What to expect this year from Coco Crisp...

[FlashGordon]

I hope we can put the issue of "hype" on ice long enough to discuss realistic projections for the coming season. Between those who have seen him in action before and those who rely more on the stats there should be some material for discussion. What do you all expect out of his bat, out of his glove, and out of his health?

I tend to think he'll bat lead-off or perhaps second and will end up stealing more bases than management will be looking for. I can only suppose that his arm will be stronger than the noodle that hangs from Damon's shoulder. Despite the topographical hazards, I think he'll play a solid CF in Fenway, the question is if he can play a fine CF-CLF. ;)

Thoughts?

[Boston Boxer]

I hope we can put the issue of "hype" on ice long enough to discuss realistic projections for the coming season. Between those who have seen him in action before and those who rely more on the stats there should be some material for discussion. What do you all expect out of his bat, out of his glove, and out of his health?

I tend to think he'll bat lead-off or perhaps second and will end up stealing more bases than management will be looking for. I can only suppose that his arm will be stronger than the noodle that hangs from Damon's shoulder. Despite the topographical hazards, I think he'll play a solid CF in Fenway, the question is if he can play a fine CF-CLF. ;)

Thoughts?

.400 BA
53 HRs
213 RBIs
80 Steals
:laugh

[DoubleX]

.400 BA
53 HRs
213 RBIs
80 Steals
:laugh

With expectations like that, it's no wonder you find me depressing. :)

[Boston Boxer]

With expectations like that, it's no wonder you find me depressing. :)

:laugh :laugh :laugh

[TheKingofKings]

Id personnally think he'd :

-bat around 295
-hit more than 150 hits
-hit more than 10 HRs
-steel 20 bases
and that he'd have more than 55 RBIs

[Mattingly]

My biggest concern is what will he do in the outfield? I'd like to see if he can patrol such a large area.

Also stressed is that he'll be essentially the outfield captain, as he's in CF. He'd have to deal with Manny and Nixon out there, so I'm very eager to see what happens.

I presume he'll do good, but it remains to be seen.

[SoxSon]

I hope we can put the issue of "hype" on ice long enough to discuss realistic projections for the coming season. Between those who have seen him in action before and those who rely more on the stats there should be some material for discussion. What do you all expect out of his bat, out of his glove, and out of his health?

I tend to think he'll bat lead-off or perhaps second and will end up stealing more bases than management will be looking for. I can only suppose that his arm will be stronger than the noodle that hangs from Damon's shoulder. Despite the topographical hazards, I think he'll play a solid CF in Fenway, the question is if he can play a fine CF-CLF. ;)

Thoughts?

I think Crisp will bat leadoff, as long as that doesn't go horrendously wrong.

I agree about the basestealing...I think Boston will have a hard time reigning him in on it, as I think Boston likes to do. Crisp isn't the smartest baserunner yet, but he'll still take more bags than management expects.

His arm is comparable to Damon's from what I hear, but he does have some youth on his side, so hopefully, it will be somewhat better.

I think Boston will be hellbent on teaching Crisp some patience at the plate, to increase his walk %, and I think he'll respond. For all the talk about how poor his OBP is, has anyone else checked out Crisp's OBP split home/away last season? In Cleveland, Crisp sported a lousy .319 OBP; on the road, he pumped that up to a .370. Hopefully, Fenway Park will stay under that "away" category. I also love that fact that Crisp, when he hits, will find himself at 2nd base more often than Damon did. Follow him up in the lineup with Loretta, Ramirez and Ortiz (with Crisp already in scoring position, and with hisspeed)...well, I like it.

I also think Crisp will do fine in center field. He clearly has the range, and I think his defensive numbers there so far are indicative of a raw, undeveloped player. I don't think he's going to set the world on fire with his defense, but I also can't be the only one who was starting to notice some rough edges on Damon out there.

