Baseball is a dying sport

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

This thread might create a controversy but it depicts the fact that baseball is on the decline and people refuse to see it. In the pas decade, Major League Baseball can no longer be considered "America's sport". American Football (NFL) has taken over, kids are no longer interested. The common explanation for this is that kids (and most people) find baseball a "boring sport".
Let's take an example, let's say...1975, Dallas , everybody was into baseball, either rooting for the Houston Astros or the Texas Rangers. On those summer days, kids would go to the baseball field, play until the night came and then go home and watch baseball. In the morning, they would pick up the newspaper their father left lying around and flick to the "SPORTS" section and immediatly seek information about their team, standings, stats, news,etc.

In 2005, the summer, you can go to Texas and see most people wearing a Dallas Cowboys (football, for those who don't know) hat and going nuts in front of their television screen to see their quarterback give the ball away with only seconds to go in the crucial game of the Cowboys season and watch with misery the opposing team score. At the same time, the Houston Astros advanced to the postseason and defeating the Braves with an awesome 17-inning win topped off by Chris Burke's winning homer and Clemens pitching three outstanding innings in relief. But, no, they would rather watch their Cowboys QB fumble the ball than Craig Biggio steal third and score the winning run of any of the Astro's 162 games.

Let me continue, I live in Montreal, I recently had to deal with the loss of the MLB franchise know as the Montreal Expos. To this day, I can remember that last game, when Ryan Church popped up in foul ground to Mike Piazza to end the Expo's 36-year legacy.

I am currently a sound, above-average hitting and fielding third baseman.
You have no idea how fast ville de Montreal and the citizens of this wonderful country have destroyed baseball. Mayor of the Island of Montreal, Gerald Tremblay and his associates are currently in the midst of destroying baseball. They are going to replace most of the diamonds with soccer fields. You know why BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T CARE, they DON'T CARE.
Luckily, my baseball diamond will be preserved (because the Quebec Governement makes money off people like me that rent baseball fields during hot summer nights and enjoy ourselves.) the only reason certain fields will NOT BE DESTROYED is because they're making money. There's no more love for Andre Dawson, Tim Raines or Gary Carter up here, now people have love for players you may know (which I also have love for) Alex Kovalev, Saku Koivu and Jose Theodore.


Life can be unnfair, live with it.

[runningshoes]

Baseball will still be here long after we're dead, Steve.

It will just have a more international flavour.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Baseball will still be here long after we're dead, Steve.

It will just have a more international flavour.
I know, it won't be as popular as the days of Lou Gehrig or Babe Ruth though.

[Sweet Lou]

Maybe the World Baseball Classic will help spark some interest (though I doubt it) and it HAS been good that some teams besides the Yankees have won the World Series the past few years. (I'm not a Yankees hater, I'm just glad the wealth has been spread around)
I don't know that baseball is dying, but other sports are getting more exposure and becoming more popular, such as soccer. And I'd say Football has been more popular than baseball for a long long time. We just have to keep doing our part to get people interested, show them the subtle and finer points of the game, and help them pick a team to root for! :)
Lou

[runningshoes]

I know, it won't be as popular as the days of Lou Gehrig or Babe Ruth though.

I doubt it ever was.

[Mattingly]

I know, it won't be as popular as the days of Lou Gehrig or Babe Ruth though.
How do you measure popularity? I'm not sure how old the other sports are compared to baseball. Where did MLB rank in the 1920s-'30s back then, as opposed to football? I don't think that the NBA was around back then.

With all the TV shows, baseball would actually need to do some serious marketing in order to remain more popular.

[Brad Chadford]

People will lose interest in the NFL when a big scandle exposes the fact that the outcomes of games are more fixed than boxing! ;) :crazy

Then they'll all come running back to baseball begging for forgiveness!:D

[Mattingly]

People will lose interest in the NFL when a big scandle exposes the fact that the outcomes of games are more fixed than boxing! ;) :crazy

Then they'll all come running back to baseball begging for forgiveness!:D
Considering how popular pro wrestling (WWE) is, despite the fact that it's "sports entertainment", not a true regulated sport, and that Vince McMahon hires theme writers to decide the outcomes, sometimes I wonder.

The NFL is a true sport that is regulated and has drug testing. Their stars are more outspoken, and instead of curtain calls for home games, they stick their heads into the fan area at the end zone for a nice back-slapping pat-down by the appreciative fans after having scored a touchdown.

Between the glorification of the individual and the way players strut their stuff, baseball can seem like a chess game by comparison.

I guess that since the NBA has so many fast breaks, it'll be very popular. Baseball hasn't changed by tons for a few years I've guessed. It's a great game, but I don't think it's as exciting re the fast pace as some other sports.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

I guess that since the NBA has so many fast breaks, it'll be very popular. Baseball hasn't changed by tons for a few years I've guessed. It's a great game, but I don't think it's as exciting re the fast pace as some other sports.

Actually, I find watching basketball live on your tv is quite boring. Baseball, at least has some unexpected twists and turns.
Hockey is by far the most "exciting" sport because it is so fast.

[Captain Cold Nose]

The simple fact of the matter is baseball has too much high level competition as compared to years past. Back when Gehrig and Ruth were playing, the most popular sports beside it at the professional level were boxing, golf and tennis. The latter two individual sports now have perceptions of being snob sports, only played regularly by the wealthy as equipment and facilities improved through the years. As for boxing, it became way too political, way too under the influence of corruption to maintain anything but a die hard level of fandom. The general public is far more intrigued than interested.
Pro football was in its infancy back then, with teams coming and going throughout the twenties (Marion and Portsmouth, Ohio had teams, for crying out loud.) The college game was the showcase for many years. The NBA didn't start until the mid-40's and singular dominance of the Celtics didn't help it any.
Baseball has far more endured than any other sport at the pro level. Kids still play it. It's shares the mountain top now, but won't be toppled.

[Mike D.]

I don't buy it...major league teams have been setting attendance records in recent years, and the minors have seen a major resurgence in attendence as well. Baseball was never really that popular in Montreal, so using that as your point of reference is going to give you jaded results. Here in New England, there are a lot of soccer fields, but a lot of baseball diamonds, too...and all are full of kids on summer weekends.

Sure, soccer and football are popular with kids today, as are all the "X games" type sports...but the fact that baseball now has competition (and people more choices) doesn't mean it's dying. The percentage of baseball fans might be smaller, but the pool is a lot bigger too, both domestically and internationally.

Does baseball need to do more to recruit young people? Absolutely. Does that mean it's dying? I don't think so. Hopefully someone at major league baseball will make the investment in the fans of tomorrow...more "fan fest" type activities (like at the All Star Game) and maybe even *gasp* a few playoff games played early enough for kids to watch. Time will tell, but I believe reports of the sports demise are rather premature.

Plus, football is popular, yes...but they play 16 games, only on weekends, and during the day...so yes, more people watch a football game on TV than do a baseball game...but that again doesn't mean baseball is dying, especially since there's so little overlap between seasons.

[wamby]

I don't buy it...major league teams have been setting attendance records in recent years, and the minors have seen a major resurgence in attendence as well. Baseball was never really that popular in Montreal, so using that as your point of reference is going to give you jaded results. Here in New England, there are a lot of soccer fields, but a lot of baseball diamonds, too...and all are full of kids on summer weekends.

Sure, soccer and football are popular with kids today, as are all the "X games" type sports...but the fact that baseball now has competition (and people more choices) doesn't mean it's dying. The percentage of baseball fans might be smaller, but the pool is a lot bigger too, both domestically and internationally.

Does baseball need to do more to recruit young people? Absolutely. Does that mean it's dying? I don't think so. Hopefully someone at major league baseball will make the investment in the fans of tomorrow...more "fan fest" type activities (like at the All Star Game) and maybe even *gasp* a few playoff games played early enough for kids to watch. Time will tell, but I believe reports of the sports demise are rather premature.

Plus, football is popular, yes...but they play 16 games, only on weekends, and during the day...so yes, more people watch a football game on TV than do a baseball game...but that again doesn't mean baseball is dying, especially since there's so little overlap between seasons.

I don't think that good attendence correlates to high popularity. I think it shows that right now baseball is seen as a nice family friendly activity. I can't tell you how many games I've attended at Jacobs Field where the park is park is full and yet hardly anyone around me was actually watching the game or seemed to actually know much about baseball. I don't know what attendence figures will look like 10 or 20 years when these kids who look to have little interest in baseball have become adults. Most of my friends have kids and I don't a single one of those kids who cares about baseball.

[Mattingly]

Plus, football is popular, yes...but they play 16 games, only on weekends, and during the day...so yes, more people watch a football game on TV than do a baseball game...but that again doesn't mean baseball is dying, especially since there's so little overlap between seasons.
Question to all:

When people say that football is more popular than baseball, do they count individual MLB games against individual NFL games? I don't think that ESPN's Sunday Night games could be as popular as an NFL game on Saturday or Sunday. We all know that the Super Bowl is far more popular than the World Series.

Sometimes I wish they'd just add up the number of TV audience members for each baseball game then compare this to football. Unfortunately, likely won't happen, so those individual baseball games look far less popular than the few football games.

Also, NCAA football is far more popular than NCAA baseball has ever been. Every Saturday when it's being played, college football is a staple.

