Hitting Instruction for Young Players [Archive]

jbooth

01-04-2006, 03:39 PM

Hi guys,

I have been following the hitting thread and decided to start another thread with a different twist.
The question: Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older?

Looking at some of the graphics supplied on the hitting thread reminds me that we in baseball seemed to have moved away from a hitting the ball down mentality to a hit it long mentality. Essentially a swing with a downward moving plane versus one that swings off parallel at 20-45 degrees.

I have had this question raised many times in the clinics I run and have always advocated an inside swing, hitting down on the ball. I feel the homerun kings should be developed later.

Any thoughts?

You're under the misconception that not swinging down, means swing for the fences. Why would you want to swing down? You either miss the ball, hit a grounder, or pop up.

Pitchers want you to hit the ball on the ground, so why would you accomodate them?

The swing I teach doesn't teach you to try to hit the ball over the fence, it allows you the best chance to hit the ball, and hit it hard, and if you have enough strength, a ball hit well might go out. I teach the swing that Barry Bonds uses and he hits grounders, line drives and pop ups more often than he hits home runs. Why do you think teaching his swing is incorrect? He doesn't swing down.

Ted Williams said that he tried to hit every ball in the air, yet he still hit at least half of his batted balls on the ground.

Swinging down almost guarantees failure, swinging like all the guys I showed in the photos I posted, allows you to hit the ball consistently and hit it hard, but it doesn't mean it always goes on a HR trajectory.

jbooth

01-04-2006, 03:44 PM

Guess before I post anything I should check out the other thread. But since I'm being lazy I'll go ahead. One of the coaches at the local high school put on a clinic for 7-13 year olds a few weeks ago and used an analogy that was great. The station was set up with the ball on a hitting T. There was a second T about 1.5 feet behind the T with ball and the second T was elevated higher so that the kids had to swing at a downward angle. He used the analogy of landing a plane, which with small kids was something they could relate to. I thought it would be neat to attach some kind of toy air plane to the end of a dow rod and the kids could get a good visual representation as to what the swing should look like.

That almost guarantees failure. That is the worst dang drill in baseball. Nobody in pro ball swings like that. That is the Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens type of swing that guarantees a low batting average and no HR's.

hiddengem

01-04-2006, 04:18 PM

jbooth

01-04-2006, 04:49 PM

I agree. But what do you do for a kid that has a serious loop in his swing and his hands drop befor he swings?\

Tell him to keep his hands near his armpit and just turn his shoulders to move the bat. Tilt the spine so the head is toward the plate and turn the shoulders. The back shoulder will move down as you rotate, and the hands will move in unison with the shoulder. You have to get kids to understand that they don't swing the bat with their arms. Yes, the arms and hands are involved, but the swing has to START with the hips and shoulders. The hands must NOT be the first thing to move.

As Yogi Berra supposedly said;

a rookie says to Yogi,

"Yogi I keep dropping my hands when I swing. What should I do?"

Yogi replied; "Stop dropping your hands when you swing."

hiddengem

01-04-2006, 06:44 PM

\

Tell him to keep his hands near his armpit and just turn his shoulders to move the bat. Tilt the spine so the head is toward the plate and turn the shoulders. The back shoulder will move down as you rotate, and the hands will move in unison with the shoulder. You have to get kids to understand that they don't swing the bat with their arms. Yes, the arms and hands are involved, but the swing has to START with the hips and shoulders. The hands must NOT be the first thing to move.

As Yogi Berra supposedly said;

a rookie says to Yogi,

"Yogi I keep dropping my hands when I swing. What should I do?"

Yogi replied; "Stop dropping your hands when you swing."

Makes sense.

hit-it-hard

01-04-2006, 11:44 PM

I'd absolutely recommend teaching the same swing at any age. The instructional method will differ but the same basic swing should be taught, IMO. Emphasis on the items Jim listed, plus intent (hit the ball hard) as well as making sure you watch mechanics closely for some of the bigger common problems which occur - the looping swing plane, too much arm/hand action, bat drag, hip slide.

Jake, why you would want to teach young kids to swing differently than older ones? Is there some benefit you can see to doing that?

hit-it-hard

01-04-2006, 11:53 PM

I think Jim's points were very good. Only thing I'd add is a (hopefully) clarifying point to this comment (not sure if he agrees or not):

The back shoulder will move down as you rotate, and the hands will move in unison with the shoulder.

I'd say the rear shoulder will move downward as a side-effect of rotating while tilted over the plate... there is no active shoulder drop. So on a high pitch, little or no shoulder drop occurs at all because there is little or no tilt. Not sure if this is any clearer... but hoping to avoid the teeter-totter of dropping the rear shoulder and incorrect swing plane for a high pitch.

HG has a good point about kids and their looping swings. See it a lot. Personally I've found the thing that works the best is an explanation/demonstration to them showing that there is no looping/uppercutting in a good swing. Depending on their age you have to figure out how to explain it - might be using a stick across the chest as they turn, might be walking through video of a good hitter for a kid that's a little younger, something like the animated swing plane posted in the other swing thread, etc. Somehow they have to get a true mental image of what their swing is really supposed to look like. (Important in the other areas as well... staying connected, the contact point, etc.) One thing that usually indicates to me that younger kids "understand" what they need to do is that they can show you the the proper motion at a slow speed.

Ursa Major

01-05-2006, 01:50 AM

Jake, IMHO, one of the most important things that you can do for young hitters is to increase the time that the bat is in the same path that the ball is traveling through, so if the kid's timing is off, he'll still make some contact. A pitched ball will descend when it comes to the plate at a 15 to 25 degree downward angle, depending on pitch speed. If the kid swings down, he either meets the pitch at the exact spot where the bat/ball trajectories meet, or he misses it. If he swings slightly up, he still has a good sized zone where even a mistimed swing will "get good wood".

With a slight uppercut, a topped ball will at least get a lot of topspin and maybe skip past the infielders or zip over their heads and then die in front of the outfielders, like a good Bjorn Borg topspin netskimming forehand. If he gets under it, maybe all that backspin will give the ball enough carry to cause some trouble. On the other hand, it drives me nuts to see some kids (and my son sometime has been one of 'em) swing down on the ball and meet it on the bat's sweet spot but just under the center of the ball. The hit looks nice, but the shortstop backs up five steps and hauls in the little looper.

Here's an example from my son's team last spring, during the playoffs. The 11 year old hitter hadn't had an extra base hit all year. On a decent fastball high/inside but a strike -- and you can track its slightly downward path by following the yellow arrow -- the boy turned on it and got just a hair under it. If he'd been swinging downward with that kind of contact, he would have hit a soft liner to shortop. But, by matching the ball's incoming path, his trajectory and the backspin put the ball in the eggplant beyond the left field wall.
http://s95294420.onlinehome.us/userfiles/SPHomer0611PiratesSm.gif

I think coaches advocating downswings are trying to deal with kids up uppercut and pull their heads off the ball. I say, deal with that problem, not the swing itself.

One reason that kids drop their hands is in fact out of a desire to start the swing in a level path to make sure they'll sweep through the ball at some point. Unfortunately, the get no power and, relying on their hands, can't get up to a high strike and can't get around on a fast pitch. There are a zillion drills to reinforce their need to go directly from their launch position toward the ball. One I like (as does Ripken, I recently read) is to force kids to practice their swing using just their bottom hand. (They can rest the bat handle on their upper arm's bicep, if need be.) If they hitch (i.e., drop their hands) or otherwise rely on their hands too much, they'll barely get the bat around and the side of their bottom hand will hurt. But, if they use their hips, middle and shoulder to start the swing, at the end of the swing the bat will take off on it's own with little or no need for the bottom hand to do anything. JBooth demonstrates the principle with this (http://firstpickclub.com/video/boxexp3.mpg) little gizmo.

It's good to see JBooth pull himself out of his rocker to address this. I swear, Jim can be in the woods forty miles from a computer, but by gum if someone posts a hitting idea that sounds remotely like a Lau/Hudgens technique, Jim'll detect it like Lassie sniffing out a forest fire and come out to wrestle the idea to the ground. He's been very successful with young hitters and knows his shi... er ... stuff.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 08:32 AM

Jake, why you would want to teach young kids to swing differently than older ones? Is there some benefit you can see to doing that?

Younger kids are being taught the basics of the swing, i.e. proper grip, stance, load, head position, bat angle, etc. Older kids are typically taught the finer points of the swing. Building blocks. It would be fruitless to film and analyze a player at the T-ball level while it's a pretty common practice at the high school level.

I may have not stated my case well. Downward swing may be the wrong choice of words. I worked this past year with several batting instructors, one was Andy Walker (Former hitting instructor for the New Jersey Jackels) the other Chip Plante (14 years in college ball and now coaches for the Worcester Tornadoes -Can Am League - similar to AA).
We spent a great deal of time getting the bat to the hit zone without taking an outside route. A major problem we have had with young kids is dropping the back shoulder extending the arms allowing the bat to take a long outside swipe at the ball. Many of the kids we had at the clinic felt this was ok as this was the way "Manny swings." We all know its not.

We teach getting the bat down, through and up. A key teaching point used with young batters is driving the knob of the bat down to keep the swing compact, thus avoiding the long outside route. If you were to put a bat at your belly button and stand facing a fence or screen and then set up to swing, the batter would be able to swing without hitting the fence. I have a clip of this but it's too big for this format. send me an email and I'll attach.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 08:35 AM

Yes, the arms and hands are involved, but the swing has to START with the hips and shoulders. The hands must NOT be the first thing to move.

Hi JB - I agree with the above.

jbooth

01-05-2006, 01:28 PM

We teach getting the bat down, through and up.

You need to explain this one. It defies the laws of physics unless I don't understand what you mean.

A key teaching point used with young batters is driving the knob of the bat down to keep the swing compact, thus avoiding the long outside route.

Drive the knob down to where? And how? And why?

