Women Ballplayers

[Gashouse6]

Should women be able to play competetive baseball (high school, college, ect.)?

[Brian McKenna]

there will be an awakening to female players - and it must to come from the court system and through the purse strings

i personally feel that male college sports is headed for trouble - whether it is 5-10-15-20 years i don't know - there is a great deal of corruption and favoritism (discrimination) - the hammer will eventually fall - in some sports college ball is a de facto minor leagues make billions of dollars - but in the name of amateur play there are a lot of shady practices - one day it will all be sorted out - through the courts and through the $$$ i guess

[SABR Steve]

What happens to the gals who can't make the grade with the guys. Suppose a couple of girls make the men's squad. The girls' team would be less competitive and the men's team would be about the same, assuming that the two gals would not play very much. You're left with a division of men/women and a division of all women. That'll lead to guys joining the all women's division via the courts again. That will open the door to non-starting guys joining the girls across the board, taking their starting positions: swimming, basketball, etc.

Sometimes what seems to be fair turns out to be unfair.

[KCGHOST]

That's exactly what we want, the courts telling how sports ought to be handled. I refer you to the "Futurama" episode when they crash land on Amazonia.

[Brian McKenna]

sorry - don't buy any segregationist philosphy - sounds like an age old argument claiming to have the best interest of those excluded at heart - doesn't take into account a gradual shift in the nature of things with the gaps being filled in along the way

[Iron Jaw]

Girls have tried out for male teams, and a few have actually made it over the years. But very few, and either the female athletes were exceptional or the male teams were simply "undermanned."

However, when a girl is allowed to play on a male HS baseball team, shouldn't males likewise be allowed to play for the HS girls softball team? Volleball team? What's fair is fair.

Of course, if that happened, sports like softball and volleyball, traditionally female sports at the HS level, would all of a sudden become dominated by male athletes, defeating the entire reason that Title IX was designed.

[WWJBD]

A quick review of my calendar indicates that is 2006. Women can vote, drive cars, join the Army, all kinds of stuff. I don't think baseball should be changed in anyway to accomodate women baseball players, but if they can play the same game by the same rules, I'm all for it. There is a girl that plays basketball on the boys varsity team at Saxony Lutheran in Cape Girardeau, Missouri. SL is a small parochial school that doesn't have a girls team, so she plays with the boys and has excelled. She is going to Vandy on a basketball scholarship.:clapping

[SABR Steve]

If there isn't a girls team then they should be able to play with the boys, if she can make the grade. If there is a girls team then she should play with the girls. That isn't segregationist philosphy, that's common sense. However, I would make an exception, for the sake of harmony, but only if a rule was put into place that the guys couldn't join the girls team. Otherwise it becomes a mockery.

[Brian McKenna]

if a girl can bring it than i say let her play - i'm not going to be the one to tell them they can't do something - there are too many others out there shouting that from the rafters

[SABR Steve]

if a girl can bring it than i say let her play - i'm not going to be the one to tell them they can't do something - there are too many others out there shouting that from the rafters

She can bring it with the girls team, can't she?

[lautrec]

OK,,,how about a really fast human runner racing greyhounds. Hey, if he's fast enough, we shouldn't segregate them.

Personally, if a woman is good enough to play with the men, fine, go for it. (But don't crash her at home plate, brush her back from the plate, slap a head tag on her, or put Atomic Balm in her, er, "jockstrap") We must retain politcal correctness, lest we be branded mysoginists <sp?>

Is it fair for a woman to take a potential slot for a man, on a male baseball team, if he's not allowed to take a slot from a female player on that school's softball team?

How about this: What if a high school male is really skilled at fastpitch softball, yet his high school has no team that is exclusively male, only a baseball team. Is he allowed to take a spot from a female? Would the other teams in the league protest? What if he's really good, but maybe not as good as some of the other females on the team, yet better than some. You have to believe that the other teams (with all females) are going to protest.

So, they will never allow a male to play on a female team. YET, we are supposed to believe that it's fine for a female to play on a male team. Acutally, we aren't really even supposed to classify it as a "male" team. Those classifications are only correct, if one is classifying a female team.

Hmmm,,,maybe men and women are DIFFERENT. Whoa, what a concept.

I guess my question is, Why do the women want to play with men? Is there no satisfaction in being superlative amongst your peers and sex? What does this say about certain women's view of the competitiveness of their own sex? Why is it correct for women to "move up", yet deemed tacky for men to want to excel against women?

[Brittney]

Should women be able to play competetive baseball (high school, college, ect.)?

Yeah. I think that girls should be able to play guys baseball. They have guys softball teams but no girls baseball teams. I myself play on a guys hardball team and I do fine. If you're not good enough to make it, well then thats your problem. But if you're just as good as the rest of the team, you shouldn't not make the team just because youre a girl. It's the same with the major leagues.. a girl has never played. I think that girls (like myself) should push the limits and try to break tradition with the original guys only baseball teams.

[Knick9]

Yeah. I think that girls should be able to play guys baseball. They have guys softball teams but no girls baseball teams. I myself play on a guys hardball team and I do fine. If you're not good enough to make it, well then thats your problem. But if you're just as good as the rest of the team, you shouldn't not make the team just because youre a girl. It's the same with the major leagues.. a girl has never played. I think that girls (like myself) should push the limits and try to break tradition with the original guys only baseball teams.

I agree with you, if Jackie Robinson can break the racial barrier, then women should break the sex barrier, just add in adjustments.

[Astro]

There has been a woman drafted by a major league team

[Brian McKenna]

In the 43rd round of the 1993 amateur free agent draft 18-year-old Carey Schueler became the first woman selected by a major league team. On a lark, her father, White Sox general manager Ron Schueler picked her. She was not signed.

[Gashouse6]

In the 43rd round of the 1993 amateur free agent draft 18-year-old Carey Schueler became the first woman selected by a major league team. On a lark, her father, White Sox general manager Ron Schueler picked her. She was not signed.

Well of course her dad is going to sign her!!! Do you know how far she got in the minor leagues?

[Brian McKenna]

she was not signed

[little_1_lady]

Maybe I read the question wrong - or it's just really late & i'm really tired 0 but I thought the question was should a girl be allowed to play competitive baseball?

I took it as a womens baseball league/team, not women playing on a mans baseball team/league. I don't have a problem with womens starting their own basball team/league. I played baseball all the way up to 8th grade, and now am coaching 9-10 BB (that means nothing other than it's a coincidence). I wasn't good enough to really be playing, we were just short males in my school - however I did get to pitch about 60% of the games because I was better at the strike zone... so my coach told me anyway - personally I think the boys just liked to look at me & could have cared less about watching a baseball, since they were in their hormonal phases it seems logical.

To be honest I hate those dang big 'ol softball, they're heavy & they're not worth two cents to me. When I play catch I prefer to play with a baseball & when I play competitively with other people we play with a baseball (baseball style) because it's more challenging.

So anotherwords, if a woman or large group of women want to be challenged at a sport, yes they should start their own league to play competively - I would even try out. I wouldn't make it, but I would at least try out.

[SABR Steve]

I agree with you, if Jackie Robinson can break the racial barrier, then women should break the sex barrier, just add in adjustments.

I doubt seriously if Jackie Robinson would agree with you.

[Knick9]

I doubt seriously if Jackie Robinson would agree with you.

:confused:

Anyway, these replies are quite interesting. Nice thread. :clapping

EDIT: You are not Jackie Robinson so your arguement is invalid...you don't know for sure. :rolleyes:

[CapAnson]

See I think the question is flawed.. Should women be able to? Yes.
Should teams/leagues,etc. be allowed to exclude them if they want? Yes.

Actually does anyone know if there is a rule that says womens specifically can't? Could the Red Sox of whoever draft and play a women if they wanted?

[Brian McKenna]

ford frick's ruling on 6/21/1952 banning women from organized baseball still stands

[Knick9]

CapAnson: No. The commish (not Bud Selig I'm talking about) banned women from playing in MLB. It has been effective since then.

It's a shame, really. The closest women will get in baseball will be the indy circuits.

[runningshoes]

See I think the question is flawed.. Should women be able to? Yes.
Should teams/leagues,etc. be allowed to exclude them if they want? Yes.

Actually does anyone know if there is a rule that says womens specifically can't? Could the Red Sox of whoever draft and play a women if they wanted?

Exlude them on what basis, though?

Simply because they don't want women on thier teams?

[Knick9]

Exlude them on what basis, though?

Simply because they don't want women on thier teams?

Basically, yes. I think it's horrible, though.

[Monster Mike]

No because everytime I've heard of a man trying to play a womens sport it gets shot down because they'll be to dominant. In high school we had a girl wrestler because we had to a girl football player because we had to. As soon as a couple of us tried to play girls volleyball everybody flipped out. Why? Easy because we would've been to dominant.

"If men and women have equal talent, ability, training/coaching, and skills, all luck aside size speed and power will win out everytime."

Each girl would've ended up on the bench.

[Brian McKenna]

so there are no women with size, speed or power?

[Monster Mike]

Yes there are put only as compared to their own gender, but not comparable to a man in the majors. Or NFL and NBA for that matter. I'm not sexist. I just would be worried about not only their confidence but their safety. A collision at home plate or in the field could be devastating. If a woman can compete physically on the same level as men I have no objections. I actually have a female cousin good looking girl who as a junior in high school rushed for over 1000 yds and had 6 sacks. But she knew she'd never play college or NFL football.

[Brian McKenna]

i don't think anyone is debating whether a women could play in the nfl - i took the question to mean a more skilled sport where one or some could develop the necessary skills to advance up through amateur ball into the pro system - could see that happening - the argument of confidence and safety sounds like a traditional argument designed to maintain the status quo

[Monster Mike]

I have no problem with women playing in any professional male sport. As long as the standards and integrity of that sport remains constant. Meaning no special treatment, no rule changes to accomodate an individuals lack of prowess (ie: the inability to hit over 400' so 300' is good enough) and no excuses if and when failure occurs. Just as Jackie Robinson knew the black man in the majors had to be above and beyond reproach so must the first female. God bless all who try and good luck to all who make it. After women in the majors do you eliminate softball?

[2 4 1]

ford frick's ruling on 6/21/1952 banning women from organized baseball still stands

A pro-male team tried to sign Dottie Kamenshek, 1st basemen for the Rockford Peaches of the AAGPBL, to a contract- that was the incentive for the ruling banning women.

[Brian McKenna]

actually the ban was over eleanor engle who had signed with the harrisburg senators of the interstate league - she took pre-game drills one day but did not appear in the game then was banned

kamenshek was offered a contract by Fort Lauderdale of the Florida International League in August 1951 - it was AAGPBL officials that nixed that deal

[Monster Mike]

bkmckenna, are you from PA? I thought only locals knew about Eleanor Engle.

[KamBam]

I aint never heard of woman baseball players

[Brian McKenna]

this thread actually was started about softball but if you search through this forum you will see many references to women who played professional baseball

[Comm]

Let's be serious, women just aren't the physical specimens that men are. Could you see a woman standing up to a 6'8", 300lb + Linebacker in football -- or even slug homeruns like Bonds, Pujols, Thome? I mean the Olympic record for womens C & J in the 75kg + division is only 400lbs -- by a woman who weighs close to 300, herself. Yet, men half her size are lifting that weight quite comfortably!

See my point; women just don't have it in them to perform against the best of men -- period!

[5LilPlayers]

I doubt seriously if Jackie Robinson would agree with you.

Jackie might not, but Hank Aaron certianly does.

And I quote:

"There is no logical reason why girls shouldn't play baseball. It's not that tough. Not as tough as radio and TV announcers make it out to be... Some can play better than a lot of guys who've been on that field."

I have seen a lot of the opposition talking about "guys on softball teams".

Some of the opposition have stated about "girls playing a 'guy's' sport" and "boys playing a 'girl's' sport".

You've said it yourselves. Softball is traditionally female dominated, baseball is traditionally male dominated.

I don't care how you look at it. If a female is good enough, she should be able to make the baseball team. If a male is good enough (fast or slow-pitch) he should be allowed to play on the softball team. There is rarely ever a "boy's" softball team in school leagues...elementary even up to college. Likewise, there is rarely a "girl's" baseball team in school leagues. All due to gender discrimination.

And this (women playing a "men's" sport) goes double in the Minor leagues, even in the Majors. If a female can throw, catch, hit...play their position and general ball well...with the best of them, why settle for sub-standard male players, just because they're male? When another Women's Baseball League is formed...Women's Major League Baseball...then fine, let the girls play on the girls' teams. Until then, women should have every right to play with the "boys" as long as they're good enough.

It all boils down to one simple thing. Ability...NOT gender...should determine who plays on what team or in what league. If a woman can hit a 450 foot homer and her male opponent hasn't hit one out of the park in his life...that woman should get the spot on the team (as long as fielding, position playing, and the like are up to par, too...of course)!

[5LilPlayers]

Actually does anyone know if there is a rule that says womens specifically can't? Could the Red Sox of whoever draft and play a women if they wanted?


Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis, the first official commissioner of baseball, ruled in April of 1931 that professional baseball was "too strenuous" for women, therefore banning women from playing, professionally, with men. However, on December 10, 1993, the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues ruled that women could play against men in minor-league baseball. So, women can't play "with" the boys, but they can play against the boys, in the Minors at least.

[5LilPlayers]

Let's be serious, women just aren't the physical specimens that men are. Could you see a woman standing up to a 6'8", 300lb + Linebacker in football -- or even slug homeruns like Bonds, Pujols, Thome?

See my point; women just don't have it in them to perform against the best of men -- period!

No, I don't see your point. Baseball and football, as well as wrestling and weight lifting are totally different sports.

Baseball isn't about physical attrributes. The shortest player was actually only slightly over 3 ft. tall, and there are greats now who stand well over 6'. I highly doubt that "short" player weighed even 100 lbs. Baseball isn't about how big you are, how many muscles you have, or what you can bench press. It's about skill, and natural ability helps. Bat speed counts, with pitching - having a few different types of pitches is a must, speed on the base path counts. With proper coaching/training, a woman could be just as good as, if not better than, a man.

[Comm]

With proper coaching/training, a woman could be just as good as, if not better than, a man.

True, providing that the men aren't trained. You put the 9 best women BB players against the 9 best Male BB players, the males would wipe the floor with them. No amount of training will give a girl the Hitting power that McGwire had. It's as simple as that! Have you seen Womens Softball reps playing in those All-Star Celeb Softball games? Even some of the celebs out hit them --and I'm talking the women on the American Softball Team.

[Brian McKenna]

it's not about the nine best women vs. the nine best men - it's not about the roid freak mcgwire either or whomever you want to name

it's about the potential of a female athlete being able to find a spot on a major league roster one day - i personally think that is entirely possible - stop letting your misogyny cloud your thinking

i was in havre de grace last weekend for the lpga championship and saw michele wie reach a 600-yard par-5 in two shots - only an ass couldn't see the potential here

i'm embarrassed for the males who come here spouting off their bias against women - their arguments sound strikingly similar to all the ones used against other minorities throughout history - the first time someone tells my daughter that she can't do something i hope i'm there because she'll see the proper response to that argument

[Knick9]

Actually, if you type in "women's baseball" in your main website search function, teams have been made for women only.

Now, Ila Borders lasted a good amount of time in the Northern League (Independent) as a pitcher. A few years. If she was really awful then she wouldn't have lasted as long as she did, I'm sure of it.

Women who can hit for power are in the minority. I'm not saying that none of the power type exists, but it's rare. If anything, you will most likely see women ball players who fit the mold of Juan Pierre, Ichiro, and Scott Podsednik. Speedy players who can get base hits and work well on baserunning and stealing bases.

I could also see women making it if they were legit enough on the pitcher's mound, whether starter or reliever.

However, excluding women just because of the fact that they are women is discriminating in my mind, just like some people said that Jackie Robinson couldn't play just because he was black. That's not the basic feeling here I suppose, so I'll shy away from this spot for the time being.

Now some say they are worried for the safety of the women. Women aren't always going to be colliding at home plate each game, and when they do, I'm sure there will be a certain technique used to get around the obvious weight difference between her and the male catcher. Fielding shouldn't be a huge problem for women, it's good timing, hustling, and the eye detecting the ball. Bunting is easy for everybody. Swinging the bat outright seems to be the core of the debate. If she is a consistent enough hitter (not exactly a power hitter, but if she hits well in general) then I don't see why she shouldn't be given the chance. Even having her normally on the bench without the fear of losing that spot is an accomplishment right there.

[Comm]

" michele wie reach a 600-yard par-5 in two shots - only an ass couldn't see the potential here"

Give me a link to this.

[Comm]

it's not about the nine best women vs. the nine best men - it's not about the roid freak mcgwire either or whomever you want to name

it's about the potential of a female athlete being able to find a spot on a major league roster one day - i personally think that is entirely possible - stop letting your misogyny cloud your thinking

i was in havre de grace last weekend for the lpga championship and saw michele wie reach a 600-yard par-5 in two shots - only an ass couldn't see the potential here

i'm embarrassed for the males who come here spouting off their bias against women - their arguments sound strikingly similar to all the ones used against other minorities throughout history - the first time someone tells my daughter that she can't do something i hope i'm there because she'll see the proper response to that argument

Ok, you're not getting what I am saying. When it comes down to the best man and the best woman - the man will always be the better.eg. Checkout all of the track and field records( All dominated by men). Even weightlifting records( Dominated by men), watch womens cricket and tell me which player would make a cut in the mens side?

Bkmckenna, your argument about women competing against men just doesn't and hasn't happened in real life.

[5LilPlayers]

Ok, you're not getting what I am saying. When it comes down to the best man and the best woman - the man will always be the better.

I think someone needs a little reminder of that now infamous tennis match.

Male vs. Female...

Who won?

No, "the man" will NOT "always be the better".

In games of power...such as football. In games where height matters...such as basketball. Men may be better, for the sole reason that men typically start out, biologically, with more muscle mass and are generally taller than "average" women...but that's not always the case, either. There are minor to extreme cases for either gender -- "short" males, more muscular females -- than break the norms. But average male vs. average female (height and weight)...it depends on who has more natural ability and determination.

The only reason that women aren't in the record books for baseball is because the All American Girls Professional Baseball League didn't last long enough for "career" stats and though the women have their spot in Cooperstown, they're still downgraded in the eyes of most baseball officials. All of the women in the league were excellent athletes. If one is determined enough, they'll overcome anything you can throw at them.

Sophie Kurys of the All Amercian Girls Professional Baseball League had a record of 201 stolen bases in one season. A male....Ricky Henderson, to be exact...holds the record (from 1982) for having only 130.

Base paths were only 5 feet shorter for the women's league. Going by pure distance alone, 130 x 90 means Ricky ran 10,800 feet. 201 x 85 equals a total of 17,085 feet for Sophie.

Ted Williams hit .400 in in 1953....Rogers Hornsby had a .424 average in 1924....yet Joanne Weaver of the AAGPBL had a record in 1954 with a .429 average.

Joanne only had a .005 lead over Rogers, but it was a lead. These records may well stand the test of time.

Orel Hershiser has a Major League record of 59 consecutive scoreless innings pitched, however Joanne Winter threw 63 consecutive scoreless innings.

63 - 59 means Ms. Winter threw 4 more scoreless consecutive innings than her male counterpart. Ms. Winter's record could be broken by a male ONLY due to the fact that MLB now offers more games per season than they used to. The AAGPBL only played approximately 108 games a season when the MLB regular season consists of 160 games, give or take.

Not to mention, the women were a lot tougher than their male counterparts. A broken jaw in MLB gets you a week, if not two, off. Women in the AAGPBL played with broken jaws, toes, fingers and more.

It doesn't take much to see that women could excel, if they were given the chance to prove themselves in the first place. Women may never get those 400 foot slams, but home runs aren't everything. That game-winning home run would be great...but to me, a coach who's daring is even better. What about...bottom of the 9th, 2 out, with a runner on 3rd...and a game winning bunt?

Power doesn't mean "better" in baseball....in times, yes, it can be a good thing...but trying to spank the ball every time is plainly a bad ball tactic to use. You need those runners who can bunt, run, and hit line drives at the plate, just as much as you need those who can hit a decent long ball. You don't need power to bunt, you don't need much power to hit a line drive...but you do need to work with players on where to put the ball (as opposed to how far they can put the ball) when they're at the plate. If you can tell a player "see that hole between right and center....aim there!" or "they're all playing deep, aim a shallow shot behind second"...and they can deliver the ball to that spot a good 40 - 60% of the time....that is a much more valuable player than one who can crunch a homer even that same 40 - 60% of the time.

[Brian McKenna]

while i advocate female athletics and the female athlete to go as far as she possibly can, the context of the above argument is counterproductive and faulty - while the aagpbl is indeed interesting and included quality ballplayers and achievements, no one really believes that the quality of play in the aagpbl is anywhere near that of the major leagues - to suggest otherwise is more about the cause than reality

is the argument about the past or the future?

knick9 presents a more of a level approach to the topic - there have been legit prospects in the past and there will be more sporadically, especially if women take the ped route that many male ballplayers seem to be

[Comm]

" Not to mention, the women were a lot tougher than their male counterparts."

Ahhh, you have forgot to mention Lou Gehrig and Ripken's playing 2000+ consecutive games with injuries...

[Comm]

" In games of power...such as football. In games where height matters...such as basketball. Men may be better, for the sole reason that men typically start out, biologically, with more muscle mass and are generally taller than "average" women...but that's not always the case, either. There are minor to extreme cases for either gender -- "short" males, more muscular females -- than break the norms. But average male vs. average female (height and weight)...it depends on who has more natural ability and determination."

Ok, can you explain this. If you look at the Olympic weightlifting comp, the most weight C&J is 400lbs -- by a 300lb woman. Yet, you have men half that size lifting equally or more. Let's face it, woman lack the testosterone to compete with men -- unless they're doing roids. If you need more convincing, go and watch a Women's cricket match, then watch the Men's. Women's cricket is like watching kids playing. To further the discussion, let's take into account the biological side. Explain to me why Bulls are always more powerfully built then cows? They are only as active as each other.

[5LilPlayers]

" Ahhh, you have forgot to mention Lou Gehrig and Ripken's playing 2000+ consecutive games with injuries...

Ahhh, you have forgotten that the AAGPBL was only in existence for 12 years...108 games a year (in full swing of things, fewer games were played per season when it started and as it was dying out) led to, at most, only 1296 games. The females couldn't compete with that simply because the league didn't exist long enough for them to have done so. And that would be impossible...male or female...to play that many consecutive games with injuries. No injury lasts that long. If that were the case, it would be a permanent condition, not an injury.

