Josh Gibson vs Sadaharu Oh

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Gibson is sometimes credited with some 900+ HRs in his career, depending on the sources. Sadaharu Oh hit 868 HRs in his career. Whose career total is more impressive (or more legit) to you?

[Blackout]

Oh's is more legit (i think?) because we dont know Gibson's total against professional competition

But I'd say Gibson was a better home run hitter

[Brian McKenna]

gibson was great - no denying that - but 900 home runs is just some number pulled out of the air - i've heard a more realistic 250 against league competition and who knows how many barnstorming

this is no shot against gibson - but oh's league was much more organized and stats were enthusiastically kept - the the level of talent was consistently funnelled to the top - and their is a firm grasp on the talent level of his teammates and competition - i hope we get those revised negro league stats soon

[jalbright]

As a career number, Oh's performance came against more consistently high quality competition. Had both men played in the majors, I think Gibson would have been the greatest home run hitting catcher ever, but still short of 500. However, his peak would have likely been in the 40s. Oh would have hit 520 or more, but would have taken more seasons and at bats to do it. His peak would have been 35 or so, but it's questionable if he'd have gotten 40 in any one season. I really can't answer the question of the poll because there are two answers--Oh for the career, Gibson for the peak.

Jim Albright

[leecemark]

--Which was the better HR hitter depended on how you look at it. I think Jim's analysis is dead on. Oh's mark is more "impressive and legit" though. Gibson has less than 1/3 of those 900 HR recorded in league action. He might have hit 900 in various exhibitions, winter league games, etc, but that isn't quite the same thing. That is basically a wild guess at how many he hit in who knows how many games against some wildly varying quality of competition.

[538280]

Oh's is certainly more legit, but I don't think there's any question Gibson's is more impressive. I have no doubts that Oh was a tremendous hitter who would have been fantastic in MLB as well as Japan, but Gibson was a catcher. Even though most of his supposed 900+ HRs probably came in a pickup game like environment, 900 HRs is still almost three times as many HRs as any other catcher has hit. A catcher with Gibson's power is more impressive than a 1B with Oh's power.

But, I can't really vote because I am split down the middle. The poll gives two criteria (which is more legit and which is more impressive). I think Oh's was more legit, Gibson's more impressive.

[jalbright]

Discounting Oh to 520-550 homers is a discount of 40% despite the fact his seasons were often 20% shorter. If you look at the major leaguers who went to Japan in Oh's day, that is the difference in power output between the two leagues, as I have detailed. Gibson, had he played first, would likely have done better--but it is at best uncertain if he in fact would have been more valuable that way. However, as a catcher, it's very hard to see him as a 500+ homer guy for his career. I have no problem with the idea he'd have had more homers than any catcher ever--but I pause to say he would have outhit them by that much. OTOH, as I said before, Gibson would have had some years with homers in the 40s while Oh might well have never reached that level.

Jim Albright

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Hard to say which is more impressive because we don't know the actual number or day to day level of competition in Gibson's case.

Some home run numbers came from exhibition games and there were times lean pitching staffs in black baseball made necessary the use of position players, infielders, outfielders used as starting pitchers.

Do I believe that under equal circumstances Gibson would hit more than Oh, yes I do but thats not the question asked here.

Impressive a tough one as far as legit, not to diminish Josh but Oh is 100 percent legit, Josh is not. Tough stance but thats a fact.

[2Chance]

Sadaharu Oh gets props for legitimacy. Actual count, league standings, etc.

Josh Gibson was probably the most impressive, ever, regardless of the careless record keeping.

These hitters, like Babe Ruth, were men playing among boys. While their teammates changed in a locker room, hotel room or the team bus, they changed in a phone booth.

Players like this don't come along very often. You could make a case for Barry Bonds playing in their elite status; you could try to make a case for Mays or Mantle or somebody else. But if you bring up any of the first three, there will never be an argument among knowledgeable baseball fans.

[KCGHOST]

Oh's is more legitimate.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

One of the things I wanted to explore is Sadaharu's place amongst the greatest first basemen in baseball history. Oh is easily one of the 10 greatest first basemen. A lot of peple have no problem ranking Sathel Paige, Josh Gibson, and Oscar Charleston amongst the greatest players at their positions so why not Oh?

[jalbright]

There are only three major league or Negro League guys from 1900 on that I'd put in front of Oh: Gehrig, Foxx and Mize. There are three guys from the 19th century who might slip in front of Oh: Anson, Roger Connor, and Dan Brouthers.

Jim Albright

[Let Shoeless In]

As a career number, Oh's performance came against more consistently high quality competition. Had both men played in the majors, I think Gibson would have been the greatest home run hitting catcher ever, but still short of 500. However, his peak would have likely been in the 40s. Oh would have hit 520 or more, but would have taken more seasons and at bats to do it. His peak would have been 35 or so, but it's questionable if he'd have gotten 40 in any one season. I really can't answer the question of the poll because there are two answers--Oh for the career, Gibson for the peak.

