Are there any records that will never be broken??

[Tigerfan1974]

I think safe records are -

Young' s 511 wins
Rose's 4256 hits
DiMaggio's 56 game hit streak
Ryan's 7 no-hitters
Aaron's 2297 RBI
Henderson's stolen bases; 1406 - career, 130 - season
Ryan's 5714 strikeouts
Ripken's 2632 consecutive games

I think 73 HR in a season may be beat some day.
I think 755 HR in a career may also one day fall.

Will we ever see another -
400 hitter?
hitting Triple Crown winner?
30 game winner?

What say you?

Any other records that may stand forever?
Any record you think may fall? By who?

[Appling]

Cy Young's 511 wins will never be broken, nor will Cy Young's 749 complete games or Walter Johnson's 110 complete-game shutouts. Use of specialized relief pitchers will not allow so many complete games to be pitched.

Homeruns? I don't know -- someone may reach 90 or 100 someday (especially if seasons are made even longer). Certainly the 755 career homerun record will be broken, by Bonds or someone else.

[Bench 5]

Here's a few more:

Lifetime shutouts - 110 Walter Johnson
Most triples - 309 Sam Crawford
Season Triple - 36 Chief Wilson
Walks Season - 232 Barry Bonds
Lifetime average - .367 Ty Cobb
RBIs in a season - 191 Hack Wilson
Lifetime hits - 4,256 Pete Rose :crazy Don't bet on it:crazy

[abacab]

The records for starting pitchers, i.e. career wins, complete games, shutouts, wins in a season, etc. will not be broken because the game is played differently. Same for batting average records. No one will ever hit .400 unless they are a pure contact hitter, and there aren't any of those currently.

Hank Aaron's home run record will, unfortunately, be broken by Barry Bonds next year.

73 home runs in a season will probably be broken someday, though home runs are down around baseball, so it might not be for a while.

There will be another Triple Crown winner. Pujols is the most likely candidate.

Aaron's RBI record will eventually be broken - I say A-Rod will do it.

It's possible that Rose's hits record, Ryan's K record, and Rickey's steals will oneday be topped, but they were unique talents. It takes unique players to set those records. I don't think any current player will approach those records.

[digglahhh]

Virtually all those guys broke records that were previously deemed unbreakable.

[Dontworry]

The records for starting pitchers, i.e. career wins, complete games, shutouts, wins in a season, etc. will not be broken because the game is played differently. Same for batting average records. No one will ever hit .400 unless they are a pure contact hitter, and there aren't any of those currently.

Hank Aaron's home run record will, unfortunately, be broken by Barry Bonds next year.

73 home runs in a season will probably be broken someday, though home runs are down around baseball, so it might not be for a while.

There will be another Triple Crown winner. Pujols is the most likely candidate.

Aaron's RBI record will eventually be broken - I say A-Rod will do it.

It's possible that Rose's hits record, Ryan's K record, and Rickey's steals will oneday be topped, but they were unique talents. It takes unique players to set those records. I don't think any current player will approach those records.

" though home runs are down around baseball "

Homeruns are NOT down around baseball, I already started a thread proving that theory wrong.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38699

Anyway, I think any record is possible breaking, especially any homerun record.

A record That I dont think we'll ever see is a 50/50 season, 50 homeruns and 50 SB'S.

[RuthMayBond]

The records for starting pitchers, i.e. career wins, complete games, shutouts, wins in a season, etc. will not be broken because the game is played differently. Same for batting average records. No one will ever hit .400 unless they are a pure contact hitter, and there aren't any of those currently.What would you call Ichiro?

[RuthMayBond]

A record That I dont think we'll ever see is a 50/50 season, 50 homeruns and 50 SB'S.Who exactly has this record? :confused:

[Blackout]

I dont see anyone breaking Hack Wilsons 191

Manny tried in 99 but missed too many games

[RuthMayBond]

I'll start with perhaps the easiest :eek: of the ones I'm keeping track of, other than that the game has been going more towards offense. Hershiser's 59 straight shutout innings :eek: since Drysdale got within 98% of it in 1968

[abacab]

What would you call Ichiro?

Oh yeah. Yeah, Ichiro could hit .400, but I don't think he will because he's a leadoff hitter and all those extra PA's lower his chances. Personally I think the single-season hits record is more impressive than hitting .400.

[Ubiquitous]

Heres a tip if somebody else has gotten close in the somewhat near past then the record isn't unbreakable.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Who exactly has this record? :confused:
No one, and he's saying no one ever will hold that record. Not that it actually is a record, per se.
One record I am surprised has not been broken is Bobby Thigpen's single season save record. (57) And I would not be the least bit surprised if the record for home runs in a game (4) is broken in the near future.

[torez77]

You wanna see unbreakable records, look at the 19th century.

Duffy's .440
Radbourn's 59 wins
Hamilton's 192 runs
Spalding's 55-5
Nicols' 138 SB's
Kilroy's 513 K's
White's 75 CG's

Granted, a completely different kind of game.

[west coast orange and black]

an oft-overlooked but very respectable record is babe ruth's 177 runs scored in 1921. 177 is incredible.

[Ubiquitous]

Rickey Henderson had 130 stolen bases in 1982, I don't think 138 is unbreakable, on top of that Nicol didn't even really steal 138 bases.

[RuthMayBond]

an oft-overlooked but very respectable record is babe ruth's 177 runs scored in 1921. 177 is incredible.After Brooks Robinson's 6205 assists, that was my next one

[torez77]

Rickey Henderson had 130 stolen bases in 1982, I don't think 138 is unbreakable, on top of that Nicol didn't even really steal 138 bases.

Yeah, I was just going by the stat book. As I said, different game with different rules.

[torez77]

Another one is Keefe's 0.86 ERA. He did it in only 105 IP, but it is recognized as the all-time single season low.

[Edgartohof]

What is up with people always saying that these records are "unbreakable"? No they aren't. Some will last longer than others, and some MAY not be broken, but they aren't unbreakable. The question really should be, which record will last the longest? Of course that is taking to account 19th century stats, etc... due to changes in the game today, pitchers do throw 400+ innings, ect... so certain ones like that won't be seen unless the game changes back to that. But for other ones, such as hits, RBI, and all of those other ones, they all can be broken, and eventually, most of them will be - so much for them being unbreakable.

Gherig's consecutive games played was considered unbreakable,
so was Ruth's career HR's (and S.S), and
Cobb's hits records

The list goes on, all of them were considered unbreakable, until they were broken. So please stop saying "unbreakable records", instead use something like "least likely to be broken", or something to that effect.

[RuthMayBond]

What is up with people always saying that these records are "unbreakable"? No they aren't. Some will last longer than others, and some MAY not be broken, but they aren't unbreakable. The question really should be, which record will last the longest? Of course that is taking to account 19th century stats, etc... due to changes in the game today, pitchers do throw 400+ innings, ect... so certain ones like that won't be seen unless the game changes back to that.And that's what a lot of these are. But even some of the offensive records have been around for almost 70 years or more

[Brian McKenna]

phillies batted .350 in 1894

june 29, 1897 the colts scored 36 runs in a 36-7 victory (well, this could be broken)

highlanders swept 5 doubleheader in six days in 1906

On May 17, 1914 Babe Adams pitched and won a 21-inning game over Rube Marquard without allowing a single walk

[Honus Wagner Rules]

an oft-overlooked but very respectable record is babe ruth's 177 runs scored in 1921. 177 is incredible.
Billy Hamilton has the runs record at 192. That's more incredible. And I don't want to hear the word "modern". :grouchy

:D

[west coast orange and black]

"sorry" in advance, wags.

here's "modern", whether you want to see it, or not. :D

both records are eye-popping. but ruth's is more stand-out than hamilton's, in my book.

[Blackout]

Pedro Martinez's 285 ERA+ most likely wont be broken anytime soon, because if Clemens couldn't do it last year then I don't think anybody will

[csh19792001]

Q: Are there any records that will never be broken??

A: Yes, here's one hell of a "candidate". (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=39537)

;)

[RuthMayBond]

Q: Are there any records that will never be broken??

A: Yes, here's one hell of a "candidate". (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=39537)

;)Great, although Hornsby took a run at it

[Sultan_1895-1948]

>>> .690 <<<

[Dontworry]

Who exactly has this record? :confused:

I meant I dont think anyone will ever set that record, or feat, or whatever you want to call it.

[Dontworry]

Pedro Martinez's 285 ERA+ most likely wont be broken anytime soon, because if Clemens couldn't do it last year then I don't think anybody will

I agree, But then again People are already comparing santana to pedro, if anyone can do it, it's him.