[runningshoes]

Prohibit gambling in sports and we'll see how long football hangs on to this title.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Prohibit gambling in sports and we'll see how long football hangs on to this title.
Gambling has killed most sports' value.
I wish Bush would make it illegal and we would see MLB back at the top.

[Mike D.]

I don't think that good attendence correlates to high popularity. I think it shows that right now baseball is seen as a nice family friendly activity. I can't tell you how many games I've attended at Jacobs Field where the park is park is full and yet hardly anyone around me was actually watching the game or seemed to actually know much about baseball.


With the cost of attending a major league game today, it's hardly a "family friendly" activity...the only reason someone would drop that kind of cash is if they really wanted to be there. Sure it's cheaper in Cleveland than Boston, but it still ain't cheap!

Maybe the fans aren't SABR geeks like some of us, but they obviously wanted to be there enough to pay the price. They're called casual fans...and they outnumber us hardcore types by a huge margin. I know people who watch almost EVERY Red Sox game today who couldn't tell Bill Lee from Luis Tiant, and they have no idea what OPS is, but they enjoy the game, none-the-less.


I don't know what attendence figures will look like 10 or 20 years when these kids who look to have little interest in baseball have become adults. Most of my friends have kids and I don't a single one of those kids who cares about baseball.

Again, you can't take a small sample size of "people I know with kids" and broadcast that across the nation. We'd need to look at national little league and high school numbers, young fans collection baseball cards, sales of baseball books, movies, and video games to those under 18, and a bunch more to make any assumptions.

A lot of it's regional, too...a kid in Texas is gonna probably be a football fan, a kid in Montreal will probably like hockey, but a kid in St. Louis, Chicago, or Boston is probably gonna be a baseball fan.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but the "baseball is gonna be dead in 10 to 20 years" stuff was all said 10 and 20 years ago, and it's still going strong.

[Mike D.]

A great question...what is "more popular" based on? I would imagine in most cases, it's not even attendance...it's just a general "feeling" someone gets, and then assumes as fact. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I've never seen any hard data on "sports popularity".

I guess you could ask a large, diverse group of citizens from around the country and maybe get some solid data, but I'm unaware of anyone doing that.


Question to all:

When people say that football is more popular than baseball, do they count individual MLB games against individual NFL games? I don't think that ESPN's Sunday Night games could be as popular as an NFL game on Saturday or Sunday. We all know that the Super Bowl is far more popular than the World Series.

Sometimes I wish they'd just add up the number of TV audience members for each baseball game then compare this to football. Unfortunately, likely won't happen, so those individual baseball games look far less popular than the few football games.

Also, NCAA football is far more popular than NCAA baseball has ever been. Every Saturday when it's being played, college football is a staple.

[runningshoes]

A great question...what is "more popular" based on? I would imagine in most cases, it's not even attendance...it's just a general "feeling" someone gets, and then assumes as fact. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I've never seen any hard data on "sports popularity".

I guess you could ask a large, diverse group of citizens from around the country and maybe get some solid data, but I'm unaware of anyone doing that.

I think merchandise sales is one good indicator of which is more popular.

Teevision ratings would probably be another.

[wamby]

With the cost of attending a major league game today, it's hardly a "family friendly" activity...the only reason someone would drop that kind of cash is if they really wanted to be there. Sure it's cheaper in Cleveland than Boston, but it still ain't cheap!

Maybe the fans aren't SABR geeks like some of us, but they obviously wanted to be there enough to pay the price. They're called casual fans...and they outnumber us hardcore types by a huge margin. I know people who watch almost EVERY Red Sox game today who couldn't tell Bill Lee from Luis Tiant, and they have no idea what OPS is, but they enjoy the game, none-the-less.



Again, you can't take a small sample size of "people I know with kids" and broadcast that across the nation. We'd need to look at national little league and high school numbers, young fans collection baseball cards, sales of baseball books, movies, and video games to those under 18, and a bunch more to make any assumptions.

A lot of it's regional, too...a kid in Texas is gonna probably be a football fan, a kid in Montreal will probably like hockey, but a kid in St. Louis, Chicago, or Boston is probably gonna be a baseball fan.

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but the "baseball is gonna be dead in 10 to 20 years" stuff was all said 10 and 20 years ago, and it's still going strong.

I don't know about Boston but in an area like Cleveland tickets get passed around a lot and the type of people who go to Jacobs Field are people who can afford it pretty easily. When the casual fan market dries up we will have to see how attendance is affected.

I know that youth baseball is big, but my feeling is that it is parent driven and if kids weren't pushed into by their parents they would rather be off doing something else. When I was a kid I didn't have to be pushred to play baseball and neither did the other kids in my neighborhood. Now it is all organized and there are swing coaches for eight year old kids. It's ridiculous and I think most of those will run form baseball as soon as they can.

[Tigerfan1974]

with some many other distractions and entertainments today, baseball, and all field sports, are declining some.
But this great game we love will continue thru this century and into this new millenia.

[Mike D.]

I don't know about Boston but in an area like Cleveland tickets get passed around a lot and the type of people who go to Jacobs Field are people who can afford it pretty easily. When the casual fan market dries up we will have to see how attendance is affected.


See, in Boston you can barely get tickets at all...if I find a $20 bleacher seat ticket on the secondary market for $40, I grab it. And that's for seeing the Royals or Rangers...when the Yankees are in town...forget it!

I just don't see the "casual fan" market drying up...what do you suggest would cause this to suddenly happen? The Indians had a long run of sellouts when they were winning, I imagine now that they're back on that track, we'll see more of that.


I know that youth baseball is big, but my feeling is that it is parent driven and if kids weren't pushed into by their parents they would rather be off doing something else. When I was a kid I didn't have to be pushred to play baseball and neither did the other kids in my neighborhood. Now it is all organized and there are swing coaches for eight year old kids. It's ridiculous and I think most of those will run form baseball as soon as they can.


I dunno...that's quite an assumption that there's an awful lot of bad parents out there. Sure, it happens...but you really think it's anywhere close to a majority? Go watch a little league game...the kids are having fun more often than not.

[DodgerBlue8188]

Honestly, I think baseball is boring most of the time. I love to watch the Dodgers play.But other teams I dont like can be boring. I can watch any ol' football team play,but not for baseball.

[Dontworry]

Yeah baseball is dying...

Yet, the past two years attendance records have been shattered.

Good god the " steroid era " has hurt baseball...<sarcasm>

[Lipsander]

Baseball is dying, coming from an Expos fan, that is hillarious.

[jpenrod]

a few points:

1. Football is a more "exciting" game to watch than baseball. there is something going on every play of a football game and "potential for a big play at anytime" by comparison Basbeall is more of a marathon where things seem to move at a slower pace. In todays society of video games and ADD many find baseball "boring"

2. Society is a fast paced lifestyle now with cell phones, blackberrys and the like people are on the go more now than they have ever been leaving them little time to give up 3 hours everynight to watch a baseball game making it difficult for the "casual fan to keep up with teams and standings and what not, and if they can not follow it is 2 minutes they are not interested. I realize this is a stereotype, but from my experience it is the norm. People are more willing to give up 3 hours of theire week to relax and watch their favorit e football team play every game for 16 weeks than they are to give up 3 hours everynight for 30 weeks to watch what they consider a slow game anyway.

3. Baseball's efforts to make the games more fan friendly are self defeating. They say that the average fan wants mor offense to make the game more interesting, the only problem is more offense ussually means longer games. The average fan does not want a longer game but a shorter game, but give the average fan a shorter game (a 1-0 2 hit pithching gem) and they say it is too boring. Personally I find pitching duels much more interesting because every hit counts and any single play can decide a game. Offensive slugfests bore me because it is ussually poorly played baseball, but then I am not what many would consider an average fan.

Personally Baseball tops my list of sports to follow, but most of my friends do not get it and despite my best efforts to explain the details of the game they just are not interested in sitting still long enough to get it. Football games are much more of a social event, I can not tell you how many times I have met up with a group of friends to watch a football game and it turns out I am the only one really watching everyone else is half watching the game and half socializing, they never feel they miss anything. just my $0.02

[Mike D.]

a few points:
Football games are much more of a social event, I can not tell you how many times I have met up with a group of friends to watch a football game and it turns out I am the only one really watching everyone else is half watching the game and half socializing, they never feel they miss anything.

This certainly true, and I credit a lot of it to the fact that there's one game a week for "your team" and it's almost always on a weekend afternoon, when theoretically, you have free time to watch it. You're more likely to get the guys together Sunday at 1 or 4 PM than on a Tuesday night at 7, for a baseball game.

I don't agree about football being fast paced, though...most often...I find it boring...it's small fits of activity surrounded by a whole lot of standing around, walking back to the line of scrimmage, reviewing plays, having time outs, and the like. Now HOCKEY is fast paced...but not particularly popular in the US.

I think Football is popular because it's pretty much made for TV...replays and commericals cover up the slow spots seemlessly, and the game in general "plays" on screen well. Baseball is the perfect "radio" game, although it still has a lot of appeal on TV. Hockey is lousy on TV, impossible on the radio, but a blast in person.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

This thread might create a controversy but it depicts the fact that baseball is on the decline and people refuse to see it. In the pas decade, Major League Baseball can no longer be considered "America's sport". American Football (NFL) has taken over, kids are no longer interested. The common explanation for this is that kids (and most people) find baseball a "boring sport".
Let's take an example, let's say...1975, Dallas , everybody was into baseball, either rooting for the Houston Astros or the Texas Rangers. On those summer days, kids would go to the baseball field, play until the night came and then go home and watch baseball. In the morning, they would pick up the newspaper their father left lying around and flick to the "SPORTS" section and immediatly seek information about their team, standings, stats, news,etc.

