My generation sucks

[55 chmps]

Now, I'm not one to complain, or anything like that, but it's really hard to be 14 yearz old and have an infatuation with the Brooklyn Dodgers when no one knows that there was baseball in Brooklyn. Now I would lyk to know, this is directed to the younger people, if any one has this problem and I'd like to discuss it with you. Thanx a bunch

[runningshoes]

That's ok. The Dodgers need a guy like you around to keep the team alive. Your at an age where you can become a leading authority on the team's history and carry on the legacy of the folks here.

[56 chmps]

Tell me about it considering ur my cousin and we r the only 2 people who are 14 and know something about baseball history its get old when we have to go to our relatives to talk to them about baseball and we still no more :laugh so yes i agree our generation does SUC!!!!!!:p

[Gotham]

It is sad. I am not picking on the posters here, but your spelling is atrocious. I think E-Mail is hurting our kids more than we knew.

[Elvis]

He spelled Brooklyn right. Thatz al thet cownts.

[runningshoes]

It is sad. I am not picking on the posters here, but your spelling is atrocious. I think E-Mail is hurting our kids more than we knew.

They know how to spell. That's the way kids write these days. They're creating their own grammar. :D

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

They know how to spell. That's the way kids write these days. They're creating their own grammar. :D

It is the same in Dutch. Children use abreviations in normal language, that they use with MSN or SMS as well. IMO it is a devaluation of your language. :grouchy

But nevertheless I think it is a good thing that a 14 year old loves the Brooklyn Dodgers. :clapping

[donzblock]

They know how to spell. That's the way kids write these days. They're creating their own grammar. :D
No, they do not know how to spell. As for "creating their own grammar," that is a euphemism for "being ungrammatical." And the title of this thread reminds me of the Japanese version of an ad for an American vacuum cleaner: "Nothing sux like Electrolux."

Should a 14-year-old be overly concerned about the fact that it is difficult for him to be infatuated with the Brooklyn Dodgers? Since 55 chmps clearly understands his predicament, he should be able to deal with his pain painlessly. I suspect he will be able to indulge himself even if he does not know anybody who shares his interests. I collect hardcovers published by Ballantine from 1952 to 1961. There is only one other person in this universe with a similar affliction, and he does not like to talk about it. In addition, this hobby is quite dangerous; two other Ballantine collectors I knew died young. Nevertheless, my enthusiasm remains at fever pitch.

[Gotham]

In addition, this hobby is quite dangerous; two other Ballantine collectors I knew died young. Nevertheless, my enthusiasm remains at fever pitch.[/QUOTE]


This reminds me of the Curse of the Mummies Tomb. Which, come to think of it, might be a Ballantine title itself. Maybe the old books are producing a killer spore!! Burn your books, quickly!!!!!

[56 chmps]

It is sad. I am not picking on the posters here, but your spelling is atrocious. I think E-Mail is hurting our kids more than we knew.

O i m soooooo sry 4 u Gotham. I will type bttr just 4 u bud. But u missd the pnt of the thread:clapping . Thats a dam shame.

[chiefpaddy]

55 chmps. Every movement starts with one or two people. Get yourself a Brooklyn Dodger cap and shirt, start wearing them, people start asking questions and there you go. One of the great things about baseball is it's history,and the Brooklyn Dodgers are part of that great history.

[Bluesteve32]

It is sad. I am not picking on the posters here, but your spelling is atrocious. I think E-Mail is hurting our kids more than we knew.

I have noticed that many of the younger people have a tendacy to use chatroom spelling on the message boards. Some of the "kidz" don't understand the proper etiquette. Cut them a break as most kids wou't even see movies made before they were born, much less black and white movies. I have kids about 10 year ago who never heard of John Wayne. :ughh

[Gotham]

O i m soooooo sry 4 u Gotham. I will type bttr just 4 u bud. But u missd the pnt of the thread:clapping . Thats a dam shame.



Great, a smart mouthed kid. How refreshing.

[55 chmps]

55 chmps. Every movement starts with one or two people. Get yourself a Brooklyn Dodger cap and shirt, start wearing them, people start asking questions and there you go. One of the great things about baseball is it's history,and the Brooklyn Dodgers are part of that great history.

I mean that's a good idea chiefpaddy, but the problem is no one gives a damn if you have a Brooklyn emblem on your shirt or hat. The only question I do get about my Dodger stuff is usually from Yankee fans and it's usually "Is that a Red Sox hat?" They don't know anything about this stuff. That's what i'm tryin to get across.

[Bluesteve32]

O i m soooooo sry 4 u Gotham. I will type bttr just 4 u bud. But u missd the pnt of the thread:clapping . Thats a dam shame.

Perhaps, but when you don't use the King's English, your credibility is compromised.

I am glad you guys are understanding the nostalgia and history of the game and the Brooklyn Dodgers. However, you must understand that many expect the proper (a spelling or typo here and there is understandable) English is the norm. We have several younger posters that hold their own, but they post in standard English.

Don't be scared off by some, good luck in learning about the past of this wonderful game.

[Elvis]

They know how to spell, otherwise, the hard words would've been misspelled, not the easy ones.

I think some of you have forgotten what it was like being 15.

[chiefpaddy]

I mean that's a good idea chiefpaddy, but the problem is no one gives a damn if you have a Brooklyn emblem on your shirt or hat. The only question I do get about my Dodger stuff is usually from Yankee fans and it's usually "Is that a Red Sox hat?" They don't know anything about this stuff. That's what i'm tryin to get across.
Keep enjoying your passion and don't lose faith. It's young folks like you, who will keep alive the memory of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

[ColtscorrAL]

My son's 15. The first hat he got when he was a baby was a Brooklyn Dodgers hat. When he wanted to know who these Brooklyn Dodgers were, I let him read my books. He still refers to BUMS when he wants some info. It's nice to know some kids, my sons age, enjoy the history of Baseball.

[MATHA531]

The problem with your generation is they are constantly being fed lies on what happened in 1957 and why the Dodgers no longer play in Brooklyn. They are told that Walter O'Malley (better known as the slime ball) was a wonderful human being who wanted to give Brooklyn a state of the art baseball stadium but a greedy miserable politician named Robert Moses prevented him from doing so and because Ebbets Field was crumbling, he was in danger of losing money and so was forced to move the franchise to Los Angeles as Brooklyn could no longer support major league baseball. Nothing is further from the truth.

Here are the facts that you should be aware of and never forget.

