Francisco Liriano

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If Lirano develops into a star pitcher and/or Cy Young Award winner for the Twins I will forever despise Brian Sabean! :mad: :grouchy

[west coast orange and black]

"Brian has nine years of track record now, and he deserves full responsibility for that long period of work," Magowan said. "Eight of those years were very good and one was poor. I feel the poor record he had last year was a combination of some mistakes that were made in the way we evaluated our personnel, but a lot of it was not Brian's fault. It's not Brian's fault Armando Benitez got hurt and not Brian's fault that Bonds got hurt.

"I suppose I could get disenchanted with Brian with poor results," Magowan said. "In this game, people have to stand on their record. He knows that. That's the way it is in baseball. But I expect Brian always to do well. He's smart, he's creative, he works hard and he's got a good team of people around him."
-henry schulman, sf chronicle staff writer, sunday, 19 february 2006

it is said that timing is everything, wags.

here is the article (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/02/19/SPG3NHBH2C1.DTL&type=printable) about sabean in today's chronicle.

[KHenry14]

Sabes' next offseason reminds me of what Jerry Krause went through with the Chicago Bulls after MJ left. Krause had to completely rebuild that team, and he failed miserably. Will be very interesting to see if Sabes can do better... and my money's on him.

But Wags does have a point about Liriano...and Nathan too for that matter!:waving


KH14

[JonnyDomestik]

I'd be surprised if Sabean will be with us in a few years. While I think he's a good GM, he may be the wrong kind of GM for us in the post-Bonds years. These last three years of trying to make it back to the Series has made us function increasingly like a Frankenstein monster, shoving veteran free agents into the positions and trading our mid-level prospects (Foppert, Williams, Ainsworth et al) for veteran relievers. While we haven't gotten back yet doesn't mean this is the wrong thing because as long as Bonds is around, this frankenstein thing is the best we've got.
That said, once Bonds is gone we're going to have to run a real baseball team. Without Bonds, we're going to need an upgrade in many positions after the old men (Alou, Finley, Omar, Durham and Matheny, not to mention Benitez, Fassero, Schmidt and Morris). Do we really think that Sabean can fix that? Or can anyone?
We're going to be going into a rebuilding phase for sure but whoever's in the GM's chair is going to have to keep that time as short as possible.
And in the meantime let's win one with Bonds.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

After Bonds retires I expect a 2-4 year span of 85-90 loss seasons. The 2005 season was just a preview of what to expect. Sabean's complete drafting ineptitude will be the cause of this. Sabean has not developed a single quality position player in his helm as Giants' GM. :grouchy

[Honus Wagner Rules]

"Brian has nine years of track record now, and he deserves full responsibility for that long period of work," Magowan said. "Eight of those years were very good and one was poor. I feel the poor record he had last year was a combination of some mistakes that were made in the way we evaluated our personnel, but a lot of it was not Brian's fault. It's not Brian's fault Armando Benitez got hurt and not Brian's fault that Bonds got hurt.

"I suppose I could get disenchanted with Brian with poor results," Magowan said. "In this game, people have to stand on their record. He knows that. That's the way it is in baseball. But I expect Brian always to do well. He's smart, he's creative, he works hard and he's got a good team of people around him."
-henry schulman, sf chronicle staff writer, sunday, 19 february 2006

it is said that timing is everything, wags.

here is the article (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/02/19/SPG3NHBH2C1.DTL&type=printable) about sabean in today's chronicle.

west coast,

Why is that when I mention Sabean's lack of drafting success you always respond with "Yeah, but Sabean's been successful!" :D

The Giants past success doesn't change the fact that the Giants drafting has sucked. I look around the majors and I see some pretty awesome young prospects/players

Prince Fielder
Rickie Weeks
B.J. Upton
Justin Upton
Delmon Young
David Wright
Joe Mauer
Joe Francuer
Stephen Drew
etc.

