What are the top Training Aids?

[tominct]

There are tons of products out there, and there has been some discussion about a few of them on different threads, so why not strat an entirely new thread?

OK, I guess a Tee is ideal. What about a Swing-A-Way? A Hands-Back Tee?

Wheeled Pitching machines v. Iron Mike arm machines?

Comments?

[tadlock11]

Great idea for a thread - I'm sure we will hear pro and cons of all different kinds of training aids. I believe some are useful and others are a means for their creators to make a buck or two.
I have had success with the Hands Back Hitter - used as a station at practice to achieve certain goals.
Of course a hitting tee is ideal. There are plastic balls similar to wiffle balls, called "pickle balls" that last way longer than your average plastic type balls. The absolute best training aid - a good instructor! :lookitup

[hiddengem]

A good friend and collegue of mine showed me this product, and I'm interested in it. I often have the hardest time getting kids to "keep the box" throughout the load and rotation. They always want to "bar" the lead arm, which creates drag through the zone. This might be something the kids can wear to get the feeling of keeping the lead arm bent. I believe Jbooth has purchased this to see how it is. Here is the link to the product and a picture of the box, in case anybody doesn't know what it is.

http://www.baseballexp.com/baseball/productDesc.do?productDesc=12609

[Jake Patterson]

A good friend and collegue of mine showed me this product, and I'm interested in it. I often have the hardest time getting kids to "keep the box" throughout the load and rotation. They always want to "bar" the lead arm, which creates drag through the zone. This might be something the kids can wear to get the feeling of keeping the lead arm bent. I believe Jbooth has purchased this to see how it is. Here is the link to the product and a picture of the box, in case anybody doesn't know what it is.

I saw a hitter in the cages last year with a devise that looks similar. It was a velcro wrap around the upper arm with surgical tube connected to what looked like a batting glove. After watching him use it for a while I could not figure out its purpose and lost interest.

[tominct]

A good friend and collegue of mine showed me this product, and I'm interested in it. I often have the hardest time getting kids to "keep the box" throughout the load and rotation. They always want to "bar" the lead arm, which creates drag through the zone. This might be something the kids can wear to get the feeling of keeping the lead arm bent. I believe Jbooth has purchased this to see how it is. Here is the link to the product and a picture of the box, in case anybody doesn't know what it is.

http://www.baseballexp.com/baseball/productDesc.do?productDesc=12609

Ok, I think the idea of maintaining the box is important and for many young kids difficult to do, is this the ony device that can do that? How ould one invent such a device?

[tadlock11]

How about using PVC pipe to make the "box", strap it to the forearm at the wrist and just under the elbow? Was also thinking about some kind of break-away cord that would connect the back shoulder to the bat just above the hands that could be the seperation indicator. Am I out on a limb with this or is this what we are trying to achieve?

[Jake Patterson]

Wheeled Pitching machines v. Iron Mike arm machines?Comments?

We have a wheel machine that I use for outfield practice. I found this to be much more efficient than me trying to hit fly balls to a spot. I set the machine up and move the player's starting position to simulate different fielding skills, i.e. moving left, right, in, out, etc... It's amazing how many more reps we can get in. I also use old baseballs not the plastic balls that come with the machine. As far as the height the machine can throw. The first time I used it I set both wheels at max and ... thoomp! I don't think the ball has come down yet...

[hiddengem]

How about using PVC pipe to make the "box", strap it to the forearm at the wrist and just under the elbow? Was also thinking about some kind of break-away cord that would connect the back shoulder to the bat just above the hands that could be the seperation indicator. Am I out on a limb with this or is this what we are trying to achieve?

I think Jbooth made something with wood, where he put 2 pieces of wood together at a 90degree angle that was strapped on top of the forearm and up the bicep.

Jim, am I correct with this?

[Ursa Major]

I think Jbooth made something with wood, where he put 2 pieces of wood together at a 90degree angle that was strapped on top of the forearm and up the bicep.I saw it at Jim's facility, and it's exactly as you described. We didn't use it though, as we concentrated on my son's lower half.

I think "arm barring" is overrated as a hitting flaw. Certainly, many major leaguers rotate with their front arm almost straight. (HG, remember your hitting clip of you "walking away from your hands"?) Indeed, you need to do that on outside pitches, and it increases the initial circumference of your hands' arc, thereby increasing the batspeed generation as you tighten up the arc. Griffey and Chipper are prominent straight arm hitters; here's Frank Thomas doing it too:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/thomas_frank.gif

My sense is that the problem isn't so much barring as such, but bad posture. Kids are too erect and too far back on their heels, so the only way that can get to outside pitches is to thrust their arms out straight. That's where the problem should be addressed.

As far as keeping kids arms' "connected" to maximize the impact of their rotation, I think one device that someone should invent is something I pulled together after chatting with Jim Booth, that looks like this:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Velcro.jpg
The idea is that both the elasticized wrist strap and upper bicep strap have Velcro-type strips. During drills, the batter takes his stance with his wrist stuck to the point of his back shoulder. He'll feel the tension holding his hands there as he rotates, reminding him to keep the arm there until the centrifugal force helps to rip the wrist (and hands, and bat) free from the shoulder.

[hiddengem]

I saw it at Jim's facility, and it's exactly as you described. We didn't use it though, as we concentrated on my son's lower half.

I think "arm barring" is overrated as a hitting flaw. Certainly, many major leaguers rotate with their front arm almost straight. (HG, remember your hitting clip of you "walking away from your hands"?) Indeed, you need to do that on outside pitches, and it increases the initial circumference of your hands' arc, thereby increasing the batspeed generation as you tighten up the arc. Griffey and Chipper are prominent straight arm hitters; here's Frank Thomas doing it too:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/thomas_frank.gif

My sense is that the problem isn't so much barring as such, but bad posture. Kids are too erect and too far back on their heels, so the only way that can get to outside pitches is to thrust their arms out straight. That's where the problem should be addressed.

As far as keeping kids arms' "connected" to maximize the impact of their rotation, I think one device that someone should invent is something I pulled together after chatting with Jim Booth, that looks like this:
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/Velcro.jpg
The idea is that both the elasticized wrist strap and upper bicep strap have Velcro-type strips. During drills, the batter takes his stance with his wrist stuck to the point of his back shoulder. He'll feel the tension holding his hands there as he rotates, reminding him to keep the arm there until the centrifugal force helps to rip the wrist (and hands, and bat) free from the shoulder.

So, you don't feel staying in the box is that important?

[jbooth]

I think "arm barring" is overrated as a hitting flaw. Certainly, many major leaguers rotate with their front arm almost straight. (HG, remember your hitting clip of you "walking away from your hands"?) Indeed, you need to do that on outside pitches, and it increases the initial circumference of your hands' arc, thereby increasing the batspeed generation as you tighten up the arc. Griffey and Chipper are prominent straight arm hitters; here's Frank .

Have to disagree with you. There's a difference between swinging with a relatively straight arm from start to finish, versus extending or "barring" the elbow" as a flaw in an intended "box" swing.

Breaking the box is a major problem. Swinging with a relatively straight arm can be done by some people, but it isn't a recommended method. HG is having problems trying to swing with straight arms, he needs to use the box.

If you use the straight arm technique, you need to make other adjustments to insure that the hands stay close to the body and you somehow have to get them around and in front quickly to get an inside pitch, and turning the box is quicker than trying to accelerate the handle with straight arms.

[MSandman]

Hi Erik,

Can you please explain the rationale for this? I was thinking it might help promote a more inside/out swing path if the hitter hit w/ the curve in towards him? As it is now, wouldn't it allow more casting (early pushing of the bat away from the body)?

