SF Giants Hall of Fame

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Hey, lets start a SF Giants HoF!!! My nominees

Willie Mays
Wilie McCovey
Juan Marishal
Gaylord Perry
Barry Bonds
Will Clark
Rob Nenn
Jeff Kent
Matt Williams
Jack Clark
Robby Thompson
Bobby Bonds

[RobertHConner]

If we're limiting to San Francisco-era (and I assume we are), I'd put in votes for:

Felipe Alou-OF/MGR (for combined Player/MGR service)
Barry Bonds-LF (obvious)
Bobby Bonds-RF/CF/Coach (obvious)
Orlando Cepeda-1B/3B/LF (obvious)
Will Clark-1B (obvious)
Carl Hubbell-Farm Director (50's, 60's & 70's)
Jeff Kent-2B/1B (obvious)
Peter Magowan-for being the leader of the group that kept the Jints from taking off for St. Pete
Juan Marichal-SP (obvious)
Will McCovey-1B/LF (obvious)
Robb Nen-CP (all-time saves leader, sacrificed career for SF)
Gaylord Perry-SP
Brian Sabean-GM (Giants averaged 90.3 W per season during his 9 year reign as GM, 8 of 9 winning seasons...the Giants had just 8 winning seasons from 1979 to 1996)
Matt Williams-3B/SS (obvious)

I can't support Baker for single-handedly giving away the 2002 World Series
I'm on the bubble on Robby Thompson & Rod Beck

Jason Schmidt can move into striking distance w/ another strong season or two.

[KCGHOST]

Matt Williams-3B/SS (obvious)


Obvious??? I would think Jim Ray Hart would be the choice at 3B.

[west coast orange and black]

i tossed in rod beck and dick dietz. so far, these are the nominees.
good idea, wags. but, how are we gonna vote? yer call.

Felipe Alou
Rod Beck
Barry Bonds
Bobby Bonds
Orlando Cepeda
Jack Clark
Will Clark
Dick Dietz
Jim Ray Hart
Carl Hubbell
Jeff Kent
Willie Mays
Wilie McCovey
Juan Marichal
Robb Nen
Gaylord Perry
Brian Sabean
Robby Thompson
Matt Williams

[johnny]

hey
where in the heck is johnny lemaster? :laugh :laugh :laugh

[KHenry14]

hey
where in the heck is johnny lemaster? :laugh :laugh :laugh

He's on the bench with David Green, Terry Whitfield and Ron Herbel.

KH14

[mojorisin71]

What do you guys think of Roger Craig? Is he ranked more favorably than Dusty Baker?

[johnny]

He's on the bench with David Green, Terry Whitfield and Ron Herbel.

KH14

Well save a little room for Candy Maldanado :laugh :laugh

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Well save a little room for Candy Maldanado :laugh :laugh
At least Candy was good in 1987! :p

And what ever happened to Max Venable?

[west coast orange and black]

i'm thinkin' that candido and max and johnnie and ruben rivera and marvin benard aren't gonna make the cut, so tell us about how we go about with the san francisco giants hall of fame, wags.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

i'm thinkin' that candido and max and johnnie and ruben rivera and marvin benard aren't gonna make the cut, so tell us about how we go about with the san francisco giants hall of fame, wags.

Ok, how this. The Giants are approaching 50 years in San Francisco. Let's vote for the top three at each position. Vote #1 and #2 and #3.

#1- 3 points
#2- 2 points
#3- 1 point

For a player to qualfy they must have played for the Giants at least five years.

[west coast orange and black]

wags: maybe a #1 selection can be separated by more than just 1 point:

1: 4 or 5 points
2: 2
3: 1

that way, getting a top-spot vote has greater value.
whaddaya think?

[RobertHConner]

Obvious??? I would think Jim Ray Hart would be the choice at 3B.

