FENCE DRILL does it help?

[wogdoggy]

any thoughts on the fence drill? How can you stick the bat in your belly button stand in the same position make a swing and not hit the fence? What does this drill promote except a linear movement to the ball.Do you want to teach that linear move just to promote keeping your hands inside the ball.Have someone toss a ball to you and see if and how hard you can hit it.Does anyone condone this drill and if so why?:ughh

[Ursa Major]

Hey, Woggy. Fair question, even though it resulted in both JBooth and I getting kicked off Nyman's site. And, I was chatting with Steve Englishbey about it just this afternoon. (Forgive the apparent name-dropping; it in fact is the first time I ever talked with the guy.)

After talking with these folks who are much smarter than I, I've concluded that it may have an initial, temporary advantage to some kids to show them they need to keep their hands back as they rotate. Maybe just have the coaches do it to show that it can be done; there's a bit of "shock and awe" value to it.

The risk is that, absent a whole lot of focus, players will "cheat" to avoid clanging their bat against the fence by simply bring their hands forward during the swing or leaning away from the fence. So, I would say that it's okay for kids who disconnect their arms from their torso too soon, but you definitely should stop it as soon as you see this "cheating" commence, maybe even ceasing its use after just the first practice in which it's used if necessary. Many people feel any potential advantages are outweighed by the risk and should never be used. I'm not sure what alternative drills should be used instead.

[wogdoggy]

I cant even get close to doing this drill.lol.Now if I step back a good foot or two I have a shot. are you and booth proponents of the drill?

[jbooth]

I cant even get close to doing this drill.lol.Now if I step back a good foot or two I have a shot. are you and booth proponents of the drill?

I'm 6 feet tall and I can stand with my toes 20 inches from the fence, take a normal swing and not hit the fence.

You MUST keep your hands at your shoulder, turn JUST your shoulders, leaving the hands and bat alone as you turn. The bathead and your hands do NOT move from their original RELATIVE position to the shoulder until you have rotated far enough that your chest is facing the pitcher. THEN, you move your hands AROUND your body toward your front shoulder.

As Ursa said, it's not a good drill if they don't understand what it is trying to accomplish, and they do it incorrectly. Also, you shouldn't stand so close that you make the swing totally artificial, but you shouldn't stand so far away that you can swing without emphasizing keeping your hands close to the body and moving them around the body with the shoulder rotation.

The main purpose of the drill is to learn that the bathead is the LAST thing to move, and that you have to keep your hands back at the shoulder and close to the body as you rotate.

Sounds like you just don't know how to do it.

Here's me doing it;

http://firstpickclub.com/video/fencedrill.mpg

[wogdoggy]

nice job john.I couldnt do that.

[hiddengem]

nice job john.I couldnt do that.

Yes you could, with a little guidance.

[MSandman]

I'm 6 feet tall and I can stand with my toes 20 inches from the fence, take a normal swing and not hit the fence.

Jim,

I guess that depends what you mean by "normal". Sure looks to me like disconnection of the arms from the torso. :noidea


http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Jim%20Booth%20vs.%20Glaus%20&%20Nomar.jpg

[bbjunkie]

Great job. Now, forgive my ignorance, but do you consider your swing rotational or linear?

[wogdoggy]

disconnection, i knew i'd hear that.:noidea

[MSandman]

disconnection, i knew i'd hear that.:noidea

And???

BTW, does anyone see the image I posted right here w/in the thread? I only see a hyperlink to the JPG. Thanks.

[wogdoggy]

I see it and I know what you are talking about.i;m not here to argue but to learn and benefit.even though booth can do the drill Im not so sure if its the right thing to teach or use for any reason.I WANT TO BELIEVE,BUT I CAN"T.:noidea

Gem does anybody use this on a pro level?

[hiddengem]

Jim,

I guess that depends what you mean by "normal". Sure looks to me like disconnection of the arms from the torso. :noidea


http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Jim%20Booth%20vs.%20Glaus%20&%20Nomar.jpg


Those pictures have absolutely no compaison to JBooth pictures. Jim is doing the drill to prove a point, as to how the fence drill works. Both Troy and Nomar are about 6-10inches further off the plate than Jim is, and the balls they are hitting are out over the plate. If those pitches they were hitting were in on the inside corner and up a few inches, you would see differen't positions in both of them.

[MSandman]

wog,

I'm not arguing either, please forgive me if my post implies an argumentative tone. It's tough not to online... whenever one present's a counterpoint, even w/ NO intended malicious tone, the fact that it's questioning or disagreeing can come across that way.

I have the same questions/doubts you do about usefulness of the drill.

[jbooth]

Jim,

I guess that depends what you mean by "normal". Sure looks to me like disconnection of the arms from the torso. :noidea


http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Jim%20Booth%20vs.%20Glaus%20&%20Nomar.jpg

It's a DRILL!!! Drills are designed to give the athlete a "feeling" of what needs to be done.

The f--ing drill doesn't have to be a picture perfect swing. The DRILL is giving me the feeling of keeping the hands in and keeping the bathead back, and using the shoulders to move the bat. It's training a feeling to have when I make a game swing at a moving ball. You just don't seem to get it.

[jbooth]

Great job. Now, forgive my ignorance, but do you consider your swing rotational or linear?

It's rotational.

[hiddengem]

I see it and I know what you are talking about.i;m not here to argue but to learn and benefit.even though booth can do the drill Im not so sure if its the right thing to teach or use for any reason.I WANT TO BELIEVE,BUT I CAN"T.:noidea

Gem does anybody use this on a pro level?


Yea its used on occasions. The drill is designed to help you understand that the barrell of the bat, doesn't cast off the shoulder, but lags while the body is rotating. The bat is brought to the ball by the rotation of the shoulders and hips, not by the arms (casting).

If Jim were to retake this video and stand off the same plate 6-10inches my guess is that you would see a swing very similar to the ones you see with Troy and Nomar. Its a drill guys.

[MSandman]

It's a DRILL!!! Drills are designed to give the athlete a "feeling" of what needs to be done.

The f--ing drill doesn't have to be a picture perfect swing. The DRILL is giving me the feeling of keeping the hands in and keeping the bathead back, and using the shoulders to move the bat. It's training a feeling to have when I make a game swing at a moving ball. You just don't seem to get it.

No Jim, I DO get it. But in my mind, drills are meant as a way to guide a player through the movements we'd want them to execute in their game swing, but w/o the challenge of tracking a live pitch. I just don't see that happening here.