Also pedro's .74 WHIP in 2000 seems untouchable, then again maybe johan can prove me wrong.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan: .690

yeah.
to me, the greatest records are the ones achieved over a player's career.
and this one is written in ink.

[csh19792001]

>>> .690 <<<

Well, I used to think that was completely unassailable, then I saw Barry Bonds (age 37-40, mind you) go out and slug .809 for a full four years. He slugged .781 for the 5 year period of 2000-2004.

In fact, Sultan, from 1998-2004 Barry slugged .731, and that includes the year he was injured. Barry hooked up with Team Balco in 1998. What if he'd hooked up with them much earlier? From the beginning of his career through 1997, Barry's slugging percentage was an excellent .551- outstanding, but not other-wordly.

From 1995 till the end of his career (2001) Mark McGwire slugged .683, and that's with a relatively poor BA. Up till 1995, McGwire's career slugging had been a paltry .523. He all but admitted steroid use before Congress, and all the evidence points towards him using, regardless.

See, this is what happens-steroids completely distort the record books in this way, and bring into play .690, which for 60+ years was considered completely untouchable. Now I'm not sure it is anymore.

[Sean Casey]

Along with Young's 511 wins, I think 7356 innings pitched is pretty much untouchable. Other than those, there are few major records that I would be willing to say are unbreakable.

[Iron Jaw]

complete Same for batting average records. No one will ever hit .400 unless they are a pure contact hitter, and there aren't any of those currently.

.

I think Ichiro would be considered a pure contact hitter.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Well, I used to think that was completely unassailable, then I saw Barry Bonds (age 37-40, mind you) go out and slug .809 for a full four years. He slugged .781 for the 5 year period of 2000-2004.

In fact, Sultan, from 1998-2004 Barry slugged .731, and that includes the year he was injured. Barry hooked up with Team Balco in 1998. What if he'd hooked up with them much earlier? From the beginning of his career through 1997, Barry's slugging percentage was an excellent .551- outstanding, but not other-wordly.

From 1995 till the end of his career (2001) Mark McGwire slugged .683, and that's with a relatively poor BA. Up till 1995, McGwire's career slugging had been a paltry .523. He all but admitted steroid use before Congress, and all the evidence points towards him using, regardless.

See, this is what happens-steroids completely distort the record books in this way, and bring into play .690, which for 60+ years was considered completely untouchable. Now I'm not sure it is anymore.

I see where you're coming from Chris, but that number is set in stone. Teddy Ballgame isn't within 55 points of it.

For the players you speak of though, it took a few of the greatest power hitters ever, in an era that favored slugging, in only a short span, under suspicious goings on.......to even come close.

We're talking .690 in a career, where everything is taken into account.

Just for fun, let's only include Babe's seasons from 1919 on. Before then, he had spurratic AB, not really getting into a rhythm, and his attention/focus was split.

Leaving all of his decline in there, but just starting from 1919, we have 5446 TB in 7720 AB. That's a career .705 SA.

Of course we can't do that, but the argument could be made.

Anyway, it's in stone. No worries.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I think Ichiro would be considered a pure contact hitter.

Perhaps he's TOO GOOD of a contact hitter and should be more selective at the pitches he swings at. More walks, more hard hit balls, higher batting average.

[Ubiquitous]

Wade Boggs over a 162 game scheule once hit .400 so it is definitely possible to hit .400 again. It was Boggs' misfortune to do it through the end of one season and the start of another.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Well, I used to think that was completely unassailable, then I saw Barry Bonds (age 37-40, mind you) go out and slug .809 for a full four years. He slugged .781 for the 5 year period of 2000-2004.

In fact, Sultan, from 1998-2004 Barry slugged .731, and that includes the year he was injured. Barry hooked up with Team Balco in 1998. What if he'd hooked up with them much earlier? From the beginning of his career through 1997, Barry's slugging percentage was an excellent .551- outstanding, but not other-wordly.

From 1995 till the end of his career (2001) Mark McGwire slugged .683, and that's with a relatively poor BA. Up till 1995, McGwire's career slugging had been a paltry .523. He all but admitted steroid use before Congress, and all the evidence points towards him using, regardless.

See, this is what happens-steroids completely distort the record books in this way, and bring into play .690, which for 60+ years was considered completely untouchable. Now I'm not sure it is anymore.

One day a hitter of the caliber of Bonds, Pujols, or Frank Thomas will play in Coors Field and it will be an amazing experience for baseball fans. Put the 2001 Barry Bonds in Coors Field and he easily hits .400.

[Brian McKenna]

One day a hitter of the caliber of Bonds, Pujols, or Frank Thomas will play in Coors Field and it will be an amazing experience for baseball fans. Put the 2001 Barry Bonds in Coors Field and he easily hits .400.

amazing or kind of a joke

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The latter.

How bout Shoeless hitting .408 as rookie?

Didn't Matty have a consecutive innings w/out a BB streak of 68 or 65 innings or something. Can't remember the exact number. It might have been broken recently by Maddux :confused:

[csh19792001]

I see where you're coming from Chris, but that number is set in stone.

Anyway, it's in stone. No worries.

Good. That's what I hope too. :waving

[RuthMayBond]

Didn't Matty have a consecutive innings w/out a BB streak of 68 or 65 innings or something. Can't remember the exact number. It might have been broken recently by Maddux :confused:Maddux had 72, I wonder how close Eck or Tewksbury got. It'd be tough with the modern disappearing strike zone :grouchy

[Buzzaldrin]

Here's one, guys, one of my faves. It sounds so simple, and in reality, it should be- because it doesn't matter what era or what rule changes happen, it's still an available record for anyone to attack, and yet, no one- I mean NO ONE- ever does it.

Lead your league in doubles, triples, and homers in the same year.

Tip O'Neill did it in 1887. That's it. The only time. Slugging, homer, and average records come and go, but still, no one's equalled that one year.

And point of precedence- we will have another .400 hitter again. Brett, Gwynn, and Carew came close enough to show us that it can and will be done.

And hgat could Teddy Ballgame have done with slugging if he hadn't got hurt in 1950- he himself said he never hit the same afterwards, and this is the guy who hit .388 in '57 without a single infield hit because he was too old to beat them out. I bet he could've slugged at least .670 lifetime and hit at least .355 if he'd played his war years and not got injured.

What a shame.

[RuthMayBond]

Here's one, guys, one of my faves. It sounds so simple, and in reality, it should be- because it doesn't matter what era or what rule changes happen, it's still an available record for anyone to attack, and yet, no one- I mean NO ONE- ever does it.

Lead your league in doubles, triples, and homers in the same year.

Tip O'Neill did it in 1887. That's it. The only time. Slugging, homer, and average records come and go, but still, no one's equalled that one year.Um, HR records are power, triple records are speed, and doubles is a mixture, so eras do matter. Long fences help 2B & 3B but hurt over-the-fence HR. Sam Thompson gave it a heck of a try, Cy Seymour, Wagner, Cobb, Musial!

[west coast orange and black]

Ubiquitous: Wade Boggs over a 162 game scheule once hit .400 so it is definitely possible to hit .400 again. It was Boggs' misfortune to do it through the end of one season and the start of another.

ah, the legendary "hidden season."
a "hidden season" in baseball is the length of time that it takes a team to play, over the course of two consecutive seasons, 162 games (or 154, depending).

over the final 107 games of the ’1985 season boggs batted .402.
then by 8 june 1986, the 162nd game of the skein, boggs had batted in 160 of 'em for an even .400

note 1: at the end of the 154th game boggs was at .402

note 2: tony gwynn hit .398 from 1 july 1993 – 1 july 1994

[west coast orange and black]

wags: Put the 2001 Barry Bonds in Coors Field and he easily hits .400

bkmckenna: ^^ amazing or kind of a joke

^^ change "or" to "and", and i agree.

[digglahhh]

Um, HR records are power, triple records are speed, and doubles is a mixture, so eras do matter. Long fences help 2B & 3B but hurt over-the-fence HR. Sam Thompson gave it a heck of a try, Cy Seymour, Wagner, Cobb, Musial!

But everybody is up against the same overall scenarios, excluding their own park's nuances. It makes no difference the raw total, only that the same player lead in all categories. Whether he needs 20 or 60 doubles to do so is irrelevant.

[west coast orange and black]

from 2001-04bonds slugged .809
from 2000-04 bonds slugged .781
from 1998-04 bonds slugged .731
from 1995-01 mcgwire slugged .683

the great albert pujols is sittin' at .621 after his first five amazing seasons.
now all he has to do to reach .690 in a 20-year career is slug .713 in each of his next 15 seasons.

or, should he wanna retire after 15 seasons, slug 1.070 in each of the next 10.

