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Honus Wagner Rules
01-15-2006, 05:05 PM
We hardly ever discuss Tris Speaker. I think he more than derserves his own thread. He's one of the greats and he seems to be mostly forgotten. I'm sure Bill will have lots of input for this thread. :p

Short Bio:



Tristram E. Speaker (April 4, 1888 in Hubbard, Texas - December 8, 1958 in Lake Whitney, Texas), nicknamed “Spoke” (a play on his last name) and “Grey Eagle” (for his prematurely graying hair), was an American baseball player considered to be the best defensive center fielder to ever play the game. Speaker was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame during the second year of voting, 1937.

Pre-Professional Career
Tris Speaker was born on Wednesday, April 4, 1888 in Hubbard, Texas, Archie and Nancy Peer Speaker. He suffered a broken right arm in a fall from a horse so was forced to use his left hand for throwing. Eventually he became very comfortable with it and stayed a southpaw even when his right arm healed. Then his left arm was injured in a football accident. Surgeons advised amputation, but he refused. He recovered to become one of baseball’s great hitters and outfielders, a manager of a world’s championship team and seventh member of the game’s Hall of Fame. In 1905 Speaker played his one and only year of college baseball for Fort Worth Polytechnic Institute.


Professional Career

Minor Leagues
The indomitable will of young Speaker attracted a discerning baseball man, Doak Roberts, then owner of the Cleburne Railroaders, a Houston club of the Texas League, in the town of Cleburne in 1906. Speaker ended up batting .318 for the Railroaders. He wanted to be a professional ballplayer, but his mother opposed his being “sold into slavery.” She said she would never give her consent to her son’s going to Boston (named the Red Sox in 1907), even after he had made a success at Houston. Roberts had faith that young Speaker would make the grade, and he sold the youngster to the Sox for $800 – the Boston scout beating the St. Louis Browns by a mere half-hour.

Speaker played in 7 games for the Red Sox in 1907 getting 3 hits in 19 at bats for a .158 average. The following year, the Red Sox traded Speaker to the Little Rock Travelers of the Southern League in exchange for use of their facilities for spring training in 1908. Speaker ended up batting .350 for the Travelers and his contract was repurchased by the Red Sox. Speaker ended up making it into 31 games and got 26 hits in 116 at bats for a .224 average.


Major Leagues

The Early Years
Speaker finally won the regular starting centerfielders job in 1909 from the light hitting Denny Sullivan who ended up getting sold to the Cleveland Naps. The gamble paid off for the Red Sox when Speaker hit .309 in 143 games and the team finished third in the pennant race.

In 1910 the Red Sox signed Duffy Lewis (LF). Along with Speaker and Harry Hooper (RF) they would form Boston’s “Million-Dollar Outfield”, one of the finest outfield trios in baseball history. The outfield was broken up when Speaker was traded to the Cleveland Indians in 1916.

The Boston Red Sox finished second to Connie Mack’s Philadelphia A’s, with the formidable pitching trio of Jack Coombs, Chief Bender and Eddie Plank, the following two years.

Speaker’s best season came in 1912. The Red Sox opened the newly built Fenway Park on April 20, 1912. Speaker played in every one of the Red Sox' 153 games, leading the American League in doubles with 53, and home runs with 10. He set a career high with 222 hits, 136 runs, 580 at-bats, and 52 steals. He was at the top of his game. He batted .383, a mark he would surpass three times in his career, but his .567 slugging percentage was the highest of his dead ball days. Speaker set a major league record when he had three batting streaks of 20 (30, 23, 22) or more games during the season. In center field he helped the Red Sox pitching staff by stabbing line drives and throwing out greedy base runners. The Red Sox won the pennant by finished 14 games ahead of the Washington Senators and 15 games ahead of the Philadelphia A’s.

Snodgrass $30,000 Muff Costs Giants Victory
Speaker’s Red Sox faced off against John McGraw’s New York Giants in the 1912 World Series. The series was tied 3-3-1 going into game 8 on October 16, 1912. The game was tied going into the tenth inning. In the top of the tenth, Fred Merkle shook off some of the shame still on his shoulders from his supposed bonehead play in 1908. With Red Murray on second, he cracked a single to center. Speaker juggled the ball, allowing Murray to score. After the Giants were out, future Hall of Famer, Christy Mathewson strode to the mound to try and win the Giants' second World Series. Pinch hitter Clyde Engle led off the inning. He hit a routine fly ball out towards centerfield. Fred Snodgrass, a native of Ventura, California and the Giants dependable centerfielder of the last five years, trotted to the spot where he figured to catch the ball for the first out. But he didn't.

And now the ball settles. It is full and fair in the pouch of the padded glove of Snodgrass. But he is too eager to toss it to Murray and it dribbles to the ground.- NY Times, October 17th, 1912.

Perhaps as the NY Times article suggests, Snodgrass hurried the play. He later said, "I dropped the darn thing." With Engle on second, the recipient of one of the largest gifts New York has given to Boston, up came Harry Hooper. Mathewson was tiring and whatever pitch he came in with, Hooper ripped it out towards centerfield. The ball appeared to be headed over Snodgrass' head. If not caught, it would probably be a triple. But Snodgrass chased the ball down for the first out. Engle advanced to third.

Out of steam, Mathewson walked second baseman Steve Yerkes. The modern day fan would surely criticize McGraw for leaving his ace in, but that was the way things were back then in the dead ball era. You went with a guy like Mathewson. Speaker was up next. If ever there was a batter who deserved to be called dangerous, it was Speaker. Perhaps sensing Mathewson's weakening arm, he went after the first pitch. He popped it up though, a catchable ball between first and home in foul territory and close to the Red Sox dugout.

What happened next, or explaining why who did what, is difficult to completely ascertain. Some writers point the finger at Merkle, the Giants’ first baseman, who they believe should have made the play. Noel Hynd, author of The Giants of the Polo Grounds blames Mathewson for calling out to his catcher to make the play. In Merkle's defense, Giants’ catcher Chief Meyers said, "the Boston bench called for Matty to take it, and called for me to take it, and I think that confused Fred. He was afraid of a collision."

Harry Hooper, who was sitting on the Red Sox bench, said "Meyers didn't have a chance, but Matty kept calling for him to take it. If he'd called for Merkle, it would have been an easy out. Or Matty could have taken it himself. But he kept calling for Chief to take it, and poor Chief...lumbered down that line...and just missed it." In Mathewson's defense, Merkle, according to writer Hugh Fullerton who witnessed the play, "quit cold."

Regardless of whose fault it was, the Giants had given the Red Sox another out. Speaker knew it and taunted Mathewson. "Well, that's gonna cost you the ball game!" Speaker then backed up his claim by hitting the next pitch to centerfield. Engle scored the tying run and Yerkes went to third.

McGraw, knowing Mathweson was as capable as any pitcher of ushering up enough courage to get two more outs, stayed with his starter. Larry Gardner then hit a long fly ball to right field. Giants right fielder Josh Devore caught it, but his throw home was too far of a distance to catch Yerkes. The Red Sox claimed their second World Series. Speaker led his team with a .300 batting average, nine hits and four runs scored.

The New York press, needing to explain what happened in one headline, wrote: Snodgrass $30,000 muff costs Giants victory. Giants owner John T. Brush, needing to get away, hopped on a train for California. In ill-health, he never made it. After a stop in St. Louis, the Giants third owner passed away.

Speaker batted .338 in 1914 and .322 in 1915. The Red Sox beat the Philadelphia Phillies in the World Series, led by 18 game winner and team home run leader with 4, Babe Ruth, in his first full season.


Traded to the Indians
After the World Series victory, Speaker had a falling out with Red Sox president Joe Lannin, who wanted Speaker to take a pay cut from about $15,000 to about $9,000 since his average had fallen to a mere .322. Speaker refused and would not sign such a contract. On April 12, 1916 Lannin dealt Speaker to the Cleveland Indians for Sam Jones, Fred Thomas and $50,000.

The angry Speaker held out for $10,000 of that cash that Boston had received and eventually, with the aid of AL President Ban Johnson, got it. Speaker’s contract with Cleveland for $40,000 was the highest in baseball at the time. He averaged over .350 for ten of the next 11 years.

In 1916 Speaker finally ended Ty Cobb's amazing run of nine consecutive AL batting titles by batting .386 to Cobb’s .371. Speaker's return to Boston, May 9, 1916, was a unofficial tribute by the fans, over 15,000 showed up and roared with approval every time he came near the ball. Reacting without thinking at the end of one inning Speaker started towards the Boston dugout. The crowd went wild. His return is only spoiled because the Indians lose 5-1.

On September 1, 1917 in a game against the Tigers in Cleveland, Speaker was hit with the ball as he tried to steal home in the bottom of the first inning. Batter Joe Evans swung away and lined the ball of Speaker's face. Detroit manager Hughie Jennings, as a courtesy, allowed Speaker to sit out the second inning while his face was sewn up. Elmer Smith played center field until Tris returned in the third.

As a center fielder, Speaker played so shallowly for most hitters that he was like a fifth infielder, swift of foot, chasing down potential singles. Twice in 1918, he executed an unassisted double play at second base, snaring low line drives on the run and then beating base runners to the bag. At least once in his career he was credited as the pivot man in a routine double play! Bill Carrigan, a longtime teammate of Speaker's on the Red Sox, often times would send a pickoff throw from his catcher's position to Speaker who had snuck in on second base. In addition, as Indians' manager he insisted the team practice a play where he from center field would cover the keystone sack on bunt plays, thus freeing up his shortstop to cover third, and his third baseman to charge the bunts.

Speaker as Player/Manager
In Eugene Murdock's Baseball Players and Their Times (ISBN 0887362354), George Uhle discusses an incident that occurred in his rookie year with the Indians, in 1919:

"according to (Cleveland writer) Franklin Lewis, manager Lee Fohl had come to rely heavily on... Speaker for counsel on changing pitchers during a game. If Speaker thought a change would be made he would signal to Fohl in the dugout and also indicate who the replacement would be. In one game in mid-season when things were not going so well, Speaker signaled for a certain pitcher to be brought in from the bullpen. But Fohl misread Speaker's signal and brought in Fritz Coumbe instead of the man Speaker had intended. At first Speaker tried to correct the mistake, but then realized it would look like he was reversing the manager, so he let it pass. It so happened that Coumbe lost the game and that night Fohl resigned as manager and Speaker was named to replace him. Speaker felt badly about the incident because he felt he was the cause of Fohl's departure."

54 years later, Uhle remembered the incident, but couldn't say for sure if Speaker was making the changes because he was still quite new to the team at the time. However, he said it reminded him of another Coumbe story:

"I was sitting on the bench with Guy Morton one day when we were playing the Yankees. Coumbe was near by. Babe Ruth came up and got a hit. 'I know how to pitch to that big monkey,' Coumbe remarked. Well he was sent to the bullpen to warm up and later got into the game. 'Now we'll see,' said Morton, 'whether he can pitch to Ruth or not.' Well, Babe knocked the first pitch out of the park. Guy and I both got a big kick out of that and within a day or two, Coumbe was gone just like Fohl."

As it turns out, these two events happened in the same game. The Indians played the Red Sox on July 18, 1919. After Cleveland scored four times in the bottom of the 8th to take a 7-3 lead, Boston countered with a run and Coumbe came in to face Ruth with the bases loaded. The Babe unloaded them with his second homer of the game and the Sox won 8-7. The Sporting News reported that Coumbe cried like a baby and Fohl resigned after the game citing growing criticism from the fans. As the Indians had a history of managers quitting mid-season, TSN correspondent Henry P. Edwards stated that, although the resignation was unexpected, the only real surprise would have been if Speaker was not named manager.

In what many call the catch that won the pennant for the 1920 Indians, Speaker, his team playing a season-ending game with the Chicago White Sox, caught a screaming line drive hit to deep right-centerfield by Shoeless Joe Jackson. On the dead run, Speaker leaped with both feet off the ground and snared the ball before crashing into a concrete wall. Laying unconscious from the impact, he still had a viselike grip on the ball. In 1920 he guided the Indians to their first ever World Series Championship despite losing Ray Chapman towards the end of the season after he was killed after being hit by a pitch from Carl Mays.

Speaker singled off Senator pitcher Tom Zachary on May 17, 1925, to become the fifth member of the 3000 hit club and the second man to reach the historic mark while wearing a Cleveland uniform (Napoleon Lajoie was the first). Two years later, Tom Zachary's name would once again enter the annals of baseball, this time as the pitcher who gave up Babe Ruth's 60th home run of 1927.

He managed for 1137 games finishing 617-520 before “retiring” as a manager, but not as a player. This “retirement” was forced by AL President, Ban Johnson after a scandal involving gambling broke in 1926 in which Dutch Leonard claimed that Speaker and Ty Cobb fixed at least on Cleveland-Detroit game. Both Speaker and Cobb forced to “resign” as managers.

It seemed that Leonard was bitter about being let go from organized baseball in what he felt was a conspiracy by Speaker and Cobb. He used the game-fixing charges as a way to retaliate against the two men so that they would know what it would be like to be run out of the league. His plan failed as he was unable to convince either Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis or the public that the two had done anything for which they deserved to be kicked out of baseball.

When Leonard refuses to appear at the January 5, 1927 hearings to discuss his accusations, Landis clears both Speaker and Cobb of any wrong doing and reinstates with original teams, but each team let them know that they were free agents and could sign with whomever they wished. Speaker signed with the Washington Senators for 1927, Cobb with the Philadelphia Athletics. Speaker then joined Cobb in Philadelphia for the 1928 season where he only came to the plate 191 times and finished with a .267 average.

Post Professional Career
In 1929 Speaker replaced Walter Johnson as the manager of the Newark Bears of the International League, a post he held for two years. He became a part owner of the American Association. The announcement of Speaker’s election to the Baseball Hall of Fame was made in January, 1937. At the time he was in the wholesale liquor business in Cleveland and was chairman of the city’s Boxing Commission.

Speaker helped found the Cleveland Society for Crippled Children and Camp Cheerful. From 1947 to his death, Speaker was an advisor, coach, and scout for the Indians. He married Mary Frances Cudahy in 1925.

Cobb considered Speaker to be the best player he ever played against.

Tris Speaker died in Lake Whitney, Texas, at age of 70. He is buried in Section 1, Block 2 of the Fairview Cemetery, Hubbard, Hill County, Texas.

Records and Achievements
Most career doubles (793)
Fifth highest lifetime major-league batting average (.345)
Fifth in career hits
Sixth in career triples
Eighth in career runs
Led American League in batting 1 time
Led American League in slugging percentage 1 time
Led American League in on base percentage 4 times
Led American League in hits 1 time
Led American League in total bases 1 time
Led American League in doubles 8 times
Led American League in home runs 1 time
Led American League outfielders in putouts 7 times
Led American League outfielders in double plays 6 times
Led American League outfielders in assists 3 times
Led American League outfielders in fielding average 2 times
Batted over .380 five times
Stuck out only 220 times in 10,195 at-bats
In 1999, he ranked Number 27 on The Sporting News' list of the 100 Greatest Baseball Players, and was nominated as a finalist for the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.

Tris Speaker's wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tris_Speaker)

Bill Burgess
01-15-2006, 05:51 PM
I date all my baseball photos using the following book. (Baseball Uniforms of the 20th Century: The Official ML BB Guide, Researched, Illustrated & Written by Marc Okkonen, 1991, 1993)

Also, the following website, hostd by the Hall of Fame, mainly using the same book above, but also using images after 1993, has assisted me in dating some of the photos. http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/database.htm#database

On this photographic gallery, I have attempted, using the book above, to date all the photos. If I caption a photo with the following, John Smith, Cubs OF, 1910-13, that means that the photo was taken sometime between 1910-13, when the player was on the Cubs. It does NOT mean that the player was only on the Cubs in that time frame. He might have been on the Cubs from 1900-18, but the photo was only taken between 1910-13.
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If you enjoy this photo gallery, you might also like our other ones, too.

Historical, Archival Photographs (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=40306)---Pre-1900 (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102911-19th-Century-Historic-Photographic-Archive)---Negro L. (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102913-Negro-Leagues-Historic-Photographic-Archive)---Vintage Panoramic Pictures (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75607)---Members' Gallery (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102920-Members-Photo-Gallery)---Runningshoes Presents: Photo Op (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=46723)---Meet The Sports Writers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=57538)

Photos of the following individual players---Hank Aaron (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58318)---Pete Alexander (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54211)---Ty Cobb (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102826-Bill-s-Ty-Cobb-Photos)---Eddie Collins (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54920)---Sam Crawford (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=71637)---Jimmy Foxx (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=55628)---Lou Gehrig (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?104799-Lou-Gehrig-Photo-File)---Rickey Henderson (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54995)---Rogers Hornsby (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=56377)---Joe Jackson (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=1305036&highlight=Greenville#post1305036)---Walter Johnson (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54344)---Nap Lajoie (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=72124)---Connie Mack (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=59240)---John McGraw (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=68164)---Mickey Mantle (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=67997)---Christy Mathewson (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=33507)---Willie Mays (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=54723)---Mel Ott (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?104840-Mel-Ott-Photo-File)---Babe Ruth (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=21998&page=7)---George Sisler (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=960330#post960330)---Tris Speaker (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38504)---Pie Traynor (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=37345)---Rube Waddell (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?p=308179#post308179)--- Honus Wagner (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=13366)---Ted Williams (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=58624)---Zack Wheat (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?84754-Zack-Wheat-Thread)---Rare Ty Cobb (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102921-Rare-Ty-Cobb-pictures) ---Rare Babe Ruth (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=73654)---Bill's Babe Ruth (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?103022-Bill-s-Babe-Ruth-Photos)---Rare Ted Williams (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102923-Rare-Ted-Williams-pictures)---Bill's Rare Finds (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75602) ---Babefan's Fantastic Vintage Baseball photos (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102924-Fantastic-Vintage-Baseball-Photos-!)---GaryL's Boston Public Library Baseball Photo Project (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?103426-Boston-Public-Library-Baseball-Project)

We also have some very nice, attractive team photo collections---New York Yankees (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102934-The-New-York-Yankees-Team-Photo-Collection)---New York Giants (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102932-The-New-York-Giants-Baseball-s-1st-Dynasty)---Detroit Tigers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102937-Detroit-Tigers-Team-Photos-Collection)---Pittsburgh Pirates (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?102935-Pittsburgh-Pirates)---Brooklyn Dodgers (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=41860)

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Tris' Relative Stats:

Speaker----Rel.BA-------Rel.Onb--------Rel.Slg.-------OPS+-------Rel.ISO
-----------1.25.4 (10th)---1.23 (18th)---1.34 (25th)---158 (16th)------163

Tris' Home/Away Breakdown Splits:

---------At Bats---H-----2B---3B---HR-----R---RBI---BB-----BA----Onb----Slg.---TB
Home-----5,004--1,826---469--115----59---978--1826---713---.365---.449---.540---2,702
Away-----5,191--1,688---322--108----58---903-----?----668---.325---.408---.462---2,400
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Hitting Stats Comparison:

Speaker, Cobb, Wagner, Hornsby, Ruth, Gehrig, T. Williams, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, Lajoie, Musial, Collins, Crawford, J. Jackson, Wheat, Roush, Foxx, Clemente, Schmidt, Yaz, Anson, Bonds, B. Williams, Kiner, Killebrew, Rose, Gwynn, Kaline, Greenberg, Waner, R. Jackson, Boggs, Gehringer, Brouthers, Delahanty, Simmons, Mize, Brett, F. Robinson, Ashburn, Sisler, Snider, Banks, Molitor, Keeler, Bench, Terry, Henderson.



Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5
4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0

Cobb--------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11
2nd-league---3---3----4----4----2---2---2---2----7----3----1---1---3
3rd----------1---3----4----2----2---2---1---2----0----3----2---0---1
4th----------2---0----0----1----0---1---0---1----0----1----3---1---1
5th----------1---0----0----1----0---2---1---0----1----0----0---1---0
6th----------2---0----2----0----0---0---0---0----0----0----0---0---0

Wagner-------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6
2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2
3rd-----------0---5----3----2----0---2---2----4---2----2----2---0--2
4th-----------2---3----0----0----1---2---3----2---1----1----0---1--1
5th-----------1---1----1----0----2---1---1----2---2----0----0---0--0
6th-----------1---0----0----1----2---0---1----0---0----1----0---1--0

Hornsby-----BA---Hits-2B---3B--HR----R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---8----4----4----2---2----5---4----7----9----9----0---3--12
2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1
3rd----------1----1----1----1---3----0---2----0----1----1----0---0---0
4th----------1----3----4----0---1----2---0----0----0----1----0---2---0
5th----------0----0----0----0---5----0---0----0----0----1----0---0---0
6th----------0----0----0----1---1----0---1----1----1----0----0---2---1

Ruth---------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13
2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1
3rd-----------2----0----1----0----1---0---0----2----1----1----0---1---2
4th-----------1----3----0----0----0---0---3----0----2----0----0---0---0
5th-----------1----0----0----0----0---1---0----0----0----0----0---0---0
6th-----------0----2----1----1----0---1---1----0----0----0----0---0---0

Gehrig------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR--Runs--RBI--TB---OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
Led league---1----1----1----4----2----4----4----2----4----2---0---3--3
2nd league---2----3----0----0----4----2----4----3----2----4---0---2--6
3rd----------3----0----0----1----3----3----2----2----3----1---0---3--3
4th----------0----1----0----0----1----2----2----0----0----3---0---0--0
5th----------2----1----0----0----1----0----0----1----1----0---0---0--0
6th----------1----0----1----0----1----0----0----1----0----0---0---1--0

Ted Williams--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----6----0----2---0---4---6----4----6---12---8---0---8--9
2nd in league--2----1----2---0---4---1----2----0----0---1---0---1--1
3rd------------1----2----0---0---2---1----1----4----0---1---0---2--3
4th------------1----1----2---0---0---1----1----0----0---2---0---0--0
5th------------0----4----0---0---0---0----1----0----0---0---0---1--0
6th------------0----0----0---0---3---0----0----0----1---0---0---1--0

Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1
4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0
5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0
6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0
Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6
2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1
3rd-------------2----1----1---1----3---3----3----5---2---2---0---2--5
4th-------------0----0----0---0----1---0----2----1---1---2---1---1--2
5th-------------1----1----0---0----2---0----1----1---5---4---0---1--0
6th-------------1----2----2---0----2---2----2----0---1---0---0---3--1

Hank Aaron----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----2---2----4---0---4----3----4---8---0---4---0---0--3
2nd in league--0---3----2---2---4----1----0---2---2---5---1---1--4
3rd------------0---1----1---0---1----4----2---2---3---4---0---2--4
4th------------3---0----1---2---2----2----2---2---1---1---2---2--1
5th------------4---0----0---0---2----1----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
6th------------0---3----1---0---2----1----1---1---1---2---2---0--2

Joe DiMaggio---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA--SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------2---0----0---1---2---1----2----3---0----2---0---0--1
2nd in league---0---1----1---0---0---2----3----2---0----5---0---0--4
3rd-------------2---1----0---4---1---0----3----1---2----0---0---0--2
4th-------------0---2----1---0---5---0----1----1---3----0---0---0--0
5th-------------0---0----0---0---2---2----1----2---0----0---0---0--1
6th-------------0---1----1---0---1---1----1----0---0----1---0---0--0

Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3
2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3
3rd-----------1---1----1---0---1----0----2---0---1---2---0---0--0
4th-----------1---1----1---0---0----1----1---2---1---0---0---0--1
5th-----------0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0---0--0
6th-----------3---1----0---0---2----0----1---0---0---2---1---0--4

Stan Musial-BA--Hits-2B---3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
Led league---7---6----8----5---0---5----2----6---6---6----0---1--6
2nd league---2---3----3----1---1---4----0----2---7---3----0---0--4
3rd----------5---2----1----1---1---4----3----1---0---0----0---2--0
4th----------2---1----0----2---1---1----2----2---2---3----0---2--3
5th----------1---0----0----1---1---1----2----2---0---1----0---2--0
6th----------0---0----2----0---1---0----0----1---1---0----0---0--1

Ed Collins--BA--Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led League---0---0----0---0----0---3----0---0----0---0---4---1--0
2nd league---3---2----0---1----0---1----0---0----3---0---4---5--1
3rd----------0---1----0---0----0---2----1---1----7---1---2---2--2
4th----------5---1----1---0----0---2----0---0----2---0---2---2--2
5th----------2---3----0---1----0---0----1---3----2---1---1---1--3
6th----------1---1----0---2----0---1----0---1----1---2---1---1--0

Crawford----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----0----1---6---2----1----3----2---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---4----5----4---3---2----1----4----6---0---4---0---0--2
3rd----------1----4----0---3---2----0----2----2---0---3---0---0--4
4th----------2----0----1---0---1----1----2----1---2---1---0---0--3
5th----------0----2----0---0---3----2----1----2---2---2---0---0--0
6th----------1----0----2---3---1----0----2----1---1---0---1---0--1

J.Jackson---BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----2----1---3---0---0----0---2---1----1----0---0--0
2nd league---3----2----2---1---0---1----0---2---2----3----0---0--3
3rd league---2----2----2---2---1---2----1---1---0----1----0---1--2
4th----------2----2----0---1---0---1----4---1---3----2----0---0--1
5th----------0----0----0---0---1---0----0---0---1----2----0---0--3
6th----------0----0----0---0---0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0--0

Z. Wheat----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---1----0----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----1----0---0--0
2nd league---1----3----2---0---0---0----0---0----0----0----0---0--1
3rd league---2----2----1---0---0---1----2---0----0----1----0---0--1
4th----------2----0----0---0---1---0----0---0----2----2----0---0--1
5th----------1----1----0---2---2---0----1---0----1----1----0---0--2
6th----------0----0----0---1---2---1----2---0----0----0----0---0--1

Edd Roush--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----0----1---1---1---0----0---1---0----1----0---0--1
2nd league--2----0----1---2---0---0----1---0---0----0----1---0--1
3rd league--1----3----0---3---0---0----1---0---1----1----0---0--2
4th---------1----1----0---1---1---0----0---1---1----1----1---0--1
5th---------1----1----0---0---0---2----0---1---1----0----0---0--0
6th---------0----1----0---0---0---0----1---2---1----1----1---0--1

J. Foxx-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB--OPS+
led league---2-----0---0---0---4---1----3---3---3---5----0---2--5
2nd league---2-----1---0---0---3---2----0---1---3---1----0---1--2
3rd league---1-----2---0---0---2---1----3---0---3---2----0---3--0
4th----------0-----0---0---0---3---2----2---3---0---1----0---4--3
5th----------1-----0---0---0---0---1----0---1---2---2----0---0--1
6th----------0-----0---0---0---0---1----2---1---0---1----0---0--0

Clemente----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---4----2----0---1----0---0----0----0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---2----1----1---1----0---0----2----1---1---0---0---0--1
3rd league---1----1----0---2----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--1
4th----------2----1----0---1----0---2----0----0---1---0---0---0--0
5th----------1----1----1---4----0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0--0
6th----------0----1----2---1----0---0----0----0---3---1---0---0--1

Schmidt-----BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----0----0---0---8---1----4---3---3---5----0---4--6
2nd league---0----0----0---0---1---2----1---1---0---2----0---2--1
3rd league---0----0----0---0---2---6----4---0---0---2----0---3--2
4th----------1----0----0---0---1---0----0---1---3---3----0---3--1
5th----------0----0----0---0---0---0----0---4---1---0----0---0--1
6th----------0----0----0---0---1---1----0---0---0---0----0---1--0

Yaz----------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----3----2---3---0---1----3----1---2---5---3----0---2--4
2nd league----2----0---1---0---0----1----0---0---1---0----0---3--1
3rd league----0----0---2---1---1----1----1---0---1---0----0---1--0
4th-----------0----2---0---0---1----1----0---2---0---1----0---1--0
5th-----------0----1---0---0---0----1----1---0---0---0----0---2--0
6th-----------0----1---1---0---0----0----0---2---0---0----0---0--1

Anson-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs--RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----1----3--0---0-----0----8---1---4----0----0---1---1
2nd league--5----4----2--1---0-----0----3---2---5----4----0---1---2
3rd league--2----2----2--0---4-----0----3---2---1----1----0---1---1
4th---------1----0----2--0---1-----2----0---2---1----3----0---2---3
5th---------2----3----0--1---1-----2----0---0---2----1----0---0---3
6th---------0----0----1--0---0-----4----0---3---3----0----0---2---1

Bonds------BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----0----0--0---2---1----1---1---8----7----0--10---9
2nd league--0----0----0--0---5---3----1---0---3----1----0---4---3
3rd league--1----0----0--0---1---6----0---1---0----1----1---1---2
4th---------1----0----0--0---4---0----4---0---2----3----1---0---0
5th---------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---3---1----1----2---0---1
6th---------0----0----0--2---0---3----2---1---0----1----2---0---0

B. Williams--BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---1----0--0---0---1----0---3---0---1---0---0--1
2nd league----0---0----1--1---2---0----3---1---1---0---0---0--0
3rd league----0---3----3--1---3---0----0---1---0---2---0---0--1
4th-----------2---0----1--0---1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0--0
5th-----------0---1----0--1---0---2----0---1---0---0---0---0--0
6th-----------0---1----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---1---0---1--0

Kiner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0---0----0--0---7---1----1---1---1---3---0---3--0
2nd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----3---2---0---0---0---3--0
3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---1----1---0---2---1---0---0--0
4th league---1---0----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---2---0---1--2
5th----------1---0----0--0---1---1----1---0---0---0---0---0--0
6th----------0---1----0--0---0---0----1---0---2---0---0---1--0

Killebrew---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---0---0----0--0---6----0----3---0---1---1---0---4---0
2nd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---2---1---3---0---1---1
3rd league---0---0----0--0---2----1----2---4---2---4---0---3---2
4th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---0---5---0---0---1---5
5th----------1---0----0--0---2----0----0---2---2---2---0---1---2
6th----------0---0----0--0---0----1----1---1---0---0---0---0---0

Rose--------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---3---7---5--0---0---4----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
2nd league---2---5---2--2---0---3----0---1---1---0---0---0---0
3rd league---0---1---4--0---0---3----0---1---3---0---0---0---0
4th----------1---1---0--0---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
5th----------1---2---2--2---0---1----0---1---1---0---0---2---0
6th----------0---0---0--1---0---0----0---1---0---0---0---1---1

Gwynn------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league--8---7----0--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--0
2nd league--1---0----1--3---0----0----0---0----2---0---1---0--0
3rd league--2---1----1--0---0----0----0---1----0---0---0---0--1
4th---------1---0----1--0---0----1----0---0----1---0---0---0--1
5th---------1---0----0--1---0----0----0---0----2---0---0---0--0
6th---------0---0----0--0---0----0----1---0----0---0---1---0--1

Kaline-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB---OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league--1----1---1--0---0----0----0---1----0---1---0---0---1
2nd league--3----1---1--0---0----1----2---1----3---1---0---0---2
3rd league--2----1---1--0---0----0----0---0----2---1---0---0---1
4th---------1----1---0--1---0----0----0---2----0---1---1---0---1
5th---------0----0---2--1---0----1----1---0----2---1---0---1---0
6th---------0----1---1--1---0----1----1---1----0---1---1---1---0

Greenberg---BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0----0----2--0---4----1---4---2---0---1---0---2--0
2nd league---0----0----2--0---2----1---1---3---2---4---0---1--4
3rd league---0----0----1--1---0----1---1---1---2---2---0---0--1
4th----------0----1----0--0---0----1---1---0---0---0---0---0--2
5th----------1----1----0--1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0--0
6th----------1----1----0--0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0---3--0

Waner-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---3---2----2--2---0---2----1---1---0---0---0---0---0
2nd league---1---3----1--5---0---2----0---0---2---0---1---2---0
3rd league---0---1----1--0---0---0----0---1---2---1---0---1---1
4th----------3---1----2--1---0---1----0---2---1---2---0---1---4
5th----------1---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---0---0---0
6th----------0---2----1--0---0---1----0---1---2---0---0---0---1

R.Jackson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league----0---0----0--0---4----2---1---0---0---3---0---0---4
2nd league----0---0----3--0---3----0---0---3---0---2---0---1---1
3rd league----0---0----0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---0---0
4th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---1---1---1---0---0---1---1
5th-----------0---0----1--0---2----2---0---0---1---2---0---1---1
6th-----------0---0----0--0---0----0---3---0---2---1---0---0---1

Boggs--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---5----1----2--0---0---2----0---0---6---0---0---1--1
2nd league---1----5----3--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---0--2
3rd league---2----0----2--0---0---1----0---0---1---1---0---3--0
4th----------1----2----1--0---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
5th----------2----0----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---0---2--0
6th----------0----0----0--0---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--1

Gehringer---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR---Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---1---2----2--1---0----2----0---0---0---0---1---0--0
2nd league---1---2----2--1---0----1----0---0---2---0---1---0--0
3rd league---0---0----1--1---0----3----0---0---0---0---0---1--0
4th----------1---0----2--0---0----1----0---2---1---0---0---1--0
5th----------2---3----0--1---0----2----1---0---1---0---0---2--0
6th----------0---0----0--0---0----0----0---4---1---0---0---1--1

Brouthers----BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----5---3----3---1---2----2---2---4---5---7---0---0--8
2nd league----1---2----2---4---1----0---2---2---5---3---0---0--1
3rd league----2---1----1---2---2----1---1---1---0---0---0---0--2
4th-----------1---1----2---1---0----0---1---1---1---0---0---2--0
5th-----------1---2----0---1---2----1---1---0---1---0---0---0--0
6th-----------0---0----1---0---0----0---1---3---0---0---0---0--0

Delahanty----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---1----5--1---2---0----3---2---2---5---1---0--4
2nd league----3---1----3--0---0---0----2---2---1---2---0---0--3
3rd league----2---1----2--2---1---1----1---2---2---1---0---0--1
4th-----------2---2----1--0---2---1----0---1---0---1---0---2--1
5th-----------0---1----0--0---1---2----1---0---2---1---0---0--1
6th-----------2---0----0--2---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---2--1

Mize---------BA-Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league----1---0---1--1---4---1----3---3---0---4---0---0---2
2nd league----2---0---1--0---2---1----1---4---2---3---0---0---5
3rd league----0---3---1--2---1---2----3---0---1---2---0---2---2
4th-----------0---0---0--0---1---0----0---0---1---0---0---0---0
5th-----------3---1---0--1---1---1----1---0---2---0---0---1---0
6th-----------0---2---0--0---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---1---0

Brett-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---3---3----2--3---0----0---0---1---3---3---0---0---3
2nd league---2---0----2--1---0----1---1---2---1---0---0---0---0
3rd league---0---0----2--0---0----1---0---0---1---0---0---1---0
4th----------0---0----1--1---0----1---0---1---1---1---0---0---0
5th----------0---1----1--1---0----1---1---1---0---1---0---0---2
6th----------2---0----0--2---0----0---1---0---1---2---0---0---0

F.Robinson---BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---0----1--0---1----3---1---1---2---4---0---0--4
2nd league----2---2----0--0---2----2---4---1---6---1---0---1--1
3rd league----1---1----3--1---3----0---2---1---0---0---1---1--1
4th-----------1---0----1--0---3----1---0---3---3---5---1---2--1
5th-----------1---0----0--0---2----2---1---0---0---1---0---1--7
6th-----------2---1----2--0---1----1---0---1---0---1---1---0--1

Ashburn-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---2---3----0--2---0---0----0---0---4---0---1---4---0
2nd league---2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---2---0
3rd league---0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---1---0---0---1---0
4th----------0---0----1--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---1---0---0
5th----------0---1----1--3---0---2----0---0---1---0---2---1---1
6th----------2---3----0--0---0---2----0---0---0---0---2---1---0

Sisler-------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----2---2----0--2---0---1----0---2---0---0---4---0--0
2nd league----1---1----1--2---2---2----1---1---1---2---2---0--1
3rd league----2---3----1--1---0---0----0---1---1---0---0---0--2
4th-----------2---3----1--0---0---1----1---1---0---2---0---0--1
5th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---3---1---2---1---0--1
6th-----------0---0----0--0---0---0----2---0---1---0---1---0--1

Snider------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB--OPS+
led league---0----1---0--0---1----3---1---3---1---2---0---1---1
2nd league---0----1---2--0---1----1---1---1---1---2---0---0---1
3rd league---2----1---2--2---1----0---1---0---2---0---0---1---2
4th----------1----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---0---1---0
5th----------1----0---0--0---0----0---0---3---0---1---1---1---0
6th----------0----0---0--0---1----1---1---0---0---1---1---1---1

Simmons-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---2---2----0--0---0----1---1---2---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---2---0----2--0---1----2---2---2---0---3---0---0--0
3rd league---1---3----0--0---2----0---2---1---0---3---0---0--2
4th----------3---3----0--0---1----0---1---1---0---0---0---0--1
5th----------0---0----0--0---3----0---2---1---0---2---0---0--1
6th----------0---0----0--1---1----0---1---0---1---0---0---0--1

Banks--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---1---0---1---0---0--0
2nd league----0---0----0--1---2---2----0---1---0---1---0---0--1
3rd league----0---0----0--0---2---0----2---3---0---0---0---0--0
4th-----------0---1----1--0---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--1
5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----1---0---0---2---0---0--2
6th-----------1---0----0--0---1---0----1---1---0---0---0---0--0

Bench------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league--0---0----0--0---2---0----3---1---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league--0---0----1--0---1---1----1---1---0---0---0---0--1
3rd league--0---0----2--0---0---0----1---1---0---2---0---1--0
4th---------0---0----0--0---1---0----0---0---0---2---0---0--0
5th---------0---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
6th---------0---0----1--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---0---0--0

Molitor-----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league---0---3----1--1---0---3----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league---2---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---1---0---0---0--0
3rd league---1---2----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---1---0--1
4th----------1---2----0--0---0---1----0---1---0---0---2---0--0
5th----------2---1----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---1---0---0--0
6th----------3---0----0--0---0---0----0---0---0---0---2---0--1

Terry--------BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1---1----0--1---0---1----0---0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league----3---3----0--0---0---1----0---2---0---0---0---0--0
3rd league----0---1----1--1---1---0----1---0---0---1---0---0--0
4th-----------2---1----0--2---1---0----0---2---1---0---0---0--2
5th-----------0---0----1--1---0---0----2---0---2---1---0---0--1
6th-----------1---0----0--0---0---2----1---0---0---0---0---0--0

Keeler-----BA---Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
led league--2----3----0--0---0----1---0---0---0---0---0---0--0
2nd league--2----5----0--0---0----5---0---1---1---1---0---0--1
3rd league--1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---2---0---0---0--0
4th---------3----2----0--1---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--1
5th---------1----1----0--0---0----1---0---1---0---0---1---0--0
6th---------1----0----0--1---0----1---0---2---1---0---0---0--0

Henderson----BA--Hits-2B-3B--HR--Runs-RBI-TB--OBA-SLG--SB-BB--OPS+
led league----0---1----0--0---0----5---0---0---1---0---12--4---1
2nd league----1---0----0--1---0----1---0---0---2---1----0--2---1
3rd league----0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---6---0----0--1---0
4th-----------2---0----0--0---0----3---0---0---1---0----2--5---0
5th-----------0---0----0--0---0----1---0---0---2---0----1--0---0
6th-----------0---0----0--0---1----0---0---1---1---0----2--1---


------------------Tris Speaker, Indians' CF, 1916,--------------------------------------------------------------Red Sox' CF, 1912-15, Braves Park---Speaker Thread/Photos (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38504)---BB Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/speaktr01.shtml)
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/2011-12-20_103434.jpghttp://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image25-15.jpg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Red Sox CF, 1911-15

----------------------Tris Speaker, 1909, Road--------------------------Red Sox, 1915, Road
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image16-15.jpg

-----Tris Speaker, Red Sox CF, 1913----------------------1913---------------------------Cleveland CF/Mgr., 1922-26
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image8-7-1.jpg

--------------Tris Speaker, Red Sox' CF, September 28, 1912
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image19-7-1.jpg

------Tris Speaker, Red Sox CF, 1912-15------------------Young Tris
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image2-38.jpg

1912-14--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1912-14
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image22-17.jpg

Source: Left: Sporting News Presents Heroes of the Hall: Baseball's all-time best, by Ron Smith, 2002, pp. 436.

---Tris Speaker, Cleveland CF/Mgr., 1920, black armband in tribute to Ray Chapman------------Red Sox, CF, 1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image13-14-1.jpg

----------------------------Red Sox, 1912-14--------------------------------------------------------Cleveland, 1917-18.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image4-23-1.jpg

------------------------Indians' 1918------------------------------------------------------------Red Sox, March 5, 1914
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image27-8.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[B]Tris' Family Genealogy:

SA30 = still alive by 1930
DB58 = died by 1958



-------------------------------------born-------born-died---------age------born-------died
Tristram Speaker---------------------Apr. 4-----1889-1958---Dec.9 70 Hubbard, TX Hubbard, TX
Nancy Jane (Poer) Speaker (Mother)---Oct.-------1845-1930---My.22 84 Georgia
Archery Oscar Speaker (Father)-----------------1852-1898 Ohio
Pearl J. (Speaker) Scott (sister)----Apr.-------1882-SA58 Texas
Alma (Speaker) Lindsey (sister)-----------------SA30-SA58
Ina A. (Speaker) (sister)------------Apr.-------1886-DB58 Texas
Murray Loyd Speaker (brother)-------Feb.3------1884-D18-30 Texas
Elais E. (Speaker) (sister)----------Dec.-------1876-DB58 Texas
Maude (sister)----------------------------------SA30-DB58
Gypsie (sister)---------------------------------SA30-DB58
Mary Francis (Cudfoju) Speaker-------Dec.9------1889-1960----Nov.1 m. Jan. 15, 1925 Cleveland, OH

Honus Wagner Rules
01-15-2006, 06:00 PM
Bill, Did Speaker have any children?