1. In the 11 year period from 1947 to 1957, the Brooklyn Dodgers were the 2nd biggest money maker in baseball.

2. Even in their lame duck year of 1957, they drew over a million to Ebbets Field which was considered at that time the barrier between good attendance and excellent attendance. Only the Milwaukee Braves were outdrawing them and we all know in retrospect that was a fluke.

a. This despite the fact that every single home game (and 2/3 of the road games) were on free television.

b. This despite the fact they had many promotions such as Ladies Day every Saturday where women were admitted to Ebbets Field for 50¢, knothole game promotions with cub scout packs and other young people organizations in Brooklyn, promotions with the Borden milk company where you sent in a bunch of Elsie Borden wrappers and got 2 free general admission tickets etc. None of these counted in paid attendance.

3. The slime ball expected the City of New York to break New York State law and condemn property of a private organization, in this case the Pennsylvania Railroad Company which owned the Long Island Rail Road at the time, and hand it over to him. NYS law would not permit the condemnation of private property for use by another private organiztion. While Robert Moses was hardly a knight in shining armour, in this case he was clearly right. He (the City) would either have had to pay a very inflated price or it would have been tied up in the courts for a decade. Incidentally, there are rumours the slime ball owned Pennsylvania Rail Road stock whose value obviously would have increased tremendously. Draw your own conclusions. Incidentally it would have been necessary to build a spur from the Brooklyn Queens Expressway to the ball part. Who was going to pay for that?

4. Ebbets Field was younger than Wrigley Field and Fenway Park among other ball parks of that era. It was not crumbling...last time I checked both Wrigley and Fenway were still going strong.

5. The slime ball's plan to finance his state of the art ball park was to take the games off free television and put them on pay television; despte the fact the technology did not exist at the time.

6. In 1957, baseball was supposedly a civic responsibility. Almost every owner was making far less than the slime ball yet they didn't pull this garbage in their cities. Can you imagine true sportsmen like Wrigley, Carpenter and others pulling this garbage even though the teams in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and Cincinnati were making far less money than the slime ball?

7. Baseball always considered Brooklyn a different market than New York. During the 1950's in the 2 team cities, the schedule was always set up so when one team was home, the other was on the road. The Cubs were never home when the White Sox were, the Giants were never home when the Yankees were. But Brooklyn was always home against either the Giants or the Yankees so the Brooklyn territory was a separate city and of course by itself, Brooklyn was then the 3rd biggest city in the country and I think today it is the fourth.

8. The theft of the Brooklyn franchise was the first time a sucessful team making money was transferred and it was also the first time a franchise shift made a 1 team city a 0 team city; the other franchise shifts in the 1950's involving Boston, St. Louis, Philadelphia and New York made 2 team cities but left a team in place as the Braves, Brown, Athletics and Giants leaving still left the Red Sox, Cardinals, Phillies and Yankees in place. And later on, other franchise shifts involving Milwaukee Braves, Seattle, Kansas City and even although it took 37 years Washington had teams arestored. Only Brooklyn and now Montreal permanently lost their baseball franchises. And in the case of the two egregious franchise shifts in the NFL, both Baltimore and Cleveland got their teams back. LA LA land, well the two football teams they lost, the Rams and the Raiders were never really theirs anyway. And don't forget in New York, we lost both of our NFL teams and the only NY team in the NFL is over 350 miles away.

There has become a movement pushed by Peter O'Malley and Vince Scully to get this slime ball into the baseball Hall of Fame and it has become part of this campaign to blame Robert Moses. A 500 page book about Robert Moses, and yes he was a very cruel and power hungry man, was written and perhaps 1 page is devoted to the Brooklyn Dodger history. There was very little Moses could do under NYS law no matter what his public ambitions were.

Understand this and understand this well, there were 3 great villains of the 20th century....Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Walter (Slimeball) O'Malley. They are all resting in the same place namely hell and will for all eternity.

Unfortunately when those of us who know the truth of what this devious slime ball did because of his own personal greed pass on, the true story will be lost to history.

[Elvis]

The problem with your generation is they are constantly being fed lies on what happened in 1957 and why the Dodgers no longer play in Brooklyn. They are told that Walter O'Malley (better known as the slime ball) was a wonderful human being...

Roy Campanella was one of these "lie feeders" as you call him, who called his friend Walter O'Malley a wonderfull man and that the world would be better off with more like him.

I never met you, and I never met Roy... but Seeing as all I ever saw from him was kindness, generosity and an everlasting smile, while all I ever hear from you is vile bitterness darkness and hatred...

So I'll take Roy's word on O'Malley. Follow the light, not the darkness.

[MATHA531]

Campy was a player, a great player and the slime ball treated him great; especially after his tragic injury. The slime ball's warmness as a human being, and Jackie Robinson of course had a different view point, is not the issue here.

You can call me bitter or whatever. You have never once refuted the facts that were stated here...if my facts are wrong, I would love to be corrected.

The slime ball may have been a very good capitalist, a very good banker but as a sportsman and an owner of a major league franchise, he was a piece of slime. He was making a mint in Brooklyn, the Brooklyn franchise was almost an invitation to print money. He simply wanted more and again if you can refute that with facts, please do so. He may have been a wonderful capitalist; an illustration of it doesn't matter who you hurt as long as you make money but as a sportsman he was a less than zero.

To bring Campy's tragic accident into this is very unfortunate and very unwarranted.

[Elvis]

Campy was a player, a great player and the slime ball treated him great; especially after his tragic injury. The slime ball's warmness as a human being, and Jackie Robinson of course had a different view point, is not the issue here.

You can call me bitter or whatever. You have never once refuted the facts that were stated here...if my facts are wrong, I would love to be corrected.

The slime ball may have been a very good capitalist, a very good banker but as a sportsman and an owner of a major league franchise, he was a piece of slime. He was making a mint in Brooklyn, the Brooklyn franchise was almost an invitation to print money. He simply wanted more and again if you can refute that with facts, please do so. He may have been a wonderful capitalist; an illustration of it doesn't matter who you hurt as long as you make money but as a sportsman he was a less than zero.

To bring Campy's tragic accident into this is very unfortunate and very unwarranted.

I didn't mention Campy's accident, you did. I mentioned Campy's winning personality and attitude and how he choose to live his life.

"Facts" in and of themselves are meaningless. How we choose to react to "facts" is everything...as Campy proved in his remarkable life.

[MATHA531]

"Facts" in and of themselves are meaningless

Exactly what people say when they have nothing to refute the facts!

[EbtsFldGuy]

My vote goes to Matha 531. He has nailed the facts thorougly and cogently.

And Elvis, if you are seriously arguing that the facts are meaningless, you have my sympathy. Reaction to wrong facts is useless.

As to the start of this thread, it is good for teens to delve into this history, because it involves far more than just sports. As Pete Golenbeck wrote in Bums, there is a cruel irony in the Dodgers' history in Brooklyn in one regard. Though Branch Rickey brought Jackie Robinson to the team, and thus changed America for the better in no insignificant way, O'Malley got rid of both Rickey (1950, I think, by buying him out) and Robinson (sold him to the Giants after the 1956 season; Jackie retired then). Also, according to the book, O'Malley took note of the changing racial composition of Brooklyn and of the Ebbets Field patronage. So, the team that broke the racial barrier in baseball, appears to have used race as a factor in its decision to move.

