Your 19th Century All-Time, All-Star Team

[Bill Burgess]

I'd like to see your best Pre-1900 Teams, A and B teams, with brief notes, if you have them. Not necessary to use them in the traditional positions in which they originally played. You may platoon, if you like. But should have played at least 4-5 seasons before 1900, such as Jimmy Collins, Willie Keeler, Cy Young, George Davis, Jimmy McAleer, Bobby Lowe, etc.

Should not use players with only 2-3 yrs., such as Nap Lajoie, Rube Waddell, Sam Crawford, Wagner.

Any takers? And please do not forget to also post your teams on our other documentation thread, "Member's Official Opinions',
http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137 Thanking you in advance for your participation.--Bill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Form Chart:

Catchers:
Jack Clements, "Deacon" Jim McGuire, Moses Fleetwood Walker, Buck Ewing, Mike "King" Kelly, Charlie Bennett, Charles "Pop" Snyder, Marty Bergen, Duke Farrell, John Warner, Moses Fleetwood Walker, Wilbert Robinson, Doc Bushong, Connie Mack.

1B
Joe Start, Roger Connor, Charles Comiskey, Wes Fisler, Dan Brouthers, Jake Beckley, Fred Tenney, Ed Konetchy, Adrian "Cap" Anson, Dave Orr, Henry Larkin, Cal McVey

2B
Ross Barnes, Jack Burdock, Fred Pfeffer, Cupid Childs, Bid McPhee, Jimmy Williams, Fred Dunlap, Hardy Richardson, Sol White, Frank Grant, Bud Fowler, Gene DeMontreville, Bobby Lowe.

SS
George Wright, Ed McKean, John Montgomery Ward, Jack Glasscock, Herman Long, Hughie Jennings, George Davis, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Corcoran, Freddie Parent, Dickey Pearce

3B:
Ezra Sutton, Levi Meyerle, Bob Ferguson, Arlie Latham, Ned Williamson, John McGraw, Jimmie Collins, Bill Nash, Jim Davis, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Deacon White, Jerry Denny, Bill Joyce, Levi Meyerle

LF
Harry Stovey, Ed Delahanty, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke, Tip O'Neill, Abner Dalrymple

CF:
Jimmie McAleer, Bill Lange, George Gore, Jimmy Ryan, Harry Wright, Paul Hines, Lip Pike, Tom Brown, George Van Haltren, Dummy Hoy, Billy Hamilton, Hugh Duffy, Ollie Pickering, Curt Welch, Dickey Johnson, Pete Browning, Mike Griffin


RF
Willie Keeler, Jimmy Fogarty, Sam Thompson, Mike Tiernan, Oyster Burns


Pitchers:
Tim Keefe, John "Monte" Ward, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, Jim "Pud" Galvin, Mickey Welch, Sadie McMahon, Jim McCormick, Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourne, Amos Rusie, Jim Whitney, Larry Corcoran, Clark Griffith, Al Spalding, Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Charlie Ferguson, Tony Mullane, Silver King, Bobby Mathews, Tommy Bond, Jim Creighton, Gus Weyhing, Jack Stivetts, Will White, Ted Breitenstein, Adonis Terry, Will White, Charlie Buffington, Bill Hutchison, Guy Hecker, Terry Larkin, George Bradley, Fred Goldsmith, Ed Morris, Dave Foutz, Toad Ramsey, Jim Devlin, Matt Kilroy, Ben Sanders, Elton Chamberlain.

[RuthMayBond]

Not sure if you want ANY 20th century playing time so will keep to bare minimum

P-Keefe
P-Clarkson
P-Rusie
P-Spalding/Radbourn
C-Ewing
1B-Brouthers
2B-McPhee
3B-if you won't let Lave Cross/Jimmy Collins squeak, then Deacon White?
SS-if not George Davis/Dahlen, then maybe Herman Long
LF-if not Ed Delahanty/Burkett, then Jim O'Rourke
CF-BHamilton
RF-if not Keeler, then Sam Thompson

If I can get away with 3 CF, I might go with Jimmy Ryan and Pete Browning

[Dodger]

C- Buck Ewing
1B - Dan Brouthers
2B - Bid McPhee
3B - John McGraw
SS - Hugh Jennings
LF - Ed Delahanty
CF - Billy Hamilton
RF - Sam Thompson
U - Mike Kelly
Pitchers - Kid Nichols, Amos Rusie, Cy Young, Tim Keefe

[leecemark]

C: Ewing, Bennett
1B: Anson, Brouthers
2B: McPhee, Richardson
3B: White, Conner (Sutton for Conner if I need a real 3B)
SS: Jennings, Glasscock
LF: Delahanty, O'Rourke
CF: Hamilton, Hines
RF: Kelly, Thompson
P: Clarkson, Nichols, Keefe, Rusie, Caruthers, Spaulding, Radbourne, Muillane, Galvin
--Thats 25 with nobody who played more than a couple years after the turn of the century