Bill Burgess
01-15-2006, 06:18 PM
Tris' Post-Baseball Career:

1929-30 - Newark
1931 - Selective Service Board (volunteer job)
1931-33 - Chicago announcer: White Sox/Cubs
1933 - Kansas City Blues (bought w/ 2 partners)
Jan.23, 1934 - International Distilleries & Wineries, Inc (Cleveland)
1935-38 - Cleveland chairman of Boxing Commission
April 11, 1937 - He fell off his 2nd floor porch
1937-44 - Rotary Electric Steel Company of Detroit (Ohio was his territory)
1937 - Cleveland announcer
1947-52 - Cleveland Indians coach at spring training & Daytona Beach
1949 - Cleveland announder
July, 1954 - heart attack
1957 - Cleveland Indians batting coach

Source: Baseball Between the Wars, by Bill Hageman, 2001, pp. 67. (Corbis)

Tris Speaker/His Mother: Indians' CF/Mgr., World Series, October 12, 1920
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image6-27.jpg

1915: Harry Hooper, Tris Speaker, Duffy Lewis:
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image10-29.jpg

1915: Duffy Lewis, Tris Speaker, Harry Hooper
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Duffy2520Lewis252C2520Tris2520Speak.jpg

July 24, 1911: Joe Jackson, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker pose at Addie Joss' Death Benefit Game.
At that moment, they were likely the 3 greatest players in the game. All OFers from the South.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image2-39.jpg

Source: Detroit News newspaper photo collection. (http://dlxs.lib.wayne.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?rgn1=All%20Categories;med=1;c=vmc;size=20;page =search;view=thumbnail)
-------------------------------------------------------1917-18
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Triiss2520Speaker.jpg
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image4-25.jpg

----------------------Cleveland, 1916-17
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image5-20.jpg

Washington Senators, 1927
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image20-11.jpg

----------1912-15
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image10-28.jpg

Bill Burgess
01-15-2006, 07:34 PM
Did Speaker have any children?
Not to my knowledge. Or his probably.

------------------------------------------1910-11----------------------------------------------------------------1917-18
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/Image40-5-1.jpg

Tris Speaker, Indians' CF, 1922,---BB-Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/speaktr01.shtml)
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/2011-12-20_103508.jpghttp://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv217/BillBurgess/Player%20Tributes/2011-12-20_103553.jpg

Honus Wagner Rules
01-15-2006, 11:36 PM
Bill,

In the BJHBA, James mentioned that there were rumors that Speaker was a member of the KKK in the 1920s. James said this might be possible given that in the 1920s the KKK had a large populist base of non-racist support. But James said he didn't know or have any evidence. Have you read about this?

wamby
01-16-2006, 01:13 AM
Bill,

In the BJHBA, James mentioned that there were rumors that Speaker was a member of the KKK in the 1920s. James said this might be possible given that in the 1920s the KKK had a large populist base of non-racist support. But James said he didn't know or have any evidence. Have you read about this?

According to Charles Alexander's biography of Rogers Hornsby, the 1920s Klan was heavy into recruiting celebrities and athletes. He mentions Speaker as a member.

I've read in at least two different sources that Speaker had troubles on both the Red Sox and Indians because of anti-Catholic feelings.

In Fenway, Peter Golenbock opined that one of the reasons Speaker was traded from the Red Sox was that there was a schism on the between Catholic and Protestant players. I don't have the book here so I can't report on any of the details.

In The Pitch That Killed, Mike Sowell writes that in the days after Ray Chapman's death, Speaker was not able to attend Chapman's funeral because Speaker had suffered a nervous breakdown. Sowell says that players told a different story. Apparently, there had been a major disagreement among the Indians players about the funeral arrangements. Chapman was a Protestant, but his wife was a Catholic and she wanted Chapman given a Catholic service. This apparently led to a physical altercation between Speaker and Steve O'Neil and maybe Jack Graney, who was Chapman's best friend on the team. Bill Wambganss is quoted as saying: "Speaker was a very bigoted man at the time."

runningshoes
01-16-2006, 01:34 AM
I always thought the phrase "where triples go to die" refereed to the glove of Joe Jackson, but from what I understand now, it was originally attributed to Speaker's.

runningshoes
01-16-2006, 05:14 AM
From Wikipedia:


In 1905 Speaker played his one and only year of college baseball for Fort Worth Polytechnic Institute.

My source, Red Sox Century by Glenn Stout and Richard Johnson claims Speaker spent two years in Fort Worth.


His pitching prowess nd academic standing gained him admission to Fort Worth Polytechnic Institute in 1905, where he played for two years before being offered his first professional contract. - page 80.

I know Wikipedia, with much of its content coming from its user, is widely know for it's erroneous errors.

Just wanted to let you know, Honus before we start using unreliable sources and giving false information.

Troy

runningshoes
01-16-2006, 05:24 AM
This is my favourite non-baseball picture of Speaker. He's, obviously, riding an alligator during spring training in Hot Springs, Arkansas around 1912.

He was a real character.


http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/102.jpg

runningshoes
01-16-2006, 06:21 AM
Many casual fans probably don't know this, but Tris Speaker did not begin his career as an outfielder.


Like fellow Red Sox greats Babe Ruth and Ted Williams, Speaker started his baseball career as a pitcher. At age ten, he broke his right arm working on the ranch and, while recuperating, learned to throw lefthanded, becoming virtually ambidextrous. His pitching prowess and academic standing gained him admission to Forth Worth Polytechnic Institute in 1905, where he played for two years before being offered his first professional contract.

His baseball apprenticeship reads like a tale from American folklore. For the sum of a single dollar - train fare from Hubbard City to Cleburne, Texas - Speaker became a professional. He pocketed the dollar and hopped a freight train instead, arriving in Cleburne only moments before his first game. Manager Ben Shelton, scowled at the rookie and informed him he was his starting picture.

Despite lack of rest, Speaker pitched well, but lost 2-1. He lived up to his reputation by chewing up his manager and picking a fight with his second baseman over a costly error.

Despite his competitiveness, or perhaps because of it, Speaker soon made a name for himself. Impatient with his antics and spotty mound performance, Shelton irrevocably altered the course of Speaker's career and the history of the Red Sox by deciding to teach the brash lefthander a lesson. He left Speaker on the mound in a game in which he eventually yielded twenty-two runs. Speaker later recalled, “That game convinced everybody, including me, that I was an outfielder.“ – Thus began the career of the greatest all around outfielder of the Dead Ball – and possibly any other - era.

From Red Sox Century by Glenn Stout and Richard A. Johnson - page 80

Bill Burgess
01-16-2006, 09:09 AM
I have no knowledge of either Speaker, Hornsby or Cobb having ever been members of the KKK, although many have speculated, due to their being Southerners, and having attitudes about race.

Honus Wagner Rules
01-16-2006, 10:19 AM
From Wikipedia:

My source, Red Sox Century by Glenn Stout and Richard Johnson claims Speaker spent two years in Fort Worth.

I know Wikipedia, with much of its content coming from its user, is widely know for it's erroneous errors.

Just wanted to let you know, Honus before we start using unreliable sources and giving false information.

Troy
Thanks, Troy.

Wikipedia's quality is up and down. However the wikipedia page for Speaker is heavily referenced at the bottom of the page, with many references and direct links to those references. I didn't have time to read all of them. My bad. :o

Honus Wagner Rules
01-16-2006, 10:22 AM
I have no knowledge of either Speaker, Hornsby or Cobb having ever been members of the KKK, although many have speculated, due to their being Southerners, and having attitudes about race.
I would think that if they were members that the KKK would have been "bragging" about have such famous athletes as member. I'll check out the BJHBA again.

Brian McKenna
01-16-2006, 10:34 AM
According to Charles Alexander's biography of Rogers Hornsby, the 1920s Klan was heavy into recruiting celebrities and athletes. He mentions Speaker as a member.


chapman's wife said that ray was planning on converting when he died and she wanted him to be buried in a Catholic cemetary - speaker hit the roof and a melee broke out with the teammates - in the end he had a Catholic service but a Protestant burial - his wife and daughter are buried in a Catholic cemetary

runningshoes
01-16-2006, 10:39 AM
Thanks, Troy.

Wikipedia's quality is up and down. However the wikipedia page for Speaker is heavily referenced at the bottom of the page, with many references and direct links to those references. I didn't have time to read all of them. My bad. :o

No need to thank me, I would expect no less from you when I post incorrect info, which, with my scattered brain, is bound to happen sooner than later. :D

KCGHOST
01-16-2006, 11:22 AM
The latest biography of Speaker - "Tris Speaker: The Rough and Tumble Times of a Baseball Legend" by Timothy Gay does not paint a flattering picture of Speaker the person. He comes across as a non-sociopathic version of Ty Cobb. Speaker was virulently racist and just as opposed to Catholics.

I have read 75% of the book and I am just getting to the chapter which will discus Dutch Leonard's charge that Speaker and Cobb fixed some ball games. I am sure that Gay will conclude that was the case form everything he has said to this point.

The author has not offered a clear reason why the strongly anti-Catholic Speaker would take up with a Catholic woman and eventually marry her in a Catholic ceremony. Nor do I expect any revelations as to why Speaker, the staunch racist, was so helpful to Larry Doby.

Brian McKenna
01-16-2006, 12:52 PM
gay is pretty harsh in all his assessments - particularly when it comes to the motives of other people - especially those in management positions - this is typical of american culture

he doesn't offer too much insight into the cobb-speaker affair (funny i'm only a chapter ahead in the book) - particularly as to speaker's motives other than he was a frequent gambler

i envy alexander and otterstad who are free and secure to make such extensive travels for the work that in the end won't provide a huge windfall - it is particularly difficult to gain personal details of old ballplayers - especially those who starred before 1920

wamby
01-16-2006, 01:41 PM
chapman's wife said that ray was planning on converting when he died and she wanted him to be buried in a Catholic cemetary - speaker hit the roof and a melee broke out with the teammates - in the end he had a Catholic service but a Protestant burial - his wife and daughter are buried in a Catholic cemetary

Chapman is buried in Lake View Cemetary along with many of Cleveland's finest. His wife and daughter are buried in Calvary Cemetary, where I beleive my grandmother is buried.

wamby
01-16-2006, 01:47 PM
The latest biography of Speaker - "Tris Speaker: The Rough and Tumble Times of a Baseball Legend" by Timothy Gay does not paint a flattering picture of Speaker the person. He comes across as a non-sociopathic version of Ty Cobb. Speaker was virulently racist and just as opposed to Catholics.

I have read 75% of the book and I am just getting to the chapter which will discus Dutch Leonard's charge that Speaker and Cobb fixed some ball games. I am sure that Gay will conclude that was the case form everything he has said to this point.

The author has not offered a clear reason why the strongly anti-Catholic Speaker would take up with a Catholic woman and eventually marry her in a Catholic ceremony. Nor do I expect any revelations as to why Speaker, the staunch racist, was so helpful to Larry Doby.

Charles Alexander's bigoraphy of Rogers Hornsby references the fact that Hornsby did not like minority ballplayers. But when Horhsby was a manager, this did not stop him from working with minority players who he thought had the talent and the drive to succeed (most notably Jim Rivera). Whether Speaker was a racist or not this may have been the reason that Speaker was so helpful to Doby. Speaker may have been more concerned with his potential as a ballplayer than his race.

Honus Wagner Rules
01-16-2006, 01:49 PM
Charles Alexander's bigoraphy of Rogers Hornsby references the fact that Hornsby did not like minority ballplayers. But when Horhsby was a manager, this did not stop him from working with minority players who he thought had the talent and the drive to succeed (most notably Jim Rivera). Whether Speaker was a racist or not this may have been the reason that Speaker was so helpful to Doby. Speaker may have been more concerned with his potential as a ballplayer than his race.
It's quite possible that Speaker changed his views on blacks in his later years. People can and do change.

wamby
01-16-2006, 01:55 PM
It's quite possible that Speaker changed his views on blacks in his later years. People can and do change.

That's possible of course, but based on my experiences with people who grew up in the era that Speaker player played in, I don't think it's that common.

Honus Wagner Rules
01-16-2006, 02:09 PM
That's possible of course, but based on my experiences with people who grew up in the era that Speaker player played in, I don't think it's that common.
wamby, How old are you? 90? Most ofthe poeple who grew up in Speaker's era are long dead. :laugh

wamby
01-16-2006, 02:26 PM
wamby, How old are you? 90? Most ofthe poeple who grew up in Speaker's era are long dead. :laugh

I'm 41. The people that I refered to were my grandparents and their contempories. People born between 1910 and 1920. The majority of whom were not exactly progressive in their views on race relations.

oscargamblesfro
01-16-2006, 02:38 PM
There's a book on the Red Sox, published in the 70's, if memory serves, that I used to own by an author named Ellery Clark, which asserts that the Protestant Speaker and Wood often tangled with Bill Carrigan and other members of the Sox over religious affiliations, Carrigan was Catholic. This is just a guess, but in my view,Speaker and Wood, being rural Southern/ lower Midwest boys, may have felt uncomfortable in an Eastern city well known as dominated by Irish Catholics.

oscargamblesfro
01-16-2006, 02:44 PM
The latest biography of Speaker - "Tris Speaker: The Rough and Tumble Times of a Baseball Legend" by Timothy Gay does not paint a flattering picture of Speaker the person. He comes across as a non-sociopathic version of Ty Cobb. Speaker was virulently racist and just as opposed to Catholics.

I have read 75% of the book and I am just getting to the chapter which will discus Dutch Leonard's charge that Speaker and Cobb fixed some ball games. I am sure that Gay will conclude that was the case form everything he has said to this point.

The author has not offered a clear reason why the strongly anti-Catholic Speaker would take up with a Catholic woman and eventually marry her in a Catholic ceremony. Nor do I expect any revelations as to why Speaker, the staunch racist, was so helpful to Larry Doby.


Regarding your last paragraph, KC GHOST, sometimes weird things like that occur. For instance, don't know how many of you have heard of the 20's horror writer H.P Lovecraft, but he hated Jews, Blacks, Italians, basically anyone who wasn't a WASP, and yet he was married to a Jewish woman for several years. Some people strangely indulge in such hypocritical behavior. Later on he recanted and denounced such foolishness. Perhaps Speaker did so later in life as well?

Brian McKenna
01-16-2006, 03:15 PM
I'm 41. The people that I refered to were my grandparents and their contempories. People born between 1910 and 1920. The majority of whom were not exactly progressive in their views on race relations.

did your grandparents openly discriminate against people on their job or out in public?

i believe either you changed in baseball after 1947 or you eventually found your employment opprtunities drying up

Brian McKenna
01-16-2006, 03:16 PM
There's a book on the Red Sox, published in the 70's, if memory serves, that I used to own by an author named Ellery Clark, which asserts that the Protestant Speaker and Wood often tangled with Bill Carrigan and other members of the Sox over religious affiliations, Carrigan was Catholic. This is just a guess, but in my view,Speaker and Wood, being rural Southern/ lower Midwest boys, may have felt uncomfortable in an Eastern city well known as dominated by Irish Catholics.

carrigan was nicknamed "rough" and he wasn't about to take any crap either

KCGHOST
01-16-2006, 03:21 PM
I think it is pretty clear that Speaker mellowed on the issue of race when it came to ballplayers by the late 1940's. I would be very surprised if his overall view had changed.

Unless Tris had an epiphany of some kind I cannot grasp him taking up with a Catholic woman. That would just seem so hypocritical.

Brian McKenna
01-16-2006, 03:29 PM
i've never heard someone comment that another's choice in a spouse was hypocritical

Ubiquitous
01-16-2006, 04:07 PM
Roy Cohn was power hungry and used homosexuality as weapon much like he used communism in the McCarthy era. Him being a homeosexual was not a reversal of his beliefs. He did not hate gays and then become one. He labeled others and accused others of being gay to gain and weild power and to knock those that had power down.

Cohn would not be an example who held a view and overtime softened that view.

Again though Cohn was never against homosexuality. He was a homosexual his whole life and he wasn't very private about it. He understood that accusing someone of being a homosexual had power and could be used to manipulate those who care about there public persona.

For Speaker one would have to argue that Speakers views on Catholics were merely window dressing. That possibly he himself was a catholic or that at the very least he understood bashing catholics would give him power. For Speaker I don't that is the case.

Speakers views and Cohn tactical use of the label "Homo" are two very different subjects.

I still don't see it. I don't see a similarity between Cohn loathing homosexuals but being a homosexual and Speaker hating catholics but marrying a catholic.
Religion is a choice and the hatred or love of that religion is a choice as well. Speaker chose to marry a catholic despite the fact that he hates Catholics in general.

Cohn was a homosexual all his life and he did not choose to be homosexual despite his "loathing" for homosexuals. And that is if he even loathed homosexual any more then he loathed anybody else that wasn't him.

I can't see how Cohn tolerated someone from a walk of life he despised.

johnny
01-16-2006, 04:44 PM
In the great Ray Chapman book 'The Pitch That Killed' by Mike Sowell, released a few years ago there is the story about Tris and another Cleveland player tangling over the issue of religion. It happened right after Chapman's death. Does anyone have the details.

runningshoes
01-16-2006, 04:52 PM
http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/133.jpg http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/134.jpg http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/136.jpg

Brian McKenna
01-16-2006, 05:38 PM
Regarding principles:

It's been my experience, that whenever principles come into conflict with what one wants, principles usually lose.

I am not surprised that even if one dislikes strongly something, if something comes along with overwhelming attraction, exceptions are almost always made.

good point - especially when we are talking about the opposite sex

wamby
01-16-2006, 06:57 PM
did your grandparents openly discriminate against people on their job or out in public?

i believe either you changed in baseball after 1947 or you eventually found your employment opprtunities drying up

Did my grandparents discriminate in public? Yes they did. My current situation perobably has them spinning in their graves.

As far as changing in baseball after 1947: I think a lot of it dependedn on what city and/or team you worked for.

As far as Speaker taking up with a Catholic woman: I agree with Bill on that one.

I beleive that guys like Speaker and Hornsby were big enough competitors that they would assist a player they deemed worth their attention whatever their feelings regarding the players race, creed etc.

Brian McKenna
01-16-2006, 07:13 PM
In regards to Tris Speaker, isn't he one of the ballplayers alleged to have once been a member of the Klan. If so, has that ever been substantiated or is that more like urban myth?

click page one of this thread and you will see discussions from both of your posts that were already addressed

Babe is the best
01-16-2006, 08:42 PM
Well, I would rate Tris Speaker as one of the top ten position players of all time. He would be my 2nd team all time center fielder, behind Willie Mays.

Bill Burgess
01-16-2006, 10:28 PM
Hitting Stats:

Speaker, Wagner, Mays, Hornsby, Cobb, Ruth, Lajoie



Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5
4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0

Wagner-------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB--OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----8---2----7----3----0---2---5----7---4----6----5---0--6
2nd league----2---2----1----3----1---2---2----1---1----3----0---0--2
3rd-----------0---5----3----2----0---2---2----4---2----2----2---0--2
4th-----------2---3----0----0----1---2---3----2---1----1----0---1--1
5th-----------1---1----1----0----2---1---1----2---2----0----0---0--0
6th-----------1---0----0----1----2---0---1----0---0----1----0---1--0

Willie Mays----BA---Hits-2B--3B---HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------1----1----0---3----4---2----0----3---2---5---4---1--6
2nd in league---3----1----1---1----1---5----2----5---1---3---0---1--1
3rd-------------2----1----1---1----3---3----3----5---2---2---0---2--5
4th-------------0----0----0---0----1---0----2----1---1---2---1---1--2
5th-------------1----1----0---0----2---0----1----1---5---4---0---1--0
6th-------------1----2----2---0----2---2----2----0---1---0---0---3--1

Hornsby-----BA---Hits-2B---3B--HR----R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league---8----4----4----2---7----7---3----7----9----9----0---3--12
2nd league---2----1----1----1---2----1---1----2----1----1----0---1---1
3rd----------1----1----1----1---3----0---2----0----1----1----0---0---0
4th----------1----3----4----0---1----2---0----0----0----1----0---2---0
5th----------0----0----0----0---5----0---0----0----0----1----0---0---0
6th----------0----0----0----1---1----0---1----1----1----0----0---2---1

Cobb--------BA--Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI-TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league--12---8----3----4----1---5---4---6----7----8----6---0--11
2nd-league---3---3----4----4----2---2---2---2----7----3----1---1---3
3rd----------1---3----4----2----2---2---1---2----0----3----2---0---1
4th----------2---0----0----1----0---1---0---1----0----1----3---1---1
5th----------1---0----0----1----0---2---1---0----1----0----0---1---0
6th----------2---0----2----0----0---0---0---0----0----0----0---0---0

Ruth---------BA---Hits-2B---3B---HR---R--RBI--TB---OBA--SLG--SB--BB-OPS+
led league----1----0----1----0---12---8---6----6----9---13----0--11--13
2nd league----2----0----1----0----2---1---2--- 3----2----1----0---1---1
3rd-----------2----0----1----0----1---0---0----2----1----1----0---1---2
4th-----------1----3----0----0----0---0---3----0----2----0----0---0---0
5th-----------1----0----0----0----0---1---0----0----0----0----0---0---0
6th-----------0----2----1----1----0---1---1----0----0----0----0---0---0

Nap Lajoie---BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs--RBI-TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league----3---4----5---0---1----1----3---4---2---4---0---0--3
2nd in league-3---0----4---1---0----1----1---2---2---3---0---0--3
3rd-----------1---1----1---0---1----0----2---0---1---2---0---0--0
4th-----------1---1----1---0---0----1----1---2---1---0---0---0--1
5th-----------0---1----0---0---0----0----1---0---1---0---0---0--0
6th-----------3---1----0---0---2----0----1---0---0---2---1---0--4

runningshoes
01-16-2006, 10:34 PM
1928

http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/137.jpg

Brian McKenna
01-17-2006, 12:15 AM
just got to the part of gay's bio that says indeed speaker was a member of the kkk - but gay says he was probably just a "social" member - whatever that means

he also says that frank baker, gabby street and rogers hornsby were in the klan

wamby
01-17-2006, 12:44 AM
I wonderif he'd be willing to make his source available.