[CuriousBoston]

it's not about the nine best women vs. the nine best men - it's not about the roid freak mcgwire either or whomever you want to name

it's about the potential of a female athlete being able to find a spot on a major league roster one day - i personally think that is entirely possible - stop letting your misogyny cloud your thinking

i was in havre de grace last weekend for the lpga championship and saw michele wie reach a 600-yard par-5 in two shots - only an ass couldn't see the potential here

i'm embarrassed for the males who come here spouting off their bias against women - their arguments sound strikingly similar to all the ones used against other minorities throughout history - the first time someone tells my daughter that she can't do something i hope i'm there because she'll see the proper response to that argument:clapping :clapping :clapping Well said!

[5LilPlayers]

[QUOTE=Comm]" Ok, can you explain this. If you look at the Olympic weightlifting comp, the most weight C&J is 400lbs -- by a 300lb woman. Yet, you have men half that size lifting equally or more. Let's face it, woman lack the testosterone to compete with men -- unless they're doing roids.QUOTE]

I'm not speaking of weight lifting. Not to mention, I don't get into lifting so I have no idea what you're even talking about up there.

Also, as I stated, which you seem to be either missing or flat out ignoring, I vote for ignoring, since you copied that part of my post...in sports of power (football, lifting, etc.)...women probably could not compete against a man.

Batting has more to do with timing (hand/eye coordination). No matter how much "power" a hitter has, if his timing is off, he's going to miss the ball, or foul it off...either way, that's a strike (unless it's the 3rd or more foul tip, of course)...and strikes don't win games. More games are won by late inning line drives, bobbled balls, or in some cases, earlier inning sacrifice bunts or the like than by out-of-the-park homers.

Pitching is also key. If the pitcher can't hold off the opposition, you're not going to win, either....and pitching techniques can be taught as well...different hand positions to make the ball hop, twist or drop/sink at the right time.

You're not looking at the bigger picture...the whole of what baseball is. Your focus is currently based only on power. This thread is about women playing baseball and baseball is NOT a game based solely (or even "mostly") on power. It's about skills and techniques that can be taught.

[5LilPlayers]

while i advocate female athletics and the female athlete to go as far as she possibly can, the context of the above argument is counterproductive and faulty - while the aagpbl is indeed interesting and included quality ballplayers and achievements, no one really believes that the quality of play in the aagpbl is anywhere near that of the major leagues - to suggest otherwise is more about the cause than reality

is the argument about the past or the future?

I never tried to say that the quailty of play was the same, it wasn't...couldn't have been...please don't take it that way.

It is about the past...and the future...though.

If women have done it before, why can't they do it again? Their own league or in MLB play?

I am also in no way saying a woman will ever hit that 400 ft. homer (like I used as an example in an earlier post)...I doubt they could, that was, afterall, just an example...I really hope no one thought I was serious about that...but as I stated in another, more recent post, "power" seems to be the key word to some...and baseball is just not a sport that is based on power -- or brute strength or whatever you want to call it.

You can't "train" a woman to get more muscle mass, such as is usually needed for football, weight lifting, etc. You can, however, train anyone, male or female, (or with a true love of the game....boy or girl) on pitching, hitting and fielding techniques. With today's steady supply of "new" and/or "improved" training aids as well as technological improvements, it only makes that training easier.

[gossy]

May I suggest that there is definitely a physical difference between male and females, that will never be changed, and doesn't need to be.

So essentially, the majority of men will be stronger, faster, bigger than women. Its a fact, Jack (and Jill!).

And so, generally speaking, the best male players will be "better" than the best female players.

This isn't to say that a top level game of the best female players is any less exciting or a spectacle than the top level game of mens. Female baseballers are pretty skilled, can make some awesome plays, hit the ball a long way (or contact hit with finesse), go hard sliding into a base, dive for the ball, execute double plays, throw a curve ball, strike some one out, pick some-one off, execute a bunt ... this list goes on.

So women's baseball has a place, and deserves to be supported, encouraged and developed. As does men's baseball.

But, men playing in women's competitions is likely to be dangerous to a lot of the women who play, because of their physical capabilities.

BUT, a woman who chooses to play in a men competition will do so because

a) There isn't a women's team to play in
b) Its fun to play in the men's team (and the men in the team accept and appreciate her for her contribution to the team)
c) She is capable of playing at that level
d) She plays women's and men's because she wants to play as much as she can and there aren't as many opportunities for women

I have played women's at local, national and international levels, so I reckon I can catch, throw and hit pretty well. I play in a men's competition, thats not a particularly high level, and there are guys that catch, throw and hit much better than I do. But they value me as a player and I contribute to the team just as much as anyone else. Tag me as hard as you want. I've been hit by an 85mph fast ball and didn't cry. I'll dive into base, i'll slide if its needed, especially at second base to break up a double. I play hard, and I don't expect any favours because I'm a girl. But don't diss me BECAUSE I am a girl, and if you do, make sure you watch your back, cos my team will be on your case!

So why shouldn't I play? I pay my fees just like any bloke!

Its my diamond! You're just playing on it!

[CuriousBoston]

Pretty soon we'll have enough of us females here to have a game with our fellow posters. I'd like to be catcher,but third base coach is more realistic.

You will enjoy this baseball site. A few dinosaurs roam around, but disrespect is not allowed.

What position(s) do you play?

[5LilPlayers]

What position(s) do you play?

I know you weren't speaking directly to me, but personally....I've played every position except catcher. Started "training" with my dad as soon as I could hold a bat and throw a ball. I started playing in kindergarten and played until I was 22 (never went to college, but after high school I played on my church team)...was actually pregnant with my first that last year. For elementary school, it was softball...the rest of those years I played baseball. Wasn't allowed to join the "boy's" baseball team in jr. high or high school, the high school coach actually told me to "go play softball like all the good little girls" when I showed up for try-outs...but I was desperate to play baseball and eventually found a local league that would accept me.

Yes, I'm female. I just hate admitting it at certain times....like these. Doesn't matter if you know the game, know your facts and stats, or anything else. There will always be some males who feel women "don't know anything" about baseball...usually just because they are female.

I come from a rather short line of ballplayers. I still think dad always secretly hoped for a boy (I was an only child)...but his love of the game was infectious. None of dad's siblings really liked baseball as much as he did, they were all more into football or basketball. That love has lasted a lifetime, and even today, I still say there's nothing better than the smell of the leather glove, the cowhide on the ball, the fresh cut grass, and the wonderful, glorious "baseball dirt" all combined together. Even when my teams didn't have games, my mom would still complain every summer that I "smelled like a baseball diamond" because I played almost everyday...if there wasn't a thunderstorm, I could always find at least one other person, even if it was only playing catch....but in my neighborhood, the boys greatly outnumbered the girls, so there was almost always a pick-up game going on somewhere in the area. When it did rain, I'd be in our basement, using pillows with chalk marks (for the strike zone) against the cement wall to help my pitching, setting up my gymnastics mat to practice sliding (cement floor, too...not good LOL), or I'd roll rubber balls (official size and weight of a baseball) against the wall to work on fielding grounders and chest-high catches.

Now, with 5 little ones, I'm hoping that I am instilling the love of the game in them. Having 4 girls (and 1 boy) only makes me hope that at least a couple of them end up loving the game as much as I do. For the girls, I hope that they won't shy away when boys tell them they can't do something (this goes for anything, not just baseball). The kids are currently aged from 10 down to 21 months...and so far, they would all rather go to the ball park than a park with slides and swings. The oldest daughter (currently 7) once commented that she didn't like baseball "because girls don't play"...so I got every book on the AAGPBL that I could find for her and we watched (the edited [cable] version of) A League of Their Own several times. Even after all the watching and the reading, it wasn't until she struck out her big brother (the 10 yr. old) that she really developed a love of the game.

For anyone...but especially children, either gender...there's nothing like that feeling of "I CAN do this!"...and, especially with the kids, the look on their faces when they do that one "something" they didn't think they could.

I knew I could "play with the boys" around here...I proved I could...but I really don't know how far, if at all, I could have gotten because I let that one high school coach get to me and didn't try to fight. I knew, at that time, that I'd never play professionally (due to legal reasons, not because I questioned my playing ability)...but I would have loved to have been able to go up against a "real" team (college level) to see if I had it in me to compete at that level. I may never know now...but I do plan on attending the local MLB's fantasy camp next summer. Sounds like fun to me...and I'd be playing again. Also gives me time to try to get back into shape a little. LOL

[vanillavalentine]

I'd love to hear more!:clapping

[JeepingBaseball]

i played 1st, catcher, and right field.... but my perfered spot is on the pitchers mound.

Because i can hit the long ball, my pitching isnt taken too seriously.

[5LilPlayers]

i played 1st, catcher, and right field.... but my perfered spot is on the pitchers mound.

Because i can hit the long ball, my pitching isnt taken too seriously.
I still think it's odd that people don't take pitchers who can hit seriously.

Longest so far for me...224 feet - playing in the adult division for the local church league. I'm still working on improving that...I hope to hit a 300 footer eventually, even just once, but I doubt it'll ever happen.

Pitching is the best...there's something about that feeling of knowing you are litereally surrouned by your teammates, yet still feeling all alone at times...and since ours was a co-ed team/league, I loved striking out the men...the women, I didn't think twice about, but there were several teams we played against that were men only because the women were more interested in supporting their husbands than playing themselves.

Aw man...it's raining here...and I suddenly have this desperate desire to take the kids to the diamond. LOL Actually, I get that feeling every time I come here.

[OverThereSomeWhere]

I've often wondered if Jennie Finch (softball HOFer prob, This Week In Base Ball on Fox, etc.) would play replacement level ball in the major leagues or Triple A.

I envision some day a female Jason Simontacchi who can kind of throw curves and crap getting a few acceptable innings in. Jean Simontacchi? (No insult to Jason, I always have rooted for the guy who lost to Clemens in Clemen's 300th win)

There WAS that one girl, whose name I can't recall, who actually pitched the good life for a while in Double A or single A or somethin'. The world wasn't ready........... or something, perhaps she just stunk. I wish I could find her stats, and her name so I could find them :o...

[OverThereSomeWhere]

IMO, the 1940s woman's league, pro softball, ect, proves beyond repute that women have only one obstacle to competing at the same level, in the same leagues as the best men: the status quo

[Brian McKenna]

major league baseball is the elite among the elite - in order to make its roster you have to begin from a youngster to gain the required skills and talent level - that is where a woman ballplayer must start - not women because en masse they are not going to make a minor league roster - a woman first off must MUST be good enough to attract the attention of at least one ml scout

and sorry but an underhand pitcher is not the answer no matter how good she may be in softball - softball and baseball are almost two entirely different sports

i would love to see a women in organized baseball - that woman must play baseball from a youngster and develop the required skills to wow a pro scout - and i mean wow because that is the only way it will happen - her skills must literally force the men to take her serious - unfortunately but the current state of affairs she will have to be tougher than all her male competitors - first off their will have to be a lot of women ballplayers because only 1 in so many is ever good enough to make it, the conversion from amateur ball (and to a wooden bat) often signals the end to many careers

first off, women have to support sports which they do not - the coors teams were a good step but of course they did not last because women do not care about sports period - i'm a male and i can say flatly that i encourage my daughter to play every sport possible - many mothers i have encounter push their daughters away from sports and many fathers do as well - until women take an interest in sports they will be left behind - take a look at any payoff in the monday paper lpga vs. pga - the women make well less than 25% of their male counterparts

[NotAboutEgo]

Women should be allowed and supported to play baseball, PERIOD. The only reason women have had to fight to break down baseball barriers, like other sexist barriers, is because of male ego and the insecurity of some women who contribute to this. Should women be allowed to play competitive baseball? DUH!!! Should females be allowed to play on men's hardball teams in high school and college? DUH!!! Should females be allowed to play in the Majors and Minors if they have equivelant skills as their male counterparts? DUH!!!

Should males be able to play on women's softball teams if there aren't any men's teams available? DUH!!! Someone made a comment that if males started playing on women's sports teams, then the males would start to dominate. Is that a proven fact? I hardly think so. I have been playing sports with both females and males most of my life, and I currently play roller hockey in an adult coed league, and I also play baseball with both men and women. In many cases, the women out-do the men. Just because a person is a male it doesn't mean he will excel beyond all women. THAT in and of itself is a very sexist comment, whether it was meant that way or not.

There are plenty of guys out there who can't throw a baseball (notice I didn't use the stereotypical term for people who can't throw well?), who can't hit, who can't field, etc. It depends on skill, coordination, talent, hand-eye coordination, knowledge of mechanics, fundamentals, and the game, effort and desire, experience, etc. It does not, however, depend on whether you are male or female just as it does not depend on what color your skin is.

I can go on and on and on about this, but we all know that people in general have huge egos that they don't know how to let go of, and when it comes to sports as well as many other things, males have huge egos/insecurity about women playing "their" sports. The bottom line is, what good reason is there that women shouldn't be able to play baseball, regardless of where or what league it's in?

Perhaps a lot of this will not be a factor soon, as USA Baseball has been sanctioning a women's national baseball team since 2004, and there have been women's international baseball competitions, in modern times, for about 10 years or more. There are internationally sanctioned women's baseball events (sanctioned by national governing bodies of the respective countries that play in them and sanctioned by the IBAF... International Baseball Association and Federation), and the list of countries that are supporting their own women's national teams is growing.

Also, on the home front here in the U.S., where women's baseball lags behind women's baseball in other countries such as Japan, Australia, and Canada, John Kovach of the South Bend Blue Sox Women's Baseball Club and historian for Saint Mary's University in South Bend, Indiana has recently formed a women's collegiate baseball club for St. Mary's/Notre Dame Universities. Plans are to use this team as a model for future women's collegiate baseball teams. Once this happens, along with the umpteen women's and girls' amateur baseball teams and leagues around the world, there will be reason enough to start women's baseball in high schools. Also, there is a pro women's league on the East Coast... the North American Women's Baseball League. Yes, women's pro baseball DOES exist currently in the U.S.

Thanks to hundreds of hard working people around the planet that are making it possible for women to play hardball, women soon may not have to fight to play a game they love and prosper at! :atthepc :D

[NotAboutEgo]

I highly disagree with your statements, bkmckenna...

first off, women have to support sports which they do not - the coors teams were a good step but of course they did not last because women do not care about sports period - i'm a male and i can say flatly that i encourage my daughter to play every sport possible - many mothers i have encounter push their daughters away from sports and many fathers do as well - until women take an interest in sports they will be left behind - take a look at any payoff in the monday paper lpga vs. pga - the women make well less than 25% of their male counterparts

You can't generalize and say that women are not interested in sports. In fact, MOST women I have ever known really like sports, watch them, and yes, they even play them! The reason people think this is because of our beloved media in the U.S., the mighty male ego that likes to stifle most anything a women does better than they do or at least things that a woman wants to do that males think they should not do because males think they need to have the upper hand in everything.

It is a fact that there were women's PRO hardball teams from the 1890's to 1934 in the U.S. called the Bloomer Girls teams. In fact, they played men's community and semi-pro teams, often beating them. But, these teams started to disappear because of what... the male ego? Women were forced out of playing baseball and men's minor league teams were formed... the beginning of men taking over the sport. Sometime after that, national organizations wouldn't support women's baseball teams, and instead, started supporting women's slow pitch softball and pretty much "pushed" women out of baseball.

In addition to that, women have been constantly dominated by men throughout history, being told that they are weak and need to stay in the home and serve their husbands and that they can't play sports because it's not "lady-like" and so on and so on and so on. All of this plays into why women are seen as NOT supporting sports. It's not because women just rolled over and decided they don't like sports and they don't want anything to do with them. Rather, it has more to do with what has happend to them throughout history.

If you would like to do some reserach/reading on this, look up Leslie Heaphy. She has some really good articles out there that pertain to this.

[Brian McKenna]

i'm not generalizing that women don't like sports i'm saying that supply stems from demand - demand is growing but needs to make more advances - if you highly disagree with my statement than you must be saying that female athletics and their support from female fans must be at or near the apex - thus everything is functioning at a high level, no improvement needed

sorry to offend by suggesting that female athletics is not fully supported by female viewers - i would have thought that was obvious - i should have added a sentence blaming men and used a few sarcastic duhs!! to raise the comfort level

[Brian McKenna]

It is a fact that there were women's PRO hardball teams from the 1890's to 1934 in the U.S. called the Bloomer Girls teams. In fact, they played men's community and semi-pro teams, often beating them. But, these teams started to disappear because of what... the male ego? Women were forced out of playing baseball and men's minor league teams were formed... the beginning of men taking over the sport. Sometime after that, national organizations wouldn't support women's baseball teams, and instead, started supporting women's slow pitch softball and pretty much "pushed" women out of baseball.



the bloomer girls and other traveling female ballclubs died out because of the laws of supply and demand

the minors did not suddenly sprout up because of the waning of female baseball and the death of female baseball did not suddenly spark the domination of the sport by males - in truth baseball has always been a male dominated sport and the minors have been around a long, long time

[5LilPlayers]

major league baseball is the elite among the elite - in order to make its roster you have to begin from a youngster to gain the required skills and talent level - that is where a woman ballplayer must start - not women because en masse they are not going to make a minor league roster - a woman first off must MUST be good enough to attract the attention of at least one ml scout

and sorry but an underhand pitcher is not the answer no matter how good she may be in softball - softball and baseball are almost two entirely different sports

Couldn't have said any of that better myself. I'm "training" all my girls in baseball (while still letting them play softball), hopefully at least one of them will truly love the game enough to keep going as far as she can.

I like to imagine by the time the oldest gets out of high school, or college, that women will be playing at least in Class A with the guys, maybe not MLB yet, but we (women) have to start somewhere.

If one of my girls turns out to love the game as much as I do, and excels at it, I don't want her to be rejected JUST because she's female.


i would love to see a women in organized baseball - that woman must play baseball from a youngster and develop the required skills to wow a pro scout - and i mean wow because that is the only way it will happen - her skills must literally force the men to take her serious - unfortunately but the current state of affairs she will have to be tougher than all her male competitors - first off their will have to be a lot of women ballplayers because only 1 in so many is ever good enough to make it, the conversion from amateur ball (and to a wooden bat) often signals the end to many careers

Which is why I'm trainging mine in both softball and baseball. We hit the batting cages with wooden bats as well as aluminum/alloys, we "play catch" with baseballs and softballs, etc. If any of my girls have a shot, they'll have to know the rules and use the proper equipment. I just hope there will be a LOT of others. Girls are allowed in Little League now, but that's not enough. There needs to be organized baseball for girls/women to join when they get too old for Little League, too...so they can keep working on their skills. There options (around here) are very limited for baseball, but there's probably 300 girls' softball teams in the area...fast and slow pitch.


first off, women have to support sports which they do not - the coors teams were a good step but of course they did not last because women do not care about sports period

I don't really think it was that women didn't care about sports. I think it was in advertising. I didn't even know about the Silver Bullets until after they had disbanded. Read about them "by accident" in one of the more recent books about the AAGPBL...they had a "Looking Ahead" chapter, discussing women's professional ball and had a brief paragraph about the Bullets. If I had known, if they were on TV here, I certainly would have supported them in any way possible...and with more advertising, I think men would have supported it, too....if for nothing else than to watch the women....*ahem*....run. Sad to say, but a lot of men do think with that "lower brain". I'm in no way saying all do...nor am I denying that a lot of women only watch MLB (NFL, etc.) because of the guys in tight pants...we're all human. But even if that were the ONLY reason men/boys watched the females play...and went to the games...it would still mean attendence would be up, no matter the intention of why they went to the diamond. Advertising is key....all in all, you can't support something if you don't know it exists.

[QUOTE=bkmckenna]i'm a male and i can say flatly that i encourage my daughter to play every sport possible - many mothers i have encounter push their daughters away from sports and many fathers do as well

Sad, but sometimes true. Many mom's wanted to be (or were) cheerleaders, played softball, did gymnastics...all the "girl" stuff...and try to push their daughters into that type of thing. A lot of father's think their "daddy's girls" are too fragile...still thinking about the "fairer sex"...and discourage it. The gender bias walls are coming down, slowly...but even today, look at TV and you'll see it does still exist. Toy commercials...jump ropes and the like, you see a handful of little girls, maybe 1 boy....the Power Wheels, they have all sorts of them "for boys" (black, dark blue, etc.) and while they have many styles, the ones marketed for girls all have pink and/or purple. My daughter (the 5 yr. old) sees these commercials and at one point actually said "That's for boys" when seeing her 3 yr. old sister playing with my son's Legos set! Lego commercials rarely have girls playing with them...especially the specific sets (Pirates, Dinosaur/Caveman, etc.). I had to set her straight. Even if parents are open-minded enough to encourage their girls to play "boy's" sports (or with "boy" toys), they're bombarded with those images from TV, in magazines, etc. where the companies say that "this" is for boys and "that" is for girls...so parents have to work double time to impress upon their children that they can do anything, that gender isn't an issue. But when my little girls look and see women aren't playing baseball on a professinal level (MLB/Minors)....how can I honestly tell her...how can ANY of us honestly tell our daughters..."You can do whatever you want when you get older"? If a girl/woman wants to play...and if she demonstrates that she is good enough...for our daughters to get to that level only to be turned away because they're female? It isn't right.

Girls/Women who want to play, and have the skills equal to (or surpassing) their male counterparts should be allowed to play. Be it junior high, high school, or college ball....or even professionally on a team with the boys/men.

[sandlot]

Okay, a personal story that I hope broadens this discussion and, maybe, focuses it as well: I have loved baseball almost as long as I can remember, but the sad fact is, I'm not an athlete. I stink at most sports, and whatever ability I might have had at birth just got lost along the way, partly through lack of encouragement, partly through the absence of anyone sufficiently interested and around long enough to teach me the basics, and in part -- a large part, looking back -- because I was always trying much, much too hard. Today we'd call it overcompensating. I desperately wanted to belong, and that's what making a team is all about -- inclusion, acceptance and, if you've never made a team but are dying too, the feeling of being a normal person. Well, I'm one of the kids who never, and I mean never, made the team. It's painful, and I have a deep empathy for people who feel excluded from something, especially something they love. It's a form of denial you don't forget. But there was one time, one summer, when I'd begun to grow just a bit, and I discovered that I could play catcher okay, and I could throw to second with accuracy, and most of the other guys weren't interested in the position, and I thought, "Wow, now at last I can do it." To cut the story short, it was more than 50 years ago and America was a different place, especially the Deep South. A New England country boy in small-town Georgia was an alien creature, the more so belonging to a religion that had no church of its own to worship in. It was there that I learned for the first time about discrimination, what it is, how it works, how it feels. When we were Up North with other "Yankees," I didn't make the team because I just didn't have it. It hurt, and there were tears, but I learned to live with it. But down on the red-clay ballfield of small-town Georgia, I knew that I didn't make it not because of what I couldn't do, but because of who and what I was. And that, I think, is what's at the heart of this discussion about gender and baseball: making it or breaking it because of what you can or cannot do, and about having the opportunity to demonstrate what you can or cannot do -- not being excluded and denied because of what you happen to look like, or what someone else thinks you are, or what someone else thinks you can or cannot do, without ever being given a fair chance to prove or disprove the assumptions. And it's when exclusion and denial become institutionalized that the worst sins occur.