In 2005, the summer, you can go to Texas and see most people wearing a Dallas Cowboys (football, for those who don't know) hat and going nuts in front of their television screen to see their quarterback give the ball away with only seconds to go in the crucial game of the Cowboys season and watch with misery the opposing team score. At the same time, the Houston Astros advanced to the postseason and defeating the Braves with an awesome 17-inning win topped off by Chris Burke's winning homer and Clemens pitching three outstanding innings in relief. But, no, they would rather watch their Cowboys QB fumble the ball than Craig Biggio steal third and score the winning run of any of the Astro's 162 games.

Let me continue, I live in Montreal, I recently had to deal with the loss of the MLB franchise know as the Montreal Expos. To this day, I can remember that last game, when Ryan Church popped up in foul ground to Mike Piazza to end the Expo's 36-year legacy.

I am currently a sound, above-average hitting and fielding third baseman.
You have no idea how fast ville de Montreal and the citizens of this wonderful country have destroyed baseball. Mayor of the Island of Montreal, Gerald Tremblay and his associates are currently in the midst of destroying baseball. They are going to replace most of the diamonds with soccer fields. You know why BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T CARE, they DON'T CARE.
Luckily, my baseball diamond will be preserved (because the Quebec Governement makes money off people like me that rent baseball fields during hot summer nights and enjoy ourselves.) the only reason certain fields will NOT BE DESTROYED is because they're making money. There's no more love for Andre Dawson, Tim Raines or Gary Carter up here, now people have love for players you may know (which I also have love for) Alex Kovalev, Saku Koivu and Jose Theodore.


Life can be unnfair, live with it.

Then why did basebal keep setting attendance records throughout the 1990s aand 2000s?

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

This certainly true, and I credit a lot of it to the fact that there's one game a week for "your team" and it's almost always on a weekend afternoon, when theoretically, you have free time to watch it. You're more likely to get the guys together Sunday at 1 or 4 PM than on a Tuesday night at 7, for a baseball game.

I don't agree about football being fast paced, though...most often...I find it boring...it's small fits of activity surrounded by a whole lot of standing around, walking back to the line of scrimmage, reviewing plays, having time outs, and the like. Now HOCKEY is fast paced...but not particularly popular in the US.

I think Football is popular because it's pretty much made for TV...replays and commericals cover up the slow spots seemlessly, and the game in general "plays" on screen well. Baseball is the perfect "radio" game, although it still has a lot of appeal on TV. Hockey is lousy on TV, impossible on the radio, but a blast in person.

Huh? Hockey is great everywhere!
I LOVE HOCKEY!! GO habs!;)

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Then why did basebal keep setting attendance records throughout the 1990s aand 2000s?
As that happened, tv ratings went down.

[jpenrod]

I don't agree about football being fast paced, though...most often...I find it boring...it's small fits of activity surrounded by a whole lot of standing around, walking back to the line of scrimmage, reviewing plays, having time outs, and the like. Now HOCKEY is fast paced...but not particularly popular in the US.

I think Football is popular because it's pretty much made for TV...replays and commericals cover up the slow spots seemlessly, and the game in general "plays" on screen well. Baseball is the perfect "radio" game, although it still has a lot of appeal on TV. Hockey is lousy on TV, impossible on the radio, but a blast in person.

You are correct, I suppose what I should have said is that given the social setting in which footbal is viewed it is a more fast paced game (in people's opinions) They can sit there drink beer and chat and when everyone reacts to the screen they look up and catch the replay. Baseball does not allow the replay as much because as soon as the play is over the game moves on. A very valid assessment Mike D. Thanks for clarifying.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

As that happened, tv ratings went down.
Is it more important to have fans in the seats or fans watching on TV? I watch hardly any baseball on TV because I simply don't have the time to watch all those four hour games.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Then why did basebal keep setting attendance records throughout the 1990s aand 2000s?

Because it catered to the average baseball "fan", who only wants to see a 10-7 ballgame. They turned baseball into a video game on the field. All the newer and larger stadiums might have something to do with more attendance as well. Heck, most stadiums now are like an amusement park. Kids go to a game and hardly sit in their seat.

[Mike D.]

Huh? Hockey is great everywhere!
I LOVE HOCKEY!! GO habs!;)

Hockey is much bigger in Canada than here in the US, obviously. I feel it doesn't translate well to TV, although HD TV might help that somewhat.

It's a blast live, though...on Sunday I took in a Providence Bruines (AHL) game with 17 friends of mine. It was a lopsided 7-2 win, but it was a good time for all, the serious hockey fans and the novices! I plan several similar gatherings for Pawtucket Red Sox (IL) games in a couple months!

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Hockey is much bigger in Canada than here in the US, obviously. I feel it doesn't translate well to TV, although HD TV might help that somewhat.

It's a blast live, though...on Sunday I took in a Providence Bruines (AHL) game with 17 friends of mine. It was a lopsided 7-2 win, but it was a good time for all, the serious hockey fans and the novices! I plan several similar gatherings for Pawtucket Red Sox (IL) games in a couple months!
Ever watch an NHL game on an HD Plasma TV?
Neither have I!:clapping

[jpenrod]

Because it catered to the average baseball "fan", who only wants to see a 10-7 ballgame. They turned baseball into a video game on the field. All the newer and larger stadiums might have something to do with more attendance as well. Heck, most stadiums now are like an amusement park. Kids go to a game and hardly sit in their seat.

You know one other thing effecting the attendence is the way MLB records attendance. Sometime in the 90's MLB went away from counting attendance at the gate to counting ticket sales as attendance, that is why the crowd often looks much smaller than what the announced attendance is (and all the kids running around the stadium doing everything but watching the game).

[Mike D.]

You know one other thing effecting the attendence is the way MLB records attendance. Sometime in the 90's MLB went away from counting attendance at the gate to counting ticket sales as attendance, that is why the crowd often looks much smaller than what the announced attendance is (and all the kids running around the stadium doing everything but watching the game).

I thought one league counted tickets sold and the other counted actual attendance. Did this change, or am I just completely wrong? :confused: :D

[Mike D.]

As that happened, tv ratings went down.

Fans have a lot more choices these days...the number of cable channels exploded during the same years we're talking about. Plus, you can now follow a game on the internet, so sitting for 3+ hours isn't neccesary.

Is that a sign of baseball's decline in popularity? I don't know. If football played 3 games a week, during the week, would it attract any more viewership than baseball? Probably not. People are busier than they used to be...but they still seem to follow the game. Web sites that cater to baseball news are popular, as are fantasy leagues.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Because it catered to the average baseball "fan", who only wants to see a 10-7 ballgame. They turned baseball into a video game on the field. All the newer and larger stadiums might have something to do with more attendance as well. Heck, most stadiums now are like an amusement park. Kids go to a game and hardly sit in their seat.
Us old guys like to complain that the new baseball fans don't enjoy the game the "right way". We live in time where kids live for entertainment. They are not going to just sit there for fours hours to watch game. I go to a lot of Giants games. They have all sorts of entertainment. In left field they have a batting cage for kids during the game. Baseball is the kind of game where you can do that. Even I will take a walk around the entire park as the game goes on. Is that so wrong? I do keep my eye on the game though and I wouldn't take the walk when Barry is up! But even in the good old days attendence was much lower. Terms like the Browns and A'S would draw like 400,000 people for the season. By today's standards that's awful.

[DTF955]

In a way, all things that we call 'games" are dying. I mean by that things that children or adults play, for fun or leisure. The sport of baseball, the part that's a business, is still doing well, that's the part about putting the fannies int eh seats, but as for popularity...

(This got a little more nostalgic than I planned, but oh well... :-)

You know, back when i was growing up, we loved the leisurely pace of the game, like baseball, or whiffleball in the backyard. I don't deny that I stunk, why I beaned the on-deck hitter by accident once in whiffleball, that's how bad I was. but it was fun, it was leisurely. We could have a good time, and laugh, and just...well, *play.*

But, it was the same with other games. Scrabble, Yahtzee, Connect Four, Uno, I'm sure you could all name tons of board games that entertained you and your friends.

I began to notice a change, though, in a few of my friends. A sad change. As we approached adulthood, and got more into video games, yeah, I enjoyed playing Intellivision and joking around with my buddies, making up jokes and making his sister burst out laughing as my Pacman swallowed a power pellet and at that precise moment I started singing "Ghostbusters." But, even then, video games were fun to me, things to be done at my leisure, no matter how badly I stunk at them. Life was to be enjoyed, the roses were to be smelled.

But my friends started to take on the ways of the world, way too fast paced. A few laughed hard when i said my life song would be "You Gotta Stop and Smell the Roses" when i was 16. (He also thought i was crazy for loving Barry Manilow in high school) They started getting into other entertainment, and sadly, a couple even started drinking.

Oh, I love football, too. that part about the fellowship, it's true, drinking soda pop and chatting during most of a football game is something I've done quite a bit with my church buddies, and so is playing board games during our game nights. We like to take things easy, and enjoy life, rather than rush here and there and everywhere till our brains are turned to mush with activities.