Now take a deep breath and relax. :p

[jbooth]

Those pictures have absolutely no compaison to JBooth pictures. Jim is doing the drill to prove a point, as to how the fence drill works. Both Troy and Nomar are about 6-10inches further off the plate than Jim is, and the balls they are hitting are out over the plate. If those pitches they were hitting were in on the inside corner and up a few inches, you would see differen't positions in both of them.

That's right. In a game swing at a pitch middle/out my hands and back elbow would take a slightly different path. What these Nyman Bozos can't understand is that the DRILL is teaching you to not disconnect EARLY and/or AWAY from the body. It is designed to keep the hands in by practicing hitting a simulated inside pitch. If you can correctly swing and hit an inside pitch, it's pretty easy to adjust to the outside one. If you disconnect away and reach out at outside pitches, you will never get the inside pitch. The drill teaches staying in with the hands, and rotating the bat with the shoulders. It isn't designed to practice a game swing. It's exagerrating the movement so you will learn it. Exagerrating the movement makes my swing a little different from my game swing, but as YOU intelligently noted; I was proving that you could swing at normal speed without doing extremely strange movements and not hit the fence.

[jbooth]

But in my mind, drills are meant as a way to guide a player through the movements we'd want them to execute in their game swing, but w/o the challenge of tracking a live pitch.

That's true, but sometimes just going through the "perfect" motion without a live pitch, isn't enough. It doesn't "do the trick." Sometimes, you have to exagerrate the movement so the brain wakes up to the feeling, then you adjust back to the movement that you actually want.

The drill is trying to fix a problem, not drill a perfect swing. If you have a perfect swing you don't need the dang drill, you just need to practice your swing to keep it perfect.

If all you had to do was demonstrate a perfect swing, and have the student do that over and over, you wouldn't need ANY drills whatsoever. EVER. Why do people invent drills? It's to correct a problem because they aren't doing what they should. If they can't do what they should, then you have to do something to fix it. The fence drill gives instant biofeedback on an incorrect swing and overemphasizes the desired movement, so that you can adjust to the correct movement.

Sorry to overreact.

[hiddengem]

But what's the point in standing so close to the fence that it "distorts" your swing into something like that? If we're so sure that "if Jim were to stand further back" that his swing would look like those, then WHY bother standing so close?

Because as Jim said, its designed to overemphasize how to get to a very tough pitch. If you understand how to get to THAT pitch it will help you understand how to get to the other easier pitches. Again, if you already have a pefect swing and understand how to get to a pitch up and in, then by all means don't do the drill, just hit.

And by the way..this pitch you are showing us, is NOT the same pitch Jim is getting to. Jr's ball is probably middle to middle/in. Jim's is up and in, probably on the black if not off the plate a bit.

[wogdoggy]

i'm not a nyman troll.thank you anyway.lol

[MSandman]

That's right. In a game swing at a pitch middle/out my hands and back elbow would take a slightly different path. What these Nyman Bozos can't understand is that the DRILL is teaching you to not disconnect EARLY and/or AWAY from the body. It is designed to keep the hands in by practicing hitting a simulated inside pitch. If you can correctly swing and hit an inside pitch, it's pretty easy to adjust to the outside one. If you disconnect away and reach out at outside pitches, you will never get the inside pitch. The drill teaches staying in with the hands, and rotating the bat with the shoulders. It isn't designed to practice a game swing. It's exagerrating the movement so you will learn it. Exagerrating the movement makes my swing a little different from my game swing, but as YOU intelligently noted; I was proving that you could swing at normal speed without doing extremely strange movements and not hit the fence.

Now Jim... why the hell must you start being rude like that? Name-calling has no place other than trying to pump your own ego, so get over yourself and stick to the topic, and leave your commentary to yourself please. Geez. Is this board moderated?

And fwiw, I'm NOT a Nyman disciple, tho I do agree w/ much of his concepts (but certainly not his style).

BTW, IMO, you ARE displaying "extremely strange movements".

Oh, and here's another one... where the hitter IS pulling in to reach an inside pitch. His lead arm is still MUCH closer to his torso and his rear forearm is leaning out a bit towards the plate (not across to the other side of his body).

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Jim%20Booth%20vs.%20Thomas.jpg

Perhaps you can film this drill again and swing at a thigh-high pitch?

[hiddengem]

Now Jim... why the hell must you start being rude like that? Name-calling has no place other than trying to pump your own ego, so get over yourself and stick to the topic, and leave your commentary to yourself please. Geez. Is this board moderated?

And fwiw, I'm NOT a Nyman disciple, tho I do agree w/ much of his concepts (but certainly not his style).

BTW, IMO, you ARE displaying "extremely strange movements".

Oh, and here's another one... where the hitter IS pulling in to reach an inside pitch. His lead arm is still MUCH closer to his torso and his rear forearm is leaning out a bit towards the plate (not across to the other side of his body).

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Jim%20Booth%20vs.%20Thomas.jpg

Perhaps you can film this drill again and swing at a thigh-high pitch?

I've also seen this clip, and this ball is out over the plate and Frank is hitting it to center/right center.

[MSandman]

I've also seen this clip, and this ball is out over the plate and Frank is hitting it to center/right center.

"His 400th career home run flew majestically toward left-center field ..."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030725&content_id=444608&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

[jbooth]

Perhaps you can film this drill again and swing at a thigh-high pitch?

No, it's a waste of my time. And, I already said I'm sorry for overreacting, but I'll repeat it here.

[hiddengem]

"His 400th career home run flew majestically toward left-center field ..."

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030725&content_id=444608&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Well I was wrong on the exact location the ball was hit, but still the pitch isn't the same as Jim's.

[MSandman]

No, it's a waste of my time. And, I already said I'm sorry for overreacting, but I'll repeat it here.

Thank you for the apology Jim. I had started typing my reply before you had done so.

I really would like to see the drill at a lower pitch tho. What's to lose? Maybe you'll convince me and if so, I'll concede. I'm always open to learning something.

[MSandman]

Well I was wrong on the exact location the ball was hit, but still the pitch isn't the same as Jim's.

Agreed, the height is certainly different, but I DO think it's still inside.

I really do think it'd be interesting to see the drill performed/filmed at lower pitches (at least something in the strike zone).

[hiddengem]

Agreed, the height is certainly different, but I DO think it's still inside.

I really do think it'd be interesting to see the drill performed/filmed at lower pitches (at least something in the strike zone).

We are working on getting a clip up of Tony Gwynn hitting the same pitch.

[MSandman]

We are working on getting a clip up of Tony Gwynn hitting the same pitch.