Anyway, decades later, I found myself on a co-ed team in softball league where anyone who wanted to play could. No tryouts. No roster cuts. Say what you will about softball, but I loved it -- we all did. We won our league and after 40 years or so, I finally had a little trophy to put on a shelf. Me, I think the issues are much deeper than that false and silly concept called ego. Let army sergeants, terrorist trainers and interrogators break down egos, they specialize in that. When more fundamental change occurs, ego can just be let go.

[JeepingBaseball]

whoever said that baseball is a techinque above power is absouletly 110% correct. And that's my opinion. Just wanted to add that. Even back in the day, Babe Ruth himself was quite the heavy set man that ate large amounts of unhealthy foods, smoked cigars, and drank like a fish. Yet one of the finest ballplayers in history. He didnt have "power"... he had all the right techinque in place. Then you have a player today like Bonds, whom I seriously question, but the fact remain he knows HOW to hit the ball... he did then before he turned into the 'hulk'.

As far as pitchers not being taking seriously because they can hit the long ball still baffles me. Whats a better team effort than a pitcher that can hit?

Back to women... a man might be stronger physically, I wont argue that. But a women can match the skill in the batter's box. 3rd basewomen will have to have added strength and excellent talent to pull that spot off. Almost anyone can play 1st base. A women has the advantage of squatting behind the plate as a catcher, but a possible risk for tagging someone out at home... just like a man is. I, myself, have manage to throw from right field to home plate on the nose, so i dont think the throwing distance is an issue either.

This arguement reminds me of the stupid childhood arguement of the tree forts... no girls allowed. 80% of the arguement is pyschological and sexist.

Till the day I die, I will continue to witness men pounding their chest with their egos.

[Brian McKenna]

I don't really think it was that women didn't care about sports. I think it was in advertising. I didn't even know about the Silver Bullets until after they had disbanded. Read about them "by accident" in one of the more recent books about the AAGPBL...they had a "Looking Ahead" chapter, discussing women's professional ball and had a brief paragraph about the Bullets. If I had known, if they were on TV here, I certainly would have supported them in any way possible...and with more advertising, I think men would have supported it, too....if for nothing else than to watch the women....*ahem*....run. Sad to say, but a lot of men do think with that "lower brain". I'm in no way saying all do...nor am I denying that a lot of women only watch MLB (NFL, etc.) because of the guys in tight pants...we're all human. But even if that were the ONLY reason men/boys watched the females play...and went to the games...it would still mean attendence would be up, no matter the intention of why they went to the diamond. Advertising is key....all in all, you can't support something if you don't know it exists.



you're right - never heard much about the bullets - not sure how they were promoted or where they played - i'm from baltimore so maybe they didn't catch on in major league cities - i assume they played everywhere else

i'll also agree that female baseball may not be the sexiest of sports considering the smaller outfits in tennis or other sports - so maybe they that is a problem in attracting male viewers

i watched quite a bit of the college softball world series and it was interesting but a little boring considering how pitcher-dominated it was - i think that the regular season may have been more or less interesting depending on the quality of the pitcher on the hill - if cat osterman is going against a mediocre team than forget it - snooze fest - but if there was a mediocre than perhaps there would be a little more action - many of the ladies carried a .300+ average but you wouldn't have known it during the series

i think women are coming into sports but it takes generations - female sports was virtually unnoticeable before the 1970s - still i look around my neighborhood and really i don't see many mothers encouraging it or even really taking an interest in sports - takes time i guess

[5LilPlayers]

whoever said that baseball is a techinque above power is absouletly 110% correct. And that's my opinion. Just wanted to add that.

That'd be me. :)


As far as pitchers not being taking seriously because they can hit the long ball still baffles me. Whats a better team effort than a pitcher that can hit?

Exactly!


Back to women... a man might be stronger physically, I wont argue that.

And that's only after puberty, really. Studies have shown that girls and boys are pretty much equal in "early" grade school when it comes to strength. It's not until puberty...when a boys' mucsles really start to develop. Girls can do strength/weight training to TRY to keep up, but there are definite phsyical differences after that point, and starting that young on an extremely rigirous strength/weight training program could do more harm than good, in either gender.


But a women can match the skill in the batter's box.

Yep....again this is where technique is just as important (or more than) as brute strength. Strength can and does help a bit...you need to be strong enough to stop the bat if you start to go after a bad pitch...but batting at balls straight over the heart of the plate, or if you are normally a "bad ball" hitter, strength doesn't matter as much as form. If you're not watching the ball until it meets the bat, if you're closing your eyes as they meet (or before), if you swing low on high balls/high at low balls, etc....you're not going to get a hit no matter how hard you try.


Till the day I die, I will continue to witness men pounding their chest with their egos.

Sad...but true. I often wonder how many years it will take before women are taken seriously in "men's" sports...before that gender biased barrier is broken. I pray I get to see it. Being "only" 33, I hope it does happen in my lifetime...but sadly, I don't honestly see it happening until my grandchildren are grown.

Silly, yes...but I was hoping the Red Sox wouldn't win another World Series until 2018. It would have been perfect timing. 100 years...my oldest daughter will be 20 then...always dreamed of her being the newest rookie on the team..."very young" 20 yr. old rookie...winning it for the Red Sox, last game of the series, in her first start of the season.

My newest hope/dream is that maybe my great-granddaughter will play for the Red Sox. Hopefully, if it does take that long, I'll be alive to see it...ANY female in MLB...but it'd be so much "better" if I were related to that female player. LOL

[5LilPlayers]

still i look around my neighborhood and really i don't see many mothers encouraging it or even really taking an interest in sports

Which is both sad...and bad...for little girls everywhere. How can a parent, especially a mother, tell their daughter "You can do anything" and then not encourage her to try different things, even if those things are "boy's" things? My oldest daughter now says she wants to try ballet...and while I am encouraging it (even while cringing LOL), I'd also love to get her into baseball...baseball, not softball. She wants to play, too...but tee-ball is her level right now. I'm just hoping that when she's old enough for Little League, we can find something for her. The majority of the LL teams here...and there are several...well, most are "boys only". Not due to rules and regulations, but because girls simply aren't pushed into even trying out. Not saying "push" in the sense of "forced", they're just too....sheltered, I guess is the word I'm looking for? "Not encouraged", maybe? I've seen girls playing around here...there are some VERY good ones...but here...it's usually the mother's saying "No, you can't, you're a girl." Telling your daughter "You can be a doctor, an astronaut, etc." is fine...but not encouraging sports, to me, is a disservice to little girls and young women.

I'd love to win the lotto for nothing more than to be able to let the kids join each and every team they want...basketball, football, soccer, karate, tennis, etc...just to at least let them try. I don't think I'd FORCE them to...but if we had the money, I'd much rather them play, especially the girls, anything they wanted..."boy's" or "girl's" sports...as well as sports geared towards both genders. I know the girls...or even my son...may never develop the proper skills for baseball, but to play ANY sport, and keep active, if they do find they like, and can dominate in some sport, I want them to have the chance.

Wow...I got wordy again, didn't I? Sorry!!! LOL

[NotAboutEgo]

Amen, 5lilPlayers... couldn't have said it better myself about how our society, especially the media/commercials stereotype everything and how this affects things like females playing baseball or not playing baseball. To bkmckenna... I was not being sarcastic but rather was stating the obvious. Definition sometimes has to do with the reader's perception. I have read books and other research materials stating that the depression affected both men's and women's baseball and that the male ego did infact also affect women's baseball fizzling out and national organizations not supporting it but supporting women's softball... or rather, pushing women to play softball by providing only softball for them and not providing baseball.

The media, as 5LilPlayers wrote, does highly affect the support and knowledge of women's sports. For example, the WNBA has been around for well over 10 years, yet this is the first year I have noticed WNBA games being televised on Fox Sports. Previously, they were televised on Oxygen.

I have yet to see a women's baseball game be televised on TV, even though we have a national team and women have been playing in international baseball competitions for going on 10 years.

What other women's sports do we see on Fox Sports and other sports channels and other channels? Our world is still a very male-dominated world in terms of sports and other things.

We have to ask, "What comes first... the chicken or the egg?" If more women's sports were on TV and in ads and everywhere else, more people would know about them, and in turn there would be mroe support for them. How can one not see how male dominance in this area has highly affected the support of women's baseball?

[5LilPlayers]

What other women's sports do we see on Fox Sports and other sports channels and other channels? Our world is still a very male-dominated world in terms of sports and other things.

We have to ask, "What comes first... the chicken or the egg?" If more women's sports were on TV and in ads and everywhere else, more people would know about them, and in turn there would be mroe support for them. How can one not see how male dominance in this area has highly affected the support of women's baseball?

That's why I consider myself somewhat lucky. Here, the local cable network created it's own sports channel, just for local stuff...Minor League ball down to Little League games...as well as other sports.

In the summer, it's good, lots of girls/women's softball at various levels (just watched a "9 and unders" fast-pitch softball game)...but of course, there is no girl's/women's baseball on. The only bright spot is that 90% or so of the women/girls are at least fast-pitch instead of slow.

But they also show girl's/women's hockey games, soccer, gymnastics, swimming, and more. Hockey is also more "male-dominated"..and they have powder puff football with girls...not anywhere near "real" football...but at least, in their own way, the local network is doing a LITTLE something to help the females who play.

I love watching the little girls play...if the teams were closer, I could get my own daughter on one of those 9 and under leagues...but it's not just about the games being televised, either.

One play during the 9 and Unders game...the pitcher went after a ball, dribbler down the 3rd base line...went to reach for it, then yanked her hand away like it was on fire...she KNEW, slow as it was, that it was going to roll foul...and layed off the ball until it did. The announcer was shocked, "Holy Toledo! I've seen Major Leaguers who wouldn't have been smart enough to let that ball go!" He was as excited as those little girls about that play.

Playing on TV isn't the only key factor. If you can hear it in their voices when the announcers are bored, it's not going to get the fans to watch anyway...from these little kids to MLB...if you're getting the commentary delivered in a flat monotone, I wouldn't want to watch it, either...no matter how good the game is.

The announcers have to know what they're doing, too...and make it fun for people to listen, as well as watch. I'd rather hear a radio broadcast of a girl's game with an excited, hyped up, announcer than watch even the Red Sox play a game where it's that flat, unenthusiastic "Oh...look...he hit the ball." Know what I mean? Granted, I've never heard anyone give comentary on a MLB game (or even Minor League game) when they didn't sound excited about the plays, but still...they need to have the same spark, being as interested in the game, as whoever is actually playing the game...boy, girl, man, or woman.

[NotAboutEgo]

Amen, JeepingBaseball. To the guy from New england who made the comment about softball... I don't think anyone is trying to bash softball here. We're just saying that women should not be told by anyone that they should be playing and can only play softball.

[Brian McKenna]

i agree that men have definitely stood in the way of women doing many things including sports but i'll also say that demand has a lot to do with it as well and that males are not 100% to blame as much of the argument claims

the depression seriously affected all businesses, especially the weaker ones - mlb baseball was very strong so the effects were less but many minor league teams and entire leagues folded, as well as, in the negro leagues

the oldtime media was definitely anti-female athletics but that was a reflection of society where many female athletes outside tennis and golf were seen in an unsavory light - sometimes degraded as prostitutes or lesbians - that is why the aagpbl took efforts to portray their athletes in a different manner

actually i thought the wnba had been on espn for quite awhile - i also have never seen female baseball on tv

[JeepingBaseball]

there stereotype of women athletes being lesbians burns me to no end :mad:

While I admit there are some very well known and extremely talented lesbian athletes, but damn it, not all of us are lesbians!! :mad:

[NotAboutEgo]

You are so right, JeepingBaseball. I have been labeled as a lesbian many times just because I play baseball and hockey, and where did these comments come from... men. The coed roller hockey league is a prime example of that. Young guys with huge egos have a huge problem with women playing hockey, so they have to make crude and offensive comments at us while we play. They also tend to want to hit us for no other reason than because we are women. I was also labeled as a lesbian when I played in a women's ice hockey league while I was in college back in the early to mid 1990's. Some of the old attitudes of the past are still present today.

When are those guys who still make those comments going to let go of their extreme insecurity and egos that develop from that insecurity to accept women as athletes?

[NotAboutEgo]

i agree that men have definitely stood in the way of women doing many things including sports but i'll also say that demand has a lot to do with it as well and that males are not 100% to blame as much of the argument claims

the oldtime media was definitely anti-female athletics but that was a reflection of society where many female athletes outside tennis and golf were seen in an unsavory light - sometimes degraded as prostitutes or lesbians - that is why the aagpbl took efforts to portray their athletes in a different manner -- as posted by bkmckenna

The demand you are speaking of also has its roots back to women being dominated by men, no matter what angle you look at it from. Why do you think those brave women who kicked the status quo aside and who played tennis, basketball, golf, baseball, and whatever other sports were labeled as lesbians? It has everything to do with how society viewed women... as people who's "place" was in the home and kitchen, cooking and cleaning, taking care of the children and their husbands, not being allowed to work outside the home for income, etc. And where did society get those ideas that that is exactly what women should be doing and that they should not be doing things such as playing sports because it was not "lady-like" and not right for women? It stems from men and their egos. You can analyze it until hell freezes over, and this is the conclusion one will always come to.

Why did women have to fight to earn the right to vote in the U.S., and it wasn't until after years of fighting and protesting and suffering physically and mentally and doing everything they could, they finally won this right in 1920... not even 100 years ago and our nation is 230 years old?

What other things have women had to fight for that men have seen as their natural rights just because they are men? What things do women continue to fight for now? Why is it that Little League Baseball, Inc. has created a boys'-only softball league but has yet to create a girls'-only baseball league, despite the fact that there are WAY more girls playing baseball in this country than there are boys playing softball. I have absolutely no problem with boys playing softball if that's what they choose to do, but I have a huge problem with girls being told that they can't play baseball and not having girls' baseball leagues provided to them. And yes, little girls ALSO put up with a lot of crap in many leagues when they want to play baseball.

How can there be demand when so many things in our society squash things down so much to diminish the demand for female sports? Women and girls are still fighting on many levels in our society in the U.S., regardless of what anyone says, and this has been happening for far too long.

If TV stations would have started televising women's sports at the same time men's sports were beginning to be televised, I'm sure there would be a huge market for them now. That, in and of itself, is sexist that it did not happen. But of course, the woman's place was in the home at that time.

You can't tell me that there is more support and demand for dart championships, fishing, bowling and poker games on TV than there is for fast-paced, interesting women's sports on TV! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Read Leslie Heaphy.

[JeepingBaseball]

I played soccer as a kid, and was placed in an all boys gym class while in high school because i was a little too rough and competetive. Been labeled everything under the sun every sinced. When i started playing baseball, some guy had the nerve to ask me "is that where lesbians meet? in the park 'to play' it safe?" I was so furious. Beyond furious. :mad:

This is why I dont understand why in the year 2006 will still have to put up with that crap. Gentlemen, what the hell is the big deal? Give us our opportunity to play just as it was given to you. We're not trying to steal your precious spotlight, your precious money, or even bruise your precious ego. You can stroke it all you want on your own, you dont need our help.

I dont care if youre white, black, asian, latin, orange or from planet ozark. I dont care if youre a teenager, a single mom, or a 40 yr old professional. I dont care if you straight, gay, bi, or transexual. I dont care if youre a republican, a democrat, or an independant. I dont care if you are on welfare, worked at mcdonalds for the last 8 years or you have a house on the gold coast....

This is baseball. Its a game. It's an all american pastime enjoyed by all. Shame on you for restricting it according to stereotype and bigotry.

[wamby]

bkmckenna, are you from PA? I thought only locals knew about Eleanor Engle.

The Topps 1953 Archive set contains a retro-card of Eleanor Engle.

[Brian McKenna]

[
You can't tell me that there is more support and demand for dart championships, fishing, bowling and poker games on TV than there is for fast-paced, interesting women's sports on TV! GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

.

i don't get that either - though poker has found a niche

sorry i didn't mean to spark anything by the lesbian comment - i was actually saying that hopefully that was a stereotype of the past that was being phased out - obviously by the reaction that's not the case but hopefully things are progressing along these lines

an effective marketing campaign to promote female athletics should be based on the value of the competition and presented with a positive approach rather than dwelling on the negatives of the past - i would think that if the campaign is waged with constant references to males and their egos or their oppression of women that people are going to turn a deaf ear to it

[sandlot]

To the guy from New england who made the comment about softball... I don't think anyone is trying to bash softball here. We're just saying that women should not be told by anyone that they should be playing and can only play softball.The guy from New England certainly understood and accepts that point, made with sledge-upon-anvil delicacy. But softball-bashing was hardly the subject of what he was attempting to communicate, merely an aside. He also writes, incidentally, as a man who put in more many hours wearing leotards and exercising at a barre than he ever put into taking grounders or catching popups wearing a glove. He is no stranger to sterotypes -- based upon gender, religion, origin, sexual preference or race -- or to their debilitating effects, which the non-softball-related part of the post tried, apparently unsuccessfully, to address. All these forms of discrimination have been and continue to be present in baseball because they are present inside our heads. Thumping male egos will prove no more successful than will male chest-thumping, because it is a feature of human nature that, given strong enough passions, we will almost invariably turn ourselves into that which we most detest. The best way for ego of any sort to be eliminated is not by driving it out, but by letting it go (in this respect, ego is much like anger). People will willingly sacrifice ego for many reasons, and one of the more common is coming to the realization of just how much effort ego-maintenance requires, and how much easier and more productive life can be when one simply drops it, puts the energy elsewhere, and moves on. They will let go of ego when they see a better or more attractive alternative. And they'll do it for love. But they won't do it for money because money rewards ego, not humility, and big money sustains and rewards big ego. Just my two cents.

[NotAboutEgo]

I see what you are saying, Sandlot. I wasn't trying to say that the guy from the East Coast who moved to the South was insinuating that any of us were bashing softball, but I wanted to explain myself before someone jumped to conclusions about it. It seems that when someone has brought up a topic on here and when others put their two cents in, some things are not perceived as they were meant to be. Perhaps we all should explain ourselves more thoroughly.

I agree with all that you said about ego. People need to learn to let go of it but keep their self-pride, because losing all your self-pride is the opposite of having ego but is just as bad (just a comment by me).

When the women on here who have made comments about male ego write about that topic, they are expressing their thoughts, experiences, and frustrations about it. They are not here just to bash males. I know there are plenty of women out there who have huge egos and who love to bash males (jeez, I work with so many of them), but the topic of this thread and many others in the Women's Baseball category have been about our experiences of being told throughout our lives that we cannot play baseball and about how we are inferior to men in so many ways. We are not doubting or trying to hide the fact that women do have egos and do plenty of bashing, too. That, however, is NOT my intent on here.

In addition to years of fighting to be able to play hockey, baseball, and to do other things deemed "male activities," I have also had some great experiences playing sports with guys. I am a regular at the Detroit Tigers Fantasy Camps in Lakeland, Florida and at Comerica Park in Detroit. Besides receiving rude and crude and unnecessary comments from a few of the people who are members, I have had nothing but fun, positive, happy experiences there, and the guys are nothing but supportive of and respectful to the females who are also memebers. I am friends with many of the guys who attend the camps and activities regularly, and I cherish those friendships. Actually, I have more guy friends than female friends because of my affiliation with the camps.

With that being said, the discussions on this blog have focused on how women are still having to fight for the chance to play sports and to do other things we should not have to fight to do. We know not every guy out there is sexist in this regard, but there is still a general concensus about the attitudes associated with such situations.

Just my comments and thoughts...

[LP fan]

[I][COLOR="DarkOrange"]


What other things have women had to fight for that men have seen as their natural rights just because they are men? What things do women continue to fight for now? Why is it that Little League Baseball, Inc. has created a boys'-only softball league but has yet to create a girls'-only baseball league, despite the fact that there are WAY more girls playing baseball in this country than there are boys playing softball. I have absolutely no problem with boys playing softball if that's what they choose to do, but I have a huge problem with girls being told that they can't play baseball and not having girls' baseball leagues provided to them. And yes, little girls ALSO put up with a lot of crap in many leagues when they want to play baseball.

How can there be demand when so many things in our society squash things down so much to diminish the demand for female sports? Women and girls are still fighting on many levels in our society in the U.S., regardless of what anyone says, and this has been happening for far too long.

.

I think the answer is quite simple - you women really need to get out there and start your own leagues.for the girls that want to play..raise money to either build ballparks or share the ones that are there...to rant about fighting for 'rights' and such has little to do with this...fact is, there are very few mothers over the years that have done anything concrete about getting places for their girls to play..why make such a fuss about having to play on boys teams? get out there and start your girls little league..its got to start somewhere..Baden Powell had an idea for boys activity, and look how that took off .....don't whine about attitudes, bias, blah blah blah, get out there and start something...

[NotAboutEgo]

For your info, LP, there are MANY of us out "there" who are forming women's and girls' teams and leagues and all that, and we are making great progress. But, problem is, we still have people like you who are standing in the way saying that it's because of us that we haven't been able to do things. Unless you are involved with any of it, you have no idea what one has to encounter. It's sort of hard to start pro leagues without financial backing, and attitudes have every bit to do with that. So, no matter how much work we do and how much time and money we spend on it, there are still sticks in the mud who we have to fight and trample to be able to do something without having to put up a fight. Seems a bit wrong to me.

