More Crisp/Boston rumors

[BoofBonser26]

The Coco Crisp trade rumors have flared up again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2301457

I really can't see this making any sense for the Tribe.

[BoofBonser26]

Still not a done deal, but now MLB.com has an article:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060122&content_id=1299179&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Here's their version:

CLE to BOS
Coco Crisp

BOS to CLE
Andy Marte
Guillermo Mota

CLE to PHI
Rhodes or Bentancourt

PHI to CLE
Jason Michaels


I suppose I'm happier with the Boston part of this deal IF Marte's good enough to solve the 3B problem. What does anyone know about him?

Mota would replace the reliever lost to the Phillies to get Michaels. He'd be a huge downgrade from Crisp (never even been an everyday player).

This looks like Classic Shapiro-a trade we all hate him for now, will love him for in the future. At least I hope.

Because Crisp is in his prime...

[TOPPS]

Yeah this possible trade has already made me mad. About Marte well he is a highly regarded prospect. According to Sports Weekly he is the top hitting prospect for the Red Sox. They said this about him "power is the top component of his offensive game and, though he will probably never develop into a consistant .300 hitter. Marte has steadily improved his selectivity at the plate. he's a good defender with a strong arm and, most of all, at 22." He sounds good but to be honest with everyone i dont agree with the deal. The Sizemore and Crisp at the top of the order is the best in the league.

[cavalier1968]

Hey Boof,

I with ya, Coco is a nice player and perhaps hitting his peak right now.......

I heard about Marte for about a year now......the Brave were VERY high on him but traded him, so.......here is a snipped of him in 2004.......

http://www.bravesbeat.com/bravesjournal/archives/2004/08/who_is_andy_mar.html


Broadly speaking, Marte has "classical" third-baseman skills of the Mathews/Schmidt type. He's not going to be a .300 hitter, at least not normally. He's hitting .275 this year in Greenville, hit .285 last year, and .281 in 2002. (To compare, Mathews' career BA was .271, his career high .306, and he hit .300 three times in his career. Schmidt hit .316 once but his next-best year was .293.)

What Andy brings to the table, already at his young age, is power. Despite missing a lot of time -- about 100 plate appearances worth -- with his ankle injury he still leads the team in homers with 18, and he's second in doubles with 24. His isolated power (a number of statistical analysts are pushing this as a good indicator for minor leaguers these days) is .279. (That's actually down a little, but still impressive. JD Drew's isolated power is .276.)

Fielding? While still rather raw, he has promise there as well. Baseball America rates him the best defensive third baseman in the Southern League, with the best infield arm. He's made 13 errors this year, which certainly isn't a ridiculously high number.

So what we have in the making is a slugging third baseman with a good glove. Mathews and Schmidt represent the best of this class; other retired members would be Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, Gary Gaetti, Ron Santo, etc. What will eventually decide how good a major leaguer Marte becomes is his walk rate. He's got a pretty good one in the minors so far, but it's not outstanding, and there's been a tendency for Braves prospects to lose some of their walks when they reach the majors. (Rafael Furcal is probably the most spectacular example, but also Marcus Giles, Andruw Jones among the top players; Adam LaRoche and Nick Green have suffered similar fates this year.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like Coco, hes not perfect, He should walk more........and perhaps steal more...he did bat 300 last year.........Marte seems to be a rare player.....He was the Braves top prospect last year......

CAv

[sschirmer]

I'm not too sure about this deal. I was dead set against it at first, then I got to thinking about Mota in the set-up role. That made me feel a bit better. Now I see the Philly part of this deal, and it just doesn't sound too good again. Being up in Cleveland this weekend, and listening to 850am quite a bit, I have to say, I'm not too sure why they are getting a prospect at this point for a guy who can help them right now. I guess Coco asking for 3mil in arbitration has a lot to do with it, but as close as they came last year, I really would like to see them take the "tomorrow is now" approach.

[pronk48]

I have answered numerous people who asked me about the possible trade and everytime i think about it, it pisses me off. Ill be the first to admit crisp was my first favorite new guy when they began rebuilding but i feel there has always been a conspiracy to end his time prematurely in cleveland. I think of when they tried replacing him w Escobar in 04 which failed miserably and then crisp performed awesome when he earned the everyday spot. They never really gave him a set role. It looked like he was the new leadoff hitter until the offense sucked in 05 but it finally looked like he found his spot when Grady took leadoff and Crisp batting 2. I know there might be some pulling from crisp to get out of grady's shadow b/c crisp will be leadoff hitter and center fielder in Boston but the Indians need to get more because trading for Mota then trading a reliever for Micheals is moving them backward. You can ask 'Last of the Indians fans' but I have always supported Shapiro's moves including not resigning Thome and Vizquel and the Colon trade but I fail to see the benefit to Cleveland. GO Tribe 69 days till opening day.

