What do the stats tell us about foreign pitchers in MLB?

[Cubano100%]

I am not an Statician and never took a Statistics class in college. If any one has a background in Statistics, you are more than wellcome to provide your input. For instance, how much a large number or small number may affect the results.


For all others Baseball-Fever users, you can also give your opinon about what you think about my findings.


Mean: add up all the values in a set of data and then divide that sum by the number of values in the dataset.

Median: the value in the middle.

Standard deviation: the standard deviation is kind of the "mean of the mean," and often can help you find the story behind the data. To understand this concept, it can help to learn about what statisticians call normal distribution of data.

A normal distribution of data means that most of the examples in a set of data are close to the "average," while relatively few examples tend to one extreme or the other.

A large SD tells you that the data are fairly diverse, while a small SD tells you the data are pretty tightly bunched together. If you'll be doing a lot of work with numbers or scientific research, it will be worth your time to learn a bit about the standard deviation.



http://www.robertniles.com/stats/


Since 1993 when the first Cuban baseball player, Rene Arocha, defected, these are the pitchers and their MLB stats for the following countries.

You may want to check my calculations because I may have made mistakes.

Cuban Pitchers

Player ERA

13 players

René Arocha 4.11
Ariel Prieto 4.85
Osvaldo Fernández 4.93
Liván Hernández 4.11
Rolando Arrojo 4.55
Orlando "Duque" Hernández 4.11
Vladimir Núñez 4.83
Michael Tejera 5.14
Adrián Hernández 6.55
Eddie Oropesa 7.34
Danys Báez 3.69
Hansel Izquierdo 4.55
José Contreras 4.28

Total 63.04
Ave ERA or Mean 4.85
Median 4.55
Standard Deviation 1.03


Japanese Pitchers

17 players

Hideo Nomo 4.21
Mac Suzuki 5.72
Hideki Irabu 5.15
Takashi Kashiwada 4.31
Shigetoshi Hasegawa 3.71
Masato Yoshii 4.62
Tomo Ohka 3.95
Masao Kida 5.83
Kazuhiro Sasaki 3.14
Satoru Komiyama 5.61
Takahito Nomura 8.56
Kazuhisa Ishii 4.44
Mike Nakamura 7.51
Shingo Takatsu 3.38
Kazuhito Tadano 4.47
Akinori Otsuka 2.57
Keiichi Yabu 4.5

Total 81.68
Ave ERA or Mean 4.8
Median 4.47
Standard Deviation 1.52



Venezuelan Pitchers

33 players

Omar Daal 4.55
Carlos Pulido 5.98
Juan Castillo 6.94
Felipe Lira 5.32
Dilson Torres 6.09
Ugueth Urbina 3.45
Edwin Hurtado 6.67
Giovanni Carrara 4.7
Alexander Pacheco 11.12
Edgar Ramos 5.14
Jeremi Gonzalez 4.84
Kelvin Escobar 4.38
Oscar Henriquez 6.06
Freddy Garcia 3.93
Beiker Graterol 15.75
Horacio Estrada 7.5
Orber Moreno 4.44
Carlos Hernandez 4.54
Antonio Armas Jr 4.32
Johan Santana 3.31
Ruben Quevedo 6.15
Darwin Cubillan 6.85
William Martinez 3
Victor Zambrano 4.38
Carlos Zambrano 3.26
Carlos Silva 3.84
Alex Herrera 5.11
Francisco Rodriguez 2.44
Wilfredo Ledezma 5.73
Rosman Garcia 5.94
Rafael Betancourt 3.08
Eduardo Villacis 13.5
Gustavo Chacin 3.65