I assume you mean "the same HIGH pitch as Jim's" (which is up out of the strike zone, isn't it?).

Be careful w/ Gwynn tho... not sure we're comparing apples to apples :p

Jim Booth, 11-10-2005:
Tony Gwynn has no idea how a swing actually works either, and he was more of a Lau type hitter. Yes, he was a successful hitter, but that doesn't mean he actually knows how he did it or how to teach it. Plus, he was a linear hitter. 8 out of 10 of his hits were singles. If you want to hit the ball hard, you have to use rotational mechanics.
http://www.baseball-fever.com/archive/index.php/t-33799.html

I still think it would be more "relevant" to see Jim doing the drill at a pitch down in the zone, IMO.

[jbooth]

We are working on getting a clip up of Tony Gwynn hitting the same pitch.

Here is the clip you sent me, I'll let you comment on it;

http://firstpickclub.com/images/Tony Gwynn 001.jpg

[MSandman]

Is the actual video clip (GIF, AVI, MPG, etc.) available?


I can see very similar body positions to Jim's at this point in the swing (on this pitch, THIS TIME). Let me ask you something tho (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I genuinely am inquiring)... is this the USUAL way to hit an inside pitch? Or do you normally try to hit it out front more?

If the purpose of this drill is to still allow a hitter to get the barrel on the ball when he's a bit late/fooled, then I can see it might help w/ that. However, do you actually TEACH players to go after the inside pitch in this manner?

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Fence%20drill%20-%20inside%20pitches.jpg


FWIW, here's another one:
http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Jim%20Booth%20vs.%20Gonzalez.jpg

Now I know that Gonzalez is definitely standing further away from the plate than Jim. But if Jim were standing back in his normal position (relative to the plate), wouldn't the pitch he's swinging at be WAY inside?

Again, my gut instinct suggests that this drill is practicing something that we'd only need to do "by accident". Am I all wet?

[hiddengem]

Is the actual video clip (GIF, AVI, MPG, etc.) available? Believe it or not, I have this clip paused on my TV, and I took a picture of it with my digital camera. The DVD is made by MLB productions and its called Hitters on Hitting Finding the Sweet spot. I would highly reccomend it. Has a whole section on T. Williams, and has alot of great clips and swings from great hitters.


I can see very similar body positions to Jim's at this point in the swing (on this pitch, THIS TIME). Let me ask you something tho (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I genuinely am inquiring)... is this the USUAL way to hit an inside pitch? Or do you normally try to hit it out front more?

Ok, now that you understand that yes a Major League hitter might get into this position once and a while we can move forward. If you were to see the entire clip of Gwynn taking this swing, you would see that this pitch is in fact a ball off the plate inside and up, but BECAUSE he knows how to start the swing with his shoulders and keep the bat inside the ball(even though he doesn't belive he does this) he is able to keep this very tough pitch, fair.

If the purpose of this drill is to still allow a hitter to get the barrel on the ball when he's a bit late/fooled, then I can see it might help w/ that. However, do you actually TEACH players to go after the inside pitch in this manner?

The purpose of the DRILL is show how a hitter should properly stay inside the ball by OVEREMPHASIZING it but getting to a pitch up and in and in a position to KEEP IT FAIR.

This drill has nothing to do with a hitter being fooled or late. And yes I do teach my kids to go at this pitch like that, because if they can stay on a ball in this location by keeping their hands inside it and keep it fair, they will(should) have a clear understanding of how to approach other pitches in better locations.
Understand?



Now I know that Gonzalez is definitely standing further away from the plate than Jim. But if Jim were standing back in his normal position (relative to the plate), wouldn't the pitch he's swinging at be WAY inside?

Yes of course, but he's not normall going to swing at that pitch, I hope. Again for the nth time, this is a drill to teach a kid how to properly start the swing so the hands and bat stay inside the ball.

Again, my gut instinct suggests that this drill is practicing something that we'd only need to do "by accident". Am I all wet?

Thats perfectly fine, then don't use the drill. This drill is designed to show how you properly keep you hands inside the ball on the MOST difficult pitch to keep fair. If they know how to do it on this pitch and can do it like Gwynn, the other pitchers will become much more easy to keep fair, thats all.

[Jake Patterson]

I see it and I know what you are talking about.i;m not here to argue but to learn and benefit.even though booth can do the drill Im not so sure if its the right thing to teach or use for any reason.I WANT TO BELIEVE,BUT I CAN"T.:noidea

Gem does anybody use this on a pro level?

We use this as a basic hitting drill. Great for indoor practices. We use it to teach the hitters how to keep their hands inside, teaching the swing inside out. As said above, its difficult (impossible) to do if you swing with your arms. Good for kids.

Jim, your swing ain't bad for old(er) fella.... Just joking..

[MSandman]

Fair enough, HG. But as far as I can tell, the drill was never framed as "to practice how to hit up/in pitches". I thought it was being advertised as just a general good thing to do.

I guess my whole point in all of this is centered around this:
If Jim were to retake this video and stand off the same plate 6-10 inches my guess is that you would see a swing very similar to the ones you see with Troy and Nomar. Its a drill guys.
So... if Jim would still swing more like the pros when standing further back, then is that because (a) Jim has a good swing (for an ol' fart :p) or (b) because the fence/wall guided him to a good inside/out path? IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?

[hiddengem]

Fair enough, HG. But as far as I can tell, the drill was never framed as "to practice how to hit up/in pitches". I thought it was being advertised as just a general good thing to do.

I guess my whole point in all of this is centered around this:

So... if Jim would still swing more like the pros when standing further back, then is that because (a) Jim has a good swing (for an ol' fart :p) or (b) because the fence/wall guided him to a good inside/out path? IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?


For the last time, this is NOT a drill designed to learn how to specifically hit a pitch up and in. I'm not going to say to myself, today I'm going to go to the cage and work on hitting the pitch chest high on the black of the plate. If I went up to the plate looking for that pitch to hit and swinging at it, I'll be out of my uniform faster than I got into it.

The whole purpose of the drill is to learn how to keep you hands inside the ball correctly and to use rotation to get the bat head to the ball, not by starting the swing with your arms which creates a cast often times.

If you still don't understand what the drill was intended for and why you are doing it, don't do it, becuase we've beat this thing to death and if your not getting it by now, I'm afraid you might not ever get it....Not be rude, I'm just out of ways to explain it at this point. Sorry.

[MSandman]

I DO get it HG, but that doesn't mean I have to agree w/ it.

Dead horse. :p

[jbooth]

Fair enough, HG. But as far as I can tell, the drill was never framed as "to practice how to hit up/in pitches". I thought it was being advertised as just a general good thing to do.

