Coco Crisp

[Tinyballer]

hey since right now boston is scrambling to make a deal with the indians for crisp after the mota incident do you think we should make a run at him because if we do we can use bernie williams as a back up for the outfield spots then we can use Shefield at DH and him and Matsui can split DH and fielding then crisp can be a moving left right fielder. plus if we get him we could basically keep him from the red sox making the bridge even bigger.

[monkey333]

How about no? I'd like to have Crisp but that would mean giving up a big time prospect like Andy Marte. So the Yanks would have to part a top minor leaguer/leaguers for him, and that's something I personally say no way to.

[Tinyballer]

but we have a legitamate shot at being a contendor this year so we should go all out???

[DoubleX]

but we have a legitamate shot at being a contendor this year so we should go all out???

umm, you do know that we're talking about the Yankees, right? They've had a legitimate shot at being a contender every season since 1993. I don't think you have to worry about the Yankeees making moves to be a contender. It's pretty much just assumed at this point that they'll spend to get whatever they feel they need.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

hey since right now boston is scrambling to make a deal with the indians for crisp after the mota incident do you think we should make a run at him because if we do we can use bernie williams as a back up for the outfield spots then we can use Shefield at DH and him and Matsui can split DH and fielding then crisp can be a moving left right fielder. plus if we get him we could basically keep him from the red sox making the bridge even bigger.

First of all, use some points in your scentences. Reading would be much more easy.

Just go after him because Boston is after him? No!

The Yanks should have done this before they went after Damon.

[BoofBonser26]

Keep your paws off Crisp! He's ours. :mad:

at least for now...:(

[DoubleX]

Keep your paws off Crisp! He's ours. :mad:

at least for now...:(

I personally hope he stays yours. I really don't understand why mess with a formula that got the team on the cusp of the postseason last year? This is a young team that should only improve, so why not keep it intact and see if you get over that hump this year?

[moebarguy]

I think that it would be hilarious if the Yanks ended up getting Crisp!

[Tinyballer]

by acquiring him i mean that indians completely reject the red sox and go lookin for a place to dump him or somethin not likely but maybe and we happen to be a place plus if we get him we get another speedster on the basepads meaning we could reli scare a pitcher. plus he also a good contact hitter

[moebarguy]

by acquiring him i mean that indians completely reject the red sox and go lookin for a place to dump him or somethin not likely but maybe and we happen to be a place plus if we get him we get another speedster on the basepads meaning we could reli scare a pitcher. plus he also a good contact hitter

Baxter, you know I don't speak spanish! Again -- in english please.

[DoubleX]

by acquiring him i mean that indians completely reject the red sox and go lookin for a place to dump him or somethin not likely but maybe and we happen to be a place plus if we get him we get another speedster on the basepads meaning we could reli scare a pitcher. plus he also a good contact hitter

Tinyballer,

I understand what you are saying, but it would make things a little friendlier on the eye and help the conversation if you could put some punctuation marks in your reponses. Thanks. :)

[Mattingly]

The only thing I was pondering about Cavelli "Coco" Crisp (*GOTTA* love that name) is, had the Yanks made a run for him prior to acquiring Damon, who would we have had to trade?

About all teams, from what I've heard, routinely begin the discussions by asking for Wang or Cano. Who in the Yankee farm system would've been requested? Since at the time, the Yanks also were w/o a CFer (unless you count the relatively weak-hitting Bubba Crosby), we too could have been seen as in dire straits.

Other guys that Cleveland might have asked for would be Chacon, Small and likely Crosby. Any other names to add to that list, folks?

As it stands today, with Damon already inked, we've got Bernie backup up in CF (and hopefully LF, which he should've learned to play around 2004), and Bubba backing up in CF/RF. At least our OF bench is covered, so that's a good thing.

Damon has proven he can handle the heat of the AL East, and I'll hope that his skills don't erode.

[pacewon]

We don't have what it takes to acquire Crisp. Marte is one of the best prospects in baseball. Personally, I hope the deal goes through, and the Sox rid themselves of Marte.

[Tinyballer]

Umm using Bubba Crosby and Aaron Small go get Coco Crips. That'd be great if they accepted it but i really doubt it. Who knows anything happens in yankee land. Aka A-rod and randy johnson. So hard to type english. Plus if Andy Marte is as good as you guyz think then how come red sox got him only for edgar rentaria.

[Mattingly]

Umm using Bubba Crosby and Aaron Small go get Coco Crips. That'd be great if they accepted it but i really doubt it. Who knows anything happens in yankee land. Aka A-rod and randy johnson. So hard to type english. Plus if Andy Marte is as good as you guyz think then how come red sox got him only for edgar rentaria.
In the case of Bubba Crosby and Aaron Small, those players might offset the need for sending #5 picher Chien-Ming Wang and/or Robinson Cano. To me, both of those individuals would've been more than enough to land Coco Crisp, but the Yanks didn't want to go there.

If sending farmhands Colter Bean, Jason Anderson, Sean Henn, that would be the price to pay, but then again, the Yanks don't wish to do that either.

As to how the Red Sox got him, when you send an overpriced player to a team and pay a large percentage of their salary, then their sending a blue chip prospect is considered the least they could do.

For Alex Rodriguez and Randy Johnson, those are the Boss' toys. He likes toy just like we enjoy winning. Kinda go hand-in-hand, I'd say.

As to typing properly, I'd say to just worry about using proper grammar, periods and a space between sentences.

[SwissRedSoxFan]

It seems that the Red Sox are lucky and get Crisp without getting rid of Marte, Shoppach etc.

Clement to the Reds Kearns to the Indians and Crisp to the beloved Red Sox. He will get 350'000$ next year...and he's bound till 2009.

What a sweeeet deal...

And you have in Damon just another old, overpaid player who will struggle in the two last years. And you can't trade him.hehehee:D

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

It seems that the Red Sox are lucky and get Crisp without getting rid of Marte, Shoppach etc.

Clement to the Reds Kearns to the Indians and Crisp to the beloved Red Sox. He will get 350'000$ next year...and he's bound till 2009.

What a sweeeet deal...