Total 185.96
Ave ERA or Mean 5.64
Median 4.84
Standard Deviation 2.87

Dominican Pitchers

125 players - 3 players that have not stats = 112 players


Domingo Jean 4.46
Pedro Martínez 2.72
Julian Tavárez 4.33
Salomón Torres 4.48
Miguel Jiménez 5.9
Armando Benítez 2.92
Héctor Carrasco 3.94
José Lima 5.21
José Martínez 6.75
José Mercedes 4.75
Luis Andújar 5.98
Ramón Fermín 13.5
Wilson Heredia 3.41
Ramón Morel 4.98
José Parra 6.09
Carlos Pérez 4.44
Alberto Reyes 3.6
Félix Rodríguez 3.51
Carlos Valdez 5
Félix Heredia 4.42
José Paniagua 4.49
Rafael Quirico 37.8
Nerio Rodríguez 6.32
Amaury Telemaco 4.94
Dario Veras 4.67
Esteban Yan 5.12
Antonio Alfonseca 3.95
Carlos Almanzar 4.82
Manny Aybar 5.11
José Cabrera 4.95
Robinson Checo 7.61
Bartolo Colón 3.94
Nelson Cruz 5.04
Roberto Durán 6.58
Fernando Hernández 40.5
Julio Santana 5.26
Ramón Tatis 6.82
Valerio de los Santos 4.54
Lariel González 0
José Jimenez 4.92
Odalis Pérez 4.07
Rafael Roque 5.36
Jesús Sanchez 5.32
Marino Santana 7.94
Juan Peña 0.69
Guillermo Mota 3.61
Damaso Marte 3.2
Willis Roberts 4.64
Luis Vizcaíno 4.36
Hector Almonte 6.27
Francisco Cordero 3.26
Jesús Peña 5.21
Ramón Ortíz 4.72
Héctor Ramírez 5.4
Domingo Guzmán 19.5
Octavio Dotel 3.63
Geraldo Guzmán 5.04
Yovanny Lara 6.25
Lorenzo Barcelo 4.5
Pascual Coco 6.05
Leo Estrella 4.88
Leslie Brea 12.27
Daniel A. Mota 8.44
José Núñez 4.5
Víctor Santos 4.99
Wascar Serrano 6.56
José Acevedo 5.74
Jesús Colomé 4.7
Joaquin Benoit 5.17
Luis Pineda 4.44
Juan Carlos Cruz 4.36
Benito Báez 13.5
Miguel Asencio 5.14
Jorge Sosa 4.41
Rafael Soriano 3.24
Julio Mateo 3.56
Fernando Rodney 4.52
Duaner Sanchez 4.19
Runelvys Hernández 5
Reynaldo García 11.25
Luis de los Santos
Francis Beltrán 5.87
Ricardo Rodríguez 5.18
Franklyn Germán 4.75
Aquilino López 3.72
Claudio Vargas 4.96
José Valverde 2.71
Julio Mañon 4.13
Rodrigo Rosario 1.13
Edwin Almonte 11.12
Juan Domínguez 4.6
Félix Sánchez 10.8
Luis Martínez 9.92
Jorge de Paula 4
Fraklin Graceski
Félix Díaz 6.75
Daniel Cabrera 4.75
Franklin Francisco 3.33
Anastacio Martínez 8.44
Denny Bautista 7.03
Elizardo Ramírez 6.99
Eddy Rodríguez 4.78
Arnie Muñoz 10.05
Bartolomé Fortunato 3.81
Gregori Aquino 5.27
Roberto Novoa 4.8
Merkin Valdez 27
Yhency Brazoban 4.44
Jairo García 9.35
Jorge Vázquez
Franklin Núñez 7.47
Román Colón 5.09
Jerry Gil 0
Pedro Liriano 6.17
José Capellán 5.7
Francisco Cruceta 9.39

Total 711.15
Ave ERA or Mean 6.35
Median 4.97
Standard Deviation 5.5





Puerto Rican Pitchers

24 players

Angel Miranda 4.46
Bobby Munoz 5.17
Jose Alberro 7.41
Rafael Carmona 4.94
Michael James 3.67
Ricardo Jordan 5.25
Roberto Rivera 4.5
Frankie Rodriguez 5.53
Jose Rosado 4.27
Jose Santiago 4.36
Javier Martinez 4.83
Juan Romero 4.35
Javier Vazquez 4.28
Hector Mercado 4.55
Jose Rodriguez 9
Nelson Figueroa 4.65
Ismael Villegas 13.5
Joel Pineiro 4.11
Dicky Gonzalez 5.02
Pedro Feliciano 4.21
Javier Lopez 6.09
Kiko Calero 2.97
Juan Padilla 4.06
Fernando Cabrera 1.75

Total 122.93
Ave ERA or Mean 5.12
Median 4.6
Standard Deviation 2.25

Mexican Pitchers

26 players

Ismael Valdez 4.09
Juan Acevedo 4.33
Cesar Tavo Alvarez 5.4
Andres Berumen 5.66
Esteban Loiza 4.6
Isidro Marquez 6.75
Antonio Osuna 3.68
Francisco Cordova 3.96
Elmer Dessens 4.4
Jose Silva 5.41
Rigoberto Beltran 4.4
Dennis Reyes 4.8
Ricardo Rincon 3.53
Roberto Ramirez 7.69
Miguel del Toro 4.61
David Cortes 4.55
Luis Rivera 1.23
Daniel Garibay 6.03
Rodrigo Lopez 4.56
Oliver Perez 4.26
Victor Alvarez 7.31
Luis Ayala 2.75
Oscar Villareal 3.47
Edgar Gonzalez 8.58
Juan Cerros 4.85
Jorge de la Rosa 5.12


Total 126.02
Ave ERA or Mean 4.85
Median 4.58
Standard Deviation 1.5

[hellborn]

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to do, but I think that the average should be weighted by innings pitched to be more meaningful. Treating Pedro's Martinez' 2.72 ERA the same as Domingo Guzman's 19.50 ERA in 6 innings pitched doesn't make much sense to me. Adjusting the median for this is a little more difficult for me to conceptualize.