[Ubiquitous]

But everybody is up against the same overall scenarios, excluding their own park's nuances. It makes no difference the raw total, only that the same player lead in all categories. Whether he needs 20 or 60 doubles to do so is irrelevant.


The skillset required to do all has changed dramatically since Tip did it, plus throw in the fact that more players and more teams are in a league and one can see why it is harder to do.

In bygone days a double, triple, and homer could be lumped into one category. Hit the ball into a gap or past an outfielder and get as many bases as possible. Nowadays one could lead in homers and doubles but would then need another skillset to get the triples. This wasn't true many many decades ago, which is why when you look at the leaderboard the "sluggers" of eras past led the triple category while nowadays its the small little speedy guys doing it. Ty Cobb, Joe Jackson, Honus Wagner vs Lance Johnson, Jimmy Rollins, Christian Guzman.

To do it one would need Mickey Mantles skillset to do it. Unfortunately he could never stay healthy enough or get enough at bats to do it. Though in one year he did lead in triples and homers, Mickey never really hit a lot of doubles.

[Ubiquitous]

Stan Musial never led his league in homers yet in 1943, 1946, 1948, and 1949 he led the league in doubles and triples and in 1948 he finished one homer behind the leaders. Wasn't 1948 the year he lost a homer to a rainout?
Hornsby missed it by 2 homers one year

[Buzzaldrin]

There's no snese in writing who came close- lots of people have come close, but no one has somehow managed to do it all.

It would take a Musial or a Hornsby- it would take an all time great to do it. That'w why no one's done it since 1887. It's harder than the triple crown, but shouldn;t be impossible/ Guys like Steve Finley and Bobby Abreu have led the league in triples and can still bang out over 30 and hit .300, so it CAN be done, like in every era, it just isn't done.

[RuthMayBond]

Guys like Steve Finley and Bobby Abreu have led the league in triples and can still bang out over 30 and hit .300, so it CAN be done, like in every era, it just isn't done.But when Finley & Abreu led the league in triples they didn't bang out over 30 (which won't lead the league nowadays anyway)

[Francoeurstein]

I don't know if it was mentioned but 17 15+win seasons in a row by Greg Maddux, who also has most consecutive inning without a walk.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Nolan's siete no no's

Gagne's streak, but seems breakable if the right person is used in the perfect way, and he gets some breaks.

[Buzzaldrin]

But when Finley & Abreu led the league in triples they didn't bang out over 30 (which won't lead the league nowadays anyway)

Well, it's going to take more than a Steve Finley to do it, obviously. But there has never been an era in baseball when it's been impossible, like 60 wins or a .440 average. It's going to take a Cobb, Ruth, or Musial- and those guys have all come close (yes, that includes Ruth- look at his doubles and triples in 1921), but there will be more players who are good enough to take a shot at it.

Thing is, in spite of it all, none of those guys have actually managed to do it. You'd think it would happen more than once.

And power hitters still lead the league in triples occcasionally. Jim Rice did it, Dick Allen did it, hell, Willie Mays did it three times!

[Calif_Eagle]

Sam Crawford hit 51 inside-the-park home runs in his career for the all-time record in this "category". This is sort of a cheesy choice for a record I think will probably never be broken. But we no longer have open outfields with parking for horse drawn carriages. The modern trend in Stadium construction is to eliminate extremes like the 440 CF at Tiger Stadium, the 460 CF at Yankee Stadium, the 500 or so it was to CF in the Polo Grounds, etc. So with relatively uniform stadium dimensions and much less square footage of fair territory in outfields, records for ITP HR and triples are all probably very secure. Is there any record that is thought to be "unbreakable" that doesnt have a large "conditions of the era it was set in" dependency? the 56 game hitting streak of Joe DiMaggio comes to mind as a non era dependent record. I like Carl Hubbell's 24 game winning streak myself and Grover Cleveland Alexanders 16 shutouts in one season. I think those two will stand quite awhile yet.

[RuthMayBond]

Is there any record that is thought to be "unbreakable" that doesnt have a large "conditions of the era it was set in" dependency? the 56 game hitting streak of Joe DiMaggio comes to mind as a non era dependent record. I like Carl Hubbell's 24 game winning streak myself and Grover Cleveland Alexanders 16 shutouts in one season. I think those two will stand quite awhile yet.Alexander's record was kinda era-dependant (lower-scoring era). But there are ones like Brooksie's assists, Ruth's runs in a season, Brooksie's DP, Ron Hunt's HBP in a season, Cobb's consecutive .300+ BA seasons, Ted Williams' consecutive games on base, and several more records that are LESS breakable :eek:

[Calif_Eagle]

Alexander's record was kinda era-dependant (lower-scoring era). But there are ones like Brooksie's assists, Ruth's runs in a season, Brooksie's DP, Ron Hunt's HBP in a season, Cobb's consecutive .300+ BA seasons, Ted Williams' consecutive games on base, and several more records that are LESS breakable :eek:
Yes, no sooner than I put GCA's shutout mark up, I realized that it is a deadball record, but also that pitchers in his day were getting more starts. So that is fairly era dependent also & I would strike that one. I have always wondered why Ted Williams doesnt get a lot more pub for his consecutive games reached base record, which is 84 in 1949. Today, with the emphasis on OBP & all the talk about "Money-ball" & not making or wasting outs, I would think this record would have been propelled to much more prominence than it currently seems to have. (When I DID try to find out who held that record, and what it was, a couple of years back I had to search a LOT of sites before I got it.)

[geezer]

Nolan Ryan's 7 no-hitters in 7 more than Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Steve Carlton, Curt Schilling, Don Sutton, Pedro Martinez, Mark Mulder and Tim Hudson, COMBINED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And right now, the only active pitcher with multiple no-nos is Randy Johnson, and is on pace for 4,500 strikeouts, but will still be at least 1,000 Ks short of Ryan's 5,714 because he entered the majors at 25, and miss most of the 1996 season injured.

[Buzzaldrin]

well, hate to say it, but the oldest non era dependant record out there is still the one I put forth- leading the league in doubles, triples, and homers in the same season- 119 years and counting...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

>>> .690 <<<
One day a hitter in the Pujols or Frank Thomas caliber will play for the Rockies and Ruth's .690 SLG may go. Helton has slugged .693 at home and he is no where near the hitter Pujols is and Frank Thomas was.

[RuthMayBond]

well, hate to say it, but the oldest non era dependant record out there is still the one I put forth- leading the league in doubles, triples, and homers in the same season- 119 years and counting...With fences moved in, triples hitters are generally not now the same type of hitters as HR hitters

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

Germany Schaefer's career thefts of 1B: 2
Un-Breakable.:lookitup :D

[RuthMayBond]

Germany Schaefer's career thefts of 1B: 1
Un-Breakable.:lookitup :DMy understanding is he did it twice
9/4/1908
8/4/1911

[Go Bravos!!!#1]

Really, I had no idea he did it twice??? hmm, okay I'll edit it.

[geezer]

And what about Ty Cobb's career .367 batting average, along with his 12 batting titles, 4 more than Honus Wagner and Tony Gwynn.

But nobody had mention that Babe Ruth is the only person to lead the league in home runs, runs scores and RBI in the same season, and he did a record 6 times, in 1919-1921, 1923, 1926 and 1928. Not only that, after Ruth did, only 2 people had done this feat more than once ever, Ted Williams three times 1942, 1947 (Won Triple Crown both years), and Hank Aaron twice (1957 and 1963).

And Lefty Grove lead the American League in ERA 9 times, Roger Clemens lead the American League in that category 6 times and in the National League once.

[Murderers Row]

Wow, no one mentioned Vander Meere's back to back no hitters. No one will EVER throw 3 no hitters in a row.

[geezer]

Wow, no one mentioned Vander Meere's back to back no hitters. No one will EVER throw 3 no hitters in a row.

How about 2 no-hitters in a season, the last to do it was Nolan Ryan in 1973.

Oh, here's another thing, the last no-hitter in the majors was May 18, 2004, i'm desperate to see one again.

And speaking of Ryan, no one will eclipse his 383 strikeouts also in 1973, the closest to reach that point was Randy Johnson with 374 in 2001.

And speaking of team record that will never be matched, the 1984 Tigers started 35-5.

