[Kaliber]

I did find it odd at how Kirby went downhill so fast, but I dont think it had anything to do with steroids or anything like that.

[BasEbaLlKnoItAll]

I DOUBT it was steroid related.

It is no secret that he hasnt taken great care of himself the last few years. Thats what it was.

[DoubleX]

Am I the only one in this forum who wonders if there was a link to anabolic steroids in Kirby's past? Quite irregular for someone that young to get acute glaucoma and then die from a stroke 10 years later.

I'm not in any way presuming guilt, but just wondering if anyone else was thinking the same? I certainly hope that this is not the case, but if it were, wouldn't it be worthwhile to use this as a topic of education for our youth?

Again, I'm not assuming ANYTHING and am quite shocked by Kirby's passing. I just wonder if it's worth bringing up the topic.

I actually was thinking the same thing yesterday for the same reasons you stated (acute glaucoma, massive stroke at a young age, in addition to the production he got out of his fairly small frame), but decided now was not the time to bring this subject up. The sad thing about baseball now is that it's difficult, for me at least, to give players the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, I do believe that Kirby's death was very much related to his current physical condition, with some reports having him in excess of 400 lbs.

Anyway, I still don't think now is a good time for this conversation. I am very saddened by Kirby's death as he was a symbol for the greatness of the game as I was growing up; so perhaps we can revisit this discussion sometime down the road?

[rockin500]

my question, why bring it up at all? i dont know how you can logically even think of that?

his acute glaucoma was from getting drilled in the head. and he was always hefty plus he had several family members die before the age of 50. it is what it looks like. dont read more into what isnt there.

[ballparks]

I actually was thinking the same thing yesterday for the same reasons you stated (acute glaucoma, massive stroke at a young age, in addition to the production he got out of his fairly small frame), but decided now was not the time to bring this subject up. The sad thing about baseball now is that it's difficult, for me at least, to give players the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, I do believe that Kirby's death was very much related to his current physical condition, with some reports having him in excess of 400 lbs.

Anyway, I still don't think now is a good time for this conversation. I am very saddened by Kirby's death as he was a symbol for the greatness of the game as I was growing up; so perhaps we can revisit this discussion sometime down the road?

I was debating if bringing this up would be akin to 'dancing on a man's grave', and certainly don't want to offer any disrespect to any individual. I just wonder if there's anything to be gained by this discussion. If the mod feels it best to delay this debate, I'll defer to their expertise.

I appreciate the comment XX.

[VTSoxFan]

I thought glaucoma was almost always related to diabetes.

I don't know how I came to the idea that his glaucoma was discovered while he was undergoing treatment for the fractures sustained when he was beaned. That's probably not the case, but somehow or other I had that notion.

[rockin500]

I thought glaucoma was almost always related to diabetes.

I don't know how I came to the idea that his glaucoma was discovered while he was undergoing treatment for the fractures sustained when he was beaned. That's probably not the case, but somehow or other I had that notion.
nope. diabetes can cause it, but anyone with increased eye pressure is at risk. african americans are much higher at risk for it and usually suffer from it earlier than caucasions.

Secondary glaucoma develops after trauma to the eye that affects the drainage system. Injury, infection, inflammation, tumor or an enlarged cataract can precipitate secondary glaucoma

it also runs in families.

[ElHalo]

People die. That's kind of what we're here for. Whether you do steroids or not.

[johnny]

people are hesitant to bring it up because now is clearly not the right time.

let his family, his friends, and his fans grieve.

rest assured, there is time enough to discuss 'it' later.

[Play@theplate]

I agree..

Not now, later..

Like they did for Cammi

[KCGHOST]

People die. It happens everyday.

[johnny]

People die. It happens everyday.
i am just referencing the 'it' issue. it should be clear enough when the medical report comes back.

[Mattingly]

Unless someone is a very experienced medical doctor or other highly seasoned medical professional who's studied deaths involving athletes or other steroid users, I'm not sure how one can state whether this would be unusual or not.

For example, does anyone konw what were the causes of death of the men in Kirby's family? If your father had high blood pressure and ate salty and/or fatty foods, would it be unusual that he would also die at an earlier age?

Many things aren't known here, and until there's even an autopsy (given that he's not of a religion which prohibits this), then I won't presume the lesser of Kirby, nor will I be trying to dig up dirt on him.