The knob should move from back shoulder to front shoulder on a line that is parallel to the tilt angle of the shoulders.

wogdoggy

01-05-2006, 03:07 PM

Guys check out this clip.Is it me or does Barry drop his hands before anything happens? the lattter part of the vid shows it a little better

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds12.mpeg

tadlock11

01-05-2006, 03:17 PM

That almost guarantees failure. That is the worst dang drill in baseball. Nobody in pro ball swings like that. That is the Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens type of swing that guarantees a low batting average and no HR's.
Maybe I didn't go into enough detail but definately don't know about Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens (please do inform me!)
The second T is elevated just slightly above where the ball is placed. This, I believe, is to prevent the hitter from looping his swing (extending arms). The airplane analogy was to land the plane (the back elbow staying in "V"), hit the ball where it's pitched and follow through.
After looking through your diagram on the other thread, this looks very much like what the coach was trying to teach.
After a few years of being on multiple baseball/hitting forums, I've realized the biggest problem is terminology. I've seen others and myself included, know what I'm trying to say but it comes across different in writing. A great advantage is the graphics and diagrams that some coaches have the talent to design. Those are great and I'm more of a show me don't tell me type person anyhow.
Thanks for the input.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 03:27 PM

You need to explain this one. It defies the laws of physics unless I don't understand what you mean.
Drive the knob down to where? And how? And why?
The knob should move from back shoulder to front shoulder on a line that is parallel to the tilt angle of the shoulders.

Hi JB I'll send you a clip we can beat up.

I typed out a page and it was painfully obvious to me I am unable to explain without showing. Check your email for the clips.

Jake Patterson

01-05-2006, 03:41 PM

Maybe I didn't go into enough detail but definately don't know about Charlie Lau/Dave Hudgens (please do inform me!)

Don't forget Walt Hriniak!!:noidea

tadlock11

01-05-2006, 03:42 PM

Guys check out this clip.Is it me or does Barry drop his hands before anything happens? the lattter part of the vid shows it a little better

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Bonds12.mpeg

In the first clip, the camera is moving up while he is in his loading phase. If I'm not mistaken, when people talk about hitters dropping their hands, it is after they have completed the loading phase and start their actual swing.
Again this is just me rambling but what I think happens (in my case anyways) is a hitter will be getting in a rythm, then when they load - the hands drop a little.

JB-
I get stuck on things and in this case saying that the second T drill was the worst in baseball. Watching this video (the first angle) I was imagining the T there and to me it seems it would work well. Especially for teaching kids a proper swing. Your thoughts.

jbooth

01-05-2006, 08:50 PM

JB-
I get stuck on things and in this case saying that the second T drill was the worst in baseball. Watching this video (the first angle) I was imagining the T there and to me it seems it would work well. Especially for teaching kids a proper swing. Your thoughts.

Look at the nine MLB hitters below. Do you think any of their swings have the bat going down at the ball?

I modified the picture of Bonds. The yellow lines are your two tees. The circle is the arc of his swing and the red line is the path the bathead is on, toward the ball. His bat would cut through the first tee, not go over it.

None of these swings take the path you want to create by putting a higher tee on the backside of the impact point. The bathead goes UP into the ball, not down through it.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hitters/mlb9b.jpg

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 09:53 AM

[QUOTE=jbooth]Look at the nine MLB hitters below. Do you think any of their swings have the bat going down at the ball?

I modified the picture of Bonds. The yellow lines are your two tees. The circle is the arc of his swing and the red line is the path the bathead is on, toward the ball. His bat would cut through the first tee, not go over it.

None of these swings take the path you want to create by putting a higher tee on the backside of the impact point. The bathead goes UP into the ball, not down through it.

If you look at the plane the head of the bat takes, doesn't it go down first? It starts well up above the head of the batter and finishes in the hitting zone somewhere around the belt (depending upon the pitch).

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 10:08 AM

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 10:23 AM

jbooth

01-06-2006, 10:51 AM

Another observation - on these pitchers you can see the knob of the bat takes a slightly downward treck. and the ball is hit out in front of the hitting zone forcing the hands through the hitting zone. "Down - Through - and Up"

4728

Jake, you are so far off in your observations that it is hard to say where to start. The bat and hands do not take the path that your yellow lines marked.

Watch a swing in slow motion and see how everything moves.

I'm busy right now, but I'll put a movie clip and some stills together to show you where you are going wrong.

jbooth

01-06-2006, 10:53 AM

If you look at the plane the head of the bat takes, doesn't it go down first? It starts well up above the head of the batter and finishes in the hitting zone somewhere around the belt (depending upon the pitch)
4727[QUOTE=Jake Patterson

The bat doesn't move on the yellow lines as you have marked. I'll show you the real path in another post.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 12:06 PM

If you look at the plane the head of the bat takes, doesn't it go down first? It starts well up above the head of the batter and finishes in the hitting zone somewhere around the belt (depending upon the pitch)

Hate to gang up on you guy, but the yellow lines you have inserted aren't what actually a happened in these swings. This clip shows what i believe happened in these swings.

wogdoggy

01-06-2006, 12:19 PM

although i agree with booth the barry pic he drew in shows an absolute circle,even though the same theory is applied and booth is correct its not that dramatic.

tadlock11

01-06-2006, 02:37 PM

After watching many videos of Bonds and other MLB hitters on a frame by frame basis, I think again we have a mix up in what we are trying to say. Let's assume the ball is pitched belt high right down the pipe. The bat head will first move in a downward arc. From there is where we are getting all tied up. Wouldn't bat speed on the pitch depend on what part of the arc of the swing that contact is made? Let's say in the picture that Bonds got around on it correctly, the bat head would be on a collision course with the ball. Whereas if he were a little late, he may have made contact just as the bat was planing off. I had been taught that from contact to extension is the "level" part of the swing (not necessarily parallel with the ground, rather matching the angle of the ball or close to). Then the follow through will complete the arc back in an upward stroke as the wrists roll.
I was also wrong in my first post stating the back T was 1.5' behind the first. It may have been that way for 7 yr olds. After looking at the modified picture and grabbing my tape measure, I would say for an average sized adult, the second T would be around 2.5' back for this drill. One thing that I do want to emphasize is that I am NOT saying to continue the bat motion down, that ends just prior to contact. Now I'm hoping that can clear up some of my ill comm skills. :cool:

tadlock11

01-06-2006, 02:50 PM

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4737&stc=1&d=1136584206

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 03:01 PM

http://www.baseball-fever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4737&stc=1&d=1136584206

Do you believe that if you did your T drill with chipper in this swing that he would not hit the back T? Is this what you are picturing with your drill?

tadlock11

01-06-2006, 03:24 PM

I don't think he would - but that's the way I'm seeing it. Perhaps when I can add the Tee to the pic, it would help me to put it out there as to what I'm trying to get across.
This thread was intended for discussion on teaching children the same as adults. The drill I had mentioned would not be ideal for adults (I agree) as there are far too many different type of pitches and locations to deal with. This drill is for the purpose of keeping them from having a complete uppercut swing / as opposed to \_/
-I would say 7-9 year olds that are in machine-pitch ball could benefit from this drill as most of the pitches they see are in one location.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 04:33 PM

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 05:01 PM

Hate to gang up on you guy, but the yellow lines you have inserted aren't what actually a happened in these swings.

Obviously, it swings in an arc. I just can't draw a circle or arc on the computer, but the plane of the swing is what I am speaking of.

This clip shows what i believe happened in these swings.

I'll try one more time then I'll throw in the towel. The diagram you show still demonstrates a downward moving plane (understanding it's done in an arc and is not linear). The yellow line is moving downward at an angle (off parallell to the ground) at approximately twenty-five to thirty degrees. The same is true with the bat after it goes through the hitting zone. This is the "down" and "up" I speak of. I'll give up on "through." It may just be symantics.

I do not see anything wrong with the diagram.

4745

I'd like to go back and re-ask the original question. Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older? Many coaches I have run across feel there is a definative stepping stone approach.

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 07:25 PM

Found the following at: http://www.webball.com/skill/doubletee.html

Shows double tee drills.
4748

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 08:31 PM

Obviously, it swings in an arc. I just can't draw a circle or arc on the computer, but the plane of the swing is what I am speaking of.

I'll try one more time then I'll throw in the towel. The diagram you show still demonstrates a downward moving plane (understanding it's done in an arc and is not linear). The yellow line is moving downward at an angle (off parallell to the ground) at approximately twenty-five to thirty degrees. The same is true with the bat after it goes through the hitting zone. This is the "down" and "up" I speak of. I'll give up on "through." It may just be symantics.

I do not see anything wrong with the diagram.

4745

I'd like to go back and re-ask the original question. Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older? Many coaches I have run across feel there is a definative stepping stone approach.

I teach all my kids the same basic swing. I might use different words or ways of getting things across to a younger kid but its still making the same point. All kids are different, some are far more advanced than others, some need to learn how to hold a bat and what the correct hitting posture feels and looks like. Just depends.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 08:32 PM

Found the following at: http://www.webball.com/skill/doubletee.html

Shows double tee drills.
4748

I'm sorry Jake, if you think that the swing this guy is taking on the "post drill" is the same as chipper, we might as well throw in the towell.

Jake Patterson

01-06-2006, 09:08 PM

I'm sorry Jake, if you think that the swing this guy is taking on the "post drill" is the same as chipper, we might as well throw in the towell.

No I don't. I was searching for a double tee I saw used at America's Game in Waterford CT and found that. Not real sure what webball is trying to show.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 09:32 PM

No I don't. I was searching for a double tee I saw used at America's Game in Waterford CT and found that. Not real sure what webball is trying to show.

Ok, I wasn't if you were showing us that Double Tee because you like it or not.

bpvipers

01-06-2006, 10:32 PM

Ok, so my understanding of how Chippers bat path happened in this swing is in YELLOW. You can see that having a T higher in the back than in the front causes a bad arc in the swing and a "chop" if you will. Understand?

The tee is placed on the back outside corner of the plate. Chippers bat path will not cause him to "chop" the ball. The tee is used to prevent "casting" were the hands or elbow comes out first, instead of staying inside the ball.

hiddengem

01-06-2006, 11:17 PM

The tee is placed on the back outside corner of the plate. Chippers bat path will not cause him to "chop" the ball. The tee is used to prevent "casting" were the hands or elbow comes out first, instead of staying inside the ball.