[NotAboutEgo]

Why don't you look into the history of the WNBA about how the founders of the league had to fight for 11 hard years to make it happen, and it WASN'T just about money. It had every bit to do with male egos. Shouldn't be happening. I guess we'll just have to start rolling over all the men and narrow-minded women who get in our way with steam rollers so things can happen. :clapping

[LP fan]

Why don't you look into the history of the WNBA about how the founders of the league had to fight for 11 hard years to make it happen, and it WASN'T just about money. It had every bit to do with male egos. Shouldn't be happening. I guess we'll just have to start rolling over all the men and narrow-minded women who get in our way with steam rollers so things can happen. :clapping

I wasn't really commenting on professional leagues - I think you have to start with the young ones first, and that will come later...if there are a lot of young girls that will start playing baseball, great, get your little leagues for girls started, and let it grow....maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you would find a lot of stick in the muds opposed to little league baseball for girls - I would have certainly supported my daughter in this, but she preferred dancing and soccer.....all I was saying is, if you want this to happen, make it happen....its just natural that men volunteer more for their sons activities...male identifying is crucial to young boys upbringing, and i think the vice versa is true as well

[Chelle]

Women should be able to do anything men can do....as long as they can do it at the same level

If they can hit a major league fastball...let them play.

But, the minute there are restrictions, laws, special rules...then "blah"

[NotAboutEgo]

Yes, LPFan, it helps to start at the little league level, but it's also important to start at other levels as well. If you just start at the little league level, you have people asking, "Why should my daughter play baseball instead of softball when there are no college scholarships given for it, when there are no adult leagues for her to play on when she's older, when there are no college teams, etc... when there is nothing for her beyond the little league level, so she is told to go back to softball?"

Believe me, I have experienced a lot first hand by beign involved with women's baseball for almost 9 years. It takes an effort on all levels at the same time to make it happen. It actually makes more sense to start women's adult teams and leagues and then to create everything around that, which is pretty much how it is happening in most areas. I'm not saying it couldn't have and shouldn't have worked with creating girls' little league programs first, but because of how history happened, the adult leagues first is the most effective way now.

Also, many men and women are currently trying to start girls' leagues out there, using the same fields as males do, but there is STILL a lot of flack given out. When there are narrow-minded people controlling the use of fields, it can be a big road block. Raising money is a good idea, but it isn't successful in every case. Been there, done that. Not everyone is willing to give out money, espeically with the way the economy is in some areas (like mine) right now. Not saying it can't happen, but it makes it much harder.

Bottom line is, we are still fighting when we are out there creating those teams and leagues and fields and whatever, and we shouldn't have to. That is OUR point. It's hard enough to start something from scratch, but one shouldn't have to face such adversary to do it.

[JeepingBaseball]

LP Fan,

Women have been doing this for years on years trying. We'll continue to fight. One of our latest fights in which we were defeated was trying to get women's baseball in the Olympics for 2012 and we were shot down almost instantly. It's discouranging, and I've seen alot of "i need to take a break from all this negatively" lately.

Matter of fact, many people are trying to go overseass to play in Australia where women's baseball is more acceptable and making waves out there. I know of 4 women who made the cross over and doing more baseball there today then she ever did in her life over here.

Apparently, it's more acceptable over there than here. And for America... I think thats an embarrassment for us.

[NotAboutEgo]

You are so right, Chelle.

[LP fan]

Just putting this out there, ladies: is it possible that most girls prefer to play softball/fastball to baseball, and that this is really impeding progress in girlsbaseball, because if thats the case, there might never be enough girls players to make it viable...??

[JeepingBaseball]

I dispute that possibiltiy for the reason being "we dont have baseball, just play softball, its readily available". So it becomes "it's better than nothing at all"

[NotAboutEgo]

No LP Fan, you are VERY wrong. Most women prefer to play baseball over softball. I have recruited at several softball leagues in my area, and the answer I get almost every time is, "I would love to play baseball. I didn't think there was anything out there and slow pitch is the only thing I could find, so that's why I'm playing it, but I'd rather play something more challenging and at a higher level." I have also heard very often, "I haven't played in all-women's leagues since high school (in some cases college), so playing in an all-women's baseball league would be great! I'm sick of playing with men."

Until you have experienced the sexism and until you have gotten out there and have worked within the framework of women's baseball and what is going on, you have absolutely no way of knowing what it's about. The "opinion" that women prefer softball over baseball is just another stereotypical, uneducated response and has been fabricated by our society. Regardless of whether you meant it that way or not, that is the common response, and it is VERY inaccurate.

JeepingBaseball is right. Women's baseball in Canada, Australia, and Japan is further ahead than it is here in the U.S. in terms of organizations such as colleges, high schools, little league programs, and even governmental organizations helping it and supporting it. Did you know that the Canadian government provides support for women's baseball in Canada? Did you know that there are women's baseball teams and leagues in both Japan and Australia, and there are women's baseball teams in high school in Japan... 2 nations that the U.S. media has labeled as being sexist against women?

Why do you think this is so?

[NotAboutEgo]

The problem isn't that there isn't enough interest from girls and women to play baseball. Perhaps you should propose your theory to John Kovach and others. I'm not being sarcastic here. Just stating the facts. Some men on here have accused me of being sarcastic and bashing men whenever I point some of the facts out. Just trying to make my point clear. But then again, why should I have to defend myself?

Just letting you know that your theory is very inaccurate, LP Fan. I have a lot of experience working in women's baseball and with girls who are interested in playing baseball. There is a LOT of interest out there... enough to have a Little League, Inc. girls' baseball division, but the good ole' boys at Little League, Inc. are totally against it because of their sexist, egotistical views.

Again, just stating the facts.

[JeepingBaseball]

Also in addition to women's baseball in other countries... I dont know about Canada or Japan, but I know in Australia, there are leagues in which women get PAID to play baseball... just like our men do here in the MLB. But for women in America? Not so fast... and it's a shame.

[JeepingBaseball]

(Australia &Japan)... 2 nations that the U.S. media has labeled as being sexist against women?

Why do you think this is so?

Completely baffles me. We mentioned it earlier in the thread about women ballplayers being labeled lesbians... Well... In Australia, lesbians are open and out and proud and all that stuff. I believe they have civil unions (marriage) and it's perfectly legal to adopt children. I believe they are treated the same as anyone else. Either the folks down under are not so quick to judge or label anybody or they have come to accept the facts of a mixed society. Although it has nothing to do with baseball, I strongly believe the attitude of the general society at large over there has contributed to the success of women's baseball in terms of acceptance, marketing, fan base, ect.

I dont know anything about Japan's view on things there in a general society setting, so I cant comment on Japan.

Leaves alot to be said on this side of the world.

[5LilPlayers]

I am a regular at the Detroit Tigers Fantasy Camps in Lakeland, Florida and at Comerica Park in Detroit.

How, exactly does that work? The Tigers, specifically, is the one I want to go to. Not really a fan, but the Tigers are the closest team for me. Checked their site, saw the itenary and all that...but it still confuses me a bit as to how it works with the rooms and such.

I did notice that they said only 5% of those signed are females....this coming camp, I want to be one of those 5%!! LOL

I just hope I can get the money saved up...I'm putting all of the money I make from my jewelry sales into a "Fantasy Camp fund". If not this coming camp....maybe next year.

[5LilPlayers]

I think the answer is quite simple - you women really need to get out there and start your own leagues.

And that's part of the problem. "We women" shouldn't have to. Any league formed, especially for the girls who want to play, SHOULD be either co-ed from the beginning or start with "all-girl" teams.


for the girls that want to play..raise money to either build ballparks or share the ones that are there...

And what about the smaller towns? If a town only has 600...even a small 1000 residents...maybe there's not enough girls who want to play to make it worth building their own parks and sharing a park wouldn't work if there's only 5 or 6 girls who want to play. Those girls should be allowed to joi the "boy's" team...IF they are good enough, and prove themselves in tryouts.


fact is, there are very few mothers over the years that have done anything concrete about getting places for their girls to play..why make such a fuss about having to play on boys teams? get out there and start your girls little league..its got to start somewhere..Baden Powell had an idea for boys activity, and look how that took off .....don't whine about attitudes, bias, blah blah blah, get out there and start something...

Girls are allowed in "boy's" Little League. But be it on a "boy's" team on if the girls form their own league, it does take money...and that money isn't always easy to come by. Sure, if you live in a large city, or an smaller town where there are a lot of little girls who want to play...there's a chance it could happen.

And yes, "we" have to start somewhere...but what happens when some of those "little girls" don't want to play anymore or lots of families move (due to jobs, a lot of people are leaving my area -- it's getting harder and harder to find jobs here, but luckily I am in a relatively big city)...leaving that once "popular" girls league with only a handful of players? What if the companies who back the teams decide not to the following year? What if the girls want to play but their fund raising simply doesn't produce the funds to even start a league in the first place? Simply "starting" isn't enough...we, females, need those "older" leagues, be it playing with the boys OR our own leagues supported by ALL (males AND females), for the little girls to "graduate" to...NOT just ones to "start" in.

[NotAboutEgo]

I am not quite sure about how women are treated in Japan, either, but I do know, through being involved in women's baseball, that there are women's high school and collegiate baseball teams there. And, I do know, that the country is far ahead of the U.S. in terms of support for women baseball players. Not sure if this is still the case, but the head coach of the Japanese national team was a former Major Leaguer... the first one to play in the U.S., I believe. Also, companies and people in Japan are much more open to supporting (financially and otherwise) women's baseball competitions. The Japanese team even helps other countries' national teams travel to Japan to play.

Where is our national support for OUR women's national baseball team here? USA Baseball just jumped on board in 2004 to create a women's national team, even though it didn't have much to do with the team beyond organizing the tryouts and such. Seems that the organization is starting to get its stuff together now with naming Julie Croteau as head coach of the team for 2006.

Kudos to the AAU for making women's baseball an official sport in 2003. It's one of the few national U.S. organizations that is helping in its own way. But, where are the other organizations that support boys' and men's baseball but not girls' and women's baseball? Some people have made comments on here that we women are complaining but are doing nothing when they don't know us and what we have done. It's not too hard to figure out where the sexism is and that we shouldn't have to fight for something so much.

From what I have seen and heard, the Aussies are much more in support of women's baseball than the good ole' Americans are, which supports what JeepingBaseball has posted.

If we are the greatest country on the planet, why are we behind in the effort to open up to and support women's baseball?

[5LilPlayers]

Women should be able to do anything men can do....as long as they can do it at the same level

If they can hit a major league fastball...let them play.

But, the minute there are restrictions, laws, special rules...then "blah"

:) :dance :p

Couldn't have said it better myself. I want to play by "men's" rules....if women aren't good enough, then no...they shouldn't be allowed to play.

Maybe that's where this poll went wrong? It wasn't JUST "Should women play?" so much as it was (implied...by MY understanding) "Should women play WITH men IF they have the same or better skills as their male counterparts?"

In a seperate women's league (like the AAGPBL with their slightly shorter base paths and pitcher's mounds), then sure....but if we suddenly have two different base paths and two seperate pitcher's mounds on the same diamond - one set for males, one set for females (professional...or even down to the grade school level)....then no, girls/women shouldn't play with the boys/men.

I don't play catcher...never have....but I'm perfectly willing to (and have) used my body to try to knock the ball out of the guy's hand trying to tag me out at home. In fact...that was my favorite part of playing baseball. In softball (played through grade school) we weren't allowed to slide AT ALL. I loved to come barreling into the plate (jr. high and beyond), getting my body as low as possible and twisting to avoid the tag...but if you're blocking me...I WILL run you over!

My nails are short...so I don't worry about "breaking a nail".

Married with 5 kids, people can say "She must be a lesbian" all they want...won't bother me any. And what's the big deal about being a lesbian anyway???? I know, in a lot of sports, it's used as a negative comment (usually by men, but there have been women I've heard it from as well)...but, for me, as long as YOU know who you are...whether you are lesbian or not...well, "stick and stones", ya know?

I will, if I play again...and did, while I was still playing...put in a 110% effort when/while playing...girl's league, men's league, as well as for the co-ed leagues I was on. Good or bad...even crashing into someone...I've had fewer injuries than some of my male teammates...I played with a broken wrist (MAN was that odd holding the bat...and I broke it in GYMNASTICS...not baseball!)...women can go as far as men will let them...but a lot of "women and baseball" does have a lot to do with the men seeing us as "objects" rather than teammates. Again...NOT saying all men think like that...but from personal experience, I did have one rude male teammate before who told me...a LOT less tactfully, paraphrasing here, "I'd rather have you as a lover." I won't type the actual words...but I'm sure you can guess. That was after our second game....thankfully, by the end of the season, his eyes were opened (there were two of "us" on the team) and he saw how much we did, how much we sacrificed, for the team that season. Bad turned good.....now, if we could just make more men (and yes, some women, too!) see how good "we", as women, could be....maybe those gender-biased views could come crashing down a lot sooner.

[NotAboutEgo]

To 5LilPlayers, the Tigers Fantasy Camp lasts for a week in Lakeland (there are 2 camps in the winter... each one lasts for a week... the 2nd week is definitely the week to go to). There are 2 games a day for each team, except for on Monday. On Monday of each camp, there is a clinic in the morning led by former Tigers, and then you eat lunch, then you play a game in the afternoon. The rest of the days of camp, there is a game in the morning, then lunch, then each team has a game in the afternoon. Playoffs and the championship are at the end of the week. Each team gets to play the former Tigers for two innings on Saturday at Joker Marchant Stadium. a couple of years ago, night games were added to the schedule. Each team gets to play one night game at Henley Field, the old spring training stadium for the Tigers, which is close to Tigertown. It's a really good field and a good place to play. Plus, night games are great!

There are activities going on all week... autograph night to get former Tigers' autographs, a camp dinner at a local steakhouse, photo day on the field to get photos with former Tigers, and other camp-sponsored activities. Also, veteran campers organize their own events... karaoke in the hotel lounge, bowling, nights out at local eateries, dancing nights, karaoke at local clubs, golf outings a few days before the 2nd week camp starts, etc. As he saying goes... "baseball all day and party all night"!

If you didn't even like baseball, you would have an absolute blast there. It is definitely the time of your life when you go, you make some terrific lifelong friends (even with the former pros), and the memories are well worth the cost. I was so blown away my first time at camp in 2001. I have been there 5 times, and I have done some mini camps at Comerica Park. Those are fun, too, and there are a few of the same activities, but they are a watered down version of the Lakeland camps.

The cost of the camp includes full authentic home and road uniforms, airfare, hotel, most meals, and all camp-sponsored activities. Like I said, the experience, the memories, and the friendships are well worth the cost. We have heard many times over that the Tigers camp is the best one by far... the best value for the money, the longest, has the most activities and fun, etc.

If you have anymore questions, please feel free to ask. Would love to see ya there!

[NotAboutEgo]

Amen, 5LilPlayers. I applaud you, and anyone else, who has time to raise 5 kids plus play sports and do other things. If there's a will, there's a way. I don't have kids, yet, and I feel so busy most of the time! Can't imagine having kids to take care of in addition to myself!

I really hope you can make it to the Tigers fantasy camp. Would love to see you there and meet you to become friends.

[5LilPlayers]

Amen, 5LilPlayers. I applaud you, and anyone else, who has time to raise 5 kids plus play sports and do other things. If there's a will, there's a way. I don't have kids, yet, and I feel so busy most of the time! Can't imagine having kids to take care of in addition to myself!

I really hope you can make it to the Tigers fantasy camp. Would love to see you there and meet you to become friends.

Well...I don't actually play right now...except with the kids. But I think I get a better workout with them. Especially just a smiple "game of catch"....boy's got my arm....but oh...his aim is HORRIBLE. LOL None of the kids are in a league right now, either...so "playing" right now is more "family time"...away from the computer, away from the video games...getting out to DO something. But the kids love it. The baby also has my arm...(threw her bottle about 30 - 35 feet...from living room into a bathroom we have off the dining room) but being only 21 months, no real aim, either. ;) Granted, the oldest daughter is really turning out to be quite the little pitcher...she's got speed, she's got control, and already has 2 different types of pitches (two-seam fastball and a curve). I don't let her do it too often, only for fear of wrecking her arm, she is only 7 at the moment. If she has any hope of really playing by the time she gets older, I'm not going to risk taking her out of the game before she even has a chance to play. She complains about it all the time, though..."Mom, it's been 2 days...I can pitch today, can't I? PLEASE!!!!" LOL

I'm hoping to have them all in shape by next year...I'm determined to find us ALL a team to join, except maybe the baby, she's still too little. But since the YMCA has teams for kids as young as 3, the oldest 4 can play and my husband can watch the kids while I play! LOL He's more the football type. We watch games together...football and baseball....he looks at me "What the heck was that?" "Well, hon, he should have..." or I'll look at him "What the heck was that?" "Well, babe, it's 1st and down and..." Even after the explinations, neither one of us REALLY knows what the other is talking about. LOL

I admit...loving baseball as much as I do, I have kind of pushed...okay, well, SHOVED...the kids into baseball. If they didn't love it...or if they ever get to a point where they don't want to play...of course I'm not going to force them...but for now, helping them improve is a great family thing. To me, it sure beats that whole Parker Brothers or whatever board game maker's "Make a Family Game Night" theory. LOL

The only problem I have here is that in tee-ball (YMCA) they let them run the bases backwards or normally. It's great for the kids to get SOME of the fundamentals (fielding and hitting)....but I think they should make them run to first after the ball is hit, not "either" direction (most of the lefties are actually encouraged to go to 3rd instead of first). They do have a double second base (and 2 second basemen)...which, I admit, is interesting when they're trying to get someone out...poor fielders don't know which second basemen to throw to half the time. But they should teach them how to play properly. When my son started school, he got on the school's tee-ball team, and they had to run the bases properly....I'd been teaching my son, thankfully...but one of his teammates was in that YMCA "run in any direction" league...and that poor little boy...took him until the second to last game before he finally remembered to run to 1st!

Thankfully, I have mastered the art of "multi-tasking" quite well. I can poor a drink for one child, read one of my books - as long as it opens flat, and write some letters for the middle one (who's starting school this year) all at the same time. LOL

I think I'm going to end up joining EBay or something to get more of my jewelry sold quicker...I REALLY want to go to that fantasy camp but my husband thinks it's too expensive. He's cheap, what can I say? LOL I did show him the list of what all that money covered...but he still thinks it's too much and told me if I wanted to go, I have to pay for it myself....being a stay-at-home mom...well...the only thing I have is my jewelry right now...unless I suddenly write the great american novel and get someone to pay up front for publishing rights...and I don't see that happening since the only place I've ever been "published" so far was in Parents Magazine.

Oh yeah....rooms....how do they divide the women? I mean...I know you can do single or double rooms...but what if the requests equal out so that there's an odd number of females who want the double room option? Uhh....it's late, I'm tired....did that question even make sense? LOL

[NotAboutEgo]

Great background info on you and your family, 5LilPlayers. You certainly have the right approach... exposing your children to baseball and teaching them the proper mechanics, fundamentals, and rules, but not forcing them to play if they lose interest. That's a mistake people too often make. Kids should be exposed to many things, but if they decide they aren't interested in something, they shouldn't be forced to continue doing it.

Also, parents shouldn't see their kids as a "meal ticket" for when they get older. I have a 2nd cousin who has been into dirt bike racing since he was about 3 years old. He just turned 10 and he's already broken his collar bone and other bones and had to have pins put in his body. I'm not saying he shouldn't be doing it because of the potential for injuries, but his parents push him to do it, they got him his first dirt bike when he was still a toddler, and he is busy every weekend in the summer and most weekends year round in competitions. He already has a complex about himself (huge ego) because of how they feed his young mind with ideas that he's the greatest there is. I know exactly what they are thinking... "make him into a champion so he can pay our way and we won't have to work." He is probably going to be burned out before he becomes a teenager or shortly after because of how much they push him. I hardly believe that a toddler can make a choice about things they want to do. Yes, in a lot of cases, toddlers and very young children clearly show they have an interest and talent in something, but the idea is to expose them to it and let them go from there... but not pushing them into it and seeing them as your way out.

I absolutely don't get where the YMCA is coming from with letting the kids run in any direction they want to. I can understand wanting the kids to be creative, independent, thinking for themselves, and helping them get there, but issues arise like the ones you mentioned... the kids being confused when they join other teams because they were not taught the proper playing rules. Then, they most likely get ridiculed because of not knowing how to play properly, and that adds yet more issues and teasing and all that.

As far as your husband saying you can pay for camp yourself, I think that's a negative approach/comment. I can understand if he thinks the cost will interfere with some family expenses/savings, but the approach is wrong. If he would have said that if you want to go, it will require you to do something to save up for it, it's a more positive approach. Perhaps he said it that way, but I took it that he said you can pay for it yourself.

My ex told me that when I first started my women's hardball team. He said his money wasn't going to be spent on it, so I needed to get another job (I was making more money than him at that time) to fund it, but yet he was spending all kinds of money on his club events and stuff like that. His justification was that he was doing it to make more money and baseball wasn't going to make any money for us, so I shouldn't be doing it. COMPLETE NONSENSE!!!

Of course, he was so quick to point out that we were practicing on crappy fields in the not-so-good areas of Detroit, so I told him to start opening his wallet so we could practice on much better fields in much better neighborhoods (that field was free). He shut up about it after that. He continued to complain the whole time I was building the team and playing baseball (he was incredibly jealous and insecure about it for whatever reason... his ego). Guess he just had a problem with his little wife not doing her wifely duties!

To answer your question about the room situation at camp, women room with women, and men room with men. If there's an uneven amount of women there, one will get very lucky and will have a private room at no extra cost. That happened to me my first year at camp. There were 2 other women there, but they both got private rooms (costs more), so I ended up getting a private room at no extra cost.

[5LilPlayers]

I can understand if he thinks the cost will interfere with some family expenses/savings, but the approach is wrong. If he would have said that if you want to go, it will require you to do something to save up for it, it's a more positive approach. Perhaps he said it that way, but I took it that he said you can pay for it yourself.

It was a little of both. We're, by no means, "rich"....but we're not "poverty stricken", either. He makes a good living. I think it really was more of...trying to get me to "get out there" and sell my stuff. I've been making jewelry for about 2 years, and the stuff that hasn't sold yet...it's about $6,000 worth, if it all sells "as priced". Not to mention I have a HUGE bowl of stuff I still have to bag and price still. I want to get into the local arts and crafts shows, but usually by the time I hear of them, it's too late to get a booth....just my luck. LOL


To answer your question about the room situation at camp, women room with women, and men room with men. If there's an uneven amount of women there, one will get very lucky and will have a private room at no extra cost. That happened to me my first year at camp. There were 2 other women there, but they both got private rooms (costs more), so I ended up getting a private room at no extra cost.

I'll sign up for a double...but secretly pray for a single. I'm a bit of a night owl...okay..."night owl" was a term invented for me...LOL Wouldn't want to keep my roommate up all night, especially if it's someone who's not used to it. I'm used to working on 3 or 4 hours of sleep...can't go to bed until the last child's down...and have to be up when the first child awakens. And it never fails that at least one won't go to sleep until 2, and the first one (usually the baby) gets up around 7...and I have to read for a bit before I go to sleep, too. One of these days, I'll get on a real schedule......maybe. LOL

[NotAboutEgo]

I guess you taking care of 5 kids has NOTHING to do with work. OK, I will stop now. That's interesting that you make and sell jewelry. I'm a graphic designer and artist and always thought that would be something fun and interesting.