I guess my whole point in all of this is centered around this:

So... if Jim would still swing more like the pros when standing further back, then is that because (a) Jim has a good swing (for an ol' fart :p) or (b) because the fence/wall guided him to a good inside/out path? IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?

I'm going to echo what HG said and then I'm ending the discussion.

The drill is designed to make sure you turn before moving the bat, and keep the hands close to your body while turning. That's it. Why are you making this so difficult? It's really simple.

[MSandman]

Care to answer my last question then?

[swingbuster]

Good thread...I get everybodies point of view. I can swing inside the ball like that if you let me use your bat.

Another drill can be done with the inside seam drill. Put ball on tee with laces vertical and facing backwards and hit the inside seam. THis swing IS over the plate and the mechanics are very sound.

[Ursa Major]

Sandman, you have to understand the historical genesis of Jim's "these Nyman bozos", which did not refer to you, I'm sure. He and I were kicked off Nyman's site for essentially taking the same position he is here in the face of people who, more vociferously than you, insisted that because it wasn't a "game swing" it could only teach bad mechanics.

I'll take a shot at answering your last question to Jim: "IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?" Sure, the kid could tuck his hands in and drive them straight to the pitcher without turning at all, then pulling them left and letting the bat limp through ths strike zone.

Guess what? Drill over for that kid!

Here's what I've learned from really good hitting coaches, and I include Jim/JBooth in that category. Rather than parroting drills and cues picked up from a hitting video or book to every kid, they assess his swings and deficiencies and try out drills that may work. They watch how the kid reacts and what it does to his swing. If it works, they'll stay with it for awhile. If not, they'll adjust it or drop it, or give the kids different cues.

Let me get on a small soapbox here. My point is not directed at you, MSandman. You're a bright and open-minded guy. But here goes:

The biggest obstacle to improving your coaching techniques by learning from others online is to try to naysay an idea, drill or technique out of a desire to prove another "wrong" and yourself "right", particularly if you insist that it won't work for all kids with like problems. Examine the idea, see if it might work for some kids in some circumstances, even if only for a short period in their development. Try it out on a few kids and sell it with genuine enthusiasm; they may take to it better or worse than you expected. Watch the kid to see at what point it does not help, or introduces some new problem. Try to use different cues -- if the kid's into ballet, use a ballet cue if you know an appropriate term, or a skateboarding term, or whatever cue leads to a muscle memory that will get the kid to using the right group of muscles in the right way. And, if the drill or cue has a potential ultimate downside, drop it when the initial problem being addressed is sufficiently "cured".

Obviously, practice time is limited so you'll have to perform triage and decide which of the potential drills are worth trying. But why not keep it in your bag of tricks. And, of course, if the "drill" requires Erik's $180 Instructo 500 swing trainer, well you can just forget about it for that reason. :)

[MSandman]

Sandman, you have to understand the historical genesis of Jim's "these Nyman bozos", which did not refer to you, I'm sure.
Sure sounded like he was referring to me and assumed I was a Nymanite. Heck, I do glean some useful info from him, but I'm NOT a SetPro customer, and I really can't STAND the guy's attitude.

He and I were kicked off Nyman's site for essentially taking the same position he is here in the face of people who, more vociferously than you, insisted that because it wasn't a "game swing" it could only teach bad mechanics.
Well, at least I'm not saying it has to be a game swing. :) I do find drills useful, just not this one... my opinion (which WAS, BTW, the topic of this thread! :p)

I'll take a shot at answering your last question to Jim: "IOW, if you put a kid next to the fence - 6-10" further back than Jim is - could the kid still use a very poor swing to get the bat by the fence w/o hitting it? If so, did the drill help the kid?" Sure, the kid could tuck his hands in and drive them straight to the pitcher without turning at all, then pulling them left and letting the bat limp through ths strike zone.
I believe there's another way, which I see in Jim's swing, and having done it several times today in front of my slider here in my family room: you can disconnect the arms from the torso and turn the arms/shoulders faster/more than the torso. IOW, excessively pull the the lead arm out of the way early and then just keep turning the torso. IMO, the only pitch this is good practice for is one that is extremely inside (off the plate).

I'm not trying to convince those of you who like this drill that it's not for you; simply that it's not for ME. I've also clearly articulated why I do not care for it. Let's not burn any bridges on this, as I'm sure in the future there will be plenty that we will agree on. :)

Here's what I've learned from really good hitting coaches, and I include Jim/JBooth in that category. Rather than parroting drills and cues picked up from a hitting video or book to every kid, they assess his swings and deficiencies and try out drills that may work. They watch how the kid reacts and what it does to his swing. If it works, they'll stay with it for awhile. If not, they'll adjust it or drop it, or give the kids different cues.
And what makes you think I don't do the same when I'm coaching live w/ hitters? But we're out HERE discussing coaching and hitting. And I'm sure you know that most of what we're saying has been said a million times before us (maybe not on the 'net, but in person). So, whether I say "connection" or someone else says "knob to the pitcher" or "inside the ball" or whatever else, we're really ALL "parroting", aren't we? :D

The biggest obstacle to improving your coaching techniques by learning from others online is to try to naysay an idea, drill or technique out of a desire to prove another "wrong" and yourself "right", particularly if you insist that it won't work for all kids with like problems.

But wasn't that the whole point of this thread? Didn't someone ask "What do you think of this drill?"??? :crazy So, because I happen to fall on the minority side of this drill, I'M the bad guy and the only one trying to "be right"? C'mon.

Obviously, practice time is limited so you'll have to perform triage and decide which of the potential drills are worth trying. But why not keep it in your bag of tricks. And, of course, if the "drill" requires Erik's $180 Instructo 500 swing trainer, well you can just forget about it for that reason. :)
Yes, I feel the deja vu too. :laugh

[Ursa Major]

