At and t park

[Elvis]

:laugh Geez, How many times sre you guys going to change you stadium's names up there:

Candlestick...3com....monster

Pac bell.....sbc....att

oakland...umax...networks ass...mcafee

10 names for 3 stadiums?!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Can't we just name the Giant's home either

[TBD] Park

or

[Sponsor Name Here] Park

:laugh

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Can't we just name the Giant's home either

[TBD] Park

or

[Sponser Name Here] Park

:laugh

Like I have said before: The ballpark to be named later :laugh

[Sultan_1895-1948]

-------------------

[west coast orange and black]

"a bad penny always shows up."

[bondsgirrrl]

:laugh Geez, How many times sre you guys going to change you stadium's names up there:

Candlestick...3com....monster

Pac bell.....sbc....att

oakland...umax...networks ass...mcafee

10 names for 3 stadiums?!Wow its not us that change it, its corp that do:laugh

[bondsgirrrl]

"Clear eyes" Stadium

Skippys creamy peanut butter Field so nothing productive for you here?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I had forgot I even posted that. It was a bad attempt at humor and the joke is tired. My apologies to all who found it un-amusing, especially WC. Currently I'm going through a 2 step program to see Bonds in a different light. The first step was admitting there is a problem, and this apology is step 2. ;) My opinion on his steroid use will never change, and I don't respect his PR stunts which change the subject, deflect blame, and insult the average fan's intelligence; but he deserves a fair shake like anyone else.

[west coast orange and black]

so, it's true- "a bad penny always shows up."

[Sultan_1895-1948]

so, it's true- "a bad penny always shows up."

I was being sincere WC. Having an opinion isn't a crime last I checked, and making an effort to give him a fair shake should be something you agree with.

[west coast orange and black]

you are right about opinions not being crimes, sultan.
however, the following is an easy-to-gather sampling of some of your words to me:

"[bonds] knows there are people like you out there, who refuse to use common sense in determining which way to lean. Thats sad."

"The fact is... there are people like you out there, who refuse to take in what it presented before you."

"you are most comfortable skating that this line between 'factual evidence' and 'logic'."

"You can spin it however you want and double talk til you're blue in the face."

"...[these retorts are] skewed and slanted. They are completely apolagetic [sic]"

"...I thought it was for the realists out there, cause I ask myself the same thing about his topic."

"...instead of proving that you have the ability to put 2 and 2 together."

"come out from the bunker west coast. Things feel much better in the light where reality reigns supreme. :D "

so, sincerely, excuse me for not embracing your sincerity so readily, sultan.

that last one there of yours ("come out from the bunker") came packaged with that big grin, so maybe it's simply that you enjoy coming over into giantsland and giving grief, not sure.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

that last one there of yours ("come out from the bunker") came packaged with that big grin, so maybe it's simply that you enjoy coming over into giantsland and giving grief, not sure.

Yeah, sorta. But I do realize that it's a subject you take seriously and even joking around is off limits. No playful banter allowed, and that's fine. You're passionate about defending Bonds. There are far worse things done by far worse people out there than that ;)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Yeah, sorta. But I do realize that it's a subject you take seriously and even joking around is off limits. No playful banter allowed, and that's fine. You're passionate about defending Bonds. There are far worse things done by far worse people out there than that ;)
Barry! Barry! Barry! Barry!

[Sultan_1895-1948]

[QUOTE=Honus Wagner Rules]

Hey, one things for sure. You've got the top slot for "greatest bowlegged players" locked down :D Straighten those sticks out and Hans would be kickin' in at a cool 6'1" :clapping

[west coast orange and black]

i believe that you have misread me a bit, sultan.
it is not so much that it is the treatment of bonds the person that bothers me. rather, the idea that you feel that it is ok to call someone names and accuse, then simply shrug it off saying "oh, well." if you went after another player in that manner i would defend him, as well, trust that. but you have not. it has all been reserved for bonds... in the giants forum.

also, you seem to have the idea that it is ok to state that i refuse to use common sense, do not live in reality, and can not put 2 and 2 together. these things and more have been directed to me. i feel that you continue to take advantage of my patience and my position as a mod.

what you call chaffing others distinguish as derisive. banter is something that could be said face to face with someone, and then both have a laugh with it.