In conclusion, I think we'll draw close to even on defense with Crisp instead of Damon, and I think we'll lose a bit on BA and overall savvy at the plate (patience and "2-strike" stamina), but gain a bit of power from the leadoff man. We'll also gain the upside of having a significantly younger player at a significantly lower price.

[SoxSon]

Also stressed is that he'll be essentially the outfield captain, as he's in CF. He'd have to deal with Manny and Nixon out there, so I'm very eager to see what happens.



Do you think he'll have to call off Manny on very many flyballs?!

:laugh :laugh :laugh

[CuriousBoston]

Team needs healthy people. Nixon healthy. Does Crisp have a history of bumping into walls and people like Damon? Completely unrelated: my Uncle likes him for the name alone.

[SoxSon]

Team needs healthy people. Nixon healthy. Does Crisp have a history of bumping into walls and people like Damon? Completely unrelated: my Uncle likes him for the name alone.


From what I understand, Crisp has a tendency to go all out to make a play. He's not a guy who's afraid to run into something.

[Mattingly]

Do you think he'll have to call off Manny on very many flyballs?!

:laugh :laugh :laugh
Ohhhhhhhh gawshkies. :D :p :crazy

Just when I'm thinking that I'm finally in the groove with Sawx Nation, I finally realize I've outthought myself.

In that case, he'd still need to play some LF after all. :D

[BoSox Rule]

.310/.370/.470 with 20 HR and above average defense in CF. About 7-7.5 wins.

[Mattingly]

From what I understand, Crisp has a tendency to go all out to make a play. He's not a guy who's afraid to run into something.
He can't possibly be as "all-out" as Eric Byrnes, could he? Nobody could be that intent upon getting to a ball.

[DoubleX]

I expect Crisp's power to go up a little this year, but his BA to go slightly down. I also think he'll steal 15-20 bases. Crisp has speed, but Boston is not much of a running team, and like Soxson said, Crisp doesn't have great instincts on the basepaths (and that might never develop, for instance, Bernie Williams in his younger days had terrific speed, was probably the fastest guy on team once he got going, he just had bad instincts, and thus he was never really a threat to steal more than 15 bases).

[Mattingly]

I know I've heard somewhere that some Boston coaches were supposed to be working with him? Is that an outfield coach and a batting coach? Any word of plans they'd had for him?

[Mattingly]

Here's his splits 2005, including by park:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6983&type=batting&year=2005

[DoubleX]

Here's his splits 2005, including by park:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6983&type=batting&year=2005

He hit very poorly at Fenway last year, but the sample is very small, only 10 ABs. In all, his road numbers were better than his home numbers, so perhaps leaving Cleveland will give his numbers a nice boost.

[SoxSon]

He hit very poorly at Fenway last year, but the sample is very small, only 10 ABs. In all, his road numbers were better than his home numbers, so perhaps leaving Cleveland will give his numbers a nice boost.


For all the talk about how poor his OBP is, has anyone else checked out Crisp's OBP split home/away last season? In Cleveland, Crisp sported a lousy .319 OBP; on the road, he pumped that up to a .370. Hopefully, Fenway Park will stay under that "away" category.

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...;)

[ElHalo]

What I don't get is why the Red Sox traded for him in the first place. Wasn't Kelly Schoppach a couple of years ago supposed to be the second coming of Carlton Fisk? Isn't Ande Marte supposed to be another Mike Schmidt? Why would you give up such once in a lifetime prospects for a run of the mill CF'er? Am I crazy, or wouldn't those two guys (not to mention Mota) be enough to land the Sox a CF like Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds? What am I missing?