Sure sounded like he was referring to me and assumed I was a Nymanite. Heck, I do glean some useful info from him, but I'm NOT a SetPro customer, and I really can't STAND the guy's attitude. No, you're not a Nymanite. We can smell 'em, even if the herd is dwindling. And if Jim wanted to dis you, he would've come right out and done so. I believe there's another way, which I see in Jim's swing, and having done it several times today in front of my slider here in my family room: you can disconnect the arms from the torso and turn the arms/shoulders faster/more than the torso. IOW, excessively pull the the lead arm out of the way early and then just keep turning the torso. IMO, the only pitch this is good practice for is one that is extremely inside (off the plate).You wanna debate how many ways one can make a lousy swing?? :confused: I certainly wasn't saying my idea was the only one. And you did the fence drill inside in front of your slider? With what kind of bat? If you fribbitz up your swing, well... you need a couch to sleep on somewhere when the spouse finds the damage? :) And what makes you think I don't do the same when I'm coaching live w/ hitters? But we're out HERE discussing coaching and hitting. And I'm sure you know that most of what we're saying has been said a million times before us (maybe not on the 'net, but in person). So, whether I say "connection" or someone else says "knob to the pitcher" or "inside the ball" or whatever else, we're really ALL "parroting", aren't we?I expressly excluded you from my accusation. I have every reason to believe you're one of those who assesses each kid on his own terms and adjusts your coaching accordingly. I was just worried that the thread was drifting toward people trying to "win" the argument. Or that people were worrying about whether an attempt to probe their opinion was a personal attack (or was making someone the bad guy). My point was simply to say that rather than trying to pigeonhole something as "good drill" or "bad drill" (say those four words together five times quickly), we all learn better if we see if there's some circumstance in which it might have a benefit. Drills, unlike Erik's Instructo, are free, right? (Except for the time you waste learning them...) I agree that the drill has minimal utility, as I've said. Who knows, maybe you can win a bar bet with it, betting someone a beer that you can stand next to a wall with a rolled up magazine and blast a shot glass on a wall sconce across the room without touching the wall! :coffee Didn't someone ask "What do you think of this drill?"??? So, because I happen to fall on the minority side of this drill, I'M the bad guy and the only one trying to "be right"? C'mon.I'm only trying to be "right" when I learn from everyone else, find the whole grail of hitting and shout, "Eureka!" I don't have to be in the same spot in which I started to do so. I used to be a bigger believer in the fence drill and the Nymanites' analysis largely turned me against it.

All anyone asks is that people who come in here and keep an open mind. If I think that the fence drill would be a good ten minute drill on the second or third day of spring practice to remind kids to keep their hands back, I'm open to you saying, "No, even then kids will develop a bad disconnect of their hands that outweighs the benefits," or, "Here's a better drill or device to impress upon them to keep their hands back and it doesn't encourage 'cheating'." I then may realize it's a dumb drill all the way around.
That would be cool and really would make you the good guy!

[hiddengem]

I DO get it HG, but that doesn't mean I have to agree w/ it.

Dead horse. :p


If you don't agree with this drill to try and teach your kids how to keep their hands inside the ball correctly and turn their hips and torso before the bat head, WHAT drill would you suggest to teach a kid to properly do that?

[jsiggy]

I'm 6 feet tall and I can stand with my toes 20 inches from the fence, take a normal swing and not hit the fence.

It's a DRILL!!! Drills are designed to give the athlete a "feeling" of what needs to be done.

The f--ing drill doesn't have to be a picture perfect swing. The DRILL...

The problem is the above two quotes don't add up: "take a normal swing" and "it's just a f--ing drill".

What these Nyman Bozos can't understand is that the DRILL is teaching you to not disconnect EARLY and/or AWAY from the body.

Actually I think the "Nyman Bozos", as you guys continually classify them, are pretty bright and understood that quite clearly. The problems that they listed quite clearly and that I have with this drill are:

encouraging rather severe disconnection from middle-to-end of the swing. They preferred teaching rotating the box as a unit through the entire swing rather than connected early and then disconnecting at the end as most do with this drill (including your swing)
improper goal (miss the fence rather than stay connected) which is huge for kids. You miss the fence largely by keeping the hands in tight. Keeping the hands in tight can be accomplished by maintaining a proper box... it can also be accomplished in other less efficient manners.


The drill teaches staying in with the hands, and rotating the bat with the shoulders.

And is effective for the early part of the swing. If you have a kid that is casting, it could help as it can give them a feel for staying connected early on. But again, past the point of the max bat lag position, it encourages disconnection of the hands and/or front shoulder - at least in those I've used it with.

[jsiggy]

A couple of example drills I would prefer:


Take tophand thumb and hook to shirt a little above and outside backside nipple. Normal swing (releasing the shirt will happen naturally).
Use a heavy object instead of bat - medicine ball or cable with resistance attached to wall. Also, very good for removing extra slop that creeps during the launch of a swing.
Buster's drill above is also better IMO. (Did I just agree with Buster??)

[Ursa Major]

jsiggy said: A couple of example drills I would prefer:

Take tophand thumb and hook to shirt a little above and outside backside nipple. Normal swing (releasing the shirt will happen naturally).
Use a heavy object instead of bat - medicine ball or cable with resistance attached to wall. Also, very good for removing extra slop that creeps during the launch of a swing.
Buster's drill above is also better IMO. (Did I just agree with Buster??) jsiggy Thanks, Sig. Very positive suggestions. I've been using the shirt grab idea ever since I saw you post it at H-M.O. It certainly imparts to the kids in a very visual and visceral way the need to stay connected, and also helps 'em learn that the top hand is better off starting loose (so that it's free to slide under the handle so that the palm ends up facing up).

In drill #2, what do the kids grip onto? Does it make any difference?

As to Buster's drill, I've been very hesitant to suggest anything to kids that sounds like a "hit inside the ball" cue, because I'm worried that they'll deaden their hands before impact to do so. Dead hands are a big problem with the 12-and-under-set, because they often slow the hands to "aim" the bathead at the ball. Anybody share that worry?

[jsiggy]

Thanks, Sig. Very positive suggestions. I've been using the shirt grab idea ever since I saw you post it at H-M.O. It certainly imparts to the kids in a very visual and visceral way the need to stay connected, and also helps 'em learn that the top hand is better off starting loose (so that it's free to slide under the handle so that the palm ends up facing up).


Nice to hear it's been useful. However I'm pretty sure I got it from one of those "Nyman Bozos" as you and Jim say. :eek:


In drill #2, what do the kids grip onto? Does it make any difference?


Grip? I guess you mean on the cable drill? With the medicine ball you just hold it and turn (and preferably throw if you have place to throw it).

For the 'cable' version, visually think of taking hold of a rope handle on a lat pull/tricep extension machine with some weight on it and launching the swing. One of Nyman's forums had someone post a very nice image of Manny's swing attached to a weight stack if you've seen that? I've tried it using several extra heavy duty bungies (double them up for more resistance) to the corner of the wall and ceiling. The resistance hopefully helps them understand:


to use the stronger muscles of the middle
to feel the weak position of the arms if they get away from the body
that they are stronger if they properly load the middle



As to Buster's drill, I've been very hesitant to suggest anything to kids that sounds like a "hit inside the ball" cue, because I'm worried that they'll deaden their hands before impact to do so. Dead hands are a big problem with the 12-and-under-set, because they often slow the hands to "aim" the bathead at the ball. Anybody share that worry?