And you have in Damon just another old, overpaid player who will struggle in the two last years. And you can't trade him.hehehee:D

I am still not happy with the Damon deal. Although he's a better hitter than Crosby, I would have sticked with the latter. IMO Crosby is a better fielder, as far as I can see from this side of the ocean...

OK we needed a leadoff hitter, but still...

[pacewon]

It seems that the Red Sox are lucky and get Crisp without getting rid of Marte, Shoppach etc.

Clement to the Reds Kearns to the Indians and Crisp to the beloved Red Sox. He will get 350'000$ next year...and he's bound till 2009.

What a sweeeet deal...

And you have in Damon just another old, overpaid player who will struggle in the two last years. And you can't trade him.hehehee:D

How 'bout you keep this nonsense on the Sox board?

Crisp and Alex Gonzalez or whoever your crappy SS is gonna be is equal to Damon/Renteria at best. The Yankees and Blue Jays got better this offseason. The Red Sox still haven't. Have a great time in third place.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

How 'bout you keep this nonsense on the Sox board?

Crisp and Alex Gonzalez or whoever your crappy SS is gonna be is equal to Damon/Renteria at best. The Yankees and Blue Jays got better this offseason. The Red Sox still haven't. Have a great time in third place.

Relax Pacewon. He probably thinks that he can sense the rivalry, because he is a Red Sox fan. How could someone out of my part of the world do so, unless you live in New York or Boston?

[runningshoes]

Relax Pacewon. He probably thinks that he can sense the rivalry, because he is a Red Sox fan. How could someone out of my part of the world do so, unless you live in New York or Boston?

I don't live in Boston and I *&%$@#$%&*..ah, never mind. :D

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

I have an advice for SwissRedSoxFan. Just visit the "Bitter rivals" thread.

You can see overthere, how Yankee fans and Red Sox fans deal with each other on this board.

[DoubleX]

It seems that the Red Sox are lucky and get Crisp without getting rid of Marte, Shoppach etc.

Clement to the Reds Kearns to the Indians and Crisp to the beloved Red Sox. He will get 350'000$ next year...and he's bound till 2009.

What a sweeeet deal...

And you have in Damon just another old, overpaid player who will struggle in the two last years. And you can't trade him.hehehee:D

I haven't seen any report of that deal going through, and the first mention on these boards about that deal, I believe came from me in the Red Sox thread about the trade. In fact, the latest I have read about Crisp coming to the Red Sox is that the likelihood is decreasing (probably because the Indians got wise and realized they are built to contend now and should take that bet instead of gambling about the future). Anyway, here is an ESPN.com article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2307396) in which Jayson Stark reports that the odds of Crisp coming to Boston have fallen under 50%.

In sum, please, if you must rabble rouse, it might be a better idea to wait until something actually happens (but even then, please don't rabble rouse :)).

[SwissRedSoxFan]

How 'bout you keep this nonsense on the Sox board?

Crisp and Alex Gonzalez or whoever your crappy SS is gonna be is equal to Damon/Renteria at best. The Yankees and Blue Jays got better this offseason. The Red Sox still haven't. Have a great time in third place.

Yes I agree. Damon will be a good adition next year and maybe the year after...but after this...12 million for a bad arm which won't get better...

This IS an overpaid player. Damon himself said he was sad that the Red Sox show so little interest in him, and that he would have staid if etc etc. but I think 4 years are just too much and it isn't worth it.

With Gonzalez it's the same. He will sign for one year. And that's ok.

[DoubleX]

Relax Pacewon. He probably thinks that he can sense the rivalry, because he is a Red Sox fan. How could someone out of my part of the world do so, unless you live in New York or Boston?

You know, to be honest, after living in both cities, I really think that the rivalry exists much more in Boston. It's hard to describe, but the rivarly means a lot more to the fans in Boston than it does to Yankee fans in New York. There is a lot more passion about it in Boston, and a lot more pure hatred for the Yankees than there is by Yankee fans for the Red Sox. In recent years, I actually believe the passion in Boston has spilled over into New York and has increased Yankee fans passion about the rivalry, but a few years ago, the passion was really one-sided.

I think a good way to categorize the difference is that Boston fans automatically hate anything and everything Yankees, with a deep passion. Whereas Yankee fans don't necessarily hate the Red Sox, but feel a need to put the Red Sox down; like to put them in their place. Like I said, its hard to describe without really experiencing it in both cities, but the approach is very different, and the passion is greater in Boston.

Here is another analogy that might be better:

- The Boston fans' approach to the rivalry is fueled by a and reflects an inferiority complex.
- The New York fans' approach to the rivarly is fueled by and reflect a superiority complex.

I suppose historically, the difference in these approaches is pretty warranted.

[Mattingly]

It seems that the Red Sox are lucky and get Crisp without getting rid of Marte, Shoppach etc.

Clement to the Reds Kearns to the Indians and Crisp to the beloved Red Sox. He will get 350'000$ next year...and he's bound till 2009.

What a sweeeet deal...

And you have in Damon just another old, overpaid player who will struggle in the two last years. And you can't trade him.hehehee:D
I think that if you visit the Red Sox forum here, you'll see that several Yankee fans, including my co-Mod DoubleX, as well as yours truly, have discussed the Crisp situation with lots of intelligence, and have gotten into great discussions and exchanges of ideas with several long-time and highly dedicated Red Sox fans.

Please don't try rubbing anything into our faces here, especially for a deal--which like eggs--that hasn't even been hatched yet.

There are quite a few Red Sox fans who'd strongly expected Damon to re-sign with the team, and there are also admittedly several Yankee fans who've wondered aloud whether Damon will still be performing well in 2008 and 2009. I still don't see there being any need to get on Yankee fans cases about this on the Yankee forum.

I'll only say that you are a guest, so please act accordingly, and feel free to return, so long as you're willing to treat all of us with respect, just as we do on the Red Sox forum.

Thanks. :)

-Matt
How 'bout you keep this nonsense on the Sox board?