The Giants NEVER have this kind of young talent and that is Sabean's fault. :ughh

[west coast orange and black]

i did not respond with "sabean has been successful."
it just so happened that an article about sabean was in the paper and so i linked it. :D

that said, sabean has pierzynski/nathan and the contracts of marvin benard and edgardo alfonzo as (uncharacteristic) low times. in the article, he muses over jeff kent, and what might have been. he also posits that when you have a barry bonds, he feels that you gotta go for it that season, as if it was gonna be the last. he will be forced to take a different tack after 2007, bonds' final season. i'm excited about where he's gonna go.
but first things first. i am excited about the 2006 season.

[west coast orange and black]

the prospects you listed are standputs, wags. but they happen to be be just 10 men on 30 teams.
i think that candy cain (tryin' to get used to that) stacks up right there with 'em.
i also think that a few other youngsters are gonna pay big dividends in the next few years.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

i did not respond with "sabean has been successful."
it just so happened that an article about sabean was in the paper and so i linked it. :D

that said, sabean has pierzynski/nathan and the contracts of marvin benard and edgardo alfonzo as (uncharacteristic) low times. in the article, he muses over jeff kent, and what might have been. he also posits that when you have a barry bonds, he feels that you gotta go for it that season, as if it was gonna be the last. he will be forced to take a different tack after 2007, bonds' final season. i'm excited about where he's gonna go.
but first things first. i am excited about the 2006 season.
Ok, but other than Matt Cain what other young player excites you? Who will carry the Giants 2008 and beyond? I just don't see much to be ethusiastic about. Where's Jack Clark when you need him? ;)

[west coast orange and black]

we will see if anothe ripper happens along.
(i'll take all those doubles but pass on the base-running.)

jack taschner is exciting but has already played in the bigs.
of those who have not: marcus sanders, travis ishikawa, merkin valdez, kevin frandsen, brian wilson and pablo sandoval.

[E.Banks#14]

Ok, but other than Matt Cain what other young player excites you?
Jerome Williams looks pretty good ;) David Aardsma has some potential :D

[west coast orange and black]

just goes to show how tough the game is, and that there are no guarantees.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

the prospects you listed are standputs, wags. but they happen to be be just 10 men on 30 teams.
i think that candy cain (tryin' to get used to that) stacks up right there with 'em.
i also think that a few other youngsters are gonna pay big dividends in the next few years.
We shall see. ;)

[Dravecky43]

I'm not exactly sure, but I think someone other than Sabean shares the drafting reigns. I think Dick Tidrow has been Director of Player Personnel or Scouting Director the past few years, and both of those positions have a lot of say as to who to pick.

BTW, Wags, those top prospects/rising stars you listed were not available when the Giants selected each of those years. Well, all except Wright. Every other guy you named was picked before the Giants picked their first time. The exception, Wright, was selected 38th overall in 2001. The Giants' first two picks that year? Brad Hennessey (21st) and Noah Lowry (30th). At the time, those were darn good picks.

I'm just saying that oftentimes the top talent isn't there when the Giants pick. This year will probably be different, though, as SF has the 10th overall pick.

[JonnyDomestik]

Even if Sabean shares responsibility, he is still the man in charge so the onus falls on him.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'm not exactly sure, but I think someone other than Sabean shares the drafting reigns. I think Dick Tidrow has been Director of Player Personnel or Scouting Director the past few years, and both of those positions have a lot of say as to who to pick.

BTW, Wags, those top prospects/rising stars you listed were not available when the Giants selected each of those years. Well, all except Wright. Every other guy you named was picked before the Giants picked their first time. The exception, Wright, was selected 38th overall in 2001. The Giants' first two picks that year? Brad Hennessey (21st) and Noah Lowry (30th). At the time, those were darn good picks.

I'm just saying that oftentimes the top talent isn't there when the Giants pick. This year will probably be different, though, as SF has the 10th overall pick.

Here's some articles about Sabean's drafting. I don't agree with all his conclusions but he makes some good points.

http://sfgiants.scout.com/2/266404.html

http://sfgiants.scout.com/2/343576.html

http://sfgiants.scout.com/2/354472.html


Often times the Giants sign FAs on the last day of signing and lose thier top pick in the draft. That is lame.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think back to the 1993 team and how much home grown talent they had:

Manwaring, Clark, Thompson, Williams, Lewis, Clayton, Burkett, Wilson, Beck, Hickerson, Brantley, Rogers, etc. Six of the eight starting position players were home grown. I miss those days.