Good point.

Okay I don't like it either. :p

[hiddengem]

Good thread...I get everybodies point of view. I can swing inside the ball like that if you let me use your bat.

Another drill can be done with the inside seam drill. Put ball on tee with laces vertical and facing backwards and hit the inside seam. THis swing IS over the plate and the mechanics are very sound.


I've been using that for a long time..Works great and I don't recall experiencing dead hands, but I do see how that occur.

[swingbuster]

URSA

What is a little more important than these drills is the preswing action that can be used that is REALLY important as to the bat path. IT must be taught and then apply the swing to the drill. I don't think the fence feedback leads to the correct conclusions about how to load. It is kind of like a magic trick...or can you do this thing and that maybe gets their attention.

I have had casting kids that you can force through this drill but did not have a clue how to stop casting when you move the fence.

The loading pattern effects the circular path that gets the barrel inside at the right time and out in the zone at the correct time in the rotation.

IOWS , for the sake of illustration ; if you just consider the bat barrel...it should leave the 45 slot , go to splitting the helmet or more and return to the launch slot in a certain timing with the rotation. The bat returning to the 45 slot and hands turning back over in the pitch plane accelerates the barrel back/in and backwards in a circle away from the batter...into the circle of the swing path. This exerts a back and in force that the hips rotate against. This preswing pattern is what gets the bat on an inside out path in concert with the hip turn not the fence. The shoulder and elbow action that makes this happen is a subject for another thread maybe

So if the fence is the "training aid" or the "Enforcer" as Mike E calls it and I can accept that...it is no better than the coach teaching its signicance and as always the devil is in the details. This is true for all training aids.

The most teachable part of the swing is not the true swing itself...it is the proper loading action in the PRESWING. If this is wrong then nothing else matters then evrything that follows is wrong.

The movement pattern and the proper muscle groups activated and elastic energy and the direction of the forces applied dynamically and in sequence must be understood. Then they can best be applied by the mainatanence of the box created through the early part of the rotation as the forces work in the proper sequence. If the lead arm starts bent it must remain bent well into the rotation then the bat barrel will come out effortlessly and at the right time and miss the fence IF YOUR NO UNREASONABLY CLOSE

When we teach any part of the true swing with any method that skips vital preswing elements even if they are reduced to a very subtle level we are using bandaids and compensations....a drill is effective when its reason to exist is understood and when used by a guy that knows the swing mechanics. The average newbie, while doing what he must do to learn , will be going through the motions of the drill and missing much of the relevancy and most of the key elements of the swing.

Paint me into that picture 10 years ago........start your journey with an open mind and study

[MSandman]

I've been using that for a long time..Works great and I don't recall experiencing dead hands, but I do see how that occur.

I only have a couple mins. this morning before getting ready for work (I was home yesterday w/ a sick son), but I did want to answer Ursa's question about what drill I'd use... it's the same one as swingbuster's, except I tell the kids to imagine a clock on the ball (6:00 facing them). Then I tell them to hit between 4 and 5:00.

I'll try to get back to this tonight.

Have a good day.

[wogdoggy]

what started off into what was lookin like a pi$$enn match match this thread has almost turned into something useful.:clapping :gt

[jbooth]

....a drill is effective when its reason to exist is understood and when used by a guy that knows the swing mechanics. The average newbie, while doing what he must do to learn, will be going through the motions of the drill and missing much of the relevancy and most of the key elements of the swing.

Amen to that.

One needs to understand WHAT is trying to be accomplished, and WHY, before any drill will be effective. It doesn't do any good to put a student through a drill until you first explain to him why he is doing it, and what he should be trying to learn.

[Ursa Major]

I've been using that [inside seam drill] for a long time.Works great and I don't recall experiencing dead hands, but I do see how that occur.My concern was about younger kids -- mostly up to about age 11. And, I'd worry that kids might draw their hands in at the end of their swing, like JBooth is accused of doing in his fence drill.
******<WAR STORY>*****
We had a kid a couple of years ago who was a phenomenal athlete and player, but couldn't hit a fair ball hard to save his soul. I was dying to tell him to use the basketball drill (put a deflated basketball on an orange roadcrew cone and make him hit through it), but I was only a team Dad then and his grandfather was one of the coaches (mostly so they could get the kid on his team) and he was crusty and not open to suggestion. He'd hit the longest dang fouls down the right field line 'cuz he would just stop everything before contact. Finally, in the last game of an otherwise forgettable season, with the team down 5-1 in the bottom of the last inning, we ralled for two and loaded the bases. He came up and did it again -- long fly down the right field line. This time, it landed fair by a foot and he cleared the bases for the win.

Next season he moved to a different team and we all nodded and motioned everyone to play him to hit to right again. Got some coaching during the off season, I guess, and cracked one down the third base line, and later hit a blast to center, and he's now one of the league's stars. (Parental modesty prevents me from noting that my son threw him out from third base on the first hit and caught the deep fly to center the last time; that's just why I remember it.) I think the difference was that his father started coaching him the second year and had a leg up on Grandpa's coaching techniques.

[MSandman]

My concern was about younger kids -- mostly up to about age 11. And, I'd worry that kids might draw their hands in at the end of their swing, like JBooth is accused of doing in his fence drill.

Good point. That's why I like to do the drill (when possible) on a field so that if the ball slices, it's a good chance they pulled in late.

[tominct]

OK, whats the Buster drill? Is it something you've seen on Arthur? (A nice PBS cartoon for kids for those wondering!)

[jsiggy]

OK, whats the Buster drill? Is it something you've seen on Arthur? (A nice PBS cartoon for kids for those wondering!)

Buster as in Swingbuster... see post #41 of this thread for the drill.

[hiddengem]

Just to beat this horse one last time to make sure its dead, I did the fence drill with a lesson I had tonight. I haven't used it in quite some time but this kid could not get the feel as to how to rotate his shoulders without casting his hands. Didn't matter where the pitch was, he was around the ball.

So off to the side of the cage we went. 5 swings or so, and bam, hit the net everytime. I stood in the exact same spot and swung the bat no problem without hitting the net. He watched, and I showed him how your chest can just about be facing forwards and the bat head still be pointing at the catcher and then the hands and barrell come through. Tilt over a bit and rotate.