I'm VERY MUCH a night owl as well. I love staying up late and sleeping in a bit. I'm never going to be a morning person, no matter how much I get up early for work. Not my preference at all.

I was thinking about what you said about your daughter pitching. Tell her that it's very important to rest a couple of days in between so she doesn't over work her arm and damage it. I'm a pitcher, and a couple of seasons ago I ended up pitching whole first games of DH's and then part or most of the 2nd games of DH's. I also was forced to pitch 2 days in a row a lot because of the lack of pitching on the teams I played on. Not a good idea at all. Now, I have to take a break from pitching, because I have pain in my upper bicep when I throw, and sometimes I have some pain in my triceps. I'm sure it has something to do with overuse and not resting it like I should. I'm not sure what to do about it to get it to heal. I threw on Saturday for the first time in months, and I thought it would have healed by then, but it was in a lot of pain. I'm working with an accupressure therapist right now, and he is trying to get it worked out, but not sure if it will ever go away for good.

A kid should be able to throw curve balls and other pitches (except for the screw ball) without doing any damage at all if they use the proper mechanics. Of course, that part is extremely important. If you know the right mechanics and can teach them to your kids, then there is no more risk involved with throwing a curve ball than throwing any other pitch. If you aren't aware of the proper mechanics, don't have your kids throw a curve, or get them pitching instruction from someone who really knows the proper mechanics.

I took pitching lessons for a year from Geoff Zahn who played in MLB for about 13 years. He agrees completely with what I've said. Too many people think that throwing a curve will damage a growing kid's arm, but that is a big misconception and if it happens, is due to using improper mechanics. The arm slot and position and motion when throwing a curve is the exact same as when throwing any other pitch. The difference is in finger placement on the ball and placement and movement of the wrist. I have never had arm problems or pain from thrownig a curve ball.

Some people say that women shouldn't throw curves, either, because her hips will impede arm motion and that will cause arm damage. That is absolutely RIDICULOUS!!! The arm slot, as I mentioned, is the same as a fast ball or any other pitch. It should be in the same slot/position by the ear as a quarterback's arm position when throwing a football. The difference is in the finger positioning and the placement and movement of the wrist.

Web Ball... www.webball.com... is a great resource for baseball. You can also go to Zahn's web site... Master Pitching Institute at www.masterpitching.com.

It's VERY important to rest the arm for a couple of days at least.

[CuriousBoston]

As far as your husband saying you can pay for camp yourself, I think that's a negative approach/comment. I can understand if he thinks the cost will interfere with some family expenses/savings, but the approach is wrong. If he would have said that if you want to go, it will require you to do something to save up for it, it's a more positive approach. Perhaps he said it that way, but I took it that he said you can pay for it yourself.



There is a website somewhere that helps families figure out how much life insurance the mother/wife/homemaker should have, since most families don't have enough. Example: nurse, seamstress, laundress, chauffeur, short order cook, nursemaid, day care, tutor, at the usual wage rates. Perhaps if you worked that out. Heh...;)

Whether you work both inside and outside of the home, it's a good exercise for insurance purposes; opening eyes...I believe in opened eyes....:waving

[Outta Here]

I think women should definitely be able to play :clapping :gt

[5LilPlayers]

There is a website somewhere that helps families figure out how much life insurance the mother/wife/homemaker should have, since most families don't have enough. Example: nurse, seamstress, laundress, chauffeur, short order cook, nursemaid, day care, tutor, at the usual wage rates. Perhaps if you worked that out. Heh...;)

Whether you work both inside and outside of the home, it's a good exercise for insurance purposes; opening eyes...I believe in opened eyes....:waving
I figure, with what we do (the stay-at-home parent), based on an hourly rate for all that (nurse, doctor, teacher, nanny, etc.).....stay-at-home parents should make about 2 million a year. Now....if we could just find someone who'd pay us what we're worth...LOL

[5LilPlayers]

I guess you taking care of 5 kids has NOTHING to do with work. OK, I will stop now. That's interesting that you make and sell jewelry. I'm a graphic designer and artist and always thought that would be something fun and interesting.

I'm VERY MUCH a night owl as well. I love staying up late and sleeping in a bit. I'm never going to be a morning person, no matter how much I get up early for work. Not my preference at all.

I was thinking about what you said about your daughter pitching. Tell her that it's very important to rest a couple of days in between so she doesn't over work her arm and damage it. I'm a pitcher, and a couple of seasons ago I ended up pitching whole first games of DH's and then part or most of the 2nd games of DH's. I also was forced to pitch 2 days in a row a lot because of the lack of pitching on the teams I played on. Not a good idea at all. Now, I have to take a break from pitching, because I have pain in my upper bicep when I throw, and sometimes I have some pain in my triceps. I'm sure it has something to do with overuse and not resting it like I should. I'm not sure what to do about it to get it to heal. I threw on Saturday for the first time in months, and I thought it would have healed by then, but it was in a lot of pain. I'm working with an accupressure therapist right now, and he is trying to get it worked out, but not sure if it will ever go away for good.

A kid should be able to throw curve balls and other pitches (except for the screw ball) without doing any damage at all if they use the proper mechanics. Of course, that part is extremely important. If you know the right mechanics and can teach them to your kids, then there is no more risk involved with throwing a curve ball than throwing any other pitch. If you aren't aware of the proper mechanics, don't have your kids throw a curve, or get them pitching instruction from someone who really knows the proper mechanics.

I took pitching lessons for a year from Geoff Zahn who played in MLB for about 13 years. He agrees completely with what I've said. Too many people think that throwing a curve will damage a growing kid's arm, but that is a big misconception and if it happens, is due to using improper mechanics. The arm slot and position and motion when throwing a curve is the exact same as when throwing any other pitch. The difference is in finger placement on the ball and placement and movement of the wrist. I have never had arm problems or pain from thrownig a curve ball.

Some people say that women shouldn't throw curves, either, because her hips will impede arm motion and that will cause arm damage. That is absolutely RIDICULOUS!!! The arm slot, as I mentioned, is the same as a fast ball or any other pitch. It should be in the same slot/position by the ear as a quarterback's arm position when throwing a football. The difference is in the finger positioning and the placement and movement of the wrist.

Web Ball... www.webball.com... is a great resource for baseball. You can also go to Zahn's web site... Master Pitching Institute at www.masterpitching.com.

It's VERY important to rest the arm for a couple of days at least.
I love making my own jewelry, and they have these Czech Fire-Polished glass beads that somewhat mimic Swarovski crystals, but are only a fraction of the price (though I do work with Swarovski, other glass, wood, and more, too)...but for the price of the fire-polished glass...I don't wear jewelry often, but I do occassionally make something for myself, so I have at least one piece to match everything I own. LOL

"Mornings" should be banned...made illegal....something. LOL I've never been a morning person, but with kids...you have to at least have your eyes open, even if you're not "all there" yet. :)

The oldest girl knows she has to rest her arm (I try to go for at least 5 days between letting her "really" pitch, though I do let her toss the ball underhand during those resting days)...but it doesn't stop her from asking. LOL She just loves to pitch and she'd be out there practicing every day if I let her.

Underhand pitching...no big deal. In grade school...playing softball...I think I pitched every single game from 2nd grade until I was in 6th, and about 50% of our games when I was in K and 1st. Thankfully never had a problem, but underhand is so.....easy. I've never heard of arm injuries from underhand (slow-pitch)...is that even possible? LOL Baseball is my thing...so I haven't really delved much into the softball stuff as far as....anything, really....how often to rest the arm, what the differences are (other than the obvious stuff), etc. You can lambaste a softball and still only get a dribbler at times because that ball is so big and awkward...and if you're a slow runner (which I always have been), it's realy hard to beat out that throw to first when it goes right back to the pitcher. Yet another reason why I like baseball.

Wood, aluminum, alloy, bamboo...I've used all types of bats and still hit pretty much the same with them...granted, the aluminum and alloy's do tend to make the ball go a bit farther...but for me, same field (no actual fences/measurements), it does seem like it's only about a 5 - 15 foot difference between the wood/bamboo and aluminum/alloy bats. I'd like to get my own bamboo bat eventually...and I only have one wood one so far...did find a place where they sell 3-packs of wood bats...maple or ash...can't remember the brands, though...but they were pretty reasonable. My only problem....I'm going to need another bat caddy just for MY bats. LOL

[NotAboutEgo]

Wouldn't it be great to be paid to be a stay at home mom... paid what it's worth! :D :hp :laugh

About softball pitching... the underhand motion is natural so I believe that's why you don't really hear of injuries so much as with baseball pitchers. I don't get into the details about softball, either, as I don't like it at all. It's such a different game than baseball... it's unbelievable! :ughh

It's good you have a "hobby" to keep you happy when you are doing all that work at home. I her it can drive you crazy to spend all your time with kids, no matter how much you love them.

Love your post, CuriousBoston. You hit the ball right on the sweet spot with that one! :p :crazy

[Williamsburg2599]

Sorry,I know this post is a little old, but I have to ask one thing:
As long as a woman/girl has the talent to be on a team or play pro with males, she should be allowed to, but the girl shouldn't be on the team just because she is a girl. Does everyone agree with this?

Now I know I'm asking this a little late,but I just want to make sure everyone is on the same page here.

[sandlot]

Sorry,I know this post is a little old, but I have to ask one thing:
As long as a woman/girl has the talent to be on a team or play pro with males, she should be allowed to, but the girl shouldn't be on the team just because she is a girl. Does everyone agree with this?

Now I know I'm asking this a little late,but I just want to make sure everyone is on the same page here.I agree, but would suggest a change in the wording of the question from ".. she should be allowed to...", to "...she should not be prevented from playing." The word "allowed" suggests someone has the authority and power to prevent her participation, and to my way of thinking the problem starts right there. Discrimination cuts lots of ways. For example, on one hand, Tiger Woods is really supportive of women's golf. But I was really disappointed in the stand that he and a number of other pros took on letting a disabled golfer compete professionally using a cart to get around. They opposed it because, in their eyes, walking the course was part of the sport. There's almost always some excuse for discrimination that sounds reasonable.

[5LilPlayers]

Okay....golf is definitely not my sport so forgive me if I'm missing something but....

How COULD a disabled golfer even play golf if he needed a cart to get around?

I had to read that three times to make sure I understood...and I'm thinking if there are health problems or injuries where one needed the cart, that would mean a hip, knee, ankle or other "leg" injury...and since legs are a large part of golf...well...I just don't see how it would be possible. A prosthetic (did I spell that right?) could help an amputee if it's fit properly and all...so that shouldn't be a problem. An arm injury (do golfer's get tennis elbow or the like?) could be bad, too...since you need your arms to swing with...but if it's an arm injury, they'd still be able to walk the course.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm really confused now...I just can't think of any injury/health problem that would prevent someone from walking, but would still allow them to play golf.

[5LilPlayers]

Sorry,I know this post is a little old, but I have to ask one thing:
As long as a woman/girl has the talent to be on a team or play pro with males, she should be allowed to, but the girl shouldn't be on the team just because she is a girl. Does everyone agree with this?

Now I know I'm asking this a little late,but I just want to make sure everyone is on the same page here.

First, I agree with sandlot on the "allowed" vs. "prevented from"....

But generally, that's what I have taken the poll to mean....that if a girl/woman has the skills to play on a "boy's"/"men's" team, should she or shouldn't she?

But for all I know, whoever posted this originally may have meant "in their own leagues" or something else completely different. There are a lot of ways it could be taken.

[NotAboutEgo]

I agree that if a woman is just as good or better than a pro male baseball player, she should have a spot on a team and should not be discriminated against just because she is a woman and the good ole' boys can't get past that to sign her to their team. A woman should not find a spot on a pro team just for the sake that she is a woman. To me, that is reverse discrimination, or whatever you want to call it... it's not right because it's like the Equal Opportunity job stuff where someone could be hired just to fulfill job quotas and such. I don't agree with this at all.

As far as the disabled golfer, I have absolutely no problem with a pro golfer being in a pro, high level tourney even if she or he is disabled. As long as they can play the game according to the rules and the way the rest of the pros play, I have no problem with it, and they shoudn't be kept out just because of being disabled in some way. Hell, if someone is disabled and can still kick butt, even Tiger Woods' butt, then more power to them... as long as they aren't making exceptions for the person! I don't think that not being able to walk the course should keep them from competing. That is very petty, in my eyes, and I agree with Sandlot on that one that they have to find whatever excuse they can to discriminate.

[sandlot]

Okay... How COULD a disabled golfer even play golf if he needed a cart to get around?
Fair question, 5LP. His name is Casey Martin and he was the plaintiff in a lawsuit, PGA Tour v. Casey Martin. He won the right to ride a golf cart on tour to accommodate a rare, incurable condition in his deteriorating right leg. Here's an article from the Michigan Daily 6/4/01 -- I'm including the whole thing, not just the URL, because I hope it will aid the discussion (and that the mods won't object) :

Cruising on the green: Disabled golfers should be allowed to use carts
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled seven to two Tuesday that the Professional Golf Association must allow disabled golfer Casey Martin to ride a cart between holes during PGA tournaments. This decision has caused a bit of a stir in the pro-golf world, with some arguing that walking is an integral part of the sport professional golfer Jack Nicklaus even suggested that the justices in the majority would "change their minds" if they would just go out and play a few holes. But the Supreme Court acted prudently in their assessment of Martin"s case given the circumstances, the right of this man to play golf took precedence over the interests of the establishment.

Klippel-Trenaunay-Weber syndrome a rare circulatory condition has caused Martin"s right leg to become small and weak. Whenever he walks on it, he runs the risks of bone fractures, internal hemorrhage and blood clots.

Despite this debilitating disease, Martin has proven that he is a very skilled golfer. He was a member of Stanford University"s 1994 championship team and continued to play NCAA golf in subsequent years. As his condition grew more severe, the NCAA waived the walking rule for him, as did the organizers of the Pacific-10 conference. He made it to the PGA Tour last year, taking home more than $140 thousand. Thus, this ruling is not a case of Martin exploiting a minor ailment for his own gain rather, it is a reasonable accommodation for a disadvantaged pro.

However, the nay-sayers do raise a valid question: The physical nature of sports will inevitably exclude people with certain disabilities. If the PGA has to change its rules for Martin, where will the line be drawn?

For instance, could a runner with shin splints demand a 10-second head start? Could Martin himself demand to be allowed to play professional baseball if he was really good at hitting the ball out of the park and had somebody else run for him? Not only are these kinds of demands unlikely, but they do not fall under the precedent set by the Court.

The Supreme Court"s decision was largely based on the Americans With Disabilities Act, which says that operators of public places (golf courses included) must make "reasonable" changes to their facilities, provided that they do not "fundamentally alter the nature" of the activity. The seven justices in the majority reached the conclusion that walking is not "fundamental" to the sport of golf. Indeed, walking (or not walking) does not affect the way the game is scored or the way that shots are taken. Writing for the majority, Justice John Paul Stevens stressed that "the essence of the game has been shot-making" since golf's early days.

Giving a runner a head start in a race directly affects the way that race is scored. Running and stealing bases is arguably more important to baseball than batting it is also inseparable from scoring. But riding in a golf cart does not give a player a distinct advantage regardless of whether or not a player walks, shots are taken and points are scored identically. Therefore, the Supreme Court's decision does not place the integrity of golf or any other sport in jeopardy.

The Supreme Court should be applauded for their support of individual rights. There is no reason why Martin, or any other player for whom walking is "beyond their capacity," should not be able to ride a cart in tournaments.

[NotAboutEgo]

In this case, I think it is RIDICULOUS for someone to not let this guy golf, just because he can't walk while golfing. He obviously is good enough to be a pro with the best, so just because he has the condition shouldn't be a determining factor in him not being able to be a part of it. Jeez, it just tells you how many people think... very selfish, egotistical, self-serving, narrow-mindedness. I can understand if the condition wasn't bad or if it wasn't a really good reason, but this is a really good reason for not having to walk the course but is not a reason at all to not let this guy play. I can't believe there are people out there who are so selfish... wait, yes I can, unfortunately.

[5LilPlayers]

More discrimination...it's sad the way the world works. Though we have come a long way since history began...it's still upsetting to see people having to fight, especially in court, for their rights.

Still confused though, if it's his leg...and he needs to stand on it to golf...wouldn't he still run the risk of fractures, clots, etc. with just the motion of swinging the golf club?

Like I said, golf isn't my thing, so I've never actually studied how anyone swings, let alone the pros...but I assume...somewhat like swinging a baseball bat, there is a point when the golfer turns his legs and/or hips with his swing.

All in all though...if they can play, if they're good enough at that professional level...let 'em play!

[NotAboutEgo]

More discrimination...it's sad the way the world works. Though we have come a long way since history began...it's still upsetting to see people having to fight, especially in court, for their rights.

Still confused though, if it's his leg...and he needs to stand on it to golf...wouldn't he still run the risk of fractures, clots, etc. with just the motion of swinging the golf club?

Like I said, golf isn't my thing, so I've never actually studied how anyone swings, let alone the pros...but I assume...somewhat like swinging a baseball bat, there is a point when the golfer turns his legs and/or hips with his swing.

All in all though...if they can play, if they're good enough at that professional level...let 'em play!


I agree. I'm thinking it's the type of thing that is affected more by walking long distances and isn't so affected by playing. If he can do it but has to ride in a cart, then so be it. Let him do it.

5LilPlayers, I somehow read your info wrong when you told me where you live (sorry!). I somehow read it as Illinois. Guess I had that on my mind for some reason. Anyway, there are no teams in Ohio currently. There have been teams in Cleveland on and off, but they folded due to lack of commitment of the players (a very common issue with keeping teams and leagues together). The next closest team to you, which is closer than Cleveland anyway, is my team here in the Detroit area... the Detroit Danger... www.detroitdanger.com. We are taking the season off because of similar issues, but plans are to jump back on the boat for the 2007 season. Not sure where practices will be yet, but we would love to have you join us!

[NotAboutEgo]

There was a team in Akron a few years back as well.

[5LilPlayers]

5LilPlayers, I somehow read your info wrong when you told me where you live (sorry!).

No problem. I have a hard time keeping up with everyone here...especially in the Between Innings one...still trying to get through everyone's info. in that "Who are we?" thread....having a ball reading about everyone, though.


Anyway, there are no teams in Ohio currently.

Kind of figured that. :ughh :noidea :hp LOL


The next closest team to you, which is closer than Cleveland anyway, is my team here in the Detroit area... the Detroit Danger... www.detroitdanger.com. We are taking the season off because of similar issues, but plans are to jump back on the boat for the 2007 season. Not sure where practices will be yet, but we would love to have you join us!

I just hope the hubby is willing to travel for practices. We are only 5 minutes away from the state line..but Detroit is still a good 45 minute drive. At least by next season, if it's a possibility for me to play, it'll give me time to at least try to get back in shape. LOL Let me know when you have more info! :clapping

[NotAboutEgo]

No problem. I have a hard time keeping up with everyone here...especially in the Between Innings one...still trying to get through everyone's info. in that "Who are we?" thread....having a ball reading about everyone, though.

Kind of figured that. :ughh :noidea :hp LOL

I just hope the hubby is willing to travel for practices. We are only 5 minutes away from the state line..but Detroit is still a good 45 minute drive. At least by next season, if it's a possibility for me to play, it'll give me time to at least try to get back in shape. LOL Let me know when you have more info! :clapping

I will be sure to give you info when I have it. :gt

[W_Marone]

This is what I say about letting women play baseball...it's simply no, not for any sexest reason or anything of the sort. They have softball...a version of baseball. They can play that....I dont think women would be able to hold up for what is needed to be on a men's baseball team...maybe thats just me though.
I wouldnt mind if women had their own baseball league, not softball but actual baseball...i'd be cool with that 100 percent.

[NotAboutEgo]

This is what I say about letting women play baseball...it's simply no, not for any sexest reason or anything of the sort. They have softball...a version of baseball. They can play that....I dont think women would be able to hold up for what is needed to be on a men's baseball team...maybe thats just me though.
I wouldnt mind if women had their own baseball league, not softball but actual baseball...i'd be cool with that 100 percent.

Do you realize, Go Gomes, that softball (fast pitch) is a COMPLETELY different game than baseball is, and that many women prefer to play baseball and NOT softball because they flat out don't like softball? Also, why should we have to play a substitute game for baseball? Who made the law that "women have softball"? If a woman was able to hang with the "big boys," why would you not want to see her play? Is it that your ego is too big along with your high level of insecurity? You say it isn't because of sexist reasons, but there is no other reason for saying that other than being sexist.

I don't care what ANYONE says. I HAVE a choice about what sports I want to play, and softball ISN'T one of them, so try to stop me from playing it. No one has control over me or anyone else, so open your mind and think about what you said. Who made rules about who can or can't do what? It's just plain bigotry.

I play baseball with guys, and they are good, solid players and are much stronger than I am. AND, I can hang with them very well. So, are you saying I should be banned from playing with them just because I'm a woman? If that isn't sexism at it's best, then I must be misunderstanding what sexism is.

Perhaps guys shouldn't be able to have long hair or wear ear rings, and perhaps they shouldn't be able to ever have custody of their kids when they get divorced, because it just isn't manly for any of it... makes just as much nonsense as what you've said.

[Brian McKenna]

They have softball...They can play that...i'd be cool with that 100 percent.

Somehow I don't think "they" would be 100% cool with you dictating what "they" can and cannot do.

[Williamsburg2599]

This is what I say about letting women play baseball...it's simply no, not for any sexest reason or anything of the sort. They have softball...a version of baseball. They can play that....I dont think women would be able to hold up for what is needed to be on a men's baseball team...maybe thats just me though.
I wouldnt mind if women had their own baseball league, not softball but actual baseball...i'd be cool with that 100 percent.
So men shouldn't be allowed to play for thier company softball team because all softball is for girls? What are the things that women "wouldnt be able to hold up for"?

[5LilPlayers]

You know, they say when you're a parent and your child REALLY screws up that you should take a moment and count to 10 before reacting to calm yourself down. I've never had to do that with my children. This post, however....I did. And let me just say, I'm glad I've never had to count to 10 with the kids...because I just found out...IT DOESN'T WORK!


This is what I say about letting women play baseball...it's simply no, not for any sexest reason or anything of the sort.

