Manny for Abreau?

[yankeekiller34BigPapi]

Please tell me this doesn't happen? Bobby Abreau is a good ball player, but he is nowwhere near Manny's ability. I really hate the Boston brass right now, this better not happen so help me god....
If this trade happens, the Sox season is officially lost, they'd be lucky to finish above the Devil Rays. Anybody else have some thoughts on this?

[ElHalo]

Not really sure where you're getting that from. Yes, obviously, you hate to lose a hitter like Manny no matter what you're getting back for him, but Abreu is quite a lot to be getting back. A guy who can consistently hit .300/.400/.500 with 30 steals and great defense in RF? I mean, honestly, what more can you ask for from Manny? The previous big rumor was Manny for Tejada, and I'd possibly take Abreu over Tejada. What better offer do you think you're going to get?

[yankeekiller34BigPapi]

I don't want to get rid of Manny, that's why I don't want Abreau. Bobby is solid, don't get me wrong, but nobody can replace Manny's offensive production.

[moebarguy]

Obviously Manny is a more talented hitter than Abreu, but Abreu is still a top hitter. The Red Sox would still do well, and might even still win the division since their bullpen is so strong now.

[Evangelion]

Manny know for his offensive superiority and also know for being productive each year. Manny post his gaudy numbers each and every year since coming to Boston and during his days with the Indians. Manny is not know for his poor defense, as we all know. I've said many times before, but Manny only has a lot of outfield assists due to playing in Fenway Park. Manny also is not for his speed, but regardless the Red Sox are not a team that run.

With that said, Abreu is more rounded player. Who will probably hit between 280.-300. each season, hit around 20-30 HR a season, should have around 80-100 RBI and have around 25-35 SB. Of course, be an defensive upgrade over Manny. Regardless, I would keep Manny over Abreu any day. Abreu won't steal with the Red Sox since it's not how the Red Sox operate, similar to what the Mets did with Beltran. I will take the superior offensive abilities over Rameriz over Abrue's good defense and good speed.

It won't be a bad deal, but I want Manny out there over Abrue.

[pesky6]

Not really sure where you're getting that from. Yes, obviously, you hate to lose a hitter like Manny no matter what you're getting back for him, but Abreu is quite a lot to be getting back. A guy who can consistently hit .300/.400/.500 with 30 steals and great defense in RF? I mean, honestly, what more can you ask for from Manny? The previous big rumor was Manny for Tejada, and I'd possibly take Abreu over Tejada. What better offer do you think you're going to get?

Considering that no matter what, the Red Sox are going to come out on the short end, so I'd rather see the Sox keep Manny than trade him. There's no way he gets as long of a leash with another team than he has with the Sox.

[runningshoes]

Manny for Abreu and who else?

[SoxSon]

How is everybody? Long time no talk! :waving

If the deal with Manny and Abreu happens, at least we are getting a solid, solid player in return. Abreu does bring elements to the game that Ramirez just can't.

[VIBaseball]

Abreu won't steal with the Red Sox since it's not how the Red Sox operate, similar to what the Mets did with Beltran.

Not really accurate. In most years, the Mets have operated a lot like the Sox, station to station. But in 2005 they were very aggressive in stealing bases under Willie Randolph. They led the NL by far (153), thanks mainly to José Reyes (60, second only to Chone Figgins in MLB).

Beltrán's 17 SB was a low number for him mainly because a quad injury nagged him most of the year.

[moebarguy]

Beltran had a leg injury all year, so that was probably why he had fewer steals last season in comparison to previous years.

[DoubleX]

How is everybody? Long time no talk! :waving

If the deal with Manny and Abreu happens, at least we are getting a solid, solid player in return. Abreu does bring elements to the game that Ramirez just can't.

Hey Soxson, welcome back!

[Mattingly]

Considering that no matter what, the Red Sox are going to come out on the short end, so I'd rather see the Sox keep Manny than trade him. There's no way he gets as long of a leash with another team than he has with the Sox.
By "no matter what", are you referring to "no matter who they trade for", or were you referring to "whether we trade him or not"? If the former, you'd definitely come out on the short end, since I don't think that Pujols will be available anytime soon.