Actually thats not what we are talking about. That is a different drill entirely. And I know chippers bat path is not causing him to "chop" actually quite the opposite.

People Use 2 Tee's, one right behind the other and the back one being higher, I suppose to try and teach somebody to come down on the ball, which never happens in a high-level swing. Like this guy in the "Post Drill"
http://www.webball.com/skill/doubletee.html

hit-it-hard

01-07-2006, 01:15 AM

This is the "down" and "up" I speak of. I'll give up on "through." It may just be symantics.

I think this may be clear but just to make sure...

The reason you have this "down and up" is because the swing plane shown has been angled to reach the ball - not because of swinging down at the ball. If the hitter removed the forward bend at the hips so his spine was vertical (as occurs when hitting the high pitch), the swing plane shown in the skeletal diagram would be chest high and parallel to the ground and the "down and up" would be gone. So...

No need to teach to swing down, just teach how to set the swing plane properly.

Do we teach 9-12 year olds how to hit the same way we teach players high school age and older? Many coaches I have run across feel there is a definative stepping stone approach.

I still say teach the same swing. There are some things I'd recomend doing differently... use (or at least start with) a no stride swing, use simpler lower body loading mechanics (not saying less emphasis on loading, but I would show more advanced ways loading options to older kids), hit the ball deeper off a tee to emphasize remaining connected and proper contact position, etc.

In other words, I would try to make it as simple as possible for younger kids - hopefully get them to understand and be able to perform the basic concepts:

proper posture to align the swing plane and get the body ready to unload (i.e., loaded)
staying connected while swinging
effective rotation

If these basics are understood and used, you don't have to worry about things like "swing down" which is often used because of 1) a "loop" or "uppercut" because the kid thinks that's what Bonds is doing or 2) the hands are dropping to adjust swing plane - both of which occur because the kid really doesn't understand that the swing is in a plane and is set by tilting forward before rotating. In other words, I'd recommend concentrating on teaching proper mechanics instead of trying to avoid/fix a symptom of a poor swing.

tadlock11

01-07-2006, 05:43 AM

hiddengem

01-07-2006, 09:49 AM

I was checking out that webball site shown above and found this as one of their drills: http://www.webball.com/skill/batdrills.html
Chair Drill for Uppercutters Use an old bat and place a batting tee on front of home plate, with an old folding chair or a tall cone behind the tee. Make sure that the tee is just slightly lower than the back of the chair so that you must swing with a slightly downward angle in getting to the ball. Don't put the chair or cone too close to the tee--at contact you may want a very slight upward movement. If the hitter uppercuts, they will only hit the back of the chair, providing very noisy feedback.

Isn't that the same thing we've been telling you to avoid? Like hit it said. What happens if you stand stright up with a stright spine and swing. Your swing plane should be absolutely parallel to the ground, thus making this drill useless. When you bend over or tilt your spine forward (over the plate) and rotate, your swing plane is the same its just now angled downward a bit.

jbooth

01-07-2006, 11:35 AM

Chair Drill for Uppercutters Use an old bat and place a batting tee on front of home plate, with an old folding chair or a tall cone behind the tee. Make sure that the tee is just slightly lower than the back of the chair so that you must swing with a slightly downward angle in getting to the ball. Don't put the chair or cone too close to the tee--at contact you may want a very slight upward movement. If the hitter uppercuts, they will only hit the back of the chair, providing very noisy feedback.

Nobody in MLB swings down like that (bathead going from high to low toward the ball.) The bathead in an MLB swing gets below the ball and comes up at the ball, and they do it without dropping their hands or looping. They drop the back shoulder and tilt over to swing the bathead arc on a fairly vertical plane that also is a bit on an upward plane. I don't think some of you guys understand the difference between an arc and a plane.

The hands and back shoulder move in unison and the hands stay up and move around toward the front armpit, they don't immediately move off the line of the shoulders, down toward the ball (as Jake teaches and you are drilling.)

Here is one example (I could show you many more but I'm not going to waste that much time.)

To swing like an MLB player you would need to put the tee that holds the ball, higher than the back tee. Then you would be swinging like Griffey, Bonds, Jeter, Manny Ramirez and just about every MLB player. The bat goes up into the ball.

Look at this; the picture quality is bad so I put a black line over the bat so you can see it better. Note the path of the bathead (green) and the path of his hands (red) and the shoulder (yellow). They move to get the bathead down below the ball early, and then move up into the ball. The hands go down initially for an instant but they don't continue down, they go around and up before the bat contacts the ball.

http://firstpickclub.com/images/hitters/griffypathsmarked.jpg

tadlock11

01-07-2006, 12:24 PM

jbooth

01-07-2006, 01:39 PM

That is a very good illustration and I don't disagree with what you are showing. If I may ask another question though. What drill do you recomend for a little league age player that has a "looping" swing? And by that I meam if he were doing the fence drill he would be ruining his bat.
Now that I've asked that, I'll come back with this - after a little observation, this seems to happen (looping swing) when the hitter doesn't get his hips around and has full extension before contact.

The kids move the bat with their arms. THAT is the problem.

In doing the fence drill, initially; have them put the bat against the outside of their shoulder, and their hands close to their shoulder. Make them turn their hips, and then their shoulders without moving their hands WHATSOEVER from their original starting point and keep the bat touching their shoulder until they have rotated to the point where their chest is facing the pitcher. Only at THAT point do your arms and hands move from their original spot, and the hands should move around the body toward where the front shoulder now is. NOT toward the ball, or the pitcher, or down toward the waist. The hands basically go from armpit to armpit and they don't move until the shoulders have rotated.

The problem you are trying to cure is, them using their arms to move the bat, instead of their body. Form a box with the hands and arms and learn to turn the box.

A saying that has been around for about a hundred years;
"Keep your hands back."
Actually means; turn your hips, then your shoulders while keeping your hands in their original spot ("back") at the armpit. NOT "keeping your hands back" means that you are moving the bat toward the ball with your arms, and you are doing it before or with your body turn. That is VERY bad.

Ohfor

01-07-2006, 02:24 PM

Good job jim.

Jake Patterson

01-08-2006, 09:44 AM

To help get this thread back on track I've attached the following from the Little League's official Training book called Advanced Baseball By Al Herback and Al Price.

Al and Al are used as the only official trainers for Little League Baseball and Softball International. I have spoken to Al Herback (A great guy) and I feel he believes teaching children is drastically different (my words not his) than teaching adults. The biggest difficulty I see in teaching hitting to children lies between Step's 2 and 3. Any comments???

4769 4770

Note: The above is copyright protected.
Sorry for the quality

Ohfor

01-08-2006, 10:24 AM

Based on the pictures, I'd have to say Al and Al have kept thousands from reaching their potential

jbooth

01-08-2006, 10:38 AM

To help get this thread back on track I've attached the following from the Little League's official Training book called Advanced Baseball By Al Herback and Al Price.

If you swing like that, you won't even do well in Little League let alone at any level higher than that.

And, to stay on track; I teach 7 year olds the same way I teach 17 year olds. Obviously, the words I use and my manner are different, but I go through the same drills and methodology.

I currently have four 7 year olds who are hitting 80% of the golf ball size wiffle balls that shoot out of a machine and they hit them with a SwiftStik.

I have one 9 year-old who literally fell down while swinging when he first came to me and couldn't hit any balls. He now, (after 10 lessons) hits 80% of the balls and doesn't fall down. Communication changes with the age of the student, but not the method of teaching, or the swing. I make sure they learn to balance, and turn their hips correctly, before I teach anything else. They MUST learn to keep the head still and rotate. Once they learn that, the rest is easy to fill in.

Jake Patterson

01-08-2006, 11:04 AM

They MUST learn to keep the head still and rotate. Once they learn that, the rest is easy to fill in.

There is a great deal of common ground...
Took a look at your TV show clip and what you are doing in California with kids. Seems like a great place...

tadlock11

01-08-2006, 02:16 PM

I have had my 10 yr old using a device called a "hands back hitter" for about a year now. It has helped him tremendously. With "keeping the box" would anyone recomend the soccer ball drill? (holding a soccer ball between the cone of the bat and shoulder)
Also for the rotation a drill that I've found to help is holding the bat behind the back around the waist. Never tried the soccer ball drill above that's why I'm curious about it.

hiddengem

01-08-2006, 06:16 PM

Ursa Major

01-08-2006, 07:46 PM

Based on the pictures, I'd have to say Al and Al have kept thousands from reaching their potentialActually, it's not too bad at the beginning.... until they start talking about the swing itself. Then, of course, no discussion about what happens to the body. And isn't it odd that the righty and lefty have completely different swings? What kind of training illustrations are they??!
I have had my 10 yr old using a device called a "hands back hitter" for about a year now. It has helped him tremendously. With "keeping the box" would anyone recomend the soccer ball drill? (holding a soccer ball between the cone of the bat and shoulder)Glad the hands back works for you. I would limit its use to getting a kid from starting his swing before his front heel plants. And, stomping on the string to get the ball released would seem to promote lunging. I suppose it's a bit better than just using a tee all the time. Beyond that, there is a risk that it promotes too much disconnection between the movement of the front knee, hips and shoulders. The force needs to flow up the body. I guess if the kid is used to the device, he can keep it flowing. Thanks for your observations. I've seen 'em but wondered if they really helped.

I'm not sure exactly how your soccer ball drill works out; it would seem to slide out from between the shoulder and bat too easily. Some players, especially girl softball players, like to stuff a stuffed toy between their hands and back shoulder, then swing. Depending on where the toy fall, they can see if they disconnect too soon. It's sweet to see a freshfaced 11 year old girl on hitting-mechanics.org tuck her plushy CareBear on her shoulder, and then rip into wiffle ball on a tee.
There is a great deal of common ground...
Took a look at your TV show clip and what you are doing in California with kids. Seems like a great place...I assume you're talking about Jim's FirstPick academy in Novato, CA? Yeah, I was sold on the place when I saw that he got the fifty-something woman newscaster in high heels nearly break the camera with a line drive. I took my son up there (we're only about thirty-five minutes away), and it's like Legoland for baseball players, with all sorts of Jim's invented gadgets to isolate various parts of the swing or pitching motion. Lotsa eye candy to keep kids engaged. And with Jim's eye, all that stuff helps him hone right in on what a kid needs to work on.