Jim Albright
I have to argue that the talent is suspect in Japan. Yet Oh's record is legit-in Japan. Gibson's HR's is great for baseball lore. Rich history and the indulged stories from the Negro Leaguers makes Josh a real folk tale hero.....

[Brian McKenna]

I have to argue that the talent is suspect in Japan. Yet Oh's record is legit-in Japan. Gibson's HR's is great for baseball lore. Rich history and the indulged stories from the Negro Leaguers makes Josh a real folk tale hero.....

you make josh gibson sound like some sort of cartoon paul bunyun - the term "Rich history and the indulged stories" can be applied to the majors as well - and could be said of babe ruth but i've never heard ruth referred to as a "a real folk tale hero" - i don't think you meant anything by it but it sounds demeaning to gibson

i don't think mr. albright has ever said that the talent in the NPB, at least after the league was fully established by the mid-1950s, - was "suspect" - in fact he is saying it is indeed legitimate - though - the u.s. majors is and have always been the top tier as far as quality goes

[Brian McKenna]

One of the things I wanted to explore is Sadagaru's place amongst the greatest first basemen in baseball history. Oh is easily one of the 10 greatest first basemen. A lot of peple have no problem ranking Sathel Paige, Josh Gibson, and Oscar Charleston amongst the greatest players at their positions so why not Oh?

this is a good point and many have simply ignored NPB players but will tout latin ballplayers who played most of their career abroad because - i don't know - they played in the states at some point and they lived in this hemisphere

[Let Shoeless In]

you make josh gibson sound like some sort of cartoon paul bunyun - the term "Rich history and the indulged stories" can be applied to the majors as well - and could be said of babe ruth but i've never heard ruth referred to as a "a real folk tale hero" - i don't think you meant anything by it but it sounds demeaning to gibson
that is exactly how i feel about gibson-almost as if he was a cartoon paul bunyun. i am in no way denying his place in any baseball history. he was the 1st played that i ever did a report on is elementary school. but, the sad fact is, with all the barnstorming, unorganiztion in the negro leagues adn herky jerky score keeping. i really feel as if gibson has been lifted higher than he ever really was. although, i want you to know, i never said he didnt deserve it, i wouldnt pass that jusgement on him. i just want to air my 2 cents on the ballplayer.

[four tool]

The problem with evaluating Josh is the lack of full stats. If he hit 900 HR that number includes Negro, Cuban and Mexican leagues and exhibitions--what are Ruth's totals if barnstorming and exhibitions are included?

That said, I go with Oh because we have more legitimate stats. That Josh was extremely talented is not denied--but Cesar Cedeno was talented even though he did not produce as expected at the major league level. So how do we evaluate Josh? How do we know how he would have performed in the majors? Or even at triple A?

[Bench 5]

The new book "Shadows of Glory" contains an up to date list of Negro League stats after years of research. It credits Gibson with 115 homers from 1930 through 1946. His season high was 13. He had 1,855 AB, 666 H, 432 RBI, 255 W, .359 BA, and .648 SA. Converted to a 162 game season he averaged:

AB - 589
H - 212
2B - 35
3B - 13
HR - 37
BB - 81
R - 148
RBI - 137
TB - 382
BA - .359
SA - 648
OBA - .436

[four tool]

The sample size comes out to about 3.14 years worth of ABs, unfortunately not enough to project into a major league career.

[yanks0714]

The new book "Shadows of Glory" contains an up to date list of Negro League stats after years of research. It credits Gibson with 115 homers from 1930 through 1946. His season high was 13. He had 1,855 AB, 666 H, 432 RBI, 255 W, .359 BA, and .648 SA. Converted to a 162 game season he averaged:

AB - 589
H - 212
2B - 35
3B - 13
HR - 37
BB - 81
R - 148
RBI - 137
TB - 382
BA - .359
SA - 648
OBA - .436

Now this is something I can look at objectively. If the actual numbers are to be believed, we can, as had been done above correlate them to a 162 game schedule. I will admit the sample size is rather small but I think it gives us basic, not ideal, figures to work with.

Those figures are based on Josh's hitting against somewhat suspect NeL pitching. So a league quality adjument needs to be made. How much? Not sure if anyone has ever calculated this. 5% seems too low. 20% perhaps too high. As a compromise, for this purpose, let's say approximately 12 or 13 percent.

Even with this adjustment it appears that Josh Gibson would be one of best hitting catchers to ever play the game, ranking right with, if not ahead, of Bench, Berra, Campanella, IRod, and Piazza.