you said that you don't care any more about bonds. while i do not expect that you could go cold turkey without him, you could prove that you are a man of your word by not posting about him in non-bonds threads.
is your update of #4 a start?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

i believe that you have misread me a bit, sultan.
it is not so much that it is the treatment of bonds the person that bothers me. rather, the idea that you feel that it is ok to call someone names and accuse, then simply shrug it off saying "oh, well." if you went after another player in that manner i would defend him, as well, trust that. but you have not. it has all been reserved for bonds... in the giants forum.

also, you seem to have the idea that it is ok to state that i refuse to use common sense, do not live in reality, and can not put 2 and 2 together. these things and more have been directed to me. i feel that you continue to take advantage of my patience and my position as a mod.

what you call chaffing others distinguish as derisive. banter is something that could be said face to face with someone, and then both have a laugh with it.

you said that you don't care any more about bonds. while i do not expect that you could go cold turkey without him, you could prove that you are a man of your word by not posting about him in non-bonds threads.
is your update of #4 a start?

Yes it is a start.

I will agree to that.

I have not purposely "taken advantage" of your position as mod, although I see how could you see it that way.

West Coast, I have stated that if it were Sosa about to break Hank's record, and the same circumstances surrounded him, that surround Bonds, he'd be getting as much if not more than Bonds gets. Probably much more from me at least.

We can have differing opinions. I can believe that there is enough circumstantial evidence to come to a conclusion, and you can choose to hold out for him to admit it. Let's face it, that will be the only "proof" that will ever show itself. Disagreeing is fine.

My playful banter (ie, giving eachother s***) was not reciprocated and it became clear that your passion won't allow you to let your guard down even for a second. Not a problem. I respect that. I find myself getting too defensive about Babe sometimes without even realizing it. It's just my passion of wanting to get the truth out there, coupled with my not realizing that others haven't spent the time I have on him.

So I think we have common ground here somewhere. While I believe he took basic forms of steroids, and then later advanced forms, along with HGH, there will never be proof. There will never be proof for Bonds along with several other (more than we think) stars, past and present. Unfortunately for him, he's approaching rarified air and the spotlight burns bright up there.

As for him as a person, he has never claimed to be a great role model, or pretended to be someone he is not. He's human, and part of that might be him not knowing how to deal with media. On top of that, the controlling aspect of his personality probably disallows him to receive/accept logical PR advice. Just my opinion.

Anyway, glad we could have a nice typing session without "banter." Although a good nudge in the ribs and a :D can be a healthy thing.

Later

[west coast orange and black]

"...it became clear that your passion won't allow you to let your guard down even for a second." >>> this one is loud...

"It's just my passion of wanting to get the truth out there, coupled with my not realizing that others haven't spent the time I have on him." >>> and this one speaks volumes...

"There will never be proof for Bonds along with several other (more than we think) stars, past and present." >>> ... and this one tells me that you don't know much about me, after all. but, not a problem. i respect that.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

>>> ... and this one tells me that you don't know much about me, after all. but, not a problem. i respect that.

So you agree that there will never be proof?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

So you agree that there will never be proof?
Hey Sultan,

Barry! Barry! Barry! Barry!

:D

[Sultan_1895-1948]

lol, you gotta let me in on why you've done that now for the second time? Why are you screaming Barry's name at me? Do you think it bothers me? Actually it doesn't. The name has a nice ring to it :D

[west coast orange and black]

your question refers to this sentence: "There will never be proof for Bonds along with several other (more than we think) stars, past and present."

so, although you included 1) proof about bonds; 2) proof about retired stars; 3) proof about current stars; 4) the notion that more players used than the number of players *we* think used, you still come back to bonds.

admit it -- you are helplessly infactuated with the man. that's why you keep coming back.

you probably have a barry bobblehead on your dresser.

[west coast orange and black]

at + t park sure is gettin' some attention here at giantsland. :D
money well spent.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

lol, you gotta let me in on why you've done that now for the second time? Why are you screaming Barry's name at me? Do you think it bothers me? Actually it doesn't. The name has a nice ring to it :D
I'm not doing it to "bother" you. I'm just bored. ;)

[Sultan_1895-1948]

your question refers to this sentence: "There will never be proof for Bonds along with several other (more than we think) stars, past and present."

so, although you included 1) proof about bonds; 2) proof about retired stars; 3) proof about current stars; 4) the notion that more players used than the number of players *we* think used, you still come back to bonds.

admit it -- you are helplessly infactuated with the man. that's why you keep coming back.

you probably have a barry bobblehead on your dresser.