The study of the team's move to LA is a complex mixture of economics, baseball. demographics, power politics, municipal inertia (Mayor Wagner and NYC) and hustle (LA worked hard to get the team), media, finance, seeing the future, and personal uncaring and greed.

There are many good sources to study on the decision to leave Brooklyn and go to the West Coast. Were I in college again, I'd gladly do a senior thesis on the move.

O'Malley belongs in the Business Hall of Fame, if there is one. He has no place, however, in Cooperstown, or in any Humanitarian Hall of Fame.

And finally, kids, do learn to spell and write correctly. The ability to do both well will help you in the real world in ways that you can't now envision.

(Showing some respect to your elders is not a bad habit to cultivate, either. You'll be there one day.)

[Lprof]

He spelled Brooklyn right. Thatz al thet cownts.I must tell you, I have just found this sight, and it is great! I attribute all my adult neuroses to the fact that the Dodgers left Brooklyn when I was 11. Because I have lived in Chicago for a long time, I am now a devout White Sox fan (and lived 55 all over again this fall). But as a kid, I attended BOTH of Carl Erskine's no-hitters, and lived and breathed the Dodgers. There will never, ever be anything like them again. I am looking forward to reading and posting on this sight from now on.:gt

[DODGER DEB]

I must tell you, I have just found this sight, and it is great! I attribute all my adult neuroses to the fact that the Dodgers left Brooklyn when I was 11. Because I have lived in Chicago for a long time, I am now a devout White Sox fan (and lived 55 all over again this fall). But as a kid, I attended BOTH of Carl Erskine's no-hitters, and lived and breathed the Dodgers. There will never, ever be anything like them again. I am looking forward to reading and posting on this sight from now on.:gt

Glad you found US, Lprof! Let me be the first to welcome you to OUR little corner of BBF! Here, WE inhale/exhale BROOKLYN DODGER BASEBALL, so please join in the discussions, and also share your own memories with US.

WE are the #1 Team Forum on BBF, and have been for quite some time. WE think that is pretty good, since WE haven't had an active team in more than 49 years.

c.

[Elvis]

And Elvis, if you are seriously arguing that the facts are meaningless, you have my sympathy. Reaction to wrong facts is useless.

Just as useless is the reaction to facts, if you react in the wrong way.

Since Matha introduced Campy's accident into the thread (and then accused me of doing it), I'll illustrate the point of "facts" and how they relate to character by using Campy as an example.

Fact: A tragedy occurs in your life. Your beloved team moves away, you become ill, a loved one passes away, you are seriously injured in an accident...whatever.

Person "A" reacts to this tragedy with anger...resentment...bitterness...hatred for whomever he feels is responsible...God, the Medical profession, Walter O'Malley...whomever.

Person "B" reacts to this "tragedy" without anger...without resentment...without bitterness... With a sense that everything happens for a reason...With love, gratitude and generosity, a positive attitude...Without blame or hatred for anyone...with a smile.

Tragedy ("Facts") occur in everyone's life. The choice you make, to either be like Person "A", or person "B" in reacting to these facts defines your character. The facts in and of themselves are meaningless.

"It's how you react to the tragedies in your life that defines your character."


Roy Campanella reacted to the "tragedy" of his accident not with anger, resentment, or bitterness, which so many do, but with a sense of acceptance and purpose, to teach and inspire, which he did to all who came into contact with him...to go through life...with a smile instead of a scowl. In fact, I'm willing to bet that Campy never referred to what happened to him as a tragedy, because it set his life in a direction that did so much good for so many people...Character.

Campy is obviously Person "B" - a man of great character and courage.

How do you choose to define your character? Are you Person "A", or "B"? How do you react to life?

If you all think I'm a fool for aspiring to be like Person "B", instead of making excuses for being like Person "A", frankly I don't care. I know which person is on the right path and which one will discover much later that he's been the fool.

God bless Campy... and all of us in this HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Best wishes for a great 2006!!!

And welcome to the young new Brooklyn Dodger fans here!!!

-----------------------------------------------

[MATHA531]

Nobody, Elvis, thinks you're a fool and nobody thinks the "tragedy" of the theft of the Brooklyn franchise in any way compares with the tragedy that befell Campy and nothing I said was meant to infer that at all. And yes O'Malley did provide wonderful solace and faith to Campy and saw to it that Campy was able to continue his life as much as possible as a member of the family of the baseball team O'Malley owned. And in that sense, O'Malley was a fine gentleman.

And despite my rantings and ravings on this board from time to time, I don't wake up every morning cursing the world about what happened in 1957.

However, and it is a big however, and I understand we approach this from different perspectives and different ages, over the last few years it has irked me ever since a book came out by a guy named Shapiro trying to shift the blame for what happened to the Dodgers from O'Malley to Robert Moses and seeing a number of people begin buying into that.

As you just can't seem to understand, baseball was much more of a religion to us back then and my grandfather handed down to my father who handed down to me the love for baseball as emblemized by the Brooklyn Dodgers and I'm sorry if you can't understand how bitter it was for an 11 year old boy devoted to the Dodgers to have that jerked away and then when this 11 year old boy became a little older and started to read the facts of what had happened the disappointment if not anger that arose.

When I post, and again I'm sorry you don't understand or want to understand this, it is to impress upon a younger generation the contempt of Mr. O'Malley, Mr. Warren Giles, Mr. Ford Frick for fans who had supported this franchise through thick and thin because of greed.

If the franchise were losing money, if the franchise were in any danger of losing money, while it may have left me just as angry as a child as an adult I would have come to realization. And as an adult, as I have said, I realize this charade we had as kids that somehow baseball was a sport was all a lie, it was one big fat business.

It simply irks me as a baseball fan, and I think I made this point before, that any honour should come to Walter O'Malley for the dastardly deed he did simply in the name of greed, not in the name of sports, not in the name of decency.

O'Malley was the lawyer for a bank, a lethal combination a lawyer and a banker for whom the only thing that counted was how he could make the most bucks....many other owners of the time simply did not have that greed and it is hard to imagine Mr. Rickey pulling what O'Malley did and like it or not, it is a fact of baseball history that in 1966 the Smithsonian did a study and found that the darkest moment in baseball history, the event that turned more people off from baseball than any other was the theft of the Brooklyn franchise.

All the other issues I have brought up such as the facts surrounding that Brooklyn no longer has nor ever will have a major league baseball team again are peripheral.

Again I'm sorry if you can't understand this...you call it bitterness or whatever. Although you may not understand it, there are other things more important in my life than a silly baseball game now obviously. It is just that as a young adult I feel I was deprived of the abiliity to hand down to my son the same love for baseball my dad had handed down to me and his dad to him.