Jake Patterson

01-08-2006, 07:51 PM

I feel bad for those kids..they could be having so much more fun.

It's hard to say how much fun they are, or are not having....

Through their own admission however, (Using the numbers on their Website) Al and Al train less than 1% (.7% by my research) of the total amount of Little League coaches coaching in Little League. And Little League International (LLI) does not seem too interested in changing that.

Questions that should be asked by LLI (Or for that matter anyone who coaches baseball) are:

1. Do we have appropriate Train the Trainer programs in place to effectively train LL coaches?
2. Are the training methods used to train LL coaches technically sound and age appropriate?
3. Are we training players safely from both a physical hazard and biological standpoint?
4. Do we have a systematic way to evaluate the coaches' ability to train players? Does that system provide feedback in a positive and helpful manner?
5. Do we have an effective training methods that can ultimately reach the maximum amount of coaches and players?

For those players, or parents of players who can afford clinics, trainers and lessons this may not be too big of a deal. But a survey conducted in our league last year showed that more than 90% of the players in the league do not participate in this (number one reason being expense) manner of training, relying only on LL coaches and parents, understanding that most are not the caliber of player that warrents private lessons. Discussion with other leagues indicate this is the norm.

The reason I have been so interested in the pitching and hitting threads is because of the variety of methods I have seen out there when teaching young players- This, by the way, is not a jab at anyone's method - But... there has to be a way to establish a "Best in Class" method using scientific, biologic and kinesiological methods - Again no jab here-

I will be attending the World Baseball Convention in CT this week. Of the 70 sessions they are conducting over the three days, 7 are of hitting and all will have a different twist, opinion, or angle. The instructors include some of the game's best - Dwight Evans, Bobby Valentine, Mike Barnett, Ron Jackson, Roger Lafrancois, Bill Springman, Butch Hobson and Don Slaught, just to name a few. See: http://www.baseballcoachesclinic.com/presenters.php

If they differ?..... how can we not? Now, there are basics we all agree with and train. But we would be hard pressed to get two Little Leagues that train the same basics the same way.

From a high school coaching perspective this is a problem for me as the LL (Along with the the middle school, AAU, etc) is my feeder program.

So again, revisiting the initial question, or at least the intent of the original question, how do we best train 9-12 year olds effectively using "Best in Class" methods? (Not a specific question for any one person- just throwing it out there so you better understand from what angle I am asking)

hiddengem

01-08-2006, 08:34 PM

I assume you're talking about Jim's FirstPick academy in Novato, CA? Yeah, I was sold on the place when I saw that he got the fifty-something woman newscaster in high heels nearly break the camera with a line drive. I took my son up there (we're only about thirty-five minutes away), and it's like Legoland for baseball players, with all sorts of Jim's invented gadgets to isolate various parts of the swing or pitching motion. Lotsa eye candy to keep kids engaged. And with Jim's eye, all that stuff helps him hone right in on what a kid needs to work on.

What is his website address?

jbooth

01-08-2006, 11:13 PM

What is his website address?

firstpickclub.com

First Pick Baseball Training Club (http://firstpickclub.com)

The TV show is 5 minutes long and is a large download so be aware before you click. The ads are 30 second commercials

hiddengem

01-08-2006, 11:34 PM

firstpickclub.com

First Pick Baseball Training Club (http://firstpickclub.com)

The TV show is 5 minutes long and is a large download so be aware before you click. The ads are 30 second commercials

yea I just clicked on it and it played with out me having to download it. Very nice facility you have going. Best of luck.

Here is a couple random shots of our place out in Texas
http://thehitting-zone.com/photos.php?RollID=images%2Fphoto_galleries%2Ffacil ities&FrameID=PA240008

http://thehitting-zone.com/photos.php?RollID=images%2Fphoto_galleries%2Ffacil ities&FrameID=P1010023

Jake Patterson

01-09-2006, 08:22 AM

Here is a couple random shots of our place out in Texas

Another great looking faciliity HG. I like the way you have set up your cages.

The facility we use is www.americasgame.com -owned by Andy and Pete Walker. Andy is one of the clinicians we use at our annual clinics. He is also puts together the World's Baseball Convention held at the Mohegan Sun Arena.

tadlock11

01-09-2006, 01:52 PM

Glad the hands back works for you. I would limit its use to getting a kid from starting his swing before his front heel plants. And, stomping on the string to get the ball released would seem to promote lunging. I suppose it's a bit better than just using a tee all the time. Beyond that, there is a risk that it promotes too much disconnection between the movement of the front knee, hips and shoulders. The force needs to flow up the body. I guess if the kid is used to the device, he can keep it flowing. Thanks for your observations. I've seen 'em but wondered if they really helped.
UM- It actually promotes just the opposite, as the name suggests. There is a good delay between stepping on the string and the ball being released. When my son first started using it, he was used to the kids toys that use similar mechanical releases and was lunging at the ball. This contraption (HBH) forces the hitter to keep their hands/weight back, separating the stride from the load and hip rotation. Not sure how to add it here, but if interested I have a small mpeg of his first day using the thing.

tadlock11

01-09-2006, 02:25 PM

IF this worked, here is the first day my son used the thing: http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=60479&currentDate=20060109&currentTime=132222
and this is after one week:
http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=60479&currentDate=20060109&currentTime=132222
This were done about a year ago, feel free to give some constructive crisism on the second one.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 06:26 AM

it didnt work.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 07:25 AM

UM-...There is a good delay between stepping on the string and the ball being released...

And this is the real reason why the contraption is useless. Pay attention to the time lapse between a hitter placing his foot down and the launch of his swing. It is very very very small. Yet, the contraption makes you put the foot down and wait for the ball. This is so far from the reality of a real swing.

And the significance of this is huge. A real hitter rotates into footplant when he swings. There is NO delay in a real swing. There is no delay in the hitters load/unload cycle. Yet this contraption teaches a delay.

This ranks second as the worst hitting tool I've seen. #1 is the Griffey Instructo Swing.

Here is a demonstration of why the HBH is worthless.....

http://www.hitting-mechanics.org/HMPFTP/sbcompare3lr.gif

These two clips are synced to toe touch. Notice the delay in the HBH usage. Notice how little time from foot plant to launch in the live hitter.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 07:27 AM

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 08:31 AM

These two clips are synced to toe touch. Notice the delay in the HBH usage. Notice how little time from foot plant to launch in the live hitter.

We need to be careful here. You are comparing what appears to be a college player or pro to a ten year old kid. As UM noted in an earlier note each of these devises have their limitations and purposes and are geard for a very specific use. I believe the Hands Back is made to teach seperation. Timing may be the next step.

Tadlock, when compared against other ten year olds, he does pretty well. There are certainly issues with his swings as there are with every ten year old I've ever seen. Teaching a good swing is a process not an event. Keep your chin up!

Ohfor - Providing both clips synced is a very valuable tool. You know what you have compared against what should be.
I like it!

tadlock11

01-10-2006, 09:46 AM

I can see where too much of a delay would be bad. The spring tension is adjustable for quicker releases. Also in the comp pictures, would the player on the right have the same smooth swing if it were a changeup? Not that that particular pitch isn't, but for the most part on what I've observed, hitters are way out in front.
After my son used this for a few weeks, his hitting improved by leaps and bounds. We used this at practice with a tournament team as a station. The teams hitting improved (all but one or two players hit over .500) I haven't tried many hitting devices but this one worked for us.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 09:58 AM

We need to be careful here. You are comparing what appears to be a college player or pro to a ten year old kid.

The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid. He can not rotate into footplant. He can not properly load/unload his hips.

I believe the Hands Back is made to teach seperation. Timing may be the next step.

The hands back hitter is designed to promote just what it says. But, it really compromises ones ability to launch his swing properly.

Timing is not what you see as you look at the difference between the two hitters. Timing is making your swing match the arrival of the pitch.

What you see in the clip is an illustration of a large compromise of swing quickness. You see a compromise in the load/unload of the hips. You see a compromise in intensity. You see a compromise in the ability to launch properly.

This is a HUGE issue and should not be overlooked.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 10:02 AM

...
After my son used this for a few weeks, his hitting improved by leaps and bounds...

So..........are you in this for the short term? Are you interested in teaching a kid something that will work as long as he's facing mediocre pitching? Are you interested in teaching something that may help him now but will compromise his ability to play at a high level?

If so........keep at it.

High level swings will not come out of the HBH.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 10:07 AM

And this is the real reason why the contraption is useless. Pay attention to the time lapse between a hitter placing his foot down and the launch of his swing. It is very very very small. Yet, the contraption makes you put the foot down and wait for the ball. This is so far from the reality of a real swing.

And the significance of this is huge. A real hitter rotates into footplant when he swings. There is NO delay in a real swing. There is no delay in the hitters load/unload cycle. Yet this contraption teaches a delay.

This ranks second as the worst hitting tool I've seen. #1 is the Griffey Instructo Swing.

Here is a demonstration of why the HBH is worthless.....

http://www.hitting-mechanics.org/HMPFTP/sbcompare3lr.gif

These two clips are synced to toe touch. Notice the delay in the HBH usage. Notice how little time from foot plant to launch in the live hitter.

How would you(Nyman) teach somebody to keep their weight back/hands back. This hitter you have shown appears to be hitting a fastball in where keeping your hands back doesn't apply.

I think what this little "tool" is teaching this kid to do is to "reach" with his front foot while keeping his weight centered(Bonds) and his head centered rather than lunging his whole body forward when he steps.

Now, do I like the delay in time between step and swing? Not necessarily, but I do know a kid in the big leagues that has got over 200 hits for the past 3 seasons that does it quite often..Michael Young

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 10:20 AM

...This hitter you have shown appears to be hitting a fastball in where keeping your hands back doesn't apply.