[baseballPAP]

I based this on time spent pre 1900, regardless of what a player did after the turn of the century.
A/B/C
C- Buck Ewing/King Kelly/Charlie Bennett
1B-Dan Brouthers/Cap Anson/Roger Connor
2B-Cupid Childs/Bid McPhee/Fred Dunlap
SS-Hugh Jennings/Bill Dahlen/Bill Joyce
3B-John McGraw/Denny Lyons/Arlie Latham
LF-Ed Delahanty/Jesse Burkett/Pete Browning
CF-Billy Hamilton/Bill Lange/George Gore
RF-Sam Thompson/Hugh Duffy/Mike Tiernan
UT-Deacon White/George Davis/Jim O'Rourke
P-Kid Nichols/Hoss Radbourn/Tony Mullane
P-Cy Young/Tim Keefe/Mickey Welch
P-John Clarkson/Amos Rusie/Jim McCormick

A lot of other notables, but most had short peaks...like a meteor, burn bright but not for long. These include Tip O'Neill, Ed Swartwood, Bob Caruthers, George Bradley, George Wright, Ezra Sutton, Ross Barnes, Charley Jones and a few more. First base is by far the strongest position, RF probably the weakest. Pitchers read down, not side to side...meaning Nichols, oung and Clarkson are first team, etc.

[jalbright]

C Buck Ewing
1b Cap Anson
2b Hardy Richardson
3b Deacon White
SS Monte Ward/George Davis
OF Jim O'Rourke, Paul Hines, Billy Hamilton
P Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Charlie Radbourn, Pud Galvin

I'm trying to avoid guys who are as well known for their play from 1900 on (like Cy Young), though the shortstop situation makes it tough to hold to that idea. I'm also consciously trying to push pitchers from before the 60' 6" pitching rubber. I prefer O'Rourke over Delahanty in left, but I'm not sure I can see the other one in right, so I went with two center fielders.

Jim Albright

[Babe is the best]

C - Buck Ewing, King Kelly - 2 of the most well known players of the era, Buck often cited as best all around for his time, can't ignore that.
1B - Dan Brouthers, Cap Anson, Roger Connor, would hate to leave any of them off, the strongest position easily.
2B - Nap Lajoie - I know, I know, but he did have 2 big years pre 1900 also.
If Lajoie is excluded then Cupid Childs and Bid McPhee.
3B - John McGraw, Deacon White - I would need to research more and don't have time unfortunately. Gotta like McGraw's on base avg. though.
SS - Honus Wagner, I know, same as Lajoie, but he did have 2 big pre-1900 seasons also. Hughie Jennings and George Davis.
LF - Ed Delahanty, the best offensive player pre 1900. Jesse Burkett.
CF - Sliding Billy Hamilton, very underrated in my opinion. Hugh Duffy.
RF - Sam Thompson, also underrated. Willie Keeler.
Pitchers - Kid Nichols, Cy Young, Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Pud Galvin, Ol' Hoss Radbourn, Amos Rusie, Al Spaulding.

That's 25 not counting Lajoie and Wagner.

Lineup:
CF Hamilton
3B McGraw
LF Delahanty
RF Thompson
1B Brouthers
C Ewing
2B Childs
SS Jennings
P Nichols

With a DH
CF Hamilton
3B McGraw
LF Delahanty
RF Thompson
1B Brouthers
DH Anson or Connor
C Ewing
2B Childs
SS Jennings

What a great topic, I HATE all those baseball books that start with 1901!

[Brad Harris]

C - Buck Ewing
1B - Dan Brouthers
2B - Hardy Richardson
SS - Hughie Jennings
3B - Ezra Sutton
LF - Ed Delahanty
CF - Billy Hamilton
RF - King Kelly
P - Kid Nichols, John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, Cy Young

Second Team
C - Charlie Bennett
1B - Cap Anson
2B - Cupid Childs
SS - George Wright
3B - Deacon White
LF - Charley Jones
CF - Paul Hines
RF - Sam Thompson
P - Amos Rusie, Al Spalding, Charley Radbourn, Bob Caruthers

[KCGHOST]

I also ignored anthing they did after 1900.