:laugh

You mean a normal figurine? Yeah I have several of those, along with cardboard standups, posters, etc. Can't get enough of the dude ;) The Babe infatuation is just a cover up. Under all my framed Babe pictures, lies the truth, lol.

I was saying there will never be "proof." Proof as in, more than what we have now which is circumstantial evidence. Proof as in, something that will make even people with your view, see his guilt. In that sense, we can agree that there will never be "proof."

I meant "we" as in the baseball public. The general fan. I know, that you know, that there are tons of other players who have skated by freely without suspicion, and that isn't right. Bonds gets a bad rap because of his PR incidents, and because he's approaching the hugest record in all of sport.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I'm not doing it to "bother" you. I'm just bored. ;)

Gotcha :crazy :clapping :crazy :D

[west coast orange and black]

well, now i know that you are joshing.
when it comes to bonds, normal gets you to the back of the line.

also, i do not agree that the information at hand will be all that is ever known about the situation about players, and singularly bonds, using.

for you to fold up your tent right now, with what you have presented about bonds and banned substances, means that you have definitively sold yourself short... and that how you feel enters into your decision that bonds used.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

well, now i know that you are joshing.
when it comes to bonds, normal gets you to the back of the line.

also, i do not agree that the information at hand will be all that is ever known about the situation about players, and singularly bonds, using.

for you to fold up your tent right now, with what you have presented about bonds and banned substances, means that you have definitively sold yourself short... and that how you feel enters into your decision that bonds used.

There's no tent folding happening WC. There's a mountain of evidence, but it's all circumstantial. Murder cases can be made on circumstantial, but for this we need absolute proof. Which will never come, short of an admittal.

How I feel has little to do with whether I think he used or not.

[west coast orange and black]

only, some of your *evidence* has been debunked. and some of it has been dilluted. some of it you have back-tracked on. and some of what is left over is pure silliness.
the best thing that you have are bonds' numbers, the (inexplainable)unprecedented numbers.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

only, some of your *evidence* has been debunked. and some of it has been dilluted. some of it you have back-tracked on. and some of what is left over is pure silliness.
the best thing that you have are bonds' numbers, the (inexplainable)unprecedented numbers.

Oh boy, you really wanna dive right back into this?

There's literally a mountain (ok, a small pile) of circumstantial evidence. Not just his physical change and ungodly performance at an advanced age. The problem is, that every single piece of circumstantial evidence by itself doesn't mean as much as it does when taken all together. After enough, the pure "coincidence" line of thinking just doesn't hold up as well.

What do you think about who he surrounded himself with, and what they were involved in.

What do you think about what Sheffield had to say about his personality and how he asked for what Bonds was taking. What we know about his personality, would seem to fall in line with him wanting a piece of the action after he saw '98.

How do you feel about his mistress, whose comments were passed off because she had "something to gain."

Just goin off the top of my head here WC, there's plenty more. I haven't done the required reading to sit here and build up a huge case, cause honestly I don't care that much. I'd rather spend my time learning about someone I love, than spending time learning things just to prove someone's guilt. Not worth it.

Nobody can accuse Bonds of not being a disciplined, dedicated, hard working athlete; that's for sure. And he's not alone in the bad choices he made/might have made.

btw; what do you think about the investigation that someone wants baseball to do on Bonds? Can't remember exactly who, but they mentioned something this morning on Cold Pizza.

[west coast orange and black]

ask and you shall receive.

sultan: What do you think about who he surrounded himself with, and what they were involved in.
bonds had a business contract with balco. balco supplied thousands of athletes with legal substances, and there is nothing wrong with that. however, it also operated an illegal substance business and was punished for doing so.
i feel that bonds did not "surround" himself as much as do business with. and, according to the feds, there is no viable proof that bonds illegally.


What do you think about what Sheffield had to say about his personality and how he asked for what Bonds was taking.
what sheffield said is not far removed from what others have said about bonds, so it is not surprising to me at all.

sheffield stated that he was made to feel like a fool from time to time. so part of what sheffield once said about bonds may have resulted from that. now, though, he sings a slightly different tune when discussing bonds. sheffield now is not so rough on bonds.