[Reed Johnson]

Germany Schaefer's career thefts of 1B: 2
Un-Breakable.:lookitup :D

Please explain.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

One day a hitter in the Pujols or Frank Thomas caliber will play for the Rockies and Riuth .6901 SLG may go. Helton has slugged .693 at home and he is no where near the hitter Pujols is and Frank Thomas was.

lol, Helton slugged .693 in basically half of his games? We're talking about a career here HWR :laugh

There's nobody I would love to see approach it any more than Albert, but if he needs Coors Field to do it, I'll place a mental asterisk by it. Might as well hit a golf ball in that stadium. Lol, it's brutal. The ball carries like hell, and because of that, no pitchers in their right mind would ever choose to pitch their, unless they've already done enough elsewhere to warrant a large contract (cash grab). To go there and try to put up numbers to get a big contract though, lol, fuggeddaboudit. So you'll always have scrubs pitching in that rarified air. A double whammy !! I think .690 is up on the wall with 511, 56, 110, and .367.

[Baseball Guru]

I think safe records are -

Young' s 511 wins



Lots of good ones already listed...

On the same theme as Young's 511 wins never being broken, his career 316 losses will never be broken either:)

[RuthMayBond]

Wow, no one mentioned Vander Meere's back to back no hitters. No one will EVER throw 3 no hitters in a row.No pitcher will ever get three wins in one day, but how small of numbers do we allow for records?

[RuthMayBond]

Please explain.The rules have been changed to disallow stealing from second to first

[RuthMayBond]

But nobody had mention that Babe Ruth is the only person to lead the league in home runs, runs scores and RBI in the same season, and he did a record 6 times, in 1919-1921, 1923, 1926 and 1928. Not only that, after Ruth did, only 2 people had done this feat more than once ever, Ted Williams three times 1942, 1947 (Won Triple Crown both years), and Hank Aaron twice (1957 and 1963).What am I missing, folks?

[Captain Cold Nose]

What am I missing, folks?
Mind reading ability.

[geezer]

What am I missing, folks?

Have to edit that, is not the only person, is the person thas had led those categories the most.

[Metal Ed]

lol, Helton slugged .693 in basically half of his games? We're talking about a career here HWR :laugh

There's nobody I would love to see approach it any more than Albert, but if he needs Coors Field to do it, I'll place a mental asterisk by it. Might as well hit a golf ball in that stadium. Lol, it's brutal. The ball carries like hell, and because of that, no pitchers in their right mind would ever choose to pitch their, unless they've already done enough elsewhere to warrant a large contract (cash grab). To go there and try to put up numbers to get a big contract though, lol, fuggeddaboudit. So you'll always have scrubs pitching in that rarified air. A double whammy !! I think .690 is up on the wall with 511, 56, 110, and .367.


While your observations on the utter absurdity of Coors Field are all true, I'm not understanding the "double whammy" part. If no pitchers would want to pitch there, then the Rockies won't get any good pitchers. So all the good pitchers will go to the other teams in the league, which wouldn't help the Rockies hitters. So it's no "double whammy". But hey, the single whammy of Coors Field is a big enough whammy on its own - yeah?

[Ubiquitous]

The rockies should give me a call. I could pitch at Coors and it would have no effect on my performance.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

While your observations on the utter absurdity of Coors Field are all true, I'm not understanding the "double whammy" part. If no pitchers would want to pitch there, then the Rockies won't get any good pitchers. So all the good pitchers will go to the other teams in the league, which wouldn't help the Rockies hitters. So it's no "double whammy". But hey, the single whammy of Coors Field is a big enough whammy on its own - yeah?

It's not likely that the Rockies will ever be able to draw good pitching to come there. So visiting teams benefit from the air, and the subpar staff because of the air. That's the double whammy I was referring to ;)

[Metal Ed]

It's not likely that the Rockies will ever be able to draw good pitching to come there. So visiting teams benefit from the air, and the subpar staff because of the air. That's the double whammy I was referring to ;)


Oh, you meant it's a double whammy for the Rockies, as far as fielding a winning team goes. Got it. Yeah, I agree. They need to make a special ball for Coors only, one with higher seams and deader insides.

[Buzzaldrin]

Lots of good ones already listed...

On the same theme as Young's 511 wins never being broken, his career 316 losses will never be broken either:)

I don't know- Ryan came within 30, and Niekro and Perry arenät that far behind. If we have another era like we did in the 60's and 70's where it was quite common to start 40 games in a season a few times in your career if you were a good workhorse (hasn't happened once since 1986), it could easily happen- especially if another Wilbur Wood or Niekro comes along.

And Ryan's 383 will fall one day- if Johnson can come within one good start of it, someone will beat it. Ryan took 39 starts and two relief appearances to set the record, Koufax 41 starts and 2 relief appearances to get 382, and Johnson broke 370 in almost 100 fewer innings than either of them.

It'll happen.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Too many records to even mention.... that may not be broken. The reason, changes in the game. Who will hit 37 triples to break that 36 by Chief Wilson, park distances too short.

Alexander's 16 shut outs. How many pitchers in todays game even pitch 16 complete games. In the last 15 years no entire team has even reached 30 complete games in a season.

[Ubiquitous]

The problem with the Rockies is that they are a bad team and have been for a very long time. It isn't Coors Field or the altitude that is causing that. You put the 1998 Yankees in Coors and they are still going to win the world series.

The Rockies have failed to develop talent and outside of their initial years of acquisitions have failed to bring top tiered talent as well.

Their draft record is abysmal. With almost none of them pitchers and positional players developing into anything close to a regular spot in a major league roster. With the exception of course of Todd Helton.

Decent Draft Picks:
Todd Helton
Jake Westbrook
Chone Figgins
Juan Pierre

Decent Signings or Trades
Vinny Castilla
Ellis Bruks
Andres Galarraga
Larry Walker
Dante Bichette
Mike Hampton
Todd Walker
Eric Young

This team has not developed talent nor has it brought in any talent through trades or signings. Take a look at the 2005 team. That team was bad and would be bad regardless of where they played. Their offense was horrible and has been for awhile. Get good players and the team will win, its the same formula for everybody else.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Just thought I'd bring this thread up for you SoberDennis. ;)

[Gee Walker]

Wow, no one mentioned Vander Meere's back to back no hitters. No one will EVER throw 3 no hitters in a row.

Not unless Pedro is on the mound for three straight home games and ENRON has taken over the electric power contract at Shea...

[Buzzaldrin]

Good call- that's another one like Tip O'Neill's thing; a lot of people have come close, but no one's actually done it since the first and only time.

[Brian McKenna]

what's a record and what is an achievement?

consecutive no-hitters seems like an achievement, in fact a no-hitter is really just an achievement

[geezer]

what's a record and what is an achievement?

consecutive no-hitters seems like an achievement, in fact a no-hitter is really just an achievement

And there's only 1 active pitcher with multiple no hitters (Randy Johnson).

The other active players with a no-no under its resume are:

1. Kent Mercker
2. Kevin Millwood
3. Derek Lowe
4. David Wells (perfect game)
5. Kenny Rogers (perfect game)
6. Eric Milton
7. AJ Burnett


And lets not talk later about the future records that Pujols will break.

[redbuck]

In 2005 Sosa broke the all time strikeout record. That should last a while.

[Ubiquitous]

What did Sosa do? Sosa does not have the career or single season strikeout record.

Dunn has the single season set in 2004 and Reggie has the career.

[AstrosFan]

Alexander's record was kinda era-dependant (lower-scoring era). But there are ones like Brooksie's assists, Ruth's runs in a season, Brooksie's DP, Ron Hunt's HBP in a season, Cobb's consecutive .300+ BA seasons, Ted Williams' consecutive games on base, and several more records that are LESS breakable :eek:

Technically, Hughie Jennings holds the record for HBP in a season. And Tony Gwynn made a good run at Cobb's consecutive .300+ BA seasons.

[soberdennis]

I'll start with perhaps the easiest :eek: of the ones I'm keeping track of, other than that the game has been going more towards offense. Hershiser's 59 straight shutout innings :eek: since Drysdale got within 98% of it in 1968
Hershiser broke Drysdales record.

[JohnGelnarFan]

You guys have,very Impressively,disected the major league record book. How about records on the other end of the spectrum?

Ray Oyler's .135 B.A. for players who appeared in over 100 games
Enzo Hernandez' 12 RBI's for players with over 500 AB's
John Coleman's 48 losses in 1883

[soberdennis]

Please explain.
Schaefer was a clown. He would get on base, steal second, and on the next pitch runback to first, thus "stealing" first. I think they changed the rules to make this illegal.

[JohnGelnarFan]

Definitely a different kind of game,Torez77. Hoss Radbourn actually won 60 games in 1884. 73 starts and 73 complete games! :eek:







You wanna see unbreakable records, look at the 19th century.

Duffy's .440
Radbourn's 59 wins
Hamilton's 192 runs
Spalding's 55-5
Nicols' 138 SB's
Kilroy's 513 K's
White's 75 CG's

Granted, a completely different kind of game.