[Mattingly]

He hit very poorly at Fenway last year, but the sample is very small, only 10 ABs. In all, his road numbers were better than his home numbers, so perhaps leaving Cleveland will give his numbers a nice boost.
<Invisible to Red Sox Nation>Unfortunately he hit very well at Yankee Stadium</Invisible to Red Sox Nation>. :o :(

[Mattingly]

What I don't get is why the Red Sox traded for him in the first place. Wasn't Kelly Schoppach a couple of years ago supposed to be the second coming of Carlton Fisk? Isn't Ande Marte supposed to be another Mike Schmidt? Why would you give up such once in a lifetime prospects for a run of the mill CF'er? Am I crazy, or wouldn't those two guys (not to mention Mota) be enough to land the Sox a CF like Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds? What am I missing?
Simple: you've gotta have someone play CF, and I can't think of anyone more highly-rated that could've played. Vernon Wells is staying, since Toronto is upgrading. Aaron Rowand was traded, so that takes him off the market. You know anyone that's both better and available whom you can name?

Neither Shoppach nor Marte have proven much in the bigs, and that's who they had to trade. If not, Cleveland might've looked elsewhere. I think it's called "overpaying with players".

As to Andruw or Edmonds, they obviously weren't available, anymore than Vlad nor Pujols were available in a Manny trade.

[BoSox Rule]

Wasn't Kelly Schoppach a couple of years ago supposed to be the second coming of Carlton Fisk?
He was projected to be solid, but come on, we both know nobody ever mentioned these two in the same breath.

[BoSox Rule]

Oh, and yeah, 10 AB's at Fenway Park is REAL significant.

[Mattingly]

From Lee Sinins here:

http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38981
SHOPPACH
YEAR AGE RCAA OBA SLG OPS OWP RC/G AVG HR RBI SB G TEAM
2005 25 -3 .063 .000 .063 .000 0.00 .000 0 0 0 9 Red Sox
CAR -3 .063 .000 .063 .000 0.00 .000 0 0 0 9
LG AVG 0 .331 .425 .756 .500 4.89 .268 1 3 0
POS AVG 0 .316 .394 .710 .429 4.16 .258 1 2 0

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7493

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/shoppke01.shtml

[DoubleX]

He was projected to be solid, but come on, we both know nobody ever mentioned these two in the same breath.

I don't know if he was ever compared to Fisk, but I do remember him being a very highly touted prospect and largely regarded as the best in baseball a few years back.

[DoubleX]

Oh, and yeah, 10 AB's at Fenway Park is REAL significant.

It isn't, but if you go back to 2002, Crisp is just 5 for 43 at Fenway (.116 BA), with only one extra base hit (a double back in 2002).

Of course, I still wouldn't put much stock, if any in that since those numbers had just as much to do with Boston's pitchers and the fact that he was a young and developing player, than any quirks that Fenway might have for him. So yeah, I don't think this small sample is at all a harbinger of things to come.

[Mattingly]

I don't know if he was ever compared to Fisk, but I do remember him being a very highly touted prospect and largely regarded as the best in baseball a few years back.
Seemed like the Yanks' farmhands were highly touted also. Nick Johnson was one. He's come into his own with the Nats.

Give it time, just like how Dioneer Navarro was also a highly-touted Yankee catch prospect. See what Shoppach and the others do in the bigs.

[BoSox Rule]

I don't know if he was ever compared to Fisk, but I do remember him being a very highly touted prospect and largely regarded as the best in baseball a few years back.
Kelly Shoppach was never, ever, ever, ever, regarded as the best prospect in baseball, or anywhere close to it.

[Boston Boxer]

My biggest concern is what will he do in the outfield? I'd like to see if he can patrol such a large area.

Also stressed is that he'll be essentially the outfield captain, as he's in CF. He'd have to deal with Manny and Nixon out there, so I'm very eager to see what happens.

I presume he'll do good, but it remains to be seen.

I think more is made of the CF in Fenway than it really is...RF has way more ground to cover.

[DoubleX]

Kelly Shoppach was never, ever, ever, ever, regarded as the best prospect in baseball, or anywhere close to it.

I meant best catching prospect.

[Mattingly]

I think more is made of the CF in Fenway than it really is...RF has way more ground to cover.
In that case, I'll discuss that, which seems slightly off-topic.