[Brian McKenna]

i'm lost about the point as well - i guess it might have some minimal interest to see the numbers laid out like this but what the hell does their era have to do with what country they were born in?

[Cubano100%]

i'm lost about the point as well - i guess it might have some minimal interest to see the numbers laid out like this but what the hell does their era have to do with what country they were born in?

This is a lot of work. I looked the names and the stats of all MLB pitchers from these countries since 1993. I got a spreadsheet where I sorted the numbers from the smallest to highest. The problem is cutting and pasting the names.

I am trying to compare the stats among players from different countries. Specially, I like to see how Cuban players stats compare to other foreing players.

Because we have disparity among the number of players per country, I like to get the input from a Statiscian.

[Licey Fan]

This is a lot of work. I looked the names and the stats of all MLB pitchers from these countries since 1993. I got a spreadsheet where I sorted the numbers from the smallest to highest. The problem is cutting and pasting the names.

I am trying to compare the stats among players from different countries. Specially, I like to see how Cuban players stats compare to other foreing players.

Because we have disparity among the number of players per country, I like to get the input from a Statiscian.


Try this: Sum all the innings pitched for every pitcher of a group (say dominicans) and calculate their ERA

If you take an average of a pitcher who allowed 1 in 1 inning (9.00 ERA) and a pitcher who allowed 15 runs in 200 innings (0.67 ERA), their average would be 4.84... BUT THEIR COMBINED ERA would be 0.72...

So in this case... 2 plus 2 aint 4... YOU HAVE TO CALCULATE THE ERA BASED IN INNING PITCHED, NOT JUST THE NUMBER

[Bob Hannah]

This is a lot of work. I looked the names and the stats of all MLB pitchers from these countries since 1993. I got a spreadsheet where I sorted the numbers from the smallest to highest. The problem is cutting and pasting the names.

I am trying to compare the stats among players from different countries. Specially, I like to see how Cuban players stats compare to other foreing players.

Because we have disparity among the number of players per country, I like to get the input from a Statiscian.
Hi, Cubano. As a suggestion, why don't you present this to those in the sabermetrics forum? They may be willing to help you in what you are trying to find from the numbers.

[Mattingly]

Cubano, I could move this to the SABR forum, if you'd like this to be done.

As mentioned here, it's not just individuals' pitchers having their ERA being treated equally, then summed up and averaged, but that average would also have to include the total number of innings pitched.

Just as in one hitter who has 500-600 at bats during a season, you've got far more to go on, and if you throw in a bench guy or an NL pitcher who has about 90 ABs or so, then averaging these two out doesn't really seem to represent a fair analysis.

Perhaps you could benefit from an explanation of the facts, since as you'd stated in the opening post, you're not fully up on these stats. Perhaps someone there could be better suited to explain them to you, offering advice, links, term definitions, etc.

[Cubano100%]

Allright people! It is time to get back to baseball. I calculated the different countries ERA. I missed a couple Dominican pitchers so I added them to the list. The lowest team ERAs are as follow:

Venezuelan Pitchers

ERA ER IP

Omar Daal 4.55 606 1198.2
Carlos Pulido 5.98 74 111.1
Juan Castillo 6.94 9 11.2
Felipe Lira 5.32 341 577.1
Dilson Torres 6.09 30 44.1
Ugueth Urbina 3.45 267 697.1
Edwin Hurtado 6.67 107 144.1
Giovanni Carrara 4.7 232 444.2
Alexander Pacheco 11.12 7 5.2
Edgar Ramos 5.14 8 14
Jeremi Gonzalez 4.84 278 516.2
Kelvin Escobar 4.38 543 1117
Oscar Henriquez 6.06 35 52
Freddy Garcia 3.93 623 1427.1
Beiker Graterol 15.75 7 4
Horacio Estrada 7.5 30 36
Orber Moreno 4.44 25 50.2
Carlos Hernandez 4.54 86 170.2
Antonio Armas Jr 4.32 320 666.1
Johan Santana 3.31 315 856
Ruben Quevedo 6.15 223 326.1
Darwin Cubillan 6.85 53 69.2
William Martinez 3 1 3
Victor Zambrano 4.38 322 662
Carlos Zambrano 3.26 276 763
Carlos Silva 3.84 240 562.2
Alex Herrera 5.11 7 12.1
Francisco Rodriguez 2.44 66 243
Wilfredo Ledezma 5.73 119 187
Rosman Garcia 5.94 35 53
Rafael Betancourt 3.08 59 172.1
Eduardo Villacis 13.5 5 3.1
Gustavo Chacin 3.65 88 217