C- Buck Ewing/Fred Carroll/Charlie Bennett
1B-Dan Brouthers//Roger Connor/Cap Anson
2B-Cupid Childs/Fred Dunlap/Hardy Richardson
SS-Hugh Jennings/Bill Dahlen/Jack Glasscock
3B-John McGraw/Denny Lyons/Bill Joyce
LF-Ed Delahanty/Jesse Burkett/Tip O'Neill
CF-Billy Hamilton/Pete Browning/Hugh Duffy/
RF-Sam Thompson/King Kelly/Mike Tiernan
P-Kid Nichols//Cy Young/John Clarkson
P-Amos Rusie/Tim Keefe/Old Hoss Radbourn

[SABR Matt]

C - Buck Ewing (starter)/Pop Snyder (backc-up and defensive replacement)
1B- Roger Connor (hits AND fields)/Dan Brouthers (just hits)
2B- Bid McPhee (best glove at second all time)/Cupid Childs (perfect utility swing IFer)
3B- Jimmie Collins (glove #2 all time and could hit a bit)/Ned Williamson (also good fielder and solid hitter)
SS- Bill Dahlen (fields and hits)/Herman Long (best defensive SS not named Ozzie)
LF- Ed Delahanty (best all around hitting OFer of the 19th century)
CF- Billy Hamilton (lead-off stud)/Jimmy McAleer (brilliant fielder)
RF- Willie Keeler

14 position players carried

I'll ake 6 pitchers and make it a 20 man roster

1) Cy Young (even excluding his 1900+ years)
2) Kid Nichols
3) John Clarkson
4) Tim Keefe
5) Bob Caruthers
6) Pud Galvin/Hoss Rdbourne..can't decide...LOL

[TheSlaff]

C- Buck Ewing (Charlie Bennett)
1B- Dan Brouthers (Roger Connor)
2B- Cupid Childs (Hardy Richardson)
SS- Hughie Jennings (George Davis)
3B- Ezra Sutton (Deacon White)
LF- Ed Delahanty (Jesse Burkett)
CF- Billy Hamilton (Paul Hines)
RF- Sam Thompson (Mike Tiernan)
SP- Kid Nichols (John Clarkson)
UT- Monte Ward (King Kelly)

[yest]

1B Cap Anson
2B Ross Barnes
SS George Wright
3B John McGraw
C Buck Ewing
RF Willie Keeler
CF Billy Hamilton
LF Ed Delahanty
P Kid Nichols

[Baseball Guru]

C - Buck Ewing
1B- Dan Brouthers
2B- Cupid Childs
3B- John McGraw
SS- Hughie Jennings
LF- Ed Delahanty
CF- Billy Hamilton
RF- Willie Keeler

Pitchers:
Cy Young
Tim Keefe
John Clarkson
Kid Nichols
Charley Radbourn

[HDH]

Team 1

C-Buck Ewing
1B-Adrian Anson
2B-Bid McPhee
SS-Jack Glasscock
3B-Arlie Latham
RF-Sam Thompson
CF-Billy Hamilton
LF-Ed Delehanty

SP Kid Nichols
SP Cy Young
SP Amos Rusie
SP Ole Hoss Radbourne
SP John Clarkson

Team 2
C- Deacon White
1B Dan Brouthers
2B Cupid Childs
SS Ed McKean
3B Lave Cross
RF Willie Keeler
CF George Gore
LF Jesse Burkett

SP Tim Keefe
SP Pud Galvin
SP Mickey Welch
SP Clark Griffith
SP Bobby Mathews

[Bill Burgess]

A Team - B Team

1B - Brouthers - Anson
2B - Barnes - McPhee
SS - Jennings - Long
3B - McGraw - Williamson
C - Ewing - Kelly
OF - McAleer/Ryan/Lange - Keeler/Gore/Delahanty
P - Rusie/Clarkson/Nichols/Radbourne/Keefe/Welch - Galvin/Young/Breitenstein/Buffington/Creighton/Mullane
Mgr. - Hanlon - Anson

[538280]

C-Buck Ewing, Charlie Bennett
1B-Roger Connor, Dan Brouthers
2B-Bid McPhee, Cupid Childs
3B-Deacon White, Lave Cross
SS-Bill Dahlen, George Davis (or Glasscock if he played too much 20th century)
LF-Ed Delahanty, Harry Stovey
CF-Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines
RF-Sam Thompson, Mike Tiernan

P-Kid Nichols, Amos Rusie, Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Charlie Radbourn

[538280]

Bill, I realize you have both Brouthers and Anson ahead of Connor. Might want to rethink that. Anson had great longevity, but much of that was against unbelievably questionable compeition in the NA, and much of that was his decline phase when he was hardly much of a player at all and was probably playing himself for no good reason. While they were both active, Connor absolutely dominated Anson. I have demonstrated before that every year when both were active and played a full season, with the exception of two seasons at the very beginning and end of Connor's career, Connor was rated the better player by every statistical system. Connor had a great bat AND glove (Anson lacked the latter), and unlike Anson was also a great teammate.

Brouthers was a slightly better hitter than Connor, but Connor was just as good at his peak, lasted longer, and has a large fielding advantage.