Sure, we work hard in our work, but games are for unwinding, relaxing, having fun. This is why the sport of baseball still oeprates well, and draws people, becasue the sport is where they bring the poeple in, and let them keep at their fast pace, kids running to video games and all the other things the parks have to offer, parents on cell phones, and everyone just busy about their business. Whereas the game, that "slow down and take it easy" game, remembering the halcyon days of ones youth, struggles, becasue those halcyon days are being replaced by the frenzy of video games and cell phones and everything else that demands we keep out attention on 193 things at once.

The Bible says int he last days, many shall go to and fro, and knowledge shall increase. We are, indeed, going to and fro, every which way but loose. It's not just the game of baseball. The sport is alive and well, but the game...just like all other games...is hurting. Just like few others would bother sitting down as a family for 2-3 hours and play a lively game of Monopoly together like my sister and her family do. Becasue while sports may be alive and well, nobody wants to bother, there is too much to do, too far to go, too much to think about, too much to soak in, for people to sit down...to a nice, fun game.

[Joe Simbam]

I know, it won't be as popular as the days of Lou Gehrig or Babe Ruth though.

Alright, I have a few points to state. :radio

1. Baseball can only be more popular now than it was during the days of Ruth and Gehrig. For starters, people all over the world know and watch MLB. Secondly, each MLB game is televised and is virtually accessible to any person (either through a home cable package or at a local sports bar).

2. Baseball attendance records: according to the site http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/AllTimeAttendance.htm, in the 1990s MLB had 490.8 million people attend. With 4 seasons left in this decade MLB has already had 387.5 million fans in attendance. I know that there are more parks and they are generally bigger but compared to Ruth and Gehrig's time in Yankee Stadium (for arguments sake we'll use both the decades of the 20's and 30's - 16 million for those 2 decades). In the first 5 years of the 2000's the Yankees have drawn 21+ million fans.

3. Maybe it seems like a dying sport because you are in Montreal. I would actually call it a killed sport for certain cities. Fans in some towns down know how great is is to have baseball until they kill their teams out of town (look out Tampa, K.C., Florida, etc.)

4. Your argument has no merit.

[Joe Simbam]

Oh, and to say that sold tickets instead of actual attendance is a wrong way to account attendance is a simple way out. Sold tickets with a smaller attendance can be blamed on many different things.

Such as weather

Insane amounts of tickets sold to brokers

or

maybe there is a real interest in baseball. Sometimes coincidence is just that, coincidence.:gt

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Alright, I have a few points to state. :radio

1. Baseball can only be more popular now than it was during the days of Ruth and Gehrig. For starters, people all over the world know and watch MLB. Secondly, each MLB game is televised and is virtually accessible to any person (either through a home cable package or at a local sports bar).



Baseball was popular before Ruth. Once he came along though, and did things a different way, the interest shot through the roof. Suddenly everyone, even those were knew nothing about the game, wanted to come to the ballpark. Everyone could understand and appreciate the beauty of a long homer, and before long, those casual fans became interested in other aspects of the game. They became true fans. Also, barnstorming was huge back then, and helped to spread the game. Train stations all along the way would be packed with screaming fans who had only read about these players. Small towns called for these days to be a holiday; dads got the day off from work and kids got out of school. It was a huge event.

We will never see that type of buzz and frenzy surrounding the game, because we've become numb to it now. There's nothing new we can be shown. Baseball has tried to bring back some of it by gearing the game toward offense, and getting the casual fan into the ballyard. Which has worked to a degree, in part because of the amusement style ballparks. Overall though, we have so many other things to be interested in. Whether its football, basketball, UFC, video games, you name it.

[letsgocubbies]

Actually baseball could regain dominance in a few years; the NFL may hold out in 2008. That's wgat hurt baseball for many years if not to this day. Really its kind of tiring of athletes complain they are making 5 million instead of 6 million.

[Dodger Green]

Baseball isn't dying - that's just ridiculous.

If people want to cite anectodal evidence, that's all well and good, but I'll relay on opposite story. I just turned 21, so I'm on the latter end of my youth, and I can tell you all throughout HS and college my friends and I love baseball. It's pervasive in Americans culture. Sure, we love football too, and I won't say that baseball is more popular, but to think kids don't care about baseball is absurd, and adults have been saying this for a century now.

I remember a quote by Cap Anson (or someone of his stature and epoch) who noted that kids don't take the time to learn the game anymore and that they don't appreciate it like they used to. This was 1885 or something.

Baseball's fine.

[Francoeurstein]

From a kids point of view I think baseball is dying. Everybody in school only talks about football, therefore I get considered a geek. Everybody calls me a baseball nerd and whatnot. But in the baseball world ( my park )I'm the most popular kid no contest. I have nothing against football I just think it is eating up baseball.

[Brian McKenna]

From a kids point of view I think baseball is dying. Everybody in school only talks about football, therefore I get considered a geek. Everybody calls me a baseball nerd and whatnot. But in the baseball world ( my park )I'm the most popular kid no contest. I have nothing against football I just think it is eating up baseball.

you just continue to be that geek - football is fun to watch but fleeting - no one cares about it outside the season and they surely don't care what happened before the previous sunday during the season - the study of baseball lasts a lifetime and you'll gain more satisfaction from it than 100 football fans ever will

[Yankee Legend]

I can explain the reason why some kids are losing interest in baseball. The fact is baseball is a relatively slower paced sport than football, basketball and hockey. So kinds might find those long waits between every pitch and constant balls and fouls to be the reason why baseball is so dull and boring. In football, the players have about 20 seconds to make a play. Same with basketball. In baseball, players take their time.

But im talking about kids actually playing the game. I think that their is no decrease in the popularity of the game. take new york for example. there are more die hard mets and yankees fans than there are die hard jets and giants fans. or in new england where as successful as the patriots are their fanbase is no comparison to red sox nation. but i agree that the popularity is low in southern states like texas and florida because not only the NFL but college football is huge there. Same goes for Toronto and Montreal where hockey is very dominant there but thats understandable because baseball is America's sport whereas hockey is Canada's sport.

On another note, i want to say that although we have a passion for baseball we should also respect the fans of other sports and understand that other sports have a right to advertise themselves as well.

[Senior skittles]

I dont know haw u can call it a dying sport with superstars like A ROD and albert the great........

[jpenrod]

Oh, and to say that sold tickets instead of actual attendance is a wrong way to account attendance is a simple way out. Sold tickets with a smaller attendance can be blamed on many different things.

Such as weather

Insane amounts of tickets sold to brokers

or

maybe there is a real interest in baseball. Sometimes coincidence is just that, coincidence.:gt

For the record I never said this was a right or wrong way to count attendance, I simply stated that it is one factor that does affect attendence record . If in 1992 They count attendance at Ballpark A only based on gate attendence and then in 1993 they count tickets sold as attendence I would suspect you would see an increase in attendence regardless of anyother factor.

The number of teams and larger ballparks is of course a major influence in the increase in attendence, but to compare straight attendence in 2005 to 1925 and say that baseball is more popular today simply because attendence is up is ludicrous. I believe that as a whole baseball is less popular today insociety than it was in say the 40's and 50' simply because there is so much more to occupy peoples time. Just my opinion.

[KingJ]

American Football (NFL) has taken over

The NFL has pretty much been in/on pace to control since the 70s with MLB close behind. This is mainly because they only play 8 home games instead of 81 so fans are more inclined to buy tickets than say there will be other chances to see them this season AND their stadiums are bigger (70-90,000 seats) compared to ballparks (35-50,000 seats). As for TV numbers, NFL carries all the games on all the major networks (FOX, CBS, ABC/ESPN, and next year NBC) while MLB games are just occasionally on FOX, ESPN, and a local station so the ratings in football are higher because of the national audience.


Now, if we lose market to the NHL, we'll be a dying sport. :D

[ReignInBlood]

I can't tell you how many games I've attended at Jacobs Field where the park is park is full and yet hardly anyone around me was actually watching the game or seemed to actually know much about baseball.

It's the same with every sport, in Super Bowl parties, everyone's rooting for a team right? But do they actually know anything about the team? I don't think so.

[YOUgodofwalks]

Football has a different popularity than baseball. It has a bigger TV flair and made for casual fans. Baseball on the other hand lends itself much better to more hardcore fans.

When you only play 16 games plus playoffs, fans want to go and watch more because they think "every game counts". the mentality is that in baseball that they play so many games, what does it matter if I miss one, two, five, half the season... Then playoffs are the same way, single game elimination vs a series. its made for TV popularity. Then of course the Super Bowl, one big fight for glory, winner takes all, all the championship hype concentrated into one day, whereas baseball spreads it out over a week or more. not quite the same and not as easy for casual fans to keep up with everyone.

Both are popular, neither are "dying", and above all, every sports league is one big business, and the bottom line, they are both making money, very good money.