Crisp and Alex Gonzalez or whoever your crappy SS is gonna be is equal to Damon/Renteria at best. The Yankees and Blue Jays got better this offseason. The Red Sox still haven't. Have a great time in third place.
Thanks, but XX and myself will take care of guys/gals like that. :)

[hellborn]

How 'bout you keep this nonsense on the Sox board?

Crisp and Alex Gonzalez or whoever your crappy SS is gonna be is equal to Damon/Renteria at best. The Yankees and Blue Jays got better this offseason. The Red Sox still haven't. Have a great time in third place.
Yeah, that Beckett is useless...the Yanks sure couldn't use a young, solid starter. Gonzalez should play about like OCab did in '04, which worked well enough (he didn't hit for the Bosox). At least he should be able to bend over for a grounder, unlike Granpa "Lumbago" Renteria. Crisp is not equal to Damon at his best, but Damon was awfully shaky late last year, and guys who sign big contracts are famous for showing up the next year in worse shape than their free agent year.
Yanks should have a strong offense barring a series of major disasters, but every pitcher up to Rivera is a question mark. You guys are walking a pitching knife edge.

[DoubleX]

Yanks should have a strong offense barring a series of major disasters, but every pitcher up to Rivera is a question mark. You guys are walking a pitching knife edge.

Oh boy...If you want to talk pitching staffs, I think the Sox have plenty to worry about...Let's see here...

Beckett: Beckett has never pitched more than 178 innings in a year. The guy's career has been constantly sidetracked by injuries, so I would worry that the trend would continue this year. Even if he stays healthy, how will his arm hold up for 200 innings? No one knows because it's never happened. Additionally, over the last 3 years, Beckett's ERA has been 2 runs higher away from pitcher friendly Dolphins Stadium than at Dolphins Stadium. How many games for the Red Sox will he be pitching in Dolphins Stadium this year? Beckett puts a lot of runners on base, via hits and walks, and Fenway and that Green Monster and the DH are not going to help that at all. Plus, there is always the question of how will he adjust to both the AL and the Boston environment? In sum, Beckett has a good upside, but he is littered with question marks.

Schilling: He's 39 and coming off an injury-mired year. Schilling had trouble staying healthy when he was 29, so how do you think he'll hold up at 39? He looked pretty shaky last year after he came back.

Wells: If he stays, he's 43 with a balky back. He'll eat up innings when healthy and give mostly quality outings, but his age and health make him a huge question mark.

Clement: He struggled mightily in the 2nd half of last year and that has to be cause for concern. Can he bounce back? Can he mentally get past that comebacker?

Wakefield: He's about the only guy that is a given in this rotation, and that given is a guy that's a 4th starter who will eat innings and post an ERA in the low to mid 4s. Not great, but not a huge question mark either. He's also 39.

Arroyo: He's a 4th or 5th starter at best, and I'd rather go to war with Chacon or Wang in those spots than Arroyo.

Papelbon: He's still very much an unknown. Good prospect, but we still need to see what he can do when given a chance.

Bullpen: What do the Sox have besides Timlin? Foulke is coming off a terrible and injury-riddled season. How will he recover this year? Who else is in there? Mota? Seanez? Tavarez? All journeymen quality middle relievers.

Here's how the rotations look when matched up together:

1) Randy Johnson v. Josh Beckett: Until Beckett can prove that he can A) Stay healthy; B) Pitch well under the duress of a whole season's work and 200+ innings; C) Can pitch as well away from Dolphins Stadium (where he won't pitch anymore) as he did at Dolphins Stadium, then I gotta go with the Hall of Famer on this one, despite his age and balky back.
Advantage: Yankees

2) Mike Mussina v. Curt Schilling: This is a tough one since Mussina has been maddingly inconsistent in recent years, but at least we know he'll be out there. Schilling on the other hand, has had an entire career marred by injuries, and at age 39, I wouldn't be optimistic that he could suddenly be healthy, especially since he couldn't stay healthy at age 29, or more importantly, last year at age 38. If Schilling stays healthy, this is his advantage, but his career suggests that's a big IF, so I have to say this is a push for the time being.
Advantage: Push

3) Shawn Chacon v. David Wells: Well is 43, has a bad back, and doesn't want to pitch for Boston anymore. That all makes for a winning recipe. Chacon is young and has wicked breaking stuff that should only improve now that he's out of the thin air of Denver. I like Chacon's makeup, I like his stuff (it's not easy to pitch well for the Rockies, and he's done that), so I go with Chacon here.
Advantage: Yankees

4) Carl Pavano v. Matt Clement: Ugh, they're like the same guy almost. Both were once high prospects that never really seemed to fulfill their potential, but were given big contracts in the AL based on one good NL season. Both are young, but Clement has a better track record, so I'll give him the advantage here (assuming he can psychologically recover from the comebacker). He also gets points because he was great in the first half last year (then again, so was Javier Vazquez for the Yanks two years ago).
Advantage: Red Sox

5) Tim Wakefield v. Chien-Ming Wang: Wakefield is certainly steady and the Yanks have trouble with him, but overall, he's nothing special and the rest of the league doesn't seem to have much of a problem with him. Wang has great stuff that should improve with experience.
Advantage: Yankees

Other) Jaret Wright/Aaron Small v. Bronson Arroyo/Jonathan Papelbon: Without further analysis, I give this to the Sox just because the Yanks have Jaret Wright. He's terrible! Small was a great story last year, but I need to see him do it again to sell me on him. Arroyo would make good back of the end starter on most teams and Papelbon has a lot of potential.
Advantage: Red Sox

So in the projected 5-man rotations, the Yankees come ahead in 3 of the spots, with a push in one, and the Red Sox in 1.

The basic point the Sox rotation has more than its share of question marks as well as age issues. The bullpen is also a question mark, and without much depth, and may not have a bonafide closer.

[hellborn]

XX,
Good analysis, and you are obviously right that the Bosox have their share of big questions. To quibble just a little, I think that you brush by RJ's age rather quickly, and Wang has to prove that he can stay healthy, too, even if he has nice stuff. Chacon was a brilliant pickup for you, Theo must have been too busy sticking needles in Lucchino voodoo dolls to make that grab. But, we also have Lester and Hansen coming along soon, beyond Papelbon ...unknown ML quantities, albeit arms that any team would love to have. And, somehow, I'm not worried about Foulke...I'd be amazed if he didn't come back strong.