Total 185.96 5437 11413.9
Ave ERA 5.64
Team ERA 4.29


Japanese Pitchers

17 players
ERA ER IP
Hideo Nomo 4.21 923 1972
Mac Suzuki 5.72 296 465.2
Hideki Irabu 5.15 294 514
Takashi Kashiwada 4.31 15 31.1
Shigetoshi Hasegawa 3.71 297 720.1
Masato Yoshii 4.62 389 757.1
Tomo Ohka 3.95 371 846
Masao Kida 5.83 62 95.2
Kazuhiro Sasaki 3.14 78 223.1
Satoru Komiyama 5.61 27 43.1
Takahito Nomura 8.56 13 13.2
Kazuhisa Ishii 4.44 278 564
Mike Nakamura 7.51 32 38.1
Shingo Takatsu 3.38 37 98.2
Kazuhito Tadano 4.47 27 54.1
Akinori Otsuka 2.57 40 140
Keiichi Yabu 4.5 29 58

Total 81.68 3208 6632.5
Ave ERA 4.8
Team ERA 4.35

Mexican Pitchers
ERA ER IP

Ismael Valdez 4.09 830 1827.1
Juan Acevedo 4.33 274 570
Cesar Tavo Alvarez 5.4 35 58.1
Andres Berumen 5.66 30 47.2
Esteban Loaiza 4.6 960 1880
Isidro Marquez 6.75 5 6.2
Antonio Osuna 3.68 200 488.2
Francisco Cordova 3.96 332 753.2
Elmer Dessens 4.4 479 979.2
Jose Silva 5.41 257 427.1
Rigoberto Beltran 4.4 52 106.1
Dennis Reyes 4.8 277 519.2
Ricardo Rincon 3.53 171 436.1
Roberto Ramirez 7.69 47 55
Miguel del Toro 4.61 21 41
David Cortes 4.55 30 59.1
Luis Rivera 1.23 1 7.1
Daniel Garibay 6.03 50 74.2
Rodrigo Lopez 4.56 379 748.1
Oliver Perez 4.26 244 515.2
Victor Alvarez 7.31 13 16
Luis Ayala 2.75 71 232.1
Oscar Villareal 3.47 50 129.2
Edgar Gonzalez 8.58 62 65
Juan Cerros 4.85 7 13
Jorge de la Rosa 5.12 37 65


Total 126.02 4914 10117.7
Ave ERA 4.85
Team ERA 4.37


Cuban Pitchers

Player ERA ER IP
13 players
René Arocha 4.11 151 331
Ariel Prieto 4.85 190 352.1
Osvaldo Fernández 4.93 212 387
Liván Hernández 4.11 891 1950.2
Rolando Arrojo 4.55 354 700
Orlando "Duque" Hernández 4.11 459 1004.2
Vladimir Núñez 4.83 219 408.1
Michael Tejera 5.14 136 238.1
Adrián Hernández 6.55 32 44
Eddie Oropesa 7.34 75 92
Danys Báez 3.69 177 431.2
Hansel Izquierdo 4.55 15 29.2
José Contreras 4.28 212 446