Thanks,
Sandman

[Erik]

Hi Erik,

Can you please explain the rationale for this? I was thinking it might help promote a more inside/out swing path if the hitter hit w/ the curve in towards him? As it is now, wouldn't it allow more casting (early pushing of the bat away from the body)?

Thanks,
Sandman


MSandman,
I have included this drill in the new instructions with the IS5000 model. I had to improve the design to allow for this application. I agree that this will be more useful in developing an inside/outside swing path. This new unit will help promote this now.

Erik,

[MSandman]

MSandman,
I have included this drill in the new instructions with the IS5000 model. I had to improve the design to allow for this application. I agree that this will be more useful in developing an inside/outside swing path. This new unit will help promote this now.

Erik,

Thanks for the info Erik. So is there any recommendation to ever swing w/ the curve away from you? I'd love to see a video clip of someone swinging w/ the curve towards them.

[Erik]

Thanks for the info Erik. So is there any recommendation to ever swing w/ the curve away from you? I'd love to see a video clip of someone swinging w/ the curve towards them.


I would say that most peoplw will use this device with the U-Bar facing away. I have added this drill to correct the casting problem. I would think that coaches and instructors that are aware of the value to this drill will enforce it. I wouldn't be surprised if parents and players are more inclined to just use the device without really applying this important casting drill. I personaly feel this drill is important, this is why I incorporated it to the new instructions. I will try to get a clip of this drill and send this to you. I need your email address.

Erik,

[Ohfor]

.. this is why I incorporated it to the new instructions...



Cut the bs. You changed the thing because no high level swing could fit through it.

Embarassing when your poster boys swing couldn't even fit through it.

[Erik]

Cut the bs. You changed the thing because no high level swing could fit through it.

Embarassing when your poster boys swing couldn't even fit through it.

Ohfor,
I understand that your role on the bench was simple as a player.:gt :gt

[Ohfor]

I was wondering how long it would take for your real personality to emerge.

People, would you like to see the private emails he sends out.

Of course, here he's trying to schmooze everyone. Trying to make it look like he's a good guy with a good product.

Well, the real answer is he invested a ton of money in the contraption, paid Ken Griffey a nice chunk (Griffey must be laughing) and ended up with something that no high level swing could fit through.

So, he retools and starts talking the virtues of being able to swing "all" the different ways.....

Some things are just hilarious.

And, I apologize for being this hard on him.......but he's earned it. The emails are quite telling who this guy really is.

[Erik]

I was wondering how long it would take for your real personality to emerge.

People, would you like to see the private emails he sends out.

Of course, here he's trying to schmooze everyone. Trying to make it look like he's a good guy with a good product.

Well, the real answer is he invested a ton of money in the contraption, paid Ken Griffey a nice chunk (Griffey must be laughing) and ended up with something that no high level swing could fit through.

So, he retools and starts talking the virtues of being able to swing "all" the different ways.....

Some things are just hilarious.

And, I apologize for being this hard on him.......but he's earned it. The emails are quite telling who this guy really is.

I never invested a ton of money in this product. I never paid Ken Griffey Jr A dime. I licence this product to a company and how much they paid Ken Griffey Jr is a mystery to me. I have recieved a number of emails from this individual and the only way to deal with him is at his level. This individual is a very troubled person. I'm not try to schmooze anyone.

[hiddengem]

I saw a hitter in the cages last year with a devise that looks similar. It was a velcro wrap around the upper arm with surgical tube connected to what looked like a batting glove. After watching him use it for a while I could not figure out its purpose and lost interest.

Do you now understand its purpose?

[Ursa Major]

Originally Posted by Ursa Major
I think "arm barring" is overrated as a hitting flaw. Certainly, many major leaguers rotate with their front arm almost straight. (HG, remember your hitting clip of you "walking away from your hands"?) Indeed, you need to do that on outside pitches, and it increases the initial circumference of your hands' arc, thereby increasing the batspeed generation as you tighten up the arc. Griffey and Chipper are prominent straight arm hitters; here's Frank .

Hidden Gem replied: So, you don't feel staying in the box is that important?I think clips of many MLB hitters show that the angle of the elbow can be at greater than 90 degrees and still produce an effective "box" and, hence, swing if they don't lose their "connection". Whatever that angle is, you can't reduce it during the swing.

JBooth replied: Have to disagree with you. There's a difference between swinging with a relatively straight arm from start to finish, versus extending or "barring" the elbow" as a flaw in an intended "box" swing.

Breaking the box is a major problem. Swinging with a relatively straight arm can be done by some people, but it isn't a recommended method. HG is having problems trying to swing with straight arms, he needs to use the box.

If you use the straight arm technique, you need to make other adjustments to insure that the hands stay close to the body and you somehow have to get them around and in front quickly to get an inside pitch, and turning the box is quicker than trying to accelerate the handle with straight arms.Our differences may substantially be semantic. I agree that the way you define "barring" is bad. Maybe I'm using "barring" to mean something different from what you mean.

Now, if you're talking about a straight arm swing, I don't see how "turning the box is quicker than trying to accelerate the handle with straight arms." If you have a good connection, the hands will get around at the same speed with a straight arm or a bent one. The problem, as you mention, is that you're going to have trouble with an inside pitch, either getting jammed or fouling it down the third base line more often than with a true, bent-elbow "box". Or, you can start bent, and, as you detect the pitch to be more outside, walk away from your hands (i.e. letting your elbow straighten as you take your stride), and then rotate. Is that what you mean by "barring"?

I was going to chide you about your critique of HG's swings and ask you how many of HG's swings you have seen to so as to be able to make that assessment about him. But, I've seen four clips where he got hits against live pitching and it seems that you're right about his tendency, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "he's having trouble."

[jbooth]

I think clips of many MLB hitters show that the angle of the elbow can be at greater than 90 degrees and still produce an effective "box" and, hence, swing if they don't lose their "connection". Whatever that angle is, you can't reduce it during the swing.

Our differences may substantially be semantic. I agree that the way you define "barring" is bad. Maybe I'm using "barring" to mean something different from what you mean.

Now, if you're talking about a straight arm swing, I don't see how "turning the box is quicker than trying to accelerate the handle with straight arms." If you have a good connection, the hands will get around at the same speed with a straight arm or a bent one. The problem, as you mention, is that you're going to have trouble with an inside pitch, either getting jammed or fouling it down the third base line more often than with a true, bent-elbow "box". Or, you can start bent, and, as you detect the pitch to be more outside, walk away from your hands (i.e. letting your elbow straighten as you take your stride), and then rotate. Is that what you mean by "barring"?

I was going to chide you about your critique of HG's swings and ask you how many of HG's swings you have seen to so as to be able to make that assessment about him. But, I've seen four clips where he got hits against live pitching and it seems that you're right about his tendency, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "he's having trouble."

I think we're pretty much on the same page.

A 90 degree box turns quicker because the radius from handle to body is shorter, and the angular momentum applied to the bathead is greater so the bathead accelerates at a higher rate.

You can turn any shaped box that you wish, it's the disconnection that is the big problem, but turning a small box is best.

HG knows what I mean, I spoke with him on the phone and have exchanged PM's.

[Jake Patterson]

Do you now understand its purpose?
I do now... Not sure I would be able to effectively teach with it. I would have to go to someone who has experience teaching with it first.

[tadlock11]

Here's some more feedback about the HBH: http://www.tipsfromthecoach.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=198

Also, what about some home made contraptions? I was given advice by a high school coach about using a 4x4 and making a balance beam to help young hitters keep their balance.