Prior to Damon, who'd played CF there? How much CF experience did they have before coming to the Red Sox?
I meant best catching prospect.
Who was higher rated? Kelly Shoppach or Dioneer Navarro?

[DoubleX]

Who was higher rated? Kelly Shoppach or Dioneer Navarro?

Shoppach. At the time, Navarro was still very young and raw and in the low minors, whereas Shoppach was further along.

[Boston Boxer]

In that case, I'll discuss that, which seems slightly off-topic.

Prior to Damon, who'd played CF there? How much CF experience did they have before coming to the Red Sox?

Who was higher rated? Kelly Shoppach or Dioneer Navarro?

Here are the CF from my memory.
Brady Anderson - Rookie
Fred Lynn - Rookie and future great
Ellis Burkes - Rookie
D Lewis
Lee Tinsley - more of a corner outfielder
Billy Hatcher - Good center fielder

[SoxSon]

What I don't get is why the Red Sox traded for him in the first place. Wasn't Kelly Schoppach a couple of years ago supposed to be the second coming of Carlton Fisk? Isn't Ande Marte supposed to be another Mike Schmidt? Why would you give up such once in a lifetime prospects for a run of the mill CF'er? Am I crazy, or wouldn't those two guys (not to mention Mota) be enough to land the Sox a CF like Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds? What am I missing?


In response to your post, EH, and a lot of other posts along the same lines, I thought I'd throw out an unspoken truth that I haven't seen posted anywhere on BBF (though I may have missed it).
Teams like Boston and New York can nearly always afford to trade away prospects, because those guys will come back. It's ugly, but true. If the guy turns out to be the next big thing, his payday will come from a team like Boston or New York. That's partly why we get what we can for him now, and check in on him later.
Not the prettiest way to manage a ballclub, but it's reality, nonetheless.

[BoSox Rule]

I meant best catching prospect.
He was never considered the best catching prospect either. The only thing he was projected as was a solid major league player who will walk, hit his share of HR's, be a very good defender at catcher. Here is a list of BA's best catching prospects back to 2002 and where they place in the top 100.

2005
1. Joe Mauer, Twins
32. Daric Barton, Athletics
44. Brian McCann, Braves
67. Jeff Mathis, Angels
79. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
81. Neil Walker, Pirates
89. Russell Martin, Dodgers

2004
1. Joe Mauer, Twins
22. Jeff Mathis, Angels
35. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
41. Dioner Navarro, Yankees
78. Kelly Shoppach, Red Sox

2003
4. Joe Mauer, Twins
16. Victor Martinez, Indians
48. Jeff Mathis, Angels
66. Justin Huber, Mets
67. John Buck, Astros
94. Jayson Werth, Blue Jays

2002
7. Joe Mauer, Twins
36. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays
41. J.R. House, Pirates
43. John Buck, Astros
70. Jayson Werth, Astros
97. Victor Martinez, Indians

And Baseball Prospectus (top 40 prospects list 2002-2004, top 50 in 2005)
2005
9. Daric Barton, Athletics
41. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
44. Brian McCann, Braves
48. Josh Willingham

2004
1. Joe Mauer, Twins
17. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
18. Jeff Mathis, Angels
30. Dioner Navarro, Yankees

2003
4. Victor Martinez, Indians
9. Joe Mauer, Twins

2002
25. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays

[DoubleX]

He was never considered the best catching prospect either. The only thing he was projected as was a solid major league player who will walk, hit his share of HR's, be a very good defender at catcher. Here is a list of BA's best catching prospects back to 2002 and where they place in the top 100.