[ElHalo]

Anson had great longevity, but much of that was against unbelievably questionable compeition in the NA, and much of that was his decline phase when he was hardly much of a player at all and was probably playing himself for no good reason.

I too have Connor and Brouthers well ahead of Anson, but it's really not fair to say he was hardly much of a player at all in his later years. After age 40, he had four seasons with at least 90 RBI and a .300 average (the RBI totals are impressive seeing as how he topped 110 games exactly once in that span, at 122 in 1895).

[ElHalo]

And why don't more people have Hughie Jennings here? He had one of the greatest five year peaks of anybody ever, scoring runs and stealing bases like a madman, while playing some of the best SS defense ever to grace a diamond. And he even had decent longevity, managing to stick around long enough to play 17 seasons.

[Buzzaldrin]

Brouthers was a slightly better hitter than Connor, but Connor was just as good at his peak, lasted longer, and has a large fielding advantage.

There is no justification whatsoever for this statement. It is just plain not true. Dan Brouthers was one of the best hitters of ALL-TIME; Roger Connor was one of the best hitters of his era. There is a big difference between the two. Playing against the same pitchers in the same leagues, Brouthers consistently put up numbers no one would match until Cobb and Ruth came along. Connor did not come close.

I don't even understand the "lasted longer" part really, since they each played the same number of seasons; it just took Brouthers an extra year to become a regular and he had some injuries at the end of his career- I assume you mean that part of your statement because these factors combined to give Brouthers about 1,000 AB fewer than Connor.

And what did he do better than Connor? Just about everything. For starters, he still has the 9th highest lifetime BA, and only ONCE in his whole career (in seasons of over 200 AB) hit as low as Connor's CAREER mark. He scored less than 100 runs fewer than Connor and drove in 26 fewer- again in over 1,000 fewer AB. He outdoubled Connor (not just per AB but in real terms), he hit more triples per AB for his career, won five batting titles, seven slugging titles, led the league in doubles, triples, homers, RBI, runs- adjusted OPS+ EIGHT times- heck, he's SEVENTH lifetime in that department, ahead of Cobb, Jackson, Foxx, Mays, Aaron, DiMaggio, etc. Dan Brouthers made the Hall of Fame in 1945 because he was the best hitter of his day, and well deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the Williams', Cobb's, and Ruth's of the world.

The only batting category Connor tops Brouthers in is homers- and I'm judging this as per AB, by the way- Connor has him there, but not by much. Either way, it's a moot point because Sam Thompson beats the pants off of both of them in that department (do the math), clearly leading the pack in pre-1900 long long long ball. Even Connor's best seasons do not put him on a temporary par with Brouthers- look at 1885, Connor's lone batting title year. Connor also led the league in on base percentage and total bases. That same year, Brouthers was second in those three categories, but himself led the league in slugging, extra base hits, and OPS+.

I cannot emphasize it enough, Connor was simply not the hitter Big Dan was. NOBODY was. Heck, even the little things, Connor had the fortune to play for New York; Brouthers played the first half of his career with Buffalo- meaning that he got to face Welch and Keefe all year and Connor never had to.

Connor WAS a better fielder than Brouthers. No one's arguing that. However, Brouthers more than held his own against the pack, and did manage to lead the league in fielding once- to Connor's four times. They each led the league in errors twice, but still there's no question who was better in the field.

However, the difference in fielding in no way compensates for the difference at the bat, and Big Dan was just way better than all comers.

[Baseball Guru]

And why don't more people have Hughie Jennings here? He had one of the greatest five year peaks of anybody ever, scoring runs and stealing bases like a madman, while playing some of the best SS defense ever to grace a diamond. And he even had decent longevity, managing to stick around long enough to play 17 seasons.


I agree.. Thats why I have him on my list...:D


There is no justification whatsoever for this statement. It is just plain not true. Dan Brouthers was one of the best hitters of ALL-TIME; Roger Connor was one of the best hitters of his era. There is a big difference between the two. Playing against the same pitchers in the same leagues, Brouthers consistently put up numbers no one would match until Cobb and Ruth came along. Connor did not come close.


Yeah, I would tend to agree with that... Brouthers really was a fantastic player and one of the best of the 19th century....

[timetripper]

I found an old picture of a group of ball players, and I believe that group would comprise my ninteenth century team.
John Ward
Willie Keeler
John Clarkson
Cap Anson
Roger Connor
Cy Young
Dan Brouthers
Tip O'neill
Billy Hamilton
I think that is about as good a it gets. Not only were they all great ball players but they lead teams to championships. My most underrated ninteenth century ballplayers are Deacon White and George Gore. How many championship teams did each of them help lead? My most overrated ninteenth century ball players Buck Ewing and Mike Kelly.