[jbooth]

A good friend and collegue of mine showed me this product, and I'm interested in it. I often have the hardest time getting kids to "keep the box" throughout the load and rotation. They always want to "bar" the lead arm, which creates drag through the zone. This might be something the kids can wear to get the feeling of keeping the lead arm bent. I believe Jbooth has purchased this to see how it is. Here is the link to the product and a picture of the box, in case anybody doesn't know what it is.

http://www.baseballexp.com/baseball/productDesc.do?productDesc=12609

I received my "Power Punch" yesterday. I highly recommend it. I used it and it really helped my swing. I tried it on 6 of my students aged 12 and under, and they LIKED it. They said it helped them understand what I was trying to convey and they could feel it.

Now the BAD news. They didn't tell me that they come in 4 sizes and they sent me a "small."

Now the REALLY bad news; it comes with a DVD that shows you how to use it and the guy teaching swing mechanics tells you to swing the bathead in a straight line from the bathead's starting position, to the ball. YOWW! NO wonder he only made it to the minor level of pro ball. He emphasizes not letting the bat ever get horizontal, or paralell to the ground. Geez.

[hiddengem]

I received my "Power Punch" yesterday. I highly recommend it. I used it and it really helped my swing. I tried it on 6 of my students aged 12 and under, and they LIKED it. They said it helped them understand what I was trying to convey and they could feel it.

Well this is good to know. I have a friend going to Baseball Express this weekened in San Antonio and he's going to pick me up one.

Now the BAD news. They didn't tell me that they come in 4 sizes and they sent me a "small."
You mentioned that you were able to use the one you have. I would like to use it for myself, but I would also like to use it for my young kids as well. What would you reccomend?

Now the REALLY bad news; it comes with a DVD that shows you how to use it and the guy teaching swing mechanics tells you to swing the bathead in a straight line from the bathead's starting position, to the ball. YOWW! NO wonder he only made it to the minor level of pro ball. He emphasizes not letting the bat ever get horizontal, or paralell to the ground. Geez.

Well, just last night I had a "breakthrough" conversation with a hitting instructor whom I had been doing a team lesson with, that happens to work for a professional organization. I was tired of having kids come into my cage with a crappy swing, hitting nothing but cheap gound balls, and then having to fix them so they could hit a line drive.

So, I put a T in front of him and ask him to get into the contact position he thinks you should be in. (He didn't know that I had your "cluster" of photos of great hitters in the contact position). He went on to show me the contact position that Lau or Hriniack(sp) would probably show you. Which was, bat paralell to the ground, front elbow not even close the postion of Manny's. And his shoulders were level.

Not wanting to make it seem as though I was "telling" him he didn't know what he was talking about, I said "ok,(showing him the picture) why are all of these great hitters in a completely different position, than the one you are in?" He tried to back himself up a couple of times, telling me how he thought they were getting to that position, and finally gave in. And said, "Dam Dave, that makes alot of sense"
I still need to get him in the cage and hit like that before I really think it will sink in. Hopefully he will "get it" before he goes back to ST.

[jbooth]

You mentioned that you were able to use the one you have. I would like to use it for myself, but I would also like to use it for my young kids as well. What would you reccomend?


I got it to work by strapping it on with some velcro straps that I had on hand. It was too small to wrap around my big guns. :)

The video mentions 4 sizes, but the one I got didn't have a size label on it, so I don't know what size it is. It fit well on a big 12 year old, it was a little bit too big on a small 9 year old. You can adjust the cords, but you can't adjust the strap that wraps around your upper arm or the wrist.

[hiddengem]

I got it to work by strapping it on with some velcro straps that I had on hand. It was too small to wrap around my big guns. :)

The video mentions 4 sizes, but the one I got didn't have a size label on it, so I don't know what size it is. It fit well on a big 12 year old, it was a little bit too big on a small 9 year old. You can adjust the cords, but you can't adjust the strap that wraps around your upper arm or the wrist.


I got the Power Punch today as well. I like it. The upper arm velcro strap was a bit small, but I made it work. It gives the user a clear understanding of how to keep the arm bent until after contact.

[swingbuster]

HBH evolution

When I made the CD for the HBH I made illustrations like the clayman and called it forming the U. The U was drawn down the lead arm over the forearm and up the bat. This was the box as I saw it. Then for kids, we rock the U back until the lead elbow is behind the belly button. Until now I had never seen the clayman drawing with teh box. Our U was a box with no top.

We found keeping the front shoulder in was easier and took less strength when the swing had a short radius. Forming the U , rocking the U and maintaining this U to toe touch makes many kids much better hence the comments from the Dads

We found that the length of the lead arm ( once established ) was fairly constant for the rest of the swing. So if you went long early with the lead arm you were sort of stuck with that long radius for the rest of the swing.

We then found that if you maintained this U until your foot landed that you were connected better than most kids had ever been connected and you had a quick short radius ( throw the frisbee) lead arm action.

We then found that "the shift" in most kids wrongfully and totally replaced the rotation and if you slowed or eliminated the possibility of continued shifting after foot plant that kids learned to turn into the ball.

You must get to this point before you add the finer points that many describe. We are talking 8- 12 year old kids that are trying to pay a game here.

A friend said

" Donny if your product is a commercial success then some people that like you now will not like you then, and you will not understand why, but we all know what will be at the root of it don't we ". He was a wise man about human nature.


I knew that maintaining the wrist foreaem angle until near contact was the most important part of hitting for little kids. They have known that in golf for 150 years See product SwingGYDE. That 90 degree hinge point is so important with aluminum bats

http://www.shop-safely.com/shops.asp?shop=shegolfs&cartid=2924515&pid=D-SWGYDE

Since I am an Auburn grad I can comment on Frank Thomas a former football player at At Auburn. At 6'5 ' 275 ibs. the fence is relatively pretty close.

Nobody will believe this but here goes. I coached a black kid from Selma Al they called "Scoop". He weighed 107 pounds at age 13 , but all wirey muscle. To open the season that year he lead off and on the first pitch he hit a line drive that hit the score board that was 300 feet away from home plate so hard that the ball bounced back( 10 feet) fair over the 290 foot fence in LF.

Now at 275...how good does Frank have to swing anyway.

[bbjunkie]

One great aide I've found is a videocam that can play back in slomo. This may not seem like a huge revelation to those with a lot of experience watching hitters or pitchers, but to me it opens a whole new world. I went to my local Circuit City looking for a videocam that had slomo and, to my suprise, the clerk pointed to one out of the 20-30 on display and said that was the only one they had with slomo. And, that was the only item of that model they had in stock. Fortunately, it was reasonably priced and I got an extra discount because it was their demonstrator. I thought this would be a fairly standard feature that a lot of people would want. What do I know?

So far I have only had an opportunity to use it with our kids' winter batting team, but what an eye opener. When I slowed their swings way down, I was able to identify a lot of small things that affect their swings. Further, I was able to show the kids what I was talking about. I think this, together with some dvds I'm getting, should be great helps in teaching skills and identifying problems this coming season.

[WonderMonkey]

There are tons of products out there, and there has been some discussion about a few of them on different threads, so why not strat an entirely new thread?

OK, I guess a Tee is ideal. What about a Swing-A-Way? A Hands-Back Tee?

Wheeled Pitching machines v. Iron Mike arm machines?

Comments?

I haven't read any of the other responses. Here are my thoughts.

Hitting:
- A patient person that is willing to learn how to instruct as best they can.
- An area to do some drills.
- A wood bat for drills.
- An 'L" screen.
- A tee.