What we know about his personality, would seem to fall in line with him wanting a piece of the action after he saw '98.
i take "wanting a piece of the action" to mean "the cheers of the crowd, the popularity, the prestige." am i wrong? if not, there are no guarantees in sports, only hard work that at times results in a fortunate outcome.

bonds has always done things his way. to believe that he suddenly changed his goals because mcgwire and sosa's summer of '98 tells me that to this day bonds is still misunderstood by most. it would not surprise me if bonds better focused on his goals, though. it was in 1993 that bonds declared "i am barry bonds... and you're not." he also answered the question of who he thought the best player in the game was with one word: "me."

cobbs and ruth answered the same question the same way. so did williams and mays. out of bonds' mouth, though, whoah, stop the presses. bonds' personality and how it is used as an integral component of what drives him and how he pushes himself is just that -- a tool.


How do you feel about his mistress, whose comments were passed off because she had "something to gain."
according to the supposedly leaked federal grand jury testimony, kimberly bell's assertions of drug use by bonds could not be substantiated by investigating feds.
i feel that someone who secretly tapes telephone conversations and telephone messages has an agenda. bell's agenda seems to have been money, by way of eventual extortion (using their affair against bonds) or by writing a tell-all. part of bell's story might be true, but she put herself in the untenable situation as a jilted lover.


what do you think about the investigation that someone wants baseball to do on Bonds?
in may 2005 mlb stated that they were monitoring the federal investigation, and that they were not conducting an investigation of their own. things may have changed, though. i do not know.

you mentioned that it may have been on cold pizza. cold pizza gets it wrong about bonds often enough that they are not too credible with me. generally speaking, the media have gotten things wrong before.

the new york daily news, for instance, erroneously reported last year that mlb had launched an investigation of bonds; that bonds would serve time for tax fraud; that "dr. albert ting" "treated" bonds' "left knee", even though mlb denied an investigation, and it was dr. arther ting who operated on bonds' right knee three times.

because bonds is a member of the players union he is subject to the rules. so if baseball wants to investigate bonds, i say that they are well within their rights. also, an investigation may clear some things up, once and for all, which is always a good thing.

[west coast orange and black]

sultan, you continue to refer to a pile of evidence, even though most of it has been washed out to sea.
what actually remains is the anecdotal numbers.

because i do not believe in coincidences, the expanation of the unexplained numbers is still outstanding.
because the reason is still out there, i continue to seek out information.

you, on the other hand, have said that outside a bonds confession or apositive drug test result, all that can be gathered has been gathered.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sultan, you continue to refer to a pile of evidence, even though most of it has been washed out to sea.
what actually remains is the anecdotal numbers.

because i do not believe in coincidences, the expanation of the unexplained numbers is still outstanding.
because the reason is still out there, i continue to seek out information.

you, on the other hand, have said that outside a bonds confession or apositive drug test result, all that can be gathered has been gathered.

Oh there's plenty more to be gathered, the question is, will it be and can it be.

My contention is that no amount of "circumstantial" evidence will do. People want "proof." What is this "proof" they seek? Is it a positive test? Well we know there's no testing for HGH, and we know that millions of dollars are invested in coming up with masking agents. The only other thing besides a positive test (which won't happen) is an admittal. You gonna hold your breath for Bonds to suddenly gain a moral compass?

You don't believe in coincidence WC, but you believe it's coincidence that he's involved with Balco?

We know what we know about the human body and how it ages. Even top athletes are subject to natural laws of diminishment. So his physical growth and ability to maintain that size at such an old age is coincidence? His bone structure change is coincidence? His numbers are coincidence? His personality fits with the suspected scenario surrounding '98. Is that coincidence? I thought you don't believe in coincidence. Ok, I'm tired of tying the word coincidence. Is that a coincidence? Ok, I'm stopping :D

Seriously West Coast. Nothing is washed out to sea, but like I said before, each individual piece of circumstantial evidence can be spun into discredit.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

West Coast,

Just a quick question for you to ponder and answer honestly. If it were Mays sitting at 755, and Hank had already been passed at 660, would you feel any different about Bonds' assault? Would your feelings be changed in any way?

[west coast orange and black]

thanx for the softball. without hesitation, no.
i have spoken at great length about different scenarios with friends.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

thanx for the softball. without hesitation, no.
i have spoken at great length about different scenarios with friends.

It wasn't meant as a mind-bender to render you perplexed WC, lol. Just wanted an honest answer. I believe ya.