[sschirmer]

Pronk, I totally agree with you on the Michaels front. Noway in Hell that move helps us this year. The only explanation for all this is economics. Coco was a bargain at $365K last year, but at $3mil, Dolan probably doesn't want to keep him around.

[RuthMayBond]

There's already a Coco Crisp promotion scheduled this year

[BoofBonser26]

Here's the thread from the Red Sox forum:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=463363&posted=1#post463363

The latest version of the deal I read in the PD has it being Crisp, Bard, and Riske to the BoSox.

I officially hate this trade.

[moebarguy]

This trade really makes no sense at all for the Indians. While Marte is a young prospect at 22, Crisp is already proven at age 26. Crisp is a very good defensive player, and he's an excellent top-of-the-lineup hitter -- not to mention that he's a switch hitter. While Marte has displayed impressive power numbers in the minors, he could very well turn out to be a Russ Branyan type -- HR or K.

[sschirmer]

The more I think about it, the more I believe this trade is driven by economics.

[Last of the Indian fans]

This trade really makes no sense at all for the Indians. While Marte is a young prospect at 22, Crisp is already proven at age 26. Crisp is a very good defensive player, and he's an excellent top-of-the-lineup hitter -- not to mention that he's a switch hitter. While Marte has displayed impressive power numbers in the minors, he could very well turn out to be a Russ Branyan type -- HR or K.


Branyan, could be a god send, from what u guys are saying he could be rob deer. This crisp trade sounds terrible... Saturday the PD reported that jason michaels was arrested for assaulton on a police officer... that would be great to have...

no need to get rid of crisp...

u want to deal focus in on bard and rhodes (i guess betancourt). Rhodes another year older had some problems missed a month of the season, u do have matt miller, graves?, karsay?, sauerbeck, cabrerra, wickman, davis, riske or betancourt depending on who u choose to keep... that is still solid, without mota. I would like to see bard get moved just becuase i am josh bard fan, I think he can be a very good catcher but the organization obviously wants martinez and a veteran behind, (hopefully laker) so i would like to see him get moved just so he can play everyday or in a few years, he is a good defensive catcher and is smart.

hollandsworth, not the answer... (he is no marty cordova)
blake temporary answer (unfortunately)
guitierrez not ready...

Swallow some pride keep crisp, dish bard and find a way to replace blake, because perez/broussard are making the way garko could be great! (just like gatorade, red bull, and vodka)

[BoofBonser26]

Mota failed his physical.

Let the deal die...

[sschirmer]

As mentioned on another thread, they are now looking for other options. I'm getting pissed, I want this deal to die, and die quick.

[runningshoes]

I'm about 13,000 miles away and I can smell the rage. :laugh

[pronk48]

I'm about 13,000 miles away and I can smell the rage. :laugh

I notice you r a red sox fan and im not happy that u might b getting crisp but i dont feel he will succeed otta cleveland.

1)Recent history has shown cleveland stars dont succeed outta cleveland. (Belle, Lofton, Thome, Bradley, both Alomars, Baerga, soon to be Millwood) There are rare exceptions like Ramirez and Vizquel but for the most part players peak in Cleveland. I dont know maybe its something in the water.

2) We tried crisp as a leadoff hitter and he seemed to balk at the challenge. he underperformed and subsequenty did not provide the boost needed that Sizemore did. He's an ok center fielder but like Damon does not have an arm. He may buckle under the pressure of beating the Yankees 19 times a year. Hes not like manny where hes too dumb to realize there are people watching. Im not saying he wont but i feel he wont live up to the expectations that damon left or what Boston wants.

with that said i tend to like this trade if the indians can get the 3 prospects that have been promised. where did Boston get 3 of the top ten prospects and why hasnt anyone talked about that


what i dont like is that everyone on the Boston forum and even some of the yankees guys talking on the boston forum feel this is a steal. it is a steal unless we pull off a developed player. Shapiro we need players not prosects damn it

[RuthMayBond]

I notice you r a red sox fan and im not happy that u might b getting crisp but i dont feel he will succeed otta cleveland.

1)Recent history has shown cleveland stars dont succeed outta cleveland. (Belle, Lofton, Thome, Bradley, both Alomars, Baerga, soon to be Millwood) There are rare exceptions like Ramirez and Vizquel but for the most part players peak in Cleveland. I dont know maybe its something in the water.

Belle had an MVP-type year in '98, Lofton was better in '02 & '03 than '01, Bradley's '03 was a one-year fluke, Sandy was getting beat up, Baerga started stinking in early '96, Millwood was in a contract year.