Regarding Speaker and Hornsby: Charles Alexander referenced Fred Lieb's Baseball As I Have Known It. Lieb claimed that Speaker and Hornsby told him (Lieb) that they were Klan members.

Brian McKenna
01-17-2006, 12:57 AM
I wonder if he'd be willing to make his source available.

he covers such info in his chapter notes - but not that topic

johnny
01-17-2006, 08:27 AM
Back in the twenties -especially after the movie by DW Griffith came out which glamorized the Klan- it was much more open/accepted. The KKK actually hit it's peak in terms of size/popularity. Not only in the south but also in places like Indiana.
When you consider that ballplayers are drawn from the general population it doesn't make it too hard a leap to consider that some players were also members.
Supreme Ct. Justice Black and Senator Byrd were former members.

csh19792001
01-17-2006, 10:22 AM
The latest biography of Speaker - "Tris Speaker: The Rough and Tumble Times of a Baseball Legend" by Timothy Gay does not paint a flattering picture of Speaker the person. He comes across as a non-sociopathic version of Ty Cobb. Speaker was virulently racist and just as opposed to Catholics.


Also in the midst of reading that brand new biopic. I don't believe I'm incorrect in saying that the author conveys that Speaker reformed (and softened) his beliefs on race and race relations quite a bit during his lifetime. His tutelage of Larry Doby is well known.

It is certainly true that Speaker was involved in the ongoing Catholic-Protestant schism, but such was the tide of the times. He wasn't alone (or nearly alone) in his difficulty; in fact, it wasn't just Boston- most teams were divided along sociocultural and/or relgious lines. Factions were the rule, not the exception, and as such I don't believe it speaks to his individual character or persona.

Lesser known is that Speaker, perhaps the greatest outfielder of all time, learned how to field not from some visionary outfielder, but largely from the venerable Cy Young. Young became the mentor, hitting Speaker fungoes by the hundreds and sharing his universe of baseball knowledge with his new student.

The Reed Browning Cy Young bio is on board.

Honus Wagner Rules
01-17-2006, 10:25 AM
Also in the midst of reading that brand new biopic. I don't believe I'm incorrect in saying that the author conveys that Speaker reformed (and softened) his beliefs on race and race relations quite a bit during his lifetime. His tutelage of Larry Doby is well known.

Great stuff csh! I never knew Cy Young taught Speaker...

Bill Burgess
01-17-2006, 04:57 PM
Mantle/Speaker:

I'll take Spoke in a heartbeat. He was, after Wagner/Mays possibly the premier offensive/defensive combo player in history.

Not only was his defense obviously so much superior, but his hitting was second only to Ty for his career. His running was also top notch, he lasted so much longer, and his last 1/3 of his career was accomplished while managing. He also led his team to a WS victory his first year at the helm.

Many of Tris' black ink, league leads were absorbed like a blotter by Cobb, in much the same way as The Babe absorbed most of Lou Gehrig's league leads.

Their respective Ink totals comprise:

Mickey Mantle: 65 Black, 272 grey
Tris Speaker: 34 Black, 346 grey

No only did Tris have to contend with Cobb, but Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins, Babe Ruth, Frank Baker, Nap Lajoie, George Sisler, Sam Crawford, Harry Heilmann, Bobby Veach, Ken Williams, Joe Sewell, Sam Rice, Bob Fothergill, Baby Doll Jacobson, Bucky Harris, Jimmy Dykes, Tillie Walker, Johnny Bassler & Al Wingo. They were not competitively inferior to Mickey's elite top end.

At the end of Tris' tenure, he had to contend with Lou Gehrig, Jimmy Foxx, Joe Hauser, Tony Lazerri, Bob Meusel, Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane, Bing Miller, Leon "Goose" Goslin, Heinie Manush, Charlie Gehringer, Lew Fonseca.

Mantle did not have to contend with Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Snider, Rose, Billy Williams, Musial, Frank Robinson, Banks, Snider, Ralph Kiner, Big Klu, Eddie Mathews, Wally Moon, Vada Pinson, Tommy Davis, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, Junior Gilliam, Dick Groat, Red Schoendienst, Gil Hodges, Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey, J. Robinson, Campanella, Ashburn, and later, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Billy Williams, Felippe Alou, Willie Stargell, Richie Allen, Tony Perez.

Mickey had Williams, Kaline, Yaz, Oliva, Berra, Maris, Killebrew, Allison, Aparicio, Fox, Minoso, Cash, Colavito, Rosen, Kuenn, Doby, Sievers, Jensen, Powell, Brooks, Frank Robinson, Kell, Conigiliaro.

Mickey also didn't have to take his swings against the best of his era; Spahn, Robin Roberts, Ford (team mate), Marichal, Bob Gibson, Jim Maloney, Don Drysdale, Veale, Roy Face, Lew Burdette, Curt Simmons, Harvey Haddix, Johnny Antonelli, Vern Law, Bob Purkey, Johnny Podres, Joe Nuxhall, Don Newcombe, Koufax, Ron Perranoski, Bob Veale, Dick Ellsworth, Chris Short, Bob Friend, Niekro, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Ferguson Jenkins, Jerry Koosman, Dock Ellis.

The Mick did have to swing against Bob Lemon, Camilo Pascual, Mike Garcia, Herb Score, Bob Feller, Herb Score, Sam McDowell, Milt Pappas, Jim Kaat, Early Wynn, Billy Pierce, Frank Lary, Jim Bunning [with Det til 64], Dick Radatz, Peters, Horlen, Bobby Shantz, Mickey Lolich, Denny McLain, Jim Palmer, Virgil Trucks, Don Mossi, Chuck Stobbs, Jim Perry, Jim "Mudcat" Grant, Hank Agurrie, Jim Longborg, Dick Donnovan, Mike McCormack, Moe Drubosky, Tommy John, Paul Foytack, Dean Chance, "Blue Moon" Odum, Satchiel Page, Hoyt Wilhelm.

And the level of pitching that Tris had to cope with was not inferior to that which Mickey had to deal with.

Tris' pitchers: W. Johnson, Eddie Cicotte, Carl Mays, Doc White, Nick Altrock, Babe Ruth, Urban Shocker, Ed Walsh, Rube Waddell, Cy Young, Addie Joss, Herb Pennock, Sam Jones, Dutch Leonard, Jack Coombs, Chief Bender, Eddie Plank, Joe Wood, Jack Chesbro, Jim Bagby, Bullet Joe Bush, Waite Hoyt, Red Faber, Bob Shawkey, Ray Caldwell, Ray Collins, George Mogridge, Earl Hamilton, George Uhle, Stan Coveleskie. Later on he faced Eddie Rommel, Red Ruffing, Ted Lyons, and even Lefty Grove for 3 seasons.



Mickey Mantle--BA---Hits-2B--3B--HR---Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league------1----1----0---1---4----6----1----3---3---4---0---5--8
2nd in league---1----0----1---0---3----2----3----4---5---0---0---3--3
3rd-------------1----0----0---0---2----1----1----2---1---2---0---2--1
4th-------------2----2----0---1---0----0----0----1---2---0---2---0--0
5th-------------0----0----0---0---1----0----2----0---0---0---0---0--0
6th-------------0----0----0---1---0----1----3----0---1---1---0---1--0


Tris Speaker--BA--Hits-2B--3B--HR--Runs-RBI--TB--OBA-SLG-SB--BB-OPS+
Led league-----1---2----8---0---1---0----0----1---4---1---0---0--1
2nd in league--2---1----3---1---2---4----1----3---3---2---0---1--4
3rd------------7---2----1---1---0---2----1----2---4---4---1---0--5
4th------------2---4----0---0---2---2----2----3---3---4---1---4--3
5th------------1---2----0---0---0---0----0----1---1---2---3---2--3
6th------------1---0----1---1---0---2----0----0---0---1---1---3--0


Bill Burgess

johnny
01-17-2006, 05:42 PM
Just curious, I have always heard that Larry Doby was a class act.
It would be great if we had some quotes or thoughts from the late Mr. Doby on the subject of Tris Speaker.

Honus Wagner Rules
01-18-2006, 01:14 AM
What I like these general thread is to become is more of an exploration of the man and not just the player. We can only have so many Ty/Wagner, Wagner/Mays, Speaker/Mantle sabermetric debates. In the end, they are not as interesting as looking at the man. I'm just learning that Speaker had a surly and racist personality to say the least. But he apparently changed by the time Doby reached the majors. I find that very interesting.

Honus Wagner Rules
01-18-2006, 01:15 AM
Bill,

How did I know you would pick the Grey Eagle over the Commerce Comet? :laugh :laugh
--------------------
Bill Burgess:
Guess you could call it Enlightened Serendipity. You're a right-on kind of guy.

Ubiquitous
01-18-2006, 10:31 AM
Discussing the KKK, who joined, its role in society, and the way society viewed the KKK is absolutely relevant to Tris Speaker. If one merely says Tris Speaker was a member of the KKK and left it at that, then it would be an over-simplification of what has happening in American society during Speakers life.

mordeci
01-19-2006, 01:46 PM
I've asked this before but never got a response. Does anyone know what number(s) Speaker wore in his managing/coaching days?

Running Shoes:
Speaker managed the Indians from 1919 to 1926 and they didn't start wearing numbers until 1931 when Roger Peckinpaugh donned number ten.

Mordeci:
I knew he didn't wear a number in his player/manager days, but I assume he did later as manager of the Newark Bears and/or coach with the Indians.

Cyclone792
01-29-2006, 11:21 AM
To everyone who has read Timothy Gay's new bio on Speaker, what are your thoughts? It's getting outstanding reviews on Amazon and I'm curious if other Fever members agree with the takes on Amazon.

I haven't picked it up yet, but am considering doing so, though unfortunately I haven't seen it in any local bookstore. I'm planning on waiting until Dellinger's book on Roush/Black Sox and Carney's book on the Black Sox came out and just order them all at the same time and was curious if Gay's book on Speaker is a worthy addition.
----------------
bkmckenna:
i give it a thumbs up
--------------
csh19792001:
It's a very good read, Cyclone. Goes into a great deal of historical depth about not just Speaker but many of his famous contemporaries and their relationship w/Spoke.
-----------------
Cyclone792:
Thanks for the responses, guys. Looks like I'm gonna have to check it out soon!
---------------

Bill Burgess
02-01-2006, 07:16 AM
The following list of prominent BB figures all selected Cobb/Speaker/Ruth as their All-Time OF, followed by the year of selection of their teams. Thought it might be interesting.

Tris Speaker

Ban Johnson, 29
Walter Johnson, 34
Hugh Fullerton, Jan,36
Joe McCarthy, 36
John B. Foster,Aug.38
E.A. Batchelor, 39
Jimmy Burke, 40
John Coughlin, 41
Billy Evans, Aug.42
Joe Jackson,July,42
Waite Hoyt, 42
Ed Rumill, 42
Henry Edwards, 42
Nick Altrock, 42
Del Baker, 42
Dolly Stark, 42
Cy Young, 43
Grant Rice, 43
Tom Yawkey, 45
Ford Frick, 45
Ernie Lanigan, 46
Westbr. Pegler, 47
Warren Brown, 47
Joe Williams, Apr.49
Connie Mack, 50
Harry Salinger, 50
Ed Barrow, 50
Gordon Cobbledick,52
Walter Briggs, 52
Clark Griffith, 52
George Sisler, 53
Dan Daniel, 53
Bill McGowan, 54
Frank Graham, 54
Frank Baker, 55
Ed Burkholder, 55
Arthur Daley, 58
Fred Clarke, 61
Mickey Cochrane,61
Ed Bang, 62
Rogers Hornsby, 63
Jimmy Dykes, 66
Al Schacht, 71
Fred Lieb, 77
George Kelly, 84
Frank Ellerbe, 85
Doc Cramer, 85
Billy Rogell, 85
Riggs Stevenson, 85
Whitey Witt, 85
Jocko Conlon, 85
Joe Sewell, 85
Luke Sewell, 87
Charley Gehringer,87
Billy Wambsgnass,87
Buck Jordan, 87

Bill Burgess
02-02-2006, 06:50 PM
Lesser known is that Speaker, perhaps the greatest outfielder of all time, learned how to field not from some visionary outfielder, but largely from the venerable Cy Young. Young became the mentor, hitting Speaker fungoes by the hundreds and sharing his universe of baseball knowledge with his new student.
Cy Young Was Tris Speaker's Idol:

"Cy Young," said Speaker. "We didn't see any big-league ball-players down around Hubbard, Texas, where I was born and reared, but that didn't stop us from bing interested in the big-league teams and players. My favorite team was the Red Sox and my favorite player was Young, who was a sweet pitcher, believe me.

"And here's the strangest--and best--part of the story. When I was sold by Little Rock to the Red Sox in 1908, Young still was pitching for them, and when I reported he was the first to greet me and show a friendly interest in me. In those days a busher breaking in generally had no friends. He was figuratively--and sometimes literally--pushed around and made to feel by the other players that he wasn't wanted, and I got plenty of pushing around from the Red Sox.

"But Young and Lou Criger, his battery mate, took me in hand. I went to live at the same apartment-hotel where they lived, and the aid and encouragement they game me, both on and off the field, helped me tremendously to put myself over." (The Heroes" Heroes, by Frank Graham, The Literary Digest, January 2, 1932)

Brian McKenna
02-08-2006, 01:05 PM
the push to eliminate all shine ball, spitball and emery ball deliveries stemmed from a 1917 beaning of speaker by chicago pitcher danforth - of course the white sox were doing well in 1917 which sparked clark griffith, in particular, to kick up a fuss over the beaning since he held much of chicago's success to freak deliveries - ban johnson, in response, issued the ban on august 26, 1917 - of course mcgraw, a national leaguer, had to cause a fuss and he wanted a ruling by the national commission allowing the shine ball in the world series - as it turned out to his detriment

american league umpires were slow to enforce rule

Brian McKenna
02-11-2006, 01:38 PM
speaker's only pitching performance:

Bill Burgess
02-14-2006, 04:24 PM
Got this email today from Tim Gay. Thought you'd enjoy it too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, Bill, it's Tim Gay, the Tris Speaker biographer, writing from my home email. Trust all is well. Just now happened to google the book and up popped one William Burgess, moderator of the Tris Speaker thread on Baseball Fever. Very much enjoyed the commentary on Spoke and the kind words about the book.

Hope you spotted your name in the Acknowledgements. Very much appreciate your help -and the rest of the baseball history/SABR community. Wouldn't have been possible without you.

You're welcome to share this with the rest of the "Thread" gang. There are two significant things to note about Speaker and his flirtation with the Klan. First, for a guy who was good at everything he ever attempted, Speaker was a truly lousy Klansman. He married an Irish-Catholic immigrant girl (in a cathedral, no less!), befriended two Jews (his buddies Lefty Weisman and Sam Tobowsky in Hubbard0, and bonded so closely with Larry Doby that Doby saluted Spoke when he was inducted into the Hall - fully 50 years after Tris' death. Second, Spoke stopped "bragging" on his Klan affiliation later in life. The onset of fascism and World War II may well have opened Spoke's eyes - it did for a lot of people back then. Doby fought in that war - a fact that wasn't lost on Speaker.

Spoke was a genius. And like all geniuses, he had more than his share of flaws. But man, what a center fielder! We'll never see his likes again. Thanks, all.
---------------------------
Four Tool:
WOW! Thanks for sharing that Bill. Maybe you are the man after all. You keep great company.
----------------------------------
Bill Burgess:
I haven't seen the book yet, but I will definitely buy it. Did Tim mention me in his acknowledgments, anyone?

What did he say?
---------------------------------

Sultan_1895-1948
02-16-2006, 12:37 PM
Any thoughts on Speakers top 5 seasons?

How far in front is '23 when he was 35 years old?
----------------------
Bill Burgess:
I'd say 1912 was his best and 1916 not far behind. Anyone else have any thoughts?
---------------------------------
Sultan:
Thanks Bill. So taking everything into account, would you rank '23 in his top 5 or not?
-----------------------------
Bill Burgess:
I just looked up his 1923 season and it was sure one of his best. Competes with 1912 as his best.
-----------------------
Four Tool:
Got to be '23 or '24--they are pretty close
---------------------------------
Wamby:
Speaker's best season was 1920 when he played and managed the Indians to a world championship despite the death of Ray Chapman.
--------------------------
Four Tool:
Not his best on the field, maybe his best counting defense, offense and managing.
---------------------

Honus Wagner Rules
02-19-2006, 02:31 AM
Just wondering is there any film of Speaker playing? Everyone has raved about his defense for almost 100 years so I just wanted to see for myself what all the hoopla has been about.

Wesley Fricks
03-06-2006, 04:14 AM
Fort Worth Star-Telegram - Mar 05 2:40 PM

By Ray Buck
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

A baseball great's life stirs fuss.

Tris Speaker has rested in peace since 1958.

Recently, his memory has kicked up quite a fuss in tiny Hubbard --
Speaker's hometown -- about 75 miles southeast of Fort Worth in Hill
County.

Tris Speaker: The Rough-and-Tumble Life of a Baseball Legend has
sparked a controversy between the ballplayer's descendants and the
book's author, Timothy M. Gay.

In trying to portray a man whom Babe Ruth called the greatest center
fielder he ever saw, Gay has woven a poignant story that records both
accomplishments and foibles of a Hall of Famer who played 22 seasons,
mostly with the Red Sox and Indians.
Speaker was player-manager when Cleveland won the 1920 World Series.
He retired eight years later.

He was inducted into Cooperstown in 1937. He belonged alongside Cobb,
Ruth, Wagner, Johnson and Mathewson in the charter-member Class
of '36.

"There's only one way to do justice to Speaker's life and legacy --
and that's warts and all," Gay said. "Sadly, he has fallen through
the cracks of baseball history."

Gay came up with a lively, 314-page effort.

Speaker descendants resent just about every paragraph of it.
"I probably knew Uncle Tris -- man to man -- better than anyone still
living," said Scott Riddle, Speaker's 68-year-old great-nephew, now a
Hubbard rancher/Waco insurance man.

"It's not just the 'Scandal' chapter. The book is full of untruths.
It's unbelievable."

Gay contends "every fact and assertion is carefully documented,"
after spending five years researching and writing the book.

Most baseball historians know the story of Speaker and Ty Cobb
allegedly conspiring to fix a Tigers-Indians game during the final
week of the 1919 season ... or roughly seven days before the start of
the World Series, aka the Black Sox Scandal.

"Sure, I asked him about that story," said Riddle. "He called it
ridiculous."

Gay has unearthed more than one wart on Speaker's résumé. As a boy,
young Tris supposedly was sympathetic to the Ku Klux Klan.
"He was no racist," Riddle said.

In '98, Larry Doby, the American League's "Jackie Robinson," used his
HOF acceptance speech to salute Speaker for helping him make the
transition from second base to center field with the '47 Indians.
Incidentally, Gay has been invited by the Hubbard Chamber of Commerce
to give the keynote speech at a March 25 banquet.

Gay will attend.

Riddle won't.

Bill Burgess
03-06-2006, 07:42 AM
Wow. I didn't know that the Speaker family was that disturbed by the book. I haven't gotten it yet and don't know what it has in it.