If a man gave his heart, his soul to baseball, when his life is taken away, at least let him rest peacefully.

[rockin500]

Unless someone is a very experienced medical doctor or other highly seasoned medical professional who's studied deaths involving athletes or other steroid users, I'm not sure how one can state whether this would be unusual or not.

For example, does anyone konw what were the causes of death of the men in Kirby's family? If your father had high blood pressure and ate salty and/or fatty foods, would it be unusual that he would also die at an earlier age?

Many things aren't known here, and until there's even an autopsy (given that he's not of a religion which prohibits this), then I won't presume the lesser of Kirby, nor will I be trying to dig up dirt on him.

If a man gave his heart, his soul to baseball, when his life is taken away, at least let him rest peacefully.
causes of death from other family members is quite well known (or should be to anyone who actually followed puckett). heart disease before the age of 50. He had stated even back when he was in his 30's that he didnt expect to live until age 50.

[Mattingly]

causes of death from other family members is quite well known (or should be to anyone who actually followed puckett). heart disease before the age of 50. He had stated even back when he was in his 30's that he didnt expect to live until age 50.
Thanks for the info. That's the thing, I never followed him much. I just knew that he'd blown up to a very heavy weight. 5'8" and 300 lbs is one thing, but nearing 400?

I remember seeing some top-tier powerlifter who was 5'7", 360, Anthony Clark (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/criticalbench5.htm). However, he was a powerlifting legend, having squatted over 1,000 lbs, benched 733 (when I'd followed the sport) and deadlifted around 800 lbs. That's some awesome weight.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/criticalbench5.jpg

Were there any mention of any kind of depression over his impending doom? That statement that he didn't expect to live to be 50 seemed very sad. Perhaps that may somehow be related to why he'd let himself go physically.

Either case, it's very unfortunate.

[rockin500]

Thanks for the info. That's the thing, I never followed him much. I just knew that he'd blown up to a very heavy weight. 5'8" and 300 lbs is one thing, but nearing 400?

I remember seeing some top-tier powerlifter who was 5'7", 360, Anthony Clark (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/criticalbench5.htm). However, he was a powerlifting legend, having squatted over 1,000 lbs, benched 733 (when I'd followed the sport) and deadlifted around 800 lbs. That's some awesome weight.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/criticalbench5.jpg

Were there any mention of any kind of depression over his impending doom? That statement that he didn't expect to live to be 50 seemed very sad. Perhaps that may somehow be related to why he'd let himself go physically.

Either case, it's very unfortunate.
it was indeed part of the reason he let himself go. especially after the legal troubles he became even more bitter than ever. he was depressed at one point but it seemed like he was turning his life around when he was struck down. his weight was a problem near the end of his career, but after it ended, he seemed to stop caring about maintaining any kind of shape. even in his best shape, he wasnt in excellent shape, certainly not by today's players standards.

[Mattingly]

it was indeed part of the reason he let himself go. especially after the legal troubles he became even more bitter than ever. he was depressed at one point but it seemed like he was turning his life around when he was struck down. his weight was a problem near the end of his career, but after it ended, he seemed to stop caring about maintaining any kind of shape. even in his best shape, he wasnt in excellent shape, certainly not by today's players standards.
I kind of figured that depression might have been an issue. I didn't want to ask, but figured that may have been a reason. Something similar (weight gain) happened to boxer Buster Douglas after he'd defeated Mike Tyson by KO in a surprising victory in Japan (blew up close to 400 lbs at about 6'2" or so).

From what I remember about powerlifters, even if they'd competed in the 270-300 lbs area, once they stopped lifting, they'd have to lose lots of their bulk or it would quickly turn to fat. The only reason they could carry that girth was because they were hitting the heavy iron during practice and competition, as well as travelling.

In baseball, especially the outfield, which can be said to have more aerobic benefits than weightlifting, a player may also need to lose lots of weight. Had he kept his roly-poly figure or reduced it to 195 lbs or so, that might've been fine. Any work done with a trainer might've worked.

I'm no doctor, but there's only so much strain that a heart and knees can absorb. I'm not sure what his diet and exercise regimen consisted of, but if he could've seen it within himself to fight off the trend in his family of earth deaths amongst the men, I think we'd all be a bit happier right now.