Total 63.04 3123 6413.1
Ave ERA 4.85
Team ERA 4.38


Dominican Pitchers

ERA ER IP

Domingo Jean 4.46 20 40.1
Pedro Martínez 2.72 759 2513
Julian Tavárez 4.33 520 1081.1
Salomón Torres 4.48 309 621.1
Miguel Jiménez 5.9 40 61
Armando Benítez 2.92 222 684
Héctor Carrasco 3.94 304 693.2
José Lima 5.21 898 1550.1
José Martínez 6.75 9 12
José Mercedes 4.75 308 583
Luis Andújar 5.98 82 123.1
Ramón Fermín 13.5 2 1.1
Wilson Heredia 3.41 12 31.2
Ramón Morel 4.98 33 59.2
José Parra 6.09 123 181.2
Carlos Pérez 4.44 406 822.2
Alberto Reyes 3.6 138 345.1
Félix Rodríguez 3.51 217 557
Carlos Valdez 5 10 18
Félix Heredia 4.42 225 458.1
José Paniagua 4.49 178 357
Rafael Quirico 37.8 7 1.2
Nerio Rodríguez 6.32 51 72.2
Amaury Telemaco 4.94 308 561
Dario Veras 4.67 32 61.2
Esteban Yan 5.12 374 658
Antonio Alfonseca 3.95 240 547.1
Carlos Almanzar 4.82 128 239
Manny Aybar 5.11 222 391
José Cabrera 4.95 149 271
Robinson Checo 7.61 31 36.2
Bartolo Colón 3.94 797 1819.2
Nelson Cruz 5.04 195 348.1
Roberto Durán 6.58 19 26
Fernando Hernández 40.5 6 1.1
Julio Santana 5.26 275 470.2
Ramón Tatis 6.82 51 67.1
Valerio de los Santos 4.54 125 248
Lariel González 0 0 1
José Jimenez 4.92 285 521.1
Odalis Pérez 4.07 412 911.2
Rafael Roque 5.36 82 137.2
Jesús Sanchez 5.32 310 524.2
Marino Santana 7.94 10 11.1
Juan Peña 0.69 1 13
Guillermo Mota 3.61 186 464.1
Damaso Marte 3.2 108 304
Willis Roberts 4.64 134 259.2
Luis Vizcaíno 4.36 167 344.2
Hector Almonte 6.27 36 51.2
Francisco Cordero 3.26 133 367.1
Jesús Peña 5.21 27 46.2
Ramón Ortíz 4.72 559 1065
Héctor Ramírez 5.4 18 30
Domingo Guzmán 19.5 13 6
Octavio Dotel 3.63 242 600.1
Geraldo Guzmán 5.04 39 69.2
Yovanny Lara 6.25 4 5.2
Lorenzo Barcelo 4.5 33 66
Pascual Coco 6.05 13 19.1
Leo Estrella 4.88 39 72
Leslie Brea 12.27 15 11
Daniel A. Mota 8.44 5 5.1
José Núñez 4.5 30 60
Víctor Santos 4.99 235 423.2
Wascar Serrano 6.56 34 46.2
José Acevedo 5.74 235 368.1
Jesús Colomé 4.7 131 250.2
Joaquin Benoit 5.17 221 384.2
Luis Pineda 4.44 25 50.2
Juan Carlos Cruz 4.36 149 307.2
Benito Báez 13.5 14 9.1
Miguel Asencio 5.14 98 171.2
Jorge Sosa 4.41 226 461.1
Rafael Soriano 3.24 40 111
Julio Mateo 3.56 100 252.2
Fernando Rodney 4.52 46 91.2
Duaner Sanchez 4.19 81 174
Runelvys Hernández 5 181 325.2
Reynaldo García 11.25 25 20
Luis de los Santos
Francis Beltrán 5.87 40 61.1
Ricardo Rodríguez 5.18 119 206.2
Franklyn Germán 4.75 66 125
Aquilino López 3.72 46 111.1
Claudio Vargas 4.96 201 364.2
José Valverde 2.71 44 146.1
Julio Mañon 4.13 13 28.1
Rodrigo Rosario 1.13 1 8
Edwin Almonte 11.12 14 11.1
Juan Domínguez 4.6 56 109.2
Félix Sánchez 10.8 2 1.2
Luis Martínez 9.92 18 16.1
Jorge de Paula 4 12 27
Fraklin Graceski
Félix Díaz 6.75 37 49.1
Daniel Cabrera 4.75 163 309
Franklin Francisco 3.33 19 51.1
Anastacio Martínez 8.44 10 10.2
Denny Bautista 7.03 51 65.1
Elizardo Ramírez 6.99 29 37.1
Eddy Rodríguez 4.78 23 43.1
Arnie Muñoz 10.05 16 14.1
Bartolomé Fortunato 3.81 11 26
Gregori Aquino 5.27 39 66.2
Roberto Novoa 4.8 35 65.2
Merkin Valdez 27 5 1.2
Yhency Brazoban 4.44 52 105.1
Jairo García 9.35 9 8.2
Jorge Vázquez
Franklin Núñez 7.47 13 15.2
Román Colón 5.09 50 88.1
Jerry Gil 0
Pedro Liriano 6.17 16 23.1
José Capellán 5.7
Francisco Cruceta 9.39
Erwin Santana 4.65 69 133.2
Ambiorix Burgos
Ezequiel Astacio 5.67 51 81
Leo Nunez 7.55 45 53.2
Robinson Tejada
Wandy Rodriguez 5.53 79 128.2
Joel Peralta 3.89 15 34.2
Franquelis Osoria 3.94 13 29.2
Eude Brito 3.68 9 22
Edison Volquez 14.21 20 12.2
Francisco Liriano 5.7 15 23.2


Total 711.15 14093 28604.3
Ave ERA 6.35
Team ERA 4.43


Puerto Rican Pitchers

ERA ER IP
Angel Miranda 4.46 180 363.1
Bobby Munoz 5.17 160 278.1
Jose Alberro 7.41 48 58.1
Rafael Carmona 4.94 85 155
Michael James 3.67 128 314
Ricardo Jordan 5.25 41 70.1
Roberto Rivera 4.5 6 12
Frankie Rodriguez 5.53 402 654
Jose Rosado 4.27 342 720.1
Jose Santiago 4.36 145 299
Javier Martinez 4.83 22 41
Juan Romero 4.35 197 407.2
Javier Vazquez 4.28 782 1643
Hector Mercado 4.55 63 124.2
Jose Rodriguez 9 8 8
Nelson Figueroa 4.65 135 261.1
Ismael Villegas 13.5 4 2.2
Joel Pineiro 4.11 379 830.1
Dicky Gonzalez 5.02 37 66.1
Pedro Feliciano 4.21 34 72.2
Javier Lopez 6.09 78 115.1
Kiko Calero 2.97 46 139.1
Juan Padilla 4.06 28 62
Fernando Cabrera 1.75 7 36