Matt Williams averaged 36 hr/106 rbi/86 r/.956 fldg. pct. per 162 games played w/ SF
4 All-Star appearances
3 Gold Gloves
3 Silver Slugger Awards
1990 Associated Press All-Star Team, 3B
1990 The Sporting News NL All-Star Team, 3B
1993 Associated Press All-Star Team, 3B
1993 The Sporting News NL All-Star Team, 3B
1994 Associated Press All-Star Team, 3B
1994 The Sporting News NL All-Star Team, 3B
1999 “Tell It (Candlestick Park) Goodbye All-Time Team”, 3B
1999 The Sporting News Team of the Decade, 1990’s, 3B
2000 selected Giants’ all-time 3B, The Sporting news staff
2001 The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract All-Time Rankings, 3B—#23
The Baseball Page’s Top Ranked Third Basemen of All-Time, #27

place in Giants history
most Opening Day starts, 3B, San Francisco era, 8
most HR by primary position, 3B, career, 247
most RBI by primary position, 3B, career, 732
most XBH by primary position, 3B, career, 451
most 100-RBI seasons, 3B, career, 2 (t-HOFer Fred Lindstrom & Bobby Thomson)
5th most HR, career, 247
6th best AB/HR ratio, career, 16.8
8th most IBB, career, 59
9th most SF, career, 39 (t-Darrell Evans)
least difference between team’s W total & individual’s HR total, 12 in 1994 (55 wins/43 HR)

MLB records
HRs in 2 consecutive games, 5 (t-Barry Bonds & many others)
1 of only 7 players w/ World Series HR in each league
1st player w/ World Series HR for 3 different teams, 1989 Giants/1997 Indians/2001 D’backs
RBI, 5-game NLCS, 9 in 1989 vs. Cubs
he holds quite a few mor postseason records, but these actually involve his Giants days

I wasn't picking by position initially, so it was not an either or situation.

[RobertHConner]

I'm very interested in the opinions on this subject. Can we decide on the rules of engagement and start the real thing on a separate, cleaner thread? I'll follow the rules that you guys seem to be headed towards. It's a cool idea.

[RobertHConner]

What do you guys think of Roger Craig? Is he ranked more favorably than Dusty Baker?

Dusty blew the '02 Series when his nerves led him to remove Ortiz in Game 6. I'm still not over that enough to give him my vote. He also shouldn't have let Lofton refuse to DH. He also shouldn't have started Salomom Torres on the final day of 1993. I also think he blew out Beck's arm & made a devastating pitching decision after Snow big blast in Game 2 of the 2000 NLDS (we were up 1game to zip at the time). That's not hindsight talking. I was screaming at the tv in every one of those situations as they were unfolding.

[cooldrive]

Can we draw the line before we get to Bob Speake and Don Tausig?

[yamsi12]

if i had my way barry bonds would be striken from anything MLB related.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Dusty blew the '02 Series when his nerves led him to remove Ortiz in Game 6. I'm still not over that enough to give him my vote. He also shouldn't have let Lofton refuse to DH. He also shouldn't have started Salomom Torres on the final day of 1993. I also think he blew out Beck's arm & made a devastating pitching decision after Snow big blast in Game 2 of the 2000 NLDS (we were up 1game to zip at the time). That's not hindsight talking. I was screaming at the tv in every one of those situations as they were unfolding.

One of Baker's worst decisions was to start a rookie, with limited experience, Torres, on that last day of 1993. The reasoning given was his typical...

"well me and Hank (enough already) used to hate having to face late season call-ups"

without considering what a pressure packed do or die game would mean to a rookie

Baker was good at some things, managing a game or series was not among them

another example, Giants are playing Braves late in 1993, and he brings in J Brantley, who the fans had lost faith in, his teammates had lost faith in, and even Brantley himself admits he lost his confidence.

Brantley gets hammered and the Giants lose a game they should have won

Baker's response...