Not for any sexist reason? Yet you go on to say:


They have softball...a version of baseball. They can play that....

You seriously, honestly, think that this ISN'T sexist???


I dont think women would be able to hold up for what is needed to be on a men's baseball team...maybe thats just me though.

I played from jr. high until I was 22, finding men's teams that would accept me. They were NOT, truly, "co-ed". The ONLY reason I didn't "hold up" for my last season was because doctor's strongly advise you against sliding when you're 5 months pregnant. Not to mention, the sudden growth of the belly does kind of make it hard to pitch.


I wouldnt mind if women had their own baseball league, not softball but actual baseball...i'd be cool with that 100 percent.

Let's think ahead about this. Days, months...years...down the road.

What are you going to tell your daughter (niece or granddaughter) if she says she wants to play baseball? Even if girls/women had their own leagues...what if that daughter, niece or granddaughter wanted to play but there weren't any girl's/women's leagues in your area? "Daddy's little girl" would be no more and/or that "Favorite Grandpa/Uncle in the World" crown would be SEVERELY tarnished...if she knew you didn't think she had it in her to play. How could you tell your own daughter (niece or granddaughter) "You can be anything you want" then tell them "No, you shouldn't (or worse..."can't") play baseball with the boys because I don't think you could 'hold up' in a boy's/men's league"??

[NotAboutEgo]

So men shouldn't be allowed to play for thier company softball team because all softball is for girls? What are the things that women "wouldnt be able to hold up for"?

I've never seen a company have women-only softball teams and other sports team. They are either coed or are for men only. There should be equal opportunities for both.

I don't have a problem with a company having coed teams.

[Williamsburg2599]

I've never seen a company have women-only softball teams and other sports team. They are either coed or are for men only. There should be equal opportunities for both.

I don't have a problem with a company having coed teams.
I agree with you,but Gomes said that baseball is for men and softball is for women.

[NotAboutEgo]

I agree with you,but Gomes said that baseball is for men and softball is for women.

Gomes obviously is still on that cabbage wagon, waiting for his (or her) opportunity to fall off and hit her/his head on the ground to wake up and realize everyone is allowed to have just as much of an opportunity as anyone else to do things they enjoy. I was quite peeved with those comments as much as 5LP was, but I have since calmed down because I realize what a bigot Gomes is. It's intersting to see he/she hasn't been back, at least to make more sexist and ridiculous comments.

[NotAboutEgo]

You know, they say when you're a parent and your child REALLY screws up that you should take a moment and count to 10 before reacting to calm yourself down. I've never had to do that with my children. This post, however....I did. And let me just say, I'm glad I've never had to count to 10 with the kids...because I just found out...IT DOESN'T WORK!



Not for any sexist reason? Yet you go on to say:



You seriously, honestly, think that this ISN'T sexist???



I played from jr. high until I was 22, finding men's teams that would accept me. They were NOT, truly, "co-ed". The ONLY reason I didn't "hold up" for my last season was because doctor's strongly advise you against sliding when you're 5 months pregnant. Not to mention, the sudden growth of the belly does kind of make it hard to pitch.



Let's think ahead about this. Days, months...years...down the road.

What are you going to tell your daughter (niece or granddaughter) if she says she wants to play baseball? Even if girls/women had their own leagues...what if that daughter, niece or granddaughter wanted to play but there weren't any girl's/women's leagues in your area? "Daddy's little girl" would be no more and/or that "Favorite Grandpa/Uncle in the World" crown would be SEVERELY tarnished...if she knew you didn't think she had it in her to play. How could you tell your own daughter (niece or granddaughter) "You can be anything you want" then tell them "No, you shouldn't (or worse..."can't") play baseball with the boys because I don't think you could 'hold up' in a boy's/men's league"??

DITTO!!! :confused: :grouchy :mad:

[dw8man]

This is a very interesting thread. After having read it and trying to digest the many points stated, I have to ask this question:

Is it ever acceptable for men to associate with just other men?

My wife works at a ladies only gym. I can't get past the front door. Doesn't bother me and I think it is great!

My daughter plays on female only basketball, softball, and soccer teams.

My son has never played on a team that has banned females.

Every sport in our area is open to females but my son can not play volleyball, softball or cheer.

If it is not okay for males to exclude females, why is okay in reverse?

I know that some post have express that this is not okay, but what are you doing about it? Why just focus on getting your daughter access to baseball and not on allowing both sexes access to all sports?

I am all for females playing any sport or doing anything that a male is allowed to do as long as three conditions are met.
1. All sports/teams are opened to both sexes.
2. No rules are changes or differences are made.
3. No quotas!

I am very involved in our youth programs in my area and have been fighting for equal access in all sports for both genders. I have had more success in getting females access then males.

[JeepingBaseball]

I think I understand what you're saying, but you missed a point.

men usually get the sport first. and then it's women who fight to be on it or get their own. Had it been the other way around and women got the sport first, i have no doubt in my mind that it would be men fighting to be in the sport... and why not? Go for it!

Men have swimming, tennis, gymastic, softball, and even cheerleading. Only sport I can think of that men are not involved in is high school field hockey. Gymastic was usually considered a girls sport, but no longer.

What sport are you fighting for exactly? Or is it your view that everything should be a 50/50 coed team?

[NotAboutEgo]

This is a very interesting thread. After having read it and trying to digest the many points stated, I have to ask this question:

Is it ever acceptable for men to associate with just other men?

My wife works at a ladies only gym. I can't get past the front door. Doesn't bother me and I think it is great!

My daughter plays on female only basketball, softball, and soccer teams.

My son has never played on a team that has banned females.

Every sport in our area is open to females but my son can not play volleyball, softball or cheer.

If it is not okay for males to exclude females, why is okay in reverse?

I know that some post have express that this is not okay, but what are you doing about it? Why just focus on getting your daughter access to baseball and not on allowing both sexes access to all sports?

I am all for females playing any sport or doing anything that a male is allowed to do as long as three conditions are met.
1. All sports/teams are opened to both sexes.
2. No rules are changes or differences are made.
3. No quotas!

I am very involved in our youth programs in my area and have been fighting for equal access in all sports for both genders. I have had more success in getting females access then males.

I don't think it is right to exclude males from playing sports with females when there is not a male team of that sport. It is the same as what we are talking about. But, our point is, the females on here, at least the ones who have openly stated so, play baseball and we have experienced in some form or other being told we can't play baseball because we are female and that we can't hang with the guys if we play baseball with them.

The whole point of this thread is to discuss our experiences and anything else that comes up that relates to it. The reason I am involved in women's baseball is because I have wanted to play baseball most of my life, and until I found out there are some teams and leagues around, I didn't have the opportunity to play it. I have heard and was told so many times throughout my life that girls and women can't play baseball and that we are too weak and that we can't handle it and that we can't handle playing with men if there are no women's teams and leagues present. I won't ever back down when someone tells me this... ever... and I should not have to fight to play baseball.

So, the whole point is that we are discussing things that relate to the topic in this thread because we choose to. We don't choose to fight for other things, and that is our choice. What you asked about why we aren't fighting for males to be able to play sports that women have that they don't is no different than me asking you why you aren't fighting for women and girls to be able to play baseball.

And, as JeepingBaseball stated, women having to fight to play baseball (and other sports) in the U.S. is a documented and experienced fact and has been since organized baseball started (according to records) in 1866 at Vassar College.

[dw8man]

Thanks for you reply!

I am not fighting for any one sport in particular but just trying to make sure that in our area, all kids can play any sport they want too.

I agree that in most sports men have been the ones to get the first shot or women just have been left out. I think this is wrong and would like to see it change.

However, the underline questions to my first post where twofold.

1. When is it okay (if ever) for a group to associate in the way it wants to?

If it is never, okay then......

2. Why they does it seem that not many females are fussing about the female only teams/clubs/groups? If you are going to decry one, why not the other? (Again a number on this thread have, but, to me, not as loud.)

I would like to see someone address those questions.

On question one, does anyone know how MLB is set up? Is it concidered a private organization? I know that there are some special laws that govern it but am not familiar with them.......

[dw8man]

Ego,

I posted my last one without having seen your post so it might have seemed a little confussing...


What you asked about why we aren't fighting for males to be able to play sports that women have that they don't is no different than me asking you why you aren't fighting for women and girls to be able to play baseball.

Anyway, I have been fighting for women to play baseball..... My son is playing middle school ball, and I have personally lead a push to get two younger and very good females equal access to the team. This next year both will be trying out and if all goes well, will make the team. BTW... they wont make the team because the team is weak. They will make it because they are good players. The team competes in a very difficult region and always is in the running for the championship. Expect no difference next year.

[NotAboutEgo]

Thanks for you reply!

I am not fighting for any one sport in particular but just trying to make sure that in our area, all kids can play any sport they want too.

I agree that in most sports men have been the ones to get the first shot or women just have been left out. I think this is wrong and would like to see it change.

However, the underline questions to my first post where twofold.

1. When is it okay (if ever) for a group to associate in the way it wants to?

If it is never, okay then......

2. Why they does it seem that not many females are fussing about the female only teams/clubs/groups? If you are going to decry one, why not the other? (Again a number on this thread have, but, to me, not as loud.)

I would like to see someone address those questions.

On question one, does anyone know how MLB is set up? Is it concidered a private organization? I know that there are some special laws that govern it but am not familiar with them.......

You're welcome. Your question number 2 is a good one. I have often thought about that myself. I'm not sure why there would be such things as women-only fitness clubs, boys-only schools, girls-only schools, etc. I think that unless there is a legitimate reason for it, it only segregates people and adds to the separatist view that a lot of people have. If I were going to a gym, I would want to go to a coed gym, because I have no reason to go to an all-female gym. My thought process is about people, not about segregating, so I don't understand that mindset.

If you look at many things in our culture, the separatist/stereotyping view/mindset comes into play... Girls Scouts, Boy Scouts, boys-only schools, girls-only schools, YMCA, YWCA, pink for girls, blue for boys, trucks and cars for boys, dolls and dishes for girls, bold colors for guys, soft/light colors for women, etc., etc., etc. Take a look at product ads on TV. Many are still very stereotypical... laundry detergent commercials with women doing the laundry, guys working on cars, tough tasks and jobs being done by men, household type chores being done by women, male college students bringing their laundry home to mom (My sister and I did that all the time while we were in college, and I know of a lot of other students who do it, so why don't they show girls taking their laundry home for their parents to do, also? I guess we aren't the norm... LOL :crazy ), etc.

I can understand having sports teams for boys/men and sports teams of the same sports for girls/women and also having coed teams, and I don't have a problem with any of it, but if one group is being slighted, it's not right. There should be equal opportunties for all. If I was existing on this planet in the times of the segregation of African Americans and others who were deeply segregated against based on color of skin, I would have been there fighting along with them, because it's the same deal, and it burns my hide. It floors me to no end to know that African Americans and others were banned from playing in the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League AND in MLB in the past. I just think about all the terrific athletes that were passed up because of these stereotypes.

I don't know if MLB is private, public, or how it is set up. Would be very interesting to find out.

[NotAboutEgo]

Ego,

I posted my last one without having seen your post so it might have seemed a little confussing...



Anyway, I have been fighting for women to play baseball..... My son is playing middle school ball, and I have personally lead a push to get two younger and very good females equal access to the team. This next year both will be trying out and if all goes well, will make the team. BTW... they wont make the team because the team is weak. They will make it because they are good players. The team competes in a very difficult region and always is in the running for the championship. Expect no difference next year.

Good for you for supporting your children, and good luck to them all. These kinds of stories are becoming more widespread. I'm sure the barriers will be broken down eventually, but it takes time when there are still people with insecurities who "need" to control things.

[5LilPlayers]

This is a very interesting thread. After having read it and trying to digest the many points stated, I have to ask this question:

Is it ever acceptable for men to associate with just other men?

I'm sure, at some point, there is a time....but the only thing I'm coming up with at the moment is maybe the locker room. LOL


My wife works at a ladies only gym. I can't get past the front door. Doesn't bother me and I think it is great!

I never will understand those places. Though I guess some women are uncomfortable with men watching them workout? And if that is why they designate them as "women's only" (like Bally's here)....WHY the heck do they have gigantic windows on 3 sides of the building????


Every sport in our area is open to females but my son can not play volleyball, softball or cheer.

That's worng. If he wants to play volleyball, softball or cheer, he should be able to. I guess I was lucky with that. Volleyball and cheerleading were open to males and females in my high school...but as most usual, softball was for girls and baseball was for boys.


If it is not okay for males to exclude females, why is okay in reverse?

NEITHER is okay, IMO.


I know that some post have express that this is not okay, but what are you doing about it? Why just focus on getting your daughter access to baseball and not on allowing both sexes access to all sports?

Personally, so far, none of the other sports my children like to play are like that. If my son wanted to cheer and they told him no...I'd be fighting for that, too...but the grade shool my kids go to doesn't have anything that's not co-ed at the moment. The school's baseball team is co-ed, but if they didn't play last year, they're not allowed to play "this" year, even for transfer students. Heck, my SON started a knitting club last year...he taught, and though it shouldn't...it did surprise me that out of 22 "pupils" (20 kids, 2 adults), there were 13 boys who signed up and by the end of the year, all of the girls except my daughter dropped out while only 3 of the boys left. Granted, knitting isn't exactly a sport. LOL But it was open to all. Even boy/girl scouts in the school are open to both genders (look in the rule books...newer copies of the "rules" do NOT usually have "girls"/"boys", they just usually say "her", "him", "she", "he" in the phamplets and such).

The YMCA's and YWCA's date back to an era where men and women were seperated....it stunk then and it still stinks now...but all 4 or 5 YMCA's as well as the lone YWCA in our area are both co-ed.


I am all for females playing any sport or doing anything that a male is allowed to do as long as three conditions are met.
1. All sports/teams are opened to both sexes.
2. No rules are changes or differences are made.
3. No quotas!

EXACTLY! Once there are special rules (for either gender) in a co-ed sport/on co-ed teams, that's when it's even more wrong.

Okay, the rest of the newer posts I'll comment on later. It's time for dinner and I have a craving for Grape Balls...time to eat!!! LOL

[NotAboutEgo]

I'm sure, at some point, there is a time....but the only thing I'm coming up with at the moment is maybe the locker room. LOL



I never will understand those places. Though I guess some women are uncomfortable with men watching them workout? And if that is why they designate them as "women's only" (like Bally's here)....WHY the heck do they have gigantic windows on 3 sides of the building????



That's worng. If he wants to play volleyball, softball or cheer, he should be able to. I guess I was lucky with that. Volleyball and cheerleading were open to males and females in my high school...but as most usual, softball was for girls and baseball was for boys.



NEITHER is okay, IMO.



Personally, so far, none of the other sports my children like to play are like that. If my son wanted to cheer and they told him no...I'd be fighting for that, too...but the grade shool my kids go to doesn't have anything that's not co-ed at the moment. The school's baseball team is co-ed, but if they didn't play last year, they're not allowed to play "this" year, even for transfer students. Heck, my SON started a knitting club last year...he taught, and though it shouldn't...it did surprise me that out of 22 "pupils" (20 kids, 2 adults), there were 13 boys who signed up and by the end of the year, all of the girls except my daughter dropped out while only 3 of the boys left. Granted, knitting isn't exactly a sport. LOL But it was open to all. Even boy/girl scouts in the school are open to both genders (look in the rule books...newer copies of the "rules" do NOT usually have "girls"/"boys", they just usually say "her", "him", "she", "he" in the phamplets and such).

The YMCA's and YWCA's date back to an era where men and women were seperated....it stunk then and it still stinks now...but all 4 or 5 YMCA's as well as the lone YWCA in our area are both co-ed.



EXACTLY! Once there are special rules (for either gender) in a co-ed sport/on co-ed teams, that's when it's even more wrong.

Okay, the rest of the newer posts I'll comment on later. It's time for dinner and I have a craving for Grape Balls...time to eat!!! LOL

Great post, but I have one question... what in the heck are grape balls??? :coffee :laugh

[NotAboutEgo]

That's terrific that your son starting a knitting club and it had that much response, especially from the boys! Kids are not gender-biased unless they are taught to be. It's interesting (and good) to see a lot of stereotypes about men being broken down now... finally... like people thinking men can't have long hair, wear earrings (something I find very attractive in a guy), jewelry, cook, do gardening, etc. That stuff aggravates me as much as people saying women can't lay baseball does. I'm not particularly attracted to guys with long hair, but it doesn't mean they can't have it long and shouldn't. My personal likes and dislikes should not dictate what people "can" and "can't" do. So many people don't understand this (it's all about their egos).

Another thing that really peeves me is when a married man and woman with kids get divorced and the woman automatically gets priority over custody of the kids. There should be joint (equal) custody in every case unless there are circumstances (jobs, school, health, being addicted to drugs, committing abuse, etc.) that would interfere with that.

[NotAboutEgo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dw8man

"This is a very interesting thread. After having read it and trying to digest the many points stated, I have to ask this question:

Is it ever acceptable for men to associate with just other men?"

IMO, it's not wrong to associate only with men or only with women, as long as it doesn't step on someone's toes. Guys hanging out with just guys for friendship and socializing and all that isn't wrong and vice versa for women. When it becomes wrong to separate genders, cultures, groups, whatever is when there are special rules made for certain groups, when one group wants to join and participate but is being banned from doing so, without justifiable reason. Banning women from playing in the Minors and Majors and anywhere else has absolutely NO justifiable reason and is based solely on sexism, so it is wrong (one example).

Like I said before, I don't understand the "women-only" gyms and the "guys-only" gyms, but as long as it isn't stepping on someone's toes (which I can think of examples where it could), it's fine. People have choices about what gyms they workout at, and there are plenty of coed gyms around. I don't get the Bally's thing at all. The one I used to workout at is coed, but it divides the men and women into their own sides of the gym, and there's a pool in the middle of the sides. Absolutely crazy! Like 5LP said, if women are not comfortable with guys watching them workout, why do they have huge windows in their gyms? What an oxymoron.

Going back to women playing baseball, girls' and women's teams and leagues aren't so abundant as gyms and other things, so when there is a team a girl or women wants to play on, she should be able to as long as she is good enough for whatever standards are set by the team/league. She shouldn't be banned from playing just because she is a female. That is flat out sexist and discriminatory.

[sandlot]

I think there is a time and place for some activities or venues to be single-gender. This is a view that is frankly at odds with positions I hold on some other topics, but I'd rather be flexible than foolishly consistent. While in college, I was on the student part of a commitee that made the decision for our school -- male-only since its inception in the 19th C. -- to go coed. Initially, I favored keeping it all-male. But with time and exposure to other campuses, I went 180 degrees in favor of coeducation. During that period, some women's schools decided to accept men. Others experimented and then decided against it and remained single-sex. Over the years, I've come to believe -- and I've been greatly influenced in coming to this belief by women who were educators, teachers, professors and students -- that there is an important role to be played by schools that are for girls and young women only. At the same time, however, I think schools that are boys-only are anachronistic and develop young males who are clueless about the other gender, and hence filled with many weird and wonderful ideas that they then have to spend a good many years getting knocked out of their heads.

So why the contradiction? Part of it has to do with different rates of maturation, a phenomenon noted everywhere in the world I've ever been. But the main reason is because boys -- or, at least enough of them to make the difference -- get loud, demanding, confrontational, competitive, etc., as puberty sets in. This presents all kinds of problems in a classroom setting. While you can argue some of it is societal, I think most people who've dealt with it would say it's pretty much just raging hormones. Teachers also find it easier to give attention to the kid who's fighting for it than to the one who doesn't want to have to scrum to get a question in.

Professors I've known in top-notch women's colleges have told me they can usually spot the young ladies who went to girls' schools and co-ed schools very quickly, in part by their willingness to participate in class or express an opinion. The ones from girls' schools are generally much more eager and willing to challenge.

In sports, the difference in physiques presents problems. Take volleyball: If you've got girls who are the height of the Cuban women's volleyball team, then mixing genders might make sense -- unless the guys all happen to be shrimps like me who'd duck for their lives every time one of those girls spiked the ball. On the other hand, if you've got boys who are mostly 6'-plus and girls who are mostly less than 6' tall, do you think this is going to be a fun experience for everybody if it's played competitively? There has to be some adjustment, and space has to be created for people to develop differently. The gender discrimination issue arises mainly, I think, either where one gender has a sport to play, while the other doesn't and is also denied access; or, where the competition level is rather higher -- where those who are recognizably better want to play with/against players of the same or better caliber. In the latter case, I think it becomes a quality issue only: If you're good enough to compete, you get to play. And, importantly, you've also got to be given opportunities along the way to play so that you can get coached, grow, develop and find out your own potential. Early on, some girls might develop better playing with other girls, but some might develop better playing with boys. In an ideal world, they'd get to choose.

[5LilPlayers]

Great post, but I have one question... what in the heck are grape balls??? :coffee :laugh
Ya know...as soon as I read the actual post when it popped up....I knew someone was going to ask that...LOL

It sounds TOTALLY disgusting...but it really IS good.

Take a medium to large crock pot
60 to 80 pre-cooked small to medium sized meatballs
32 oz. jar of plain (or "Traditional") spaghetti sauce
32 oz. jar of Grape jelly

Dump everything in the crockpot, cock on high until the meatballs are hot, then turn down to low (or that lovely "keep warm" setting).

The jelly kind of gives it a little "sweet & sour sauce"-like flavor...if you like the Sweet & Sour Chicken/Pork/etc. from Chinese restaurants, it's kind of like that...and, sometimes, it's the only way I can get some of the kids to eat meat.

I like doing it as a meal, but you can also do a smaller amount (freezing the leftover sauce - with or without he meatballs - for up to 3 months) as a side dish.

We actually took them to my friends' sister's wake (2 crockpots full)...one of her family members couldn't remember the recipe so she put a couple meatballs in a bowl to save....then dumped all the extra sauce from BOTH crockpots into another bowl to take home to freeze it!

You can also do it on the stove top, browning approx. 4 - 6 lbs. of meat first (the more meat, the thicker it will be, the less meat, the thinner it will be), then adding the spaghetti sauce and grape jelly and doing it on buger buns like sloppy joe's...again, it'll keep in the freezer for 3 months.

I wish I had "smaller" versions of the recipe, but with a family of 7...we have to cook a lot at a time. LOL

[5LilPlayers]

Disagreeing to a point, here, Sandlot. The difference in physique isn't necessarily a problem in many sports. Baseball, curling, swimming, diving, ping pong, etc...it's more about technique than physical attributes.

Yes, SOME sports, it counts....football players aren't usually 100 lbs....basketball players usually aren't 5' tall (adult teams here)...but all the schools I've went to had seperate teams for girls and boys in the sports where physical apperance can make a difference, no matter how slight that difference may be.