[ballparks]

Unless someone is a very experienced medical doctor or other highly seasoned medical professional who's studied deaths involving athletes or other steroid users, I'm not sure how one can state whether this would be unusual or not.


Matt- I actually do qualify as that, but given what some of the other posters said, let's wait until the dust settles.

My initial aim was to see if this was something that others thought as well. Either way, the whole situation stinks. 45 year old guy dead from significant health problems. Lyle Alzado - dead. Ken Caminiti - dead. Jason Giambi - testicular cancer. John Kruk - same. Lance Armstrong - no comment.

I am sad that our society is so blinded to stardom that we accept these people's self-harm for our own twisted enjoyment and self-fulfillment. We're all like alcoholics who don't want to believe that there's any problem.

My aim is not to vilify Kirby Puckett, but to comment on our own society's acceptance of this culture.

I'm happy dropping this thread until things quite down and if one of the mods wants to eliminate it out of respect for the feelings of other BBF members, I won't stand in their way.

[Metal Ed]

Obesity and family history have a LOT more proof as risk factors for stroke than steroids do. There's theoretical reasons to believe that steroids might raise the risk of cardiovascular disease, but you won't find anything on this subject that approaches the reams of scientific evidence linking obesity and heredity to stroke. And it's not "highly irregular" for such a "young man" to die of stroke - I know of two men, relatives of close friends, who died in their late 40's/early 50's, one from stroke and the other from heart disease. One was a 50 year old fitness freak with a six pack, who hadn't smoked a cigarette in his life, and hadn't eaten meat for 30 years. Died of a massive heart attack at age 50. The other was in his late forties, and while not in great shape, was nowhere near as obese as Puckett.

As others have said, Puckett was over 300 lbs at 5'8", and both of his parents died before age 50. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Not to mention the fact that Puckett's body, even in his prime, was not exactly the type of body that screams "steroids!"

And the guy who suggested that the glaucoma arouses suspiscions of steroid use is just plain ignorant. What, is everything caused by steroids now? Glaucoma isn't even one of the suspected side effects of steroids.

Come on now.

[ballparks]

Obesity and family history have a LOT more proof as risk factors for stroke than steroids do. There's theoretical reasons to believe that steroids might raise the risk of cardiovascular disease, but you won't find anything on this subject that approaches the reams of scientific evidence linking obesity and heredity to stroke. And it's not "highly irregular" for such a "young man" to die of stroke - I know of two men, relatives of close friends, who died in their late 40's/early 50's, one from stroke and the other from heart disease. One was a 50 year old fitness freak with a six pack, who hadn't smoked a cigarette in his life, and hadn't eaten meat for 30 years. Died of a massive heart attack at age 50. The other was in his late forties, and while not in great shape, was nowhere near as obese as Puckett.

As others have said, Puckett was over 300 lbs at 5'8", and both of his parents died before age 50. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Not to mention the fact that Puckett's body, even in his prime, was not exactly the type of body that screams "steroids!"

And the guy who suggested that the glaucoma arouses suspiscions of steroid use is just plain ignorant. What, is everything caused by steroids now? Glaucoma isn't even one of the suspected side effects of steroids.

Come on now.

Everybody's a doctor, aren't they.

In fact, acute-angle closure glaucoma is resultant from increased intra-ocular pressure (too much pressure in the eye). This is because of a mismatch between eye fluid inflow and outflow. A cause of this impediment of outflow is vascular comprimise (blood vessels not working properly). Hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol) is a common cause of 'blood flow problems' because of plaque (gunk) deposits in the vessels. The etiology (cause) of this can have a high familial and genetic component, but a mismatch between 'good' and 'bad' cholesterol with elevation of the levels of bad cholesterol is a known (albeit reverable upon cessation) side effect of anabolic steroid use.

The bottom line is that sure, genetics may have played a part in things, but they may not have.

As well, muscle does not 'turn to fat' as stated by a previous poster. They are two distinct types of cells - myocytes and adipocytes.

I have no comments on your n=2 life experience of knowing young people who have died except that I'm sorry for the loss of your friends. 45, 50 or anything around that age is FAR too young to leave this world.

[Mattingly]

I think that this sad picture speaks of what may have become Kirby's unfortunate undoing. The person who gave it to me listed it as being from 2005.

http://woolis.com/images/Fanfest2005/05fanfest001Puckett&Lantz.jpg

[ballparks]

I think that this sad picture speaks of what may have become Kirby's unfortunate undoing. The person who gave it to me listed it as being from 2005.

http://woolis.com/images/Fanfest2005/05fanfest001Puckett&Lantz.jpg

Mattingly.
Yes. That's a very, very sad image.