Of course in the scheme of things it is unimportant. But it is the attitude of so many especially those who grow up now who are taught the Brooklyn Dodgers were losing money, they played in a crumbling ball park and the move to Los Angeles was a salvation for the franchise when a man named Robert Moses refused to assist Walter O'Malley in one of the greatest land grabs in American history.

Like I have said, we all have no control over certain things in our lives including when and where we are born, when and where we grow up and to a large extent that shapes our lives.

A 15 year old started this thread and has a right to hear what I consider to be the truth. You have the right to refute that and trust me I respect your right to your opinions.

The first time I saw you post on this board, you made some comment of not understandings the bitterness of many of the people on the Brooklyn Dodger web site and after all this time, you still don't get it. That is your right but one doesn't have to be nasty about it.

And the transfer of the Brooklyn franchise remains one of the blackest moments in the history of major league baseball and none of the Brooklyn fans here on this board ever did anything to deserve that.

[Bluesteve32]

I am among the first to criticize O'Malley and often call him "O'Money;" but he does not bear all the culpability in the Dodger moving. Mr. Moses' ego did colliade with O'Malley's which made for a hostile situation from most accounts I have seen.

It seems that Moses' had too much power, and really no one to answer to and O'Malley definately took advantage of that.

My question is why has baseball not replaced a team in Brooklyn, since the Giants attendance was quite poor in the mid 1950s?

[Elvis]

An honest thoughtfull post. I like. :)

Listen, I lost my Dad 2 years ago. I was living in NY and out of the blue heard he was in the hospital and in a coma. By the time I even got to book a flight I got the call that he had passed away. i never even had a chance to say goodbye, I love you, anything...he was just gone. I later found out some things about how things went down with the doctors there that might have had a different outcome. Not quite malpractice or a wrongfull death, but close enough. Never one did I curse God, the doctors, nurses or fate, and believe me, most would say I had good reason to. I choose to be at peace with my Dad's death because thankfully I had earlier learned that hating or resenting anything, for any reason will weaken you. It doesn't matter if it's a perceived "valid" reason or completely irrational. It makes no difference to your body, mind and spirit which always pay the price for negative emotional reactions.

When you say, "I just don't understand", I guess not, nor will I ever. Losing the Dodgers, no matter how "religious" the bond... well, you're never going to convince me that that is more justifiable an outrage than losing my Dad the way I did. Like you said, There're things more important than anything having to do with baseball. And I just can't imagine carrying around the hatred for those doctors all my life...eating away at my spirit whenever I thought of them...calling them slimeballs who will rot in hell etc. It just isn't worth it to me. I've read a lot of different religious and spiritual philosophies over the years as part of my own personal study and have found they all share this common "rule" to finding peace within yourself - a rule that you might as well learn sooner than later: Forgiveness.

Just as you felt you were never able to share your love of baseball with your son, I'll never be able to share the love of My Dad with mine. But I accept that as the way it was meant to be...because I have to.

Oh, and for the record, I never was refuting any of your facts. I'm sure they're accurate. You really know your stuff.

Anyway, no hard feelings. Happy New Year and best wishes for a great 2006!

[Elvis]

I am among the first to criticize O'Malley and often call him "O'Money;" but he does not bear all the culpability in the Dodger moving. Mr. Moses' ego did colliade with O'Malley's which made for a hostile situation from most accounts I have seen.

It seems that Moses' had too much power, and really no one to answer to and O'Malley definately took advantage of that.

My question is why has baseball not replaced a team in Brooklyn, since the Giants attendance was quite poor in the mid 1950s?

"While many dismissed New York as a viable National League city, Mayor Robert Wagner disagreed. He appointed a committee chaired by lawyer William A. Shea to aquire a N.L. franchise.

After failing to attract the Reds, Pirates and Phillies, he organized influential groups in eight cities, including New York, and announced the formation of a third major baseball circut, the Continental League, with the well respected Branch Rickey as its president. The new league never did get off the ground, but at a 1960 N.L. owners meeting in Chicago, William Shea was there to argue the case for one of the two expansion teams to be awarded to New York. On the eve of the meeting, Shea heard rumors that unless New York could guarantee a new stadium, the owners would pass on the Big Apple. Shea made a midnight call to Mayor Wagner and told him he must send wires immediately to the owners and promise a new ballpark. On the strength of the Mayor's telegram, N.L. owners awarded franchises to New York and Houston to start play in 1962."

My guess is that things had to start "popping" on a new stadium location pretty quickly after that, which didn't leave much time to debate where. "Hmm, Flushing Meadow sounds good, I guess! Let's start building tomorrow!" :crazy Which is pretty much how it happened!

[donzblock]

When you say, "I just don't understand", I guess not, nor will I ever. Losing the Dodgers, no matter how "religious" the bond... well, you're never going to convince me that that is more justifiable an outrage than losing my Dad the way I did. Like you said, There're things more important than anything having to do with baseball.
Yes, there are many things that are more important than baseball, but to measure how important the Brooklyn Dodgers were, I would not invoke religion. The Brooklyn Dodgers were real; you could verify that they existed; witnesses agreed on what their uniforms looked like and what their stats were. And if you could not see them in person, you could view them on television. And they were not cartoons; they played in an age that pre-dated the kinds of special effects that simulate reality so brilliantly.

The bond was not religious; it was emotional and occasionally rational. Unlike a religion that postulates an eternal hell from which a sinner cannot escape, the worst the Dodgers could experience was last place, and it was always possible to escape from that. That kind of leniency and accommodation to reality makes baseball to me far superior to religion.

I've read a lot of different religious and spiritual philosophies over the years as part of my own personal study and have found they all share this common "rule" to finding peace within yourself - a rule that you might as well learn sooner than later: Forgiveness.

Forgiveness can be harmful if you end up forgiving someone who has committed abominable crimes. Forgiving a Hitler would be like casting pearls before swine, and forgiving him might make it possible for him to commit additional atrocities. You can argue that such a person should be forgiven after he is dead, but then why bother? If a person is dead, he cannot be aware of your forgiveness. But a budding Hitler might conclude that if a Hitler can be forgiven ultimately, then why not become a Hitler?

In baseball, however, true forgiveness is possible. The harsh New York winters would always remove the disappointments of a previous year, and each spring would be greeted with pure joy. I never hated Ralph Branca for surrendering that home run, and I never hated Thomson for hitting it. Put Branca in a biblical context, and he would be frying in hell eternally. Remove Ralphie from the other world and he becomes a human being like the rest of us, imperfect, supremely talented, worthy of respect, and a decent human being.

[Elvis]

Forgiveness can be harmful if you end up forgiving someone who has committed abominable crimes.

Not according to Jesus, Buddah, Mohammed, Krishna, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul, etc etc...