Totally disagree. His hands are back when he STARTS THE SWING.....which is the issue. What he does to get to this pitch is a result of him having his hands back which allows the opportunity to get to this pitch.

I do know a kid in the big leagues that has got over 200 hits for the past 3 seasons that does it quite often..Michael Young

But this is being sold to kids who have no clue about the difference between "hands back" and "launching properly" I'm quite sure, if you what you say is correct about Michael Young, that he knows the difference.

99.9% of all dads, youth coaches, and amateur players do not.

And while "hands back" is good, it is EASILY taught by more sound methods that don't compromise the launch. So easily taught it's almost a no teach.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 10:20 AM

i guess the question is...is the step a seperate movement from the swing?

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 10:26 AM

i guess the question is...is the step a seperate movement from the swing?

I don't belive it should although many do it.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 10:28 AM

Totally disagree. His hands are back when he STARTS THE SWING.....which is the issue. What he does to get to this pitch is a result of him having his hands back which allows the opportunity to get to this pitch.

But this is being sold to kids who have no clue about the difference between "hands back" and "launching properly" I'm quite sure, if you what you say is correct about Michael Young, that he knows the difference.

99.9% of all dads, youth coaches, and amateur players do not.

And while "hands back" is good, it is EASILY taught by more sound methods that don't compromise the launch. So easily taught it's almost a no teach.

So, what would this kid do if he started his swing thinking it was a fastball, and then realized it was a change up? Just take that beautiful swing that you guys talk about and miss it by 3 feet?

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 10:33 AM

to me it would seem detrimental to a smooth swing to step and wait for that ball to move up.:crazy

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 10:35 AM

to me it would seem detrimental to a smooth swing to step and wait for that ball to move up.:crazy

Many guys do it with 2 strikes. They do it so that there foot is down, they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 11:18 AM

The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid. He can not rotate into footplant. He can not properly load/unload his hips.

Damn we agree on another issue.:crazy

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 11:20 AM

Many guys do it with 2 strikes. They do it so that there foot is down, they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.

sounds like a 90 footer at best
it disrupts the flow.

BUT THEN AGAIN.no striders do it all the time,but then again the toe turn might be their trigger?

Ursa Major

01-10-2006, 11:43 AM

Ohfor, first for taking the time to match the two swings. It's a great help in illustrating your point, although I think much is lost when you draw too many conclusions from it. And, like everything from a gun to a car to the fence drill (remember THAT thread on hitting-mechanics.org?), it can be misused and overused by the ignorant. It's good to know that we're all the "one in a thousand" here who OhFor believes will know how to use it.

What is missed here is that for many hitters, there are two components to the "foot plant", although not for the big hitter on the right. For them, you first land on the inside of the big toe of the plant foot, keeping that heel up. Then, when the pitch is timed, they slam that heel down as they rotate. So, conceivably, these hitters could launch the ball by tapping the string with their toe, then doing the heel down/rotate when the ball reaches the right height. It seems that it would take some practice to hit the string with that small (big toe) surface area of your foot, but I guess it's doable.

And, as seems to be universally agreed by everyone but OhFor, there are going to be times you do a full foot plant but have to delay your swing because you've been fooled by the speed. We sometimes see too much in clips of perfect swings and forget that most of our swings require adjustments to the speed and location of pitches. I'd like to see the other ten or so swings that lefty batter in OhFor's clip took in that game.

As noted above, I have problems with the device that others have articulated quite well. I don't like the eye path that it forces the batter to take; it's completely antithetical to following a real pitch.

I don't dispute that OhFor is right about the ultimate dangers that steady use of the device might create, but if it gives a cue that solves a basic problem with younger kids and if coaches supplement it with other instruction and stop its use at the appropriate time, it's not going to ruin a kid's swing. And most importantly here, this kid seems to have more confidence in his swing (and much better bat angle, which probably is more of the cause of the good swing than the trainer is). In 9-10 year old ball, that swing will get a lot of balls to the outfield, which is all you want.

Where's there's an implicit message in OhFor's post that bears discussion is this: coaches may sometimes confuse a quick fix and let kids use bad technique because the kids get a short term lurch in batting average. The converse of that is coaches (or parents) who are reluctant to move their kids up to the next level of technique because it causes a short term decrease in results as the kid adjusts.

So, my advice would be to largely keep that puppy away from kids who either (a) don't use a two-step foot plant as described above, or (b) already are able to keep their hands back and don't need the help. But, if the kids treat it as a magic pill that gets their mojo working, well, maybe let 'em use it a little under close supervision. :dance

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 11:44 AM

So, what would this kid do if he started his swing thinking it was a fastball, and then realized it was a change up? Just take that beautiful swing that you guys talk about and miss it by 3 feet?

First of all, if he's starting his swing before he realizes the pitch, he's not going to play very long anyway. He'll get eaten up early in the food chain. Not to say it doesn't happen. But, it doesn't happen that often with good hitters.

Secondly, what you're really missing is how quick the swing is from launch to contact. Roughly .2 of a second. And the point is, when your swing is quick enough you can wait long enough. If it isn't quick enough, you have to start early and it's those people who won't be playing very long. Quicker swing means longer wait which means better read which means better results.

The quickness you see out of this live hitter gives him the opportunity to make last second adjustments with his hands to get to a pitch. Actually with his arms. His arms will hold the hands in or let them out a little as needed. But the first adjustor used is the posture. Very good hitters make the majority of their adjustments with posture......not their arms or hands.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 11:47 AM

...they are loaded and then they just look for the ball. Less chance of being fooled or way out in front of something.

Very poor hitting technique. There is no "loaded" so they can wait for the ball. There is only loading and unloading. To load, stop and wait is exactly what the HBH forces you to do. And it will kill your ability to hit.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 11:48 AM

The age difference has nothing to do with this issue. Put the college player against the hands back hitter and he has the same problem as the kid.

This is exactly right. Age is no issue in this discussion.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 11:50 AM

...no striders do it all the time,but then again the toe turn might be their trigger?

No, no striders don't do it all the time. In fact, their loading is somewhat easier to see and understand because it isn't "hidden" by the stride. In other words, most people misinterpret the stride. Reality is there is no such thing as a stride. There is a movement of the center while loading.......which many call a stride. But there is no stride.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 12:02 PM

What is missed here is that for many hitters, there are two components to the "foot plant", although not for the big hitter on the right. For them, you first land on the inside of the big toe of the plant foot, keeping that heel up. Then, when the pitch is timed, they slam that heel down as they rotate. So, conceivably, these hitters could launch the ball by tapping the string with their toe, then doing the heel down/rotate when the ball reaches the right height. It seems that it would take some practice to hit the string with that small (big toe) surface area of your foot, but I guess it's doable.

The issue is not whether the toe touches first and then the heel is pushed down by rotation. The issue is the time between the two. If you look at 100 swings from the same guy, a very high percentage of them you won't be able to tell a difference in the time between touch and drop. Probably as high as 90% in the very best hitters. Everyone is fooled now and then, and they make the best adjustments they can............but for the life of me I see no reason to practice a poor swing. And that is exactly what a "delay between touch and drop swing" is. It's what you do when fooled. But you don't want to be fooled. The answer to being fooled is to learn how to not be fooled. Not..."this is how I handle it if I'm fooled." Which by result will be often.

And, as seems to be universally agreed by everyone but OhFor,

I've already acknowledged that you do this when fooled. My question is why practice a poor swing? Why make your poor swing YOUR swing. Which is what you do by using the HBH.

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 12:22 PM

And that is exactly what a "delay between touch and drop swing" is. It's what you do when fooled. But you don't want to be fooled. The answer to being fooled is to learn how to not be fooled. Not..."this is how I handle it if I'm fooled." Which by result will be often.

EXACTLY,the hands back hitter devolops a swing that looks like you've been fooled.
It just cant be good to wait that long for that ball to pop up.

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 12:35 PM

This is exactly right. Age is no issue in this discussion.

How we teach 9-10 year olds versus older athletes is. Kenesiologist, bio mechanics experts, and medical professionals all agree that the pre-pubescent, post-pubescent and adult bodies all work differently, never mind the muscle memory that the older players have developed over thousands and thousands of swings.

I don't think anyone here believes the hesitation in the 10 year old's swing is a good thing, but if the devise is used as a step toward an ultimate goal then why not use it?

Why do we use tees, hitting sticks, soft-toss, etc? Strickly to teach.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 01:20 PM

Very poor hitting technique. There is no "loaded" so they can wait for the ball. There is only loading and unloading. To load, stop and wait is exactly what the HBH forces you to do. And it will kill your ability to hit.

You sound like you've got this all figured out. How high of a level did you play and have success?

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 01:28 PM

First of all, if he's starting his swing before he realizes the pitch, he's not going to play very long anyway. He'll get eaten up early in the food chain. Not to say it doesn't happen. But, it doesn't happen that often with good hitters.

Have YOU ever stood in the box facing a right handed pitcher(assuming you are a right handed hitter) that can bring it 95mp with boaring action on your hands, along with a good slider at 85mph or change with the same arm action at 85mph?

You make it seem like its just "ho hum" that you just sit there and wait to see the ball and don't make a swing movement until you've seen the ball, and know what it is. I personally don't think you have a clear understanding of what it takes to actually "hit" at a high-level. I think you have a pretty good understanding of what a nice pretty swing looks like when everything is on perfect timing. I think you've been studying these pretty beautiful swings too much, you need to look at some swings where good hitters are fooled and still have success. What happens then?

hit-it-hard

01-10-2006, 01:52 PM

You sound like you've got this all figured out. How high of a level did you play and have success?

HG, in general I value what you say here... but every time you disagree or don't have an answer for something, this is your fallback question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 02:01 PM

HG, in general I value what you say here... but every time you disagree or don't have an answer for something, this is your fallback question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

I appreiciate you valuing what I say, but maybe you could explain to me how I get through to somebody that has never experienced what I'm talking about? Nyman knows,ohfor knows and lots of others know what happens when a hitter takes a good swing. Ok fine, but to be able to be succesful at a high level (not take a high-level swing) takes alot more being able to take a pretty swing. And I don't think somebody can have an understanding of that unless they've had the opportunity to hit on a consistent basis at a high level. Thats all. Understand?