Getting back to your original point, though, about Boston not improving this offseason while the Yanks and Jays got better...IF the Bosox get Crisp and a good defensive shortstop, I think that they're better off as far as position players than last year. Youk has to be better than Millar, and Lowell should be a solid defensive 3B, although his bat is an X factor. If Lowell bombs, Youk can play 3rd and some warm body at first can easily match Millar. I think that Beckett can only improve what was a shaky starting corps last year.
Yanks added Damon, who should be a decent upgrade but has physical questions, and got Farnsworth to replace Gordon in the pen. Farnsworth was fine last year, but can you really count on the guy? I'm just not seeing how the Bosox have lost ground to the Yanks IF they get Crisp and a usable SS. Renteria just killed the defense last year.
As for the Jays...I think they spent a lot of money on the wrong pitchers, but I suppose they could pan out. At least Ryan doesn't have a lot of wear on his arm. Glaus should be an upgrade, but he could be on the DL all year, too. Overbay is a nice player. JP at least succeeded in making a splash.

I also liked your post on the difference between Bosox and Yank fans...I am embarrassed at times by the whole "Yankees Suck" mentality. I am more than happy to dislike the Yankees without making it a defining feature of my life. I do have to say that I have never met a Yankee fan who truly loved his team and baseball, but I'm sure that you are the exception to my experience.
Here's to another epic battle in '06...and, Jays, please keep out of it!

[DoubleX]

XX,
Good analysis, and you are obviously right that the Bosox have their share of big questions. To quibble just a little, I think that you brush by RJ's age rather quickly, and Wang has to prove that he can stay healthy, too, even if he has nice stuff. Chacon was a brilliant pickup for you, Theo must have been too busy sticking needles in Lucchino voodoo dolls to make that grab. But, we also have Lester and Hansen coming along soon, beyond Papelbon ...unknown ML quantities, albeit arms that any team would love to have. And, somehow, I'm not worried about Foulke...I'd be amazed if he didn't come back strong.

Getting back to your original point, though, about Boston not improving this offseason while the Yanks and Jays got better...IF the Bosox get Crisp and a good defensive shortstop, I think that they're better off as far as position players than last year. Youk has to be better than Millar, and Lowell should be a solid defensive 3B, although his bat is an X factor. If Lowell bombs, Youk can play 3rd and some warm body at first can easily match Millar. I think that Beckett can only improve what was a shaky starting corps last year.
Yanks added Damon, who should be a decent upgrade but has physical questions, and got Farnsworth to replace Gordon in the pen. Farnsworth was fine last year, but can you really count on the guy? I'm just not seeing how the Bosox have lost ground to the Yanks IF they get Crisp and a usable SS. Renteria just killed the defense last year.
As for the Jays...I think they spent a lot of money on the wrong pitchers, but I suppose they could pan out. At least Ryan doesn't have a lot of wear on his arm. Glaus should be an upgrade, but he could be on the DL all year, too. Overbay is a nice player. JP at least succeeded in making a splash.

I also liked your point on the difference between Bosox and Yank fans...I am embarrassed at times by the whole "Yankees Suck" mentality. I am more than happy to dislike the Yankees without making it a defining feature of my life. I do have to say that I have never met a Yankee fan who truly loved his team and baseball, but I'm sure that you are the exception to my experience.
Here's to another epic battle in '06...and, Jays, please keep out of it!

Hellborn,

You would not be the first Red Sox fan to call me an exception to Yankee fans. :)

As for your points, they're all good, but I do think that unless the Crisp deal goes down, that the Jays will have picked up major ground on the Yanks. First and foremost, I think the Jays have the most underrated pitching staff in the division, and by far the best. Consider that their fifth starter, Josh Towers, pitched 209 innings last year with a 3.71 ERA, that's pretty darn good for your 5th guy. Roy Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in the AL. A.J. Burnett is essentially the same as Josh Beckett, except that Burnett has thrown more than 200 innings twice, but both are young, with upsides that have been sidetracked by injuries (both also have attitude questions). Gustavo Chacin is very underrated, he was terrific last year as a rookie. And Ted Lilly is very solid lefty. The White Sox showed us last year demonstrated how far a team could go with a solid rotation, and like I said, the Jays have clearly the best rotation in the division. BJ Ryan also gives them the second best closer in the division.

As for offense, they're still lacking compared to the Yanks and Sox, but picking up Glaus and Overbay gives them some punch in the middle of that lineup, along with Wells and Hillenbrand. At the very least, I'd say they have more offensive power than last year's White Sox, so I think the Jays do have a good formula place.

As for the Sox, I've said this a few times this offseason, that their offense also has some question marks and it seems that management is really hoping for the best case scenario with some players. I'll run down my thoughts on the lineup again:

1B - Kevin Youkilis and JT Snow: Your right, at the very least, this should be a step up from Kevin Millar. Still, no one knows how Kevin Youkilis will perform given extended action, and Snow's bat is pretty weak. I really don't understand why the team didn't just keep Bill Mueller around and move him to 1B after the Lowell pickup and have Youkilis on the bench for depth? Mueller was a hard-nosed, scrappy hitter who showed that he was perfect for Fenway (reminds me a lot of Carney Lansford).

2B - Mark Loretta: This was a tremendous pickup, especially considering that it only took giving up a backup catcher. Then again, makes you wonder why the Padres would make that deal? A lot of people think Loretta is in decline. I, however, think he'll fit in perfectly in Boston and put up numbers similar to Todd Walker a few years ago, while providing better defense.

SS - Alex Gonzalez hasn't been signed yet, so it's Alex Cora for the meantime. But does it really matter either way? Gonzalez is a step up defensively, but both are terrible hitters and don't have much speed for middle infielders. I think the Sox should have been more patient with Renteria, given him at least one more year. Barring a major trade, this will be a major hole in the Sox lineup.