I think this gives us a better overall picture of Josh Gibson's actual performance, rather than the largely romanticized exaggeration of 900 HRs he hit.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Now this is something I can look at objectively. If the actual numbers are to be believed, we can, as had been done above correlate them to a 162 game schedule. I will admit the sample size is rather small but I think it gives us basic, not ideal, figures to work with.

Those figures are based on Josh's hitting against somewhat suspect NeL pitching. So a league quality adjument needs to be made. How much? Not sure if anyone has ever calculated this. 5% seems too low. 20% perhaps too high. As a compromise, for this purpose, let's say approximately 12 or 13 percent.

Even with this adjustment it appears that Josh Gibson would be one of best hitting catchers to ever play the game, ranking right with, if not ahead, of Bench, Berra, Campanella, IRod, and Piazza.

I think this gives us a better overall picture of Josh Gibson's actual performance, rather than the largely romanticized exaggeration of 900 HRs he hit.

...and yet 44.44% (12/27) voted for Gibson instead of Oh, even though we all agree that Oh's accomplishment camed in much stronger and better organized leagues. Makes no sense. :(

[jalbright]

A good thread about Josh Gibson is at Baseball Think Factory here: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/josh_gibson

Of particular note are posts 61 and 94, which take his Negro League stats and convert them to a major league equivalent (61) and win shares (94).
There's plenty of discussion of those conversions and how good they are.

Jim Albright

[couch]

Gibson is sometimes credited with some 900+ HRs in his career, depending on the sources. Sadaharu Oh hit 868 HRs in his career. Whose career total is more impressive (or more legit) to you?
josh gibson is more impressive to me

[couch]

josh gibson's home run recors is more impressive to me

[four tool]

Josh's numbers are inflated, the best negro league stats have him hitting about 43/550 AB at most--impressive--but on under 3,000 AB- look at Foxx or Ted Williams or Oh at their peaks for a comparison. Some sources even have Josh at under 2000 AB for his entire NeL career

Oh is much more impressive IMHO

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Josh's numbers are inflated, the best negro league stats have him hitting about 43/550 AB at most--impressive--but on under 3,000 AB- look at Foxx or Ted Williams or Oh at their peaks for a comparison. Some sources even have Josh at under 2000 AB for his entire NeL career

Oh is much more impressive IMHO
There's one problem with the 43/500 AB ratio. Even if that is accurate, Josh did this in mostly playing short season, 50-80 game seasons. He didn't have the disadvantage of having to catch a full 154 game season. He never wore down and had his numbers reduced. Imagine if Mike Piazza only played 50-80 game seasons. I'm sure his HR/AB ratio would be much higher as well.

[yanks0714]

There's one problem with the 43/500 AB ratio. Even if that is accurate, Josh did this in mostly playing short season, 50-80 game seasons. He didn't have the disadvantage of having to catch a full 154 game season. He never wore down and had his numbers reduced. Imagine if Mike Piazza only played 50-80 game seasons. I'm sure his HR/AB ratio would be much higher as well.

But didn't Josh Gibson pretty much play year round as did many NeL players? That would have had a sense of wearing him down a bit.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

But didn't Josh Gibson pretty much play year round as did many NeL players? That would have had a sense of wearing him down a bit.

Playing "pickup" games against local teams and semi-pro teams is NOT the same as playing 162 major league games. Plus we don't really know how many "real" games Josh played.

[jalbright]

Playing "pickup" games against local teams and semi-pro teams is NOT the same as playing 162 major league games. Plus we don't really know how many "real" games Josh played.

How much difference in physical wear and tear is there between playing 162 major league games a year, riding good trains and staying in good hotels and making enough money you don't have to play the rest of the year unless you want to versus playing 80-90 Negro League games plus 20-30 winter league games plus another 80-100 games against players of varying qualities, all while riding in broken-down buses or the worst train cars and rarely staying in anything better than a moderate quality hotel and often sleeping in a bus, not to mention the fact the white boys didn't have much difficulty in finding a place to be served a meal. Negro Leaguers often played three games a day on weekends, with travel in between, never showering until after the last game. Don't you think those conditions exacted a physical toll above and beyond what the white boys experienced? Yeah, when the Negro Leaguers got lesser competition, they probably scaled it back a little--but the wear and tear of baseball is mostly that of a marathon anyway--and nobody else had to run a marathon over the kind of terrain the Negro Leaguers did.

Beyond that, whenever Josh caught against those "lesser opponents", what about the quality of opposition lessens the wear and tear of squatting to catch on the knees and back? Do foul balls into the "tools of ignorance" hurt less because they come from lesser opponents? When we're talking wear and tear, I think the Negro Leaguers had it rougher than their white brethren. When we talk about quality of opponent, that's a very different story.