A few more swings, and bang, he figured it out. 5 swings in a row without hitting the net. So he jumps back in the box, and I swear it was like a new hitter just entered my cage. This kids face lit up like a christmas tree as squared up a pitch on the inside corner, that would have stayed fair.

From then on, he was inside the ball on pretty much every kind of pitch. Obviously he would stray a few times, but I'm convinced the fence "Drill" helped this kid undertand how you avoid casting the bat.

Ok, its dead.

[Ursa Major]

A few more swings, and bang, he figured it out. 5 swings in a row without hitting the net. So he jumps back in the box, and I swear it was like a new hitter just entered my cage. This kids face lit up like a christmas tree as squared up a pitch on the inside corner, that would have stayed fair.:clapping Good coaching, HG! So, under what circumstances and for how long would you anticipate using the drill further with him? Do you tell him to go ahead and try it at home? Tell his Dad/coach what you did and suggest they use it only if he's casting again?
Ok, its dead.Nope, you've just resuscitated it, Dr. Frankenstein. ~~~The fence drill lives~!~~~

[MSandman]

I was willing to let it die, but... :)

... just because he hit the ball well after the drill, does that necessarily mean his path was now "inside/out"?

Without film, how do you know that he just didn't make contact (on the inside pitch) further out front? :D

[Ohfor]

The analytical skills and logic displayed on this board are elementary, immature and damaging to young kids and their dads.

[hiddengem]

The analytical skills and logic displayed on this board are elementary, immature and damaging to young kids and their dads.

Who is this being directed at?

[hiddengem]

:clapping Good coaching, HG! So, under what circumstances and for how long would you anticipate using the drill further with him? Do you tell him to go ahead and try it at home? Tell his Dad/coach what you did and suggest they use it only if he's casting again?
Nope, you've just resuscitated it, Dr. Frankenstein. ~~~The fence drill lives~!~~~


Well, I don't know. We did have to stop a couple of times and do again so he would get the "feel" again. I'm hoping by the next couple of lessons or so, his muscle memory will take over.

I told him to go home and get next to his sliding glass window and work on the drill:D

His coach has been pretty "aware" and understanding of what we are trying to accomplish with his team, so I think he will be able to help this kid away from me.

[hiddengem]

I was willing to let it die, but... :)

... just because he hit the ball well after the drill, does that necessarily mean his path was now "inside/out"?

Without film, how do you know that he just didn't make contact (on the inside pitch) further out front? :D


I guess its entirely possible that I can decipher better than you, when a person hits the ball out in front and "around" the ball versus hitting the ball out in front and "inside" the ball.

I don't need film to tell the difference.

[jbooth]

Just to beat this horse one last time to make sure its dead, I did the fence drill with a lesson I had tonight. I haven't used it in quite some time but this kid could not get the feel as to how to rotate his shoulders without casting his hands. Didn't matter where the pitch was, he was around the ball.

So off to the side of the cage we went. 5 swings or so, and bam, hit the net everytime. I stood in the exact same spot and swung the bat no problem without hitting the net. He watched, and I showed him how your chest can just about be facing forwards and the bat head still be pointing at the catcher and then the hands and barrell come through. Tilt over a bit and rotate.

A few more swings, and bang, he figured it out. 5 swings in a row without hitting the net. So he jumps back in the box, and I swear it was like a new hitter just entered my cage. This kids face lit up like a christmas tree as squared up a pitch on the inside corner, that would have stayed fair.

From then on, he was inside the ball on pretty much every kind of pitch. Obviously he would stray a few times, but I'm convinced the fence "Drill" helped this kid undertand how you avoid casting the bat.

Ok, its dead.

Interesting. I had the EXACT same experience last night with a 10 year old student. He was on his second lesson with me, and we had worked on rotation and turning the box, etc, but he kept letting the bat get away from his body, and was casting a little bit. Mostly just letting his hands get out in too long of an arc.

I put him at the fence and made him keep the bat on the outside shoulder and just turn. Same result as you. Wide eyed look after a couple successful swings at not hitting the fence. Light bulb went off, so we left the fence and moved on. I've had this experience many times and I mentioned it on Nyman's site a few months back, and they all pooh-pooh'ed it.

I don't like to put the kids extremely close to the fence like Epstein recommends, and I don't recommend an adult get as close as I was in the video clip I posted. I posted that clip simply to prove to those who don't think you can get that close and still swing without hitting the fence, that they are wrong.

[hiddengem]

I've had this experience many times and I mentioned it on Nyman's site a few months back, and they all pooh-pooh'ed it.

Why does this not suprise me. And it would have been "extra" pooh-pooh'ed if it had come from a player that has professional experience, since we all live in a clouded world of inadequecy according to Nyman.

I don't like to put the kids extremely close to the fence like Epstein recommends, and I don't recommend an adult get as close as I was in the video clip I posted. I posted that clip simply to prove to those who don't think you can get that close and still swing without hitting the fence, that they are wrong.

I don't like them to get to close either. I want them to be able to hit a ball on the inner 3rd of the plate in "their" correct distance from the plate. If they get there the wrong way, they will hit the net, if not, they won't. Its simple.

[MSandman]

I told him to go home and get next to his sliding glass window and work on the drill:D

FWIW, I was using a SwiftStik and could do it at full speed (after a couple warmups). I still wouldn't want to swing that way tho. :D

[MSandman]

I guess its entirely possible that I can decipher better than you, when a person hits the ball out in front and "around" the ball versus hitting the ball out in front and "inside" the ball.

I don't need film to tell the difference.

Maybe you don't need film to see the difference. Who knows?

Then why not take this opportunity to shut me up and prove it? ;)

Film the kid before, during and after the fence drill (from behind the plate). Make sure he's swinging at the same pitch locations.

Obviously, proving this to me has absolutely no bearing on your coaching. But it might help bring some closure to the original poster's question about the usefulness of this drill.

Believe it or not, I may be stubborn, but I'm not too proud to admit I'm wrong once proven so. ;)

[hiddengem]

Maybe you don't need film to see the difference. Who knows? I don't..I've probably given 1,500+ lessons in my life. I use video on occasion, and its usually to show the lesson what I'm talking about.

Then why not take this opportunity to shut me up and prove it? ;)
I'm not here to prove anybody wrong. I'm here to offer my help and experience. I and many others have given you more than enough information as to why this drill works and if you still don't understand, then its just too much for you.


Believe it or not, I may be stubborn, but I'm not too proud to admit I'm wrong once proven so. ;)

I don't think you are stubborn, I'm not convinced you fully understand and can apply what we are telling you. Thats not to try and put you down, its just what I think.

