best season back then

[Buzzaldrin]

Who had the best all-round hitting season prior to 1900?

1) Hugh Duffy 1894
2) Tip O'Neill 1887
3) Cap Anson, either 1881 or 1886
4) Ross Barnes 1876
5) other

[Joltin' Joe]

Buzz you probably know my answer already.

In terms of dominating over his peers I would say Ross by far. However how strong was that league? I don't think it was that strong...

I am not that impressed with Tip's 1887. Had he done that in the NL, I would be far more impressed.

Cap's '81 is better than his '86. And I will say his '81 is very impressive.

However in the end, I am going to have to stick with my man Duffy. But you already knew that didn't you Buzz? :D

[Buzzaldrin]

Yeah, I knew that. My memory's alright. Duffy was the best looking of the bunch, anyhow. Don't know if I agree with Anson's 1881 as better than 1886. Ok, he hit .399 in a .270 league versus .371 in a .274, but in 1886 he drove in 147 runs in 125 games for a team with no real power (but who had it back then anyhow?)

[Joltin' Joe]

Yeah, I knew that. My memory's alright. Duffy was the best looking of the bunch, anyhow. Don't know if I agree with Anson's 1881 as better than 1886. Ok, he hit .399 in a .270 league versus .371 in a .274, but in 1886 he drove in 147 runs in 125 games for a team with no real power (but who had it back then anyhow?)

The RBI total in '86 is insane. Buzz, I know you like BP's translated stats and they have him for 181 in '86 VS 159 in '81. He was a RBI machine despite not having too much power. I still like his '81 though. He was so heads and shoulders above his peers that year it wasn't even funny. Nobody was close. Not King, not Dunlap, not even one of your favorite, Mr. Brouthers.

I would rank them

1. Duffy
2. Pop's '81
3. Ross
4. Tip
5. Pop's '86

[Baseball Guru]

Where would you guys rank Sam Thompson?

In 1895 he hit .392 with a .430 obp% and hit 18 hr's with 165 rbi's...

In 1894 he hit .407 with a .458 obp% with 13 hr's and 141 rbi's in only 99 games...

Thompson has the top 2 rbi totals pre- 1900...

Just another name to throw into the mix:)

[Joltin' Joe]

Had Buzz made the list bigger, he probably would have included Thompson.

The problem with Thompson's 1894 is that IMO he was only the third best player in the league that year. 1. Duffy 2. Hamilton 3. Thompson. Had he learned to be a little more patient at the plate, I would have ranked him higher.

He might have been arguable the best player in 1895(Jesse & Billy may beg to differ) but I don't think his 1895 is as good as Duffy's 1894.

I will say that he was an RBI machine. Just like Pop. The thing that is puzzling to me is that according to BP translated stats, Pop maintains his ridiculous RBI totals but for some reason Thompson does not.

In comparing of 19th century seasons, I rely quite a bit on BP's translated stats as baseball was so different then that it is almost impossible to compare the seasons. One thing that I don't understand though is that Fred Dunlap's 1884 season drops about the same as similar seaspms from the NL & the AA. I don't see how a stat from the Union Association could be considered close in value to a stat from the NL & AA.

[Buzzaldrin]

Well, there are a lot of seasons that could be up there. Hamilton's 1894 springs most readily to mind, but I didn't include them for a variety of reasons- number one being that I'm quite human (really) and leave things out.

I for one don't really count the UA as a major league, and Dunlap was just plain not that good. You really wanna see the difference in BP translated stats? Look at Charlie Sweeney's 1884, which he split between Providence in the NL and St. Lou in the UA. That's an eye opener.

Did you notice that BP has Gwynn's career higher than Cobb's? And Hamilton's higher than Hornsby, Jackson, Speaker, and Delahanty (but not Boggs, Williams, and Keeler)?

[Baseball Guru]

Sorry not to be on the ball here but can someone explain to me what BP is?