[soberdennis]

Just thought I'd bring this thread up for you SoberDennis. ;)
Thank you. I could go back and find threads for things I want to start, but it might take a while. If I start another one that has already been started, feel free to do the same thing.

[ScrewBll45]

John Hiller's comeback

[RuthMayBond]

Hershiser broke Drysdales record.That's exactly what I said :confused:

[RuthMayBond]

You guys have,very Impressively,disected the major league record book. How about records on the other end of the spectrum?

Ray Oyler's .135 B.A. for players who appeared in over 100 games
Enzo Hernandez' 12 RBI's for players with over 500 AB's
John Coleman's 48 losses in 1883Larry Littleton or Terry Felton

[Appling]

What did Sosa do? Sosa does not have the career or single season strikeout record.

Dunn has the single season set in 2004 and Reggie has the career.
I think Sosa now leads all ACTIVE players in career strikeouts -- and/or he may "own" the NL record for career strikeouts (but still far behind the MLB record set by Reggie Jackson).

[Williamsburg2599]

I'm not sure you can call any record "unbreakable" because the game is constantly changing.Who knows what it'll look like in 20,50 or 100 years.The game could change back into something like it was in the 1910s for all we know.

[drjjpdc]

After reading this thread I did not see another unbreakable record. Rogers Hornsby's 1922 season. 154 games, 623 AB, 42 HR and a .401 BA. Even the Babe never did this. And they weren't all singles, he had plenty of doubles and triples to go along with the homers. This is truly an out of this world performance.

[Bill Burgess]

I think the following group is the hardest to break, going from the hardest at the top to the easiest at the bottom.


Ripken's 2632 consecutive games
Young' s 511 wins
Ryan's 5714 strikeouts
Rose's 4256 hits
Henderson's stolen bases; 1406 - career, 130 - season
I think 755 HR in a career may also one day fall.
Aaron's 2297 RBI
.366 Career BA.


Ryan's 7 no-hitters
hitting Triple Crown winner?
I think 73 HR in a season may be beat some day.
400 hitter?
30 game winner?
DiMaggio's 56 game hit streak

[ScrewBll45]

In terms of relief pitching, Elroy Face's 1959 season

18-1, .947 winning percentage.


Elroy was a true closer, none of that one inning nobody on crap.

[csh19792001]

I think the following group is the hardest to break, going from the hardest at the top to the easiest at the bottom.

Ripken's 2632 consecutive games
Young' s 511 wins
Ryan's 5714 strikeouts
Rose's 4256 hits
Henderson's stolen bases; 1406 - career, 130 - season
I think 755 HR in a career may also one day fall.
Aaron's 2297 RBI


Ryan's 7 no-hitters
hitting Triple Crown winner?
I think 73 HR in a season may be beat some day.
400 hitter?
30 game winner?
DiMaggio's 56 game hit streak


Bill, I can't believe you left .367 off this list! It's the most unbreakable career offensive record. Most of the pitching records are all unassailable because guys pitched twice as much in the 19th century than they did today

I can see .400 happening again, but then again, with the media.... the pressure would be disgusting. Same with 56 straight games, which I see as far less likely to ever happen again.

I agree 73 is withing reach- it may very well be bested this year. Albert is on pace for over ~80 homeruns. Also, if the conditions of the game stay roughly the same as they are currently, 755 should be broken multiple times in the next 30-50 years.

[Appling]

Rogers Hornsby's 1922 season. 154 games, 623 AB, 42 HR and a .401 BA.
Even the Babe never did this. And they weren't all singles, he had plenty of doubles and triples to go along with the homers. This is truly an out of this world performance.

Hornsby in 1922 had 40+ homeruns and a .400 Batting Average. Only player to do both in the same season. (But his 1922 BA and his NL record of 42 homeruns were both soon broken. He broke the NL BA record himself, just two years later.)

Mantle in 1956 had the only Triple Crown season with 50+ homeruns.

Both Hornsby and Mantle had memorable Triple Crown seasons.

BTW: I think Elroy's 18-1 pitching record could be broken. It will take an undefeated season on the mound (1.000 pct) to be "unbreakable".

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Bill, I can't believe you left .367 off this list! It's the most unbreakable career offensive record.

.690 says hello :waving :dance

[Bill Burgess]

Bill, I can't believe you left .367 off this list! It's the most unbreakable career offensive record. Most of the pitching records are all unassailable because guys pitched twice as much in the 19th century than they did today
Oops. You can't remember them all. I think the consecutive games played is the hardest to break. Only 2 men in history played over 2,000 games in a row. Career records are harder than season's records.

I think the easiest to break are DiMag's and .400 for a season. .400 has been approached by Carew, Brett, Gwynn. Easier to stay hot for a season than healthy for a career.

Bill

[Honus Wagner Rules]

lol, Helton slugged .693 in basically half of his games? We're talking about a career here HWR :laugh

There's nobody I would love to see approach it any more than Albert, but if he needs Coors Field to do it, I'll place a mental asterisk by it. Might as well hit a golf ball in that stadium. Lol, it's brutal. The ball carries like hell, and because of that, no pitchers in their right mind would ever choose to pitch their, unless they've already done enough elsewhere to warrant a large contract (cash grab). To go there and try to put up numbers to get a big contract though, lol, fuggeddaboudit. So you'll always have scrubs pitching in that rarified air. A double whammy !! I think .690 is up on the wall with 511, 56, 110, and .367.
My point is that a great hitter could potentially slug .800 at Coors for an entire career. That would mean they would need something like a .590 slugging percentage on the road to surpass Ruth's .690.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

My point is that a great hitter could potentially slug .800 at Coors for an entire career. That would mean they would need something like a .590 slugging percentage on the road to surpass Ruth's .690.

Geez, draggin' out all the old stuff huh ;) Yeah, I got what ya meant. Makes sense.

[csh19792001]

.690 says hello :waving :dance

I used to think so, too (.690 being totally untouchable), but then I saw the steroid version of Bonds slug .780 for a 6 year period (from ages 35-40, no less). In fact, if you take the final 10 years of Barry's career (1305 games, from 1996-2005), his overall slugging percentage is still .697!!

Until conditions find some semblance of balance- and until baseball extricates itself from this steroid morass- no slugging or homerun records will be safe.

[Appling]

I think the easiest to break are DiMag's and .400 for a season. .400 has been approached by Carew, Brett, Gwynn. Easier to stay hot for a season than healthy for a career.
Bill
But even hitting .400 would not be a RECORD. I would ignore the years before 1900, but still the modern era records of .426 (Lajoie 1901) and .424 (Hornsby 1924) are far above a simple .400. I don't think it will happen without a major change in the scoring rules. (Score a sacrifice if a runner scores on a ground out?)

The hitting streak record by DiMaggio probably will be broken -- unless a pitcher elects to give intentional walks rather than risk being listed in the record book as the pitcher who allowed a future hitter's streak to break 56.

[FatAngel]

Here's a few more:

Season Triple - 36 Chief Wilson


This is the sole record that will never fall. By statistical evaluation it is more likely for a person to make a jump to the moon.

[csh19792001]

This is the sole record that will never fall. By statistical evaluation it is more likely for a person to make a jump to the moon.

Agreed. The extreme park effects play a role here, too.

Wilson probably hit at least 25 of those triples at Forbes. In 1911 he hit 10 of his 12 at his home park.

[Brownie31]

Does this thread apply to team records as well as individual records?
If so, then the NY Giants' 26 game winning streak of 1916 and the
NY Yankees' five straight world series titles 1949-1953.

Brownie31

[Ubiquitous]

technically the Giants didn't have a 26 game winning streak.

[Bill Burgess]

Agreed. The extreme park effects play a role here, too.

Wilson probably hit at least 25 of those triples at Forbes. In 1911 he hit 10 of his 12 at his home park.
There is a secret to hitting triples. It requires a long right field foul line. If a LH hitter can hit long shots into the corner, and is a fast runner, that is what is needed to break that record.

Before the Pirates built the first modern park, Forbes Field, in 1909, they played on Exhibition Park, which had 400 foot foul lines. Perfect for slugging a slicing line shot down into the RF corner.

That's how to pile up triples, and why Pirates hitters got a lot of them. A short RF porch will kill the triple.

Bill

[Honus Wagner Rules]

technically the Giants didn't have a 26 game winning streak.
I believe according to the rules at that time it was considered a 26 game winning streak and MLB today still considers it the all-time record.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

According to Elias:



...Here to present it is Elias' Ken Hirdt.

"Tie games are properly ignored in winning or losing streaks in baseball," Hirdt said, "because unlike the NFL or the NHL, where tie games are valid outcomes of games and have impact in the standings, a tie is not a normal outcome of a baseball game -- in the sense that when one occurs in baseball, the game is replayed."