Jim Albright

[Honus Wagner Rules]

How much difference in physical wear and tear is there between playing 162 major league games a year, riding good trains and staying in good hotels and making enough money you don't have to play the rest of the year unless you want to versus playing 80-90 Negro League games plus 20-30 winter league games plus another 80-100 games against players of varying qualities, all while riding in broken-down buses or the worst train cars and rarely staying in anything better than a moderate quality hotel and often sleeping in a bus, not to mention the fact the white boys didn't have much difficulty in finding a place to be served a meal. Negro Leaguers often played three games a day on weekends, with travel in between, never showering until after the last game. Don't you think those conditions exacted a physical toll above and beyond what the white boys experienced? Yeah, when the Negro Leaguers got lesser competition, they probably scaled it back a little--but the wear and tear of baseball is mostly that of a marathon anyway--and nobody else had to run a marathon over the kind of terrain the Negro Leaguers did.

Beyond that, whenever Josh caught against those "lesser opponents", what about the quality of opposition lessens the wear and tear of squatting to catch on the knees and back? Do foul balls into the "tools of ignorance" hurt less because they come from lesser opponents? When we're talking wear and tear, I think the Negro Leaguers had it rougher than their white brethren. When we talk about quality of opponent, that's a very different story.

Jim Albright
Jim,

You make it sound like John played 200 games every year and caught nine innings every game. We have over 120 years of evidence as to what happens to catchers that play a huge number of innings. They decline rapidly. There seems to be some sort of idea that somehow John was immune to that. That he was superhuman and never wore down ever. Of all those games he played how many times did he play the whole game? How many times did he play 4-5 innings then was pulled out? I know that often Satchel Paige would be billed as the starting pitcher then he's pitch like 2 innings then get pulled so ho could pitch as many games as he coud and be the top billing.

Playing two games and catching four innings in one game and catching five innings in the other is not the same as catching nine innings in one game. They are the same amount of innings but have much different effects on the body.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Everyone has an opinion but it's hard to go with Josh when there is so little in the way of accurate stats, level of competition day to day especially the pitching, some numbers from exhibition games. We know what Oh did, we have the stats and the level of competition he faced.

[jalbright]

Jim,

You make it sound like John played 200 games every year and caught nine innings every game. We have over 120 years of evidence as to what happens to catchers that play a huge number of innings. They decline rapidly. There seems to be some sort of idea that somehow John was immune to that. That he was superhuman and never wore down ever. Of all those games he played how many times did he play the whole game? How many times did he play 4-5 innings then was pulled out? I know that often Satchel Paige would be billed as the starting pitcher then he's pitch like 2 innings then get pulled so ho could pitch as many games as he coud and be the top billing.

Playing two games and catching four innings in one game and catching five innings in the other is not the same as catching nine innings in one game. They are the same amount of innings but have much different effects on the body.

I'm sure he didn't catch every inning--but I'd bet he played darn near every game (he was a crowd drawer, and those guys played because the teams had to deliver a lot of what was advertised or they couldn't stay in business) and probably the full nine innings in 90% of those games given that Negro League teams often only carried 13-14 players, which included an extra catcher and at least 3 pitchers. My point is that you can't discount the wearying effect of the marathon because of the quality of opposition, especially given the other difficulties the Negro Leaguers faced.

Besides, the leagues scheduled on weekends to draw crowds--and guess what days were the most popular for barnstorming contests? The weekends as well. So he'd catch the league game and catch at least 3-4 innings of a barnstorming game and stay in the field the rest of the time. I'd say Gibson caught as many innings as his major league peers (who rarely played much more than 130 games anyway) and then added a lot more innings in the field than those peers, doing all that under significantly more difficult conditions.

Jim Albright

[Imapotato]

Gibson played alot of his games in fields no bigger then your local independent baseball field
Most of us could hit a HR in those parks

He IS Paul Bunyan

I put Oh as the 2nd greatest 1b that ever played, yes ahead of Jimmie Foxx, who wasted so much talent

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'm sure he didn't catch every inning--but I'd bet he played darn near every game (he was a crowd drawer, and those guys played because the teams had to deliver a lot of what was advertised or they couldn't stay in business) and probably the full nine innings in 90% of those games given that Negro League teams often only carried 13-14 players, which included an extra catcher and at least 3 pitchers. My point is that you can't discount the wearying effect of the marathon because of the quality of opposition, especially given the other difficulties the Negro Leaguers faced.

Besides, the leagues scheduled on weekends to draw crowds--and guess what days were the most popular for barnstorming contests? The weekends as well. So he'd catch the league game and catch at least 3-4 innings of a barnstorming game and stay in the field the rest of the time. I'd say Gibson caught as many innings as his major league peers (who rarely played much more than 130 games anyway) and then added a lot more innings in the field than those peers, doing all that under significantly more difficult conditions.

Jim Albright

Jim,

I'm curious what other postions did Gibson play? First base? Left Field?