Total 122.93 3357 6730.8
Ave ERA 5.12
Team ERA 4.49

[Licey Fan]

Allright people! It is time to get back to baseball. I calculated the different countries ERA. I missed a couple Dominican pitchers so I added them to the list. The lowest team ERAs are as follow:

Venezuelan Pitchers
Ave ERA 5.64
Team ERA 4.29[/B]


Japanese Pitchers

Ave ERA 4.8
Team ERA 4.35[/B]


Mexican Pitchers
Ave ERA 4.85
Team ERA 4.37


Cuban Pitchers

Ave ERA 4.85
Team ERA 4.38[/B]


Dominican Pitchers

Ave ERA 6.35
Team ERA 4.43 [/B]


Puerto Rican Pitchers

Ave ERA 5.12
Team ERA 4.49[/B]

OK, it's easier to read this way... Now make your point ;)

If you were going to say that venezuela has the best pitching per country,that's definetly true... And that's why the team I fear the most, and I think is vastly underrated for the WBC is Venezuela... They have a killer staff!!!

[Mattingly]

OK, it's easier to read this way... Now make your point ;)

If you were going to say that venezuela has the best pitching per country,that's definetly true... And that's why the team I fear the most, and I think is vastly underrated for the WBC is Venezuela... They have a killer staff!!!
I'm curious, how do you evaluate pitchers if the capabilities of the hitters haven't been asserted? I'm not saying we run through every single offensive stat there is, but unless the Venezuelan league pitchers have faced others, and most notably MLB sluggers, I'm not sure what to go on.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone, but if you have excellent pitchers and excellent hitters, you could come up with identical stats as so-so pitchers and so-so hitters. To me, in order to establish one, you'd have to make them face the same type of hitters over a period of time. Otherwise, who knows where the strength or weakness may lie?

[Cubano100%]

OK, it's easier to read this way... Now make your point ;)

If you were going to say that venezuela has the best pitching per country,that's definetly true... And that's why the team I fear the most, and I think is vastly underrated for the WBC is Venezuela... They have a killer staff!!!


No, Licey. You know I am dissapointed with some American journalists that trash Cuban players without digging into the facts. I hope some journalists read some of my posts. I was just trying to compare them to other countries. I always thought they have done remarkable well taking into consideration that some came old and all the extra stuff they had to deal with.

Stay tune everybody for my next little project. I am going to find the Cuban stats for every defector. I am sure I will find out that most of them were not worth a dime in Cuba nor in the USA.

Always remember, the best Cuban talent is still in the island. Kendry Morales, Yuniesky Betancourt, Alain Soler, Juan Miranda and Hassan Pena have talent and youth. Therefore, they are going to do well.

If Cuba is allowed to come, the death bracket is the one with the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Puerto Rico and Cuba.

[Mattingly]

No, Licey. You know I am dissapointed with some American journalists that trash Cuban players without digging into the facts. I hope some journalists read some of my posts. I was just trying to compare them to other countries. I always thought they have done remarkable well taking into consideration that some come old and all the extra stuff they have to deal with.

Stay tune everybody for my next little project. I am going to find the Cuban stats for every defector. I am sure I will find out that most of them were not worth a dime in Cuba nor in the USA.

Always remember, the best Cuban talent is still in the island. Kendry Morales, Yuniesky Betancourt, Alain Soler, Juan Miranda and Hassan Pena have talent and youth. Therefore, they are going to do well.

If Cuba is allowed to come, the death bracket is the one with the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Puerto Rico and Cuba.
Were these stats compared exclusively against players for their same country? Or were they in mixed competition? I presume the former.

How do you say that someone's a better pitcher if, like in my last post, the capabilities of the hitters aren't established there?

[Cubano100%]

Were these stats compared exclusively against players for their same country? Or were they in mixed competition? I presume the former.

How do you say that someone's a better pitcher if, like in my last post, the capabilities of the hitters aren't established there?


These are major league pitchers and their MLB stats. I collected their MLB stats and ran the calculations.

[jalbright]

This is a lot of work. I looked the names and the stats of all MLB pitchers from these countries since 1993. I got a spreadsheet where I sorted the numbers from the smallest to highest. The problem is cutting and pasting the names.

I am trying to compare the stats among players from different countries. Specially, I like to see how Cuban players stats compare to other foreing players.

Because we have disparity among the number of players per country, I like to get the input from a Statiscian.