" I was trying to build his confidence up"

great, you blew a game in a very tight pennant race against the team that is trying to catch you, and your reasoning is you are trying to build someone's confidence up, ummm maybe winning the game is more important!

example 3: the Giants are trailing the Mets 1-0 in a do or die playoff game (lose and they are eliminated) and he lets the pitcher bat with bases loaded.
He later explains "I thought we would at least score 1 run against their #4 pitcher and besides, I didn't have anyone warmed up"

huh? a child could see 1) this was a must win game 2) you should have pitch hit for the pitcher 3) have someone warm up, that is why you have a bullpen

I will leave alone the Game 6 pulling of Ortiz and letting L Hernandez and his baloon ERA talking Baker into letting him start game 7

Baker was good at some things, managing games and winning series was not one of them

I would not choose Baker to manage a pee-wee team

[Rich the Giants fan]

Considering his only two other options were journeymen Scott Sanderson and Jim Deshaies, it wasn't like Baker was full of great alternatives.

[Dravecky43]

if i had my way barry bonds would be striken from anything MLB related.

Well, I'm glad you don't have your way. That is, frankly, stupid.

[yamsi12]

Well, I'm glad you don't have your way. That is, frankly, stupid.

and that would also go for any steroid/HGH users.

[CandlestickBum]

and that would also go for any steroid/HGH users.


Write off most of baseball for decade or more then. Cuz even if your fave during the era didn't do any, he played with and against so many it changed his stats for better, or worse.


It's should be clear (nyuk, nyuk) by now that it was a baseball wide problem.

And nothing, nothing, can take away the awe I had during Bond's monster season. It was epic. And none of the other rhoiders ever came close to touching it did they? Was it enhanced? Yes. Was it Bond's playing at a leve not seen before? Also, Yes.


Anyway, Robby Thompson is a no in my book, even if limited to SF 2nd basemen.

Gotta give that one to Kent. I know he's hated by a lot of fans, but man, the dude put up some great numbers when he was here. HOF type numbers which Robby, sweet guy though he might be, never came close to.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

When will the myth that Torres "lost" the final game of the 1993 season for Giants ever die? Obviously, Torres didn't have a good game. However, when he was removed from the game the score was only 3-0 at the end of the 4th inning. The Giants scored in the top of the 5th inning to close the gap, 3-1. Going into the bottom of the 5th inning the game was still close. At this point of the game would anyone have blamed Torres for the Giants losing? Of course not. Then the Giants bullpen imploded. Dave Burba gave up 4 runs in 1 2/3 innings and Dave Raghetti allowed 4 runs in 1/3 of an inning! So why does Torres get blamed for this loss as if the the pressure just got to him? Also, Torres was probably the choice to start this game. Burkett and Swift had pitched just two and three day prior. The Giants were so desparate that the day before they started Bryan Hickerson and he lasted just two innings. Remember, Torres was one of the brightest pitching prospects at the time. He came to the Giants with substantial fanfare and hype. So Dusty either could have started some scub reliever or a young guy with nasty stuff? I'm sure it was not an easy choice for Baker to make.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

When will the myth that Torres "lost" the final game of the 1993 season for Giants ever die?

Huh?

Torres pitched 3 and 1/3 innings

In that span he gave up FIVE walks and FIVE HITS

projected to 9 innings that would be 13.63 walks AND 13.63 hits or over 27 baserunners in a 9 inning game (projected)

sounds like the rookie with great stuff was not up to the pressure

that he "only" gave up 3 runs in 3 and 1/3 innings (8.10) ERA is almost remarkable, it appears that a reliever got up a line drive double play to bail out Torrez in the 4th or a few feet either way and Torres is on his way to giving up 5 runs

Do you actually think Righetti giving up four runs late in the game while trailing 7-1 was more important than Torrez surrounding 10 baserunners in 3 and 1/3 innings with the game on the line?

Do you?