[Bill Burgess]

Guys,

It is perfectly acceptable to use players who played into the 1900's, as long as they played a significant portion of their careers in the 1800's.

Such players would include Cy Young, Jimmy Collins, George Davis, Willie Keeler, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, Bobby Lowe.

But Honus Wagner/Nap Lajoie? You know better than that. Please stop trying to get away with stuff you know you shouldn't. Please? It's just historically inappropriate.

Could the offenders go back and make your appropriate revisions/adjustments?
----------------------------------------------
Not necessary to use them in the traditional positions in which they originally played. You may platoon, if you like. But should have played at least 4-5 seasons before 1900, such as Jimmy Collins, Willie Keeler, Cy Young, George Davis, Jimmy McAleer, Bobby Lowe, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, etc.

Should not use players with only 2-3 yrs., such as Nap Lajoie, Rube Waddell, Sam Crawford.
---------------------------------
Would any of you consider adding these great teams to your posts in "Members Official Opinions"? These are valid opinions, and deserve to go into your official files. http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

[Buzzaldrin]

I found an old picture of a group of ball players, and I believe that group would comprise my ninteenth century team.
John Ward
Willie Keeler
John Clarkson
Cap Anson
Roger Connor
Cy Young
Dan Brouthers
Tip O'neill
Billy Hamilton
I think that is about as good a it gets. Not only were they all great ball players but they lead teams to championships. My most underrated ninteenth century ballplayers are Deacon White and George Gore. How many championship teams did each of them help lead? My most overrated ninteenth century ball players Buck Ewing and Mike Kelly.

Read some comtemporary literature or even modern newspaper collections from way back when like "A Tale of Four Cities" (a fabulous book about the 1889 pennant races available from Amazon) and I think you will see how immensely valuable Buck Ewing was in so many ways it's almost scary. I believe he's actually quite under-rated and completely understand how he got so much support for the Hall in 1936, and do NOT understand why people overlook him so much today compared to other 19th c stars.. I do, however, agree with you about Kelly- especially after he opened his bar he really squandered his talent.

And any 19th c team that has Hamilton and O'Neill on it is alright with me! My heroes (as most of you know by now).

[Bill Burgess]

Read some comtemporary literature or even modern newspaper collections from way back when like "A Tale of Four Cities" (a fabulous book about the 1889 pennant races available from Amazon) and I think you will see how immensely valuable Buck Ewing was in so many ways it's almost scary. I believe he's actually quite under-rated and completely understand how he got so much support for the Hall in 1936, and do NOT understand why people overlook him so much today compared to other 19th c stars..
Thank you, Buzz. Here's my standard piece on the great Buck.
http://baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=297815&postcount=76

Bill

[The Kid]

My All Time 19th Century Team:

C:
Buck Ewing, King Kelly

1B:
Cap Anson, Dan Brouthers, Roger Connors

2B:
Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee

3B:
Jimmy Collins, John McGraw

SS
Hughie Jennings, George Davis

OF
Willie Keeler, Ed Delehanty, Billy Hamilton, Jesse Burkett

Pitchers:
Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Pud Galvin, Al Spalding, Tim Keefe, Jim Whitney, Amos Russie, Clark Griffith, Monte Ward, Ed Morris

Honorable Mentions:

1B Charles Comiskey, SS Herman Long, OF Dummy Hoy, 3B Deacon White, OF Pete Browning, OF Sam Thompson, OF Jim O'Rourke.

My 19th Century All Star Team in today's present form of 32 all-stars if the Honorable Mentions are counted.

[achester99]

Boy was I excited to find this! I love wasting my time on stuff like this and I've already made my all-time Team of the Decade for each decade of baseball. For the 19th century I decided to just make one team, which fits right in with what you guys are doing! So here is my team.

Note: I ONLY used data for games played between 1871-1899. Anything done from 1900 onward has no impact. (Also, teams listed are for the player's primary team during the 19th century; red denotes HOF.)

Lineup:
1. Billy Hamilton, CF, Philadelphia Phillies.

860 SB and a .349 AVG.
2. Hughie Jennings, SS, Baltimore Orioles.

.323 AVG and 820 runs in his first eight seasons.
3. Dan Brouthers, 1B, Buffalo Bisons.

.344 AVG, .944 OPS, 106 HR, he's the third most valuable hitter of the century after Thompson and Cap.
4. Sam Thompson, RF, Philadelphia Phillies.

127 HR (second most of the century), .331 AVG.
5. Hugh Duffy, LF, Boston Beaneaters.

Actually spent more time at CF, 102 HR, 548 SB, .326 AVG
6. George Davis, 3B, New York Giants.

.313 AVG, one of only two HOF third basemen from the era.
7. Buck Ewing, C, New York Giants.