2005
1. Joe Mauer, Twins
32. Daric Barton, Athletics
44. Brian McCann, Braves
67. Jeff Mathis, Angels
79. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
81. Neil Walker, Pirates
89. Russell Martin, Dodgers

2004
1. Joe Mauer, Twins
22. Jeff Mathis, Angels
35. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
41. Dioner Navarro, Yankees
78. Kelly Shoppach, Red Sox

2003
4. Joe Mauer, Twins
16. Victor Martinez, Indians
48. Jeff Mathis, Angels
66. Justin Huber, Mets
67. John Buck, Astros
94. Jayson Werth, Blue Jays

2002
7. Joe Mauer, Twins
36. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays
41. J.R. House, Pirates
43. John Buck, Astros
70. Jayson Werth, Astros
97. Victor Martinez, Indians

And Baseball Prospectus (top 40 prospects list 2002-2004, top 50 in 2005)
2005
9. Daric Barton, Athletics
41. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
44. Brian McCann, Braves
48. Josh Willingham

2004
1. Joe Mauer, Twins
17. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
18. Jeff Mathis, Angels
30. Dioner Navarro, Yankees

2003
4. Victor Martinez, Indians
9. Joe Mauer, Twins

2002
25. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays

I totally forgot about the existence of Mauer. I kept forgetting that is ML break was delayed. Anywho, guess I was wrong, I was always under the impression that Shoppach was a blue-chipper and more highly regarded as Navarro. Oh well. Thanks for the info.

[Evangelion]

Here are the CF from my memory.
Brady Anderson - Rookie
Fred Lynn - Rookie and future great
Ellis Burkes - Rookie
D Lewis
Lee Tinsley - more of a corner outfielder
Billy Hatcher - Good center fielder
We also had Damon Buford out in CF.

If the guy turns out to be the next big thing, his payday will come from a team like Boston or New York. That's partly why we get what we can for him now, and check in on him later.
That only applies to the Yankees. The Red Sox and a few other teams spend a lot of cash, but the Yankees are still about 80$ a year ahead of most teams in MLB, including the Red Sox. I believe the Rangers, Angels, Giants and other big name teams are also spending about 100 plus million dollars a year.

[SoxSon]

That only applies to the Yankees. The Red Sox and a few other teams spend a lot of cash, but the Yankees are still about 80$ a year ahead of most teams in MLB, including the Red Sox. I believe the Rangers, Angels, Giants and other big name teams are also spending about 100 plus million dollars a year.


The rest of baseball would disagree with your first line there, Evangelion. I do, too. I'm under no delusion about how Boston fits into the market.

The Rangers only spent about 56 million last season on payroll (they are not big spenders by any means); the Giants spent 90. The "Big 3" from last season are the Yankees, Boston and the Mets, with the Angels trailing just after. The Red Sox spent 123.5 million dollars last season on payroll. Yes, Boston was 85 million dollars lower than the Yanks (no small change), but we were also 22 million higher than the next team on the list. Boston and New York both stand out here, clearly.

[Evangelion]

Yankees' payroll is still 8 million more than the Red Sox. To consider them in the same league as the Yankees is ridiculous. The Yankees are still in a league of their own. The difference between the Yankees' payroll compared to the Red Sox's payroll is still large. Never said the Red Sox were not big spenders. Just said you can't put them in the league of Yankee spending when the difference between their payroll is 80 million a year.

Though, we're getting closer. I think the Red Sox are being subjected to 2006 Luxury Tax, which I believe only the New York have been subjected to up to this point.

I said think, because I wasn't sure. I didn't check out the exact numbers for the bigger spenders. At the end of 2005, our payroll was 116,640,070. Most likely it's higher. Can't locate an up to date payroll list of MLB. The Mets, Angels and Phillies were other big spending teams of last year that could have been group together with us. Nonetheless, only Mets come close to being close to our payroll and even then they were still about 9 million behide at the end of 2005.

Point being, Boston and both New York teams do stand out. Nonetheless, the Angels were not that far behide Mets' payroll last year. The Mets were further behide Boston, but then Boston was around 80 million behide Yankees. Big difference there. No, we're not 22 million dollars higher to my knowledge. We're should be at least 10 plus million above the Mets currently, but that's still nothing compared to being 8 times as much of that total behide the Yankees.