[BeatEmBucs]

Of course a Montreal fan is going to believe Baseball is dying. Loria and Selig have done so much to kill baseball in Montreal, I'm surprised there's still fans left. The TV ratings have hurt because of the shorter attention span if society as a whole, as well as the late stating times on the East for games. Maybe they've had games start at 8:15-8:40 for the sake of the West Coast audience, but that didn't seem to matter much when all World Series games were played in the afternoon. They should have at least 1 World Series game between 1-4 start in the afternoon, and maybe another scheduled in game 5 or 6. I also don't like the idea of FOX doing "regional coverage" for playoff games. At least when CBS had the baseball package you got to see all NLCS and ALCS games in their entirety. Of course that's more difficult with the division series, but of course ESPN does a good job in the games they cover (sure beats poker) Baseball hasn't done a real good job of marketing themselves as a whole, and I believe some of the blame should go to Bud on that. Remember, baseball must be a great game to survive the fools that run it.

[Bluesteve32]

As that happened, tv ratings went down.

Part of that is the oversaturation of the game on TV. In the "old days" we recieved one national game on Saturday and one on some Monday nights.

Locally, teams would televise only select number of games a year nad some teams would rarely or never televise home games. Now teams are televising as many as 150 or more of their games and a televised game is not as "special" anymore.

Back in the 1960s, teams rarely made the 2 million mark, and now several teams make well into the 3 million mark and a couple of teams are approaching 4 million in attendance. Baseball attendace is up and continuing to rise even if fewer kids are actually playing the game.

Football, on the other hand, is a weekly event and played only on weekends. Also high school football, being played on Friday nights, tends to be the local social event for some dozen weeks in the fall for many communities and baseball just is not that type of game since it is like a giant chessboard and the game itself seems to plod along at times, and those with the untrained eye, seems to be boring.

Let's face it, most ofthe world riots over a game that can often end in a 0-0 tie after playing over 90 minutes and is very vague on its rules. Diffren't strokes for differn't folks.

[Jake83]

The problem with all American sports is they lack the excitement and passion of European football and rugby. Watching sports in the U.S. and Canada is a leisure activity which makes fans very passive and not apart of the game. At certain times and certain cities fans became an active apart of the game but it is very rare. The main problem is the athletes not the sports are sold to the consumer and you will never have a player like Jordan to market basketball again and a player like Gretzey to market hockey again.

[Jake83]

Let's face it, most ofthe world riots over a game that can often end in a 0-0 tie after playing over 90 minutes and is very vague on its rules. Diffren't strokes for differn't folks.


You would be pissed also if the other clubs supporters set across from you singing about how your city or neighborhood is a shitehole, calling your mother a slag ,singing how your father is in the nick and saying they will kick your face in the entire match

[Bluesteve32]

You would be pissed also if the other clubs supporters set across from you singing about how your city or neighborhood is a shitehole, calling your mother a slag ,singing how your father is in the nick and saying they will kick your face in the entire match

Ever been to a college football rivalry game? Similar stuff happens, but no one riots and most of the fights that actually occur are quelled right away. Of course we are all familiar with Dutch and British hulliganism and what happens in some Latin American countries.

Its a game, deal with it, part of the fun of being in the even and don't take it that seroisly as far as the name calling. Get over it and grow up soccer fans. Let's face it, Americans are a much more mature bunch of sports fans and demand more sophisticated sports of which soccer is not.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Now, if we lose market to the NHL, we'll be a dying sport. :D

What's wrong with that?:D

[Jake83]

Ever been to a college football rivalry game? Similar stuff happens, but no one riots and most of the fights that actually occur are quelled right away. Of course we are all familiar with Dutch and British hulliganism and what happens in some Latin American countries.

Its a game, deal with it, part of the fun of being in the even and don't take it that seroisly as far as the name calling. Get over it and grow up soccer fans. Let's face it, Americans are a much more mature bunch of sports fans and demand more sophisticated sports of which soccer is not.


Steve for the passion college football brings a USC-UCLA game at the Rose Bowl is nothing like a Tottenham-Arsenal( Two of London's biggest clubs) match at Highbury.

[Jake83]

Americans are a much more mature bunch of sports fans and demand more sophisticated sports of which soccer is not.


Americans look at sports as entertainment a lesiure activity to not be apart of the contest but rather watch. Europeans look at sports as a contest in which they can decide by singing on their teams.

Look at basketball for a example in Europe the supporters sing,carry banners and shoot off missles in the arena.

[The Big C]

And I think we are better off without that kind of bull. Did you ever see that clip of the soccer goalie getting hit with a road flare that some morons were shooting off a bunch of over there? That is ridiculous, and it has no place in civilized society.

As to the original post, you'll please excuse me if I don't take anecdotal evidence about the current baseball climate in Montreal and 1975 Dallas as hard evidence that baseball is dying. Don't be stupid. It's monopoly certainly has ended in America, but internationally it is stronger than it ever has been before. Obviously soccer is more popular world wide, but baseball is in no way dying. Please.

As for hockey, I can't stand to watch that crap. You say its fast paced, but they hardly ever score. A shot on goal isn't nearly as exciting as a double off the wall, and a great save is not exciting at all compared to a leaping catch to rob a home run. If they had more offense, and less checking, maybe it would be more interesting, but then they lose their only advantage over soccer, the high degree of player violence. It just sucks.

Baseball>College Football>College Basketball>NBA>Poker>NFL>Nascar>NHL>Soccer

And for some of the old timers that may say that the attention span of youths isn't what it used to be and that is hurting the popularity of baseball, I have an exceptionally low attention span, but I enjoy a good pitchers duel. I find a sloppy game of football, or a defensive struggle in basketball to be much more boring. Defense and good pitching in baseball can be great to watch. And I'm one of those instant gratification types that spends most of my time playing video games and watching TV. I don't think youthful attention has much to do with it, I just see a lot more options for todays youth in terms of entertainment.

[Bluesteve32]

Americans look at sports as entertainment a lesiure activity to not be apart of the contest but rather watch. Europeans look at sports as a contest in which they can decide by singing on their teams.

Look at basketball for a example in Europe the supporters sing,carry banners and shoot off missles in the arena.

And I thought Europe was more civilized that us colonials.

I would say the passion is in our college and high school sports, and in some cases our pro sports, I think our culture has rightly put sports in a better perspective. However, after some teams win a championship, they has been a few cases of rioting, but nothing like the hulliganism we see in some pther parts of the world after a 0-0 tie game in a World Cup match.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

And I think we are better off without that kind of bull. Did you ever see that clip of the soccer goalie getting hit with a road flare that some morons were shooting off a bunch of over there? That is ridiculous, and it has no place in civilized society.

As to the original post, you'll please excuse me if I don't take anecdotal evidence about the current baseball climate in Montreal and 1975 Dallas as hard evidence that baseball is dying. Don't be stupid. It's monopoly certainly has ended in America, but internationally it is stronger than it ever has been before. Obviously soccer is more popular world wide, but baseball is in no way dying. Please.

As for hockey, I can't stand to watch that crap. You say its fast paced, but they hardly ever score. A shot on goal isn't nearly as exciting as a double off the wall, and a great save is not exciting at all compared to a leaping catch to rob a home run. If they had more offense, and less checking, maybe it would be more interesting, but then they lose their only advantage over soccer, the high degree of player violence. It just sucks.

Baseball>College Football>College Basketball>NBA>Poker>NFL>Nascar>NHL>Soccer

And for some of the old timers that may say that the attention span of youths isn't what it used to be and that is hurting the popularity of baseball, I have an exceptionally low attention span, but I enjoy a good pitchers duel. I find a sloppy game of football, or a defensive struggle in basketball to be much more boring. Defense and good pitching in baseball can be great to watch. And I'm one of those instant gratification types that spends most of my time playing video games and watching TV. I don't think youthful attention has much to do with it, I just see a lot more options for todays youth in terms of entertainment.

I disagree, I am a hockey fan, this is your interpretation of how sports "rank".

[wogdoggy]

the older you get the MORE you appreciate the game of baseball.All the little nuiances involed in baseball make it a sport like no other.set up inside outside? what pitch to throw? what are batters tendincies? pinch run pinch hit pull pitcher outfield in etc etc...NO SPORT can compare.Football to me is a 4 second jailbreak.Maximum athleticism for 4 seconds,,not much decision making....and to be honest with you..when the cell phone came out of the goal post and the sharpie came out of their socks...and the robot dance jig after every sack..its just getting to be TOOOO much..Sports role models are becommming far less common...society and baseball have great similarities.everybody today plays for the name on the back of their jersey not the front.Its a whole different generation of me first and why me people.:(

[Captain Cold Nose]

I disagree, I am a hockey fan, this is your interpretation of how sports "rank".
You need to emphasize the word your more, wilky. To make sure he realizes his opinion is his own, and that's it.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

You need to emphasize the word your more, wilky. To make sure he realizes his opinion is his own, and that's it.
Fine.

This is your interpretation of how sports "rank", others may have different opinions.

That better?:D

[Captain Cold Nose]

Fine.

This is your interpretation of how sports "rank", others may have different opinions.

That better?:D
Splendid. Splendid.

[Mike D.]

Agreed that people are putting WAAAY too much emphisis on opions and limited perceptions...not facts. Just because you like College Football more, or your kids don't like baseball, doesn't mean baseball's dying.