[Mattingly]

Mattingly.
Yes. That's a very, very sad image.
Even sadder, it didn't appear Photoshopped. Just made me want to hang my head down low. Someone of his height should not be carrying around so much girth.

Perhaps a physican trainer and a dietician would've helped.

BTW, what do you do in the medical/healthcare field? Doctor? Nurse? Pharmacist?

I'm just going to close this thread for awhile. Let a 48-hr window develop after his death before we start discussing these things. At least us being decent people could always be a good thing and let his family and the Twins family sort through their decisions as need be.

[Mattingly]

Re-opening, at the request of one of the Admins.

Please continue to discuss in a civil manner.

[CuriousBoston]

Obesity and family history have a LOT more proof as risk factors for stroke than steroids do. There's theoretical reasons to believe that steroids might raise the risk of cardiovascular disease, but you won't find anything on this subject that approaches the reams of scientific evidence linking obesity and heredity to stroke. And it's not "highly irregular" for such a "young man" to die of stroke - I know of two men, relatives of close friends, who died in their late 40's/early 50's, one from stroke and the other from heart disease. One was a 50 year old fitness freak with a six pack, who hadn't smoked a cigarette in his life, and hadn't eaten meat for 30 years. Died of a massive heart attack at age 50. The other was in his late forties, and while not in great shape, was nowhere near as obese as Puckett.

As others have said, Puckett was over 300 lbs at 5'8", and both of his parents died before age 50. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Not to mention the fact that Puckett's body, even in his prime, was not exactly the type of body that screams "steroids!"

And the guy who suggested that the glaucoma arouses suspiscions of steroid use is just plain ignorant. What, is everything caused by steroids now? Glaucoma isn't even one of the suspected side effects of steroids.

Come on now.

I'M WITH YOU. At least half the posts in this thread have medically false information. Secondly, who says he used what drug? Thirdly, early death runs in families.

Please close this thread; it does not need revisiting as an example to youth. Anyone that pays on penny to see Bonds play on tv, in person, or seriously considers him a "ballplayer" instead of a "chosing to use illegal drugs to cheat", now THAT is a discussion to have. How the blazes to explain a criminals presence on the ballfield? Yet, in other threads, comparing him to baseball greats is going on.

GOOD GRIEF! LET US STOP THIS NONSENSE.

ps-I didn't see Matt's post until after I posted. Don't want to be rude to Matt, do feel very strongly about this.

[Mattingly]

I'M WITH YOU. At least half the posts in this thread have medically false information. Secondly, who says he used what drug? Thirdly, early death runs in families.

Please close this thread; it does not need revisiting as an example to youth. Anyone that pays on penny to see Bonds play on tv, in person, or seriously considers him a "ballplayer" instead of a "chosing to use illegal drugs to cheat", now THAT is a discussion to have. How the blazes to explain a criminals presence on the ballfield? Yet, in other threads, comparing him to baseball greats is going on.

GOOD GRIEF! LET US STOP THIS NONSENSE.

ps-I didn't see Matt's post until after I posted. Don't want to be rude to Matt, do feel very strongly about this.
As to the cause of death, I think that people may be reading too much into this. People go out of their ways every single day to avoid death, such as not crossing the street when a 40 ft city bus passes by. Heck, even a bike rider doing 30mph can kill you.

I'm not medically qualified, as I don't work in the healthcare field, but looking at that pic I'd posted of Kirby, I can see that his heart may have difficulty keeping up with all that weight. It's like a locomotive that pulled 75 cars, but suddenly, you're giving it 150 cars. Sooner or later, it's above and beyond its limit.

What happens to an elevator designed to hold 2,000 lbs but you put 4,000 lbs in there? The cables may snap, that's what. Everything has its physical limits. I'm just talking logic, so please forgive me if I come off sounding like some Dr Quack.

One of the Admins felt that there was some useful info here, so I obliged and re-opened the thread. I felt it was too early to discuss this, as he hadn't (to my kowledge) even had an autopsy yet.

My only strong feelings about this is that he should be laid properly into the Earth from where we all somehow originated (no, I'm not talking evolution here) before people worry about this.