Fielding:
- A patient person that is willing to learn how to instruct as best they can.
- An area to do some drills.
- A fungo for somone to hit buckets of balls.

To me that is all I REALLY need to run a season of practice for a player and are the best tools. Anything else is used to either create some variety or to address a specific problem. I have a fews things used for these purposes.

For hitting a pitching machine is useful but live pitching from 3/4 distance behind an "L" screen can do very well and in my mind is preferable to an Iron Mike or such. Now if you happen to have a ProBatter machine then that's a different story.

[swingbuster]

The Pro HItter is cool..wish I had one in my house

This is a great very challeging drill using the HBH for kids that really don't get what shift means or how and when. You will not believe how few kids can transfer momentum. The shift IS the transfer not a step and then hit. It is very important to get that right to get the bottom hand pull through. Not one in 100 know how

I went out today after reading your stuff again and thinking about your talk all the way through church. I set up a Youth Model HBH and got a 30 " swiftstik, 9" plastic balls

I used the bottom hand only and held the stik vertically at the deltoid. I took a liberal stride to a bent front knee on the string and pulled myself into a rotation from the front side like you described when you walk. My rear toe when heel the sky and laces to the pitcher and the ball took off. It tool me about 10 swings to get it but I feel it now. WOW !!

Staying back in a sense that you spin and never shift leaves something on the table. You must shift to get the front side pull through I really like what I feel and it is a great indicator to use the HBH . The sequence is perfect.

[dacoolman88]

wooden bats, gloves u name it

[hiddengem]

The Pro HItter is cool..wish I had one in my house

It is very important to get that right to get the bottom hand pull through. Not one in 100 know how

So why is it that B.Bonds thinks his top hand is most important? When I think about pulling with my bottom hand I end up straightening it out, but when I think about using my top hand rather than pulling with my bottom, I keep the box and rotate as one unit AND for some reason my rear elbow doesn't want to get in front of my hands as I rotate.

[swingbuster]

the bottom hand pull is linked to the weight shift. Kids that don't know how and when to shift cannot do the bottom hand drill effectively. The shift is confused and the meaning blurred into striding. If you stride then pull the knob you do nothing . If you pull the knob and the shift moves the release point forward and aids the pull through then that should be seen as the stride

Bonds connects the shoulders to the hips early in a spatial sense( or more back behind him. He doesn't shift very much. The early swing is bottom hand pull for Bonds.

previous post HSBBWEB

quote:
Not after foot plant...After the front foot is planted there is no forward momentum of the center. Will Clark has nearly a foot of forward momentum after foot plant.


Agreed , I participated in this for one reason. It is relatively easy to teach a purely rotational swing . It is also relatively hard to teach it with weight shift.

****** teaching weigh shift is hard to do with lower body cues and that is why I failed at it for so long...there...I am not a know it all

I gave what I believe to be a valuable tip. I find it hard to get a kid to load, shift, rotate. Sounds easy by operationalizing it is not.

The shift in baseball and golf is teachable when the player trys to

1. move the ( whole rotating shoulder unit / box) forward before release. The player will shift almost unconsciencely to meet that upper body goal.

or

2. rotate the shoulders until the hand position( pulling the knob ) is past the lead hip before releasing the 90 degree wrist angle( you will see this in CHippers clip too if you look).

This cue will " bring the mass forward while turning" even if they have no clue what that means and they don't. But players that already know somewhat how to rotate pick this up quickly.

You should shift( as your shoulders turn) to a point of release not shift and then turn and hit. Weight transfer as a term means more to me than stride and I know that is hard to understand until you see kids move the front foot only to hit and have absolutely no weight transfer.

Teaching good rotation is important but, our love affair with pointing out pure rotation can leave some holes in the hitting equation.

I had a good player do the drill (2) off of a tee yesterday and this senior SS 178 lbs took that cue in the cage and hit back to back 340 foot HRs. First of two weeks practicing as he was staying centered and just turning...he had poor power relative to his ability.

The finer points will mean something as these kids get older

thanks to Coach Preston Peavy..www.peavynet.com

[jbooth]

the bottom hand pull is linked to the weight shift. Kids that don't know how and when to shift cannot do the bottom hand drill effectively. The shift is confused and the meaning blurred into striding. If you stride then pull the knob you do nothing . If you pull the knob and the shift moves the release point forward and aids the pull through then that should be seen as the stride

Bonds connects the shoulders to the hips early in a spatial sense( or more back behind him. He doesn't shift very much. The early swing is bottom hand pull for Bonds.

previous post HSBBWEB

quote:
www.peavynet.com

There is no bottom hand pull, there is no top hand push, there is no top hand or bottom hand torque.

The hips turn and the shoulders remain in place, until the turn of the hip stretches the muscles in the side, to the point that the shoulder must turn with the hips, now those muscles contract to accelerate the shoulders in an effort to catch up with the hips that started first and are leading. The arms don't do a dang thing except keep their original form and allow them to transfer the force to the bat. The hands don't do anything except act as a hinge at one corner of the box.

The hips are the engine that creates the force to hit the ball and the torso muscles are like the second stage of a rocket that adds additional force as the momentum started by the hips begins to decrease, and the torso force accelerates the shoulders. The arms don't apply any forces directly to the bat to push it (no third stage of rocket.) The arms apply centripetal force to the handle (keep it close to the body, or pull the handle in) to maintain a short radius for the handle of the bat to follow, and to keep the handle moving in an arc so that bathead velocity can increase due to the law of conservation of angular momentum. The arms and hands, conserve (a physics term), the momentum of the bat that was created from forces applied by the body.

If you try to use your arms and hands to add force to create more momentum you will usually change the angles and mess up the forces that were already in effect accelerating the bathead.

When you straighten your front arm in the middle of rotation and before contact, you lengthen the radius of the handle arc, or change the arc to a straight line, which hugely affects the angular momentum, which stops bathead acceleration.

As Nyman correctly stated, set your posture, stay connected and rotate like heck. I can't stand the guy, but you cannot dispute his physics observations. Where I mostly disagree with him, is in HOW you use the body, and which muscles are used to make the swing happen. I have no disagreement with his analysis of WHAT happens in regard to the physics in play.

[swingbuster]

Jim ..that is a good post and description that I can write almost verbatum as well. What is at issue here goes beyond the physics of angular acceleration .

The bat and arms and hands behind the body have weight / mass. When the rotation starts their inertia applies a physical force opposite to the turn and the axis gets pulled backwards unless countered by an opposite force in the form of a forward weight shift.

Present cues do not serve this important area well.

I am addressing the cues and feel of how to apply the shift without breaking down the rotary power.

If nothing else, the batter must have a sense of moving the body/ box forward to maintain the rotational axis when the turn occurs. We have taken that away in no stride and it is important

cannot dispute his physics observations.

If there is no shift to account for bat and back side inertia then the observations must be disputed

[bbjunkie]

“There is no bottom hand pull, there is no top hand push, there is no top hand or bottom hand torque.”

Of course there are both.

”The hips turn and the shoulders remain in place, until the turn of the hip stretches the muscles in the side, to the point that the shoulder must turn with the hips, now those muscles contract to accelerate the shoulders in an effort to catch up with the hips that started first and are leading. The arms don't do a dang thing except keep their original form and allow them to transfer the force to the bat.”

OK

“The hands don't do anything except act as a hinge at one corner of the box.”

Huh? Remember, all the force of the body has to be transferred to the bat through the hands. They are not merely a hinge (bad metaphor anyway, unless you mean a hinge that has nearly 180 degrees of motion in all directions) or the bat would flap uselessly out there swinging wildly in whatever direction physics dictates.