[jalbright]

Jim,

I'm curious what other postions did Gibson play? First base? Left Field?

Riley's book says outfield, first base and third base. I'm sure center wasn't in the mix, but after that, I don't know.

Jim Albright

[Dodger]

I've never seen any documentation that Gibson hit anywhere close to 900 HRs, it seems to be more myth than anything.

Negro Leagues 141
Post Season 7
Latin America 79
vs. White Major Leaguers 5
Denver Post League 4

Total 236

Does anybody have any credible numbers for the other 600+ alleged Gibson home runs and what caliber of competiton they were hit against?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

--what are Ruth's totals if barnstorming and exhibitions are included?


Tough to say for certain, I don't think it's ever been fully documented, or ever could be calculated. As a safe guess, I would say easily over 1,000.

After '27, him and Lou went Barnstorming for two weeks, traveled more than 8,000 miles and stopped in 16 cities. "Luckiest Man" doesn't mention exactly how many games they played, but Christy Walsh was along for the trip, he was a very careful accountant.

According to him, on the trip, Ruth and Gehrig played in front of roughly 200,000 fans, and signed close to 10,000 autographs. He kept track and calculated that Babe hit .616 with 20 homers, and Gehrig hit .618 with 13 homers on the trip. Ruth had earned about $30,000 and Gehrig's take was $10,000.

These were the sorts of barnstorming games where Ruth and Gehrig would "join up" with other players of various skill levels and play against established Negro League teams who really looked forward to the opportunity. It didn't matter that the NLers had more to play for, or that they were often playing against lower quality opponents, the fact is, they held their own and then some. It went a long way in proving people wrong when they held the belief that blacks were simply inferior.

For the thread question, I agree with most everyone else on Oh's being more impressive. Taking nothing away from Gibson.

[secondbase1961]

Gibson had 900 HR'S, just like Mantle hit 585 ft + HR'S..all BS!

[secondbase1961]

Gibson"s 900+ hr's are about the same as Mantle's 585 ft + hr's..rediculas!:

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Playing "pickup" games against local teams and semi-pro teams is NOT the same as playing 162 major league games. Plus we don't really know how many "real" games Josh played.

That says a lot. This is one of the big reasons we can't be sure of some of the numbers put up by Josh. Not only is info on his numbers scant but we have no way of knowing how many were attained playing exhibition games, some against local teams.

[hbinways]

gibson is more legit and he was better. not even close.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

gibson is more legit and he was better. not even close.
So consider Gibson's supposed 900+ HRs, of which sufficient evidence is lacking, to be more legit than Oh's 868 HRs in the Japanese Leagues? The Japanese Leagues were far more structured and playing a higher quality of ball.

[four tool]

gibson is more legit and he was better. not even close.

Good joke saying Josh is legit when there is no evidence:-)

[Mischa]

So consider Gibson's supposed 900+ HRs, of which sufficient evidence is lacking, to be more legit than Oh's 868 HRs in the Japanese Leagues? The Japanese Leagues were far more structured and playing a higher quality of ball.

I agree that Japan is more strucutred, but I don't buy the claim that the quality is higher. A marginal Negro Leaguer like Jimmy Newberry did just fine in Japan, for instance. Lots of Negro League stars became stars in MLB and some players like Campanella and Jackie Robinson went from being stars in the Negro Leagues to superstars in MLB. No one has gone from being an NPB star to a MLB superstar and some NPB stars have fallen flat in the majors. While the Negro Leagues were less structured, I would give them the talent edge.

When it comes to which homer total were more legitimate, I'd say Oh's. But when it comes to who was a better home run hitter, I think it's questionable. Gibson had amazing rates like Oh, while playing in some large parks. Both were darned good hitters, drawing walks at very impressive paces. For total peak value, I'd pick Gibson based on positional adjustments. For career value, Oh played much longer and that gives him an edge. It all depends which question you're asking.

[Brian McKenna]

there are a couple big differences between nippon professional baseball and the negro leagues:
1) organization - the negro leagues played whomever, wherever - the formal league was almost a sideline - it is not what they lived for - they took contests all over and against anyone - hence:
2) the quality of competition was up in the air - ESPECIALLY pitching - if gibson did hit 900 home runs, who were they against? joe blow semi-pro? - the point is we don't know

no doubt gibson was a force - unfortunately he and 100s of others were forced to play on the periphery - through no fault of their own - however facts are facts and for consistent pitching the nod goes to npb

if you think a representative sample of japanese ballplayers has (or even wants to) play 1000s of miles from home in the u.s. - you're off base - japanese ballplayers are contractually bound to their teams through much, if not all, of their prime - on the other hand it was a natural progression for african-american males to enter the minor leagues in their own country from the negro leagues - they did so in droves - OF COURSE they were better represented in the majors and some shined brighter - the first japanese position player came to the majors in 2001, negro league player in 1947 - notice a difference?