Leads catchers in RBI (883), R (1129), SB (354), AVG (.303), OPS (.807).
8. Bid McPhee, 2B, Cincinnati Reds.

The only HOF 2B, he leads in RBI (1067), R (1678), and SB (568), even if his rates aren't as good as Cupid Childs' (who only played ten years).

Bench:
Ed Delahanty, OF, Philadelphia Phillies. .345 AVG and .915 OPS.
Roger Connor, 1B, New York Giants. Century-leading 138 HR and a .317 AVG.
Cap Anson, 1B, Chicago Cubs. His incredibly long career means he leads in nearly all stats, including R (1996) and RBI (2076), along with a .333 AVG.
Joe Kelley, OF, Baltimore Orioles. .340 AVG and .925 OPS.
Bill Joyce, 3B, New York Giants. A short career keeps him out of the HOF, but in only seven years he pounded 70 HR and had a position-best .902 OPS.
King Kelley, OF/C, Chicago Cubs. He is behind a few others in the outfield, including George Van Haltre, Jesse Burkett, and Jimmy Ryan, but we need a backup catcher and his numbers are better than any other, including a .308 AVG and 368 steals in only seven seasons in which the stat was kept.

Pitchers
Tim Keefe, New York Giants
John Clarkson, Boston Braves
Charley Radbourn, Providence Grays
Kid Nichols, Boston Braves
Al Spalding, Boston Braves. He can also play CF or 1B, having averaged 55 RBI and 70 R a season to go with his .313 AVG.
Cy Young, Cleveland Spiders
John Ward, New York Giants. Ward actually played more games at shortstop and second than as a pitcher, which means he is also this team's backup middle infielder, for which he is qualified with 1408 runs, 867 RBI, and 540 steals (a stat which wasn't even kept for almost half his career!).
Pud Galvin, Buffalo Bisons. Galvin was a workhorse, leading baseball in wins and losses during the century because of 14 full seasons of work.
Amos Rusie, New York Giants
Jim McCormick, Cleveland Spiders
Bob Caruthers, St. Louis Cardinals. I give Caruthers the last spot on the team over other qualified pitchers because of his versatility. As an outfielder he scored over 500 runs, over 150 steals, and an OPS of almost .800.

[HDH]

Just think, all these pitchers are submarine and side armed hurlers.

[Second Base Coach]

Here are some early players of note, keeping with the spirit of a 40 man roster (plus Cap Anson to run the team) and avoiding some players who had careers which spilled over into the 20th Century to a large degree like Larry Lajoie. I have no rule or cutoff for this, so my squad may not be consistent from player to player on the cutoff. (and I am aware some of these players played more than one position, and some even caught a game or two). I will try to keep it at three or four players around each infield position. I know the best outfielder I leave off proably could out-hit the infielder listed, but here is my list anyway without looking up tooooo many stats:

Infielders:

Catchers:
Buck Ewing
Fred Carroll
Jack Clements
Charlie Bennett
Deacon McGuire

First Basemen:
Dan Brouthers
Roger Connor
Cap Anson

Second Basemen:
Cupid Childs
Fred Dunlap
Hardy Richardson
Bid McPhee

Third Basemen:
Bill Joyce
John McGraw
Denny Lyons
Deacon White

Shortstop:
George Davis
Jack Glasscock
Hughie Jennings
Bill Dahlen

Outfield:
Billy Hamilton
Ed Delahanty
King Kelly
Pete Browning
Sam Thompson
Mike Tiernan
Jim O'Rourke
George Gore
Jesse Burkett
Willie Keeler
Joe Kelley
Bill Lange

Pitchers:
Kid Nichols
Cy Young
John Clarkson
Amos Rusie
Tim Keefe
Old Hoss Radbourn
Tony Mullane
Mickey Welch
Pud Galvin

[BillOK]

I'm new to this so I may be a bit late on this subject, but I just love stuff like this.

Catcher: King Kelly ~ Just about the greatest utility player ever, his errors & passed balls are troubling, but he had the quickest of wits and would no doubt be a huge advantage to any pitcher.

1st Base: Dan Brouthers ~ The best hitter of the era, hands down.

2nd Base: Ross Barnes ~ I know this guy will raise a few eyebrows, but look at what we have. A league dominate hitter for average, power, and getting on base via the walk ( small #'s due to 9 balls needed to walk ). Played a difficult position to perfection, with range and sure handedness. Great base stealer and very fast. Also could play short or third as well as anyone. Truely this is the ultimate all-around player. As far as the competition, he out hit every one,Anson was great but not as good. Had he not been permanently weakened by his illness of 1877, he would have been the 1st player to 3000 hits. The fair-foul hit? Please, it just showed how great is bat control was, and he could hit without it. The guy is Wagner with a better eye at the plate!