[charleston wahoo]

i'm with everyone else. although the trade makes sense for the future, seeing how coco will always be a very good player, and Marte has the potential to be in "great" catagorie, we tasted too much of the wine lat year to put the bottle down. i too have agreed with the majority of the deals this front office has made the last couple of years, but the idea of grady and coco at the top of the lineup is top tier in the league, w/o question. mota is a plug, the other kid we have no idea about, and we've took a helluva hit already in the pen.
lets quit dickn around and take the field. go tribe

[runningshoes]

I notice you r a red sox fan and im not happy that u might b getting crisp but i dont feel he will succeed otta cleveland.

Please use king's good English; we're not sending text messages on a cell phone. :laugh

1)Recent history has shown cleveland stars dont succeed outta cleveland. (Belle, Lofton, Thome, Bradley, both Alomars, Baerga, soon to be Millwood) There are rare exceptions like Ramirez and Vizquel but for the most part players peak in Cleveland. I dont know maybe its something in the water.

I'm a cynic, but I'm not a fatalist; you'd think those guys could have afford bottled water.

2) We tried crisp as a leadoff hitter and he seemed to balk at the challenge. he underperformed and subsequenty did not provide the boost needed that Sizemore did.

You would be surprised what a change of scenery can do. Has he had problems with the team in the past? I think it was schirmerr said this doesn't look like it's an economically driven deal. Maybe they just want him out of there.

[TOPPS]

I notice you r a red sox fan and im not happy that u might b getting crisp but i dont feel he will succeed otta cleveland.

1)Recent history has shown cleveland stars dont succeed outta cleveland. (Belle, Lofton, Thome, Bradley, both Alomars, Baerga, soon to be Millwood) There are rare exceptions like Ramirez and Vizquel but for the most part players peak in Cleveland. I dont know maybe its something in the water.

Well Lofton as we all should know is a catalyst for teams and he did very well last year his avg was .335 with 22 sb's and Baerga did very well in 03' he hit .343. I relize that Baerga on had a little over 200 ab's but still he did very good.

[BoofBonser26]

Take any team in the majors, and you can create a list like that.

[Last of the Indian fans]

I notice you r a red sox fan and im not happy that u might b getting crisp but i dont feel he will succeed otta cleveland.

1)Recent history has shown cleveland stars dont succeed outta cleveland. (Belle, Lofton, Thome, Bradley, both Alomars, Baerga, soon to be Millwood) There are rare exceptions like Ramirez and Vizquel but for the most part players peak in Cleveland. I dont know maybe its something in the water.

2) We tried crisp as a leadoff hitter and he seemed to balk at the challenge. he underperformed and subsequenty did not provide the boost needed that Sizemore did. He's an ok center fielder but like Damon does not have an arm. He may buckle under the pressure of beating the Yankees 19 times a year. Hes not like manny where hes too dumb to realize there are people watching. Im not saying he wont but i feel he wont live up to the expectations that damon left or what Boston wants.


Like i siad boston and new york try to be walmart.... I am at the point where i am screaming for a salary cap! Needed now so deals like this cant be done.
No reasons to deal crisp...

Pronk we lit the river on fire, the lake is polluted, this is not three mile island and these guys arent marino, kelly, and elway. We have been good at dealing guys when they hit there peak but crisp shows no signs of being a psycho, alcoholic, crack head, corking his bat, or being old/peaking.

This trade is wrong and if is done some how finding a way for epstein to get this done there is a few things that are going to happen

1. Crisp is going to fail at being a leadoff hitter, just like he did here and thfact that he is going to have issue with penske's pole and the monster he wont put out 10 and wont hit .275 there.

2. Mark shapiro is retarded

3. theo epstein will be worshiped

4. the indians will NOT win 80 games

hollandsworth not the answer i have said this. so what are u going to do when the outfield hits a combined .260 (sizemore will hit .310 in my opinion) insufficient production from first and third and a team that if it repeats last yr. performance will not get started until late may. the pitching can and should be there, but only time will tell...

If they trade Crisp it will be up there with the rock, boudreau, carter, eckersley (good move lets keep the guy who tempted the adultery) giles

[DoubleX]

As a Yankee fan, and more importantly as a baseball fan, I hope Crisp stays with the Indians. Why mess with a winning formula? After making a gallant run in '04, the Indians took it down to the last weekend in '05. This is a young team that should only improve this year and given the strides of the past two years, there is a good chance that the team could get over that hump this year. So I don't get it. I also don't get why Riske was included in the deal? He's better than Mota. It was like the Indians were saying that they have to pony up more because the desperate Red Sox had the stronger side of the deal? I really don't it. Marte might very well turn into a great 3Bman in a couple of years, but the Indians are not only young, they are young and talented and built to win now, with the best years ahead for their core players (Hafner, Sizemore, Crisp). So why trade one?