[wogdoggy]

if anything is dying its hockey...talk about a boring deal....:clapping

[Captain Cold Nose]

if anything is dying its hockey...talk about a boring deal....:clapping
You just don't understand it. :clapping

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Agreed that people are putting WAAAY too much emphisis on opions and limited perceptions...not facts. Just because you like College Football more, or your kids don't like baseball, doesn't mean baseball's dying.
1) I do not like College Football
2) I have no kids
3) I have the right to emphasis anything I want!:clapping

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

if anything is dying its hockey...talk about a boring deal....:clapping
I agree with Cap'n here, you just don't understand it!:D

[Lipsander]

Us old guys like to complain that the new baseball fans don't enjoy the game the "right way". We live in time where kids live for entertainment. They are not going to just sit there for fours hours to watch game. I go to a lot of Giants games. They have all sorts of entertainment. In left field they have a batting cage for kids during the game. Baseball is the kind of game where you can do that. Even I will take a walk around the entire park as the game goes on. Is that so wrong? I do keep my eye on the game though and I wouldn't take the walk when Barry is up! But even in the good old days attendence was much lower. Terms like the Browns and A'S would draw like 400,000 people for the season. By today's standards that's awful.

I am a younger guy and I enjoy everything from the bunt to homerun, from the first pitch to the last pitch. As for hockey, I put it in the same group of sports as soccer and rugby, the sports I can't stand.

[Mike D.]

1) I do not like College Football
2) I have no kids
3) I have the right to emphasis anything I want!:clapping

I'm totally with ya on both #1 and #2. :D

And on #3, as well...everyone has the right to say what they want, but the rest of us have the right to respectfully disagree. ;)

Wasn't talking about you specifically, but a few people who "ranked" the sports, basically by which ones they like, and stuff like that. Or people who say "my friends kids don't like baseball".

To me, statements like that are like if I, having a 16 brohter who enjoys restoring antique tractors much more than he likes baseball and football, were to say that baseball and football are dying, all the kids these days are more into restoring antique tractors. Sure, I know ONE that does, but that doesn't mean all, most, or even SOME others do. :cool:

[runningshoes]

I agree with Cap'n here, you just don't understand it!:D

I remember when Fox? put a streak behind the puck so Americans could keep track of it moving over the ice.....I used to get a belly laugh.

[wogdoggy]

I agree with Cap'n here, you just don't understand it!
__________________
i understand how just a lil tap of the puck and you have to skate all the way back to get it..NOBODY really cares about hockey in the states,nobody cares about watching soccer either...yeah their unathletic kids might play soccer but thats only cause they cant swing a bat.lol..when was the last time u watched soccer on tv or hockey...gag me.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Everyone is entitled to like or dislike anything they want. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's worthless. Nobody here actually knows everybody to make sweeping statements about everybody.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

I agree with Cap'n here, you just don't understand it!

did you emphasise me by copying exactly what I said?;)

[Mike D.]

I remember when Fox? put a streak behind the puck so Americans could keep track of it moving over the ice.....I used to get a belly laugh.

Ah yes...the imfamous "glowing puck". Man that was annoying and freaky!

[wogdoggy]

theres nothing to understand about hockey...but you can SURELY understand why its dying..great example the blackhawks..nobody comes to those games at all..the owners are greedy and honestly the bulls can barely get a crowd let alone the hawks...i give the nhl 2 years....

[Captain Cold Nose]

theres nothing to understand about hockey...but you can SURELY understand why its dying..great example the blackhawks..nobody comes to those games at all..the owners are greedy and honestly the bulls can barely get a crowd let alone the hawks...i give the nhl 2 years....
Good for you.
Fortunately, what is actually happening, with the TV contract they have that prevents lavish overspending, the satellite radio contract, and the rule changes that have reopened the game, interest is on the rise, and the NHL is heading in the right direction as a whole, for whatever that is worth.
But that's neither here nor there in this baseball forum. Sorry, wilky, I'll back you about hockey, but I can't back you on this thread.

[wogdoggy]

back him on hockey? look at the attendance..its a dead deal dying more.It has zero appeal to many ethnic groups other than caucasians..so how can it expand? its dead.2 years maybe 3:clapping

[Captain Cold Nose]

back him on hockey? look at the attendance..its a dead deal dying more.It has zero appeal to many ethnic groups other than caucasians..so how can it expand? its dead.2 years maybe 3:clapping
Again, dogwoggy. Good for you. :clapping

[wogdoggy]

and right back atcha.:crazy

[trosmok]

....have been greatly exaggerated. Doomsayers predicted baseball could not survive WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, integration, night games, the age of television, the sixties, free agency, expansion, division play, the wild card, interleague games, the DH, and George Steinbrenner, but it has managed to do quite nicely in spite of all these obstacles. Guess we'll just have to see if it can survive the remainder of puppet Selig's tenure, and then we'll be right on track to regain the predominant role in sports popularity.:clapping

[wogdoggy]

or we can just fall back on ho:clapping ckey and soccer.lol

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

theres nothing to understand about hockey...but you can SURELY understand why its dying..great example the blackhawks..nobody comes to those games at all..the owners are greedy and honestly the bulls can barely get a crowd let alone the hawks...i give the nhl 2 years....
1)That's YOUR OPINION, hockey is my favorite sprt (with baseball close behind), there's more to hockey than you think.
2)Under the new NHL CBA, hockey's here at least 6 more years.
3)The Blackhawks have always been a crappy team but still there, take the Canadiens for example they have sold out :D all season long, their revenue is through the roof and it does look like hockey will EVER be dead in Montreal

4)You all criticized wilkerson_rulz for picking MOntreal as an example for this thread, well, you're wrong, hockey is as alive as ever!

P.S Captain Cold Nose, no problem, you're right about everything you said.

[Captain Cold Nose]

or we can just fall back on ho:clapping ckey and soccer.lol
Way to post such a well-reasoned intellectual post, guy. :clapping

[The Big C]

My little ranking thing was just the order of what I like, sorry I didn't mention that, I just got lazy.

4)You all criticized wilkerson_rulz for picking MOntreal as an example for this thread, well, you're wrong, hockey is as alive as ever!

And you were still wrong to pick Montreal. Why you can't see that I have no idea. The status of hockey in Montreal has less than nothing to do with the status of baseball everywhere else. You need to get your head checked out I think.

Hockey will probably never die out entirely, it is still an Olympic sport, afterall. Unless Canada and Russia blow each other up over the outcome of the gold metal match, it will probably always be around in some form or fashion. But it is not very popular at all in America, and the lockout didn't help, even though some fans are coming back. But this thread was supposed to be about baseball, so all this crap about hockey is neither here nor there.

But thats just MY opinion.

[Captain Cold Nose]

My little ranking thing was just the order of what I like, sorry I didn't mention that, I just got lazy.



And you were still wrong to pick Montreal. Why you can't see that I have no idea. The status of hockey in Montreal has less than nothing to do with the status of baseball everywhere else. You need to get your head checked out I think.

Hockey will probably never die out entirely, it is still an Olympic sport, afterall. Unless Canada and Russia blow each other up over the outcome of the gold metal match, it will probably always be around in some form or fashion. But it is not very popular at all in America, and the lockout didn't help, even though some fans are coming back. But this thread was supposed to be about baseball, so all this crap about hockey is neither here nor there.

But thats just MY opinion.
While telling someone to get their head checked is not good protocol on this site, as big of a hockey fan as I am, I can't say I disagree with you overall. Hockey is hurting, and the NHL is just starting their recovery process after pretty much hitting bottom.
And, I second your last line. Enough about hockey.
It's really too bad the WBC hasn't developed as planned, with so many players dropping out and the whole Cuba near-fiasco. It would have been a big chance to show up the naysayers. Baseball won't be hurt if the tourney isn't so riveting, but a successful world showcase only could have helped interest develop outside this hemisphere.

[TheKingofKings]

Can we just stop fighting , please , for the love of the game !!!

[Imapotato]

a few points:

1. Football is a more "exciting" game to watch than baseball. there is something going on every play of a football game and "potential for a big play at anytime" by comparison Basbeall is more of a marathon where things seem to move at a slower pace. In todays society of video games and ADD many find baseball "boring"

2. Society is a fast paced lifestyle now with cell phones, blackberrys and the like people are on the go more now than they have ever been leaving them little time to give up 3 hours everynight to watch a baseball game making it difficult for the "casual fan to keep up with teams and standings and what not, and if they can not follow it is 2 minutes they are not interested. I realize this is a stereotype, but from my experience it is the norm. People are more willing to give up 3 hours of theire week to relax and watch their favorit e football team play every game for 16 weeks than they are to give up 3 hours everynight for 30 weeks to watch what they consider a slow game anyway.

3. Baseball's efforts to make the games more fan friendly are self defeating. They say that the average fan wants mor offense to make the game more interesting, the only problem is more offense ussually means longer games. The average fan does not want a longer game but a shorter game, but give the average fan a shorter game (a 1-0 2 hit pithching gem) and they say it is too boring. Personally I find pitching duels much more interesting because every hit counts and any single play can decide a game. Offensive slugfests bore me because it is ussually poorly played baseball, but then I am not what many would consider an average fan.

Personally Baseball tops my list of sports to follow, but most of my friends do not get it and despite my best efforts to explain the details of the game they just are not interested in sitting still long enough to get it. Football games are much more of a social event, I can not tell you how many times I have met up with a group of friends to watch a football game and it turns out I am the only one really watching everyone else is half watching the game and half socializing, they never feel they miss anything. just my $0.02


You are living in my brain, bring back the deadball!

[wamby]

It's the same with every sport, in Super Bowl parties, everyone's rooting for a team right? But do they actually know anything about the team? I don't think so.