Again, that statement you just madde goes against every religious/spiritual teaching there is. Let God worry about vengence and judgement.

Forgiveness can NEVER be harmfull. :)

[Bluesteve32]

"While many dismissed New York as a viable National League city, Mayor Robert Wagner disagreed. He appointed a committee chaired by lawyer William A. Shea to aquire a N.L. franchise.

After failing to attract the Reds, Pirates and Phillies, he organized influential groups in eight cities, including New York, and announced the formation of a third major baseball circut, the Continental League, with the well respected Branch Rickey as its president. The new league never did get off the ground, but at a 1960 N.L. owners meeting in Chicago, William Shea was there to argue the case for one of the two expansion teams to be awarded to New York. On the eve of the meeting, Shea heard rumors that unless New York could guarantee a new stadium, the owners would pass on the Big Apple. Shea made a midnight call to Mayor Wagner and told him he must send wires immediately to the owners and promise a new ballpark. On the strength of the Mayor's telegram, N.L. owners awarded franchises to New York and Houston to start play in 1962."

My guess is that things had to start "popping" on a new stadium location pretty quickly after that, which didn't leave much time to debate where. "Hmm, Flushing Meadow sounds good, I guess! Let's start building tomorrow!" :crazy Which is pretty much how it happened!

I am very familiar with the Continental League. They may have been a catalyst, along with the move of the Giants and Dodgers to the west, for expansion of both leauges. The American and National Leagues were dragging their feet in any movement of franchises and expansion, and the other shifts prior to 1958 were rather "safe" shift of financially troubled teams. There were also serious proposals in making the PCL a major league as well. The PCL receive AAAA status in the 1950s.

[DODGER DEB]

I believe it is time that the discussion RETURN to the TOPIC of this THREAD!

Thank you.

c.

[EbtsFldGuy]

Nobody, Elvis, thinks you're a fool and nobody thinks the "tragedy" of the theft of the Brooklyn franchise in any way compares with the tragedy that befell Campy and nothing I said was meant to infer that at all. And yes O'Malley did provide wonderful solace and faith to Campy and saw to it that Campy was able to continue his life as much as possible as a member of the family of the baseball team O'Malley owned. And in that sense, O'Malley was a fine gentleman.

And despite my rantings and ravings on this board from time to time, I don't wake up every morning cursing the world about what happened in 1957.

However, and it is a big however, and I understand we approach this from different perspectives and different ages, over the last few years it has irked me ever since a book came out by a guy named Shapiro trying to shift the blame for what happened to the Dodgers from O'Malley to Robert Moses and seeing a number of people begin buying into that.

As you just can't seem to understand, baseball was much more of a religion to us back then and my grandfather handed down to my father who handed down to me the love for baseball as emblemized by the Brooklyn Dodgers and I'm sorry if you can't understand how bitter it was for an 11 year old boy devoted to the Dodgers to have that jerked away and then when this 11 year old boy became a little older and started to read the facts of what had happened the disappointment if not anger that arose.

When I post, and again I'm sorry you don't understand or want to understand this, it is to impress upon a younger generation the contempt of Mr. O'Malley, Mr. Warren Giles, Mr. Ford Frick for fans who had supported this franchise through thick and thin because of greed.

If the franchise were losing money, if the franchise were in any danger of losing money, while it may have left me just as angry as a child as an adult I would have come to realization. And as an adult, as I have said, I realize this charade we had as kids that somehow baseball was a sport was all a lie, it was one big fat business.

It simply irks me as a baseball fan, and I think I made this point before, that any honour should come to Walter O'Malley for the dastardly deed he did simply in the name of greed, not in the name of sports, not in the name of decency.

O'Malley was the lawyer for a bank, a lethal combination a lawyer and a banker for whom the only thing that counted was how he could make the most bucks....many other owners of the time simply did not have that greed and it is hard to imagine Mr. Rickey pulling what O'Malley did and like it or not, it is a fact of baseball history that in 1966 the Smithsonian did a study and found that the darkest moment in baseball history, the event that turned more people off from baseball than any other was the theft of the Brooklyn franchise.

All the other issues I have brought up such as the facts surrounding that Brooklyn no longer has nor ever will have a major league baseball team again are peripheral.

Again I'm sorry if you can't understand this...you call it bitterness or whatever. Although you may not understand it, there are other things more important in my life than a silly baseball game now obviously. It is just that as a young adult I feel I was deprived of the abiliity to hand down to my son the same love for baseball my dad had handed down to me and his dad to him.

Of course in the scheme of things it is unimportant. But it is the attitude of so many especially those who grow up now who are taught the Brooklyn Dodgers were losing money, they played in a crumbling ball park and the move to Los Angeles was a salvation for the franchise when a man named Robert Moses refused to assist Walter O'Malley in one of the greatest land grabs in American history.

Like I have said, we all have no control over certain things in our lives including when and where we are born, when and where we grow up and to a large extent that shapes our lives.

A 15 year old started this thread and has a right to hear what I consider to be the truth. You have the right to refute that and trust me I respect your right to your opinions.

The first time I saw you post on this board, you made some comment of not understandings the bitterness of many of the people on the Brooklyn Dodger web site and after all this time, you still don't get it. That is your right but one doesn't have to be nasty about it.

And the transfer of the Brooklyn franchise remains one of the blackest moments in the history of major league baseball and none of the Brooklyn fans here on this board ever did anything to deserve that.

In my years of reading and posting on this board, I've not seen anyone more eloquent, genuine and without self-importance than Matha 531.

You, sir, are a breath of fresh air.

And your facts are solid!

I was 3 years older than you were when the Dodgers moved, and I ached then - and for years later - exactly as you descibed.

Keep on posting!

[donzblock]

Not according to Jesus, Buddah, Mohammed, Krishna, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul, etc etc...

Again, that statement you just madde goes against every religious/spiritual teaching there is. Let God worry about vengence and judgement.

Forgiveness can NEVER be harmfull. :)
You have completely ignored the particulars of what I wrote; your response reasserts a platitude. Moreover, name dropping is not convincing.

If you are serious about letting God worry about vengeance and judgment, then we should dismantle our legal system and demolish all prisons. And of course these forums would have to disappear, also, since it would not be our place to judge, and then nobody would be able to respond to 55 chmps's belief that his "generation sux" because so few of his contemporaries know about the Brooklyn Dodgers.

[EbtsFldGuy]

[QUOTE=donzblock] your response reasserts a platitude. Moreover, name dropping is not convincing.

Reasserting a " platitude" of the ideal of forgiveness ??????

Citing Mother Teresa, the Pope et al greats of history is "name dropping" that is "not convincing"?

OH, P L E A S E!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tonypug]

Well 55chmps, I think this thread alone runs a whole gamut of emotions, of how we felt about our team. As far as your generation goes, the youngsters like you will keep baseball and Brooklyn Dodger history alive. There are more like you out there,so keep on doing what you are doing and things will work out.