So just as Greg Maddux can be considered to have won seven games in a row at one point this year -- even though his streak included eight no-decisions and two games his team wound up losing -- the 1916 Giants can be considered to have won 26 in a row, even though it took them 27 games to win them.

"I think that people today are not familiar with the idea of a tie in baseball," Hirdt said. "It only happens under extreme conditions nowadays. Until the advent of night baseball, it was an easily accepted outcome, with the idea that the game does not count in the standings and would be made up later in the season. The tie game during the Giants' streak was made up the following day as part of a doubleheader.

[AstrosFan]

I don't think one could mathematically define how unbreakable a record is, although people will always try. But we can get some idea by looking into the factors that enabled the record, and whether the factors of today or the future could change to create an environment and type of player that could approach the record.

Take Cobb's .366. The second and third place finishers in BA aren't that far off, but they played as contemporaries of Cobb. Well, Hornsby's prime was Cobb's decline, but you get the idea. Ted Williams is the only player to hit .340+ who played after WWII. The highest batting average of players of recent years is Tony Gwynn's .338.
Cobb was a power hitter, but in the form of doubles and triples. There are high average hitters who hit home runs, but their home run totals came from swinging naturally, not swinging for the fences. I think the first criteria for a player to make a run at .366 is to just try and hit the ball into an area where fielders can't get it. Batters don't have a lot of control over where the ball goes, so maybe just hitting it would be better advice.
Cobb had speed. Those few leg hits each year could have an impact on a player's career batting average that might push him into the running for .366.
Cobb's decline came during the best era for batting averages in the 20th century. I think it would help for a player to get off to a great start, then suffer his decline in a high era for averages.
Cobb appears to have played in pitchers parks, but it wouldn't hurt for a player to play in hitters parks.
The trend of baseball players is unpredictable, right now baseball players are primarily home run hitters, contact hitters second. But that could change.
We are in an offensive era right now. If someone is going to go after the record, the time is pretty ripe.
The park trend is toward hitters parks.

Get a Tony Gwynn type hitter, add speed that doesn't drop off as drastically as Gwynn's did in his later years, put him in a hitters park, and increase league batting averages, and you've got a player who might not break Cobb's record, but he's got a good chance.

[Bill Burgess]

If one wanted to have a shot at a career .366 BA., put a Ichiro in the best hitter's park, one with the longest RF foul line in the MLs. This would be the right era to do it in.

And towards the decline in his career, let him DH.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Depends on what your definition of "hitter's park" is. For a guy to make a run at .366, his "hitter's park" would have to be a "pitcher's park." Today's parks aren't built for "that guy." They're built for a Pat Burrell type, or really anyone now days, even middle infielders who don't cut down their swing and go for the fences. Ichiro in Safeco is a good start, but the park would need to be even larger for him to have even an outside shot at .366 imo. More room for hits to drop in. HR wouldn't be a concern. .366 is as unbreakable as 511 imo.

[Ubiquitous]

I don't really see how a more spacious outfield would help Ichiro get more hits. It would turn some doubles into triples or inside the parkers but Ichiro isn't the type of hitter that uses the outfield a whole lot he is a groundball hitter and the infield can only be so big no matter how big the park is.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I don't really see how a more spacious outfield would help Ichiro get more hits.

Just more room for balls to fall in. For a hitter like that dude, who's basically holding a tennis raquet and placing shots at will, I think it'd be huge for him. You're right about the infield though. Not much can be done. If Ichiro played back when Cobb did; with the smaller gloves, uneven infields, deformed ball at times, it might be easier for him.

[Bill Burgess]

The reason I mentioned long foul lines and a deep OF perimeter, was to discourage a hitter from going for the long ball. Going for a career .366 must require a hitter to virtually ignore the long ball. Must make every at-bat a % play. Going long would create too many loud outs and kill such an effort.

Ballparks which featured deep OF perimiters, like the Polo Grounds, Exposition Park, Griffith Park, had such expansive OF territory, that it was simply hard for 3 OFers, no matter how swift, to adequately cover all that green space.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

To be considered park size had much to do with the high number of triples in the early years but so did the fact that it was the dead ball era. Outfielders played very shallow any ball getting by them could go for a triple or inside the park home run.

Speaker played so shallow that he often made throws to second base on base hits, force out at second base on the lead runner.

Also ground rules played a part when spectators were allowed to stand on the playing field in roped off sections.More on this later.

[Bill Burgess]

To be considered park size had much to do with the high number of triples in the early years but so did the fact that it was the dead ball era. Outfielders played very shallow any ball getting by them could go for a triple or inside the park home run.
All true. But more than sheer size was configuration. A ballpark with a short RF porch probably wouldn't allow too many triples. It was that LONG RF which let the base runners dash so far.

[csh19792001]

If one wanted to have a shot at a career .366 BA., put a Ichiro in the best hitter's park, one with the longest RF foul line in the MLs. This would be the right era to do it in.

And towards the decline in his career, let him DH.


.366 is as unbreakable as 511 imo.

Why I agree with Randy...

Ichiro is 32, right at the human physical peak and on the precipice of decline. He's averaged 680 AB's/year.

Please correct my arithmetic if it's off (it might be way off) :p :

Let's say for the next four years he hit .400 every single season (272 for 680). That would only bring his average up to .361 for his career!! Five straight years hitting .400 would bring him up to .365, and only 6 would bring his career up to .368 (and then he'd have to keep it there).

So assuming my math is correct....

Ichiro would need to hit .400 for six consecutive years just to get his career BA up to Ty Cobb's mark that he sustained over 24 years and nearly 12,700 PA.

Which begs the question....how many career AB's (or PA) does one need in order to be an official candidate for highest career BA, SLG, etc???

Is it 4,000? Lefty O'Doul isn't listed on MLB.com as one of the alltime leaders, even though he hit .349 over 3,200 AB's in nearly 1,000 games. The point here being, the shorter the career prerequisite, the more theoretically possible it becomes.

Batting Average Leaders. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/historical/player_stats.jsp?c_id=mlb&section1=2&statSet1=1&sortByStat=AVG&statType=1&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame=0&baseballScope=mlb&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&teamPosCode=all&HS=true)

Nobody in the top 100 has fewer than 5,000 career AB's...

Note: I'm probably one of the few people to take note this, but Ichiro has a 16 game hitting streak and has 25 hits in that stretch. I always said if anyone I've ever seen has the potential to put together a streak in the 40's (or higher), it would be him. I think Ichiro has the perfect blend of incredible speed and style to make a great candidate. Frequently getting 5 AB's/game helps a ton, too.

It would also be more difficult for Ichiro to sustain .400 because he bats 680 times per year...at least, significantly more difficult than it would be for someone who batted 500 times/year.

[csh19792001]

Speaker played so shallow that he often made throws to second base on base hits, force out at second base on the lead runner.


Speaker often played so shallow early on in his career that he'd make plays at second base himself. In fact, in his new biography it talks about the number of unassisted double plays he turned in his career. It's been several months and I don't remember the exact figures, but the author (Timothy Gay) went back and researched it, and it was truly astounding.

A testament to both Speaker's incredible skill and how much the game of baseball has mutated in the past 100 years.

[Ubiquitous]

Just more room for balls to fall in. For a hitter like that dude, who's basically holding a tennis raquet and placing shots at will, I think it'd be huge for him. You're right about the infield though. Not much can be done. If Ichiro played back when Cobb did; with the smaller gloves, uneven infields, deformed ball at times, it might be easier for him.


Again though all that green space would be space that Ichiro doesn't use anyway. It's not like the outfielders would be playing against the wall when Ichiro was up and all that green space was between the infielders and outfielders. All that greenspace would be behind the outfielders and if Ichiro hit it there then in a normal park it probably would have been a home run so it would have been a hit anyway. A bigger park would simply mean that some of his line drives would turn into doubles, triples, and homers instead just a single or a double.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Again though all that green space would be space that Ichiro doesn't use anyway. It's not like the outfielders would be playing against the wall when Ichiro was up and all that green space was between the infielders and outfielders. All that greenspace would be behind the outfielders and if Ichiro hit it there then in a normal park it probably would have been a home run so it would have been a hit anyway. A bigger park would simply mean that some of his line drives would turn into doubles, triples, and homers instead just a single or a double.

I hear ya Ubi. All the extra green behind the outfielders wouldn't scare them too much when Ichiro is up, as far as him driving balls OVER their heads. But what it would do, is make them worry about his speed, and make them more aware of how damaging it could be for the ball to get by them. This would cause them to play deeper to allow for better angles on the ball. Its like in a real game on a real field, when its the top of the 9th and you're up by one run. The outfield goes into a "keep the hitter off second" mode. You move back to hopefully take away the gaps and to give yourself better angles on balls to your side. This extra room would certainly help. How much is certainly a question.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

All true. But more than sheer size was configuration. A ballpark with a short RF porch probably wouldn't allow too many triples. It was that LONG RF which let the base runners dash so far.