Many other sports are open to both genders...co-ed.

Others have special rules for each gender -- which I don't agree with....being female, I wanted to do the rings and parallel bars in gymnastics...I HATED beam and the unevens. But I've always had abnormally good upper body strength.

As I've stated before on this thread, there are some "above average" females as well as "below average" males who could play on teams with the opposite gender without a problem...when those physical differences matter as much.

But here...baseball...is a sport about technique. SOME power is required (check swing)...but baseball isn't BASED on power. I'd much rather have a player who could pull off a good sacrifice bunt 80% of the time than one who could hit out-of-the-park homers even 40% of the time. You can play ball if you're 5' tall and 110 pounds or 6' 11" and 275 lbs....as long as you have the skills.

Speaking only of baseball...those who know it, who knows that part of the game often called "inside baseball"...knows the importance of having a team made up of ALL types of players...not just power hitters or "perfect" fielders or...whatever other type of player you could name. You need all of the elements, all of the time, to truly have a winning team. Again, as I've stated before...more baseball games are decided by early (and sometimes even late) inning sacrifice bunts, "one run at a time" plays, and the like than by 9th inning, full count with 2 away, home runs.

If either gender has the skills needed for games OF skill...when the physical differences don't matter...let them play together, or at least, don't ban one gender just because they are of that gender.

[NotAboutEgo]

Ya know...as soon as I read the actual post when it popped up....I knew someone was going to ask that...LOL

It sounds TOTALLY disgusting...but it really IS good.

Take a medium to large crock pot
60 to 80 pre-cooked small to medium sized meatballs
32 oz. jar of plain (or "Traditional") spaghetti sauce
32 oz. jar of Grape jelly

Dump everything in the crockpot, cock on high until the meatballs are hot, then turn down to low (or that lovely "keep warm" setting).

The jelly kind of gives it a little "sweet & sour sauce"-like flavor...if you like the Sweet & Sour Chicken/Pork/etc. from Chinese restaurants, it's kind of like that...and, sometimes, it's the only way I can get some of the kids to eat meat.

I like doing it as a meal, but you can also do a smaller amount (freezing the leftover sauce - with or without he meatballs - for up to 3 months) as a side dish.

We actually took them to my friends' sister's wake (2 crockpots full)...one of her family members couldn't remember the recipe so she put a couple meatballs in a bowl to save....then dumped all the extra sauce from BOTH crockpots into another bowl to take home to freeze it!

You can also do it on the stove top, browning approx. 4 - 6 lbs. of meat first (the more meat, the thicker it will be, the less meat, the thinner it will be), then adding the spaghetti sauce and grape jelly and doing it on buger buns like sloppy joe's...again, it'll keep in the freezer for 3 months.

I wish I had "smaller" versions of the recipe, but with a family of 7...we have to cook a lot at a time. LOL

Funny... I was thinking they are some kind of snack like frozen grapes or something like that. I'm not one for eating a lot of meat, especially beef because I don't like it, but it sounds pretty good. I will eat meatballs on a rare occasion and will eat them more if they are turkey meatballs. I eat more mild fish than anything and eat pork and ham now and then. I eat chicken once in a great while. The fish (mahi mahi.... yummy) and pork and ham are my favorites. :coffee

[dw8man]

5LilPlayers, please stop the flamming by giving out recipts! It is hard to type when I am thinking about food!! :)

Anyway, because I am not the familiar with women playing baseball at higher levels and am not sure where to find the information, could anyone point me to or reply with some information on what the "norm" stats for a women baseball player would be (I hope that is said correctly)? I know what the male Pros can do and have a good idea on male college and HS baseball players but no idea how to compare a female baseball player.

The reason why I am asking is because an number of arguements in this thread deal with men being bigger/faster/stronger and countered with that it doesn't matter in baseball. While I agree that is doesn't always make a difference, I would like to know what good, avg women can do stats wise.

Basically, I would like some estimates on avg pitch volocity at different ages/skill levels (HS, College, After), avg times from home to first and second, distance on hits, etc.... anything to help make an informed decision.

I am hoping that the information will help show that sex doesn't matter but somethings come to min:. At the higher levels of baseball, just because you can field a ball as well as anyone, if you can not get it across the diamond before the runner gets to first, you are not going to make it. Or, if you are a great contact hitter but have avg or below speed to first, you will get throw out a lot.

BTW... I am not arguing for or against anyone playing, I just would like more information.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.....

[JeepingBaseball]

5LilPlayers, please stop the flamming by giving out recipts! It is hard to type when I am thinking about food!! :)

Anyway, because I am not the familiar with women playing baseball at higher levels and am not sure where to find the information, could anyone point me to or reply with some information on what the "norm" stats for a women baseball player would be (I hope that is said correctly)? I know what the male Pros can do and have a good idea on male college and HS baseball players but no idea how to compare a female baseball player.

The reason why I am asking is because an number of arguements in this thread deal with men being bigger/faster/stronger and countered with that it doesn't matter in baseball. While I agree that is doesn't always make a difference, I would like to know what good, avg women can do stats wise.

Basically, I would like some estimates on avg pitch volocity at different ages/skill levels (HS, College, After), avg times from home to first and second, distance on hits, etc.... anything to help make an informed decision.

I am hoping that the information will help show that sex doesn't matter but somethings come to min:. At the higher levels of baseball, just because you can field a ball as well as anyone, if you can not get it across the diamond before the runner gets to first, you are not going to make it. Or, if you are a great contact hitter but have avg or below speed to first, you will get throw out a lot.

BTW... I am not arguing for or against anyone playing, I just would like more information.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.....

Thats a solid, reasonable, and practical question that hasn't been raised. I for one, even know im a player, do not know what my speed from hitting the ball to first base is. I know at one time my pitches were clocked and i pitched a 72 mph fastball. Even with stats, I think will throw the whole perspective off. For example, a women hitting one of my pitches, doesnt mean she may be able to hit off a man's pitch in the upper 90's. Very good question, but almost impossible to answer giving the fact that women dont get to play with men in baseball.

Now that I think about it... maybe not so impossible. The women ballplayers if the colorado silver bullets only played against men for the most part. Surely someone here will have stats on those women.

[5LilPlayers]

5LilPlayers, please stop the flamming by giving out recipts! It is hard to type when I am thinking about food!! :)

Sorry! LOL


Anyway, because I am not the familiar with women playing baseball at higher levels and am not sure where to find the information, could anyone point me to or reply with some information on what the "norm" stats for a women baseball player would be (I hope that is said correctly)? I know what the male Pros can do and have a good idea on male college and HS baseball players but no idea how to compare a female baseball player.

I was never officially clocked, since baseball wasn't offered to girls/women other than local recreational leagues, we never had the equipment. I don't know how accurate they are, but I have been clocked between 75 - 80 mph (pitching) on those carnival games where you throw twice then get a prize if you guess the speed of your last throw...that was from the time I was around 15 until I was around 20.


The reason why I am asking is because an number of arguements in this thread deal with men being bigger/faster/stronger and countered with that it doesn't matter in baseball. While I agree that is doesn't always make a difference, I would like to know what good, avg women can do stats wise.

Very good reasoning! I never thought of bringing up something like this.


Basically, I would like some estimates on avg pitch volocity at different ages/skill levels (HS, College, After), avg times from home to first and second, distance on hits, etc.... anything to help make an informed decision.

I just wish I could help more on the aspect of home to first and the like. I do my longest ball was slightly over 220 feet, if that helps.


At the higher levels of baseball, just because you can field a ball as well as anyone, if you can not get it across the diamond before the runner gets to first, you are not going to make it.

Pegging the ball from third or short to first base IS part of fielding. You can't just get the ball and hold or throw it back to the pitcher (except maybe in rare circumstances)...you have to do something with it.


Or, if you are a great contact hitter but have avg or below speed to first, you will get throw out a lot.

And the reverse works as well. If you're fast on the base paths, but can't hit...you'll get thrown out just as easily by a pitcher or catcher.

TOTALLY different era....but there were some outstanding players in the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League. Sophie Kurys had a season high of 201 stolen bases. Jean Faut had a 20 - 2 pitching record in one season. Joanne Weaver had had a .429 batting average in 1954....surpassing Ted Willams' .400 the year before. The base paths were 5 feet shorter...pitcher's mound was 6 inches closer...the size of the balls changed rapidly from softball down to the a real baseball.

Could these women have accomplished these feats now...on a regulation MLB diamond? Who knows?

But even with the constantly changing rules (and equipment) those women did a heck of a job. I would say, what stands out the most...is Willams vs. Weaver...simply because the timing was only a year apart, but again...smaller diamond for the women so that had to have played into the batting average a little.

I'll be the first to admit, my speed stinks...but I do hit the long ball, so I could usually make it to first pretty easily, depending on the other team...sometimes I'd even get a double or triple...if it wasn't an "automatic homer" (the local leagues and church leagues I played on both had an "if it goes past <pick a stationary object> it's a home run" rule for the fields we played on). I'm also pretty good at putting the ball in a hole (my stance is very unique, I "choose" my direction when I step out). Don't know how the arm is now, but back when I was playing, I could throw.

Yet here...these are personal...I wouldn't know about a team (or women's league) as a whole...there are none in my area. :mad:

[sandlot]

Disagreeing to a point, here, Sandlot. The difference in physique isn't necessarily a problem in many sports. Baseball, curling, swimming, diving, ping pong, etc...it's more about technique than physical attributes.It's not necessarily a problem, but often can be, especially as growth spurts start to happen. I have to disagree on swimming when it gets to be really competitive swimming -- just look at the relative times. Yes, strong female swimmers can beat many if not most men, but when you get even to high school levels, the better males simply excel -- longer legs, more powerful shoulders, lower body fat percentages, all add up. A very close friend, who was once my personal trainer, was a three-time Olympian for her country and swam for one the top US universities. No way she could match her male teammates. Women are terrific, however, in endurance swimming. Diving is an interesting question, not because of relative abilities, but because aesthetics are involved in judging (as they are in gymnastics, see below).


Yes, SOME sports, it counts....football players aren't usually 100 lbs....basketball players usually aren't 5' tall (adult teams here)...but all the schools I've went to had seperate teams for girls and boys in the sports where physical apperance can make a difference, no matter how slight that difference may be. Many other sports are open to both genders...co-ed. Agreed.


Others have special rules for each gender -- which I don't agree with....being female, I wanted to do the rings and parallel bars in gymnastics...I HATED beam and the unevens. But I've always had abnormally good upper body strength.If you liked rings, you really did have abnormal upper-body strength! I loved rings, just discovered them too late in school to do anything with it. I fear that a woman who wanted to be competitive in rings, however, would soon be driven to steroids -- as I suspect a number men already have been. But switching things around (just for fun), let me tell you, 5LP, if you were a man you would NEVER, EVER want to do the uneven parallel bars, and I don't even want to think about the beam! :ughh This is a whole other topic, and it's come up elsewhere on BBF so I don't want to repeat the discussion, but the real discrimination against women in gymnastics is not men vs. women, it is aesthetic -- the infantilization of young adult women in pursuit of a seriously twisted notion of female beauty and grace.


As I've stated before on this thread, there are some "above average" females as well as "below average" males who could play on teams with the opposite gender without a problem...when those physical differences matter as much.Agreed.


If either gender has the skills needed for games OF skill...when the physical differences don't matter...let them play together, or at least, don't ban one gender just because they are of that gender.Sums it up pretty well.

[5LilPlayers]

I've just never had much balance...which is why I hated the beam. LOL I was constantly falling off. Never got into gymnastics competitively....for me, it was just for fun....and I did find a gym that accepted kids who didn't want to compete. I was a tad too old then (around 10 or 11), but thanks to everything else I did - swimming, diving, roller skating, and more (nothing competitive except baseball) - I still had a lot of flexability for my age. And the gymnastics instructors would let us work out on whatever piece of equipment we wanted, every night there was someone to man each station. I loved the trampoline! LOL As far as I got with that was backflips on the floor...I was never a fan of the floor either, for the simple fact that women had to add all those stupid dance elements but the guys didn't. I loved to dance, too...but when I was on the floor, I just wanted to run full tilt and do some flips, walkovers, etc. But they did let me get out of doing beam (granted, it was after about the 20th time I fell off in one session LOL)....they asked what else I wanted to do...so I told 'em, "rings and parallel bars!" They did guide me over to the unevens....I said "NO...THOSE!" pointing at the "men's" equipment. They let me do them both, and the instructor even said "It's too bad you're not a boy, you could do that in competition". Good arms, good abs, etc. helped a lot. I know most girls wouldn't have been able to do it...and even fewer women...because we (girls/women) are supposed to be short little things that weigh less than we are tall (in inches, of course) when it came to gymnastics.

But I grew up wrestling with my dad and the boys in the neighborhood, as well as all the other "boy" things I did. I was a tomboy...still am...so I did have a little bit of an advantage when it came to strength. While most girls opted for the feminine stuff, dresses and stopped sports because "boys don't like girls who could play" once we hit our pre-teens...I just couldn't see what all the fuss was about with hair and make-up...so I stayed true to myself.

As for swimming...again, never competitively for me...I had a problem. My mom got me into every single swimming lesson she could find. She was...is...scared to death of the water, and she didn't want me to turn out like that. But I NEVER kicked. My arms go...but then I always forget my legs. LOL I was fast, but even today, I wonder how fast I could be if I did actually use my legs...and cut my hair shorter? LOL I know a lot of men who compete shave everything for that slight advantage with water resistence.

Maybe I'm just too competitive for my own good...but I'm willing to take on anyone, in almost any sport...team sports to solo stuff. I don't care if I win or lose...but let's face it, winning IS more fun. LOL I just like to compete.

[Baseball Mum]

I'm in Australia, and here, the Baseball organisations have said that just about every team in the country is available to girls / women if they are good enough to make the team. Here in Sydney there are at least 3 girls playing in our 2nd and 3rd grade Major League sides. (Now I know that our majors are nothing like your American majors, but they are our top level of regular competition, and the girls are there.)

It seems crazy to me that you would take a less skilled player at any level, simply because he was male, if you have honestly tried and tested the available girl, agreed that she is better, and then chosen him instead anyway. If the girl isn't good enough, fine, but if she is, give her a go.

[Comm]

Ok, I have played School baseball against the girls team, and absolutely nailed them! Me and 3 others hit 3 homers each in a regulation size park, and the girls only managed 2 hits.

[sandlot]

Ok, I have played School baseball against the girls team, and absolutely nailed them! Me and 3 others hit 3 homers each in a regulation size park, and the girls only managed 2 hits.In other words, you played against a team that wasn't very good. That's all. But I think you're missing the point here, Comm. The issue being discussed is not whether an all-male team would be necessarily better than an all-female team. The question is not gender supremacy. The issue is whether any individual female should have the right to play at the highest level of organized ball to which her invidual talent, work ethic and competitiveness otherwise entitles her. The answer, to any non-bigot, has to be yes. She should have the chance to be as good as she can be.

So, what about the other side: Should a boy who really wants to play also have a chance to play on a girls' team? I think the general answer also has to be yes, assuming that (a) he's willing to take the unfortunate ribbing that his buddies are likely to give him, and (b) he's put alongside players of a similar age and ability. He'd probably have a hell of a lot of fun, make good friends and grow up to be the most popular guy on campus. :)

If baseball at lower levels were organized along lines that were gender neutral and graded only on demonstrated ability, we could all be having a much different discussion.

[NotAboutEgo]

In other words, you played against a team that wasn't very good. That's all. But I think you're missing the point here, Comm. The issue being discussed is not whether an all-male team would be necessarily better than an all-female team. The question is not gender supremacy. The issue is whether any individual female should have the right to play at the highest level of organized ball to which her invidual talent, work ethic and competitiveness otherwise entitles her. The answer, to any non-bigot, has to be yes. She should have the chance to be as good as she can be.

So, what about the other side: Should a boy who really wants to play also have a chance to play on a girls' team? I think the general answer also has to be yes, assuming that (a) he's willing to take the unfortunate ribbing that his buddies are likely to give him, and (b) he's put alongside players of a similar age and ability. He'd probably have a hell of a lot of fun, make good friends and grow up to be the most popular guy on campus. :)

If baseball at lower levels were organized along lines that were gender neutral and graded only on demonstrated ability, we could all be having a much different discussion.

Very good points. Comm doesn't seem to get the point that just because 2-3 people in his world have played against a few girls and have beat them, it means that all guys are better than all girls at baseball... anywhere in the world.

The whole talk about males being bigger and stronger, as a whole, than females has something to do with performance but not everything to do with it. Somehow long ago, people got the notion that size and strength equate to talent, ability, motivation, work ethic, intelligence, etc. about a sport, which they do not at all. A lot of people assume that just because guys, being gender-general, are bigger and stronger than women, it automatically makes them great at any and all sports and better than any female on the planet. That is one of them most ignorant thoughts in existence.

First of all, in general, males have more core strength than females (it's not about upper body strength like most think), and that can provide more power and velocity in certain aspects of certain sports. For example, in pitching, core strength and speed of and amount of torque affect the velocity of the pitch. Of course, other aspects factor into velocity, such as whether the wrist is loose and snaps effectively, what pitch one is throwing, their mechanics, balance, etc. But, mechanics is a HUGE part of it. If one has a lot of core strength, has a lot of torque and has good speed while torquing but has lousy mechanics and their pitching motion isn't fluid and connected, the results aren't going to be very good. It's the same with hitting. If someone has more torque and core strength than anyone but can't hit the elephant standing still in front of them, the core strength and torque are meaningless and are wasted.

So, it's not just about strength and size. It does play into it in bsaeball, but the mechanics, fundamentals, motivation, intelligence/instincts about the game, etc. play into it even more. It has to be the whole package. Sure, a guy in MLB is probably going to hit the ball harder and farther than the best female out there (but not in every case), based on size and core strength... no doubt about it. But, it doesn't mean he has better mechanics and fundamentals than the best female player, and it doesn't mean he will succeed more with his peers than she will with her peers, it doesn't mean she can't kick his butt in some way, etc. Perhaps he's someone who can't bunt even if his life depended on it, perhaps he can't field a ball or throw, etc. I have seem many guys who are very strong and can hit a ball harder than ever, but their mechanics are horrible, so they don't get many hits. If their mechanics were good, if they had great hand-eye coordination, etc., they would be successful.

I can think of many more examples to use of the differences between size/strength and talent/mechanics/ability, but I think most will get the point of my point. Even with the differences in size and core strength of males compared to females, it doesn't necessarily equate to the males being better and more successful players, AND it is absolutly NO REASON to say females should play softball instead of baseball. We can see that this view is a matter of ego and a closed mind and has NOTHING to do with talent, ability, mechanics, performance, etc.

If a woman is just as good AND better than a male, then she should be able to play at the level she is trying out for... whether it be a coed team, a men's team, or a women's team... amateur, high school, collegiate, or professional. And, she should certainly be able to play amongst her female peers without being told she has to play a sport she doesn't want to play.

[DownUnderDodger]

So, what about the other side: Should a boy who really wants to play also have a chance to play on a girls' team? I think the general answer also has to be yes, assuming that (a) he's willing to take the unfortunate ribbing that his buddies are likely to give him, and (b) he's put alongside players of a similar age and ability. He'd probably have a hell of a lot of fun, make good friends and grow up to be the most popular guy on campus. :)

This is very akin to Netball. 15-20 years ago Netball was exclusively a girls domain. Boys/men playing Netball was unheard of. In fact, at the company I worked with we had a couple of Netball teams playing in the Sydney Business Houses competitions, and I took it upon myself to "manage" those teams, which meant I took the water bottles and Oranges to the games. The sport was so female dominant that at one stage I was told that I was too vocal and if I did not stay quiet I would be excluded from attending the games (because I was a male). During this period we even had a couple of guys vs gals games and while the guys were not used to the stop/start rules of the game (as against the flowing game in Basketball), we generally won, beacuse of height advantages (some of the guys played in the Sydney Business HousesBasketball comps). Eventually though, because there were some men who decided they wanted to break down the 'barriers' the game opened up to males, and now there are some men's netball comps and also some mixed team comps.

So, yes, if a girl wants to enter a men's domain and play a sport a man should be able to do likewise the other way round.

[Baseball Mum]

Pegging the ball from third or short to first base IS part of fielding. You can't just get the ball and hold or throw it back to the pitcher (except maybe in rare circumstances)...you have to do something with it.



I just got home from playing a game with my husband and son. We are all on the team. (I am most definitely not one of the women with good skills that we are talking about here, but I enjoy playing.) There was a change of pitcher and my husband called to our 17yo daughter to throw out a ball so we could throw it around while he was warming up. The base coach from the other team made an assumption - "here, give it to me, I'll get it out there for you." She just looked at him, and gave it a little toss, getting it from the 3rd base dugout to her Dad who was standing deep at 2nd with a thwack into the glove. The look on his face was priceless ... so was the "oh, better than me".

[BaseballHistoryNut]

No because everytime I've heard of a man trying to play a womens sport it gets shot down because they'll be to dominant. In high school we had a girl wrestler because we had to a girl football player because we had to. As soon as a couple of us tried to play girls volleyball everybody flipped out. Why? Easy because we would've been to dominant.

"If men and women have equal talent, ability, training/coaching, and skills, all luck aside size speed and power will win out everytime."

Each girl would've ended up on the bench.

This analogy always gets made. And it's a terrible one.

Should high school freshmen be allowed to try out for the varsity team? Sure. Should high school seniors be allowed to try out for the freshman team? Obviously not, because they are big enough and strong enough that they will dominate and ruin the game for the freshmen.

But IF there are a couple of freshmen who are SO good that they can play well at the varsity level--or even dominate at the varsity level, as Shaquille O'Neill did in college, at L.S.U.--then why on earth should they be stuck playing freshman ball?

If a high school girl comes along who has: (1) the bat speed to hit well; (2) the foot speed out of the box to run tremendously after hitting the ball; and (3) both the athleticism and the savoir faireto play second base lights-out well, why shouldn't the boys' team be able to avail itself of her skills? And what on earth about that situation, with that very talented player, suggests that a bunch of boys should then be able to ruin the girls' team by taking their superior size and strength, and trying out for the girls' baseball team against girls of ordinary strength, size and bat speed?

BHN

[dw8man]

BaseballHistoryNut, I am confused by your post. Are you saying that it is okay for a really good female player to join a "male" only team, but it is not okay for a good male play to join a "female" only team because they would dominate?

Why should a male player lose* a position on a team to a better female player but not be allow to take away* a position from a female player on the female only team?