Wesley. What do you think bothered them the most? Was it the racist stuff, or just the scandal chapter? Or is there more?

Bill

Brian McKenna
03-06-2006, 08:20 AM
gay didn't sugar coat anything but hey if that is where the facts led him - such a book would naturally upset the family - how much firsthand research did the family do to refute anything gay said?

unless any family is left that is significantly older than 70, their 50-year old memories would have been of an old man - one who apparently mellowed over time - oral family history and the recollections of an old man looking back and telling his story may indeed veer from some facts discovered by a historian decades later - so which one has more validity? documented, firsthand accounts or family rememberances? - who would write a bio and give the family editorial control?

speaker didn't even meet larry doby until he was nearly 60 years old - does that say anything about speaker's race relation from say 1888-1940? - i don't know but surely a 20-year old man in 1908 could be different from the same man 50 years later in 1958

johnny
03-06-2006, 11:14 AM
gay didn't sugar coat anything but hey if that is where the facts led him - such a book would naturally upset the family - how much firsthand research did the family do to refute anything gay said?

unless any family is left that is significantly older than 70, their 50-year old memories would have been of an old man - one who apparently mellowed over time - oral family history and the recollections of an old man looking back and telling his story may indeed veer from some facts discovered by a historian decades later - so which one has more validity? documented, firsthand accounts or family rememberances? - who would write a bio and give the family editorial control?

speaker didn't even meet larry doby until he was nearly 60 years old - does that say anything about speaker's race relation from say 1888-1940? - i don't know but surely a 20-year old man in 1908 could be different from the same man 50 years later in 1958

I think your spot on here.
In many ways, I think it is impressive for someone to grow in terms of outlook. So the fact that Tris had racist views that changed tell me something about the man that is more impressive then his ability to go back on a fly ball. It should, in fact, be celebrated. Larry Doby -by all accounts- was a class act and the fact that he said such laudatory comments on Tris is great.

Bill Burgess
03-07-2006, 06:30 PM
Tris Speaker's All-Time Team
AL OF (1907-28)
Sporting News, January 6, 1944, pp. 7, col. 3.


1B - H. Chase
2B - E. Collins
3B - J. Collins
SS - H. Wagner
LF - B. Ruth
CF - J. Jackson
RF - T. Cobb
C - M. Cochrane
P - W. Johnson

Bill Burgess
03-19-2006, 05:06 PM
I'd like to get some feedback from the book. Anyone care to give a detailed book report? Any details which were not common knowledge? How many here already have the book?

Bill

julusnc
03-22-2006, 06:02 PM
I really enjoyed the book but there was nothing really new to be discovered but the book was well written and the cast of characters from the early days of baseball were all assembled.Some nice photos as well.

Blackout
06-20-2006, 10:16 PM
is it true that Speaker was a racist?

Brian McKenna
06-21-2006, 08:47 AM
is it true that Speaker was a racist?

been covered extensively in this thread - check out tim gay's book and others soon to come out

Blackout
06-21-2006, 09:51 AM
thanks

did speaker ever play barnstorm games against negro league teams? i'm going to guess no, but even Cobb did when the money was right.

Bill Burgess
06-21-2006, 03:10 PM
Perhaps someone who has read the book might enlighten the rest of us?

Anyone game?

Bill

Honus Wagner Rules
06-21-2006, 04:00 PM
is it true that Speaker was a racist?
By what standards are we going to judge whether someone is racist? Certainly someone like Cobb did and said things that by today's standards are considered racist, but were these things considered racist by 1910s standards? :confused:

Bill Burgess
06-21-2006, 04:19 PM
In 1905 Georgia, the n_ word was probably not even thought of as a bad or inappropriate word. Even invented a hybrid word, 'nigra', as if that softened the effect. Was probably used in polite conversation. The racism might have been so heavily-indoctrinated into blacks, that their own self-image was nowhere near what it became later, with a lot of hard work.

Bill

Blackout
07-01-2006, 04:43 PM
did speaker play in any known exhibition games against negro leaguers?

wamby
07-01-2006, 05:58 PM
By what standards are we going to judge whether someone is racist? Certainly someone like Cobb did and said things that by today's standards are considered racist, but were these things considered racist by 1910s standards? :confused:

By todays standards, a guy like Bob Feller may even be considered racist, but during his playing days he was seen as pretty progressive in his views of racial matters.

wamby
07-01-2006, 05:59 PM
In 1905 Georgia, the n_ word was probably not even thought of as a bad or inappropriate word.
Bill

In Cobb's time, it probably wasn't considered innappropriate anywhere.

wamby
07-01-2006, 06:02 PM
is it true that Speaker was a racist?

Speaker did a lot of good work with Larry Doby when Doby was moved out to the outfield in spring training of 1948. I think Speaker either began to change with the times or his love of talent outweighed his feelings of prejudice.

I've read in several sources that Speaker seemed mainly prejudiced against Catholics and this was a major reason that the Red Sox got rid of him.

Bill Burgess
07-01-2006, 06:15 PM
Didn't Tris marry a Catholic girl and have a successful marriage with her?

wamby
07-01-2006, 06:17 PM
Didn't Tris marry a Catholic girl and had a successful marriage with her?

I believe he did. Prejudice is a very tricky thing. I know a few people who don't like blacks, but like my wife. Go figure.

Bill Burgess
07-01-2006, 06:21 PM
If prejudice is irrational, than I can imagine it being very selective, and full of exceptions.

I have a saying. "Principle is fine until it conflicts with what we want", and then it generally loses to desire.

Bill

Bill Burgess
08-03-2006, 11:57 PM
So Bill, what do YOU think on this obviously important subject? You heard Timothy Gay's shocking revelations, straight out of my mouth, word for word, over the phone. SHOULD Speaker and Hooper be expelled from the Hall, and Joe Wood--obviously the biggest villain of the whole hideous piece--be permanently disqualified from the Hall--for their roles in throwing Game 6 of the 1912 World Series?

I know this isn't the place for this question. But I'm deliberately not making it into an independent thread because I'm not sure I want them outed that thoroughly.

BHN
OK. You're calling me out on this rather sensitive subject. And since you've been refreshingly candid, I'll reply in kind.

I do NOT feel that Speaker/Hooper should be expelled from the Hall, even considering the accusations to be true. Too much time has gone by, and one game does not, nor ever could, possibly outweigh a long and glorious career. I do object to Harry Hooper ever being elected to the Hall of Fame in the first place. His career was of a very good player, but not a Famer, IMHO.

As far as I know, Tris participated in throwing Game 6 of the 1912 WS, and bet on a game at the end of 1919, on his team to lose.

At the time he bet, there was no rule against betting, and there was no attempt to pre-arrange the outcome. Cobb/Wood/Speaker/Leonard all all bet $2,000. on the game in question, on the Tigers to win and the Indians to lose.

So, I vote an emphatic NO to expelling either Speaker/Hooper or banning Wood, who doesn't qualify in any case.

Have I been clear on this?

Bill

BaseballHistoryNut
08-04-2006, 01:28 AM
Yes.

And I wouldn't have dreamed of suggesting anyone be expelled for the 1919 game. But throwing Game 6 of the World Series is, as I'm sure you'll agree, 20 light years apart from throwing a meaningless game at the end of a regular season.

All the same, thank you for your considered answer.

I hope you realize I was only asking your opinion. As far as I know, I like(d) Tris Speaker better than you do, and I certainly wasn't out to gore any favorites of yours. I honestly don't know, Bill, what you mean about my "calling you out." A great many people don't put Speaker in their Top 10--far more than do so. I've always had him in my Top 10, and probably will continue to do so, despite his having committed the ultimate sin.

Jim

BaseballHistoryNut
08-04-2006, 02:04 AM
By what standards are we going to judge whether someone is racist? Certainly someone like Cobb did and said things that by today's standards are considered racist, but were these things considered racist by 1910s standards? :confused:

Speaker was a rabid racist--just like Cobb, plus he probably hated Catholics more than Cobb did. In reading Timothy Gay's book, I was amazed both by the depth of his racism and by the breadth of his bigotries. He was a Klan member at a time when the Klan preached racial genocide, and his own attitudes and actions seemed perfectly consonant with those odious preachings.

But as Bill (Burgess) notes, Speaker spent a great deal of time working one-on-one with Larry Doby in 1948, converting him from a second baseman into a center fielder. While I'm sure he did that for the good of the Cleveland Indians, the team he'd played and managed to a championship in 1920, I'm equally sure he could never have tutored Doby like that if his heart had been as malignant and racist in 1948 as it was in 1918. And Doby had very kind words to say about Speaker afterward.

My own sense, after a very thorough reading and partial re-reading of Gay's book, is that Speaker was every bit as virulent a racist as Cobb in his younger years, but that he changed greatly in his final 10 or 20 years of life.

BHN

wamby
08-04-2006, 04:41 AM
By what standards are we going to judge whether someone is racist? Certainly someone like Cobb did and said things that by today's standards are considered racist, but were these things considered racist by 1910s standards? :confused:

Like Landis and segregation?

Brownie31
08-04-2006, 06:05 AM
By what standards are we going to judge whether someone is racist? Certainly someone like Cobb did and said things that by today's standards are considered racist, but were these things considered racist by 1910s standards? :confused:

In the 1910s practically everyone, from President Woodrow Wilson
on down, was a racist by today's PC standards. Of course, by those
standards, anyone today who deviates in the slightest from the
Liberal Establishment's line of thought is a racist.

How to be a liberal in two quick and easy steps: First, accuse
anyone who disagrees with you of being a racist, fascist, nazi;
and then deliver a sanctimonious lecture on the evils of
McCarthyism!

Brownie31

Bill Burgess
08-04-2006, 11:03 AM
Speaker was a rabid racist--just like Cobb, plus he probably hated Catholics more than Cobb did. In reading Timothy Gay's book, I was amazed both by the depth of his racism and by the breadth of his bigotries. He was a Klan member at a time when the Klan preached racial genocide, and his own attitudes and actions seemed perfectly consonant with those odious preachings.
Racism is one of the more difficult things to measure and understand. Both sides of my own family came from the South. Dad from Texas, Mom from New Orleans. I well remember my Dad's mother (Grandma) telling us how her ancestors were kind to their slaves. Grandma was not a vicious nor ignorant woman. She graduated from college at 17 yrs. old and was an editor of ladies magazines. Extremely educated. Whenever I wrote something, she'd proof-read it, circling spelling/grammar errors.

But on the subject of blacks, she was merely wrong, and ignorant on that particular subject. It's amazing how educated, otherwise intelligent people can get messed up on the subject of race.

Speaker/Cobb were racists. They were not only racists by our present standards, but racists by that era's standards too. But it appears both evolved as the progressive conservatives of the Deep South grew.

Cobb was capable of many acts of kindness towards blacks. He attended Negro League games in Detroit and sometimes would go sit in their dugout with the players and talk ball with them. He offered to help some of them get better jobs in black baseball. That is a matter of record from some black players.

My good friend/colleague, Wesley Fricks is the most knowledgeable person I know concerning Ty Cobb. He wrote a nice article on Cobb's racism. He and I disagree on Cobb/racism. I consider Ty a garden-variety racist, by any standards. Wesley disagrees with me. Below is an article he wrote, rebutting my article on Ty's racism.

Here it is. Hope you like it.
----------------------
Wesley Fricks rebutted my article nicely: Wesley's article is half way down, so you must scroll down to it.

How Racist Was Ty? (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=1253275&postcount=3) Just scroll down.

four tool
08-04-2006, 04:00 PM
How to be a liberal in two quick and easy steps: First, accuse
anyone who disagrees with you of being a racist, fascist, nazi;
and then deliver a sanctimonious lecture on the evils of
McCarthyism!

Brownie31
How to be a conservative in one easy step, accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you about invading Iraq, or corporate greed as being a commie, pinko, Saddam loving, UnAmerican unpatriotic pervert. All of which I've been called for preferring peaceful solutions to violent ones, BTW

BaseballHistoryNut
08-04-2006, 04:33 PM
In the 1910s practically everyone, from President Woodrow Wilson
on down, was a racist by today's PC standards. Of course, by those
standards, anyone today who deviates in the slightest from the
Liberal Establishment's line of thought is a racist.

How to be a liberal in two quick and easy steps: First, accuse
anyone who disagrees with you of being a racist, fascist, nazi;
and then deliver a sanctimonious lecture on the evils of
McCarthyism!

Brownie31

You will agree, won't you, that belonging to a group which has racial genocide as one of its fundamental tenets--as the Klan did when Speaker was not only a member, but an ardent and proud member--is a little more than just being your run-of-the-mill, 1900-1940 American racist. The latter is something to which the overwhelming majority of Americans, including the beloved maternal grandmother (1894-1985) who helped raise me, were prone.

I ask that anyone who's quick to take umbrage here do what I did and actually READ Timothy Gay's bio of Tris Speaker. In addition to taking part in throwing Game 6 of the 1912 World Series--probably the biggest sin in baseball history to date, though it was Joe Wood and not Speaker who was the biggest culprit--the guy was a frothing-at-the-mouth racist, xenophobe and anti-papist. It wasn't a minor thing with him.

To his great credit, he seems to have changed quite a lot in his final decade or two of life, because the mad racist of the 1900's, 1910's and 1920's never would have taken the great amount of time he took to make Larry Doby into a CF--and what an honor it had to be for Doby to get one-on-one lessons from THE greatest CF of the first half of the century, at least in MLB.

Honus Wagner Rules
08-04-2006, 05:54 PM
In the 1910s practically everyone, from President Woodrow Wilson
on down, was a racist by today's PC standards. Of course, by those
standards, anyone today who deviates in the slightest from the
Liberal Establishment's line of thought is a racist.

How to be a liberal in two quick and easy steps: First, accuse
anyone who disagrees with you of being a racist, fascist, nazi;
and then deliver a sanctimonious lecture on the evils of
McCarthyism!

Brownie31
:laugh :laugh :laugh

wamby
08-04-2006, 07:13 PM
In the 1910s practically everyone, from President Woodrow Wilson
on down, was a racist by today's PC standards. Of course, by those
standards, anyone today who deviates in the slightest from the
Liberal Establishment's line of thought is a racist.

How to be a liberal in two quick and easy steps: First, accuse
anyone who disagrees with you of being a racist, fascist, nazi;
and then deliver a sanctimonious lecture on the evils of
McCarthyism!

Brownie31

Damn liberals. What's wrong with a good blacklist?

Brownie31
08-04-2006, 07:50 PM
You will agree, won't you, that belonging to a group which has racial genocide as one of its fundamental tenets--as the Klan did when Speaker was not only a member, but an ardent and proud member--is a little more than just being your run-of-the-mill, 1900-1940 American racist. The latter is something to which the overwhelming majority of Americans, including the beloved maternal grandmother (1894-1985) who helped raise me, were prone.

I ask that anyone who's quick to take umbrage here do what I did and actually READ Timothy Gay's bio of Tris Speaker. In addition to taking part in throwing Game 6 of the 1912 World Series--probably the biggest sin in baseball history to date, though it was Joe Wood and not Speaker who was the biggest culprit--the guy was a frothing-at-the-mouth racist, xenophobe and anti-papist. It wasn't a minor thing with him.

To his great credit, he seems to have changed quite a lot in his final decade or two of life, because the mad racist of the 1900's, 1910's and 1920's never would have taken the great amount of time he took to make Larry Doby into a CF--and what an honor it had to be for Doby to get one-on-one lessons from THE greatest CF of the first half of the century, at least in MLB.

I do agree that the Klan was ugly racist and evil then and
now. Yes, I have read Gay's biography of Speaker and it is
an excellent book.

That said, the point of my earlier post was simply that
few white Americans (and certainly few, if any ballplayers)
were racially enlightened in the 1910s. Perhaps not as
repulsive as Speaker or Cobb, but not averse to uttering
the N word both casually and frequently.

Brownie31

Blackout
08-04-2006, 07:52 PM
did speaker play in any known exhibition games against negro leaguers?


......................

Brownie31
08-04-2006, 07:54 PM
Damn liberals. What's wrong with a good blacklist?

Who needs a blacklist nowadays when we have campus speech
codes and sensitivity training?

Brownie31

BaseballHistoryNut
08-05-2006, 02:43 AM
Most of those campus speech codes have, for those of us keeping track, been ruled unconstitutional.

BaseballHistoryNut
08-05-2006, 02:59 AM
I do agree that the Klan was ugly racist and evil then and
now. Yes, I have read Gay's biography of Speaker and it is
an excellent book.

That said, the point of my earlier post was simply that
few white Americans (and certainly few, if any ballplayers)
were racially enlightened in the 1910s. Perhaps not as
repulsive as Speaker or Cobb, but not averse to uttering
the N word both casually and frequently.

Brownie31

And my point was--and is--that there are different degrees of racism. It's hard to condemn an American born in 1880-something or 1890-something for being "racist" in the same sense 99+% of all white Americans back then were racist. This would include President Harry Truman (1884-1972), who thought nothing of throwing around the word "******," but also was remembered by the black White House cooking crew as a particularly kind and down-to-earth President. It also would include the grandmother (1894-1985) who helped raise me and was the only parental figure of my childhood who offered unconditional love, god bless her... but who never, in all 91 of her years, shed her learned attitudes about blacks.

Tris Speaker went WAY beyond that. He was pathologically and virulently racist, like President Woodrow Wilson. He was not a member of the Klan in a casual and curious way, like future U.S. Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black (of all people) was. He meant business. He deserves at LEAST as much censure for his intense racial and religious hatred as Cobb has gotten all these years, if not more. How he has escaped it is beyond me, for while he was not quite as supreme a baseball great as Cobb, he was on the very next rung down. And if one of those two greats was a more virulent racial and religious hater than the other, it was Speaker.

BHN

four tool
08-05-2006, 04:29 AM
I suspect Spoke didn't get censured like Cobb did for a few related of reasons. One, Cobb seemed to give the impression that he hated everybody, so people could always focus on Cobb for something. Two, as others have pointed out, racism was accepted when Tris was playing, so very few dealt with the degrees of racism. Three, Spoke did work with Larry Doby and taht negated the past in many eyes. Also, the press wasn't reporting on personal lives back then as it does now; just look at what Ruth did off the field without public censure.

wamby
08-05-2006, 04:41 AM
I suspect Spoke didn't get censured like Cobb did for a few related of reasons. One, Cobb seemed to give the impression that he hated everybody, so people could always focus on Cobb for something. Two, as others have pointed out, racism was accepted when Tris was playing, so very few dealt with the degrees of racism. Three, Spoke did work with Larry Doby and taht negated the past in many eyes. Also, the press wasn't reporting on personal lives back then as it does now; just look at what Ruth did off the field without public censure.

I think Speaker took some heat in his day, particularly because of his attitude about religion. He alledgedly got run out of Boston because of his anti-Catholicism, and a few years got involved in a controversy over religion in Cleveland when Ray Chapman died.

If Speaker was as well remembered as Cobb is, I don't think he would have gotten much of a pass when it comes to racism.

I want to read Gay's book. I don't know if Speaker was a fanatical Klansman or not. In Alexander's biography of Hornsby, he said that the Klan of the era made a special effort to get celebrities to join, but I think this may have been the more populist Klan of the 1920s.

Brownie31
08-05-2006, 05:03 AM
And my point was--and is--that there are different degrees of racism. It's hard to condemn an American born in 1880-something or 1890-something for being "racist" in the same sense 99+% of all white Americans back then were racist. This would include President Harry Truman (1884-1972), who thought nothing of throwing around the word "******," but also was remembered by the black White House cooking crew as a particularly kind and down-to-earth President. It also would include the grandmother (1894-1985) who helped raise me and was the only parental figure of my childhood who offered unconditional love, god bless her... but who never, in all 91 of her years, shed her learned attitudes about blacks.

Tris Speaker went WAY beyond that. He was pathologically and virulently racist, like President Woodrow Wilson. He was not a member of the Klan in a casual and curious way, like future U.S. Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black (of all people) was. He meant business. He deserves at LEAST as much censure for his intense racial and religious hatred as Cobb has gotten all these years, if not more. How he has escaped it is beyond me, for while he was not quite as supreme a baseball great as Cobb, he was on the very next rung down. And if one of those two greats was a more virulent racial and religious hater than the other, it was Speaker.

BHN

BHN:

No argument here about Speaker deserving as much condemnation
as Cobb, who has become baseball's favorite whipping boy.

Also, Margaret Sanger, an icon of the feminist movement, was a
virulent eugenicist and early admirer of Hitler.

Amazing what has gone down the Orwellian memory hole!

Brownie31

Bill Burgess
08-05-2006, 09:20 AM
The Tough Subject of Racism:

I find this subject one of the slipperiest ones we have to discuss. Even today, the definition is elusive.