I'm not sure what Kirby's diet and exercise regimen consisted of, but I would hope it didn't consist of greasy and fatty foods, donuts, nor of sitting around watching TV on his couch. I think that some form of lo-fat foods and lots of nutrition (no, I'm not a dietician either), as well as some reasonable amount of time on a treadmill or something similar could've prolonged his life.

Perhaps we would've been having this same discussion 3-4 years later, but that would've been an additional 3-4 years of living and breathting for Kirby. To me, that would've been worth it. :)

[julusnc]

It is a proven medical fact that black men have a higher chance of stroke in their forties.

[Mattingly]

It is a proven medical fact that black men have a higher chance of stroke in their forties.
I hadn't realized that. Where'd you get this info from?

Thx. :)

[rockin500]

I hadn't realized that. Where'd you get this info from?

Thx. :)
common medical journals.

[Mattingly]

common medical journals.
I'm not doubting this. I just haven't studied that info. You or anyone have any links to this? I wouldn't mind reading about this if it's a short article.

[Jestre]

ESPN2 just had a doctor on discussing Barry Bonds and steroid use. He stressed that one of the most compelling factors against the usage of steroids is the increased risk of stroke and heart disease.

[Mattingly]

ESPN2 just had a doctor on discussing Barry Bonds and steroid use. He stressed that one of the most compelling factors against the usage of steroids is the increased risk of stroke and heart disease.
Can you paraphrase what that medical doctor said? I'm thinking this may have been a head of the heart (cardio) division.

Not to discredit anyone (especially since my medical knowledge is very lacking), but I still think family history and one's diet could also count towards a stroke and/or heart disease. It's not like the only people who die of these diseases were jocks taking steroids.

[Metal Ed]

Everybody's a doctor, aren't they.

In fact, acute-angle closure glaucoma is resultant from increased intra-ocular pressure (too much pressure in the eye). This is because of a mismatch between eye fluid inflow and outflow. A cause of this impediment of outflow is vascular comprimise (blood vessels not working properly). Hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol) is a common cause of 'blood flow problems' because of plaque (gunk) deposits in the vessels. The etiology (cause) of this can have a high familial and genetic component, but a mismatch between 'good' and 'bad' cholesterol with elevation of the levels of bad cholesterol is a known (albeit reverable upon cessation) side effect of anabolic steroid use.

.


I think you meant to say "reversible" rather than "reverable". And that is true, with cholesterol levels returning to normal after stopping the drug. Now it seems to me that even you, who thinks that Puckett may have been taking something when he was playing, would not suggest that Puckett was continuing his drug regimen well into retirement (having now died 10 years after his last game), during which time he became morbidly obese. Granted, you might say that the damage could have already been done by that point, and indeed, he came down with glaucoma during his playing days. But you would be forgetting that the hypercholesterolemic effects of steroids tend to be laregly mitigated by frequent exercise, which Puckett was obviously doing when he was playing baseball.

And if Puckett had hypercholesterolemia during his retirement days, I doubt that you would attribute them to steroids when a poor ratio of HDL:LDL, and hypercholesterolemia, are very strongly linked to obesity and heredity. And there are reams of scientific evidence proving this, literally thousands of studies, as opposed to anabolic steroids, for which we have comparatively few studies. And we have zero longitudinal studies or long term studies on steroids and CVD morbidity and mortality, not to mention glaucoma.

[DoubleX]

Can you paraphrase what that medical doctor said? I'm thinking this may have been a head of the heart (cardio) division.

Not to discredit anyone (especially since my medical knowledge is very lacking), but I still think family history and one's diet could also count towards a stroke and/or heart disease. It's not like the only people who die of these diseases were jocks taking steroids.

Lots of things can contribute to a stroke. Steroids just being one of many possible factors. That's not to say that was a factor in Puckett's death, and after looking at that picture you linked earlier, I think it's fairly clear that the biggest factor in Kirby's death was his health.

[Metal Ed]

In fact, acute-angle closure glaucoma is resultant from increased intra-ocular pressure (too much pressure in the eye). .

Really? According to the Glaucoma Foundation, acute angle-closure glaucoma is caused by a SUDDEN increase in pressure, such as occurs within hours. Problems caused by high cholesterol take not hours, but literally years to develop, hence are dubbed "chronic" or "degenerative" rather than "acute". Basic medical lingo, doctor; I'm surprised you didn't learn this in medical school (I assume that you are a doctor since you stated that "everyone's a doctor". Or was that a sarcastic personal attack on me?)