I think Baker's reasoning "me and Hank used to hate facing late season call-ups" was ill conceived

the rookie was obviously not up to it

and as for the other pitchers imploding, in a tight close game, there is more pressure on a batter, when a team gets a 3 run, 4 run 5 run lead, the batters loosen up, take bigger swings, and voila it us suddenly 12-1

Baker can not be given a pass on this because of his other bad choices (previously posted)

managang a game or winning a series is a weakness of Baker

period

[Honus Wagner Rules]

When will the myth that Torres "lost" the final game of the 1993 season for Giants ever die?

Huh?

Torres pitched 3 and 1/3 innings
Like I said Torres didn't have a good game but he wasn't the main reason the giants lost this game.


In that span he gave up FIVE walks and FIVE HITS
And what was the score when he left the game? Where the Giants down by 8 runs at that point? The score was 3-0 when he left the game. And the Giants scored in the top of the 5th to make it 3-1. Going into the bottom of the 5th inning the Giants were very much in the game.


projected to 9 innings that would be 13.63 walks AND 13.63 hits or over 27 baserunners in a 9 inning game (projected)
That's not how it works. Let's look at the 3 1/3 innings Salomon pitched.

1st inning: Torres faced four batters. Torres walked the first batter then got three outs.

2nd inning: Faced four batters. Strikeout, flyball, infield single, ground out.

3rd inning: This is where Torre's troubles begin. He was this close to getting out of the inning. The first three batters he faced were single, bunt ground out, and ground. But the Dodgers got some hit and scored twice. Still being down 2-0 not insurmountable.

4th inning: Torres got just one out and allowed an RBI before he was pulled.

sounds like the rookie with great stuff was not up to the pressure
If not Torres then who should have started this game?


that he "only" gave up 3 runs in 3 and 1/3 innings (8.10) ERA is almost remarkable, it appears that a reliever got up a line drive double play to bail out Torrez in the 4th or a few feet either way and Torres is on his way to giving up 5 runs
But he didn't.


Do you actually think Righetti giving up four runs late in the game while trailing 7-1 was more important than Torrez surrounding 10 baserunners in 3 and 1/3 innings with the game on the line?

Do you?
Nice try. Hello Dave Burba? What was the score when Torres left the game? What was the score going into the bottom of the 5th inning? The game was already lost by the time Rags got into the game. Do you actually think that Torres leaving the game down 3-0 was more important than Dave Burba giving up four runs and basically putting the game out of reach for the Giants?




I think Baker's reasoning "me and Hank used to hate facing late season call-ups" was ill conceived

the rookie was obviously not up to it
Again who should have started instead of Torres?


and as for the other pitchers imploding, in a tight close game, there is more pressure on a batter, when a team gets a 3 run, 4 run 5 run lead, the batters loosen up, take bigger swings, and voila it us suddenly 12-1
Well I think the Giants hitters would have preferred the pressure of being down 3-1 as opposed to the lack of pressure being down 12-1.


Baker can not be given a pass on this because of his other bad choices (previously posted)

managang a game or winning a series is a weakness of Baker

period
There's plenty of blame to go around yet Torres takes the brunt of the blame, less for Baker, and none for Burba.

If Torres wouldn't have started who should the Giants have started instead? When I ask Giants' fans this question I never get an answer.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

If Torres wouldn't have started who should the Giants have started instead? When I ask Giants' fans this question I never get an answer

anybody besides a 21 year old rookie with 39 innings of ML experience in the biggest game of the year with all the marbles on the line

[9RoyHobbsRF]

the most important runs that the Giants gave up were the three that Torrez allowed

the runs Burba abd Righetti gave up were basically window dressing and meaningless and although good for argument sake, are not germain to the game

if they both struck out all their batters on 3 pitches the Giants still lose

[9RoyHobbsRF]

in the context of the thread, the issue is whether D Baker was a possible candidate for the Giants HofF team

the 1993 S Torres issue is but a minor blip

the poor game and series management by Baker throughout his managerial career is the bigger issue

I would not have D Baker manage my pee wee team

[Honus Wagner Rules]

anybody besides a 21 year old rookie with 39 innings of ML experience in the biggest game of the year with all the marbles on the line[/B]

Who? Can you give us a name? It can't be that hard can it? Let me help you. John Burkett and Billy Swift could not have pitched this game. They had pitched Thursday's and Friday's game.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Who? Can you give us a name? It can't be that hard can it? Let me help you. John Burkett and Billy Swift could not have pitched this game. They had pitched Thursday's and Friday's game.