At a party, it's one thing, but I think if you go to the ballpark you should watch the game. That should be the most important activity going on there.

[Jake83]

Hockey in the US is a regional sport (Will always be)so unless you are from New England or Minnesota you most likely will not find the sport entertaining.

[Erik Bedard]

Hockey? Don't follow it, it's not covered much here. (although I always scan the news for stories on my Flames!)
Soccer? Since when is soccer a major sport?
Football? Overhyped, too regional. Not bad, though.
Basketball? Don't know who's winning, except the Pistons.
College football? Like USC; don't care about anyone else.
College basketball? What?
College baseball? Does that even exist?
Baseball? Go Sox!

[runningshoes]

Hockey? Don't follow it, it's not covered much here. (although I always scan the news for stories on my Flames!)
Soccer? Since when is soccer a major sport?
Football? Overhyped, too regional. Not bad, though.
Basketball? Don't know who's winning, except the Pistons.
College football? Like USC; don't care about anyone else.
College basketball? What?
College baseball? Does that even exist?
Baseball? Go Sox!

Where's here?

[Bluesteve32]

I disagree, I am a hockey fan, this is your interpretation of how sports "rank".

I agree with you, I'd put hockey above any type of basketball, and that is coming from a third-generation native So Cal. ;)

[Bluesteve32]

Hockey in the US is a regional sport (Will always be)so unless you are from New England or Minnesota you most likely will not find the sport entertaining.

Not necessarily true, see previous post coming from a Kings fan going back to before Rogie Vachon was traded to the Kings. ;)

[Bluesteve32]

back him on hockey? look at the attendance..its a dead deal dying more.It has zero appeal to many ethnic groups other than caucasians..so how can it expand? its dead.2 years maybe 3:clapping

You realize that caucasians are still over 70% of the population in the US. If I have a product that appeals to 70% of anything, chances are that product will be successful and profitable. The NHL expanded too much and too quickly into the sunbelt, but that does not mean that there is a market for the sport. The players will not enjoy the money that some of the other sports have, but it will still be more popular that "communist kickball" (soccer) in this country.

[wogdoggy]

You realize that caucasians are still over 70% of the population in the US. If I have a product that appeals to 70% of anything, chances are that product will be successful and profitable. The NHL expanded too much and too quickly into the sunbelt, but that does not mean that there is a market for the sport. The players will not enjoy the money that some of the other sports have, but it will still be more popular that "communist kickball" (soccer) in this country.



70 percent in a shrinking market,put in warm wether states.etc and its a trend that is shrinking.Thats why the interest in international soccer internaional baseball etc.it includes everyone.Hockey simply does not.

[Captain Cold Nose]

You realize that caucasians are still over 70% of the population in the US. If I have a product that appeals to 70% of anything, chances are that product will be successful and profitable. The NHL expanded too much and too quickly into the sunbelt, but that does not mean that there is a market for the sport. The players will not enjoy the money that some of the other sports have, but it will still be more popular that "communist kickball" (soccer) in this country.



70 percent in a shrinking market,put in warm wether states.etc and its a trend that is shrinking.Thats why the interest in international soccer internaional baseball etc.it includes everyone.Hockey simply does not.
Plain and simple, hockey is a niche sport. Some like it, some don't. A lot of the reasons why baseball doesn't seem as popular to play for kids as football or basketball, such as lack of equipment and facilities, are even stronger for hockey.
Hockey will always have its core, and it will always do well in a Northern climate throughout the world that has taken to it on its own, not having it "introduced". But there really is no comparison in terms of success or viability. I'm being realistic. I love hockey, it's a very close second to baseball, having grown up in a very strong hockey state in Michigan, and despite what you think, it's not going anywhere, but it's never going to honestly rival the other three team sports in a professional setting.
It doesn't have to.

[Mike D.]

It's really too bad the WBC hasn't developed as planned, with so many players dropping out and the whole Cuba near-fiasco. It would have been a big chance to show up the naysayers. Baseball won't be hurt if the tourney isn't so riveting, but a successful world showcase only could have helped interest develop outside this hemisphere.

I hope people give the WBC a chance to grow and come into it's own. It's a HUGE undertaking, and this is the first year. Players and owners in MLB are wary, but I think when the thrill of playing in front of nationalistic fans and representing their countries really hit the player, you'll see more guys playing in future years. And if it helps baseball sell itself abroad, then the owners will get on board, too.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Has anyone agreed with what I wrote on post#1?

[Brannu]

Well, if I could add my two cents in between all of the snarling, barking and pontification, I must start by saying that baseball is the GREATEST sport known to man. Opinion? Yes. Yet it is a personal fact of my existence and something that will never die, as long as it lives deeply in my soul - and the hearts and minds of those of us who can't get enough of it.

Why has baseball become so unpopular? Well, for all of the reasons that many of you have stated previously, but, I will add a different perspective. Tell me what you think. As I think about thinking (insanity? yes), I think :crazy that one of the reasons why baseball has been pushed to the periphery of American sports fans is because, dare I say it again - baseball is a THINKING man's game. The American masses are so used to stuffing their faces with fast food, while massaging the remote controls in their hand, without the slightest desire for higher understanDing and reasoning, that entertaining their feeble minds with mindless garbage has dulled their ability to THINK clearly and rationally. How do you come to enjoy a baseball game when you can't possibly understand nor think about what is going on behind the scenes. Baseball is a behind the scenes type of game. You can't just watch the pitcher throw the ball into the catchers mit, passed the swinging bat of an elite hitter and say that there is NOTHING going on. In that one instance there is a whole bunch that is happening, but people don't have the thinking skills, nor the knowledge of the beauty of the game to truly appreciate its greatness.

Everyone on the field is thinking in baseball. THAT is a beautiful thing. For me that is much more exciting than a bunch of guys running inside dash lines and yard markers or 10 guys skating on ice surrounding a little black circle. Sure those things can be entertaining, captivate your attention and get you all wrapped up into what's going on. Yet, that is the simple minded way out; to sit and be entertained. There is much more intellectual involvement in a pitchers shutout than there is in a football score that runs 35-7 .. or a hockey match that runs 1-0. Can those games be exciting? For sure. But, if people would like to exercise their thinking machine along with their emotions and get wrapped up in the "head game" ... they would find that baseball is far more superior than those other mindless activities. :)

[VTSoxFan]

*high-fives Brannu*

Right on, my friend. One can not simply watch baseball; one must be intellectually engaged. Follow what the count is, follow the communication between pitcher and catcher. Follow the batter's tendencies against this pitcher. Follow the effect the weather and the park have on how the ball will fly. Follow how the fielders are set up to react to the hit, should the batter make contact.

One of the most thrilling and suspenseful things I know of in a game is the duel between the pitcher and a tough hitter. Foul after foul, the pitcher expending his entire arsenal, trying to fool the batter, and the batter not being fooled, but not being able to best the pitcher. Foul after foul.... (think Loaiza v. Ortiz, '04 ALCS Game 5, bottom of the 14th inning... a ten-pitch at- bat, do or die...)

Another great moment of suspense I remember was a couple of years ago -- maybe '02 or '03, when Pedro was pitching to Bernie Williams, and each was trying to unsettle the other. Pedro would shake off the signs, then look in and pause in the set position for many seconds, and Bernie asked time and stepped out, and then when he was ready Pedro stepped off, and back and forth, feinting and dueling...though technically, nothing was happening, EVERYTHING was happening while those two men tried to mentally best each other before the ball was even thrown. The suspense was crackling in the park that day.

So when I hear people say baseball is boring, or it's too slow, and there should be a clock, or a limit on the number of foul balls one should be allowed to hit (!)... I just have a feeling that the people who say this are not engaged, not fully aware of the tension inherent in even the "emptiest" parts of The Game. Baseball is a very human game. Life has its dull parts too, but who wants to rush it to its end?

I'd rather watch a 4 hour dull ballgame than a 2-hour noisy fast-paced, frenetic, dizzy-making basketball game. or a grunting violent football game. Or a car race. (I'd rather go sit on a stump in a swamp than watch a car race.)

[The Big C]

While I agree that baseball is the most intellectual, there is certainly more enjoyment to be had in football by thinking and trying to understand. While I can't explain what I mean as eloquently as VTSoxFan, I will try to explain it in some fashion.

Some people may see football and think to themselves, "That's just wrestling with a ball thrown in", but if you really try to understand why a certain play works in a given circumstance, or why a play failed, you can get more out of it than that. It can sometimes be like a chess match between one team's play caller and the opposing team's defensive coordinator. There is most definitely strategy involved in football, and as I get older, that is becoming one of my favorite parts about watching football. That is part of why I believe football is so successful. It is attractive to the masses with its fast pace and violent collisions. But once you are a fan, you can appreciate some of the strategy invovled.

That being said baseball is just better. ;)

[VTSoxFan]

:)

I know there's a tremendous amount of strategy involved in football, as there is in any sport. It just never has caught my fancy, which is why I do see football as just grunting and violence, and a diehard football fan will see baseball as a bunch of guys standing around spitting and scratching themselves. It's all in one's perception of the game.

[Brannu]

:) It's all in one's perception of the game.

True indeed. This is why I believe baseball is flailing in comparison to other "high activity" sports. If you percieve the game as dull and boring because you don't have the knowledge of the game or are not versed in what the pitchers, coaches etc. are actually doing throughout the course of a game, then it would definitely appear dull and boring. Yet, that perception is a false, or better yet, limited view of what is truly going on.