3B - Mike Lowell: I started a thread in the history forum a couple months ago asking about other players historically that have had such drastic decline seasons, during their peak years, as Lowell last year. There were some, but not many. Lowell was absolutely dreadful last year. Defensively he was fine, but his bat was completely useless. If he can bounce back, this will be a great pickup for the Sox and provide some more punch in the middle of that lineup (other than Manny and Ortiz), but what if he doesn't bounce back? What if last year is the norm now? I personally found his performance last year pretty suspicious given the steroids testing in place. I do expect Lowell to bounce back at least a little since his swing is made for Fenway.

C - Jason Varitek: One of the 3 or 4 best cathers in the game. He is 34 though, and showed signs of wear and tear and he slowed down greatly during the second half last year. He (like Posada) will need more rest if he is to be effective down the stretch.

LF - Manny Ramirez: Hall of Fame hitter, crappy attitude. Manny isn't happy, which is probably per usual, but its one thing to have a surly star when a team is winning, it's another when the team is struggling. Manny's attitude could become a big factor if the Sox struggle some early in the season.

CF - Adam Stern is the guy right now, as the Crisp deal is looking more unlikely by the minute. I think getting Crisp would be great for the Sox (and a ridiculous move by the Indians). He's already just about as good as Damon, plus he's 6 years younger, so he should only get better. But this is all just presumption at this point, as of right now, this, like SS, is a glaring hole for the Sox.

RF - Trot Nixon: I like Trot, but he has trouble staying healthy and trouble hitting lefties. Nonetheless, if he stays healthy, he's nice to have in the middle of that lineup.

DH - David Ortiz: He's about the only sure thing in this lineup, and that's quite a sure thing.

Depth: If guys like Stern and Cora are starting (which is the case now), what does that say about the bench for this team? Beyond Graffanino, this team has nothing behind the starters (and has nothing at a couple of starters).

Speed: Unless Crisp comes, this team has absolutely no speed and will probably be the slowest in the majors. I know some people think that's not a big deal, but speed produces runs. Speed takes extra bases. Speed steals bases. Speed goes from first to third. Speed legs out those infield singles. Speed allows for the hit and run to be executed. Speed allows for sacrifice flies and bunts. Speed is a major part of winning games, and it won't be an element at all of the Sox under their present configuration.

Also, about your point me glossing over Johnson's age, your right. But I was strictly comparing him against Josh Beckett. Beckett pitched 179 innings last year, Johnson pitched 226. The year before Beckett pitched 157, while Johnson pitched 246. My point was, that despite Johnson's age and back problems, he has proven to be the safer bet than Beckett at this point. We don't know if Beckett can make the long haul, and if he can, how he'll hold up over the long haul. We have a better idea about Johnson, even given his age.

[DoubleX]

Also Hellborn,

I'm not meaning to imply that the Yanks are without questions. Giambi is an obvious question mark for obvious reasons. Will Cano improve or have a sophomore slump? Posada has the same age and wear and tear issues as Varitek. Sheffield is 37. Bernie is the DH and his bat is in major decline. And then there's Damon (who I personally really don't like).

[moebarguy]

Hellborn,
Roy Halladay is arguably the best pitcher in the AL.


I'd take Johan Santana over him.

Hellborn,
Gustavo Chacin is very underrated, he was terrific last year as a rookie.


If anything, the guy was overrated -- his whip was 1.39! That calls for a higher ERA next season.

Hellborn,
And Ted Lilly is very solid lefty.


I think he'll bounce back a little, but he struggled a lot last season.

[DoubleX]

I'd take Johan Santana over him.

Hence my use of the word "arguably." Santana was the other pitcher I had in mind. If Halladay wasn't injured last year, the Cy Young was likely his.


If anything, the guy was overrated -- his whip was 1.39! That calls for a higher ERA next season.

Very true, but he as a 24 year old rookie, so he could just as easily improve next year.

I think he'll bounce back a little, but he struggled a lot last season.

Lilly did struggle last year, but he had some good stretches. I expect him to bounce back as well. He has good stuff (I still wish the Yankees never let him go in the Jeff Weaver deal).

[pacewon]

Yes I agree. Damon will be a good adition next year and maybe the year after...but after this...12 million for a bad arm which won't get better...

This IS an overpaid player. Damon himself said he was sad that the Red Sox show so little interest in him, and that he would have staid if etc etc. but I think 4 years are just too much and it isn't worth it.

With Gonzalez it's the same. He will sign for one year. And that's ok.

I take it you hate Varitek's contract too?

[Tinyballer]

Looks like the red sox are falling further from gettin crisp imagine if the blue jays got him imagine wut kinda progress they would have made on the red sox

[Ontarioguy]

Looks like the BoSox got Coco after all.

From the front page of MLB.com:

The Indians have sent outfielder Coco Crisp, reliever David Riske and catcher Josh Bard to Boston for reliever Guillermo Mota, prospects Andy Marte and Kelly Shoppach and cash

Looks like another interesting year in the AL East.

[pacewon]

Getting back to your original point, though, about Boston not improving this offseason while the Yanks and Jays got better...IF the Bosox get Crisp and a good defensive shortstop, I think that they're better off as far as position players than last year. Youk has to be better than Millar, and Lowell should be a solid defensive 3B, although his bat is an X factor. If Lowell bombs, Youk can play 3rd and some warm body at first can easily match Millar.

At best, the Sox position players are the same as last year. Crisp + Gonzalez vs. Damon + Renteria is a wash, if not Damon/Renteria is a tad better. Crisp's RAA ratings in his 150+ games in CF are not promising. The Sox infield looks like an utter disaster to me. Lowell has been awful since the 2004 All-Star break and had an OPS+ of 77 last year. If Youkilis is playing third, then the warm body you have at 1B is JT Snow, whose OPS+ was 88 last year compared to Millar's 100. The defensive upgrade pulls Snow a little closer, but his bat might decline some more, as is common in a lot of 38-year old ball players. Loretta will help if he's healthy, but I predict Varitek to regress a bit off his 2005, and bringing Graffanino back wasn't a great move.