the world is vast - if the wbc taught us one thing it is that quality baseball is played throughout the world - the majors are not the end-all - giving the talent edge to a group of americans over a group of japanese is an ethnocentric statement which probably has less to do with the actual players than familiarity with such

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I agree that Japan is more strucutred, but I don't buy the claim that the quality is higher. A marginal Negro Leaguer like Jimmy Newberry did just fine in Japan, for instance. Lots of Negro League stars became stars in MLB and some players like Campanella and Jackie Robinson went from being stars in the Negro Leagues to superstars in MLB. No one has gone from being an NPB star to a MLB superstar and some NPB stars have fallen flat in the majors. While the Negro Leagues were less structured, I would give them the talent edge.
Your baseball history is incorrect. Please name Negro League "stars" that became major league stars? By Negro League "stars" I mean established Negro League players that played a minimum of five seasons in the Negro Leagues. Jackie Robinson was NOT a Negro League "star" having played only season in the Negro Leagues (1945).And he played about 49 games in 1945. So that hardly makes him a Negro League "star".

[Blackout]

Your baseball history is incorrect. Please name Negro League "stars" that became major league stars? By Negro League "stars" I mean established Negro League players that played a minimum of five seasons in the Negro Leagues. Jackie Robinson was NOT a Negro League "star" having played only season in the Negro Leagues (1945).And he played about 49 games in 1945. So that hardly makes him a Negro League "star".

Satchell Paige count?

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Satchell Paige count?

His ML totals aren't impressive, but given that he was like 70 years old, not too shabby.

Didn't he say that he threw 50-something no hitters and more than 300 shutouts in the Negro National Leagues? Assuming he's only exaggerating slightly, it speaks to the level of hitters he was facing. Probably the local blacksmith and local farmboys. Taking nothing away from his ability, I'm sure Satchel was an absolute stud, but these NNL numbers just can't be taken at face value.

Just found this-- apparently in 1933 when he went 31-4 for the Crawfords, he threw 64 consecutive scoreless innings and also had 21 straight wins. Nice numbers eh?

[Brian McKenna]

i'm having a little difficulty with this recent trend of abbreviating the negro leagues as NL - that is the traditional abbreviation of national league - the term negro leagues is a phrase often used to denote all of black baseball - it is not a formal league and shouldn't warrant a specific abbreviation - the leagues had names like negro national league - NNL

[Sultan_1895-1948]

How's that look.

[Brian McKenna]

sorry - that's not what i meant - i just read NL as national league - the phase negro leagues is often used to refer to all of black baseball - the official leagues and barnstorming and even games played outside the country - i've seen NgL for negro leagues

Negro Major Leagues
1920-31 Negro National League
1923-28 Eastern Colored League
1929 American Negro League
1932 East-West League
1932 Negro Southern League
1933-48 Negro National League
1937-60 Negro American League

[Sultan_1895-1948]

sorry - that's not what i meant - i just read NL as national league - the phase negro leagues is often used to refer to all of black baseball - the official leagues and barnstorming and even games played outside the country - i've seen NgL for negro leagues

Negro Major Leagues
1920-31 Negro National League
1923-28 Eastern Colored League
1929 American Negro League
1932 East-West League
1932 Negro Southern League
1933-48 Negro National League
1937-60 Negro American League

I get what you mean. From now on, I'll use NgL's so as not to confuse or offend the reader. "Eastern Colored League," seems that's pretty offensive ain't it?

I just wish there was more info available, so those who want to become more educated about the NgL's can be. I can't even find a complete roster, for even the most famous of all the teams, let alone the other ones. Just hard to learn about those leagues, ya know.

[leecemark]

--Since the people who ran the league (mostly Afro-Americans I'm sure) choose the name "Eastern Colored league" I doubt it was considered offensive then. Times change and the meaning of words change.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

--Since the people who ran the league (mostly Afro-Americans I'm sure) choose the name "Eastern Colored league" I doubt it was considered offensive then. Times change and the meaning of words change.

"People of color" is fine, but "colored" is not. Gotcha.

[Brian McKenna]

I just wish there was more info available, so those who want to become more educated about the NgL's can be. I can't even find a complete roster, for even the most famous of all the teams, let alone the other ones. Just hard to learn about those leagues, ya know.

there is actually a lot of info out there but you're right it would be great to have a nice definitive (even if incomplete) encyclopedia in the mold of total baseball or the like

[Mischa]

if you think a representative sample of japanese ballplayers has (or even wants to) play 1000s of miles from home in the u.s. - you're off base - japanese ballplayers are contractually bound to their teams through much, if not all, of their prime


I don't think that at all. I'm looking at the stats of guys who switch countries like Petagine, Rhodes, Cabrera, Stuart, Spencer, Greenwell, Deer, Doby, Reggie Smith, Jack Bloomfield, Bobby Rose, etc. - the good and bad - and lots of marginal major leaguers excel in Japan while some Japanese stars still in their primes have struggled in the USA. Jim Albright's MLEs show Japan to be between AAA and MLB, which sounds right to me.