[kdiddy63]

The Giants' first two picks that year? Brad Hennessey (21st) and Noah Lowry (30th). At the time, those were darn good picks.

Those are still good picks

A lot of our draft picks have been used in trades to get players to make a run at the World Series. They had better not do anything like that this year because when Bonds retires, the Giants are going to need to get some production from homegrown players.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Liriano is the top rated pitching prospect according Baseball America. :grouchy :grouchy

[west coast orange and black]

wags: I think back to the 1993 team and how much home grown talent they had... I miss those days.

dude, i miss those days, too. i will never forget that very exciting season.
103 wins, but 1 short. with the wild card system in place, it was the last true pennant race in major league baseball.

maybe a division win is just the ticket to make the past all fuzzy for a little while. ;)

[CTaka]

Ok, but other than Matt Cain what other young player excites you? Who will carry the Giants 2008 and beyond? I just don't see much to be ethusiastic about. Where's Jack Clark when you need him? ;)

I like Noah Lowry. He has done very well so far and I don't think he's hit his ceiling yet.

[TRIPxCORE]

The Giants certainly do seem to make some stupid decisions. Sabean has to be kicking himself over letting Nathan and Liriano go. Nathan being a stud closer, one of the top 5 in the league and then Liriano who is pegged as the second coming of Yohan Santana. Big mistakes indeed. :waving

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Liriano had 2 IP and 5 Ks today! You suck Sabean!!:grouchy

[Honus Wagner Rules]

If Lirano develops into a star pitcher and/or Cy Young Award winner for the Twins I will forever despise Brian Sabean! :mad: :grouchy
So far Liriano is 6-1, 2.10 ERA, 1.10 WHIP, .222 BAA, 10.34 K/9. :mad:

I'm sorry this really burns me. He should be pitching for the Giants, not the Twins! We would win the N.L. West this year with him. The only saving grace is that I have him on both of my fantasy teams. :D

[Honus Wagner Rules]

:ughh :o :eek:



If I were a betting man, I just might bet on Liriano (against Clemens). I don't think the world is aware of just how spectacular this guy is. I'll never forget talking to a scout in April who was watching the Twins, and he said, "I just saw the guy with the best stuff in baseball." I said, "You mean (Johan) Santana?" He said, "No, Liriano. His stuff is way better than Santana's." Well, I don't know if that's possible. I just know this guy has made six starts -- and given up one hit or two in HALF of them. But he has never started a game quite like this. It will be crazy in Houston, because it's Rocket Night. Tough to predict what Clemens might do, especially after only three tuneup starts. He has no track record this year. Liriano, on the other hand, has a spectacular track record. All I know is, if people tune in to watch Roger, they might find out they tuned in for the wrong pitcher.

[thecoach]

:ughh :o :eek:

Yes, but there are many bad trades, and you can't judge a man by one trade. If you did everyone would be afraid to make deals for fear of making that one bad trade!:hp

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yes, but there are many bad trades, and you can't judge a man by one trade. If you did everyone would be afraid to make deals for fear of making that one bad trade!:hp
I juat can believe that Sabien traded such a talented young pitcher, plus two thers for one year of A.J. Pierzynski. That just doesn't make any a sense. Sabien hasn't made that many great trades by the way.

[thecoach]

I juat can believe that Sabien traded such a talented young pitcher, plus two thers for one year of A.J. Pierzynski. That just doesn't make any a sense. Sabien hasn't made that many great trades by the way.