By some people, ANY distinction between races qualifies as RACISM. For example. If some people believe that blacks cannot dance ballet as well as whites, is that racist? Or is that even true? If some people believe that whites cannot dance 'street improvisations' as well or fluidly as blacks, is that racist? And is that true?

If some people believe that inter-marriage is inappropriate, is that racist? Many blacks don't believe in racial inter-marriage. If a person is more attracted to one race than another, is that racist? If so, than many Chinese or Jewish people would qualify as racist, simply because they strongly prefer to marry within their own racial/ethnic group. Probably more due to cultural desire to not become totally integrated through assimilation.

My father, who was raised by a cultural racist (Grandma), himself was a lot less racist than she. But yet, he didn't believe in racial inter-marriage. And he was the best, most loving man I ever knew. Would buy the bar a round, even if it broke him. Give a stranger the shirt off his back.

Story: When Truman decided to integrate the armed forces, the order came down, and my Dad was a Master Sergeant in the Army. They asked who wanted to live in the 'colored' barracks with the blacks. Dad volunteered. Spent a few years as the only white living with blacks. Got along fine. THAT was what Truman thought of as 'integrating' the armed forces. And don't imagine that Truman wasn't aware of how it was being done.

My first adult sweetheart's father was a light-skinned black man, from Montserrat, West Indies, born here. Kharla looked Polynesian, not black. When I told Dad, he was upset with me.

At that time, around 1973-75, our NYC neighborhood, Inwood (top of Manhattan), which had traditionally been Irish, was going through a massive influx of Dominicans. Dad said, "Billy. It's enough to accept them socially in every way, and have the same rights/opportunities, but we don't have to marry them."

Racism is so irrational, confused, selective, arbitrary, that it's all but impossible to understand. Cobb was raised in 1890's Georgia. Used the n-word all his life, yet was capable of countless kindnesses and good deeds towards them. 'As long as they didn't behave a certain way. Uppity. As long as they gave proper respect.'

Bill Burgess

four tool
08-05-2006, 07:15 PM
Cobb's attitude sort of reminds me of the joke about Alabama Gov. Wallace in the 1960s "He's not prejudiced, all our best negroes are his friends."

wamby
08-05-2006, 08:17 PM
Cobb's attitude sort of reminds me of the joke about Alabama Gov. Wallace in the 1960s "He's not prejudiced, all our best negroes are his friends."

I'm not sure how deep Wallace's racism ran. The more I read about him, the more I think that his stand on segregation had more to do with political pragmatism than on deep seated racism.

Brownie31
08-06-2006, 05:48 AM
I'm not sure how deep Wallace's racism ran. The more I read about him, the more I think that his stand on segregation had more to do with political pragmatism than on deep seated racism.

Correct assessment, wamby. Wallace was for Wallace, first,
last and always. Of course, this hardly made him unique
among politicians!

Brownie31

four tool
08-06-2006, 05:05 PM
Whethwer it was racism or pragmatic politics, a lot of peaceful protesters got hurt by cops and dogs. That kind of pragmatisnm and me first ism isn't something I want to see in a ball player: e.g. "if only my teammates had picked up my four fumbles."

Brownie31
08-07-2006, 07:49 AM
Whethwer it was racism or pragmatic politics, a lot of peaceful protesters got hurt by cops and dogs. That kind of pragmatisnm and me first ism isn't something I want to see in a ball player: e.g. "if only my teammates had picked up my four fumbles."

It is not something I want to see in anyone, ballplayer
or not. Unfortunately, you see a lot of it in all areas.

Brownie31

four tool
08-07-2006, 09:07 AM
Yea, but it's worse in areas when it hurts or kills others.

Brownie31
08-07-2006, 09:16 AM
Yea, but it's worse in areas when it hurts or kills others.

Indeed, you are quite right. Yet along with pragmatic cynicism,
the polar opposite is also quite horrific-idealism on such a level
as to lead to fanaticism.

Right now it is the latter far more than the former that is
covering the world with death and destruction.

Brownie31

Captain Cold Nose
08-07-2006, 10:00 AM
Folks, please. While racism is very much on-topic in regards to Tris Speaker as it applies to him, a discussion of the social aspects of race and racism, Governor Wallace and desegregation are venturing off-topic. Please bring it home.

Honus Wagner Rules
08-07-2006, 05:42 PM
For Tris Speaker to finally get his own thread, and half of it is devoted to his racism is disappointing. Surely, he has virtues worthy of consideration. Does he not have a career worth discussing, outside his racism?

I would think it must. How about some positive posts on Tris?

Bill
Here, here, Bill. Let's get back to Speaker the ballplayer. I've always wanted to know if there is any film of Speaker playing the outfield? People have raved about his defense for a century. Do you have some detailed descriptions on his defensive play?

four tool
08-07-2006, 06:49 PM
IMHO, Tris is almost the best all around center fielder of all time, even edging out Mays and Mantle. Yes, I would take Cobb over Spoke because of his incredible offense, but Tris' defense even beats Mays. Combine Tris' defense and Ty's offense and you have the best player ever at any position.

BaseballHistoryNut
08-07-2006, 09:09 PM
For Tris Speaker to finally get his own thread, and half of it is devoted to his racism is disappointing. Surely, he has virtues worthy of consideration. Does he not have a career worth discussing, outside his racism?

I would think it must. How about some positive posts on Tris?

Bill

It could be worse, Bill. Half the posts could be on his role in Game 6 of the 1912 World Series.

But you're right. He was one hellacious ballplayer. I rate him ahead of Joe DiMaggio, and that's Joe DiMaggio WITH credit for his missed 3 war years. As I've told you in PM's, he was long my favorite Dead Ball player. It's just going to take me some time--a long time--to get over what I've learned about the 1912 World Series. If it weren't for that, I'd be a huge contributor to this thread, talking about what an all-around magnificent player he was--one of only two players in MLB history, the other being no less than Ty Cobb, to get a combined total of over 1,000 doubles and triples.

That's one hell of a feat. All the more so when you realize it was achieved by MLB's greatest defensive CF from 1900-1950.

BHN

Bill Burgess
08-08-2006, 12:33 AM
I'll start the ball rolling. Hopefully, others will jump on Tris' bandwagon and find something good about Tris.

First of all, I always think of Tris, along with Wagner/Mays as my reference offensive/defensive model. He was just so well-balanced between his skills/tools set.

Hard to beat, really.

Hope this sets the match to straw.

Bill

four tool
09-07-2006, 05:02 AM
For the overall package, Spoke and Willie and 1A and 1B. Mantle would be 1C if he were healthier. Everyone else is second

Honus Wagner Rules
09-11-2006, 08:35 AM
Here's a hypothetical question. What if Speaker had played in the NL his entire career? He could have dominated the NL like Cobb dominated the AL? His legacy may have been very different and perhaps an argument could have been made that Speaker was the greatest player ever? What say you BBF?

Bill Burgess
09-11-2006, 10:40 AM
If Spoke has played his career in the NL, he would have dominated the 1910's. Of that there can be little doubt. Only Wheat/Roush to push around. But the greatest ever? You'd have to make your case on that one. You're on your own there.

Bill

Honus Wagner Rules
09-11-2006, 10:46 AM
If Spoke has played his career in the NL, he would have dominated the 1910's. Of that there can be little doubt. Only Wheat/Roush to push around. But the greatest ever? You'd have to make your case on that one. You're on your own there.

Bill
Bill, all I'm saying is that if Speaker dominated the NL to a greater extent than Cobb dominated the AL, this would make things interesting. However, if Speaker was in the NL, Cobb would have doimated the AL even more as well since Speaker wouldn't have been in the AL to take away Black/Gray Ink from Cobb.

Myankee4life
09-11-2006, 03:53 PM
For the overall package, Spoke and Willie and 1A and 1B. Mantle would be 1C if he were healthier. Everyone else is second

I'd rank Joe D over Mantle as an overall package.

Mays
Speaker
Dimaggio

CTaka
09-12-2006, 09:18 PM
Here's a hypothetical question. What if Speaker had played in the NL his entire career? He could have dominated the NL like Cobb dominated the AL? His legacy may have been very different and perhaps an argument could have been made that Speaker was the greatest player ever? What say you BBF?

Assuming Speaker played in the NL instead of the AL:
Based on most of the lists I've seen here, the top four are usually Mays, Cobb (the specific order of those two usually comes down to the amount of weight one puts on LQ adjustments), Mantle and Spoke. If Speaker had played in the NL, then Cobb would likely be the general consensus as #1. Cobb's level of league dominance would also increase if he didn't have to contend with Tris. I think a good argument could be made that Speaker may edge past Mantle into the #3 spot, but even with a higher level of league dominance, I don't see him moving past Willie.

At least that's just off the top of my head without doing any serious calculations.

JRB
10-23-2006, 11:53 AM
Tris Speaker has the most lifetime assists of any outfielder with 449. The player in second place is Ty Cobb with 392. The closest post World War II player to Speaker in outfield assists is Roberto Clemente, who had 266. 3 other players played more games in the outfield than Speaker. Those players were Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron. However, Mays had only 195 assists and Aaron 201 assists.

Speaker also has the most lifetime double plays of any outfielder with 139, while Cobb is second with 107. The closest post World War II player to Speaker in double plays by an outfielder is Mays, who had 60.

Speaker played a lot of games in the outfield, however that obviously is not the primary reason he is the leader in assists and double plays, since Speaker has even more assists and double plays than the other outfielders who played more games.

Is the main reason that Speaker has so many assists and double plays that he played so shallow? Also, did the baserunners take more chances in Speaker's era? Was Speaker just that much better?

It would be nice to get input from the great collective pool of knowledge on this forum as to what are the main reasons why Speaker has such a commanding and seemingly insurmountable lead in the career categories of assists and double plays.

Honus Wagner Rules
10-23-2006, 01:31 PM
Why don't you guys try discussing Tris Speaker?
Yes, let's do. I've asked this question in the Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner general threads but I never seem to get an answer. Does any film exist of Speaker actually playing? Is there any film of any Speaker interviews?

Bill Burgess
10-23-2006, 01:37 PM
Speaker played a lot of games in the outfield, however that obviously is not the primary reason he is the leader in assists and double plays, since Speaker has even more assists and double plays than the other outfielders who played more games.

Is the main reason that Speaker has so many assists and double plays that he played so shallow? Also, did the baserunners take more chances in Speaker's era? Was Speaker just that much better?
Backward Flight:

"BTW, when you say "backward flight", you're referring to chasing down a ball with his back to it? Or backing up to catch a ball while facing it?"

In the days before 1920's live ball, the fielders were able to play much closer to the infield dirt than afterwards. But it remained for Tris Speaker to show how close in. After Tris, Clyde Milan started to play way further in, then Cobb started to also. All following Speaker's example. They were gambling that the bloopers they could catch would make up for the occasional triples over their heads. But Speaker, Milan and Cobb somehow got the knack of "knowing" when to play a bit further back. They would turn their backs to the infield and sprint for 30 yards, then turn their heads and catch the ball over their shoulders. Always got a big reaction from the fans too. That is what we call backward flight. Oscar Charleston of the old Negro L. was reputed to have that gift also. If they had merely back-pedaled, they'd never have gotten to the ball. They actually sprinted like Olympic runners. Relied on pure BB instinct. But no one was as gifted as Speaker in going and getting them. That is why he has so many assists, DPs. He played 15-20 feet behind the dirt, back of second.

The secret to playing shallow is being able to get back for the long ones. Anyone could play in, but not everyone could go back. That is what is called 'backward flight'.

"Before Willie & Mickey, there was DiMaggio and his fabled knowing where to stand as soon as the bat hit the ball, or "at the crack of a bat", I think it was said. Still, you seem to indicate that TC was very good at this. Is that what you're saying?"

(Bill - Joe was a very storied fielder too, but nowhere in the Speaker class. It was a pretty well-known fact that Joe's brother Dom, was quite a bit better defensively than Joe was, but lacked offense. It was a toss-up if Joe's other brother, Vince, was better defensively. Many felt he was.

Joe Sewell, who played with Speaker, told that every time a hit was to CF, he'd turn to see Speaker go for it. He claims that he never once saw Speaker turn. He said that whenever he turned his head, he'd see Speaker in full flight, back to the infield, sprinting like a bat out of hell. Speaker always said, the crack of the bat was too late. One had to start before the sound. Really getting into psychic perception, but we're not supposed to talk about that stuff, so . . . DiMag confirmed that the "crack of the bat" was too late in starting for a ball. Now that's outfielding!

Tris wrote Joe several letters in the Sporting News, urging Joe to play closer in. Joe always set up very deep in Yankee Stadium, much too deep for Speaker's taste. He felt Joe could have developed the instincts to go back, and said so in print on several occasions. Joe's very good pal, Ty, also urged Joe to be more daring and come in more. But Joe was far too conservative to trust in his backward flight that much. In a CF as deep as the Stadium, if a ball got away from him over his head, Joe felt that would have been catastrophic, and result in an inside-the-park homer, on him. So Joe stayed WAY back and let a ton of Texas bloopers fall in front of him and he'd come in, trap the balls, and fire them back to his cut-offs. Much too conservative a style, but that's what happened. DiMag was a conservative guy. But at least he never looked bad.)

Bill Burgess
10-23-2006, 01:47 PM
Yes, let's do. I've asked this question in the Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner general threada but I never seem to get an answer. Does any film exist of Speaker actually playing? Is there any film of any Speaker interviews?
I do not know of Speaker footage. I have seen a few seconds of Cobb swinging. But only a few seconds.

If Speaker footage exists, I've not only not seen it, but I've never even heard of it. But Speaker gave many interveiws with Baseball Magazine, and I have most of them. I have also quoted Speaker a lot in my Assessing Ty. Tris opines on the defense of Cobb, Ruth, Jackson, Hooper. He said that experience had taught him to play Cobb to the LF side of 2B.

Bill

Bill Burgess
10-29-2006, 02:04 PM
This is a very interesting thread.

Tris really stood out statistically from his fellow Red Sox. From 1913 to 1915, at least, he was the only one to slug .400 in a season as a full-timer, and he was over .500 three of those years.

Even in 1912 when they led the league in runs and had a 110 OPS+, if Speaker missed the whole season they would have been last in the league in BA (.233) and SLG (a putrid .315). Of course BA marks in the .360+ range had to stand out like Kilamanjaro.

I wonder how that must have felt for his teammates and how they treated him. Respect, yes, but perhaps differently than other teammates. I mean on his team he was the smartest, fastest, most powerful, had the best eye.

Of course there were other transcendant stars. Boston has had plenty, Pedro in 2000 with zero quality pitching seasons around him, Yaz, Teddy, etc.
---------------------

Bill Burgess
10-29-2006, 02:06 PM
For those pining for the Grey Eagle...:)
--------------------------

Bill Burgess
10-29-2006, 02:07 PM
This is a great thread with some excellent information about a pre-modern superstar. Tris Speaker was a person of his era and hence should be judged in terms that historical context and not a 21st century value based context. Like many other greats of his time Tris Speaker overcame huge obstacles to become a baseball icon. Unlike other “icons” Speaker remains almost completely unknown.

Many have called him the best defensive center fielder to every play the game. We do not have the visual beauty of film or video to be able to watch the “Grey Eagle” soar in center field. All accounts though indicate that he had tremendous speed, a gun for an arm and could get a jump on hitter better than anyone.

When one looks at Tris Speaker from an offensive perspective you have to be impressed. He still holds the record for doubles and has over 500 more hits than the likes of Barry Bonds. Not to shabby!

What makes Speaker even more interesting is that served as a player/manager and won a world championship. His play along with this ability to lift his team to a series victory after the Indians suffered the untimely death of Ray Chapman in August 1920 is often overlooked.

In summary, I believe that Tris Speaker is the greatest defensive center fielder to date. He is often overlooked and underappreciated as great ball player. Because of my interest in Tris Speaker I have built a web site that will try to chronicle his life. You can visit it at http://www.trisspeaker.us.
------------------------------

Mariano_Rivera
12-28-2006, 05:53 PM
Tris Speaker:
Source: Left: Glovemen, by George Sullivan, 1996, pp. 59.
26435
http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/132.jpg http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/131.jpg http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/130.jpg
http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/127.jpg http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/128.jpg http://www.ajclay.com/PTC/pictures/129.jpg

Bill Burgess
08-24-2007, 10:07 PM
A new biography on Tris Speaker by Charles Alexander is now available to pre-order from Amazon.com. Due out in October. Should be a good one.

http://www.amazon.com/Spoke-Biography-Speaker-Sport-American/dp/0870745174/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-0639525-7895220?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188015802&sr=1-2

Bill Burgess
09-11-2007, 11:29 AM
Bill, all I'm saying is that if Speaker dominated the NL to a greater extent than Cobb dominated the AL, this would make things interesting. However, if Speaker was in the NL, Cobb would have dominated the AL even more as well since Speaker wouldn't have been in the AL to take away Black/Gray Ink from Cobb.
Thank God that Cobb didn't play in the NL for his career. He had had come up in the NL, they'd be saying the same things about him that they now say about Wagner.

Be minimizing him for weak LQ considerations. But by playing in the AL, we got to see how he dominated Lajoie, Crawford, Chase, Jackson, Speaker, and Collins. That established his supremacy/primacy over elites, rather than journeymen. Not that Wagner was a journeyman, by any stretch. But Wheat/Roush, Daubert were a long way from Lajoie, Speaker, Jackson. Know what I mean. So, TC was lucky in that regard. Same for George Herman.

Wouldn't have been the same to see him dominate Wagner, Wheat and Roush.

Bill Burgess
09-15-2007, 03:15 PM
Tris Speaker's 1944 Sporting News' Interview:

January 6, 1944, pp. 7, by Ward Morehouse, Cleveland, O.

Bill Burgess
09-15-2007, 05:03 PM
Tris Speaker's Sporting News' Obituary:

December 17, 1958, pp. 9 & 12, by Fred G. Lieb.

Brian McKenna
11-12-2007, 12:50 PM
Just finished reading Chpater 1 of Charles Alexander's Spoke.

Interesting how Speaker began his Boston career.

After the minor league season in 1907, he joined Boston (sold for $400) in September. However, he never received a contract for 1908, so in the spring he began peddling himself to other clubs.

He met John McGraw and the Giants who were holding their spring training at nearby Marlin, Texas but was basically rebuffed. Finally, he accepted an offer from (and signed a contract with) the Class-A team in Little Rock.

Boston just happened to be holding spring training in Little Rock and Speaker ended up playing against the Red Sox in exhibition games. Boston owner John Taylor coaxed a promise from Little Rock to have the first crack at Speaker. Speaker did well and attracted quite a bit of attention. Much higher offers were made but Taylor was able to buy Speaker again for a mere $500.

Honus Wagner Rules
11-12-2007, 01:14 PM
Just finished reading Chpater 1 of Charles Alexander's Spoke.

Interesting how Speaker began his Boston career.

After the minor league season in 1907, he joined Boston (sold for $400) in September. However, he never received a contract for 1908, so in the spring he began peddling himself to other clubs.

He met John McGraw and the Giants who were holding their spring training at nearby Marlin, Texas but was basically rebuffed. Finally, he accepted an offer from (and signed a contract with) the Class-A team in Little Rock.

Boston just happened to be holding spring training in Little Rock and Speaker ended up playing against the Red Sox in exhibition games. Boston owner John Taylor coaxed a promise from Little Rock to have the first crack at Speaker. Speaker did well and attracted quite a bit of attention. Much higher offers were made but Taylor was able to buy Speaker again for a mere $500.
So was Speaker a free agent after he didn't receive a contract for the 1908 season?

Brian McKenna
11-12-2007, 01:51 PM
So was Speaker a free agent after he didn't receive a contract for the 1908 season?

Alexander said he was, since a deadline passed. But, I'm not 100% convinced. Seems to make sense if you don't hear from your last team come spring training, but something else is afoot here that's not explained.

Reports suggest that Little Rock was offered up to $7500 for Speaker but he sold him to Boston for $500. There must have been some undisclosed financial arrangement, agreement or dispute resolution.

Brian McKenna
11-17-2007, 07:33 PM
Interesting happening after the 1915 WS. The FL folded and players lost their negotiating strength.

Lannin offered Speaker a contract for 1916 with a pay cut back to pre-FL days. Of course this was unacceptable to Speaker - he wanted $12K per for 5 years. No deal.

Speaker didn't show for beginning of spring training but joined the club unsigned in late March. Still unsigned, he worked out a side deal with Lannin that he would play in exhibition games for a fee per.

On 4/7 Lannin told Speaker he agrees to his terms but that was a lie - he had already bought center fielder Tilly Walker from St. Louis.

Speaker was back to his hotel on 4/8, packing for a trip to Boston. Cleveland's business manager Robert McRoy stopped by the room and told Speaker that he had dealt for him.

Pissed, Speaker took the train to Boston rather than Cleveland. He called on Lannin and demanded $10K of the sale price and then left for Cleveland where he threatened to go home to Texas if he didn't get the cash.