You’ll notice that all those great clips on the Nyman and young hitters threads have one thing in common. There are different “strides” or “weight shifts”, but once the front foot is planted, all forward motion stops and that energy is transferred into the back hip that gets a jump start on rotation with the upper body and arms following suit.

If the hands weren’t doing anything but holding the bat in place, the bat motion would be like an appendage rigidly connected to the axis or spine. But, that is not the case. There is a brief hesitation as the body begins rotation before inertia is overcome, then the bat head accelerates much faster relative to the body than would be the case if it were merely being held in place by the hands. (the Rose clip shows this well)

I don’t know which hand is most important. (my guess is that they are about equally important as they apply approximately equal and opposite force to the handle) The trick is for the batter to forcefully propel the bat with his hands while not letting his hands interfere with the swing plane.

[jbooth]

“There is no bottom hand pull, there is no top hand push, there is no top hand or bottom hand torque.”

Of course there are both.

”The hips turn and the shoulders remain in place, until the turn of the hip stretches the muscles in the side, to the point that the shoulder must turn with the hips, now those muscles contract to accelerate the shoulders in an effort to catch up with the hips that started first and are leading. The arms don't do a dang thing except keep their original form and allow them to transfer the force to the bat.”

OK

“The hands don't do anything except act as a hinge at one corner of the box.”

Huh? Remember, all the force of the body has to be transferred to the bat through the hands. They are not merely a hinge (bad metaphor anyway, unless you mean a hinge that has nearly 180 degrees of motion in all directions) or the bat would flap uselessly out there swinging wildly in whatever direction physics dictates.

You’ll notice that all those great clips on the Nyman and young hitters threads have one thing in common. There are different “strides” or “weight shifts”, but once the front foot is planted, all forward motion stops and that energy is transferred into the back hip that gets a jump start on rotation with the upper body and arms following suit.

If the hands weren’t doing anything but holding the bat in place, the bat motion would be like an appendage rigidly connected to the axis or spine. But, that is not the case. There is a brief hesitation as the body begins rotation before inertia is overcome, then the bat head accelerates much faster relative to the body than would be the case if it were merely being held in place by the hands. (the Rose clip shows this well)

I don’t know which hand is most important. (my guess is that they are about equally important as they apply approximately equal and opposite force to the handle) The trick is for the batter to forcefully propel the bat with his hands while not letting his hands interfere with the swing plane.

Believe what you wish. I'm not going to argue. I disagree with you.

[jbooth]

Jim ..that is a good post and description that I can write almost verbatum as well. What is at issue here goes beyond the physics of angular acceleration .

The bat and arms and hands behind the body have weight / mass. When the rotation starts their inertia applies a physical force opposite to the turn and the axis gets pulled backwards unless countered by an opposite force in the form of a forward weight shift.

Present cues do not serve this important area well.

I am addressing the cues and feel of how to apply the shift without breaking down the rotary power.

If nothing else, the batter must have a sense of moving the body/ box forward to maintain the rotational axis when the turn occurs. We have taken that away in no stride and it is important

.

If there is no shift to account for bat and back side inertia then the observations must be disputed

There is a shift, but it doesn't happen the way you think it does.

[swingbuster]

Well please share as I coached 26 kids today and I can use all the help I can get. I need to get them into the front side more.


You did not mention how in 6 paragraphs of text would you add to that please

Do you agree with my reason why you need a shift?

[bbjunkie]

Believe what you wish. I'm not going to argue. I disagree with you.
Perhaps the tone of my post offended you. If so, I apologize. However, there is a substantive point that I would like to have explained. How does a bat travel from about 90 degrees to the front forearm to nearly a straight line at the point of impact without the hands applying considerable force to the bat? Why do the great power hitters all appear to have substantial forearm and hand strength if not to swing the bat? They wouldn't need that much strength if the hands acted merely as a hinge. All they would need is enough strength to hang on to the bat.

[Ohfor]

Are you talking about a bad swing where the hitter, because of his strength, can use his hands to punch a single on a tough pitch?

Well, we're talking about a good swing. One where all the force that goes into the handle to angularly displace the barrel comes from rotation.

Nothing wrong with hand strength. Nothing wrong with strength in general. But, it plays little role in the good swing.

In a good swing the force flows through the hands. It is not generated by them.

[jbooth]

How does a bat travel from about 90 degrees to the front forearm to nearly a straight line at the point of impact without the hands applying considerable force to the bat?

By a law of physics called "the law of conservation of angular momentum."

Why do the great power hitters all appear to have substantial forearm and hand strength if not to swing the bat?

Because, like you, they THINK that's what happens.

They wouldn't need that much strength if the hands acted merely as a hinge. All they would need is enough strength to hang on to the bat.

That's exactly correct. You just hang on. In fact the strength of the forearms and hands is needed to keep the bat from flying away from them because so much force in the bathead has been created by the angular momentum. Ask HG about this. My relationship with him started with a debate on this exact subject. I believe he now has seen the light.

[bbjunkie]

That's exactly correct. You just hang on. In fact the strength of the forearms and hands is needed to keep the bat from flying away from them because so much force in the bathead has been created by the angular momentum. Ask HG about this. My relationship with him started with a debate on this exact subject. I believe he now has seen the light.
So, you would explain "bat drag" (as I was told on another thread is the term) as the hands traveling ahead of the bat thereby losing the arc rather than not enough force being applied through the hands to swing the bat properly?

[hiddengem]

So, you would explain "bat drag" (as I was told on another thread is the term) as the hands traveling ahead of the bat thereby losing the arc rather than not enough force being applied through the hands to swing the bat properly?

The Hands travel ahead of the barrell all the way until contact. I call that "Bat Lag" The Stronger your hands are at contact, the better you will be able to resist the force of the ball hitting the bat. BUT, I do agree that hand strength, when talking about the overall swing when things are together perfectly, doesn't have much bearing on the power put into the ball.

If anybody can post that clip of Rose overhead, it will show him how his hands are leading the barrell all the way until contact.

[swingbuster]

if you want to know why the hands cannot push a bat 83 MPH here is the science

http://carini.physics.indiana.edu/E105/swing.html

[jbooth]

So, you would explain "bat drag" (as I was told on another thread is the term) as the hands traveling ahead of the bat thereby losing the arc rather than not enough force being applied through the hands to swing the bat properly?

I believe "bat drag" was a term invented by Nyman. It may be difficult to describe in words. It means that you are dragging the bat, kind of like you would drag your dog on a leash. Picture the bat being a rope tied to an object behind the catcher. When a batter uses "bat drag" he is trying to pull on the rope just with his arms and hands.

A good swing is similar, but the hands are farther back, near the shoulder, and the attempt to drag the object is done more effeciently by leaving the hands and rear elbow back, keeping the arms in a rigid box, and dragging the object by using the hips and torso muscles with the shoulder muscles.

When you see a batter's back elbow forward of his side and his hands well ahead of his shoulder movement, it means he has either started the swing with the arms instead of the body, and/or he is using the arms to move the bat, instead of starting the body ahead of the hand movement.
Does that make sense?

[jbooth]

The Hands travel ahead of the barrell all the way until contact. I call that "Bat Lag" The Stronger your hands are at contact, the better you will be able to resist the force of the ball hitting the bat. BUT, I do agree that hand strength, when talking about the overall swing when things are together perfectly, doesn't have much bearing on the power put into the ball.

If anybody can post that clip of Rose overhead, it will show him how his hands are leading the barrell all the way until contact.