I was not aware the Giants only had three pitchers

sorry

now back to the thread

Baker as a H of F manager for Giants

no

[9RoyHobbsRF]

FYI

Torres was 14th on the Giants in IP and 15th in appearances in 1993

But to some, it was Swift and Burkett and then a bucketfull of Torres

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I was not aware the Giants only had three pitchers

sorry

now back to the thread

Baker as a H of F manager for Giants

no

So you have no answer. Gotcha. Thanks for playing anyway. :thumbsup:

[9RoyHobbsRF]

the lame "Me and Hank used to hate facing late season call ups" as a reason to start Torres was just that

L A M E

[9RoyHobbsRF]

FYI

Torres was 14th on the Giants in IP and 15th in appearances in 1993

But to some, it was Swift and Burkett and then a bucketfull of Torres

there is your answer genius

[Honus Wagner Rules]

the lame "Me and Hank used to hate facing late season call ups" as a reason to start Torres was just that

L A M E

We've already know you have no answer. So let's get back the thread shall we?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

there is your answer genius

Which is really no answer. Thanks for playing anyway. Bob, do we have any parting gifts for our contestant?

[9RoyHobbsRF]

now back to the thread



and two can play your courtroom drama game:

answer this: do you think it was smart to bring a non-confident J Brantley into a late summer game and blow it vs. the Braves?

answer this: would you have pinch hit for the pitcher with the bases loaded and trailing the mets in a must win Game 4 playoff game?

answer this: did Torres pitch well enough to win (10 walks/hits and 3 ER in 3 and 1/3 IP) or de he as predicted wilt under pressure

answer this: would you have Baker manage your all time team

answer these or forever hold your peace

[9RoyHobbsRF]

nice try rookie

14th in IP

15th in appearnaces

you lost this one big time

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Bottom of the 7th, Braves Batting, Behind 2-3, Giants' Jeff Brantley facing 8-9-1
Jeff Brantley replaces John Patterson (PH) pitching and batting 9th
b7 0 --- O 4,(1-2) .FBCX -5% 31% 2-3 ATL M. Lemke J. Brantley Flyball: CF (Deep LF-CF)
Tony Tarasco pinch hits for Mark Wohlers (P) batting 9th
b7 1 --- 2,(0-1) .CX 9% 40% 2-3 ATL T. Tarasco J. Brantley Double to CF (Line Drive)
b7 1 -2- R 2,(0-1) CX 19% 59% 2-3 ATL O. Nixon J. Brantley Single to RF (Ground Ball thru 2B-1B); Tarasco Scores
b7 1 1-- 5,(3-1) C1BP111B1B 6% 64% 3-3 ATL J. Blauser J. Brantley Walk; Nixon to 2B

______________

another great choice by By Baker

Brantley comes in in a key game and chokes it away

baker's response: " I was trying to give him some confidence"

[Honus Wagner Rules]

nice try rookie

14th in IP

15th in appearnaces

you lost this one big time

Only in your mind. You do realize that Torres was called up on August 29th? Or maybe you didn't based on your posts.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

the most important runs that the Giants gave up were the three that Torrez allowed

the runs Burba abd Righetti gave up were basically window dressing and meaningless and although good for argument sake, are not germain to the game