[64Cards]

Matha, that was, as mentioned, an excellent and eloquent post. And regardless of how someone personally felt about the Brooklyn Dodgers, letting them leave did turn off a lot of people, some who were very influential, to MLB. Maybe it was coincidental, but the famous NFL championship game between the Giants and Colts would occur the next year and it wouldn't be much longer before the NFL replaced MLB as America's pastime. Having the NL abandon two of its most historic and beloved franchises in the nations media center would do irrepearable damage to MLB.

[Elvis]

If you are serious about letting God worry about vengeance and judgment, then we should dismantle our legal system and demolish all prisons.

Do you not see the difference between being judged under the law and being judged as a human being? It is not man's place to judge another. Period. This is a basic Judeo-Christain philosophy, which I choose to adhere to, because I simply don't think it's right to judge another human being. You do, and that's your privelidge.

Because I agree with and try and live by the teachings of great spiritual leaders, you call that foolish, try and belittle me and accuse me of name-dropping. In that case it would seem everyone who quotes the Bible or goes to Sunday school is "name-dropping" Jesus. As you wish. If it makes you feel somehow superior then you have my blessing to pick on me all you want, I don't mind.

I still wish you a very happy new year, good fortune and many blessings in the future! :)

[donzblock]

Do you not see the difference between being judged under the law and being judged as a human being? It is not man's place to judge another. Period. This is a basic Judeo-Christain philosophy, which I choose to adhere to, because I simply don't think it's right to judge another human being. You do, and that's your privelidge.
Therefore, according to you, I as a human being should not judge a Goebbels, a Mengele, or a Hitler. But if I do not judge a person, how will the law be able to judge him? At some point prior to the appearance of the legal system, a person has to judge that someone else has done something wrong. For the legal system to come into play, someone must judge and then charge somebody. Relatives of Eichmann's victims judged Eichmann to be a monster, and they presented enough evidence to the authorities to give the Israeli government a reason to track him down. Were the victims of Eichmann wrong to judge Eichmann? Were not these people who were doing the charging also judging? If you take what you are saying to a logical conclusion, you will enter the realm of absurdity and ultimately chaos. And you will disappear from this board because on this board, and on this thread, we are responding to someone else's judgment. On this thread, we are responding to 55 chmps' opinion that his contemporaries "suck" because they are unaware of the Brooklyn Dodgers' history.

Because I agree with and try and live by the teachings of great spiritual leaders, you call that foolish, try and belittle me and accuse me of name-dropping. In that case it would seem everyone who quotes the Bible or goes to Sunday school is "name-dropping" Jesus. As you wish. If it makes you feel somehow superior then you have my blessing to pick on me all you want, I don't mind.
How did we get from you to everybody? Aren't you making a bit of a hasty generalization? I was just focusing on little old you. Not for one second do I imagine that you represent everybody.

As for your great spiritual leaders, do a little research on Mother Teresa before you start calling her a great spiritual leader. You might also allow a little time to pass before you declare Pope John Paul II to be a great spiritual leader. While I judge him favorably for what he did to improve relations between Jews and Christians, I judge him harshly for his failure to deal more forcefully with the criminal priests in his church who abused children, and in an overcrowded world, I will oppose vehemently anybody who opposes birth control.

And aren't you contradicting yourself by calling certain spiritual leaders great? Is that not a judgment you are expressing, sir? How do you judge 55 chmps' contemporaries who are unaware of the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers?


I still wish you a very happy new year, good fortune and many blessings in the future! :)
And may the knowledge that mankind has acquired via the scientific method keep you healthy, may you earn money honestly, may you be lucky enough to have a good future, and may you judge fairly 55 chmps' contemporaries who are in the dark about the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

[Elvis]

Therefore, according to you, I as a human being should not judge a Goebbels, a Mengele, or a Hitler.

According to the teachings of Jesus and other spiritual leaders, yes. Why do you continue to deny that it is really their message that you have a problem with? I'm just a messenger. Now you will surely attempt to belittle me for that as well, I suppose for not being an original thinker! :crazy


If you take what you are saying to a logical conclusion, you will enter the realm of absurdity and ultimately chaos.


If you call being religious "absurdity and chaos", so be it. ;) I still love you.

Now, I'm not one to complain, or anything like that, but it's really hard to be 14 yearz old and have an infatuation with the Brooklyn Dodgers when no one knows that there was baseball in Brooklyn. Now I would lyk to know, this is directed to the younger people, if any one has this problem and I'd like to discuss it with you. Thanx a bunch

Don't worry about other people's reactions or cluelessness about the Brooklyn Dodgers. That's their problem, not yours, right? Everyone has their "secret" hobbies or infatuations that no one else knows about or cares about...sometimes, that makes them even more special, and makes YOU more special!

Wear your Brooklyn hat with pride anad when someone doesn't "get it", just give 'em one of these ;)

[DODGER DEB]

I have asked that those posting on this thread return to discussing the topic of the thread, which has all to do with the current generation's lack of knowledge of OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS. The topic has NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, to do with religion or politics, topics WE refrain from discussing on BBF for obvious reasons.

I now INSIST that EVERYONE return to the topic of this thread. Failing to do so, I will simply close this thread.

Your total cooperation is appreciated.

c.

[garydodgerboy2]

I just found this site and now know why I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A DODGER FAN! I was born in 1955(the year the yankee's died) grew up in LA and have been to over 100 DODGERS-giants games in my life.Kofax-Drysdale-Mays-McCovey-All the way to the LAST LA-SF game in candlestick (LA WINS) to the first game at Pac-Bell Park(YET. A DODGER 3 game sweep!!!) GO BLUE the only other rivalry in BASEBALL

[donzblock]

I just found this site and now know why I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A DODGER FAN! I was born in 1955(the year the yankee's died) grew up in LA and have been to over 100 DODGERS-giants games in my life.Kofax-Drysdale-Mays-McCovey-All the way to the LAST LA-SF game in candlestick (LA WINS) to the first game at Pac-Bell Park(YET. A DODGER 3 game sweep!!!) GO BLUE the only other rivalry in BASEBALL
With all due respect, the rivalry you are talking about is not the one we discuss on this forum. The Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants died in 1957. We are still waiting for a resurrection.

This thread was started by 14-year-old 55 chmps, who lives on the Island but knows no one his age who shares his infatuation with the Brooklyn Dodgers. Under our tutelage, he is learning how to spell, but he is already very well informed about the Brooklyn Dodgers and can probably hold his own with anybody, 14 or older. He may be able to explain to you better than I the profound differences between the Brooklyn Dodgers and that abomination that slithers around in an LA ravine.