3rd Base: John McGraw ~ Had a short career, but was an on-base machine, fast and skilled on the bases, played a high average 3rd base or a little better. Anyway, having a guy who was maybe the best baseball mind ever on your team can't hurt either.

Shortstop: Hugh Jennings ~ A teammate of McGraw and another player with a short but peaked career, for the time he was at his best he was the best fielder out there, who could hit for average and get on base with an amazing skill for being plunked, could run and steal, and was a smart baseball man himself.

Leftfield: Ed Delehanty ~ Underated all-around player, Ed had no weaknesses and a ton of strengths.

Centerfield: Billy Hamilton ~ The best leadoff man ever ( sorry Ricky ), vastly underated due to his quite nature. He didn't hit for power or have a good arm, but what he had as awesome.

Rightfield: Sam Thompson ~ Making it a sweep for the Phils in the 1890's, Big Sam was a great power/average hitter who played a fine right with a cannon for an arm. Figured out long after his death, he was the best RBI man ever!

Righthanded Starter: Tim Keefe ~ A workhorse with a eye for winning.

Second Starter: Bob Caruthers ~ I would have picked a lefty here but they were few in this era. Bob was a small man ( even back then ), but could pitch,hit, field, & run. Take a look at how winning seems to follow him through his career, it's not just luck.

Utility Man/ Pinch hitter: George Davis ~ A guy who hit well, ran real well, and fielded great, be it in the OF, at 3rd, or at SS. Awesome team value.

[Bill Burgess]

Would any of you consider adding these great teams to your posts in "Members Official Opinions"? These are valid opinions, and deserve to go into your official files. http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=38137

[jjpm74]

C: Buck Ewing, Charlie Bennett
1B: Joe Start, Cap Anson
2B: Ross Barnes, Bid McPhee
SS: Jack Glasscock, Dickey Pearce
3B: Ezra Sutton, Deacon White
LF: Jim O'Rourke, Charlie Jones
CF: Paul Hines, George Gore
RF: King Kelly, Sam Thompson
P: Bob Caruthers, Tim Keefe
P: Charley Radbourne, Larry Corcoran
P: Pud Galvin, John Clarkson
P: Tony Mullane, Amos Rusie

[RuthMayBond]

1B: Joe Start, Cap Anson
2B: Ross YoungsInteresting priority, and 2B choice

[jjpm74]

Oops. Ross Barnes.

Yes, I do consider Joe Start a more important 1st baseman than Cap Anson.

[dina123]

C-Buck Ewing,Charlie Bennett
1B-Joe Start,Cap Anson
2B-Ross Barnes,Bid McPhee
P-Bob Caruthers,Tim Keefe
P-Pud Galvin
CF-Paul Hines
According to me, these are the greatest players of this era.
===========
williams
Minnesota Drug Treatment (http://www.drugtreatments.com/minnesota)

[Bill Burgess]

According to me, these are the greatest players of this era.
Welcome to Fever, dina123! Hope you have the time of your life!

Bill

[docsilvereagle]

c - Connie Mack
1b - Cap Anson
2b - Cupid Childs
SS - Jack Glasscock
3b - John McGraw
LF - Ed Delahanty
CF - Dummy Hoy or Ollie Pickering
RF - Oyster Burns
P - Cy Young
Pud Galvin
Old Hoss Radbourne
Al Spalding or Clark Griffith

Only 4 pitchers though most teams only carried 3 back then

[Bill Burgess]

Does anyone else wish to contribute their All-Time 19th Century All-Star teams, A & B?

Bill

[BillOK]

Catcher~~ ~~~Kelly (Ewing)
1st Base!~~~~ Brouthers (Stovey)
2nd Base~~~~~ Barnes (Childs)
3rd Base~ ~~~~McGraw (Cross)
Shortstop~~~~~Jennings (Glasscock)
Leftfield~~~~~~Delehanty(Kelley)
Centerfield~~~~Hamilton (Duffy)
Rightfield~~~~~Thompson (Keeler)
Starting Pitchers~~~Nichols, Caruthers, Hecker

A few points;
1) Kelly's fielding #'s are crazy. His assists,errors,etc. are so nuts something must have been going on lost to time. B. James thinks he was the 5th infielder when listed in the OF. Maybe. The errors are interesting, super high, yet he played for a manager ( Anson ) who would have been on him all the time, and they won, 5 pennants in 6 years with Chicago. Sure he liked to drink too. Could he have made errors on purpose when they were harmless to use that someway when it ment something? Maybe playing mind games with opponents to lull them in to security and slam it shut when important. He's on my team cause he was as gifted athleticly as anyone and smarter than most.