- on the other hand it was a natural progression for african-american males to enter the minor leagues in their own country from the negro leagues - they did so in droves - OF COURSE they were better represented in the majors and some shined brighter - the first japanese position player came to the majors in 2001, negro league player in 1947 - notice a difference?


Other than the chronology, no. Lots of Negro Leaguers like Monte Irvin were past their prime and still did great jobs in the majors. Past-their-prime Japanese players like Norihiro Nakamura have not.


the world is vast - if the wbc taught us one thing it is that quality baseball is played throughout the world - the majors are not the end-all - giving the talent edge to a group of americans over a group of japanese is an ethnocentric statement which probably has less to do with the actual players than familiarity with such

You're arguing against a strawman here, or at least not arguing against what I said.

[Mischa]

Your baseball history is incorrect. Please name Negro League "stars" that became major league stars?


Roy Campanella, Monte Irvin and Larry Doby come to mind.


By Negro League "stars" I mean established Negro League players that played a minimum of five seasons in the Negro Leagues. Jackie Robinson was NOT a Negro League "star" having played only season in the Negro Leagues (1945).And he played about 49 games in 1945. So that hardly makes him a Negro League "star".

He made the All-Star team in 1945 and was among the league leaders in homers and doubles. 49 games was a good chunk of a NAL season, as teams played about 60-75 games. Are you arguing that MLB's first crack at integration would be with a non-star?

[Mischa]

I get what you mean. From now on, I'll use NgL's so as not to confuse or offend the reader. "Eastern Colored League," seems that's pretty offensive ain't it?

I just wish there was more info available, so those who want to become more educated about the NgL's can be. I can't even find a complete roster, for even the most famous of all the teams, let alone the other ones. Just hard to learn about those leagues, ya know.

John Holway's Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues lists fairly complete rosters (minus a couple bench guys) for almost every Negro League team. The only statistics he provides for most players, though, are batting average or W-L record. Some Negro League seasons have fairly complete data, like the 1923 Negro National League, thanks to Patrick Rock's fine research work.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Roy Campanella, Monte Irvin and Larry Doby come to mind.
Doby was barely 23 years old when he debuted for the the Indians in 1947 and he only hit .151.


He made the All-Star team in 1945 and was among the league leaders in homers and doubles. 49 games was a good chunk of a NAL season, as teams played about 60-75 games. Are you arguing that MLB's first crack at integration would be with a non-star?
Funny how most of the Negro league insiders at that time considered Jackie the wrong choice since he wasn't an established Negro League star.

[Gee Walker]

Your baseball history is incorrect. Please name Negro League "stars" that became major league stars? By Negro League "stars" I mean established Negro League players that played a minimum of five seasons in the Negro Leagues. Jackie Robinson was NOT a Negro League "star" having played only season in the Negro Leagues (1945).And he played about 49 games in 1945. So that hardly makes him a Negro League "star".

It's not as if the floodgates suddenly opened in 1947, and all of the Negro League players were in a draft pool. You've got two simultaneous problems occurring here. First of all, there was this thing called World War II. It killed more baseball careers in the bud than any other event of the last century - look at the lack of Hall of Famers whose careers overlap that era. Did white guys play lousy baseball in the forties? No, because Cecil Travis and Barney McCosky and Dick Wakefield and Al Rosen and Charlie Keller all had big chunks of their careers eaten away... I remember complaints about Hank Greenberg's "lack of qualifications for the Hall" when he was elected...

Since five years experience prior to 1947 would have included the years when virtually all young players were drafted, there was a very thin talent pool of players who had five years or more experience... in either the majors or the Negro Leagues. This effect carried on until the early fifties...

Plus, the second whammy - the major leagues were very reluctant to bring in any Negro League players who were over about 28 years old. The three most glaring examples include Monte Irvin, Luke Easter, and most inexplicably, Ray Dandridge. During a time when George Kell was the dominant third baseman in either league (essentially after the war and before Eddie Matthews), no team wanted someone who essentially was Kirby Puckett turned into a third baseman... The brief careers of Easter and Irvin, both 35-year old rookies when they finally got their chance, are awesome. I'll take Luke Easter after age 35 over Mantle, Gehrig (not fair, I know), Foxx, Mize, McCovey, Greenberg, Eddie Murray, Cepeda, Perez, or just about any other first baseman in the Hall of Fame.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Bill and I have had this discussion before.