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 02:04 PM

...

Why do we use tees, hitting sticks, soft-toss, etc? Strickly to teach.

None of them require a delay in the swing.

Ohfor

01-10-2006, 02:08 PM

Have YOU ever stood in the box facing a right handed pitcher(assuming you are a right handed hitter) that can bring it 95mp with boaring action on your hands, along with a good slider at 85mph or change with the same arm action at 85mph?

I have and I still do.

You make it seem like its just "ho hum" that you just sit there and wait to see the ball and don't make a swing movement until you've seen the ball,

Nice try. Is it your intent to cloud the discussion by using "don't make a swing movement" until you've seen the ball, instead of "launch your swing".

wogdoggy

01-10-2006, 04:01 PM

You make it seem like its just "ho hum" that you just sit there and wait to see the ball and don't make a swing movement until you've seen the ball, and know what it is.

HG I think you and ohfor on on the same page here.You cant wait that long to make a decision.The hands back hitter makes you wait.The toe touch and plant rotate happen so fast that the HBH would either have you flat footed or landing on your toe waiting and waiting.:gt

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 04:56 PM

None of them require a delay in the swing.

You've missed the point....

Ursa Major

01-10-2006, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ohfor
None of them require a delay in the swing.
You've missed the point....Exactly. All drills and devices to some extent create an artificial circumstance that differs from game conditions so as to allow elimination of one or more game variables in order to isolate on an area that needs work. So, you can say that a tee is no good because it doesn't simulate the adjustment required of a batter to deal with pitch movement.

Also, drills will often exaggerate a movement that an athlete must make to overcome a flaw in technique. For example, many young pitchers rush their motions right through the posting/lifting of the glove side leg. So, my son's pitching coach has them drill so that they stop and hold the leg up until he calls for them to continue their motion. So, for hitters who start their swing before their foot plants, the exaggerated wait may have some initial benefit.
The issue is not whether the toe touches first and then the heel is pushed down by rotation. The issue is the time between the two. If you look at 100 swings from the same guy, a very high percentage of them you won't be able to tell a difference in the time between touch and drop. Probably as high as 90% in the very best hitters. Everyone is fooled now and then, and they make the best adjustments they can............but for the life of me I see no reason to practice a poor swing.We're not talking about using the HBH with the very best hitters. The question is whether or not it will lend some help to young, weaker hitters with a specific flaw. And, even if we're talking about the best hitters, well, they wouldn't need HBH for pitches they've timed well. But it might come in handy on those pitches that they haven't timed well. You don't always practice for the best of times, but sometimes for disasters as well. And it's not practicing "a poor swing"; just a delayed one where you try to make the rest of the mechanics approach your "good swing".

But since you're raising the issue of high level hitting, I think it permits HiddenGems to raise the issue of OhFor's experience in hitting. (True, that's not the only test; if OhFor had coached high level players and demonstrably made a difference in their outcomes, then we'd give him credit for that too.) This all started with OhFor saying, "First of all, if he's starting his swing before he realizes the pitch, he's not going to play very long anyway. He'll get eaten up early in the food chain. Not to say it doesn't happen. But, it doesn't happen that often with good hitters." This suggests his belief that a hitter would rarely initiate his swing before he had the pitch completely timed (at least that's what I think the phrase "before he realizes the pitch" means). HG has sat in pro and major league dugouts for several years, faced the best pitchers in the world, and been trained by professional coaches, and thus is in a pretty good position to know (a) what kind of hitting training will ultimately get you to that level, and (b) what kind of training is necessary to successfully adapt to something that pitchers are paid tens of millions of dollars a year to try to do, which is to mess with hitters' timing on every pitch.

So, someone who suggests that a hitter at that level rarely initiates his swing earlier than is optimal better be in a pretty good position to see and confront that problem. HG's not arguing conceptual theory with physicists here; he's talking about what pro hitters face on a daily basis. If OhFor has a source for his belief, I'd like to hear it, as well as the basis for his statement that he has and does face pitchers who "can bring it 95 mph with boring action on your hands, along with a good slider at 85mph or change with the same arm action at 85mph". Must be one helluva league he plays in.

tadlock11

01-10-2006, 08:09 PM

Exactly. All drills and devices to some extent create an artificial circumstance that differs from game conditions so as to allow elimination of one or more game variables in order to isolate on an area that needs work. So, you can say that a tee is no good because it doesn't simulate the adjustment required of a batter to deal with pitch movement.

Also, drills will often exaggerate a movement that an athlete must make to overcome a flaw in technique. For example, many young pitchers rush their motions right through the posting/lifting of the glove side leg. So, my son's pitching coach has them drill so that they stop and hold the leg up until he calls for them to continue their motion. So, for hitters who start their swing before their foot plants, the exaggerated wait may have some initial benefit.

Thank You Ursa Major, that is exactly what I was thinking as I've been reading through these posts. We use the HBH as a station, not as the sole method of batting practice.
I would love to see a thread on drills: pros and cons of each one, brought up.
Especially to hear what works and what doesn't. Why certain ones work better and what they cure. Of course I want this info to use at 10-12 yr old practices.

Jake Patterson

01-10-2006, 08:57 PM

I would love to see a thread on drills: pros and cons of each one, brought up.
Especially to hear what works and what doesn't. Why certain ones work better and what they cure. Of course I want this info to use at 10-12 yr old practices.

Tadlock - this would be a great idea, but we would have to all figure out how to post clips of what we're talking about. The venacular, terminology and names we use may present problems, but I like the idea!

Ursa Major Also, drills will often exaggerate a movement that an athlete must make to overcome a flaw in technique.

Ursa, It is sometimes difficult to make others understand the difference between doing and teaching, especially those that haven't coached. "The measure of a good coach is not how well he can play the game, it's how well he can teach it."

This thread has reminded me of the old joke about the young bull and the old bull walking over a rise and seeing a herd of cows. The young bull says to the old bull, "Let's run down there and have our way with one of them cows." The old bull replies. "Let's walk down and have our way with them all."

Those of us who are old bulls are not trying to prove our genius in the game of baseball or prove who knows more than who. I'm just trying to figure out a better way to teach what we know to the young bulls. Thanks for your comments!

HG - your experience is well appreciated. Again knowing how it should be done is very helpful when trying to close the training gap with young players.

hiddengem

01-10-2006, 09:35 PM

I have and I still do.

I'm not concerned with proving you wrong, but it would help us all if we new what the highest level you have played at is.

Nice try. Is it your intent to cloud the discussion by using "don't make a swing movement" until you've seen the ball, instead of "launch your swing".

Actually I'm making that exact point. Here let me try and explain it a different way.

If you think that you are so good that you can sit in the box facing a pitcher that can spot 95 on your hands and then spot a changeup on the outer part of the plate at 85 with the same arm action and think for one second that you can cover both pitches, you are crazy or Barry Bonds masked as "ohfor".

There is a very small chance that you could anticipate him throwing a changeup and still be able to cover 95 on your hands. The same goes for looking for a fastball in and being able to be in a optimal hitting position on a change away.

Why do you think we rely so heavily on advanced scouts? We are looking for tendancies, and patterns pitchers fall into. Its impossible to cover all pitches and all locations, if you try to you'll hit for crap. Thus is the reason many hitters get their foot down early and into a "launch" position with 2 strikes so that all they have to do is react to the ball and unload. The downfall is that you lose alot of power because you are basically trying to put the ball in play, the positive is that you might sneak in a "Duck Fart" for your 3rd hit in 10 Ab's by getting jammed out of your mind with a heater in, trying to protect for the slider away and have it fall into shallow right field.

Ursa Major

01-10-2006, 11:37 PM

I would love to see a thread on drills: pros and cons of each one, brought up. Especially to hear what works and what doesn't. Why certain ones work better and what they cure. Of course I want this info to use at 10-12 yr old practices.Are you talking about hitting drills or drills in general? The latter is too general a topic to discuss in a thread; I'd think you'd want to ask folks for books or other resources from which a coach can pick and choose. There are thousands. Just keep the kids busy and don't have eleven kids watch one kid take batting practice.

If you're talking about hitting drills, it depends on which hitting system you're using. The expert advocating the system will (or should) have a series of drills built to train the kids using it; the training, not the raw technique is the most important part. And, of course, you've got to play it by ear depending on what is working with the kids.

* * *
Jake, thanks for the joke about the two bulls and the cows.... and your delightfully archaic eupemism for, you know. I hadn't heard it in some time.

My amusement increased in reading HG's most recent response to OhFor. Not to take sides on it, but just the colorful heat that flowed out. I wished we were all sitting around with beers and pool cues in hand to hear him say it in person. Somehow it brought back to mind the scene in the classic movie Airplane, where Kareem Abdul Jabbar, who's playing the co-pilot and insisting all along that he's not "that basketball player," is confronted by a kid passenger who says his dad says that he, Jabbar, doesn't hustle enough. Jabbar's character's pleasant demeanor suddenly changes, and he grabs the kid and growls:

"The hell I don't. LISTEN KID. I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes."

As I say, somehow HG's diatribe reminded me of that... in a good way.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 12:01 AM

My amusement increased in reading HG's most recent response to OhFor. Not to take sides on it, but just the colorful heat that flowed out. I wished we were all sitting around with beers and pool cues in hand to hear him say it in person.

As I say, somehow HG's diatribe reminded me of that... in a good way.

Thanks John...I'm a terrible writer but I'm glad you can understand the passion and respect I have for "the game".

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 09:02 AM

Why do you think we rely so heavily on advanced scouts? We are looking for tendancies, and patterns pitchers fall into. Its impossible to cover all pitches and all locations, if you try to you'll hit for crap...

You're making my point. With this "advanced" knowledge we are expecting/looking for a certain pitch in a certain area. Now, from there, we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING.

IF we are swinging, you won't launch until you've made your decision. Still could be wrong. Sometimes we are. But, nevertheless, you don't swing before you know where you're swinging.