Casual fans that don't understand the breadth and scope of baseball would look at a first pitch, called strike, as having no real impact on the course of the game. Yet, a serious fan that has knowledge of the importance of the first pitched, called strike - could get annoyed or excited depending on who he/she is rooting for. Especially if it is the bottom of the 9th and the game is on the line.

Your examples were very good ones, by the way. ;)

[wamby]

True indeed. This is why I believe baseball is flailing in comparison to other "high activity" sports. If you percieve the game as dull and boring because you don't have the knowledge of the game or are not versed in what the pitchers, coaches etc. are actually doing throughout the course of a game, then it would definitely appear dull and boring. Yet, that perception is a false, or better yet, limited view of what is truly going on.

Casual fans that don't understand the breadth and scope of baseball would look at a first pitch, called strike, as having no real impact on the course of the game. Yet, a serious fan that has knowledge of the importance of the first pitched, called strike - could get annoyed or excited depending on who he/she is rooting for. Especially if it is the bottom of the 9th and the game is on the line.

Your examples were very good ones, by the way. ;)

I always laugh when people in the crowd boo a pick-off throw to first or the pitcher stepping off the rubber. You always hear 'the pitcher has no chance to get him'. and we sit there thinking 'that's not really the point of this'. Maybe clubs should point out some of these subleties between innings on the Jumbotron and put that thing to good use for a change.

[Ontarioguy]

True indeed. This is why I believe baseball is flailing in comparison to other "high activity" sports. If you percieve the game as dull and boring because you don't have the knowledge of the game or are not versed in what the pitchers, coaches etc. are actually doing throughout the course of a game, then it would definitely appear dull and boring. Yet, that perception is a false, or better yet, limited view of what is truly going on.

Casual fans that don't understand the breadth and scope of baseball would look at a first pitch, called strike, as having no real impact on the course of the game. Yet, a serious fan that has knowledge of the importance of the first pitched, called strike - could get annoyed or excited depending on who he/she is rooting for. Especially if it is the bottom of the 9th and the game is on the line.

Your examples were very good ones, by the way. ;)

Your point about the hidden complexities of the game is a very good one.

I think that these complexities make it difficult for new fans to pick up the game. It's alot tougher to learn, especially if you don't come from a baseball family. Sitting next to the old man is a valuable resource when you're young. He can tell you about the in's and out's of the game. If you don't have that help, you might never get hooked. My old man doesn't really know much about Baseball. I've had to scratch and claw for every bit of 'advanced' knowledge. All those people who's parent could teach them these things got a head start. Meanwhile I'm trying to catch up. (This board helps so much)

So really, the game within the game, is extremely difficult to learn for many reasons.

[runningshoes]

Hockey would survive quite well if it was played professionally only in Canada. The salaries wouldn't be as high, obviously, but the fan base would always be there making salaries high enough that the players could live quite comfortably.

[VTSoxFan]

Your point about the hidden complexities of the game is a very good one.

I think that these complexities make it difficult for new fans to pick up the game. ....

I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago while watching curling -- yes, curling, the silly looking game where one person slides a big rock down the ice and the teammates scrabble along, sweeping in front of it with what look like push-brooms. I've watched some curling, and read about it, and I know that it is an intricate and highly strategic game -- chess on ice -- in which each team must try to see three or four moves ahead, to anticipate and block or counter thier opponents' move. But.... while it might be fascinating to play, and have a long and involved history, it's not much to watch unless you're really into it.

I am sure the same is true about baseball (or any sport, when you come down to it). But baseball is not sexy and loud, and it doesn't appeal to the strange visceral rush that speed and violence brings to so many people. I get a thrill from a flashy, near-impossible double play, not from players smashing each other into the ground. I also get a thrill from a tense pitching duel (Red Sox v White Sox, September '03, Burkett v. Colon... Colon allowed only 2 hits in a complete game -- but both were home runs; Burkett finessed his way through the game, allowing hits and walks but miraculously only one run. That was a brilliant game.). Or the race -- the runner going full tilt, the ball flying in from the outfield -- which will get to the plate first?

I love baseball. It's the only sport I do love, the only sport I follow with any real interest.

[sandlot]

I think that if a person has had a chance to play a sport at any level, his/her appreciation of it increases proportionately to exposure. If you've ever tried to explain baseball to a person who's never played or seen it before, you'll know what I mean. Living abroad for many years, I've watched so much soccer that I've become a fan, but having never played it, my knowledge is superficial and I can only occasionally glimpse the game inside the game. The same goes for cricket, which I appreciate (I once learned how to read a cricket line score) but can't really dig into because I've never thrown nor attempted to hit a cricket ball. The relationship between exposure and popularity is a deepening problem for baseball: As fewer and fewer people have an opportunity to play the game, and those who do have the chance to play do so mainly at lower levels, the knowledge and passion for the game slides off. It's easier -- and in a pure sense of enjoyment, more fun -- to cheer for a home run than that it is, say, to watch Schilling deliberately throw ball four to Paul O'Neill in order to get a check-swing strike three. The homer doesn't requre much understanding and it's impressive to see. Same goes for a breakaway run or long bomb thrown in football. Anyone can be excited by action. But it takes another kind of appreciation to get caught up watching a baseball manager take a long stroll to the mound. I don't think someone needs to have to played baseball in order to love it, but it helps a lot.

[Myankee4life]

I think that in certain states baseball is still the #1 sport. Most of the back pages in the newspapers are baseball related stories ( except during NFL or NBA playoffs.) The MLB off-season is very covered in NY. The Yankees rule the town and the Mets are lovable underdogs. It doesn't help that the other teams are perennial losers. But baseball is very up and running in NY. This is the case in Boston and Chicago aswell. Historic basebal towns will always be baseball towns. Cities like NY, Philadelphia, Chicago, ST Louis, Boston etc...

[Jake83]

Not necessarily true, see previous post coming from a Kings fan going back to before Rogie Vachon was traded to the Kings. ;)


But true hockey fans in LA are few and far bewteen. Soccer is way more popular than hockey here.

[Jake83]

The players will not enjoy the money that some of the other sports have, but it will still be more popular that "communist kickball" (soccer) in this country.



That may not be true with the internet and the globalization of televison networks people in the US can follow European football as close as American sports. Anyone who will watch a English Primier League match without a bias endocentric view will accept it as a sport.

[Brannu]

Maybe clubs should point out some of these subleties between innings on the Jumbotron and put that thing to good use for a change.

You know, you might have said that very casually, but I think that is an excellent idea. Teaching the game in-between innings. What you pointed out about fans booing the pitchers throw over to first base is an excellent example. Yet, what it points out to me is how many unknowledgeable fans actually attend baseball games. The majority it appears. I suppose that casual fandom supports the game in a major way, but Major League Baseball should definitely be thinking of various ways to bring them up to par as fars as understanding the game in a deeper, more appreciative fashion.

hm.

Baseball tonight tries to do some information sharing. Yet, Baseball Tonight is also for the serious fan. Well, at least I would say that the majority of people that tune into Baseball Tonight are serious fans.

Maybe they could give lessons in the programs at the game. But, that is a very good thought that you have presented.

[wamby]

You know, you might have said that very casually, but I think that is an excellent idea. Teaching the game in-between innings. What you pointed out about fans booing the pitchers throw over to first base is an excellent example. Yet, what it points out to me is how many unknowledgeable fans actually attend baseball games. The majority it appears. I suppose that casual fandom supports the game in a major way, but Major League Baseball should definitely be thinking of various ways to bring them up to par as fars as understanding the game in a deeper, more appreciative fashion.

hm.

Baseball tonight tries to do some information sharing. Yet, Baseball Tonight is also for the serious fan. Well, at least I would say that the majority of people that tune into Baseball Tonight are serious fans.

Maybe they could give lessons in the programs at the game. But, that is a very good thought that you have presented.

That was not a casual thought I had. I think I thought of it around 1996 when it seemed like a majority of the people attending games at Jacobs Field seemed to have very little idea about what was going on down on the field. I almost would have been satisfied with a reminder not to stand and block peoles view during an inning. I went to a series at the Skydome once and was surprised that people there only moved around between innings.

Baseball Tonight is one of the few shows on ESPN that I can actually watch. The snarky 'humor' is kept to a minimum there. I've heard a few remarks there that made certain members of this forum howl and that can't be all bad.

[trosmok]

Has anyone agreed with what I wrote on post#1?

Not exactly. There is no doubt baseball has fallen ill with an easily recognizable malady, and you covered all the symptoms in your first post. There is a cure, and the disease is certainly not fatal. Just like a fever is merely the body's reaction to infection, but tells little about the underlying cause of the sickness, so are today's difficulties with our game showing some signs of irreversable decline. However, I still believe what I wrote (post #85) that in spite of seemingly deadly decay, the game we know and love will continue and thrive as long as there are diamonds, bats, balls, gloves, mounds, bases, and players. All of the rest of the stuff connected to MLB is just window dressing, but that ornamentation is what sells to the less astute humans seeking entertainment.

[jrh31584]

All I know about the state of baseball here, at least college baseball, is that for a game this weekend, there were 5800 people at a park with less than 4000 seats. However, in most of the South, baseball is probably behind football, especially college football, but still fairly strong nonetheless.