[MSandman]

Trust me... I fully understand everything you've said. I just don't agree w/ all of it w/o seeing it.

Doubting Thomas :waving

[hiddengem]

Trust me... I fully understand everything you've said. I just don't agree w/ all of it w/o seeing it.

Doubting Thomas :waving

I'm fine with that. I'll go on using it, and you won't. Simple as that.

[jsiggy]

Originally Posted by MSandman
Maybe you don't need film to see the difference. Who knows?
I don't..I've probably given 1,500+ lessons in my life. I use video on occasion, and its usually to show the lesson what I'm talking about.

I have no doubt that you can probably catch a lot more stuff than most of us - especially me with my old eyes. But I don't buy that you don't miss things that reviewing video would help you with.

I first got hooked on video when trying to fix a flaw in my kid's swing. When reviewing video, I would hear my comments and then compare against what actually happened. It was incredible the number of times I was wrong. I had been a martial arts instructor for over 10 years - and so that made me nervous about what else I saw wrong! Seems a well hit ball or solid sound of the bat somehow sneaks in between what the eyes see and confuses the brain!)

So I began comparing video of what other coaches were saying compared to what was really happening. And I found they were every bit as inaccurate as I was. Including the ex-MLBer who lives across town and a current MLB hitting coach who I video'd at a seminar (actually the hitting coach was better than most, but still missed at least 1/2 the time).

Again I'm not saying you're not better at this than the others I've seen. I am saying if you haven't already, use video to prove to yourself you're as accurate as you think you are.

And I am definitely saying to other coaches/dads, trust video over what you think you're seeing.

[hiddengem]

I have no doubt that you can probably catch a lot more stuff than most of us - especially me with my old eyes. But I don't buy that you don't miss things that reviewing video would help you with.

I first got hooked on video when trying to fix a flaw in my kid's swing. When reviewing video, I would hear my comments and then compare against what actually happened. It was incredible the number of times I was wrong. I had been a martial arts instructor for over 10 years - and so that made me nervous about what else I saw wrong! Seems a well hit ball or solid sound of the bat somehow sneaks in between what the eyes see and confuses the brain!)

So I began comparing video of what other coaches were saying compared to what was really happening. And I found they were every bit as inaccurate as I was. Including the ex-MLBer who lives across town and a current MLB hitting coach who I video'd at a seminar (actually the hitting coach was better than most, but still missed at least 1/2 the time).

Again I'm not saying you're not better at this than the others I've seen. I am saying if you haven't already, use video to prove to yourself you're as accurate as you think you are.

And I am definitely saying to other coaches/dads, trust video over what you think you're seeing.

Again..I didn't say I "never" look at video. It seems that a great majority of my lesson market lies with young kids. I don't need video for these kids, I can plainly see what they are doing wrong. The times I will break out the video is with my high school kids, Those are the ones where they often times do things that are tough to see with the naked eye, and it helps to be able to slow things down and compare that to what you think you are seeing.

For instance, I've got a kid right now that is a Hall of Fame Batting practice hitter. He'll make parents stop and watch every time. BUT, get him in a game situation over the course of a season, and he's a ground ball, singles type of hitter.
Well, the problem is, he has been working with an instructor for about 7yrs that teaches the "down swing". When you get him in a cage flipping front toss at 5mph, his hand eye cordination can put him in a position where he can slice the ball off the back net. Get him in a game, ground balls and weak fly balls to right. Nothing driven.

So I got him on video and showed him that his hands start just off his back shoulder and the path they take is one that goes out a bit and down to his front thigh and then back up. The classic "out and down swing". His hands never level out after the initial arc, and with that swing he will be a low slugging% hitter and not hit many homeruns. All of which has been true over his high school playing career.

Since that time, not only have I convinced him but I've changed his "old" instructors views as well.

[jsiggy]

Again..I didn't say I "never" look at video.


You're right you didn't and I didn't say you did say that.

My point was to that you (plural for anyone coaching a kid, not you personally) should use it at least infrequently, preferably much more, to make sure what you think you see is what is happening.

It seems that a great majority of my lesson market lies with young kids. I don't need video for these kids, I can plainly see what they are doing wrong.


Agree that a young or new hitter's flaws can usually be picked up with just the eye. Even so, I use video as much as I can... ALWAYS if the hitter is new to me. Often though I (correctly) see one flaw, I find I missed something else that it is actually causing the problem earlier in the swing.


The times I will break out the video is with my high school kids, Those are the ones where they often times do things that are tough to see with the naked eye, and it helps to be able to slow things down and compare that to what you think you are seeing.


Agree that video is more valuable & necessary the better the hitter is.

[Ursa Major]

It amazes me how few youth coaches will make use of video. For the past three years, I've taken videos of my son and his teammates, cropped them down (so a coach can see a kid swing 15 times in a 40 second clip), and then offered my observations. Yet, I almost never see the coaches approach the kid based on what the coach can see, much less what my observations are. My son's 9 year old coach gently said, "Your analysis might be a little too advanced for these kids." Well, yeah, but you can at least work on one or two of the flaws rather than let them flail. (And to this day, his own son -- a marvelous athlete in all other sports -- is a mediocre, arms-only hitter.)

Even for obvious flaws with young kids, the core problem may be layers deep, so confronting the obvious symptom doesn't get to the heart of it. The kid with dead hands may be rotating too soon or not rotating vigorously enough. Or, a kid missing the ball may seem to be pulling his head, when the real problem is straightening his spine.

The uses of game video are numerous, if no reason other than that you don't have the repetition of practice swings to help see the flaw for sure. Sometimes kids are in denial -- "whaddya mean? I'm not stepping into the bucket!" Boom... busted. Or kids may change their swings during the course of the season and you don't pick it up without video. (One kid started raising his front elbow so much he looked like Dracula holding his cape before his face.) His dad seemed dubious until I shipped him a short video clip, and then he went to the coach and had 'em work on it. His hitting improved, although I won't take credit without knowing more.)

Sometimes videos can tell you what kids are doing right. We had one kid last year who regularly cranked the ball but I couldn't tell why -- he had his elbows well away from his body and some bat droop, and seemed to swing mostly with his arms. After looking at game video, I realized he maintained decent connection even with his arms away from his body and had good rotation, and even a terrific natural "fishhook" at the end of his swing. So, that helped focus on what he could do to improve his swing while leaving his natural good points alone.

[jsiggy]

UM, nice post. I agree wholeheartedly.

[Jake Patterson]

UM, nice post. I agree wholeheartedly.

Ditto *****