We must have been watching a different game. Going into the bottom of the 5th inning the Giants were only down 3-1. Let me say this AGAIN. The Giants were down only 3-1. Two days before the Giants overcame a 4-0 deficit to beat the Dodgers. I'm sure the Giants were still feeling confident that they could win the game going into the bottom of the firth inning being down just 3-1. Then the bullpen fall apart.


if they both struck out all their batters on 3 pitches the Giants still lose
You don't know that. That's just speculation on your part.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Only in your mind. You do realize that Torres was called up on August 29th? Or maybe you didn't based on your posts.

so that makes my argument even stronger

a 21 year old rookie with less than a month ML experience

the best you can say is well he was as bad a choice as anyone else

and I will caution you one time on saying things like "you probably dont realize"

"bases on your posts"

and "you probably are not aware"

and "answer this or stop playing"

condescending and I will proffer I know MUCH more about baseball and SF Giants baseball than you

but you have a holier than thou attitude and I find it very distasteful

you are not god's gift to this thread or site

[9RoyHobbsRF]

When will the myth that Torres "lost" the final game of the 1993 season for Giants ever die

you jumped in trying to show how smart you were ridiculing the two posts (including mine) that said Baker should not have started Torres

you tried to show how smart you were and listed the game ining by inning (almost)

since you are so good at this

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS:

1)who started the game a s a 21 year old rookie with less than 5 weeks ML experience?
2) who was 14th on the Giants in IP in 1993?
3) who was 15th on the Giants in appearances in 1993?
4) who was started because the manager said "me and Hank hated having to face late season call-ups"?
5) who go the official LOSS in the game?

thank you

[Honus Wagner Rules]

so that makes my argument even stronger

a 21 year old rookie with less than a month ML experience

the best you can say is well he was as bad a choice as anyone else

and I will caution you one time on saying things like "you probably dont realize"

"bases on your posts"

and "you probably are not aware"

and "answer this or stop playing"

condescending and I will proffer I know MUCH more about baseball and SF Giants baseball than you

but you have a holier than thou attitude and I find it very distasteful

you are not god's gift to this thread or site

Seriously, how old are you? I asked a simple question about the other possible choices Dusty had to choose and YOU take on an attitude about it.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Only in your mind. You do realize that Torres was called up on August 29th? Or maybe you didn't based on your posts

attitude 101 hypocrite

[9RoyHobbsRF]

That's not how it works

attitude 101 hypocrite

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Nice Try...

When I ask Giants' fans this question I never get an answer.

attitude 101 hypocrite

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Who? Can you give us a name? It can't be that hard can it? Let me help you.

attitude 101 hypocrite

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Which is really no answer. Thanks for playing anyway. Bob, do we have any parting gifts for our contestant?

attitude 101 hypocrite

[9RoyHobbsRF]

and you say I brought the attitude??????????????????

[Honus Wagner Rules]

and you say I brought the attitude??????????????????

Oh let's see, six posts in a row. It seems the answer is obvious. Let's just stop wasting each others time and simply ignore each other.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Oh let's see, six posts in a row. It seems the answer is obvious. Let's just stop wasting each others time and simply ignore each other.

I guess I would give up and say the same when confronted with proof of post after post of condescending holier than than attitude when your accusation of attiitude backfired on you

thank you

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I guess I would give up and say the same when confronted with proof of post after post of condescending holier than than attitude when your accusation of attiitude backfired on you

thank you

Not really. You're just not worth my time posting anymore. I asked a simple question, you took an attitude, and I have very little patience for people with attitudes. Thank You...

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Not really. You're just not worth my time posting anymore. I asked a simple question, you took an attitude, and I have very little patience for people with attitudes. Thank You...

look in the mirror

[CandlestickBum]

look in the mirror

You first Roy. You first. Just looking at the number of posts you've made on the last 2-3 pages lets us know who the problem person is.

And btw, look down at the bottom right of your page, you should see a button with the letters "e-d-i-t" (in that order) on it.

Try and use it some time, eh?