I hear ya Bill, long foul line played into the triple number. I was referring to those hit between the outfielders and at times over their heads who played shallow during the dead ball era.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Joe, did you see the shot of Ruth arguing at the end of the historical photos thread? Could that have cost him his first 30 homer season in 1919?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

To be considered park size had much to do with the high number of triples in the early years but so did the fact that it was the dead ball era. Outfielders played very shallow any ball getting by them could go for a triple or inside the park home run.

Speaker played so shallow that he often made throws to second base on base hits, force out at second base on the lead runner.

Also ground rules played a part when spectators were allowed to stand on the playing field in roped off sections.More on this later.

In one game in 1925 a total of 9 triples were hit in one game. There were a number of spectators on the field in roped off sections behind the outfielders. Of the nine triples 8 were of the ground rule variety the one other got by an outfielder.

In that game any ball hit into the overflow fans on the field was a triple. Any ball that struck spectators and bounced back onto the the playing field was a double or in some cases "all you can get."

In that game the Pirates hit 8 triples and the Cards hit 1 triple. Obvious the game played at Forbes field, the home town crowd had much to do with that. When a Pirate hit one into the crowd the fans would step aside allowing the ball to disappear into the crowd, ground rule triple. When a Card batter hit one their way the ball was blocked off at times kicked back onto the playing field, only a double or all the hitter can get. Even that would not explain why he hit so many more in 1912 than any other season with the pirates.

What I don't understand about Wilson's triples is that he hit so many more in 1912 than any other season while a Pirate.
1909---12
1910---13
1911---12
1912---36
1913---14

The cork center ball came into play in 1911 but even at that he hit only 14 in 1913. He hits 37 total in 3 seasons 1909-10-11 and then hits 36 in one season. I took a quick look and don't believe there were and changes in dimensions at Forbes in those years.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Joe, did you see the shot of Ruth arguing at the end of the historical photos thread? Could that have cost him his first 30 homer season in 1919?

It appears it did cost him. I've never seen that pic of Ruth arguing the call but I did read about that incident some years ago.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

The cork center ball came into play in 1911 but even at that he hit only 14 in 1913.

NL

AB/3B

1911-----1912-----1913

60.27----60.25----64.03

A common theory is that by 1913 pitchers began to counteract the cork-center ball. More prevalent use of the emery ball and other trick pitches. In Wilson's case, and I belief in the entire league's case, there was a significant drop-off in all the numbers.

[Bill Burgess]

Joe, did you see the shot of Ruth arguing at the end of the historical photos thread? Could that have cost him his first 30 homer season in 1919?
I thought you said it happened in August of 1920?

[yankillaz]

(I didn't read all the messages, because of time limit)

I personally like separating records in two groups: Impossible and Difficult (Improbable). I do this diferentiation because due to the way the game is played there are records that can never be broken (511, 110, 36, etc...). Nevertheless, there are very difficult records, in both totals or timely feat, that can be broken, but are almost impossible.

The two most improbable, btw, are:

1. Fernando Tatis's 2 Grand Slams in a game (1999): This is pretty difficult. The lowest amount of runs that its team has to manufacture is 20, in order to break the record. By the way, you brake the record by hitting 3 Grand Slams in an inning.

2. Johnny Vander Meer's 2 consecutive No-hitters (1938): To break this, you must get three. Talk about difficult. Just tying it is very hard. Jose Jimenez, a teammate of Tatis back in 1999, no hit Arizona, against Randy Johnson.

[BoSox Rule]

A career .482 OBP.

[csh19792001]

A career .482 OBP.

Out of all the greatest records, that's one of my top few favorites.

Maybe even more incredible is Ted's .497 career OBP at Fenway.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

(I didn't read all the messages, because of time limit)

I personally like separating records in two groups: Impossible and Difficult (Improbable). I do this diferentiation because due to the way the game is played there are records that can never be broken (511, 110, 36, etc...). Nevertheless, there are very difficult records, in both totals or timely feat, that can be broken, but are almost impossible.

The two most improbable, btw, are:

1. Fernando Tatis's 2 Grand Slams in a game (1999): This is pretty difficult. The lowest amount of runs that its team has to manufacture is 20, in order to break the record. By the way, you brake the record by hitting 3 Grand Slams in an inning.

2. Johnny Vander Meer's 2 consecutive No-hitters (1938): To break this, you must get three. Talk about difficult. Just tying it is very hard. Jose Jimenez, a teammate of Tatis back in 1999, no hit Arizona, against Randy Johnson.
I don't consider these two rare feats to be "records" in the traditional sense. A large part of these two feats is simply coincidence. What if Tatis would have hit his second grand slam in the following inning? Would that have diminished it value to his team in that game? How many teams in major league history have batting around three trimes in an inning? To surpass Vander Meer's "record" one has to throw three no-hitters in a row. How many ptichers have thrown three no-hitters in their careers? There have been only five pitchers with three career no-hitters. These two feats are unique and unusual, however.

[RuthMayBond]

(I didn't read all the messages, because of time limit)

I personally like separating records in two groups: Impossible and Difficult (Improbable). I do this diferentiation because due to the way the game is played there are records that can never be broken (511, 110, 36, etc...). Nevertheless, there are very difficult records, in both totals or timely feat, that can be broken, but are almost impossible.

The two most improbable, btw, are:

1. Fernando Tatis's 2 Grand Slams in a game (1999): This is pretty difficult. The lowest amount of runs that its team has to manufacture is 20, in order to break the record. By the way, you brake the record by hitting 3 Grand Slams in an inning.

2. Johnny Vander Meer's 2 consecutive No-hitters (1938): To break this, you must get three. Talk about difficult. Just tying it is very hard. Jose Jimenez, a teammate of Tatis back in 1999, no hit Arizona, against Randy Johnson.Should there be a minimum quantity for records?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I thought you said it happened in August of 1920?

It did. My bad. Make that his first..uh...55 HR season? :o

[TheSandman]

I wouldn't be surprised if Aaron's 2297 RBI was eventually broken.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

NL

AB/3B

1911-----1912-----1913

60.27----60.25----64.03

A common theory is that by 1913 pitchers began to counteract the cork-center ball. More prevalent use of the emery ball and other trick pitches. In Wilson's case, and I belief in the entire league's case, there was a significant drop-off in all the numbers.

That probably did play into the lower number for the league but Wilson's AB/3B over those 3 seasons shows a much wider difference than the NL. If we look at the difference in the league AB/3B, the number of at bats was on average 4 more at bats per triple in 1913. In 1913 the league had 148 more at bats than in 1912 and only 39 more triples Not much of a spike when dealing with 41000+ at bats

Wilson's AB/3B was--1911-45.33----1912-16.19-----1913-41.42.
That middle year 1912 is hard to figure, much lower than the year before or the year after. I have to search deeper.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Wilson's AB/3B was--1911-45.33----1912-16.19-----1913-41.42.
That middle year 1912 is hard to figure, much lower than the year before or the year after. I have to search deeper.

That IS a big quirky there. Good luck digging. Might not be something you can put a finger on. Could have been a certain adjustment or approach he did differently for that one year, and then when the pitcher's did their thing in '13, it counteracted that and brought him back to his norm? Who knows. Let's hop in Gooooo's time machine and ask Wilson himself.

[Ubiquitous]

Chief Wilson wasn't a fast guy. in 1911 he hits 34 doubles 12 triples in 544 at bats.

In 1912 he hits 19 doubles and 36 triples in 583 at bats.

In 1911 he hit 1 double every 16 at bats and a triple every 45.3 at bats. In 1912 he hit a double every 30.7 at bats and a triple every every 16.2 at bats.

He was basically hitting the ball over the heads of the fielders and the ball was rolling to the wall. He was turning his doubles into triples by hitting them farther.



"Few of the smashes have struck in front of fielders. They have all been over the heads or between the fields, all juicy jams."

Wilson hit 10 of his 12 triples at home in 1911 and 24 of his 36 triples at home in 1912. The pittsburgh team would have led the league by far even without Chief and while they played in Forbes field they led the league in triples 30 of the 62 seasons. Also 1912 was a record year for triples that still stands today. I think probably it took hitters a year to realize that the ball could carry and it took more time for the fielders to realize they couldn't play so shallow.