XX noted the potential pitching problems the Sox staff have, and I'm not enamored with their bullpen at all. Foulke's improvement will be cancelled out some by Timlin's predictable return to form. Seanez lasted 9 games in his first go around in Boston, Tavarez is a headcase, and they lost Myers who was great against lefties. Guys like Delcarmen better be the real deal, or I won't be surprised to see Boston finish dead last in the AL in bullpen ERA. Again.

Damon is replacing Bernie Williams in CF. Even assuming a poor year offensively for Damon, say 100 OPS+, he's an offensive improvement over Bernie. The improvement we get on the defensive end is astronomical.

The Jays went 80-82 last year despite the loss of Halladay. They've added Ryan, Burnett, Overbay, and Glaus. Even if 2 of those guys are busts, they're better than last year.

[DoubleX]

At best, the Sox position players are the same as last year. Crisp + Gonzalez vs. Damon + Renteria is a wash, if not Damon/Renteria is a tad better. Crisp's RAA ratings in his 150+ games in CF are not promising. The Sox infield looks like an utter disaster to me. Lowell has been awful since the 2004 All-Star break and had an OPS+ of 77 last year. If Youkilis is playing third, then the warm body you have at 1B is JT Snow, whose OPS+ was 88 last year compared to Millar's 100. The defensive upgrade pulls Snow a little closer, but his bat might decline some more, as is common in a lot of 38-year old ball players. Loretta will help if he's healthy, but I predict Varitek to regress a bit off his 2005, and bringing Graffanino back wasn't a great move.

XX noted the potential pitching problems the Sox staff have, and I'm not enamored with their bullpen at all. Foulke's improvement will be cancelled out some by Timlin's predictable return to form. Seanez lasted 9 games in his first go around in Boston, Tavarez is a headcase, and they lost Myers who was great against lefties. Guys like Delcarmen better be the real deal, or I won't be surprised to see Boston finish dead last in the AL in bullpen ERA. Again.

Damon is replacing Bernie Williams in CF. Even assuming a poor year offensively for Damon, say 100 OPS+, he's an offensive improvement over Bernie. The improvement we get on the defensive end is astronomical.

The Jays went 80-82 last year despite the loss of Halladay. They've added Ryan, Burnett, Overbay, and Glaus. Even if 2 of those guys are busts, they're better than last year.

Nice post Pace. I'd actually say that the Damon/Renteria combination is a noticeable step up from Crisp/Gonzalez, though Renteria was pretty bad for the Sox last year. He's only 30 and entitlted to an off season like everyone else, I expect him to bounce back and have a good year for the Braves. Gonzalez is pretty close to useless at the plate, but his defense is pretty good.

You make a good point about the Jays. In addition to adding those names, the Jays also have a number of young players that could step-up this year and contribute. Plus, as you noted, they went almost .500 last year with Halladay gone for half the year, so if Halladay is healthy this year, that's gotta be worth at least a handful of more wins.

[Evangelion]

I have to agree. Very nice post, pacewon.

Just keep in mind that Lowell still did win a Gold Glove last year. While he might not help with the bat, he will provide excellent defense for the Red Sox at 3B without a doubt. Lowell could bounce back, but that's a ''If'' going into the season, which is not what a team like to go into the season with an ''If'' at a position.

At this point, I can't say Crisp will be better than Damon or the other way around. Damon fade around the end of last season, but I doubt that is nothing to be concern about. Crisp has just got better with each passing season, so the trend might continue. Biggest thing is Crisp need to come close to replace Damon's on base abilities for Boston not to be hurt all that much by Damon's lost. Of course, the lost still hurt since he's on a division rival team.

Regardless what happen, unless it's Lugo, the Red Sox have completely down-grade at SS this season from last season.

I really do wonder what the Jays will do this season. They man handle the Sox last season, which helps cover ground on a division rival. I think they did well against the Yankees, but I need to check the numbers. Quietly, they finished with a moderate record and this year, on paper, they're a far superior team from last season. We can only wait and see what Toronto will do this season.

[DoubleX]

Just keep in mind that Lowell still did win a Gold Glove last year. While he might not help with the bat, he will provide excellent defense for the Red Sox at 3B without a doubt. Lowell could bounce back, but that's a ''If'' going into the season, which is not what a team like to go into the season with an ''If'' at a position.

I expect Lowell to rebound well in Boston and have a nice year, but if does hit like last year, Gold Glove defense is not enough to merit him being in the lineup.

[pacewon]

I have to agree. Very nice post, pacewon.

Just keep in mind that Lowell still did win a Gold Glove last year. While he might not help with the bat, he will provide excellent defense for the Red Sox at 3B without a doubt. Lowell could bounce back, but that's a ''If'' going into the season, which is not what a team like to go into the season with an ''If'' at a position.

At this point, I can't say Crisp will be better than Damon or the other way around. Damon fade around the end of last season, but I doubt that is nothing to be concern about. Crisp has just got better with each passing season, so the trend might continue. Biggest thing is Crisp need to come close to replace Damon's on base abilities for Boston not to be hurt all that much by Damon's lost. Of course, the lost still hurt since he's on a division rival team.

Regardless what happen, unless it's Lugo, the Red Sox have completely down-grade at SS this season from last season.

I really do wonder what the Jays will do this season. They man handle the Sox last season, which helps cover ground on a division rival. I think they did well against the Yankees, but I need to check the numbers. Quietly, they finished with a moderate record and this year, on paper, they're a far superior team from last season. We can only wait and see what Toronto will do this season.

I definitely expect Lowell to hit better at Fenway than he did at Pro Player, though I say best case scenario is he equals Bill Mueller.

I'm pretty sure the Yanks handled the Jays pretty well in '05 - it was those pesky Devil Rays we couldn't figure out.