Your notion of hypercholesterolemia -> restricted blood flow -> increased ocular pressure -> glaucoma lends itself to degenerative glaucoma, which is dubbed primary chronic open-angle glaucoma, not acute-angle closure glaucoma.

[Jestre]

Can you paraphrase what that medical doctor said? I'm thinking this may have been a head of the heart (cardio) division.

Not to discredit anyone (especially since my medical knowledge is very lacking), but I still think family history and one's diet could also count towards a stroke and/or heart disease. It's not like the only people who die of these diseases were jocks taking steroids.


I was paraphrasing what he said. He wasn't even discussing Puckett, it was an expert in the field that ESPN2 brought on to put the Bonds cocktails into layman's terms and give a synopsis of what each drug did to enhance performance and what the side effects were. He was quite emphatic that the chance of stroke and heart disease were significantly increased by steroid and/or growth hormone usage.

[rockin500]

I'm not doubting this. I just haven't studied that info. You or anyone have any links to this? I wouldn't mind reading about this if it's a short article.
my mom is an RN so she knows that stuff and we discuss stuff like that. she reads those things since they are pertinent to her occupation.

family history does indeed play a large role, but for whatever reason, blacks have it in higher degree. dont really have much time to go searching for common links.

[MrUniverse09]

I would be willing to bet that I know more about steroids than most anyone here and I can tell you that his glaucoma was NOT related to them (if he even took them) and his stroke was certainly not because of them. It had to do with the fact that he was obese more than anything.

Everyone today wants to point to steroids as the cause for all the terrible things that's happened to athletes when the fact is that they have not been linked definitively to ONE death. Most other side effects can be limited or avoided by researching proper methods of administration. Steroids are basically derivitives of the male sex hormone, testosterone and can be used safely. Hormonal therapy for the aging, chronically sick, and even birth control are very common.

That said, I don't advocate using them because it sends a bad message to children, who might use them to get ahead and seriously damage themselves (use in children and women IS dangerous). And of course, that they are illegal now.

But I just laugh at everyone out there that thinks they are the devil and by taking them you'll automatically be impotent and heart-attack prone.

[Mattingly]

I was paraphrasing what he said. He wasn't even discussing Puckett, it was an expert in the field that ESPN2 brought on to put the Bonds cocktails into layman's terms and give a synopsis of what each drug did to enhance performance and what the side effects were. He was quite emphatic that the chance of stroke and heart disease were significantly increased by steroid and/or growth hormone usage.
Thanks. I'm not too sure I'd worry about that, since the thing about his weighing over 300 lbs (close to 400 at only 5'8"), then the family history of poor health.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is perhaps the most famous admitted steroids user and I don't hear anything of his being near death. Even Jose Canseco isn't near death, so I'm not too sure that those causes, even if they applied to many situations, would necessarily apply here.

[Mattingly]

my mom is an RN so she knows that stuff and we discuss stuff like that. she reads those things since they are pertinent to her occupation.

family history does indeed play a large role, but for whatever reason, blacks have it in higher degree. dont really have much time to go searching for common links.
Thanks for the effort. I'll figure out what terms to google this thing, so that I can get something useful. If you get the right words, teh relevant articles from quality sources will be displayed.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Thanks. I'm not too sure I'd worry about that, since the thing about his weighing over 300 lbs (close to 400 at only 5'8"), then the family history of poor health.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is perhaps the most famous admitted steroids user and I don't hear anything of his being near death. Even Jose Canseco isn't near death, so I'm not too sure that those causes, even if they applied to many situations, would necessarily apply here.
Schwarzenegger has undergone at least one heart procedure.

[rockin500]

Schwarzenegger has undergone at least one heart procedure.
and isnt he on some medication to keep his heart healthy? He is not in exactly what you call good cardiovascular shape.

[Captain Cold Nose]

and isnt he on some medication to keep his heart healthy? He is not in exactly what you call good cardiovascular shape.
Right. He openly acknowledged taking steroids probably contributed to his heart issues.
Of course, that doesn't mean every person who abused (key term there) steroids is going to develop serious health issues. Or that Puckett's health issues were attributable to steroids.