There's no question this is a lot of work, but presented this way, I can't see that this data tells us much at all, especially about Cuba. There are more guys from the Dominican who were good enough to get a shot in the majors. Of course, the Cubans haven't exactly been granted the access to the majors the Dominicans have. So, that fact doesn't tell us much. But comparing 13 or 14 Cubans to what, 50 Dominicans means even less. There's no showing that the Cubans who had the chance are a representative sample. Even if we exclude the Cubans and their unique situation, all I might be able to draw from this data is basically how many pitchers each country has provided who are good enough to have met certain criteria. Making the majors is one such criteria. Another might be those who were good enough to stick around a few years (say 120 games in relief or 500 IP, or some other criteria). If you want to try to refine the issue of skill, you might try to add ERA as a criteria (an ERA under 4.00 in at least 500 IP, for example).

This data could be related back to how they performed in leagues at home, but that would require more data. If you could do that, it would at least help us evaluate the quality of play in those leagues back home.

I wish I could be more encouraging, but that's how I see it.\

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

I agree, but at a minimum, it does sort of refute the popular perception that Cubans, and particularly Cuban pitchers, have been a bust. The media was down on Contreras after 3 starts, while guys like Pavano get a free pass. The bottom line is, the combined contracts given to just Hideki Irabu and Kaz Matsui exceed those given to ALL 70-PLUS CUBAN DEFECTORS not named Jose Contreras. You would not know this, however, from the various slants in the MLB media.

[Cubano100%]

There's no question this is a lot of work, but presented this way, I can't see that this data tells us much at all, especially about Cuba. There are more guys from the Dominican who were good enough to get a shot in the majors. Of course, the Cubans haven't exactly been granted the access to the majors the Dominicans have. So, that fact doesn't tell us much. But comparing 13 or 14 Cubans to what, 50 Dominicans means even less. There's no showing that the Cubans who had the chance are a representative sample. Even if we exclude the Cubans and their unique situation, all I might be able to draw from this data is basically how many pitchers each country has provided who are good enough to have met certain criteria. Making the majors is one such criteria. Another might be those who were good enough to stick around a few years (say 120 games in relief or 500 IP, or some other criteria). If you want to try to refine the issue of skill, you might try to add ERA as a criteria (an ERA under 4.00 in at least 500 IP, for example).

This data could be related back to how they performed in leagues at home, but that would require more data. If you could do that, it would at least help us evaluate the quality of play in those leagues back home.

I wish I could be more encouraging, but that's how I see it.\

Jim Albright

I know where you coming from, but that is a lot of work. If I refine my criteria to 500 IP, Cuba will only have 3 pitchers. Japan will only have 5 pitchers.
As for trying to convert their Cuban stats into MLB stats is not an easy nor exact proposition. I would prefer MLB performances only though I am open to the possibility of converting those stats with some help. I do not know where to get serie by serie stats for the Cuban National series. I only can get lifetime stats on Cuban players.

As I said, I just wanted to show the Baseball-Fever community that the media rarely tells you a complete picture when writing about Cuban defectors.


I will get the Cuban stats for all defectors. I am sure 3/4 of them were not top players back home. People should not expect bad players from Cuba to make it to the Major Leagues. The same thing can be said about bad Japanese, Dominican, Mexican and other players.

[Licey Fan]

I know where you coming from, but that is a lot of work. If I refine my criteria to 500 IP, Cuba will only have 3 pitchers. Japan will only have 5 pitchers.
As for trying to convert their Cuban stats into MLB stats is not an easy nor exact proposition. I would prefer MLB performances only though I am open to the possibility of converting those stats with some help. I do not know where to get serie by serie stats for the Cuban National series. I only can get lifetime stats on Cuban players.

As I said, I just wanted to show the Baseball-Fever community that the media rarely tells you a complete picture when writing about Cuban defectors.


I will get the Cuban stats for all defectors. I am sure 3/4 of them were not top players back home. People should not expect bad players from Cuba to make it to the Major Leagues. The same thing can be said about bad Japanese, Dominican, Mexican and other players.


This is getting interesting, but it's a lot of work... Let's see how it works out... KEEP IT UP!!

[jalbright]

If you want to drop the standard to 100 IP, that's OK. I don't know that going any lower than that means anything more than getting a shot at the majors does. My point being, there's got to be some apples to apples type comparisons to mean anything. The fact there have been 13 Cuban pitchers to make it to the majors in recent years certainly does mean there's some quality in Cuba, which I think most people have at least suspected.

The idea that the press has downplayed Cuban players is probably correct, but I think it is a backlash to the fact that many of these guys were seriously hyped and then couldn't come close to measuring up to the hype. After this happened several times, the boys in the press box let their cynicism come out.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

I agree but, frankly, it only reflects stupidity on the part of reporters. Anyone with internet access could have independently verified the stats/backgrounds of just about every defector since El Duque, so any media member who believed the hype about Andy Morales and has now made it his life's mission to disparage Cuban defectors is a lazy fool (and from the number of such stories/comments I've seen, there are a lot of lazy fools covering MLB).