If the latter, I don't expect that Tejada or Abreu will replace Manny's offense, but I think that defense shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not too sure how Abreu's defense is, but you may try posting on the Phillies' forum here to see what they think of him.

I don't think that the Red Sox could expect a single player to equal Manny's offensive production, but then again, you're not being given chopped liver or chump change in return. Up to you.

[Mattingly]

How is everybody? Long time no talk! :waving

If the deal with Manny and Abreu happens, at least we are getting a solid, solid player in return. Abreu does bring elements to the game that Ramirez just can't.
Dude! Where ya been? I was wondering about you. :D

I haven't followed Abreu much, so what are the things that he does that Manny doesn't?

[Evangelion]

Blah, thanks for correction, VIBaseball. :coffee

We'll see how Beltran does on the bases this year. Keep forgetting the Mets are no longer setup with brutal power, but have all around balance team on the offensive side.

[DoubleX]

Short of Miguel Tejada, Bobby Abreu is probably the best player the Sox can get for Manny. Abreu is a very good all-around hitter in his own right (will hit around .300 with 30 homeruns, and drive in over 100), but he's also a terrific fielder with a great arm and a very good baserunner, as he'll steal 30-40 bases. He's also a couple of years younger than Manny. All and all, he does not have Manny's bat (but so few players do), but Abreu is probably a better all-around player than Manny. Though in this case, I'd still prefer to keept he Manny/Ortiz combo together since there is not a better and more lethal offensive 1-2 punch in baseball.

[Mattingly]

Short of Miguel Tejada, Bobby Abreu is probably the best player the Sox can get for Manny. Abreu is a very good all-around hitter in his own right (will hit around .300 with 30 homeruns, and drive in over 100), but he's also a terrific fielder with a great arm and a very good baserunner, as he'll steal 30-40 bases. He's also a couple of years younger than Manny. All and all, he does not have Manny's bat (but so few players do), but Abreu is probably a better all-around player than Manny. Though in this case, I'd still prefer to keept he Manny/Ortiz combo together since there is not a better and more lethal offensive 1-2 punch in baseball.
If the Phillies could be encouraged to toss in a 2nd-tier farmhand into the deal, do you think it would be a fair deal?

I'm not sure what their farm system is like, but I doubt they'd give up a blue chipper unless Boston forks over more money, which I don't see happening. That's why I said 2nd-tier, rather than 1st-tier.

[Kroxquo]

Hello Sox fans. Mattingly asked me to stop in and give some thoughts on this potential deal. I'll say this - Phils phans would take it in a heartbeat, however it won't happen because "Stand Pat" Gillick is quickly being as unpopular in Philly as Ed Wade ever was (and if you don't know what that means, than click on any thread at random in the Phils forum to find out).
Abreu is considered something of an underachiever by phans. Not surprising since Mike Schmidt was also considered something of an underachiever as well. Abreu's gold glove is generally considered to be a practical joke played on the rest of baseball, most people think he's lazy in the field, and could hit for more power, although when he does, most people will say he should hit for more average. If all this is confusing, than you've never spent time with a Philadelphia sports fan. Generally speaking, he is not real popular in Philly.

[Mattingly]

Hello Sox fans. Mattingly asked me to stop in and give some thoughts on this potential deal. I'll say this - Phils phans would take it in a heartbeat, however it won't happen because "Stand Pat" Gillick is quickly being as unpopular in Philly as Ed Wade ever was (and if you don't know what that means, than click on any thread at random in the Phils forum to find out).
Abreu is considered something of an underachiever by phans. Not surprising since Mike Schmidt was also considered something of an underachiever as well. Abreu's gold glove is generally considered to be a practical joke played on the rest of baseball, most people think he's lazy in the field, and could hit for more power, although when he does, most people will say he should hit for more average. If all this is confusing, than you've never spent time with a Philadelphia sports fan. Generally speaking, he is not real popular in Philly.
Thanks for accepting the invite, Kroxquo, and excellent post! :D

Overall, using defense only, is Abreu any better than Manny? I realize that Manny plays LF and Bobby plays RF, but how's his arm, his wheels?