[Last of the Indian fans]

As a Yankee fan, and more importantly as a baseball fan, I hope Crisp stays with the Indians. Why mess with a winning formula? After making a gallant run in '04, the Indians took it down to the last weekend in '05. This is a young team that should only improve this year and given the strides of the past two years, there is a good chance that the team could get over that hump this year. So I don't get it. I also don't get why Riske was included in the deal? He's better than Mota. It was like the Indians were saying that they have to pony up more because the desperate Red Sox had the stronger side of the deal? I really don't it. Marte might very well turn into a great 3Bman in a couple of years, but the Indians are not only young, they are young and talented and built to win now, with the best years ahead for their core players (Hafner, Sizemore, Crisp). So why trade one?

1. stupidity
2. stupidity
3. stupidity
4. stupidity
5. stupidity
6. stupidity
7. Tallet, Traber, Ludwick, phillips, Bard, Branyan, Escobar, All were suppose to be great, Good call.

8. Marte. He could be branyan/deer, and we love that

[DoubleX]

7. Tallet, Traber, Ludwick, phillips, Bard, Branyan, Escobar, All were suppose to be great, Good call.

8. Marte. He could be branyan/deer, and we love that

I think that says it all. Prospects are nice, but you never know what you're going to get, but you know Crisp is good and you know you can compete now with Crisp. There is good chance Marte will be good, but you don't know it and you don't know how you'll be able to compete with him. You gotta go with the known quantity in here, particulary since he's young, on the rise, and the team is built to compete now.

[BoofBonser26]

As a Yankee fan, and more importantly as a baseball fan, I hope Crisp stays with the Indians. Why mess with a winning formula? After making a gallant run in '04, the Indians took it down to the last weekend in '05. This is a young team that should only improve this year and given the strides of the past two years, there is a good chance that the team could get over that hump this year. So I don't get it. I also don't get why Riske was included in the deal? He's better than Mota. It was like the Indians were saying that they have to pony up more because the desperate Red Sox had the stronger side of the deal? I really don't it. Marte might very well turn into a great 3Bman in a couple of years, but the Indians are not only young, they are young and talented and built to win now, with the best years ahead for their core players (Hafner, Sizemore, Crisp). So why trade one?
That's what all us Tribe fans are saying. :D
Thanks for the support!

[DoubleX]

That's what all us Tribe fans are saying. :D
Thanks for the support!

No problem. Despite being a Yankee fan, I like seeing competition. I like the underdog, and most of all, I like seeing a young team develop, gel, and then hit their stride, and the Indians have that. Along these same lines, I'm actually somewhat excited for the first time ever to watch the Devil Rays. They have a really great young nucleus, that's still 2 or 3 years away from hitting their stride, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[sschirmer]

xx, I couldn't agree with you more. 2006 should be the year the Tribe reaps it's rewards. To give up proven players for prospects at this point only sets them back 2-5 years.

[DoubleX]

xx, I couldn't agree with you more. 2006 should be the year the Tribe reaps it's rewards. To give up proven players for prospects at this point only sets them back 2-5 years.

That's the thing. After the next couple of years, do the Indians keep guys like Haftner, Martinez, and Sizemore when they come up for their big paydays, or do they trade and go back to rebuilding? Given that you don't know financially which direction the team will go in a couple of years, you gotta go for it when you have the pieces in place, which is now.

[Last of the Indian fans]

That's the thing. After the next couple of years, do the Indians keep guys like Haftner, Martinez, and Sizemore when they come up for their big paydays, or do they trade and go back to rebuilding? Given that you don't know financially which direction the team will go in a couple of years, you gotta go for it when you have the pieces in place, which is now.

hell yeah we do but it is buisiness and we dont start showing up we wont be able to pay sizemore, peralta ... martinez and hafner got extenstion but will command some bank

[sschirmer]

Eventually, the payroll is going to have to increase to the $65-75mil mark for the team to remain competitive. Crisp, Sizemore, and Pronk all made less than half a million last year. That, obviously, won't continue.

[pronk48]

Eventually, the payroll is going to have to increase to the $65-75mil mark for the team to remain competitive. Crisp, Sizemore, and Pronk all made less than half a million last year. That, obviously, won't continue.

Ya I agree. But the indians have already surpassed last years season ticket mark and I believe the Indians will continue to improve. It wont be as dramatic like from 03-05 but the will refine thier skills into a championship club. More mportantly we have a core signed through 09. That means we wont be like the Marlins. however i hope we dont become like the phillies. cause the have a good core but they cant win the division. NO 'Last' i dont wanna hear about how great the Braves have been

[sschirmer]

I really hope you are correct. I, unfortunately, don't see them improving over last year. Matter of fact, I think they lost ground to the White Sox during the offseason. I think getting rid of Crisp for a prospect will only broaden the chasm.