IMO..I think most posters on this site would argue that it is just as wrong to deny the male player a chance to play a sport because he is male as it is to deny a female.

Also, based on your analogy below, would it be okay if a not so good male player tried out for the "female" only team as long as he wouldn't dominate, and are you saying that only the very best female players should be able to try out for the "male" only teams?

*(I used the words "lose" and "take away" because I think that is how most people would frame the topic when discussing it)

[Baseball_Canada_21]

Jackie Mitchell became the first female professional baseball player when she signed a contract with the minor league Chattanooga Lookouts in 1931. Mitchell pitched in an exhibition game against the New York Yankees and struck out two of their stars, Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. Organized baseball then formally banned women from signing professional contracts with men's teams in 1952, and the prohibition is still in effect.

[Baseball_Canada_21]

I think if there is not a league or a place for a women or girl to play baseball then they should be able to play with a guys team. And also if the women is good enough to play at the level that the guys team and there is a womens team to play on she should still be able to play on a guys team because it may allow other women of a lesser skill levels to play baseball as well.

Highly leveled male baseball players would not want to play in a womens league because most often the league is not skilled as the mens league because men's leagues have been around a lot longer than the newly formed female leagues.

[dw8man]

If you didn't follow what I said, you're: (1) deliberately not trying to; (2) being intellectually disingenuous; or (3) god help you.

It is a shame that you have reacted to my post with such hostilities. I am simply trying to understand your argument and clarify what you have posted.



Did you follow what I said about freshmen being allowed to play on varsity teams when they are exceptionally talented? (Answer "yes" or "no".)
This makes sense but the player does not have to be exceptionally talented. We have a number of good freshman playing on our high school varsity teams eventhough there are Freshman teams. It is true that they are better then most of the other Freshman players. However any Freshman could have tried out for the Varsity team. Some choose not to because they wanted to play Freshman ball.



Did you follow what I said about how having seniors play on the freshman team would relegate the freshmen to the bench and ruin the game for them? (Answer "yes" or "no".)
Seniors do not play Freshman ball because it would "ruin" the game. Seniors are not allowed to play freshman or JV ball because these teams are set up to get the younger players more playing time and experience in preparation to play varsity ball. High School teams are not rec teams and what matters to most of them seems to be winning.



Can you honestly tell me that you do not see the parallel? "
I want to see it but still have questions that I hope you will anwser. BTW..Even if I see the parallel, it doesn't mean that I agree with it.




If not, then believe me when I say I've no further desire to communicate with you. I don't know how to make a parallel any more clearly than I made that one.
Isn't that kind of close minded. I am willing to accept your arguement with some more information. I do not like being a parriot so before I accept and use your analogy, I would like to fully buy into it.




OBVIOUSLY seniors who are 6'2" and weigh 225 pounds, and have played varsity football for 2 full seasons already, but have--for example--learned they will not get to start this year, should not be allowed to go take away positions from 5'10", 170-pound freshmen. ANYONE who's not an idiot or grossly unfair would agree with that.
See, I do not agree with that and am not an idiot. I believe the purpose of the freshman team is to develop younger talent to play varsity ball. They need to get playing time against fairly equal competition in order to improve. Putting a senior on a freshman team just so he can play one more year and never play for that school again, would not be in a coaches/school/teams best interest. Because of this, rules have been made to prevent older, more developed players from playing down.
If the purpose of the freshmen team was to just allow a player with less ability to play, then I do have a problem with them preventing a person from playing just because of age.



And most people would agree that if an exceptionally talented freshman comes along who is 6'4", 255 pounds, can block two rushers from the OLT position, is just as good a run blocker as he is a pass blocker, etc., etc., should be allowed to play on the varsity team from the get-go. For one thing, he's liable to hurt some poor freshman defensive end or blitzer. For another, he'll be one of the best players on the varsity team, from the time of his first practice onward.
I agree with that



But does this mean that varsity players who don't start should then be allowed to go play on the freshman team, take away the freshmen's starting positions, relegate them to the benches, and basically ruin their league for them? Of course not, and I'll bet you couldn't find one person who thinks that would be fair.
Just because a player is a senior doesn't mean that they will automatically take a starting postion from a freshmen. The problem is that the senior has passed his eligability age and is not allowed to play.



Do you honestly not see that we are talking about the same thing? I mean, just how clueless are you?
I still am not sure that the point you are making is really the best example of why women should be allowed to play on a men's team and men can not play on a women's team. Unless you are saying that in general, women are weak and not as good as almost every other man(That is not my opinion). Therefore, they need to be protected by having their own teams and only truely rare and exceptional woman should be allowed/permited to play on mens teams.


I do not agree that your analogy is a great example and that is why I was asking for more information. It is not due to a lack of intelligence or a desire to not agree with you. I just want to understand your ideas on when and who should get to play on what team.


If you would like to address the questions posted in my last post, I would love to continue but if you simply want to insult me and are unwilling to discuss/support your argument, then I sincerly hope you have a nice day!

[NotAboutEgo]

All the maple syrup in the world will not hide your passive-aggressiveness.

And I'll be content with the knowledge that everyone else who's read my posts on this thread surely can see the reason, the symmetry and the correctness of what I've said, no matter what they think about female athletes.

I completely understood what BBallHistoryNut said with the analogy. Why would guys want to play on a women's team if they have teams of their own to play on (not saying they shouldn't be allowed to but questioning why they would want to and not saying that women's teams are inferior to guys' teams)? Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to play on guy's teams if there aren't any women's teams of the same sport available to her? If there are guy's teams of a higher skill level than the women's teams that are available to a woman, then why shouldn't she be allowed to play on those guys' teams if she meets the requirements, if any? Same goes for women's teams... if a guy finds a more competitive women's team to play on and there aren't any men's teams in his area that are as competitive, then let him play. It has to go both ways.

But the problem we are talking about here is how women have been shoned from playing baseball for so long, in so many regions, on so many teams, and in so many leagues. I hardly see the same thing happening to guys who want to play baseball or other sports. Everytime the question is brought up about whether women should play baseball or not, someone has to make a comment about why guys aren't allowed to play in women's leagues. Perhaps the people out there saying women can't play and who are banning women from playing baseball need to let their egos go and stop banning women from doing so instead of turning the issue around and saying men are discriminated against when it comes to them playing sports. I HARDLY have seen guys having to put up with the things women have had to when it comes to playing baseball.

If a guy is trying to get on a women's team JUST because he is trying to create some chaos from it, then it's wrong. If a woman is trying to get a man's team for the same reason, it's wrong. I highly doubt most, if not all, women who want to play baseball play on men's teams JUST to create chaos. Rather, they love baseball and want to play and don't have women's teams available to them. If there are teams in their area and if they are beginner's teams or aren't at a high enough level for the women, why shouldn't they be allowed to play on a men's team that's at a higher level and not have to put up with harrassment from others to do so?

This ISN'T about women saying men can't play on their teams. If there's a women's team in a certain sport but there's no man's team in that sport and a man wants to play, let him. I see this as being more about ego than anything. Also, it's about those of us who love to strive toward reaching a higher level with baseball.

I have played baseball with guys... guys of all ages, even with guys in their prime 20's... who are solid athletes and players. I have no trouble at all hanging with them on the field. So, if a guy wanted to play on a women's baseball team because there aren't any guys' teams in his area, I would have no problem with that. I know that I and many other female baseball players would be able to hang with him easily. If he's at a much higher level than we are (like a pro or former pro, a minor leaguer, collegiate player, etc.), then so be it. Bring it on. Most guys who play at the rec. level aren't going to blow competitive, solid female players away.

I don't see that someone needs more explanation to what BBallHistoryNut originally posted, but that's me. Perhaps another person is new to this scenario and wants the scoop on it.

[Comm]

5lilplayers: "was never officially clocked, since baseball wasn't offered to girls/women other than local recreational leagues, we never had the equipment. I don't know how accurate they are, but I have been clocked between 75 - 80 mph (pitching) on those carnival games where you throw twice then get a prize if you guess the speed of your last throw...that was from the time I was around 15 until I was around 20."



:laugh :rolleyes:

[NotAboutEgo]

5lilplayers: "was never officially clocked, since baseball wasn't offered to girls/women other than local recreational leagues, we never had the equipment. I don't know how accurate they are, but I have been clocked between 75 - 80 mph (pitching) on those carnival games where you throw twice then get a prize if you guess the speed of your last throw...that was from the time I was around 15 until I was around 20."

:laugh :rolleyes:

Bring it on, Comm. If you think you are so good, let's see how well you fair against some of us female baseball players. You may not be laughing and rolling your eyes in the end. Or maybe you will be, but it will be at yourself for being so closed minded and being proven wrong!!!

Until you've seen women baseball players at levels other than whoever you played at your school, perhaps you shouldn't judge/think you are always going to beat women at baseball!

Who's laughing now?!!! :waving

[Captain Cold Nose]

Discussion is good. Petty bantering and posturing is not. The bickering will stop. If all one has to add is attempts to shoot down the abilities of others or just post smilies or have a personal argument, then you have zero to add. And zero is what will be left of that post.

[dw8man]

I am sorry that I did not understand BHN post or the postion taken, and I hope that I have not upset anyone. I was simply trying to gain some insight because the conclusion I came to after reading the analogy, I did not like. I think the analogy is a good example of why some groups of people are excluded from participating in some sports while others are allowed more oppurtunities and options. That being said, I do not think it justifies why men and women can not play on the same teams.

After having read and thought a lot about the orginal question, I do not think that the orginal question can be answered with a simple 'yes' or 'no'. My basic response to this question would be: I strongly feel that anyone should be able to try out for a baseball team at the collegiate and lower levels. However, I then have to add a slight caveot to that statement and it is; as long as they are public teams and no other like(baseball not fp) sproting team is available to them. Now, that being said, why do I exclude the Major league? Well, I think that they are not a truely public organization (please correct if that is wrong). If they are not, then they are allowed to set their own rules and if they wish to exclude, then I feel they have the right too. I do not agree with it and feel it hurts the game, but it is their organization and they can associate how the choose too. Also, If I am to say 'yes' then I have to add this; if you are going to mandate that a female can try out for a male team because there is not a team of the same sport for them to play on, then you have to also make the same rule for boys trying out for team sports that is currently only open to females and no other team exist for them.

This question is not easy to answer. Under some conditions, I would say "yes" and under others, I would say "no".

[NotAboutEgo]

I am sorry that I did not understand BHN post or the postion taken, and I hope that I have not upset anyone. I was simply trying to gain some insight because the conclusion I came to after reading the analogy, I did not like. I think the analogy is a good example of why some groups of people are excluded from participating in some sports while others are allowed more oppurtunities and options. That being said, I do not think it justifies why men and women can not play on the same teams.

After having read and thought a lot about the orginal question, I do not think that the orginal question can be answered with a simple 'yes' or 'no'. My basic response to this question would be: I strongly feel that anyone should be able to try out for a baseball team at the collegiate and lower levels. However, I then have to add a slight caveot to that statement and it is; as long as they are public teams and no other like(baseball not fp) sproting team is available to them. Now, that being said, why do I exclude the Major league? Well, I think that they are not a truely public organization (please correct if that is wrong). If they are not, then they are allowed to set their own rules and if they wish to exclude, then I feel they have the right too. I do not agree with it and feel it hurts the game, but it is their organization and they can associate how the choose too. Also, If I am to say 'yes' then I have to add this; if you are going to mandate that a female can try out for a male team because there is not a team of the same sport for them to play on, then you have to also make the same rule for boys trying out for team sports that is currently only open to females and no other team exist for them.

This question is not easy to answer. Under some conditions, I would say "yes" and under others, I would say "no".

I agree with what you are saying, and I also agree with you that I do not agree with MLB and the MLB-affiliated Minors and how they have banned women from playing, even though they have clearly shown (the ones who have proven it in the past) they can hang with the best of the guys. I also agree that if there's not a men's pro team of a certain sport but there is a women's pro team of that sport, the guys should be able to try out for it.

I don't think that every sport should be coed, and I don't think it's wrong to have separate teams based on gender, but it is wrong to discriminate and disclude one from playing based solely on gender and not wanting that gender to be part of the opposite-gendered team. And, that's what women have had to face when it comes to baseball, many other sports, and things in life in general. Are there biases and discrimination against guys? of course there are. I don't agree with those, either. It all boils down to segregation based solely on gender and egos and insecurity of those who don't want it to happen. Unfortunately, women have faced a LOT of that, at least in the U.S., since approx. 1866 (maybe even before that), when it comes to baseball.

Can ANYONE out there give one solid reason why women shouldn't play baseball (it cannot be a gender-based answer... and the strength/size issue is connected with that, so that's not legit, either)??? :lookitup

[NotAboutEgo]

Should Women Play Professional Baseball Again? (Yes, Again)
Baseball has already admitted women to its ranks. Will the MLB do it again?
Opinion

Brian Ross
Sr. Editor

Mamie "Peanut" Johnson was one of a small handful of women who played professional baseball. Not in the national association. Dr. Johnson played for the Indianapolis Clowns of the Negro Leagues in the 1950s, when another heinous form of segregation was still in effect.

For all you purists who scoff at the notion that women can play baseball, Dr. Johnson had a 38-6 career against men as a pitcher for Indianapolis. Not too shabby a record in a league with arguably some of the best athletes of their time. One of her mentors was the legendary Satchel Page.

It took modern, professional baseball a century to truly integrate African Americans and Hispanics, and more than a century to acknowledge that Asian players could play baseball.

Can Asians, Hispanics and African Americans play baseball? Without question. Can women play the national pastime in an age where women are CEOs and astronauts?

The fault lies not in their abilities, but in the male ego.

Male ballplayers grumble about the physical roughness that bars women from the sport. Yet it is the bruising of their egos, not the arms and legs of women, that is the far bigger barrier to women.

Many men would like to dispute that women can play as well as a great percentage of the men in the game, but it is more prejudice than fact. There are women who put up good numbers in colleges and in regional women's baseball and nascent semi-pro leagues. Mamie Johnson proved that sex is not a determining factor in pitching prowess.

We saw the PGA, the apex of another sport based more on skill than the ability to overpower, rocked by women daring to play in tour events.

The Williams sisters are rewriting the rules of tennis by redefining the physical power of the women's game. There are many highly ranked men in tennis who would not fare so well against either Venus or Serena.

While it is infrequent, women are being allowed to try out and are not being actively barred from minor league hockey.
The WPFL (Women's Professional Football League) fields semi-pro teams of women playing NFL-style, pads-on football that draw good crowds.

There are those that will argue that the physicality of basketball, football, or hockey create an uneven playing field that handicaps women. The national pastime lacks this excuse.

Baseball is a game of the physical, the psychological, and the emotional. So why are women barred in the 21st century from baseball? Changes in the game, and the wounding of male pride.

Women are physically able to pitch, hit, field, and run. Many are strong enough to keep up with and surpass many of their male counterparts. While there might not be a woman with the physical power of a Mark McGwire, most professional ballplayers aren't built as power hitters.

Women would bring a change in the psychology of baseball that would better it, but would change it in ways that would take a lot of re-education of men in the game.

Skin tone, as seemingly insurmountable a barrier as it has been, is far less daunting than applying female perspective to a male-dominated game.

If men are from Mars and women from Venus, women will undoubtedly change the game of baseball in the ways in which they play the game. While I may be seen by many of my gender as a Benedict Arnold, I'd have to say they'll change it for the better.

While I have no statistical data to back up the claim, I can say, based solely on observation, that today's women play a more team-oriented game. They play more strategically, much as men did back in the days before the free-agent, I'm-in-it-for-me, dixieland-style baseball clubs of today.

Like Dixieland bands, modern baseball clubs are collections of talented players, all playing their own gigs, hoping that a central rhythm evolves to keep them all glued together for the year or two that they have before finances send this or that player packing.
Minors As Proving Ground

Women, just like men, need to pay their dues, and work their way through the system. Introducing integrated baseball would undergo less shock if women were able to move up through the affiliated ranks just as the men do. Issues of ego, resentment for "losing" slots to women, and other issues might be resolved easier beginning at the entry-level ranks of baseball

The Next Jackie Robinson & Her Patron

Jackie Robinsons aren't born, they are discovered. A talent like Robinson would have disappeared into the legions of Negro League players had there not been the will to bring him into the game.

Visionaries the likes of Branch Rickey, Sr. are few and far between.

A respected person from baseball must step up and validate women in the MLB, just as those in the front office have validated Asian players. Right now, there isn't any indication that there is such a visionary.

Perhaps it will be the female ownership in minor ball clubs. Perhaps a female CEO of one of the conglomerates that owns a major league club will lead the call, or a male GM who longs for butts in now-empty seats.

Baseball needs to find ways to get into sync with the 21st century. In an age where the glass ceiling for women erodes by the day, admitting women to baseball that more and more mirrors the diversity of America would be a historic change that insures baseball's place as the leader of all professional sports for years to come.

-Ed.
:clapping

[Astro]

Should Women Play Professional Baseball Again? (Yes, Again)
Baseball has already admitted women to its ranks. Will the MLB do it again?
Opinion

Brian Ross
Sr. Editor

Mamie "Peanut" Johnson was one of a small handful of women who played professional baseball. Not in the national association. Dr. Johnson played for the Indianapolis Clowns of the Negro Leagues in the 1950s, when another heinous form of segregation was still in effect.

For all you purists who scoff at the notion that women can play baseball, Dr. Johnson had a 38-6 career against men as a pitcher for Indianapolis. Not too shabby a record in a league with arguably some of the best athletes of their time. One of her mentors was the legendary Satchel Page.

It took modern, professional baseball a century to truly integrate African Americans and Hispanics, and more than a century to acknowledge that Asian players could play baseball.

Can Asians, Hispanics and African Americans play baseball? Without question. Can women play the national pastime in an age where women are CEOs and astronauts?

The fault lies not in their abilities, but in the male ego.

Male ballplayers grumble about the physical roughness that bars women from the sport. Yet it is the bruising of their egos, not the arms and legs of women, that is the far bigger barrier to women.

Many men would like to dispute that women can play as well as a great percentage of the men in the game, but it is more prejudice than fact. There are women who put up good numbers in colleges and in regional women's baseball and nascent semi-pro leagues. Mamie Johnson proved that sex is not a determining factor in pitching prowess.

We saw the PGA, the apex of another sport based more on skill than the ability to overpower, rocked by women daring to play in tour events.

The Williams sisters are rewriting the rules of tennis by redefining the physical power of the women's game. There are many highly ranked men in tennis who would not fare so well against either Venus or Serena.

While it is infrequent, women are being allowed to try out and are not being actively barred from minor league hockey.
The WPFL (Women's Professional Football League) fields semi-pro teams of women playing NFL-style, pads-on football that draw good crowds.

There are those that will argue that the physicality of basketball, football, or hockey create an uneven playing field that handicaps women. The national pastime lacks this excuse.

Baseball is a game of the physical, the psychological, and the emotional. So why are women barred in the 21st century from baseball? Changes in the game, and the wounding of male pride.

Women are physically able to pitch, hit, field, and run. Many are strong enough to keep up with and surpass many of their male counterparts. While there might not be a woman with the physical power of a Mark McGwire, most professional ballplayers aren't built as power hitters.

Women would bring a change in the psychology of baseball that would better it, but would change it in ways that would take a lot of re-education of men in the game.

Skin tone, as seemingly insurmountable a barrier as it has been, is far less daunting than applying female perspective to a male-dominated game.

If men are from Mars and women from Venus, women will undoubtedly change the game of baseball in the ways in which they play the game. While I may be seen by many of my gender as a Benedict Arnold, I'd have to say they'll change it for the better.

While I have no statistical data to back up the claim, I can say, based solely on observation, that today's women play a more team-oriented game. They play more strategically, much as men did back in the days before the free-agent, I'm-in-it-for-me, dixieland-style baseball clubs of today.

Like Dixieland bands, modern baseball clubs are collections of talented players, all playing their own gigs, hoping that a central rhythm evolves to keep them all glued together for the year or two that they have before finances send this or that player packing.
Minors As Proving Ground

Women, just like men, need to pay their dues, and work their way through the system. Introducing integrated baseball would undergo less shock if women were able to move up through the affiliated ranks just as the men do. Issues of ego, resentment for "losing" slots to women, and other issues might be resolved easier beginning at the entry-level ranks of baseball

The Next Jackie Robinson & Her Patron

Jackie Robinsons aren't born, they are discovered. A talent like Robinson would have disappeared into the legions of Negro League players had there not been the will to bring him into the game.

Visionaries the likes of Branch Rickey, Sr. are few and far between.

A respected person from baseball must step up and validate women in the MLB, just as those in the front office have validated Asian players. Right now, there isn't any indication that there is such a visionary.

Perhaps it will be the female ownership in minor ball clubs. Perhaps a female CEO of one of the conglomerates that owns a major league club will lead the call, or a male GM who longs for butts in now-empty seats.

Baseball needs to find ways to get into sync with the 21st century. In an age where the glass ceiling for women erodes by the day, admitting women to baseball that more and more mirrors the diversity of America would be a historic change that insures baseball's place as the leader of all professional sports for years to come.

-Ed.
:clapping
Do you really think General Managers care about whether someone is a male or female? When their job is on the line, if there is a player that can help them win a Championship, get a raise and keep their job, then they will find them and sign them...

But since you seem to believe that there are boat-loads of women who could play at the major league level, throw some names at me... prove to me that I am wrong and that the big bad GMs are out to surpress women's rights and not allow them to play in Major League Baseball

[NotAboutEgo]

Do you really think General Managers care about whether someone is a male or female? When their job is on the line, if there is a player that can help them win a Championship, get a raise and keep their job, then they will find them and sign them...

But since you seem to believe that there are boat-loads of women who could play at the major league level, throw some names at me... prove to me that I am wrong and that the big bad GMs are out to surpress women's rights and not allow them to play in Major League Baseball

I guess it's not really up to the GM's at this point, because MLB and the Minor Leagues banned women from playing in their organizations years ago when women WERE beating MLB players at THEIR game. Why don't you ask some GM's if they had the choice of putting women on their teams if they could play just as well and/or better than the guys, if they would sign them? If they say no, then ask them why they say that? What do you think the answer will be?

I never said GM's are at fault. The male ego is what's at fault. The article I posted was written by someone else.

Have you ever seen women's baseball or any women play baseball before? Why do you think Jackie Mitchell and Mamie Peanuts Johnson and Babe Didrickson other women have been very successful at playing baseball even while playing with and against men? Do you think they were and forever will be the only ones out there capable of it?

Also, this thread isn't just about women playing in MLB. It's about women playing baseball period.