[csh19792001]

Wilson hit 10 of his 12 triples at home in 1911 and 24 of his 36 triples at home in 1912. The pittsburgh team would have led the league by far even without Chief and while they played in Forbes field they led the league in triples 30 of the 62 seasons. Also 1912 was a record year for triples that still stands today. I think probably it took hitters a year to realize that the ball could carry and it took more time for the fielders to realize they couldn't play so shallow.

Very nice research (did you use Proquest?). Also a deft historical inference on your part- thanks for shedding light on a distinct, possibly unique historical precendent set that year. It never would have occured to me otherwise.

[Ubiquitous]

The inference is a guess based on no actual eyewitness documentation.

No didn't use proquest I have a couple of books about players and the internet.

[yankillaz]

I don't consider these two rare feats to be "records" in the traditional sense. A large part of these two feats is simply coincidence. What if Tatis would have hit his second grand slam in the following inning? Would that have diminished it value to his team in that game? How many teams in major league history have batting around three trimes in an inning? To surpass Vander Meer's "record" one has to throw three no-hitters in a row. How many ptichers have thrown three no-hitters in their careers? There have been only five pitchers with three career no-hitters. These two feats are unique and unusual, however.

Ok. So you want statistical records? Mike Marshall 106 games played in 1974. Joe D's is going to be broken by Ichiro, Earl Webb will go down by Lowell this season.

[TheSandman]

I highly doubt Ichiro will break Joe's hitting streak.

[Blackout]

Joe D's is going to be broken by Ichiro

Leave it to a Yankee hater to make such a rediculous statement :laugh

[yankillaz]

Leave it to a Yankee hater to make such a rediculous statement :laugh

Leave it to a Yankee fan to make such a RIDICULOUS comment. Are you not aware that we are in the midst (steroid not taken into account) of one of the most star stude crop of players of all-time. I'd pick these years over the 30's and the 60's, but that's topic to another conversation. There are two feats i'm almost sure i'm going to see:

1. Albert Pujols's Triple Crown
2. Ichiro Suzuki breaking Joe D's record.

As for Ichiro goes, i've never seen someone get a base hit with such ease. Not even Boggs or Gwynn back in the 80's/90's. A friend of mine and i were commenting on this, a couple of weeks ago. Ichiro was hitting a low .240, but my friend and i noted that he'll be at .300 within a month. The guy did it in two weeks!!! Plus, he's hitting .320 right now!!!

My sister, a Yankee lover btw, said that Ichiro is a robot sent by the japanese to get to the World Series and blow up by the fifth inning of the seventh game. Quite frankly, i'm starting to believe her.

The guy broke Sisler's record!!! And before any of you come up and tell me what a meaningless record this was...i don't see the difference between this record and Joe D's 56 game hitting streak. And as Sisler's record went down,so is Dimaggio's. Anyway, who's better to handle the pressure than a player that doesn't understand a word the fans will be saying???

[csh19792001]

Leave it to a Yankee fan to make such a RIDICULOUS comment. Are you not aware that we are in the midst (steroid not taken into account) of one of the most star stude crop of players of all-time. I'd pick these years over the 30's and the 60's, but that's topic to another conversation. There are two feats i'm almost sure i'm going to see:

1. Albert Pujols's Triple Crown


This is not unlikely at all. I would love to see it as well.



2. Ichiro Suzuki breaking Joe D's record.

As for Ichiro goes, i've never seen someone get a base hit with such ease. Not even Boggs or Gwynn back in the 80's/90's. A friend of mine and i were commenting on this, a couple of weeks ago. Ichiro was hitting a low .240, but my friend and i noted that he'll be at .300 within a month. The guy did it in two weeks!!! Plus, he's hitting .320 right now!!!

My sister, a Yankee lover btw, said that Ichiro is a robot sent by the japanese to get to the World Series and blow up by the fifth inning of the seventh game. Quite frankly, i'm starting to believe her.

The guy broke Sisler's record!!! And before any of you come up and tell me what a meaningless record this was...i don't see the difference between this record and Joe D's 56 game hitting streak. And as Sisler's record went down,so is Dimaggio's. Anyway, who's better to handle the pressure than a player that doesn't understand a word the fans will be saying???

It was indeed incredible. I don't think ANY baseball record that stood that long has EVER been broken (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

That said, the probability of Ichiro hitting in 57 straight is impossibly low...even though he's one of the few best candidates to come along in the past 65 years (since Williams did it in 41'). Still, I'll be pulling for him every step of the way, as I did for Rollins when he got to 38 recently.

Check out this article. You'll love it.

The Streak of Streaks
By Stephen Jay Gould (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/4337)

Excerpt:

"Among sabremetricians[1] — a contentious lot not known for agreement about anything—we find virtual consensus that DiMaggio's fifty-six–game hitting streak is the greatest accomplishment in the history of baseball, if not all modern sport."

My post citing Gould's book, Triumph and Tragedy in Mudville. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=478460&postcount=7)

[RuthMayBond]

Check out this article. You'll love it.

The Streak of Streaks
By Stephen Jay Gould (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/4337)

Excerpt:

"Among sabremetricians[1] — a contentious lot not known for agreement about anything—we find virtual consensus that DiMaggio's fifty-six–game hitting streak is the greatest accomplishment in the history of baseball, if not all modern sport."

My post citing Gould's book, Triumph and Tragedy in Mudville. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=478460&postcount=7)I suppose, but percentwise, I can think of at least thirty more post-1900 records that haven't been approached as closely :eek:

[Gee Walker]

I suppose, but percentwise, I can think of at least thirty more post-1900 records that haven't been approached as closely :eek:

Rose's 44-game streak puts him at 78.6% of DiMaggio's 56.

The only 20th century record that I can think of that would stand your test is Chief Wilson's 36 triples in 1912. Sam Crawford had a season of 26, or 72.2% of the record.

What are the other 29?

[DB67]

Birds killed :eek: with a pitch: 1 (by Randy Johnson)
(That record will probably never even be tied! THAT is the most extraordinary moment in baseball history, and will remain so for a long time!)

[Ubiquitous]

With a pitch? Yeah possibly but Dave Winfield killed a bird with a throw and so did Ryu with the Cubs in the minors.

[RuthMayBond]

Rose's 44-game streak puts him at 78.6% of DiMaggio's 56.

The only 20th century record that I can think of that would stand your test is Chief Wilson's 36 triples in 1912. Sam Crawford had a season of 26, or 72.2% of the record.

What are the other 29?Among them are ECollins sac hits, Gehrig's consecutive 100+ R & RBI (admittedly artificial), Henderson's leadoff HR, Bonds' intentional BB in a year AND career, Gehrig's 150+ RBI years, Henderson's career SB ...

[JohnGelnarFan]

Stadium Dimensions definitely have an Impact on a players chance at breaking or not breaking records. Braves Field,home of the Boston Braves,originally was so expansive In the outfield that not a single homerun was hit over the wall in it's first 9 Years of existance!(1915-1924)






Sam Crawford hit 51 inside-the-park home runs in his career for the all-time record in this "category". This is sort of a cheesy choice for a record I think will probably never be broken. But we no longer have open outfields with parking for horse drawn carriages. The modern trend in Stadium construction is to eliminate extremes like the 440 CF at Tiger Stadium, the 460 CF at Yankee Stadium, the 500 or so it was to CF in the Polo Grounds, etc. So with relatively uniform stadium dimensions and much less square footage of fair territory in outfields, records for ITP HR and triples are all probably very secure. Is there any record that is thought to be "unbreakable" that doesnt have a large "conditions of the era it was set in" dependency? the 56 game hitting streak of Joe DiMaggio comes to mind as a non era dependent record. I like Carl Hubbell's 24 game winning streak myself and Grover Cleveland Alexanders 16 shutouts in one season. I think those two will stand quite awhile yet.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Are you not aware that we are in the midst (steroid not taken into account) of one of the most star stude crop of players of all-time. I'd pick these years over the 30's and the 60's, but that's topic to another conversation.

These hitters certainly do look good out there.

[Buzzaldrin]

Among them are ECollins sac hits, Gehrig's consecutive 100+ R & RBI (admittedly artificial), Henderson's leadoff HR, Bonds' intentional BB in a year AND career, Gehrig's 150+ RBI years, Henderson's career SB ...

All of those are approachable in the conceivable future with the exception of Gehrig's seven 150+ seasons, and for that one has to take into account the rest of Geherig's teammates (heck, Bonds missed the consecutive runs RBI record by 5 runs in 91, a strike in 94, and a few missed games in 99, so that's not impossible)

How bout Alexander's shutouts for percentage? Gibson has come the closest since then, reaching 80 per cent of the record total. Dean Chance and Sandy Koufax are next at 69%, but the way the game is played now, no one has even completed enough games since 1987, let alone shut em down.