A good question. I do not understand why people can so easily rank Paige and Gobson so high but do not rank Sadaharu Oh at all?

Lack of familiarity. People had heard the legends of Paige/Gibson since the 30's. Much, much less so for Sadaharu Oh. It's that simple.

With the Internet that is no reason anymore to not know anything about Sadaharu Oh. Oh is still alive today. There is film and video of Oh. There are many Japanese ballplayers and major leaguers who played against Oh who are still alive and who have commented on Oh as a ballplayer. We have the full statistical record of Oh readily available. His chase of Hank Aaron's 755 career HR record was considered such news that Oh was on the COVER of Sports Illustrated in 1977. I would argue that there is far more information and statistics and first hand account of still living people of Sadaharu than any Negro Leaguer.

I think part of reason Negro Leaguers get more love here at BBF is because they played a long time ago and are seen as "old school". There is very little in terms of film, photos, and people still alive who saw them play. Mostly, we have these old grainy black and white photos of these great Negro League ballplayers. Because of this we can imprint on them our our image of what kind of ballplayer they were. We can simply imagine Josh Gibson hitting a ball out of Yankee Stadium (even though there is no evidence for this HR ever being hit) and infer from that that Gibson could have hit 50-60 HRs in the majors had he had an opportunity to play in the major leagues. But we can't do that with Sadaharu Oh. He's too recent, he's too modern, too "human" for us to imagine him hitting lots of HRs in the majors. We see Negro Leaguers as "black and white" and we see Sadaharu Oh in "color".

[jalbright]

Lord knows, I've tried to increase the knowledge of Sadaharu Oh, but I think a factor that cannot be ignored is that with the passage of time, the Negro Leagues have been given their due as containing a goodly number of great players. The Negro Leaguers had lots of immediate success. The Japanese, while hardly embarrassing themselves, have not had the same degree of success, Ichiro notwithstanding. There's also the misunderstandings that go with minor league stars becoming stars in Japan, which did not happen with the Negro Leagues. Also, the Japanese are still limited in when they can come, and most come once they have passed age 30, which has an impact on how well they do when they arrive in the majors. There's a number of things to cloud the view of NPB players and thus Oh, and combine that with a degree of ignorance of the man's accomplishments, it's easy for many to dismiss him.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Lord knows, I've tried to increase the knowledge of Sadaharu Oh, but I think a factor that cannot be ignored is that with the passage of time, the Negro Leagues have been given their due as containing a goodly number of great players. The Negro Leaguers had lots of immediate success. The Japanese, while hardly embarrassing themselves, have not had the same degree of success, Ichiro notwithstanding. There's also the misunderstandings that go with minor league stars becoming stars in Japan, which did not happen with the Negro Leagues. Also, the Japanese are still limited in when they can come, and most come once they have passed age 30, which has an impact on how well they do when they arrive in the majors. There's a number of things to cloud the view of NPB players and thus Oh, and combine that with a degree of ignorance of the man's accomplishments, it's easy for many to dismiss him.

I think this is a major issue that doesn't get discussed enough. In past threads when we talk about the Negro Leaguers that entered the majors after I've made the argument that no established star Negro Leaguer became a star player in the majors other than Roy Campanella. By "established" I mean a veteran Negro Leaguer that was was developed in the Negro Leagues and played a substantial amount of games of their prime ages in the Negro Leagues. But even Campanella debuted in the majors at age 26. As I said before I do not consider Jackie Robinson, Hank Aaron, and Willie Mays to be "Negro Leaguers" in the sense that the Negro Leagues didn't develop these players. Aaron and Mays debuted in the majors at age 20 and Jackie played 47 games in one Negro League season in 1945. I strongly believe that had Aaron and Mays been forced to toil in the Negro Leagues for 9-10 years and then entered the majors at say age 29-31 they would not have had the same success as they actually did. This is what happens to the Japanese players that come over today. They play 8-10 years in the NPB and they hone their baseball skills to play NPB style baseball. It is very difficult to change at age 30. Had a Hideki Matsui entered the minor leagues at age 18-19 I believe he would have been a better player in the majors because he would have faced major league pitching at a much younger age and would have been forced to adapt his hitting skill.

[jalbright]

I'd call Doby, Irvin and Minoso fairly well established as stars in the Negro Leagues (they were in the Negro League all-star game several times each) before they went to the majors, and even Irvin had 3-4 strong years before injuring his ankle.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I'd call Doby, Irvin and Minoso fairly well established as stars in the Negro Leagues (they were in the Negro League all-star game several times each) before they went to the majors, and even Irvin had 3-4 strong years before injuring his ankle.

Doby and Minoso are on the bubble for me. Both debuted in the majors at the young age of 23 so they both had plenty of development years ahead of them. But you are right about Irvin, he was one of the better players in the NL for a few years and he didn't enter the majors until he was 30.