A call Dunn (Indians owner) to Ban Johnson to Lannin came up empty. Speaker settled for a $2,500 signing bonus from Cleveland and penned a 2-year, $15K per contract. Speaker put on his uniform on Opening Day wearing #9 on his sleeve.

Lannin, with as much sense as many who simply bought into the game instead of learning it first, believed he had done good to get rid of one of the greatest players in history. Cleveland would soon to go from the outhouse to world champs.

locke40
02-27-2008, 07:48 PM
Hey everyone. I got some new images that haven't been posted before. Hope you all enjoy them.

FRONT:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/0800/0870/0878fr.jpg

BACK:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/0800/0870/0878br.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 07:49 PM
FRONT:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1400/1450/1459fr.jpg

BACK:
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1400/1450/1459br.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 07:51 PM
Tris Speaker & wife, 6/20/25

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/npcc/13800/13855v.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 07:53 PM
1927

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/npcc/16700/16771v.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/npcc/16700/16769v.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 07:56 PM
1912 Sept. 28

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/10900/10963v.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 07:58 PM
1912

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/10300/10312v.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 08:00 PM
Tris Speaker, Cleveland AL & Conrad V. Dykeman, Shriners' Imperial Potentate

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/31400/31432v.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 08:04 PM
Duffy Lewis, Larry Gardner, Tris Speaker, Heinie Wagner, Boston AL

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/ggbain/10300/10378v.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 08:05 PM
World's Champions, the Cleveland base ball club, American League, season 1921

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/pan/6a29000/6a29600/6a29654r.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 08:08 PM
FRONT:
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1800/1850/1853fr.jpg

BACK:
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1800/1850/1853br.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 08:11 PM
FRONT:
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1700/1700/1701fr.jpg

BACK:
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1700/1700/1701br.jpg

locke40
02-27-2008, 08:15 PM
Base Ball Fold Series:

FRONT:
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1500/1570/1575fr.jpg

BACK:
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/bbc/1500/1570/1575br.jpg

csh19792001
05-04-2008, 02:56 PM
Enjoy, folks.

Don Hyslop of Red Sox Nation recently spoke with Tim Gay, the author of Tris Speaker: The Rough-and-tumble Life of a Baseball Legend . A writer based in northern Virginia, Gay’s essays and articles on the Civil War, politics, baseball, college basketball, and golf, have appeared in USA Today, the Washington Post and other publications.

RSN: First of all, Tim, can you tell us how you became such a fan of Speaker's era in baseball?

TG: For my sixth birthday, my parents gave me a book called, “Big Time Baseball.” It was a wonderful storybook for kids, and there was a lot in it about the deadball era and about Tris Speaker. I became fascinated with Tris as a kid and found it difficult to understand why this brilliant all around ballplayer was not considered the greatest ballplayer who ever lived. He was so gifted in so many different phases of the game. When I became an adult I grew more interested in baseball history, and folklore with Speaker was always on the top of my mind. About four-and-a-half years ago, I began researching Speaker for a possible article I could submit to a historical or baseball publication. The deeper I got into the subject, the more I realized there was a book to be written. He is a fascinating character who represents the best and worst that there is in baseball. The more I studied him, the more convinced I became that he was an absolute genius in regards to the game.

RSN: What characteristics did Speaker possess that you admired so much?

TG: I think that it was his incredible natural instincts for the game. No one in the history of the game could play centerfield the way he did. Speaker played so shallow and with such guile. I was always enthralled by this guy who played with such reckless abandon. Six times for sure, and as many as perhaps nine or ten times, he pulled off unassisted double plays by racing in from center, spearing a sinking line drive and beating the retreating runner back to second base. Babe Ruth said that the Red Sox came to view his ability to throw a hitter out at first base on a short hop line drive to centerfield as ho hum! If that happened today, it would be on Baseball Tonight for a week and people would be talking around the water fountains about how stunning a play it was.

RSN: Would you rate Speaker as the greatest Red Sox player of all time?

TG: Oh, without question he was the greatest all around player! His hitting skills I don’t think were in the class of Ted Williams, and I think if he had played in William’s generation his average would not have been a lifetime .344, but he would have had more pop in his bat. Williams was at best a pedestrian leftfielder who was not totally focused all the time in the field. Speaker won more games with his glove than with his bat and he still was a fearsome hitter. The other thing about Speaker that goes unappreciated is that he was a winner. If you look at his record, wherever he went he turned that franchise around. The Red Sox had fallen into the cellar when he became the everyday centerfielder in 1909 and then they immediately became respectable. Shortly, they became the best team in the American League. When he was traded to a mediocre team in Cleveland, that team began to turn things around right away. In the summer of 1919, he was appointed player manager there and the next season, his first full one at the helm, Cleveland won not only the pennant but also the World Series.

RSN: Why do you think Speaker has become baseball’s forgotten superstar, even with Boston fans?

TG: There are, I believe, a lot of reasons. Part of it has to do with his prickly personality. When Speaker was in Boston from part of 1907 through to the spring of 1916, he was a tough customer and a fish-out-of-water. He was a Southern Protestant who wore his allegiance to the Confederate cause on his sleeve. He was in a town, to put it charitably, that was hostile to those ideas and to people with his background. The irony of it was that the working class of Boston just loved the way he played -- how he ran the bases and played centerfield. He, however, never reciprocated that feeling. He and Smoky Joe Wood developed a pretty tough attitude towards Boston, and he probably was not unhappy to leave.

RSN: Do you think that Speaker was any more racist than most southerners of his era? It seemed his individual treatment of blacks contradicted his general beliefs about race.

TG: I think he was much less confrontational on racial issues than someone like Ty Cobb. Cobb never claimed allegiance to the KKK, although he behaved like a clan member at various times. Speaker did claim membership to the KKK, but the good news is that he was not a very good member. His two closest friends in life were Jewish. The trainer of the Indians, Larry Wiseman, whom he befriended in Boston, and a great pal in his hometown of Hubbard, Texas who ran the local fire department, were both Jewish. Speaker married an Irish Catholic immigrant girl as well, contradicting all the conflicts he had over religion. What is most significant is that later in life he tutored Larry Doby, the first African American to play in the American League. It was Bill Veeck’s great foresight that Doby, who was a natural infielder, would need a mentor to help him with his transition to the outfield. Who better to do this than the greatest outfielder in history? He brought Speaker back even though he was radioactive at the time due to the gambling allegations that had been made about him and Cobb. Veeck brought him back as a spring training coach and a part-time outfield instructor. Doby was so grateful for Speaker’s help that 50 years later during his Hall of Fame induction speech he acknowledged Speaker’s help.

RSN: His first appearance with the Red Sox was, to say the least, not impressive, and he was released at the end of the 1907 season. What factors were involved there?

TG: The Red Sox at that time were a dysfunctional organization. They were on their fourth manager in 1907 when Speaker was brought up for the first time. I think they were too dumb to realize his defensive skills and what the upside to those would be. He really never got a chance to prove himself. He only got into a handful of games near the end of the season. For whatever reason they just did not see his potential and that is more a testament of just how poorly the organization was being run at that time. It may have been as simple as them forgetting to mail out a new contract, but whatever the reason he became a free agent over the winter of1907-08. He twice went to Giants manager John McGraw with hat in hand begging for a job. McGraw turned him down two days in a row, telling him he already had enough outfielders in camp. McGraw later admitted that this was one of the biggest mistakes of his career.

RSN: Was the Protestant/Catholic rivalry that existed on the Red Sox during this period typical in baseball, or was it unique to the Sox?

TG: I think it was unique. I am sure that that kind of sectarian tension existed in every major American city at the time, but it was particularly pronounced in Boston because of the large number of Catholic Irish immigrants and how they had taken control of the city’s political machinery. In Honey Fitz, the mayor during the Sox great run in the teens, there was an Irish Catholic who metaphorically liked to bloody Brahmin noses. He was not shy about letting people know who was boss and did not hesitate to remind people of the political power that the immigrants held. So I think it was particularly tense in Boston and I think the Red Sox clubhouse did the community one better. “Rough” Carrigan never backed down from a fight and was the head of the KC (Knights of Columbus) faction. Duffy Lewis was another KC and also one never to take any guff. On the other side of the aisle, heading up the Masons were Speaker and Wood who also never backed down. In 1911, Speaker and Carrigan were in the clubhouse brawl to end all clubhouse brawls, and their teammates just let them go. According to most accounts, Carrigan laid a beating on Speaker which was something, as Speaker was exceptional with his fists. It is, I believe, the only fight he ever lost.

RSN: Were there any other interesting stories that came from Carrigan’s diaries that were not included in the book?

TG: Carrigan’s diaries consist of collections of newspaper clippings that were compiled by a fan who befriended the family. Whoever that was is owed a great deal of gratitude by baseball historians. We know that he and Speaker did not get along. It is clear that when Speaker was sent to Cleveland at the beginning of 1916, Carrigan shed no tears. He, at least for public consumption, said he had been against the deal and the two of them could put their personal differences aside for the good of the team, but I don’t think there is any question but that he was relieved when the trade happened. It probably eased a lot of clubhouse tension and eliminated a big headache for him.

RSN: What is your take on the claims that Sox ownership were involved in throwing a game on their way to the 1912 World Series by not starting Wood on his turn to pitch?

TG: We will never know how strong an influence gambling was but it is clear that it had baseball by the throat in those days. There was no bigger gambler than Sport Sullivan in those days. He was probably involved in the suspicious moves in the 1912 World Series as well as the 1914 one with the Braves. He was also the guy who put together the initial deal in 1919. Sullivan later disappeared like Jimmy Hoffa when the investigation to the Black Sox scandal was getting a little too hot. Glenn Stout believes he ended up in Mexico under a new identity. There is no doubt that Sox owner James McAleer, and Ban Johnson who was American League President and the real owner of the Sox, as well as several other teams, had involvement in this affair. There is also no doubt that Charles Comiskey was involved with gamblers as well. Many postseason games during that era left fans scratching their heads. They just did not pass the smell test. The Sox could have started Wood in game six in 1912 with the Sox ahead three games to one in the series. Wood was primed and ready to go. The players on the train to New York were so confident behind Wood they were already talking about how they would spend their winners shares. Later that night, word leaked out that McAleer had gone to manager Staal and ordered him to start Bucky O’Brien, a kid. The great rumor is that Bucky showed up the next day not figuring to pitch and was either drunk or badly hung over. He was given the start and proceeded to give up five runs in the first inning and the Sox went on to lose that game 5-2. On the train ride home, Smokey Joe’s brother Paul laid a beating on O’Brien. The Sox were disgusted with management. They had been screwed out of any take on the tied second game of the Series and now this. Lord knows what happened on that train ride home, but the next day the players played like the Keystone Cops to lose again.

RSN: Was the phrase “where triples go to die” originally meant to describe Speaker’s play, not Joe Jackson’s?

TG: I tried my best to track it down. There are a couple of references to Speaker. Later it was used to describe Willie Mays’ play in the Polo Grounds. Somewhere along the line it somehow got tied to Shoeless Joe, which is curious as he was a leftfielder. It is not that Jackson was a bad fielder, but even balls hit over a leftfielder’s head should not end up as triples, although Jackson did play a couple of fly balls in game four of the 1919 World Series into triples. The idea that Jackson played all out in the 1919 World Series is probably not correct.

RSN: Do you know if Speaker’s great catch in the 1915 World Series -- a catch that many who saw it said compared to the 1954 Mays catch in that World Series -- has been honored by the Red Sox as a Memorable Moments in their Hall of Fame?

TG: I don’t know, but if it isn’t it ought to be! Not only did it save game two of the Series, it also most likely saved the entire Series. If he had not made it, the Phillies would have been up two games to none. It is such a shame that there is no film of that catch or a still photograph of him reaching over the wall to make the catch. This is just another reason why he is not as appreciated as he should be.

RSN: Did the relationship between Speaker and Lewis ever warm over the years?

TG: Warm may be overdoing it, but I believe it got less chilly over the years. Supposedly at an oldtimer’s game they reconciled their differences a bit. As I have said before, Speaker was one tough dude. So was Duffy. The Catholic/Protestant thing was part of it, but I think they were too much alike as well. Speaker mellowed as the years passed and so did Lewis. Duffy had a life in baseball after his playing days. He was traveling secretary for the Braves. The later years did not treat him well and it was rumored that at the end of his life, in the 70’s, he died a very poor man. He had a very strong arm and was similar by all accounts to Yaz in his fielding abilities in left. His arm may not have been as accurate as Tris’s or Harry Hooper’s but it was as every bit as strong. He made incredible fielding plays off the fence and off the cliff in left named after him.

RSN: What was the reaction of Boston fans when Speaker was sent to Cleveland?

TG: They were horrified! Much more horrified than when Ruth was sold to the Yankees. Speaker at the time was, without question, the best all around player in baseball. The team was still strong enough though to win World Series in both 1916 and 1918.

RSN: When Speaker was manager with Cleveland, he became one of the earliest proponents of platooning.

TG: Bill James in the Historical Baseball Abstract gives Speaker a lot of credit for being a pioneer in this. It was probably always in the back of his mind that players on the bench should be used every so often, if just to inspire the starters, but he also saw the positive percentages of having a left-handed hitter bat against a right-handed pitcher and vice versa. By the time Speaker had become manager the dead ball era was over. The lively ball was introduced in 1920 and Speaker knew he had to take advantage of the skills of everyone on his roster.

RSN: You mention in the book he almost became the Red Sox manager in 1931. Why didn’t that happen?

TG: The deal appeared to be as good as done! This was the third or fourth time that Speaker almost had a managerial job. It becomes clear when you look at the pattern, these owners who offered him these jobs might have been unaware that Landis had blackballed him from running a team as a result of the allegations that arose from the Cobb/Speaker affair. It would always be leaked to the press and then the deal always came undone as a result, I believe, of Landis intervening.

RSN: Upon his retirement, he became very active with children’s charities. Could you comment on that?

TG: He had an incredible soft-spot in his heart for children. By all accounts he was fabulous with youngsters. There is a great photograph that didn’t make it into the book that shows a kid doing a handstand on Tris’s shoulders with big grins on both the kid’s and Speaker’s faces. The people of Hubbard remember how kind he was to kids and how much money he put into the Little League program there. They named the field after him. Sadly, he and his wife never had any children of their own.

RSN: How would you rate the Golden Outfield of Speaker, Hooper and Lewis in terms of all time great outfields?

TG: In terms of overall defensive brilliance, by all means number-one! Don’t take my word for it -- take the word of sportswriters like Shirley Povich, Arthur Dailey and others who saw them play. Grantland Rice once said they could track down a ball in another county if they had to do so. There was no outfield in Rice’s view that could rival them. They were exceptional in tracking down balls and playing off of each other. Speaker was especially brilliant at balls hit over his head and also at those hit in the gaps. Their arms were so strong that to run on them you did at your own peril. The first year Harry Hooper played a full season in right field he led the league in assists. He never did again because teams would not attempt the extra base on him. Speaker’s arm was so strong and accurate that Detroit shortstop Donie Bush said that Speaker could throw a strike over home plate from anywhere in the outfield. Speaker’s throws had a natural left to right curve on them but he always figured out how much it would bend and the throw would be right over the base or the plate.

RSN: You mention that you would like to see the Red Sox commemorate the Golden Outfield in some way. Have you contacted them about this yet?

TG: You know, I haven’t yet but I am glad you mentioned it, because I am going to draft a letter to them to follow up on that. I pointed it out to Bob Ryan and Dan Shaughnessy of the Globe. It seems to me that the Red Sox of 1912 and 1915 were two of the greatest teams in baseball history. Both Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth maintained that no team in their experience could match the 1915 Red Sox for their defensive brilliance at every position. Their pitching staff was so deep that they won the 1915 Series four games to one without Pennock, Wood or Ruth starting.

There should be some commemoration to the Golden Outfield at Fenway Park. I thought perhaps somewhere on the right field façade apart from the retired numbers. These three men were unique in baseball history. It was like having Yaz, Mays and Clemente all on the same team, and that is no exaggeration. I ran that comparison to Paul Zane, Hooper’s biographer and he agreed.

hellborn
05-07-2008, 06:06 AM
That guy sounds like a real baseball writer. That book is going on my list, although I probably won't get to it for a couple of years (I have quite a backed up reading list right now).
I noticed this in an online listing for that book...
"At one time, he was every bit as racist as Cobb but was seldom outspoken, and, in later years as a Cleveland Indians coach, he tutored the American League's first black player, Larry Doby. And like Jackson, he most likely had a hand in a few shady gambling deals, but he was smart enough to not get caught."
Guess he's suspected in more than just the Cobb-Leonard thing?

Bill Burgess
05-14-2008, 11:10 PM
Nice excerpt, Chris. Thanks for sharing it.

Bill Burgess
05-14-2008, 11:13 PM
Nice shots of Tris, Locke40. Thanks for sharing them.

Bill Burgess
06-14-2008, 08:47 PM
Can anyone else find any cool pictures of Tris?

BSmile
06-14-2008, 09:12 PM
"Can anyone else find any cool pictures of Tris?"

Ummm, OK. Here's a great (and rare) shot of Duffy Lewis, Tris Speaker, and Harry Hooper - no exact date, but it has to be 1915.

Cheers! ~B
44614

Bill Burgess
09-06-2008, 08:33 AM
Backward Flight:

"BTW, when you say "backward flight", you're referring to chasing down a ball with his back to it? Or backing up to catch a ball while facing it?"

In the days before 1920's live ball, the fielders were able to play much closer to the infield dirt than afterwards. But it remained for Tris Speaker to show how close in. After Tris, Clyde Milan started to play way further in, then Cobb started to also. All following Speaker's example. They were gambling that the bloopers they could catch would make up for the occasional triples over their heads. But Speaker, Milan and Cobb somehow got the knack of "knowing" when to play a bit further back. They would turn their backs to the infield and sprint for 30 yards, then turn their heads and catch the ball over their shoulders. Always got a big reaction from the fans too. That is what we call backward flight. Oscar Charleston of the old Negro L. was reputed to have that gift also. If they had merely back-pedaled, they'd never have gotten to the ball. They actually sprinted like Olympic runners. Relied on pure BB instinct. But no one was as gifted as Speaker in going and getting them. That is why he has so many assists, DPs. He played 15-20 feet behind the dirt, back of second.

The secret to playing shallow is being able to get back for the long ones. Anyone could play in, but not everyone could go back. That is what is called 'backward flight'.

"Before Willie & Mickey, there was DiMaggio and his fabled knowing where to stand as soon as the bat hit the ball, or "at the crack of a bat", I think it was said. Still, you seem to indicate that TC was very good at this. Is that what you're saying?"

(Bill - Joe was a very storied fielder too, but nowhere in the Speaker class. It was a pretty well-known fact that Joe's brother Dom, was quite a bit better defensively than Joe was, but lacked offense. It was a toss-up if Joe's other brother, Vince, was better defensively. Many felt he was.

Joe Sewell, who played with Speaker, told that every time a hit was to CF, he'd turn to see Speaker go for it. He claims that he never once saw Speaker turn. He said that whenever he turned his head, he'd see Speaker in full flight, back to the infield, sprinting like a bat out of hell. Speaker always said, the crack of the bat was too late. One had to start before the sound.
I found that quote by Joe Sewell.

Paul Green: Did he play as close to the infield as everyone says?
Joe Sewell: I played seven years with him right behind me there. You know how an infielder gets down for the pitch? Well, you'd get down and the ball would be hit--a shot--you'd turn, and in all that time I never did see him turn, he'd be turned and gone with his back to the plate, the ball, the infield; and when he'd turn around again, there would be the ball. I've seen him do it numbers of times. I don't know how he'd judge that ball or how he'd know when it was coming down and he'd say, "I do it by instinct, I can't tell you." The greatest outfielder, the greatest center fielder I ever saw. And a good thrower, a good hitter, a good base runner. What else you want? You don't need anything else. (Forgotten Fields, by Paul Green, 1984, pp. 73.)

Brian McKenna
09-06-2008, 10:55 AM
Is it true that Clyde Milan played a shallower centerfield than Speaker?

Bill Burgess
09-06-2008, 02:08 PM
No. Speaker started first around 1909 and then Clyde Milan came along around 1911. Milan was influenced by Speaker to play more shallow than he had previously.

I suspect that you saw a reference by Clark Griffith, who said that Milan played more shallow than anyone else. Saw the same reference. Via Proquest. Just truth-bending by Griffith. He was a fibber.

In fact, Baseball Magazine asserted that Milan was the only center-fielder who followed his system somewhat. But even that was hedging. Because Cobb was also influenced by Tris Speaker to come in closer.

But Speaker was the shallowest of them all, followed by Milan, then Cobb.

After Speaker beat out Cobb for the 1916 BA title, the following sentence appeared in Baseball Magazine.