"Bat lag" means that the hips and shoulders move before the hands move, and that when the hands do move, they move the handle forward and around the body, so the bathead "lags" behind.

The head or barrel, of the bat is the last thing to move and the last thing to reach the contact point. It lags behind everything else.
The dictionary definition of "lag" is;
To fail to keep up a pace; straggle.
An interval between events or phenomena considered together.

[MSandman]

If anybody can post that clip of Rose overhead, it will show him how his hands are leading the barrell all the way until contact.

http://members.cox.net/sandmanbaseball/Rose.gif

[swingbuster]

momentum transfer to front side ...see rear toe drag

[jsiggy]

Jim's definitions were pretty descriptive.

My understanding of Nyman's definitions of bat drag and bat lag.

Bat Drag: top hand elbow gets ahead of the top hand during in the first few frames after the top hand elbow has started moving.

Examples:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/springklein-drag-close.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/andy-drag.gif


Problems caused include dropping the barrel, casting, longer swing.


Bat lag: disconnection of the hands/arms/shoulders during initial portion of swing. Distinguished by bat knob not moving forward, while rear elbow is dropping after shoulder rotation has begun. So bat just sits there (or flattens) while body is turning.

Hmm... not very clear when I reread it. Looked but didn't see any good example clips... I'll post when I find one.

[jsiggy]

Thoughts on a device like this?

http://www.directsports.com/images/bats/hingebat.jpg

I had a similar homemade version until the wood handle began cracking... one of my favorite swing training devices as it really enforces several good mechanics.

[jbooth]

Jim's definitions were pretty descriptive.

My understanding of the terms bat drag and bat lag as defined by Nyman.

Bat Drag: top hand elbow gets ahead of the top hand during in the first few frames after the top hand elbow has started moving.

Examples:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/springklein-drag-close.gifhttp://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/andy-drag.gif


Problems caused include dropping the barrel, casting, longer swing.


Bat lag: another form of disconnection of the hands/arms/shoulders during initial portion of swing. Distinguished by bat knob not moving while rear elbow is dropping after shoulder rotation has begun. So bat just sits there while turning and then is yanked forward - as opossed to being turned throughout the swing. Looked but didn't see any good example clips... I'll post when I find one.

Yes those are Nymans definitions. His definition of "bat lag" is correct for talking with physicists, but it isn't what baseball players define as bat lag. Epstein for instance uses the term "bat lag" to mean that you don't cast it or move it before the shoulders. Nyman uses it to describe how a batter could replicate lag as defined in physics.

[hiddengem]

Yes those are Nymans definitions. His definition of "bat lag" is correct for talking with physicists, but it isn't what baseball players define as bat lag. Epstein for instance uses the term "bat lag" to mean that you don't cast it or move it before the shoulders. Nyman uses it to describe how a batter could replicate lag as defined in physics.


I'm on the same page as Jim..Bat Lag to me, is where you rotate your shoulders, arms and hands while "lagging" the barrell of the bat. One of my favorite hitting coaches from when I was a rookie used to tell me, "Don't expose the handle (of the bat) too soon". Same thing.

[hiddengem]

Yes those are Nymans definitions. His definition of "bat lag" is correct for talking with physicists, but it isn't what baseball players define as bat lag. Epstein for instance uses the term "bat lag" to mean that you don't cast it or move it before the shoulders. Nyman uses it to describe how a batter could replicate lag as defined in physics.

.............

[swingbuster]

Bat lag...normal hinge point of wrist remains 90 degrees until the bat comes out from cenripetal force

bat drag... abnormal.. top hand pulling knob instead of bottom. Look at gif and see that the kid did not transfer weight to over come the bat inertia and you cannot pull the knob with the bottom hand from the rear foot so he is pulling it with the rear shoulder top hand. He will be back foot spinning more than you think . His head did not stay over his belt buckle during the stride. At foot plant and rotation it is way behind it. NOT GOOD STUFF


This swing looks better than it really is. The heavier the bat, relative to the size of the player the more need for shift as the more inertia. A LL guy with an 18 oz might pull it off better than a JV kid with a -3.

So when you loving the rotational swing with very minimal to no shift in the LL kids you better know that it is going to crash his cart when they hand him that -3 soon. Then you will be back to the drawing board.

Been there done that.

I laughed when I heard golfer John daley say he golf is based on one simple cue "start on the back and finish on the front". simple and needs some understanding but bears noting that weight shift cannot be totally ignored

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: He will be back foot spinning more than you think . His head did not stay over his belt buckle during the stride. At foot plant and rotation it is way behind it. NOT GOOD STUFFYou'd think he'd be spinning, but even where the clip cuts off, he's already up off the ball of his back foot and onto his toes. But, as you point, there's not enough "shift" (your term, but I don't like that cue) or "drive into the front leg" (my preferred cue) to get him up onto his front foot.
So when you loving the rotational swing with very minimal to no shift in the LL kids you better know that it is going to crash his cart when they hand him that -3 soon. Then you will be back to the drawing board. I don't think I'd take it that far. I think the only "no shift" adherents (under your definition) are those into "squashing the bug/keeping the weight back". Anyone here want to admit to believing that? C'mon; show of hands please. :waving Guess not.

You say, "The heavier the bat, relative to the size of the player the more need for shift as the more inertia." I wouldn't think a JV kid who's fifty pounds heavier than he was as a little leaguer is going to need a great swing adjustment because he's swinging a bat that's ten ounces heavier. (30 oz. as contrasted with 20 oz.) An efficient swing is an efficient swing either way. So, why would there be a need to "go back to the drawing board"? If anything, because of the greater likelihood that a JV player will face offspeed pitches, encouraging a weight shift would increase the likelihood of lunging on mistimed pitches, wouldn't it?

[swingbuster]

I wouldn't think a JV kid who's fifty pounds heavier than he was as a little leaguer is going to need a great swing adjustment because he's swinging a bat that's ten ounces heavier. (30 oz. as contrasted with 20 oz.)

The move up to 28 -29 oz bat is a huge adjustment period.

When Babe was swinging some 50 oz lumber he shifted big time

There is a good discussion on BF about shift now and people with young kids would greatly benefit.

If anything, because of the greater likelihood that a JV player will face offspeed pitches, encouraging a weight shift would increase the likelihood of lunging on mistimed pitches, wouldn't it?

Fastballs will still be the order of the day and catching up is still a big issue or should we say"starting early".

[Ursa Major]

Swingbuster said: The move up to 28 -29 oz bat is a huge adjustment period. Well, I haven't coached JV players, so I'm not an expert as to their adjustment, but:

1. My 11 y/o, 78 lb. son has moved up in 8 months (with only about a five pound weight gain) from 16.5 oz. to 20 oz. He'll have another three years and probably 50-60 lbs. (we get growth late in my family) before he needs to worry about JV weight bats. I think the additional ten ounces won't be that great by comparison. Of course, he won't be making that jump all at once.

2. When I was his age and a little heavier (I was at about 100 lbs.) using wood, I swung a 32 oz. wooden bat with decent success, and my technique was as crappy as the instruction I got then.

Fastballs will still be the order of the day and catching up is still a big issue or should we say"starting early".If you can't adjust to an off-speed pitch, why would anyone groove a fastball to you? And, it's not just velocity anymore. Maybe it's because of better hitting techniques and more powerful light bats, but in my son's 11-12 league, coaches are realizing that 80% of the batters can get around on all but the very best fastballs, so pitchers need a good changeup to survive. One team started the year last year going 1 and 8 because everyone was beating their brains out, and their coach then taught every one of his pitchers a changeup and actually signaled them when to use it, and they ended up almost making the championship game. So, I think more and more pitchers will be mixing speeds at younger ages.