Look most of the time I agree with you but in this case you just can't let go and see the forrest for the trees. Yes he is a great pitcher but there was no certainty of that. As far as trade and the job Sabien has done I could not disagree more with you. He has made this team into one of the powers in the NL year after year with ownership that will not spend money. If you want to attack than ownership should be your target. His trade for Schmidt, for Winn, Finley, were one sided for the Giants. He has signed many free agents who start for us. Is he always right? NO. But he is more than he is wrong and with the money he is given to work with I think he has done a remarkable jib!:lookitup

P.S.: A.J. Pierzynski was not a one year deal when it was made. We needed a front line catcher and he would have been fine if he was not such an ass. Yes it was a mistake, but one made trying to make the Giants better. It just did not work out.:(

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Look most of the time I agree with you but in this case you just can't let go and see the forrest for the trees. Yes he is a great pitcher but there was no certainty of that. As far as trade and the job Sabien has done I could not disagree more with you. He has made this team into one of the powers in the NL year after year with ownership that will not spend money. If you want to attack than ownership should be your target. His trade for Schmidt, for Winn, Finley, were one sided for the Giants. He has signed many free agents who start for us. Is he always right? NO. But he is more than he is wrong and with the money he is given to work with I think he has done a remarkable jib!:lookitup

P.S.: A.J. Pierzynski was not a one year deal when it was made. We needed a front line catcher and he would have been fine if he was not such an ass. Yes it was a mistake, but one made trying to make the Giants better. It just did not work out.:(
You right of course, Sabien has several great trades. He is a good GM when it comes to getting a hidden jem in trades. But some of it has been luck. When we got Schmidt he wasn't that good in Pittsburgh. But as a Giant, he's the best Giants' pitcher since Marichal. Jeff Kent was just a throw-in in the Matt Williams trade. For most of his great trades he's traded away pitching prospects that didn't pan out. But Liriano is panning out. When people say that he better stuff than Johan Santana that just hurts. I've known about Liriano since about 2002. He got hurt one year and it seems the Giants just gave up on him. The Giants have a habit of doing of doing that; Aardsama, Williams, Nathan, Liriano, etc. Eventually, that's going come back to bite the Giants. I'm such a Giants' homer I just want them to win a title in the worst possible way. I've been a fan since about 1978 and I still wait for the elusive title. I know some on this board have waited much much longer than I have :o

[Honus Wagner Rules]

OK, I promise I won't rant about Francisco Liriano anymore. At least not until he wins his first Cy Young. :D

Come on guys, admit it, wouldn't Liriano look fricking awesome in orange and black right now? :p

[thecoach]

OK, I promise I won't rant about Francisco Liriano anymore. At least not until he wins his first Cy Young. :D

Come on guys, admit it, wouldn't Liriano look fricking awesome in orange and black right now? :p

Yes he would but hind sight is 20/20

P.S.: I have been waiting 20 years longer than you have!:eek: :rolleyes: :grouchy :ughh

[Francoeurstein]

Joe Francuer





It's Jeff. Jeff Francoeur. *James Bonds theme plays*

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yes he would but hind sight is 20/20

P.S.: I have been waiting 20 years longer than you have!:eek: :rolleyes: :grouchy :ughh
Really?! :eek: How did you keep from becoming an alcolohic? ;)

[SF Kid]

Really?! :eek: How did you keep from becoming an alcolohic? ;)He is an alcoholic. :p

Me, I'm smarter and have more patience than The Coach! Not by a lot mind you.

Hell we might win this thing in another 10 years.

[thecoach]

He is an alcoholic. :p

Me, I'm smarter and have more patience than The Coach! Not by a lot mind you.

Hell we might win this thing in another 10 years.

Have another drink Kid!:crazy

[SF Kid]

Have another drink Kid!:crazyYou've broke out the vino so early? Sigh. Wee're gonna have to get a bigger lock for that cellar.

[thecoach]

You've broke out the vino so early? Sigh. Wee're gonna have to get a bigger lock for that cellar.

Off with you head. The idea of locking up the wine!:laugh

[SF Kid]

Off with you head. The idea of locking up the wine!:laughI'm unclear what aqny of this has to do with Francisco Liriano. :rolleyes:

[SF Kid]

Hey that kid pitched great last night.

Wags wanted a shut out for some reason. I think he was in Vegas placing wagers! :eek:

[thecoach]

Hey that kid pitched great last night.