Boston is a big market spender, but New York is a league of their own by far.

[SoxSon]

Yankees' payroll is still 8 million more than the Red Sox. To consider them in the same league as the Yankees is ridiculous. The Yankees are still in a league of their own. The difference between the Yankees' payroll compared to the Red Sox's payroll is still large. Never said the Red Sox were not big spenders. Just said you can't put them in the league of Yankee spending when the difference between their payroll is 80 million a year.

Though, we're getting closer. I think the Red Sox are being subjected to 2006 Luxury Tax, which I believe only the New York have been subjected to up to this point.

I said think, because I wasn't sure. I didn't check out the exact numbers for the bigger spenders. At the end of 2005, our payroll was 116,640,070. Most likely it's higher. Can't locate an up to date payroll list of MLB. The Mets, Angels and Phillies were other big spending teams of last year that could have been group together with us. Nonetheless, only Mets come close to being close to our payroll and even then they were still about 9 million behide at the end of 2005.

Point being, Boston and both New York teams do stand out. Nonetheless, the Angels were not that far behide Mets' payroll last year. The Mets were further behide Boston, but then Boston was around 80 million behide Yankees. Big difference there. No, we're not 22 million dollars higher to my knowledge. We're should be at least 10 plus million above the Mets currently, but that's still nothing compared to being 8 times as much of that total behide the Yankees.

Boston is a big market spender, but New York is a league of their own by far.


Hmm...I'm not sure why our numbers don't match up. Some of the figures you're quoting seem off to me.
Listen, I'm not trying to correct you. I have zero interest in that. But there are too many players and too few positions for one team to take in every worthy player out there (going back to the original point about prospects). NY is spending much more than anyone else, but they have a limited roster, so 8 million or 80 million, we're clearly second on that food chain. I'm not sure where the disagreement is here.

[Utter Chaos]

Prior to Damon, who'd played CF there? Red Sox CF since 1996 with at least 20 games played in CF:

Name Year G
Johnny Damon 2005 147
Johnny Damon 2004 148
Johnny Damon 2003 144
Johnny Damon 2002 151
Carl Everett 2001 84
Trot Nixon 2001 70
Darren Lewis 2001 21
Carl Everett 2000 126
Darren Lewis 2000 41
Darren Lewis 1999 88
Damon Buford 1999 82
Darren Lewis 1998 109
Damon Buford 1998 67
Darren Bragg 1997 118
Shane Mack 1997 43
Jesus Tavarez 1997 29
Lee Tinsley 1996 79
Darren Bragg 1996 47
Milt Cuyler 1996 30
Alex Cole 1996 24
Dwayne Hosey 1996 20

[Boston Boxer]

that is great Chaos, thanks

As you can see, we have had only one really good CF since 96...the others were servicable at best. So, i am not worried about Coco playing CF

[Simayl]

I think he will make a good impression with the fans and have a solid season. I think he is a good trade.

[monty]

Coco should do well in Boston. Hes got a taylor made swing, like Damons, for Fenway. I think you'll see alot of triples. doubles, less singles and less homerums. However, more RBIs and a higher OPS.

[Mattingly]

Red Sox CF since 1996 with at least 20 games played in CF:

Name Year G
Johnny Damon 2005 147
Johnny Damon 2004 148
Johnny Damon 2003 144
Johnny Damon 2002 151
Carl Everett 2001 84
Trot Nixon 2001 70
Darren Lewis 2001 21
Carl Everett 2000 126
Darren Lewis 2000 41
Darren Lewis 1999 88
Damon Buford 1999 82
Darren Lewis 1998 109
Damon Buford 1998 67
Darren Bragg 1997 118
Shane Mack 1997 43
Jesus Tavarez 1997 29
Lee Tinsley 1996 79
Darren Bragg 1996 47
Milt Cuyler 1996 30
Alex Cole 1996 24
Dwayne Hosey 1996 20
Thanks. I was just too lazy to look that one up. :)