And, you failed to cover the difference between "starting your swing movements" and "launching your swing." Makes you look better I guess.

The fact remains, I do get the point about the devices that coaches use to help players. I do get the fact that we try to isolate things that need improvement. That we may overemphasize certain aspects of a swing to "get it" better.

That in no way supports the damage the HBH does to young hitters. The first thing young hitters need is a better mental picture of just how quick the swing needs to be. In fact, this fact alone can straighten out many flaws. Many flaws exist because there is time for them to exist. Hitters swings are so slow (in comparison to what they need to be) that they fill this time with inefficient movements. And then these inefficient movements are in the way of a quick swing. They go to launch and they can't. If and when they get the understanding of how quick the swing needs to be, you'll find much of the inefficiencies disappear. Of course, not all, but a good deal of it.

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good). Hopefully Iron Mikes. Tell them to swing as quickly as they can as soon as they see the ball. Tell them the goal is not to hit the ball but to complete their swing as quickly as they can.....but only after they see the ball. If you're working with young hitters, 95% of them will see the ball, swing quickly, and then a few fractions of a second later the ball will come into the zone. THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE TIDBIT OF INFORMATION FOR YOUNG HITTERS TO HAVE. They are now seeing, probably for the first time, that they ARE quick enough to hit 85+ or 90 mph. It was demonstrated for them by ASKING THEM NOT TO HIT THE BALL. Why? Because their efforts to hit the ball precludes them from being quick. Their "mental image" of what to do is so far from accurate that they have no chance of ever doing it right. Now they have an image of what has to happen. And, now they know the quickness exists in them. Now, they realize they don't have to cheat by starting early. After some repetition they will learn the length of time it takes them to execute their quick swing. Which is much shorter than they imagined. Now, once they have that memorized (will take much longer than one session to memorize it for good) they need to swing with that quickness every pitch REGARDLESS IF THEY HIT THE BALL. Now, have them move forward toward the machine until their execution is in sync with the machine and watch them launch rope after rope after rope......against very fast pitching.

This is a first step only. This doesn't make them great hitters immediately. BUT, if you want to see a kid start to believe, have him do this. You talk about a great expression on a kids face when he just roped 85 or 90mph pitch after pitch after pitch. I guarantee you'll have a believer on your hands.

The long and the short of it is, their "timing process" needed to be rewired. They have been trying to time a very fast pitch, with minimal reaction time, with their slow, slop and slack filled swing. That is next to impossible to do. And, that is what the HBH teachers them. Be slow. Have slop in the swing. Now, try to time 90 mph.

Once the kids have done this a few times, now they have to learn to maintain that quick swing WHILE learning to time it to the pitch. Not an easy thing to do. But, only now do they have half a chance at being a good hitter. Not until they understand just how quick they need to be can they learn to time pitches.

You'll have to get on them next time they go to the cage because they still don't "have it" yet. They'll have to go through the process again. Once they "feel" the quick swing, they will learn to wait and launch it at the right time. They have no prayer of ever being a hitter if they are not "waiting" for a 90 mph fastball. The only way they can learn to "wait" for a 90mph fastball is to be quick enough to do so........And, the HBH is anti-quickness.

The best thing a coach can do for a hitter is get him more time to make better decisions.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 10:18 AM

You're making my point. With this "advanced" knowledge we are expecting/looking for a certain pitch in a certain area. Now, from there, we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING.
Easier said than done. But I understand your point.

And, you failed to cover the difference between "starting your swing movements" and "launching your swing." Makes you look better I guess.
Well, The start of my swing entails the loading of the scap, some weight shift, maybe a knee cock ect. When I get those things done and set, if I decide to swing at the pitch I launch. I try and make these movements slow and under control so that I slow things down and make that 90 look 80. If I have shart fast movements that 90 can look 100 at times. Agree?

They have no prayer of ever being a hitter if they are not "waiting" for a 90 mph fastball. The only way they can learn to "wait" for a 90mph fastball is to be quick enough to do so

I agree

Jake Patterson

01-11-2006, 10:24 AM

The fact remains, I do get the point about the devices that coaches use to help players. I do get the fact that we try to isolate things that need improvement. That we may overemphasize certain aspects of a swing to "get it" better.

Now we have common ground

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good).

What age group are you talking about? To do this with young kids would be irresponsible.

The best thing a coach can do for a hitter is get him more time to make better decisions.
Think of the physics... What are you trying to gain? At 90MPH (the speed you use above) the most you can gain is .1 or .2 seconds over the life of the pitch. The brain is incapable of making concious decisions at that speed.

Ohfor- just curious... why won't you answer the question about your highest level of play or coaching? Knowing what level the other guys are at helps in understanding the analysis and perspective they provide.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 10:27 AM

Well, The start of my swing entails the loading of the scap, some weight shift, maybe a knee cock ect. When I get those things done and set, if I decide to swing at the pitch I launch...

You have preswing movements (very necessary movements) and then a launch. Yes they do work together. But, there is a definate difference between them. And when to launch is what I'm talking.

You do your preswing movement every pitch. Even the pitches you take. What is the difference? One you launched. One you didn't.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 10:29 AM

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good). Hopefully Iron Mikes. Tell them to swing as quickly as they can as soon as they see the ball. Tell them the goal is not to hit the ball but to complete their swing as quickly as they can.....but only after they see the ball. If you're working with young hitters, 95% of them will see the ball, swing quickly, and then a few fractions of a second later the ball will come into the zone. THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE TIDBIT OF INFORMATION FOR YOUNG HITTERS TO HAVE. They are now seeing, probably for the first time, that they ARE quick enough to hit 85+ or 90 mph. It was demonstrated for them by ASKING THEM NOT TO HIT THE BALL. Why? Because their efforts to hit the ball precludes them from being quick. Their "mental image" of what to do is so far from accurate that they have no chance of ever doing it right. Now they have an image of what has to happen. And, now they know the quickness exists in them. Now, they realize they don't have to cheat by starting early. After some repetition they will learn the length of time it takes them to execute their quick swing. Which is much shorter than they imagined. Now, once they have that memorized (will take much longer than one session to memorize it for good) they need to swing with that quickness every pitch REGARDLESS IF THEY HIT THE BALL. Now, have them move forward toward the machine until their execution is in sync with the machine and watch them launch rope after rope after rope......against very fast pitching

I hope you are talking about doing this with highschool kids, correct?

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 10:30 AM

You have preswing movements (very necessary movements) and then a launch. Yes they do work together. But, there is a definate difference between them. And when to launch is what I'm talking.

You do your preswing movement every pitch. Even the pitches you take. What is the difference? One you launched. One you didn't.

Right..I think I explained that in post #100

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 10:41 AM

..What age group are you talking about? To do this with young kids would be irresponsible.

You ask the question but you don't define the age you work with either. That's the safe way, I guess.

The drill I explained will work for every age group. The point is to "challenge" their quickness". Challenge their underlying image of how quick a swing is. I'll guarantee you that even your best players don't understand if they are still high school or below.

Now, if you're dealing with 9-10 years olds, you do the same thing but you don't crank it up to 90. Maybe 75 or 80. I don't know what speed challenges 9-10 year olds. Don't work with them. If they are 12-14 years old I bet a few can do the drill as defined. Maybe 80-85 is a better setting.

In any case, find what forces them to quickly "pounce like a tiger" laying silently waiting for his prey.

Think of the physics... What are you trying to gain? At 90MPH (the speed you use above) the most you can gain is .1 or .2 seconds over the life of the pitch. The brain is incapable of making concious decisions at that speed.

This is pure hogwash and shows your complete lack of understanding of what goes on in high level swings. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate. The entire process...recognizing the pitch, deciding if to swing, where to swing and then swinging takes roughly .4 seconds in big league hitters. If you give someone .2 you're giving him 50% more time. Please speak about which you know.

why won't you answer the question about your highest level of play or coaching? Knowing what level the other guys are at helps in understanding the analysis and perspective they provide.

This argument shows more about you than me. I will challenge you to think for yourself and compare what is being said to what hitters do. Use video. Compare what anyone tells you, not just me, to what great players actually do. That and that alone should be your benchmark for who is speaking the truth and who isn't. Your "need" for a resume, to verify ones hitting beliefs is a crutch. The biggest proof is the dismal record of mlb organizations developing hitters. Yet, if I said I was the hitting coach for one of those teams you'd believe everything I say. Trust me, the level of instruction in mlb and their minor leagues is pathetic. All they do is provide a forum for hitters to develop i.e. they provide games and at bats. From there it is completely trial and error. I can link you to comments of a professional coach who spell it out very clearly. He went through the minor leagues and played some at the mlb level. Very interesting article.

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 10:57 AM

This is pure hogwash and shows your complete lack of understanding of what goes on in high level swings. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate. The entire process...recognizing the pitch, deciding if to swing, where to swing and then swinging takes roughly .4 seconds in big league hitters. If you give someone .2 you're giving him 50% more time. Please speak about which you know.

This comment alone tells me all I need to know when referring to your knowledge of what it takes to be successfull in mlb or pro ball for that matter.
I mean, are you really serious with this statement? "If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols."? and this one, "If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate"

Do you really think all it takes is the ability to gain .1 or .2 seconds and "Poof" all of a sudden you can hit? Come on..you know better than that.

This argument shows more about you than me. I will challenge you to think for yourself and compare what is being said to what hitters do. Use video. Compare what anyone tells you, not just me, to what great players actually do. That and that alone should be your benchmark for who is speaking the truth and who isn't. Your "need" for a resume, to verify ones hitting beliefs is a crutch. The biggest proof is the dismal record of mlb organizations developing hitters. Yet, if I said I was the hitting coach for one of those teams you'd believe everything I say. Trust me, the level of instruction in mlb and their minor leagues is pathetic. All they do is provide a forum for hitters to develop i.e. they provide games and at bats. From there it is completely trial and error. I can link you to comments of a professional coach who spell it out very clearly. He went through the minor leagues and played some at the mlb level. Very interesting article.

Ok, so you don't want to tell us who you play for, what level. ect. Could you post a clip of your swing, so we see this stuff you are talking about in action?