Wags wanted a shut out for some reason. I think he was in Vegas placing wagers! :eek:

Have a glass of wine!

[SF Kid]

Have a glass of wine!Now that wa completely uncalled for.

I don't drink wine at 8 in the morning unlike others I know. :0

[SF Kid]

Plus your last post was completely off topic to boot. :mad:

[thecoach]

Plus your last post was completely off topic to boot. :mad:

Then have a glass of OJ with a splash of whatever you would like!:noidea

[SF Kid]

Then have a glass of OJ with a splash of whatever you would like!:noideaOJ? Don't bring him in the conversation. That's not right.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Hey that kid pitched great last night.

Wags wanted a shut out for some reason. I think he was in Vegas placing wagers! :eek:
Actaully all I wanted was a complete game. I have Liriano on my fantasy team and our league counts complete games. He only had 96 pitches through eight innings but they sent in Nathan to close out the 9th inning. :grouchy

[SF Kid]

Actaully all I wanted was a complete game. I have Liriano on my fantasy team and our league counts complete games. He only had 96 pitches through eight innings but they sent in Nathan to close out the 9th inning. :grouchyI never got involved with Fantasy Leagues. Must be fun but I have always looked at it as too much work.

Well you must have gottre nsome points for his performance. WTG.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I never got involved with Fantasy Leagues. Must be fun but I have always looked at it as too much work.

Well you must have gotten some points for his performance. WTG.
Sure. I got the win, low ERA, low WHIP, and 8 Ks. Another nice outing for Liriano. His ERA is 2.17 for the season. Wow.

[SF Kid]

If Lirano develops into a star pitcher and/or Cy Young Award winner for the Twins I will forever despise Brian Sabean! :mad: :grouchyI think we may have screwed up! :o

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think we may have screwed up! :o
You think?! :rolleyes:

They refer to Liriano as "Johan Santana II" up in Minnesota...

[thecoach]

I think we may have screwed up! :o

Brilliant! But that is in the past. Lets not remind WAGS about this any more.:dance

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Brilliant! But that is in the past. Lets not remind WAGS about this any more.:dance
Yes, please don't...:p

[thecoach]

Yes, please don't...:p

My pleasure!

[SF Kid]

My pleasure!Man after Coach reminded me what we gave for that psycho A.J. it made me a little sick to my stomach. Sheese.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Man after Coach reminded me what we gave for that psycho A.J. it made me a little sick to my stomach. Sheese.
How in the world did Sabean get bamboozled in this trade? :crazy

[SF Kid]

How in the world did Sabean get bamboozled in this trade? :crazyGuess we needed a catcher bad. We still do IMO.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Guess we needed a catcher bad. We still do IMO.
What was wrong with Torrealba? I thought he had some potential.

[thecoach]

What was wrong with Torrealba? I thought he had some potential.

He could not catch. Bad problem if you are a catcher!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

He could not catch. Bad problem if you are a catcher!
Mike Piazza says hello. :waving

[thecoach]

Mike Piazza says hello. :waving


I know Mike Piazza and he's no Mike Piazza. Piazza can hit.:crazy

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I know Mike Piazza and he's no Mike Piazza. Piazza can hit.:crazy
Yes, I know. I was just messng with ya coach. :D

[thecoach]

Yes, I know. I was just messng with ya coach. :D

I must admit I knew you knew!;)

[thecoach]

You knew he knew but you had to spout off anyway. Why? This is not acceptable.

How did Piazza get into the conversation? We need a catcher.

I am not sure about that!:crazy

[thecoach]

Look, even when Matheny wasn't laying he wasn't doing jack.

What makes this guy so good in your eyes?

He sucks.

This guy is great with the pitchers, great in the club house, and is one of the few leaders on this team including F. Alou!:ughh

[SF Kid]

This guy is great with the pitchers, great in the club house, and is one of the few leaders on this team including F. Alou!:ughhAnd great on the trainers table. :rolleyes:

[Honus Wagner Rules]

FYI

Liriano this season:

10-1, 1.83 ERA, 0.97 WHIP, 102-23 K/BB :o