And, I don't think "starting early" is the answer to anyone's difficulty with hitting a fastball. Aren't we all after better bat speed so we can start the swing later to (a) make better "go"/"no go" decisions, and (b) direct the bathead more accurately to the contact point?

[swingbuster]

I swung a 32 oz

And we shifted that sucker too

And, I don't think "starting early" is the answer to anyone's difficulty with hitting a fastball

HUmmmmm... I mean loading and countering the move of the pitcher . And yes a very good fastball will ring um up at any age.

My 9th grade son playing varsity faced 88-92 one day with pro scouts clocking this kid that signed Bama.

You will run into some mismatches along the way.

The change still gets 70 % of all outs in some studies done

[bbjunkie]

There is a good discussion on BF about shift now and people with young kids would greatly benefit.
Here I am showing my igerance again. What's BF?

[bbjunkie]

1. My 11 y/o, 78 lb. son has moved up in 8 months (with only about a five pound weight gain) from 16.5 oz. to 20 oz. He'll have another three years and probably 50-60 lbs.
My son is 12 and weighs 85#. He's swinging a 24oz. bat in a 14U batting league. He has the second most homers in the league. He also used it on a 14U fall ball travel team last fall. He didn't burn up the league, but he held his own.

[Ursa Major]

BBJunkie said: Here I am showing my igerance again. What's BF?BF = Baseball Fever. Where you're at right now.
My son is 12 and weighs 85#. He's swinging a 24oz. bat in a 14U batting league. He has the second most homers in the league. Impressive! Now that's a swing I'd like to see. What is a "batting league"? Never heard of it.

[wogdoggy]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thoughts on a device like this?



I had a similar homemade version until the wood handle began cracking... one of my favorite swing training devices as it really enforces several good mechanics.


i have the regular metalwood bats and thet are the best cage bat around..did u buy this 2 piece bat? what does it claim to improve
?

[jsiggy]

i have the regular metalwood bats and thet are the best cage bat around..did u buy this 2 piece bat?

I haven't bought it because of the price. Made my own with an old wood bat - but my first attempt only lasted a month before some noticeable cracks showed up.


what does it claim to improve?


The manufacturer claims it "Teaches proper swing mechanics, builds strength, develops muscle memory, and identifies flaws with EVERY swing you take".

Dang, how can you beat that. :o

I saw some very good results with it during the short time I used it with several kids. It seems to require a pretty good swing. Disconnection between the body & bat and mismtaches of swing & momentum planes are felt. Hard to push that bat head or use a linear hand path. Kids seemed to learn to whip/flail the bathead better with it.

Wish it was cheaper as I worry about liability with a home made version.

(Watch out on the follow through though especially if using it with kids. My kids all got a good safety warning after I knocked the crap outta myself on my first swing.)

[tominct]

I haven't bought it because of the price. Made my own with an old wood bat - but my first attempt only lasted a month before some noticeable cracks showed up.



The manufacturer claims it "Teaches proper swing mechanics, builds strength, develops muscle memory, and identifies flaws with EVERY swing you take".

Dang, how can you beat that. :o

I saw some very good results with it during the short time I used it with several kids. It seems to require a pretty good swing. Disconnection between the body & bat and mismtaches of swing & momentum planes are felt. Hard to push that bat head or use a linear hand path. Kids seemed to learn to whip/flail the bathead better with it.

Wish it was cheaper as I worry about liability with a home made version.

(Watch out on the follow through though especially if using it with kids. My kids all got a good safety warning after I knocked the crap outta myself on my first swing.)

I lead ignorace too, what is this thing suppose to do?

Tom

Also, and I have been just scanning this thread, for I had surgery yesterday and muct get back to lying down, but are you folks saying that the weight must shift ONTO the front foot? If that's the case, I will need some serious explanations about that one! I'm under the impression that one frims the front leg and sorta hits against it with weight evenly distributed on contact. Correct me if I am wrong.

thanks

[hiddengem]

I lead ignorace too, what is this thing suppose to do?

Tom

Also, and I have been just scanning this thread, for I had surgery yesterday and muct get back to lying down, but are you folks saying that the weight must shift ONTO the front foot? If that's the case, I will need some serious explanations about that one! I'm under the impression that one frims the front leg and sorta hits against it with weight evenly distributed on contact. Correct me if I am wrong.

thanks

You have to be carefull with this one. As you are striding out you are "falling" into your front leg. During this stride/fall your head might be moving forward, BUT staying centered between your legs. At the moment your front foot hits the ground, you should be starting the rotation of your back hip. (Picture of Bonds with both heels off the ground.)

Because of this "Falling", your weight is going to be shifting to the front. Now, as you are exploding your back hip around the front hip(by keeping the front foot closed) you NEED to be exploding into a STRAIGHT front leg.

If you look closely at some of these video clips, you will notice that upon complete hip rotation, at contact, the back foot will slide forward, OR come off the ground completely. The ONLY way the back foot can come off the ground is if 100% of the weight is on the front foot.

[tom.guerry]

For adequate coil/uncoil, weight must get well onto front foot with flex in lead leg as foot comes down. Weight/center has to be controlled/metered/carried/shifted as opposed to sway.

Best info here is probably yeager CD

www.baseballscience.com

[jsiggy]

I lead ignorace too, what is this thing suppose to do?

Tom

Also, and I have been just scanning this thread, for I had surgery yesterday and muct get back to lying down, but are you folks saying that the weight must shift ONTO the front foot? If that's the case, I will need some serious explanations about that one! I'm under the impression that one frims the front leg and sorta hits against it with weight evenly distributed on contact. Correct me if I am wrong.

thanks

Tominct, conceptually it's similar to the Medicus Golf club if you've seen that. Not exactly in how it helps, but that without proper mechanics, you'll have issues swinging this thing.

What I saw were kids with misaligned swing planes were typically much less accurate hitting a ball with this than those with proper swing planes. (Although a couple of swing down hitters were quite accurate - but had no pop.) Also any hitters who "push" with the rear hand are in effect pushing the bathead - which doesn't work well with this bat for obvious reasons. It seems to help kids understand to whip the bathead by unhinging at the wrists vs. pushing/muscling it.

For cheapskates like me... I used to use an old extremely heavy duty rope (probably an 1" diameter and very he uses as well.

[wogdoggy]

Watch out on the follow through though especially if using it with kids. My kids all got a good safety warning after I knocked the crap outta myself on my first swing.)



j siggy can you post a clip of that? lol:laugh

[tominct]

You have to be carefull with this one. As you are striding out you are "falling" into your front leg. During this stride/fall your head might be moving forward, BUT staying centered between your legs. At the moment your front foot hits the ground, you should be starting the rotation of your back hip. (Picture of Bonds with both heels off the ground.)

Because of this "Falling", your weight is going to be shifting to the front. Now, as you are exploding your back hip around the front hip(by keeping the front foot closed) you NEED to be exploding into a STRAIGHT front leg.

If you look closely at some of these video clips, you will notice that upon complete hip rotation, at contact, the back foot will slide forward, OR come off the ground completely. The ONLY way the back foot can come off the ground is if 100% of the weight is on the front foot.