[Mattingly]

Schwarzenegger has undergone at least one heart procedure.
I'm getting a few links:

http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/archives/000300.html (some characters don't fully display)
In April of 1997, Arnold�then publicist, Catherine Olim, informed the world that Arnold hadundergone elective heart surgery to replace an aortic valve, at the USC University Hospital in LosAngeles. In a statement attributed to the then 49-year-old star, he assured his fans, 샨oosing toundergo open-heart surgery when I never felt sick was the hardest decision I� ever made. I can now look forward to a long, healthy life with my family.lim told the press that the operation was tocorrect a congenital heart condition. 쓴eroids,he declared, 쨡ve nothing to do with this.
If this article is correct, then I stand corrected.

Still, I do wonder what Barry will look like 5 years from now. If he does indeed retire after this season, people wonder whether he'll be inducted in the Hall after 5 years. I still wonder what he'll look like.

[Jestre]

Right. He openly acknowledged taking steroids probably contributed to his heart issues.
Of course, that doesn't mean every person who abused (key term there) steroids is going to develop serious health issues. Or that Puckett's health issues were attributable to steroids.


If Puckett's death can in any way be linked to steroid use and bringing that fact to light prevents one kid from taking steroids......

[Captain Cold Nose]

If Puckett's death can in any way be linked to steroid use and bringing that fact to light prevents one kid from taking steroids......
Is there even the slightest shred of evidence Puckett took steroids?
I'm sorry, but a man has died. Because there is a slight possibility the obvious did not contribute to his death, he needs to be turned into a test study and have all kinds of myopic allegations thrown into his death because of some false noble premise it might save someone down the line?
Does the forest even have any trees anymore?

[Metal Ed]

Is there even the slightest shred of evidence Puckett took steroids?
I'm sorry, but a man has died. Because there is a slight possibility the obvious did not contribute to his death, he needs to be turned into a test study and have all kinds of myopic allegations thrown into his death because of some false noble premise it might save someone down the line?
Does the forest even have any trees anymore?



Agreed. Yes, steroids have infested baseball and the issue needs to be confronted; but let's not turn this into the Salem witch trials. Not everyone who has heart disease or stroke is taking steroids; in fact, the vast, vast majority of people with these diseases have never touched anabolic steroids.

Puckett's body made Yogi Berra look like a male model by comparison, and in all of history not a word has ever been spoken about Puckett and steroids until..... this thread, I think.

Salem witch trials.

[Rennie Stennett]

Nobody talks about these non-essential amino acids. I know athletes that take them in cycles, because there is some risks if you take them for long periods of time. Does anyone know more about these ?

[jpenrod]

Agreed. Yes, steroids have infested baseball and the issue needs to be confronted; but let's not turn this into the Salem witch trials. Not everyone who has heart disease or stroke is taking steroids; in fact, the vast, vast majority of people with these diseases have never touched anabolic steroids.

Puckett's body made Yogi Berra look like a male model by comparison, and in all of history not a word has ever been spoken about Puckett and steroids until..... this thread, I think.

Salem witch trials.

I agree, the health issues Puckett expressed probably had a lot more to do with him not taking care of his body. According to the Ameircan Heart Association about 45,000 peolpe between the age 45 and54 die of a cardiovascular disease cause a stroke or heart attck. Pucketts death is a shame but not a reason to start throwing accusations of steroid use. This is ridiculous.

[hudsonharden]

I don't have a problem with people discussing this so close to Puckett's death. You strike while the iron is hot, and it's something people are talking about now. We'll all have something totally different to talk about 6 months from now.

Statistically, African Americans have a shorter life expectancy than Caucasian American. However, this is not necessarily genetic and may be more closely linked the large socio-economic gap between the group. I don't think Puckett's poor health was in any way linked to low income.

Steroid? My gut says no, but seeing the thread about greenies got me thinking. An ex-roommate of mine used to take them a lot for hangonver, and he said they were a great appetite supressent. Puckett was never a skinny man during his career, but its possible that he was taking diet pills for energy and alertness, and upon retirement he no longer needed them or couldn't take them due to his glaucoma and returned to his "actual" weight.

Just my non-professional opinion.

[Metal Ed]

Greenies have been entrenched in baseball much longer than steroids. If it is absolutely necessary to postulate baseless drug rumors, might as well use greenies rather than steroids.