greatest brown not in the hall of fame?

[oscargamblesfro]

the only hall of famers that can truly be thought of as going in as browns are bobby wallace and george sisler, who spent the majority of their careers as browns. other guys, like rick ferrell, heinie manush, rube waddell, and goose goslin played for them, but it's safe to say they're in more for their play with other clubs. my question is who is the greatest brown not in the hall and if you HAD to put one guy in who is predominantly a brown, who would it be? you can select one pitcher and one position player- i'd pick urban shocker for pitchers and ken williams for players, it seems quite obvious to me, but does anyone think differently?

[Bill_McCurdy]

...i'd pick urban shocker for pitchers and ken williams for players, it seems quite obvious to me, but does anyone think differently?

Not me. If I had to pick one pitcher and one position player, Urban Shocker and Ken Williams would also be my choices.

[KCGHOST]

Urban and Ken are pretty much the cream of what's left.

[VIBaseball]

Vern Stephens might have had a chance if his career hadn't dropped off so markedly after 1951. Actually, he had his three monster hitting seasons with the Red Sox (1948-50), but one could make a decent argument that he'd wear the Browns hat.

Did he get injured, or did his partying habits catch up with him?

Also, I don't think he was known for his glove.

[Gjm130]

I like Ken Williams, he should have made it.....:(

[dave_heller]

Vern Stephens might have had a chance if his career hadn't dropped off so markedly after 1951. Actually, he had his three monster hitting seasons with the Red Sox (1948-50), but one could make a decent argument that he'd wear the Browns hat.

Did he get injured, or did his partying habits catch up with him?

Also, I don't think he was known for his glove.

His partying caught up with him. He really didn't take care of himself and as you get older, well ...

I believe it was Ellis Clary who said to me Stephens "went out like a light."

[VIBaseball]

With the work you've done, Dave, your opinion is obviously well qualified. But I will also present this from the bio of Vern on SABR's Bioproject site:

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=555&pid=13605

"There are two theories as to his sudden decline. One suggests that he was never able to recover from his knee injury, which disabled him in both 1951 and 1952. Fifty years ago a bad knee could be devastating to an infielder in his early 30s. According to his son, Vernon III, his eyes also started to fail him about this time.

The other theory is that his nightlife finally caught up with him. Although some of his old Browns' teammates marveled at his after-hours activities, Boston roommate Johnny Pesky downplayed his reputation as a partier, suggesting that this was no longer going on while he was in Boston. Before his knee injury in 1951, Stephens was remarkably durable-he did not miss a single game in 1948 or 1949 and missed ten or fewer several other times."

Sounds to me like a mix of all three.

[Steve Meszaros]

Most of you are right on the position player Ken Williams. My god look at he numbers in Browns/Oriole franchise history he has the 7th higest batting avg. .357 in 1923 : #2 career behind Sisler .326 : #1 obp .403#ahead of Frank Robinson: #1 career slugging Percentage: tied for 5th hr in one year 39: #7 career HR 185: #6 career RBI 808. Oriole fans should check him out and be impressed!!!

[Calif_Eagle]

If Harlond Clift, Browns 3rd baseman had posted his career numbers for the New York Yankees rather than the Browns, he would have been a sure fire HOF-er. Although thats a Bill James thought from his historical baseball abstract, I think if anyone checks his numbers they will agree with him, as I do. I also think Shocker & Williams are Great choices too. Ned Garver might have been a HOF-er as a pitcher had he had Yankee type run support also.

[Calif_Eagle]

I took my own advice & re-checked Mr. Clift's career totals. I believe I misquoted Bill James also. I believe he said that Clift was passed over several times an an AL All-star at 3rd for Red Rolfe when he was clearly the superior player. Mr. Rolfe had 4 ASG appearances to only 1 for Mr. Clift. So I wanted to amend my previous post. I believe the Harland Clift probably should have been the AL 3rd baseman in the ASG about 4 more times than he was selected, he is a very fine player & surely deserves to be the Browns All-Time selection at the hot corner. But I think that, unless he was a defensive wizard to rival Brooks Robinson, he does in fact fall a little short of the HOF.

[B-Engels]

I agree that Ken williams should be in the hall of fame. I read somewhere in here that he may of had beef with Ty Cobb. But no one could verify this. I fully beleave this to be true how ever. He is my great grandfather,and though I never knew him I have been told he has the same personallity as my grandfather. He's a very stuberen man and can easaly make anyone mad. He tends to focus on his children. But Ken had other ball players to piss off so it's probly true. :laugh

[The Dude]

Shocker, Stephens, and Williams all belong.

Although I think there would be a lot of negative response around Stephens, as his best power years came in Boston and he played through the war.