[Elvis]

He may be able to explain to you better than I the profound differences between the Brooklyn Dodgers and that abomination that slithers around in an LA ravine.

One profound difference is that the Los Angeles Dodgers will open spring training in Vero Beach in February, 2006, on a quest for their 6th World Championship in Southern California, while the Brooklyn Dodgers will not slither around a bourough in New York, as they ceased to exist during the Eisenhower administration. :waving

[donzblock]

Elvis continues to spread the love around.

[Elvis]

Elvis continues to spread the love around.

Yes, love can be a little harsh sometimes, but that's because love is the ultimate truth, and sometimes the truth hurts.

I wouldn't have said anything, but you called my favorite team an "abomination" again, so I HAD to say SOMETHING. :rolleyes:

By the way, Tommy Lasorda doesn't slither, he waddles a little maybe. :laugh

[DODGER DEB]

Yes, love can be a little harsh sometimes, but that's because love is the ultimate truth, and sometimes the truth hurts.

I wouldn't have said anything, but you called my favorite team an "abomination" again, so I HAD to say SOMETHING. :rolleyes:

By the way, Tommy Lasorda doesn't slither, he waddles a little maybe. :laugh


What part of "stick to the topic of THIS thread" do you have trouble understanding, ELvis9045? The topic, in case you forgot it, is how to carry on the memory of OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS to the present generation. IT has NOTHING to do with that left coast group.

NOW, should you care to continue to post on this thread, then I expect you adhere to the warnings that have been given.

c.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I hope this sticks to the topic. When Vero Beach was mentioned I did have a thought that unlike the Giants, the Dodgers do celebrate their Brooklyn past. They always have stayed in Vero Beach, a major inconvenience to their Left Coast fans. Of course the Jints trained in Arizona even in the Gotham days so maybe I make no sense. The Dodgers had all the Dodger greats on their outfield wall for a few seasons and their were many Brooklyn stars. This can of course be construed as having your cake etc. and also draining the blood off a dead corpse. I truly feel that in the beginning ,1958-1966, the majority of the organization never left Brooklyn in their minds. If a Brooklyn Dodger fan in 1957 moved to L.A. for a job, a woman(man) they loved, any reason you can imagine ,were they happy to see the Dodgers move? I have no idea. It was just such an era of change, I can't get a grip on it.

[DODGER DEB]

I hope this sticks to the topic. When Vero Beach was mentioned I did have a thought that unlike the Giants, the Dodgers do celebrate their Brooklyn past. They always have stayed in Vero Beach, a major inconvenience to their Left Coast fans. Of course the Jints trained in Arizona even in the Gotham days so maybe I make no sense. The Dodgers had all the Dodger greats on their outfield wall for a few seasons and their were many Brooklyn stars. This can of course be construed as having your cake etc. and also draining the blood off a dead corpse. I truly feel that in the beginning ,1958-1966, the majority of the organization never left Brooklyn in their minds. If a Brooklyn Dodger fan in 1957 moved to L.A. for a job, a woman(man) they loved, any reason you can imagine ,were they happy to see the Dodgers move? I have no idea. It was just such an era of change, I can't get a grip on it.

You make some good observations, SS. And yes, I do think it sticks to the topic in that it does provide 55champs with some insight about OUR DODGERS, shortly after 1957.

There is much to say on several of the points you touch on, and my book will shed some light on a few of them.

Stay tuned...

c.

[Elvis]

...[The topic] in case you forgot it, is how to carry on the memory of OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS to the present generation. IT has NOTHING to do with that left coast group.

Baloney sauce. The Dodgers have done more to carry on the memory of the east coast group to more younger folks than any other group or organization. Millions of young people growing up in Southern California have been educated on east coast group history by Los Angeles Dodger representatives through the years like Vin Scully, Don Drysdale, Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax, Roy Campanella, Ross Porter, Jerry Doggett, Charlie Stiener and Tommy Lasorda among others, who have shared and passed on the Brooklyn history to me and every other younger Dodger fan.

In fact, I'd bet that the typical Southern California baseball fan knows more about the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers than the typical New Yorker. As Mel Allen would say, "How 'bout that?" :rolleyes:

My advice to any younger fan who wants to learn about early Dodger history: Move to L.A.. and listen to Dodger broadcasts. You'll learn more here than anywhere else. Now, how's that for staying on topic? :dance

[Elvis]

If a Brooklyn Dodger fan in 1957 moved to L.A. for a job, a woman(man) they loved, any reason you can imagine ,were they happy to see the Dodgers move? I have no idea. It was just such an era of change, I can't get a grip on it.

I know many Brooklyn Dodger fans who moved to Southern California and are rabid Dodger fans to this day. They have also helped add to the younger generation's knowledge of the Brooklyn history here in SoCal by passing on stories and memories. They also appreciated the fact that, unlike the Gints, the Dodgers always showcased their past.

[Ford Prefect]

I got Ken Burns "Baseball" DVD for Christmas and it has a chapter regarding the Dodger leaving Brooklyn the title is "A Death in the Family" and thats what i think discribs it best.

[DODGER DEB]

I got Ken Burns "Baseball" DVD for Christmas and it has a chapter regarding the Dodger leaving Brooklyn the title is "A Death in the Family" and thats what i think discribs it best.


Thank you, Ford Pefect. You have described it perfectly, and as it was!

Welcome to BBF, and to OUR corner of the baseball world.

c.

[donzblock]

Stop being judgmental, Elvis, and get back on the topic. If you want to stir a pot, find a kitchen. Do you have any advice for a 14-year-old who is attempting to come to grips with the fact that his contemporaries have little knowledge of the genuine Dodger team, the one that played in Brooklyn?

[Elvis]

Several of the names you list had nothing to do with OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS

So? With that logic, you should only be able to learn about the Civil War if the people teaching you participated in it.

[donzblock]

Not being judgemental. When you hear lies (Dodger fans are clueless about baseball etc.) and you call poo poo "poo poo", it's not judging anyone. I should send you a book on the differences between judging actions and judging the person who performs those actions, because you still seem confused.
An action cannot be divorced from the person performing it. If a person does not perform it, there is no no action. Stop playing with words.

When a team has been dead for 45 years but a person is enthusiastic about that team, how can that person convey such enthusiasm to his friends so that the legacy of that team will live on?

I offer my students a prune danish whenever one of them can surprise me with a fact about the Brooklyn Dodgers that I did not know. I also will reward any student who comes to class wearing a Brooklyn Dodger cap, shirt, or other item of Brooklyn Dodger clothing. Is young 55 chmps in a position to bribe his friends so that he may spark their interest in the Brooklyn Dodgers? Should 55 chmps do so? Is it ethical to resort to such tactics?

[Elvis]

An action cannot be divorced from the person performing it. If a person does not perform it, there is no no action. Stop playing with words.