[FlashGordon]

Nice post Pace. I'd actually say that the Damon/Renteria combination is a noticeable step up from Crisp/Gonzalez, though Renteria was pretty bad for the Sox last year. He's only 30 and entitlted to an off season like everyone else, I expect him to bounce back and have a good year for the Braves. Gonzalez is pretty close to useless at the plate, but his defense is pretty good.I suppose the question is, step up from what? From last year's production it'll be be awfully hard for Crisp to top Johnny Damon, but not impossible and he does come a lot cheaper. If nothing else, we Red Sox fans won't have anxiety flashes when Coco charges hard into the wall or toward the infield. Be sure to pad up Jeter and Damon. ;)

Gonzalez/Renteria? Until the announcement is made this is academic, but I'd still have to say that it won't be that difficult for Gonzalez (or anyone else) to top Renteria's season. I would have liked to give him another year to turn it around, but based solely upon his one stint in a Boston uni, it's hard to argue that Gonzalez would be a step down.

[pesky6]

How 'bout you keep this nonsense on the Sox board?

Crisp and Alex Gonzalez or whoever your crappy SS is gonna be is equal to Damon/Renteria at best. The Yankees and Blue Jays got better this offseason. The Red Sox still haven't. Have a great time in third place.

Dude, like you never go trolling on the Sox board? :laugh

[DoubleX]

I suppose the question is, step up from what? From last year's production it'll be be awfully hard for Crisp to top Johnny Damon, but not impossible and he does come a lot cheaper. If nothing else, we Red Sox fans won't have anxiety flashes when Coco charges hard into the wall or toward the infield. Be sure to pad up Jeter and Damon. ;)

Gonzalez/Renteria? Until the announcement is made this is academic, but I'd still have to say that it won't be that difficult for Gonzalez (or anyone else) to top Renteria's season. I would have liked to give him another year to turn it around, but based solely upon his one stint in a Boston uni, it's hard to argue that Gonzalez would be a step down.

I think my point was that despite Renteria's struggles last year, going into '06, I'd rather have Damon/Renteria than Crisp/Gonzalez. So I think we agree. :)

[pacewon]

Dude, like you never go trolling on the Sox board? :laugh

I've never posted any "ha ha's" or anything to the degree of Swiss Fan's nonsense here; it's also comical that you're going to call me out for trolling on the Sox board while you are simultaneously trolling on the Yankees forum. How 'bout you go back to third place where you came from?

[pacewon]

I suppose the question is, step up from what? From last year's production it'll be be awfully hard for Crisp to top Johnny Damon, but not impossible and he does come a lot cheaper. If nothing else, we Red Sox fans won't have anxiety flashes when Coco charges hard into the wall or toward the infield. Be sure to pad up Jeter and Damon. ;)

Gonzalez/Renteria? Until the announcement is made this is academic, but I'd still have to say that it won't be that difficult for Gonzalez (or anyone else) to top Renteria's season. I would have liked to give him another year to turn it around, but based solely upon his one stint in a Boston uni, it's hard to argue that Gonzalez would be a step down.

It actually probably won't be that tough for Crisp to top Damon. He already beat him in OPS+ last year (119 to 113), and at age 32 I don't see Damon improving much upon that mark. I don't know if Crisp will improve, but at age 26, he certainly could. Damon is still a good defensive CF, however, whereas Crisp's RAA numbers as a CF aren't that promising. That could turn out to be a fluke and he could be a very good CF, but even if it isn't, he's still got a slight offensive advantage on Damon.

Renteria vs. Gonzalez is the opposite... Gonzalez's glove will be a big time upgrade; even if he only plays average defense (not tough to replace Renteria's 30 errors). That said, Gonzalez is just downright awful with the bat. Renteria's OPS+ with Boston last year was 91, and I'm sure all would agree that he was pretty lousy at the plate. Gonzalez's career OPS+ is 78, and his career OBP sits below .300 (.291).

[Mattingly]

Dude, like you never go trolling on the Sox board? :laugh
I've never posted any "ha ha's" or anything to the degree of Swiss Fan's nonsense here; it's also comical that you're going to call me out for trolling on the Sox board while you are simultaneously trolling on the Yankees forum. How 'bout you go back to third place where you came from?
That's about enough from the both of you.

Look, you're both very intelligent and highly passionate baseball fans. Simply because you two root for different teams doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get on each others' case. You both have the knowledge and ability to discuss baseball intelligently. My only suggestion is that you both do so.

I suggest you start doing so right now. If not, I'll ask both of you to exit this thread. I'd rather not do that, so I'd greatly appreciate it if neither of you forced my hand on this.

It's most interesting that a Red Sox Mod (Flash) and a Yankee Mod (XX) can discuss this very civilly here, but you two feel like getting on each others' cases. I've long said that in order for Yankee and Red Sox fans to understand each other, they should sit together and discuss subjects mutually important to them. Guess what? We're here. Please use that opportunity to your best advantage.

Thanks. :)

[pacewon]

That's about enough from the both of you.

Look, you're both very intelligent and highly passionate baseball fans. Simply because you two root for different teams doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get on each others' case. You both have the knowledge and ability to discuss baseball intelligently. My only suggestion is that you both do so.

I suggest you start doing so right now. If not, I'll ask both of you to exit this thread. I'd rather not do that, so I'd greatly appreciate it if neither of you forced my hand on this.

It's most interesting that a Red Sox Mod (Flash) and a Yankee Mod (XX) can discuss this very civilly here, but you two feel like getting on each others' cases. I've long said that in order for Yankee and Red Sox fans to understand each other, they should sit together and discuss subjects mutually important to them. Guess what? We're here. Please use that opportunity to your best advantage.

Thanks. :)

Matt, after I said what I had to say about Swiss Fan, you told me to leave it alone, and if you'll read the entire second page of this thread, I engaged in civil baseball discussion throughout. That's when pesky (the name's quite appropriate) trolled over and dropped his 2 cents. I'm hardly deserving of a lecture.

[FlashGordon]

I think my point was that despite Renteria's struggles last year, going into '06, I'd rather have Damon/Renteria than Crisp/Gonzalez. So I think we agree. :)Probably, but my evaluation comes in large part from the team stability factors. One thing that bothers me about the way the front office has been dealing players lately is their willingness to undermine established team chemistry or to allow a developing chemistry to run its course.

I think we both believe that Damon and Renteria at their best are still better than Crisp and Gonzalez at their best. That said, there is tremendous potential for growth for Crisp, and Gonzalez, who finds himself in the position that Renteria was in last year at this time, won't have to produce more than average results (even for him) to show he can quickly adapt.