Also, his baserunning overall. Is he very good that that? He's averaged 25-30 steals since 1999.

http://baseball-reference.com/a/abreubo01.shtml

[philsphan]

bobby is an above average runner, he has a decent arm but one thing that kills me about bob is his lack of hustle

[SoxSon]

Dude! Where ya been? I was wondering about you. :D

I haven't followed Abreu much, so what are the things that he does that Manny doesn't?

Thanks for the thoughts, Mattingly.

See DoubleX's post for a reply to this. :)

[SoxSon]

bobby is an above average runner, he has a decent arm but one thing that kills me about bob is his lack of hustle

Yes, if the Manny/Abreu trade went through, we'd really have to work on Bobby's hustle. We're quite used to a certain intense "get-up-and-go" with Ramirez. ;) :p :laugh

[Mattingly]

Thanks for the thoughts, Mattingly.

See DoubleX's post for a reply to this. :)
No problem. Hopefully, we'll see a few Phillies "phans" :D in here chiming in. :p

There's also this new thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38532) under CE, which discusses a fictional potential trade involving Manny, and which club it would benefit benefit, or both.
Yes, if the Manny/Abreu trade went through, we'd really have to work on Bobby's hustle. We're quite used to a certain intense "get-up-and-go" with Ramirez. ;) :p :laugh
Yeah, we Yankee fans always did admire Manny's ahhhhhhhhhhhh ... hustle, oh yeah, that's right. Yup, he heads straight to behind the scoreboard and comes back in a few nanoseconds. It's amazing they've even needed anyone else out there, the way he covers so much ground ...



*hope I can get out of Dodge before the Red Sox fans wonder why some Yankee fan is talking so badly about Manny*

[Mattingly]

This is also being discussed in the Phillies phorum (forum). :D

Please click here (http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38523).

[Texas Rangers]

bobby is an above average runner, he has a decent arm but one thing that kills me about bob is his lack of hustle
Yes, I love the great effort Manny gives when he doesnt get his way or his play out in LF. To be honest, Abreu won't need to hustle. He is twice if not triple the amount of speed that Manny shows. Manny can hit the ball a mile, but I think I'd have to choose Abreu. Abreu is slowly getting better as the years go on.

[Mattingly]

I'm curious, what exactly is Bobby's lack of hustle related to? On the field when playing a ball? On the basepaths when he should have a double but settles for a single? Or does he not bust it out of the box when he gets a hit?

[Androctus]

I'm curious, what exactly is Bobby's lack of hustle related to? On the field when playing a ball? On the basepaths when he should have a double but settles for a single? Or does he not bust it out of the box when he gets a hit?All of the above, and you can toss in his relationship with fans/media as well.

But I expect years of toiling in Philly might do that to a player, some of the better personality traits of guys like Kevin Millwood or Travis Lee will rub off on you. Perhaps a swap to a legitimate playoff team could really energize his game and take it to a new level. A guy like Abreu, who is a spray hitter with excellent op-field power could post some interesting numbers in Fenway.

But this is all subjective. Gillick might be slow to move but I don't think he's an idiot ( I'll wait till Feb to pass judgement on that) any deal he makes with Abreu that doesnt bring the Phils some pitching is not earning him any points towards a contract extension.

[D-No]

It's no better or worse than the Tejada/Manny deal. If Manny is genuinely unhappy in Boston (and I suspect he'd be much happier if he'd stop reading Dan Shaughnessy's columns in the Globe...) then a change of scenery might be in order. What I admire about Red Sox ownership (in this case anyway...) is the fact that they aren't willing to take a significant loss in talent in order to meet Ramirez' wishes. Worst case scenario: we replace a superstar with another superstar. Should we acquire Abreu, we'll likely find a player who's looking to be loved again. I think Fenway would jumpstart Abreu, both offensively and in terms of personal motivation. Should the Tejada trade rumors turn out to be true, we'd receive a topshelf shortstop who is a solid citizen by all accounts. Best case scenario, we keep one of the 3 best right handed batters in the game today. No sweat.