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 11:18 AM

Sorry you don't understand the advantage of an additional .2 I bet if you had the additional .2 it would've made a hell of a difference in your swing also.

Not saying getting .2 is easy. But .2 would change every 90 mph fastball into a 85 mph fastball. It would give you the needed time to recognize the different pitch speeds and locations.

Sure, Alberts strength and other intangibles are important. But nothing, and I mean nothing is more important than the quickness at which you can complete your swing. The quicker you are from launch to completion, the more read time you have. The more read time you have the better decision you make.

It's like hitting off "a level down" pitcher.

I can't believe you challenge it. Just a few posts ago you agree with the quickness issue. What does the quickness improvement give you?

hiddengem

01-11-2006, 11:37 AM

.

I can't believe you challenge it. Just a few posts ago you agree with the quickness issue. What does the quickness improvement give you?

I don't challege the quickness issue, I think its very important. You can wait a tick longer, buts that not all it takes to hit for a high average. I think you drank too much Nyman cool-aid with the comments you are throwing around. All Mike Matheny needs .1-.2 seconds and he's Albert Pujols, give it a rest.

Jake Patterson

01-11-2006, 11:55 AM

You ask the question but you don't define the age you work with either. That's the safe way, I guess.

I coach high school in northeast CT and have worked with kids ages 9-19. The clinic I run is geared toward Little League coaches. Have played through high school, Babe Ruth and in the Army (Some compare this to Division 2 or 3 ball - I don't know). I played third base and was known for my speed and fielding. After the service I played some baseball and found I was both too old to start over and not good enough to compete at a higher level. From there I played ASA Modified and stopped when I was 40. I began coaching in 1985 (Age 30) when I could no longer compete. I started at the Little League level and progressed to high school. I am a certified coach and have attended a considerable amount of professional clinics and have penned several books on coaching. I have been coaching school ball for 10 years. I do not consider myself an expert in any aspect of the game and am involved in this thread to learn. I am a Honorary Life Time Member of the Little League and hold a Masters degree in Education and am pursuing my doctorate. Now you know who I am. If you like send me an email an I will give more specifics.

Now, if you're dealing with 9-10 years olds, you do the same thing but you don't crank it up to 90. Maybe 75 or 80. I don't know what speed challenges 9-10 year olds. Don't work with them. If they are 12-14 years old I bet a few can do the drill as defined. Maybe 80-85 is a better setting.

Agree

This is pure hogwash and shows your complete lack of understanding of what goes on in high level swings. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to Mike Matheny, he turns into Albert Pujols. If you give .1 or .2 seconds to any .260 hitter he becomes an MVP candidate.

Again, it's age dependent. This thread is Hitting Instruction for YOUNG Players.

Your "need" for a resume, to verify ones hitting beliefs is a crutch.

Not to verify, but to understand one's perspective. You obviously know something about hitting. The problem I seek to address is How to Teach Young Hitters. One of the problems in teaching baseball to kids after being involved with the game for nearly 40 years is the self-proclaimed expert that leaves the kids shaking their heads in frustration. (Not accusing you of this) If your advise above comes from someone teaching HS players and college players then I have no problem. If you're teaching young kids (defined as 9-14 - elementary and middle school age), then I see a problem. If you choose not to answer the question so be it. I have no problem telling you what my resume is and what my limitations are.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 12:35 PM

I don't challege the quickness issue, I think its very important. You can wait a tick longer, buts that not all it takes to hit for a high average. I think you drank too much Nyman cool-aid with the comments you are throwing around. All Mike Matheny needs .1-.2 seconds and he's Albert Pujols, give it a rest.

You can use the quote to understand the meaning of quickness and how most (probably up to 95%) all high school players and below don't understand it, but very much need it.....

or.....

you can take the quote too literally and use it to discredit someone. That being said, if .2 doesn't make Mike Matheny the MVP it would definately make him a perennial All Star. A catcher with his defensive skills who can hit .300, hit 20 HR's or more and drive in 80+ runs is an Allstar. BTW, one of the main differences between the top hitters and the next level down is one frame of video at 30 fps. Where do you find that one frame? Strength and conditoning? Probably. Mechancis? Probably.

Your choice. I'll still keep helping young hitters. And, I'll do it without the use of the HBH which teaches the exact opposite of what their greatest problem is.

Ohfor

01-11-2006, 12:41 PM

... If your advise above comes from someone teaching HS players and college players then I have no problem. If you're teaching young kids (defined as 9-14 - elementary and middle school age), then I see a problem. If you choose not to answer the question so be it. I have no problem telling you what my resume is and what my limitations are.

I teach predominantly high school and college age players. But, I dont' see the problem with using what I suggested with young kids. The sooner these young kids understand the "how" of quickness the better off they'll be as they advance.

wogdoggy

01-11-2006, 12:56 PM

I teach predominantly high school and college age players. But, I dont' see the problem with using what I suggested with young kids. The sooner these young kids understand the "how" of quickness the better off they'll be as they advance.

Funny I use the same drill when i coached 9's 10' and 11's.I would get behind an L screen and throw very very hard to these kids.Unfortuantely when they were 9 and using 28 inch bats and 11 drops the bats dented immmediately.My kid was forced to swing quickly and decide immediately.he built up his confidence and stopped his arm swinging just to make contact.I think its a very valuable drill.And i usually cant agree with ofor about anything.lol..

Ursa Major

01-11-2006, 01:59 PM

I'll give you a drill that will make a huge difference in your players understanding. Take them to a batting cage that throws very hard (hopefully 90 but 85+ is good). ... If you're working with young hitters, 95% of them will see the ball, swing quickly, and then a few fractions of a second later the ball will come into the zone. .. They are now seeing, probably for the first time, that they ARE quick enough to hit 85+ or 90 mph. It was demonstrated for them by ASKING THEM NOT TO HIT THE BALL. Why? Because their efforts to hit the ball precludes them from being quick.Ohfor, I'll address this first, as it's the closest thing to a constructive suggestion I've seen from you for awhile. I agree that kids by age 11 usually are quicker than they think they are, particularly if they can get past the fear factor on fast pitches. My 11-year old son, who does not have a particularly quick bat, faced one of those mini-wiffle ball shooter/pitching machines ("Personal Pitcher"?) at Jim Booth's facility and surpisingly was able to get around on 'em when launched quickly at short range. And in fact we once took him to the cages and he got so cocky after jumping from the 40+ machine to the 55+ machine that he faced the 70+ machine and actually cracked a few, which boosted his confidence.
The first thing young hitters need is a better mental picture of just how quick the swing needs to be.
But, I don't think your first time hitters, or even the talented 10 year old Colton, oughta be facing any 85+ Iron Mikes anytime soon. (I assume you're willing to scale down your suggested speed for younger hitters.) If he takes one near the hands, the sting alone could end his day at the cages. It could scare him away from baseball forever. My son's 9-10 y/o coach, a former college pitcher, thought the way to introduce new kids to kid pitching (from their previous coach pitched level) was to throw hard to 'em the first practice to show 'em what they had to get around on. In fact, they never faced such hard pitching all year. But, all he did was to spook them, and several never really seemed to recover. And, of course, there's a risk that kids will cheat by starting their swing early or shortening their swing to make sure they get around.

Ohfor, could you give us some clear evidence of when you have used this technique, at what age level, and what results (both from a 'statistical' and 'kid reaction' point of view) you got from doing that? It sounds like it could be built into a training program, but I prefer the idea of using a fast wiffle machine first to get over the fear factor.

Now let's get to the areas where you really are digging yourself a hole, okay?
Originally Posted by hiddengem
Why do you think we rely so heavily on advanced scouts? We are looking for tendancies, and patterns pitchers fall into. Its impossible to cover all pitches and all locations, if you try to you'll hit for crap... You're making my point. With this "advanced" knowledge we are expecting/looking for a certain pitch in a certain area. Now, from there, we have to get a good swing on it. OR DON"T SWING.

IF we are swinging, you won't launch until you've made your decision. Still could be wrong. Sometimes we are. But, nevertheless, you don't swing before you know where you're swinging.OhFud, you're showing your lack of experience and sense here. HG will know more than I here, but maybe I can at least get at the logical flaws in your argument, which seems to be couched in terms of trying to win the dispute rather than to present objective knowledge.

The key word in HG's post was "tendencies" -- i.e., they're trying to get a little more knowledge of what the pitcher can do (speed, amount of break, etc.) and is likely to do in a given instance. Armed with this information and what he's been seeing that pitcher throw to his teammates, the batter is more likely to get a pitch with the location and timing that he's most looking for. It won't be perfect, but he's more likely to get one or two pitches in the at-bat that he'll be juiced to hit. At least if he can say at a given count, the pitcher is going to go with one of two pitches and locations, he can prepare for just those two pitches and make an early "Fastball?? No. Okay, curve ball!" assessment, sort of like a quarterback looking off a covered primary receiver and going to his secondary receiver. But, pitchers know their tendencies are being watched and are trying to throw off other teams, so you can never be assured that they'll follow those tendencies.

At release, based on pitch count and these tendencies and things like the release point, initial speed and spin, our batter may say, "Yeah, it looks like the fastball I was most expecting" and launch/start his swing (and you're looking like a pedantic a$$ by pestering HG for using the terms "launch" and "start" interchangably) with timing based on that assessment. Later, at the go/no-go point, the batter has to decide based on predicted final location and situation (count, no. of outs, runner location, etc.) if he's in good enough position to go through with the swing, or let it go. If it's a 2-0 count and he's fooled, let a strike go by, unless it's a mistake (say an inside changeup that he can pause on, then turn and rip). If it's 0-2 and a marginal pitch, he'll have to adjust to whatever and try to put it in play, even if it's a "duckfart". (Love that term.) If he's got a runner on third with less than two outs with the infield playing back, he'll take almost any kind of contact rather than go to the dugout after taking a called third strike.

While oversimpified, I think this scenario is not too far removed from what real world hitters need to go through, even armed with information, in deciding whether to take a less than optimally timed swing. It's not that the swing itself will be ugly, but that t