2) Barnes is clearly a troubling pick. But look it up, he dominated opponents yearly before sickness took his strength away for good. Those same opponents would go on to be some of the best players around ( Anson, White, O'Rourk ), I am sure Barnes would have continues his upper hand. As to the competition he faced, looking at those other players I find no majic time or year that a Major league is born, just steady play year by year. So if we compare him to his peers he comes out on top by a huge amount. If you think of it, Barnes could hit for average, hit for power, draw walks, steal bases ( he was very fast ) and play difficult positions ( 2nd and SS ) with great range and sure handedness ! Wagner is often called the greatest for his all-around talents, but he didn't have Barnes eye for walks. Ross Barnes is perhaps the greatest all-around player in base ball & baseball history!

3) McGraw was an on base marvel, and having maybe the best baseball mind every makes him SOOO valuable.

4) The Phillies' OF was something wasn't it?

5) I'm a sucker for a fine pitcher who is a fine hitter too, the value makes up for a little bit less pitching skill.

6) Why did Stovey play 1st base so much, alternating with CF no less? He was super fast, and won long throw contests so his arm was super, all in all a great CF'er in the makeup. Yet he plays 1st half the time, well he's here cause he is after Barnes the most underrated player in the 19th century.

7) Can you believe Billy Hamilton did not go in to the Hall of Fame till 1961!!

[RuthMayBond]

2) Barnes is clearly a troubling pick. But look it up, he dominated opponents yearly before sicknessAnd maybe a rule change?

<As to the competition he faced, looking at those other players I find no majic time or year that a Major league is born, just steady play year by year.>

You think the 1870s (and before) are pretty comparable with the 1960s?

<Wagner is often called the greatest for his all-around talents, but he didn't have Barnes eye for walks.>

When leading the league meant maybe twenty walks, and his career total was just over a hundred

<Ross Barnes is perhaps the greatest all-around player in base ball & baseball history!>

If you like MIGHTY small ponds...

[HDH]

The more I research, the more I'm impressed with Harry Stovey. He's jumped up to #1 in my book of best player not in the HOF. He's one of three players with more runs scored than games played (Not by much however). For his period, he was an outstanding slugger and a great base stealer. He's credited as the 1st player to reach the 100 HR pinnacle and has over 500 SB in spite of the fact they were not recorded until midway through his career. He's credited with popularizing the feet first slide and for wearing sliding pads. To me, most impressively for his period, he had over 110 R for 9 straight years.

The biggest mystery to me is how he played defensively. I gather Stovey was moved around yearly in a similar fashion that Stan Musial was. Stovey played the position he was needed at. He played LF after LF Harry Larkin began to play 1B exclusively due to his inability to judge fly balls. In addition, Stovey played along side an exceptional fielding CF Curt Welch. So, we can't judge if he would've been a good CF. Remember, in his era, we can't judge players defensive ability by looking at error totals. The 1B position was more a fielding position being played as much outside the foul lines as within them. All factors, vague as they are, I have to judge him a good fielder. Altough, I can't call this an absolute judgement.

Overall, if I make a 19th century all time all star team, I have to find a place for Harry Stovey. For instance, simply putting the best players by position may not make a good overall team. The lineup must balance out. I think when you ask a manager his all time team, he considers that aspect unless he's short sighted like many managers today seem to be.

[Brad Harris]

Guys,

It is perfectly acceptable to use players who played into the 1900's, as long as they played a significant portion of their careers in the 1800's.

Such players would include Cy Young, Jimmy Collins, George Davis, Willie Keeler, John McGraw, Clark Griffith, Bobby Lowe.

But Honus Wagner/Nap Lajoie? You know better than that. Please stop trying to get away with stuff you know you shouldn't. Please? It's just historically inappropriate.
And by "historically inappropriate," Bill means both inappropriate for the study of history as well as inappropriate on a historic scale! :laugh

Gonna have to start using that from now on. "That's just historically inappropriate." </disgust> :D Just another bat in the proverbial rack from which Bill pulverizes so many pellets from this period. Another peak in the parade to procuring a providential pennant for the perspiring professor of perseverance in his probing for priceless pearls and prizes of primeval philosophy, proficiencies and propaganda. Praises!

[Bill Burgess]

And by "historically inappropriate," Bill means both inappropriate for the study of history as well as inappropriate on a historic scale! :laugh

Gonna have to start using that from now on. "That's just historically inappropriate." </disgust> :D
Didn't think I could be so pithy, did ya, now?

Just another bat in the proverbial rack from which Bill pulverizes so many pellets from this period. Another peak in the parade to procuring a providential pennant for the perspiring professor of perseverance in his probing for priceless pearls and prizes of primeval philosophy, proficiencies and propaganda. Praises!
That's a lotta lovin' alliteration, my loquacious lad.