Ok, I agree with ALL of that, certainly. Is a swing with the back foot completely off the ground desirable? My son has a book callen=d something like The Greastest Baseball Photographs, and well,you can imagine it has some great shots. One is of Ted Williams blasting a grapefruit, very balanced, stiff front leg, one hi back toe, head over back knee, another has McGuire in his A's days, not looking so smooth as Teddy Ballgame, but in pretty much the same position, although not as tall. His bat was actually bending around the ball (the photographer got it right on contact). Now the only shot in the book that I can recall was of the Gonzalez kid who used to play for the Blue Jays (tampa bay now?) a lith hitting infielder (light in terms of MLB, not mere humans!). So is this a desirable effect, or should that back toe stay down?

Tom

[tominct]

Ok, I agree with ALL of that, certainly. Is a swing with the back foot completely off the ground desirable? My son has a book callen=d something like The Greastest Baseball Photographs, and well,you can imagine it has some great shots. One is of Ted Williams blasting a grapefruit, very balanced, stiff front leg, one hi back toe, head over back knee, another has McGuire in his A's days, not looking so smooth as Teddy Ballgame, but in pretty much the same position, although not as tall. His bat was actually bending around the ball (the photographer got it right on contact). Now the only shot in the book that I can recall was of the Gonzalez kid who used to play for the Blue Jays (tampa bay now?) a lith hitting infielder (light in terms of MLB, not mere humans!). So is this a desirable effect, or should that back toe stay down?

Tom

The only shot I can recall where the back foot is completely OFF THE GROUND....is what I meant to say! Sorry

[jsiggy]

For adequate coil/uncoil, weight must get well onto front foot with flex in lead leg as foot comes down. Weight/center has to be controlled/metered/carried/shifted as opposed to sway.

Best info here is probably yeager CD

www.baseballscience.com

Yeager's DVDs that Tom references is worthwhile to study, IMO. I don't agree with everything he says - I like Englishbey & Dixon better for describing what is happens here - but there is a lot of very good stuff there.

It's not an instructional DVD with drills, etc as you'll get with Englishbey, Epstein, or Mankin), so don't expect that. However it's a very nice detailed biomechanical analysis of the MLB lower body movements - explained in layman's terms. If you like improving your understanding of these kinds of things, you'll almost certainly get something out of it.

[jsiggy]

Ok, I agree with ALL of that, certainly. Is a swing with the back foot completely off the ground desirable? My son has a book callen=d something like The Greastest Baseball Photographs, and well,you can imagine it has some great shots. One is of Ted Williams blasting a grapefruit, very balanced, stiff front leg, one hi back toe, head over back knee, another has McGuire in his A's days, not looking so smooth as Teddy Ballgame, but in pretty much the same position, although not as tall. His bat was actually bending around the ball (the photographer got it right on contact). Now the only shot in the book that I can recall was of the Gonzalez kid who used to play for the Blue Jays (tampa bay now?) a lith hitting infielder (light in terms of MLB, not mere humans!). So is this a desirable effect, or should that back toe stay down?

Tom

Most MLBers rear foot will come up on the toe and/or briefly come off the ground. Here's Clemente - an extreme example:

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro/ClementeRoberto2.gif

However whether the foot comes off the ground doesn't matter. What does matter is that the weight is transferred to the front side and rotation is around the front hip joint. The rear foot can drag, come off the ground, whatever.

In other words, don't concentrate on the rear foot but on what's causing the foot movement - the foot movement is a reaction to the rotation.

[hiddengem]

In other words, don't concentrate on the rear foot but on what's causing the foot movement - the foot movement is a reaction to the rotation.

I was assuming that he would understand that the rear foot coming off the ground or sliding forward is just "what happens" with proper hip rotation (around the front hip).

Sorry, if I confused you.

[swingbuster]

siggy

what a great shot. Erik and I were talking tonight about reaction to a pitch location and how great athletes do what it takes to hit the ball

It seems he knew this ball was staying up and saw an opportunity to hit it long.

That is the biggest up adjustment to level off and still finish low I have ever seen

Thanks for sharing this. Can you email me that gif at info@swingbuster.com

It also shows how if you coil to get inside the target line in the preswing then the only way out of that is rotation. No matter how hard you dive into the ball your still rotating

[jsiggy]

what a great shot....


Yeah I thought of "Happy Gilmore" when I first saw this.


Thanks for sharing this. Can you email me that gif at info@swingbuster.com


I can... but can't you just right click and save it?

[jsiggy]

Hey what's going on here...

Just noticing that the discussion is about weight distribution in the "Training Aid" thread and training aids in the "Correct weight distribution" thread. :confused:

[WonderMonkey]

I haven't bought it because of the price. Made my own with an old wood bat - but my first attempt only lasted a month before some noticeable cracks showed up.



The manufacturer claims it "Teaches proper swing mechanics, builds strength, develops muscle memory, and identifies flaws with EVERY swing you take".

Dang, how can you beat that. :o

I saw some very good results with it during the short time I used it with several kids. It seems to require a pretty good swing. Disconnection between the body & bat and mismtaches of swing & momentum planes are felt. Hard to push that bat head or use a linear hand path. Kids seemed to learn to whip/flail the bathead better with it.

Wish it was cheaper as I worry about liability with a home made version.

(Watch out on the follow through though especially if using it with kids. My kids all got a good safety warning after I knocked the crap outta myself on my first swing.)

I like this bat so long as you know how to conduct drills with it. I originally just used their regular MetalWood bat then bought the hinged version. I took it out and used it myself for a bit before introducing it to my son. When I was confident I introduced it to a few kids on the team. I can say that for a player who pays attention to drills and is concious of mechanics it can have a great value. For a player who just sleepwalks through drills it is best to just let them use a regular wood bat.

I have a sports business so I was able to get a distributoship from MetalWood. I only use that distributorship for personal use (team etc) and fo those that have seen the bats and want them as well. I'd be willing to get you bats for my cost plus of course shipping if you want, no markup involved. Even with that they are still expensive.

[tominct]

I was assuming that he would understand that the rear foot coming off the ground or sliding forward is just "what happens" with proper hip rotation (around the front hip).

Sorry, if I confused you.

I'm not going to argue with anyone about this, I see your point HG. But Clemente IS an extreme case isn't it? His (in this gif) resembles a wiffle ball swing. Now I am to understand here that we teach the rotation and let the foot take care of itself, correct? Sounds fine to me.

Thanks all!

Hey HG, if you happen to run into Dave Roberts in spring training, tell him thanks for me!

[pgibbons]

jsiggy, I want to make one of those bats that you made. I assume you made it by cutting a standard bat and connecting the two pieces using standard hardware that I can get at my local hardware store? Anything else I should know before I go hacking up one of my bats?

Also, how the heck do you swing that thing without knocking yourself out?

[jsiggy]

jsiggy, I want to make one of those bats that you made. I assume you made it by cutting a standard bat and connecting the two pieces using standard hardware that I can get at my local hardware store? Anything else I should know before I go hacking up one of my bats?

Also, how the heck do you swing that thing without knocking yourself out?

I didn't do anything different. I used an old 34-32 bat and hardware similar to they have - two heavy duty eye screws and a single link between. To keep it the same length, you need to make 2 cuts on the bat - enough to remove the length of the eye screws and link.

But the lower part of my bat is splitting and after not that much usage, so my instructions may not be the best ones to follow.

A follow thru with a top hand release helps from whacking yourself.

[swingbuster]

A follow thru with a top hand release helps from whacking yourself.

I have been playing with that a la Pujols top hand release. I feel that it keeps you in the zone longer and bottom hand connected. I watch where he releases the top hand on this clip. I like the feel. Don't know if I could do it in real life. I plan to work more understanding it

http://home.comcast.net/~karla.mcnurlin/2b1b.gif