"Clyde Milan alone has patterned his work somewhat upon the Speaker model and he has not attained Speaker's general excellence of play."

reviewboy
09-06-2008, 10:26 PM
Mr Burgess,

What do grey and black and 'ink totals' refer to?

Thank you.

RB

[QUOTE=Bill Burgess;458741]Mantle/Speaker:
....

Their respective Ink totals comprise:

Mickey Mantle: 65 Black, 272 grey
Tris Speaker: 34 Black, 346 grey

...............

Bill Burgess
09-07-2008, 01:30 AM
Mr Burgess,

What do grey and black and 'ink totals' refer to?

Thank you.

RB

[QUOTE=Bill Burgess;458741]Mantle/Speaker:
....

Their respective Ink totals comprise:

Mickey Mantle: 65 Black, 272 grey
Tris Speaker: 34 Black, 346 grey

...............
Black Ink refers to leading a league in an offensive category. Grey Ink refers to coming in the Top 10 of a league in an offensive category.

reviewboy
09-07-2008, 09:03 AM
Thank you very much, Mr. Burgess.

RB


[QUOTE=reviewboy;1305747]Mr Burgess,
Black Ink refers to leading a league in an offensive category. Grey Ink refers to coming in the Top 10 of a league in an offensive category.

Bill Burgess
09-07-2008, 10:05 AM
Thank you very much, Mr. Burgess.
You are welcome, my friend. Welcome to Fever.

Ink scores are tabulated on 'www.baseball-reference.com', at the bottom of the page, for individual players. Here is the link to one such example.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cobbty01.shtml

This is the page for Ty Cobb, the player I am most familiar with, so please excuse me if I use him as my reference point. Just scroll down towards the bottom of the page and you will see how that website measures his 'ink scores'.

Black Ink: Batting - 150 (2) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 417 (1) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)

Here is the Black Ink explanation
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#black_ink

Here is the Grey Ink explanation
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/leader_glossary.shtml#gray_ink

By the way, Baseball-Reference is the decided website of choice for most discerning Fever members. It is absolutely phenomenal in its compilation of most relevant stats, and its wonderful, beautiful visual layout of them. So, easy, so clean for the eye to scan.

Makes looking up stats SO much easier. It should be an icon on all of our desktops for quick convenience. I have put its link in hundreds of my photos of players, so that we can all quickly see how they did statistically.

Hope this little tutorial helps.

Bill

OleMissCub
09-07-2008, 03:24 PM
Tris with Nap Lajoie and Cy Young before the fifth game of the 1920 World Series on 10/11/1920:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/naptriscy.jpg

fdnyladder7
09-07-2008, 07:13 PM
M114 and 1910 FA George, Red Sox PC.

OleMissCub
11-09-2008, 11:35 AM
Some great images from Lelands auction site. Thanks to Bill again for finding this site:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris1-1.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris2-1.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris3-1.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris4-1.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris5-1.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris6-1.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris7-1.jpg


WWI Navy uniform:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris8-1.jpg

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/tris9-1.jpg

Bill Burgess
06-29-2009, 12:54 PM
I added a poll to this excellent thread.

ItsOnlyGil
06-30-2009, 06:50 PM
Sporting News Speaker

Bill Burgess
08-10-2009, 01:16 PM
I added a poll to this thread. Would like to pad the vote totals.

Note. When I run a poll, I expect everyone to subtract their pitchers from their Top 100 Players. Most of us do that already, but still, for those of you who don't, that would skew the results.

torez77
12-27-2013, 08:59 PM
Thought I'd bump this thread for a very under-appreciated player - by the general public, that is. He seems to get his due here at BBF, but does he get enough? Would it be accurate to crown him the the best all-around player, i.e. the Willie Mays of the deadball era? Is he not just top 10, but top 5 all-time?

willshad
12-27-2013, 09:57 PM
He has a case for top 5 all time..really no flaws in his game. I see no real difference between him and Mays,except that Mays played slightly longer. Remember how good Trout was in 2012? Give him about 17 more seasons like that, and you'd get something close to Speaker.

Second Base Coach
12-29-2013, 11:09 AM
None of you will believe this, but when I played ball in the outfield I too played shallow. If I thought the ball was going over my head, I took off. The SOUND told me how well it was hit. So I used the "crack of the bat" to tell me how hard I should run back on the ball. I really had to watch the bat hit the ball. When I saw what I thought was going to be a fly ball to me, I would run back. Chatter on the infield would screw me up sometimes because the crack would tell me how deep the ball was going to go. I had to look over my shoulder for the angle to the ball. My running speed was determined by the sound at the plate.

I am no Tris Speaker, but when I read that he used his eyes to determine when to haul back, and perhaps he used the sound to determine how far to run back, I was taken back to days gone by.

This skill was honed in practice. Just a simple exercise of a coach willing to hit one over your head for about 15 minutes at ever practice and you could not cheat and run backwards until the ball was hit.

No cheating!!

csh19792001
01-30-2014, 04:50 PM
134989
134990
134991
134992

csh19792001
04-23-2014, 10:12 PM
Just how underrated is Speaker, and how phenomenal was he?

Consider that while they were both in the American League as regulars, the same years, overall (1909-1927)....he was Cobb's equal statistically. That is staggering.

138138

He is also one of the best old players ever, much more valuable than even Cobb, and let's not forget that Speaker was player/manager- and a great one- for eight seasons. That makes his statistics in the 1920's even MORE incredible.

138139

csh19792001
04-23-2014, 10:14 PM
The coup de grâce with Speaker, for me, is that he was just about THE top hitter AND the top fielder in his league- almost every single season- for about 15 years. Can anyone else even lay that claim? Willie Mays, perhaps?


Defense
138140

Offense
138141

Bothrops Atrox
04-23-2014, 10:21 PM
Just how underrated is Speaker?]

By who? BBFer? The general public?

csh19792001
04-23-2014, 10:32 PM
By who? BBFer? The general public?

Even the majority here. Especially since reading his biography, I have always had him ranked higher/holding him in higher esteem than seemingly everyone else.

The general public/average fan? Good luck if they even know the name!....beyond "Yeah....I've heard of him, I think...."

Bothrops Atrox
04-23-2014, 10:34 PM
Where is he usually ranked here? 12 or so?

csh19792001
04-23-2014, 10:37 PM
Where is he usually ranked here? 12 or so?

This is really sad, but "Ask Bill, he'll know and give you an exact answer!" came right to the forefront when I read this.

Ever the taxonomist, stenographer, and exacting man, he was....

Bothrops Atrox
04-23-2014, 11:05 PM
This is really sad, but "Ask Bill, he'll know and give you an exact answer!" came right to the forefront when I read this.

Ever the taxonomist, stenographer, and exacting man, he was....

We have so many lists here. I am not even sure what the definitive list is, or if there even is one.

brett
04-24-2014, 07:28 AM
I've had to move Speaker up and up over the years. I have my big 4 in Mays, Cobb, Ruth and Wagner, plus Williams and Aaron locked into 5 and 6. But then there is a tough battle with Speaker, Musial, Hornsby, Mantle, Charleston and Bonds with a steroid deduction for the 7-12 spots. I've moved Speaker ahead of Mantle, and I think I like him above Hornsby too. That leaves me with Speaker, Musial, Charleston and a docked Bonds in the 7-10 spots, and I think I may have him 7th right now.

bluesky5
04-24-2014, 11:07 AM
134989
134990
134991
134992

Who wrote that? Seems they buy into the "Cobb as a sociopath" viewpoint. I don't know why he always has to be a sociopath. Seems like your average determined, irascible dick to me.

Honus Wagner Rules
04-24-2014, 11:11 AM
More crap about Cobb. The second attachment is simply ridiculous. The mere sight of black people enraged Cobb so much that he wanted to beat them up?

bluesky5
04-24-2014, 11:13 AM
More crap about Cobb. The second attachment is simply ridiculous. The mere sight of black people enraged Cobb so much that he wanted to beat them up?

It's what 99.9% of people think about Cobb.

Honus Wagner Rules
04-24-2014, 11:27 AM
It's what 99.9% of people think about Cobb.

:ughh .......

Captain Cold Nose
04-24-2014, 11:27 AM
It's what 99.9% of people think about Cobb.

We were discussing that a little the past couple of days on the Facebook Baseball Books page. Even Tiger fans are under that impression.

Tyrus4189Cobb
04-24-2014, 11:38 AM
We were discussing that a little the past couple of days on the Facebook Baseball Books page. Even Tiger fans are under that impression.

Nonsense that has been thrown around so long it has become fact, like the "Wild" West or the fantasies concerning the Pilgrims. What else is new?

Captain Cold Nose
04-24-2014, 12:38 PM
Nonsense that has been thrown around so long it has become fact, like the "Wild" West or the fantasies concerning the Pilgrims. What else is new?

I like to think Tiger fans would know better. And he is rightly revered in Detroit, for the most part. The same plaque declaring him the greatest Tiger of all hangs outside Comerica as it did Tiger Stadium. But as the years go by and the memories of those who remember him from his time spent post-career at Tiger Stadium and elsewhere (such as Ernie Harwell) fade out, we have legacies like the Stump book.

Speaker was fortunate to not have that hatchet job, nor a greatly notorious incident like Joe Jackson did. Maybe in some cases it's better to only be known by those who care about what happened 100 years ago than to have a reputation that makes one wish he were forgotten.

bluesky5
04-24-2014, 08:09 PM
For the record Chris I know you know Cobb wasn't a sociopath or even half as nuts as most folks think. Maybe not 90% as nuts. Anyhow I think a lot of the perception of Cobb being considered nearly unanimously better than Speaker in their day and henceforth was/is Cobb's superior base running and stealing when being a top notch base runner was exponentially more important than it is now.

Highest SB totals - Cobb/Speaker:

96/52
83/46
76/42
68/35
65/35
61/35
55/30
53/29
51/25

Cobb was often cited as having the SB record but I doubt most had forgotten Billy Hamilton by 1915. I wonder if Hugh Nicol was mentioned when Cobb stole 96?

Highest Rbaser totals - Cobb/Speaker:

10/2
9/2
8/2
7/1
7/1
4/1
4/1
3/1
3/0
2/0

I'm willing to bet Cobb was far more valuable on the bases than Rbaser indicates.

Brian McKenna
04-25-2014, 11:46 AM
If I stand back and think about it - all the times I've heard Speaker referred by the layman, I might have to say he is the most unknown of the greats. If I see his name it's in a crossword clue like "Speaker of baseball." Sure they may still hail him in Boston - not so sure about Cleveland - but other than that he's largely forgotten.

Forget the recent greats; they get their due. Forget the 19th century greats; no one knows them. Of Tris' contemporaries - people know Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Joe Jax, Gehrig and even some of the pitchers like Mathewson and Big Train. But mention Speaker and there's no recognition. Not sure why. (Lajoie is unknown as well, and perhaps Pete Alexander and Miner Brown.)

Captain Cold Nose
04-25-2014, 12:56 PM
If I stand back and think about it - all the times I've heard Speaker referred by the layman, I might have to say he is the most unknown of the greats. If I see his name it's in a crossword clue like "Speaker of baseball." Sure they may still hail him in Boston - not so sure about Cleveland - but other than that he's largely forgotten.

Forget the recent greats; they get their due. Forget the 19th century greats; no one knows them. Of Tris' contemporaries - people know Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Joe Jax, Gehrig and even some of the pitchers like Mathewson and Big Train. But mention Speaker and there's no recognition. Not sure why. (Lajoie is unknown as well, and perhaps Pete Alexander and Miner Brown.)

Speaker falls behind Feller and Young in Cleveland. Young only because he's from Ohio.

Speaker doesn't have a legacy. All the others do, for all intents and purposes, even if it's just a claim at GOAT.

Would Wagner be as known today without the T206? Mathewson played in NYC, and was part of the HOF's first class, not to mention how he lost his life. Would anyone know Joe Jackson now besides historians if the Black Sox scandal didn't take him down? Gehrig has the market, a highly publicized fight for life, and an A-list actor playing him in the movies. Cobb was Cobb and Ruth was born close to the water in Maryland.

What's there for Joe Public to remember about Speaker as time marches on?

Brian McKenna
04-25-2014, 02:01 PM
Speaker doesn't have a legacy. All the others do, for all intents and purposes, even if it's just a claim at GOAT.

Would Wagner be as known today without the T206? Mathewson played in NYC, and was part of the HOF's first class, not to mention how he lost his life. Would anyone know Joe Jackson now besides historians if the Black Sox scandal didn't take him down?

Good points, I've wondered that about Wagner and Jackson as well.

csh19792001
04-26-2014, 05:12 PM
What's there for Joe Public to remember about Speaker as time marches on?

This is why I've been posting/researching/sharing re: Speaker so ardently here since 2003!!!

Even after all my years and our collective efforts, Tris Speaker is, I believe, easily THE most underrated and unheralded superstar in baseball history. As I said, the average "die hard" fan I know of today's game has either never heard of him, or only vaguely recognizes his name. And I am friends with/work with dozens of guys (and some girls) who are obsessed with baseball (almost all Yankees/Sox fans).

brett
04-26-2014, 06:03 PM
When I was a teenager, the two things I knew about Speaker were 1) that he was one of 10 guys with a career .330 average, .400 on base% and .500 slugging percentage, (Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Hornsby, Joe Jackson (not quite 5000 at bats but he was included, Cobb, Musial, and the last 3 who I knew a lot less about: Speaker, Delahanty and Heilmann). 2) That he had the all time record for outfield assists with some insanely high total.

Honus Wagner Rules
04-26-2014, 06:37 PM
As for Wagner I don't think the T-206 card plays that much into his legacy. The fame and extremely high monetary value of the T-206 card is a rather recent phenomenon. It's value only really took off in the early 1990's. I remember reading that the card sold for just $1,500 in 1972 and only $25,000-$30,000 in 1985.

Sultan_1895-1948
04-26-2014, 10:44 PM
Would Speaker be better remembered if he stayed on the Sox? Lets face it, being a teammate of Ruth's, especially as a great player on WS winning teams, catches Joe Pedestrians attention. There would be more stories, signature moments, mentions later era recaps and reports, more quotes from and about him. It's not all about Ruth but it plays a part...the whirl-wind of attention; but could Speaker's personality deal with it not being all about him? His talents stood on their own so it'd be nice if he could have.

As is, he might just deserve a place on the Rushmore unknown by casual fans.

brett
04-26-2014, 10:54 PM
Its funny, I think of him as a Red Soxer. Probably because he had the huge OF assist seasons there.

It's funny that he had fairly few league leaderships, and also not a bunch of #2 finishes either. He didn't just finish second to Cobb every year.

Sultan_1895-1948
04-26-2014, 11:34 PM
Holy smokes....talk about declining in the perfect era.

As a 37 year old, home slash of .432/.521/.644 :faint:

Captain Cold Nose
04-28-2014, 09:26 AM
Would Speaker be better remembered if he stayed on the Sox? Lets face it, being a teammate of Ruth's, especially as a great player on WS winning teams, catches Joe Pedestrians attention. There would be more stories, signature moments, mentions later era recaps and reports, more quotes from and about him. It's not all about Ruth but it plays a part...the whirl-wind of attention; but could Speaker's personality deal with it not being all about him? His talents stood on their own so it'd be nice if he could have.

As is, he might just deserve a place on the Rushmore unknown by casual fans.

He did lead the Indians to the title after he left Boston. That, at least, will always be noteworthy in some capacity.

csh19792001
04-28-2014, 05:00 PM
For the record Chris I know you know Cobb wasn't a sociopath or even half as nuts as most folks think. Maybe not 90% as nuts. Anyhow I think a lot of the perception of Cobb being considered nearly unanimously better than Speaker in their day and henceforth was/is Cobb's superior base running and stealing when being a top notch base runner was exponentially more important than it is now.

Highest SB totals - Cobb/Speaker:

96/52
83/46
76/42
68/35
65/35
61/35
55/30
53/29
51/25

Cobb was often cited as having the SB record but I doubt most had forgotten Billy Hamilton by 1915. I wonder if Hugh Nicol was mentioned when Cobb stole 96?

Highest Rbaser totals - Cobb/Speaker:

10/2
9/2
8/2
7/1
7/1
4/1
4/1
3/1
3/0
2/0

I'm willing to bet Cobb was far more valuable on the bases than Rbaser indicates.

Great post!! You're correct in your historical rearview mirror perspective, understanding the values that baseball insiders took to heart.

And Hugh Fullerton, Grantland Rice, and many other super famous/revered writers who saw Cobb play 1000's of games, said that the number of bases he took was unfathomable. Even for his time. As well as the number of errors he caused.

So, yes, modern metrics drastically underrate Cobb's base running value; and genius.

Burgess wrote articles/spent about 15 years tirelessly and copiously documenting Cobb's baserunning exploits, and exponentially increased our esteem for Cobb's genius at manufacturing runs, rattling opposing pitchers/catchers, and infielders, and mentally destroying the opposition, generally.

csh19792001
04-28-2014, 05:10 PM
Would Speaker be better remembered if he stayed on the Sox?

I seriously doubt it. The Sox went 859-1089 from 1916-1928.

Here's their record from 1919-1926:
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
7th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
5th of 8
5th of 8
6th of 8

The 1922-1933 Red Sox were the most pathetic franchise (lasting over 10 years) in baseball history. (Aside from Syndicate Baseball of course, which wasn't MLB in any sense of the word.)

607-1064
7th of 8
8th of 8
6th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
7th of 8
8th of 8

Sultan_1895-1948
04-28-2014, 07:09 PM
I seriously doubt it. The Sox went 859-1089 from 1916-1928.


Forgot to write...went to NY in a package purchase in 1920 :dance

PVNICK
04-29-2014, 05:04 AM
I seriously doubt it. The Sox went 859-1089 from 1916-1928.

Here's their record from 1919-1926:
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
7th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
5th of 8
5th of 8
6th of 8

The 1922-1933 Red Sox were the most pathetic franchise (lasting over 10 years) in baseball history. (Aside from Syndicate Baseball of course, which wasn't MLB in any sense of the word.)

607-1064
7th of 8
8th of 8
6th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
8th of 8
7th of 8
8th of 8

Other than the Ruth sale, there were countless other minor ones of star and lesser star players. Waite Hoyt, Wally Schang, Herb Pennock, Everett Scott, Bullet Joe Bush and Sam Jones all were traded to the Yankees with only Del Pratt and I guess Jack Quinn, Ray Caldwell and a young Roger Peckinpaugh going to Boston in return. Not to mention Duffy Lewis and Carl Mays pre-dating the Ruth move. It would seem, as the story goes, that Boston's owner was less than committed to winning. Speaker never would have remained a Red Sox past the early 20s at best.

Dude Paskert
04-29-2014, 08:14 AM
Other than the Ruth sale, there were countless other minor ones of star and lesser star players. Waite Hoyt, Wally Schang, Herb Pennock, Everett Scott, Bullet Joe Bush and Sam Jones all were traded to the Yankees with only Del Pratt and I guess Jack Quinn, Ray Caldwell and a young Roger Peckinpaugh going to Boston in return. Not to mention Duffy Lewis and Carl Mays pre-dating the Ruth move. It would seem, as the story goes, that Boston's owner was less than committed to winning. Speaker never would have remained a Red Sox past the early 20s at best.

Frazee was a NYC Broadway producer who was scrambling for money for his shows...and also was in debt from the Bosox purchase. He had a payment of over $300,000 to make to the previous Bosox owner right about the time he sold Ruth...I think he got $100,000 cash for Ruth plus a $300,000 loan from Ruppert, which I would assume was made on terms favorable to Frazee. Harry was trying to get fast cash out of the team to finance other endeavours rather than trying to benefit from the success of the team over the long term.

csh19792001
04-29-2014, 02:58 PM
Forgot to write...went to NY in a package purchase in 1920 :dance

In that case? He'd now be remembered as a top 10 (possibly #5-#7 all time player), which is where he should be IMO!!!!!! Instead of no one even knowing who he is, he'd be a National Treasure if he was on the Sox Dynasty of 12'-18' and then a Yankee from 1920-1928!!

As I said, only player in history that was perennially #1-#2 greatest outfielder AND a top #2-#4 offensive player every single year, for 15 years.

The greatest tip o' the cap to Speaker is that during the 20 seasons he and Ty Cobb were in the same league (1909-1928), he was statistically dead even with him. In both WAR and Win Shares.

He is easily the most valuable outfielder in baseball history, and I would opine that he was the greatest, as well.

csh19792001
04-29-2014, 03:01 PM
He did lead the Indians to the title after he left Boston.

And that accomplishment is arguably the greatest accomplishment in player/manager history, all things considered, yet it never gets mentioned, and nobody ever gives him credit for it. (http://www.rakuten.com/prod/tris-speaker-and-the-1920-indians/226446898.html?listingId=-1&scid=pla_google_rakuten.com&adid=17260&gclid=CKjW2NLMhr4CFc9i7AodAiIADQ)