[Imapotato]

I was asked by Mattingly to chime in and as Krux knows, I am very ANTI-Abreu

He is lackadasial, as if he plays the game for $$$ and not to win...there is just something you get from him by watching him...he will make the worst choice at the worst times, a runner on 3rd he will try and pull the ball. a man on 2nd...with the team 1 run down...he will take a walk. He has no idea on the little things needed to win

His lack of hustle in RF is why he has his tainted GG...if you don't GO for chances well then the ones that are right in front of you will pad your stats

Despite Manny's flakiness and horrible defense I would take this trade in a heartbeat

[Mattingly]

Thanks, potato. I really haven't followed Philly, and thus Abreu, very much, but that does seem like a very telling characterization of his entire game.

Sometimes I wonder if the Red Sox should somehow trade for both Tejada and Abreu, then RSN couldn't possibly complain. :D :p :crazy

[DoubleX]

I was asked by Mattingly to chime in and as Krux knows, I am very ANTI-Abreu

He is lackadasial, as if he plays the game for $$$ and not to win...there is just something you get from him by watching him...he will make the worst choice at the worst times, a runner on 3rd he will try and pull the ball. a man on 2nd...with the team 1 run down...he will take a walk. He has no idea on the little things needed to win

His lack of hustle in RF is why he has his tainted GG...if you don't GO for chances well then the ones that are right in front of you will pad your stats

Despite Manny's flakiness and horrible defense I would take this trade in a heartbeat

I'm amazed about the general dislike Philly fans have for Abreu. If you think Abreu is lackadasical in the field, then you're not going to like Manny in the field. At least Abreu has good fielding skill to make up for his lethargy in the field; but Manny is both lazy and a poor natural fielder. His surliness and want to sit out of the lineup every now and then is also a concern. So yeah, if Phillie fans are unhappy with Abreu's attitude, I can't seem them being happy with Manny's attitude.

[VTSoxFan]

While I don't dispute that fielding does not come naturally to Manny, and he has a predilection for spacing out, I do dispute the statement that he is lazy. Teammates, coaches, his managers, writers -- even the cannibalistic Boston writers -- have pointed out that Manny often arrives early and takes hours of extra practice in the field. Back when he talked to the press he said he wished he could be known for his fielding as well as for his batting. I don't think he's necessarily lazy...I just think he hasn't got a natural talent for fielding. He does what he can within the limits of the talent he has in this area. And once in a while he does something spectacular and surprises us all... And then he lopes after a ball and over-runs it, or drops it... For the offense he brings, I'll forgive his failings in the field.

Now, this habit of not running out popups.... that deserves a kick in the pants. 'Course, in his next at-bat, he might go first to third on a short single to right... who knows?

He's far from perfect, but I'd rather he stayed in Boston, thank you.

[SoxSon]

While I don't dispute that fielding does not come naturally to Manny, and he has a predilection for spacing out, I do dispute the statement that he is lazy. Teammates, coaches, his managers, writers -- even the cannibalistic Boston writers -- have pointed out that Manny often arrives early and takes hours of extra practice in the field. Back when he talked to the press he said he wished he could be known for his fielding as well as for his batting. I don't think he's necessarily lazy...I just think he hasn't got a natural talent for fielding. He does what he can within the limits of the talent he has in this area. And once in a while he does something spectacular and surprises us all... And then he lopes after a ball and over-runs it, or drops it... For the offense he brings, I'll forgive his failings in the field.

I think you're right, Annie. I think that Manny is just "hardwired" slower than many players. I think hustle has a different meaning to him, so lazy isn't the right word.


He's far from perfect, but I'd rather he stayed in Boston, thank you.

Also agreed, wholeheartedly. :)

[Gjm130]

That blown deal: Ramirez/Tejada/Prior would potentialy have been the biggest trade in this decade........

Manny Ramirez is the player you want when your team is down one run in the 9th inning. He's the one.
Everyone started opening their eyes when Bobby Abreu won that Home Run derby, let me tell ya something, It Doesn't Mean Anything!!!!

The guy can't hit when you really need him to.

[ricky151]

Well Abreau is a huge defensive jump from Manny. I like Manny's hitting, but Abreau could post similar numbers playing in Boston; lets not forget how much that monster helps a players power numbers. I am expecting Loretta to hit 15 homers next year. I think if Philly takes that huge attitude and huge contract they would be foolish.