[Buzzaldrin]

Baseball Prospectus- go to www.baseballprospectus.com type in a name, and you'll pull up their career stats (much like baseball-reference.com), scroll down the page and amuse yourself with the translated batting or pitching stats. Translated how, you ask?

this is how they describe the batting ones:

"Converts the player's batting statistics into a context that is the same for everybody. The major characteristics of the translation are: 1) that the translated EQA should equal the original, all-time adjusted EQA (within some margin for error); 2) that all seasons are expanded to a 162 game schedule; 3) that the statistics are adjusted to a season where an average hitter would have, per 650 PA: 589 AB, 153 H, 31 DB, 3 TP, 19 HR, 56 BB, 5 HBP, 113 SO, 10 SB, 5 CS, 79 R and 75 RBI. His rates would be a .260 batting average, .330 onbase average, .420 slugging average, and a .260 EQA with 76 EQR."

You gotta take it all with a grain of salt, but it's a lot of fun to play around with, and you can find some surprising stuff.

[Baseball Guru]

Thanks Buzz for that info:)

[KCGHOST]

I went with Duffy, but it wouldn't have taken much to get me to vote for Tip.

As for BP, those guys are legendary for torturing numbers into saying whatever they think the numbers ought to say.

[Brian McKenna]

hard not to be impressed with a guy who leads his league in:

batting average
on-base percentage
slugging average
OPS
runs
hits
total bases
doubles
triples
home runs
RBI
adjusted OPS+
runs created
extra base hits
power/speed number
at bats per home run
batter runs
adjusted batter runs
total average
total player rating

such as tip o'neill in 1887

[SABR Steve]

I have to go with Barnes. As we all know, he absolutley dominated 1876 offensively, but he was also the guy who revolutionized the art of fielding at second base.

[Buzzaldrin]

hard not to be impressed with a guy who leads his league in:

batting average
on-base percentage
slugging average
OPS
runs
hits
total bases
doubles
triples
home runs
RBI
adjusted OPS+
runs created
extra base hits
power/speed number
at bats per home run
batter runs
adjusted batter runs
total average
total player rating

such as tip o'neill in 1887

Still the only man ever to lead his league in doubles, triples, and homers the same season (Musial missed it by one homer in '48)

[Honus Wagner]

I'll vote for the greatest Amish player of all-time...Levi Meyerle hit .492 in a 1871 26-game season, 130 AB, 2 BB and 1 SO

2nd: the Tipster's 1887 season

[Cyborg]

Let's Compare them:

Year-----Player-------AB----H-----R-----HR-----RBI----Avg.
1876---Ross Barnes---322--138---126----1------59----.429
1881---Cap Anson----343--137----67----1-------82----.399
1886---Cap Anson----504--187---117----10-----147----.371
1887---Tip O'Neill-----517--225---167----14-----123----.435
1894---Hugh Duffy----539--237---160----18-----145----.440

I don't consider Barnes and Anson in '81 full seasons, but Barnes' I would say was better. So:

1.
2.
3.
4. Ross Barnes, 1876
5. Cap Anson, 1881

Duffy's was clearly better than Anson in '86, beating him in every catagory (badly) exept losing to him by 2 RBIs. So:

1. Hugh Duffy, 1894
2.
3.
4. Ross Barnes, 1876
5. Cap Anson, 1881

Tip O'Neill and Anson in '86 is in Tip's favor. He beats him (badly, too) in every catagory exept RBIs. Anson did bat in 24 more runs, but Tip beat him by 38 hits, 50 runs, 8 homers, and by a .064 point margin in average. So my final rankings are

1. Hugh Duffy, 1894
2. Tip O'Neill, 1887
3. Cap Anson, 1886
4. Ross Barnes, 1876
5. Cap Anson, 1881

[ItsOnlyGil]

Great seasons all !
But leading the league in TB, OPS+, OPS, SLG, OBP, BA, RBI, HR, doubles, triples, hits and runs is a dominant season just about impossinle to surpass.