[Cubano100%]

I want to get your opinion on the below.


Players from the USA, Puerto Rico and Canada are subject to the baseball Draft. I am not sure about players from Canada but I believe they have to go through the Draft too.

Foreing players, on the other hand, are free agents. I think this is unfair to Americans, Puerto Ricans and Canadians. The Baseball Union and baseball agents do not want to see foreing players go through the draft because foreing players drive salaries up. This benefits players that go through the draft too. In my opinion, the right thing to do is either to have all players go through the Draft or all players should be free agents.

But here come the Cubans again. What are they?

If your anwser is Cubans are free agents your anwser is wrong. Once they defect, they are in a limbo. MLB does not grant them free agency automatically. I believe and someone here can correct me that MLB requires them to have a passport or residency in a foreing country. The problem is that the Cuban government takes their passport away from Cuban team members once they go through customs. This happens not only when the Cuban team travels to the USA but also to any other country. So they do not have a passport after defecting. MLB does not grant them free agent status even though they are not Americans, Puerto Ricans or Canadians.

What choices does a Cuban baseball defector has?

1. To go to a third country to obtain citizenship of that country. This is a lenghthy proccess. Many governments are sympathetic of Castro and are not friendly to Cubans seeking legal status.

2. Come to the USA and become a free agent. I say this because this is a controversial topic. Even though Cuban defectors are not Americans, MLB officials and owners want them to go through the draft. I believe even when they somehow manage to have a Cuban passport, they can not become free agents because they live in the USA.
The USA government does not give them a passport until they spend 5 years living in America.
So the bottom line is that they are not either Cubans nor Americans but MLB wants them to enter the draft.
For the record, Cuban defector Rolando Viera sued MLB so he could become a free agent in the USA and lost his case. Viera was not worth a dime in Cuba and signed with the Red Sox. I think he is out of baseball now.

3. Enter the Baseball Draft. This is what MLB teams want. They want to pay cheap money to Cuban defectors. Imagine a 32 years old Jose Contrears in the draft or 32-36 years old El Duke in the draft. At these age, how many contract would they get in their life spam. If they are selected in the first rounds, they become millioners. But if they are selected in the latter rounds, they get nothing. Most of the times players from the draft are signed for 3 or 4 years and then arbitration kicks in. So for El Duke and Contreras, the draft is not their best choice.

I am sure ther are some Baseball-Fever users that knows more about how free agency works. So all your opinions are wellcome.

[Agente Libre]

I don't like the draft either but I'm not sure about some of your conclusions.

Viera actually had decent statistics in Cuba and got good reviews from the minor league managers and coaches who saw him. Boston released him kind of fast (less than 2 years) and he apparently was not very dedicated to training, as one article said he showed up to major league spring training about 20 pounds overweight. He had some problems with indy and foreign teams, so it looks like he just had a bad attitude.

Also, Viera didn't lose his case. He lost an initial ruling and then fired his lawyer and agent because he didn't want to pay them. (See ESPN.com stories from 2001 to 2003.)

[Cubano100%]

I don't like the draft either but I'm not sure about some of your conclusions.

Viera actually had decent statistics in Cuba and got good reviews from the minor league managers and coaches who saw him. Boston released him kind of fast (less than 2 years) and he apparently was not very dedicated to training, as one article said he showed up to major league spring training about 20 pounds overweight. He had some problems with indy and foreign teams, so it looks like he just had a bad attitude.

Also, Viera didn't lose his case. He lost an initial ruling and then fired his lawyer and agent because he didn't want to pay them. (See ESPN.com stories from 2001 to 2003.)

What do you mean by indy and foreing teams?

[Agente Libre]

Viera signed with -- and was quickly released from -- at least four different independent league and foreign (Mexico, Nicaragua) teams since being released by Boston.

[Cubano100%]

Viera actually had decent statistics in Cuba and got good reviews from the minor league managers and coaches who saw him. Boston released him kind of fast (less than 2 years) and he apparently was not very dedicated to training, as one article said he showed up to major league spring training about 20 pounds overweight. He had some problems with indy and foreign teams, so it looks like he just had a bad attitude.



Rolando Viera's stats tells you he was not top of the line in Cuba. 318 innings in 6 seasons means he was not used to much. Maybe if he had a different attitude he would have reach the majors, but he would not stayed for long. He barely tops 90 miles per hour, right?

Series W L JS INN AVE PCL SO BB

6 22 19 2 318 264 3.42 200 131

[Agente Libre]

He was a left-handed reliever who struck out 200 in 264 innings; guys like that don't grow on trees. He was a prospect coming out of Cuba but had a bad attitude/work ethic. Not much different than a lot of draft picks.