[DoubleX]

Probably, but my evaluation comes in large part from the team stability factors. One thing that bothers me about the way the front office has been dealing players lately is their willingness to undermine established team chemistry or to allow a developing chemistry to run its course.

I think we both believe that Damon and Renteria at their best are still better than Crisp and Gonzalez at their best. That said, there is tremendous potential for growth for Crisp, and Gonzalez, who finds himself in the position that Renteria was in last year at this time, won't have to produce more than average results (even for him) to show he can quickly adapt.

I think Crisp has a great upside, and depending on his defense in CF (I've heard lots of conflicting things about it), I might rather have him than Damon at this point (especially since he's much younger and actually posted a better OPS+ than Damon last year). But Gonzalez is really just a stopgag - think Pokey Reese (but not as good defensively as Reese). I think I'd still rather have Renteria, even if he played like last year again (but I don't think he will) than Gonzalez.

[Evangelion]

Gonzalez is still a cheaper option than Renteria. Gonzalez has been a consistent fielder, so we can only hope he doesn't turn into the second coming of Edgar Renteria. Keep in mind, that Renteria was a number 2 hitter in Red Sox line-up while Alex Gonzalez will be the number 9 hitter in the Red Sox line-up. Renteria's numbers were pretty bad for a number 2 hitter while a number 9 hitter is never expect to be that great, which Gonzalez is not with the bat, but playing at Fenway, who know what will happen with Gonzalez's offense at this point.

Biggest question about Coco is how he'll handle being the lead-off hitter again. I think he's either little above or little below Damon at this point. Point being we replace Damon for the most part in the line-up, which was one of my major concern since Damon's departure really affected the entire line-up, mainly Ortiz and Rameriz. At this point, Coco has bad numbers out in CF from what I've seen, but we'll see how he'll do.

[DoubleX]

Gonzalez is still a cheaper option than Renteria. Gonzalez has been a consistent fielder, so we can only hope he doesn't turn into the second coming of Edgar Renteria. Keep in mind, that Renteria was a number 2 hitter in Red Sox line-up while Alex Gonzalez will be the number 9 hitter in the Red Sox line-up. Renteria's numbers were pretty bad for a number 2 hitter while a number 9 hitter is never expect to be that great, which Gonzalez is not with the bat, but playing at Fenway, who know what will happen with Gonzalez's offense at this point.

Biggest question about Coco is how he'll handle being the lead-off hitter again. I think he's either little above or little below Damon at this point. Point being we replace Damon for the most part in the line-up, which was one of my major concern since Damon's departure really affected the entire line-up, mainly Ortiz and Rameriz. At this point, Coco has bad numbers out in CF from what I've seen, but we'll see how he'll do.

You make a good point about the positing in the lineup being a factor. But then again, who will be batting no. 2 for the Sox this year? Loretta probably, right? There really isn't much difference between Loretta and Renteria in terms of hitting for last year and for their careers, except Renteria has a little more power (which isn't saying much) and a lot more speed.

Actually, now that I've taken a look at Loretta's statistics, he kind of experienced a Brett Boonesque type jump in his numbers at age 31, after years of consistenly lower production, and then he fell back down to that lower production last year (just like Boone did two years ago when he regressed back to his previous level). Like with Boone, I'm not a little suspicious of Loretta (though I am very, very suspicious of Boone, because his mid-career jump was huge, after a much longer track record of lower consistency, and his decline 2 years ago was very dramatic).

[pacewon]

From Lee Sinins today:

Alex Gonzalez is closing in on 3500 career Plate Appearances (he has 3488). When he reaches that figure, he'll rank 5th in the past half century for worst OBP vs. the league average among players with that many Plate Appearances.

His career OBP is .291. That's 25 points lower than Tony Womack's career OBP. Ouch.

[DoubleX]

From Lee Sinins today:

Alex Gonzalez is closing in on 3500 career Plate Appearances (he has 3488). When he reaches that figure, he'll rank 5th in the past half century for worst OBP vs. the league average among players with that many Plate Appearances.

His career OBP is .291. That's 25 points lower than Tony Womack's career OBP. Ouch.

Who are the other 4 players?

[pacewon]

Who are the other 4 players?

Hal Lanier, Doug Flynn, Johnnie LeMaster, and John Bateman.

[Mattingly]

Matt, after I said what I had to say about Swiss Fan, you told me to leave it alone, and if you'll read the entire second page of this thread, I engaged in civil baseball discussion throughout. That's when pesky (the name's quite appropriate) trolled over and dropped his 2 cents. I'm hardly deserving of a lecture.
I'm not too enthused about giving lectures or whatever people consider it, but you two may need to leave each other alone. If either of you have issues with the other, please PM XX and/or myself.

If there's an issue on the Boston forum, where XX and I have spent lots of time, we'll PM Annie and/or Flash. Same thing.

I've read most of the comments. So long as you two ask us to take care of things, we'll be OK.

pesky6, same goes for you. If you two have anything to clear the air over, please do so via PM.

Thx. :)

[ricky151]

he is no andruw jones or even nearly as good a player as grady sizemore. Why not talk about real center fielders like griffey, edmonds not some guy who belongs in left field.

[Mattingly]

he is no andruw jones or even nearly as good a player as grady sizemore. Why not talk about real center fielders like griffey, edmonds not some guy who belongs in left field.
Because he's young and seems to bat fairly well. He'll have lots more room to cover in 2006, and he'll have to call off both Manny and Trot, whereas before, he didn't have to call of anyone.

I'm personally not overly convinced that he can handle CF. Coco will have to prove this to me.

[Boston Boxer]

he is no andruw jones or even nearly as good a player as grady sizemore. Why not talk about real center fielders like griffey, edmonds not some guy who belongs in left field.

"he is no Andrew Jones"...really. No one is. As stated on our board (Red Sox) the reason everyone is talking about him is because it is really the only news lately. So if you want to talk about "real" center fielders, go ahead and start a thread...this should be interesting