When a team has been dead for 45 years but a person is enthusiastic about that team, how can that person convey such enthusiasm to his friends so that the legacy of that team will live on?

I offer my students a prune danish whenever one of them can surprise me with a fact about the Brooklyn Dodgers that I did not know. I also will reward any student who comes to class wearing a Brooklyn Dodger cap, shirt, or other item of Brooklyn Dodger clothing. Is young 55 chmps in a position to bribe his friends so that he may spark their interest in the Brooklyn Dodgers? Should 55 chmps do so? Is it ethical to resort to such tactics?


It's ethical. What's the difference between doing that and awarding "gold stars" as most teachers do with young kids. Incentives are good as long as you're not using trickery, or not awarding what you say you will ahead of time. Dangling a carrot in front of a mule to make him come is only cruel if you don't give him the carrot when he gets there.

So what kind of incenetives can a 14-year old (presumably broke) offer his buddies to spark an interest in learning more about the Dodgers? I have no clue what would work, except maybe access to a hidden stash of old Playboy magazines. :)

Any suggestions?

Ice cream treats to name the 1949 starting linup?

Movie tickets for knowing Johnny Podres' 1956 ERA?
----------------------------

((An action cannot be divorced from the person performing it. If a person does not perform it, there is no no action. Stop playing with words.))

Is it not "playing with words" to discern a difference between saying, "That was a dumb thing to say", and, "You're a dumb human being". Smart people sometimes do stupid things, but this does not make them stupid people. Judging the act, not the person, is not "playing with words", Proffesor.

[donzblock]

I would humbly suggest to 55 chmps that he go the prune danish route. It is affordable and healthful.

[CaliforniaCajun]

Now, I'm not one to complain, or anything like that, but it's really hard to be 14 yearz old and have an infatuation with the Brooklyn Dodgers when no one knows that there was baseball in Brooklyn. Now I would lyk to know, this is directed to the younger people, if any one has this problem and I'd like to discuss it with you. Thanx a bunch

I can't think of a situation even close to this one, where a team and community so popular and such an integral part of the game it plays, was not at least replaced.

Brooklyn deserves a team like no other major league city in any sport.

I am from the Los Angeles area and I, too, found out what happened long after I became a Dodger fan. When I found out I switched my primary allegiance to the Angels. We're both natives of the same area and neither of us were stolen.

[Elvis]

When I found out I switched my primary allegiance to the Angels.

My condolences.

[DODGER DEB]

I can't think of a situation even close to this one, where a team and community so popular and such an integral part of the game it plays, was not at least replaced.

Brooklyn deserves a team like no other major league city in any sport.

I am from the Los Angeles area and I, too, found out what happened long after I became a Dodger fan. When I found out I switched my primary allegiance to the Angels. We're both natives of the same area and neither of us were stolen.

Thank you, CC!

c.

[Elvis]

Thank you, CC!

c.
;) -------------------------

[steveox]

My generation sux too.Living in baltimore born in 1961.When i was 10 years old in 1971 my dad wouldnt allow me watch the colts in memorial stadium.He told me im not old enough to watch a football game at the stadium its for adults.He said when im 18 hell take me to a colt game he said if i wanna watch the colts i cant watch em on TV.In 1979 i he took me as promised but then the colts werent winners anymore they completely sucked.Then that last year in 1983 i became a colts season ticket holder and then owner bob irsay took the team to indianapolis.I even ask dad about moving to indianapolis leaving baltimore.Well he wanted to stay cause he was being paid good at general moters.So im stuck watching the orioles instead of the colts.Now we got the ravens and its not the same without the colts here.I wished god would have allowed me to be born in 1945 so i can watch johnny unitas at memorial stadium.

[Gotham]

Enjoy them while you have got them. Pro sports are a business. I can only think of a few franchises that are untouchable, and I am not even sure about them.

Bears
Canadiens
Leafs
Red Sox
Cubs
Cowboys?


There are many "foundation" teams I could envision moving: Yankees, Cards, Dodgers, Niners, Steelers, Raiders(obviously), Dolphins Etc. ad nauseaum.

[64Cards]

If a Brooklyn Dodger fan in 1957 moved to L.A. for a job, a woman(man) they loved, any reason you can imagine ,were they happy to see the Dodgers move? I have no idea. It was just such an era of change, I can't get a grip on it.
A good hypothetical question and it's not meant to challenge the great loyalty of the Brooklyn fans, but yeah, suppose you had moved to LA for the very reasons SS mentioned. I know the Dodgers had great support from the show business community, many of whom were originally from NY and I'd imagine quite a few had been Brooklyn fans. And while the thought that there would no longer be a BROOKLYN Dodger franchise was a shocker, having their favorite team coming to bring MLB to their new home had to be quite exciting.

[Elvis]

A good hypothetical question and it's not meant to challenge the great loyalty of the Brooklyn fans, but yeah, suppose you had moved to LA for the very reasons SS mentioned. I know the Dodgers had great support from the show business community, many of whom were originally from NY and I'd imagine quite a few had been Brooklyn fans. And while the thought that there would no longer be a BROOKLYN Dodger franchise was a shocker, having their favorite team coming to bring MLB to their new home had to be quite exciting.

It's not all that hypothetical. There are several members on the Dodgers MLB board that grew up in Brooklyn as Dodger fans in the 40s and 50s and are still rabid L.A. Dodger fans even though they are still living on the east coast. I know of some in Baltimore who are still Colts fans, as well as tons of Angelinos who are still Rams fans. Most fans of the Dodgers when they moved west weren't transplanted New Yorkers who rooted for the Dodgers (although as you mentioned, many in show buisiness were and did), they were native Angelinos who had rooted for either the Stars or Angels. L.A. was a rabid baseball town long before the arrival of the Dodgers.

[tonypug]

It's not all that hypothetical. There are several members on the Dodgers MLB board that grew up in Brooklyn as Dodger fans in the 40s and 50s and are still rabid L.A. Dodger fans even though they are still living on the east coast. I know of some in Baltimore who are still Colts fans, as well as tons of Angelinos who are still Rams fans. Most fans of the Dodgers when they moved west weren't transplanted New Yorkers who rooted for the Dodgers (although as you mentioned, many in show buisiness were and did), they were native Angelinos who had rooted for either the Stars or Angels. L.A. was a rabid baseball town long before the arrival of the Dodgers.
L,A. was a rabid baseball town long before the arrival of the Dodgers is true. L,A, deserved major league baseball, it wasn't necessary for O'Malley to move the team, from Brooklyn for L.A. to get a team. It was only O'Malley's greed that caused the move.There hasn't been an arguement about L.A. deserving a team, Everyone could have been happy except for O'Malley and the National Leagues greed and stupidity.

[Elvis]

L,A. was a rabid baseball town long before the arrival of the Dodgers is true. L,A, deserved major league baseball, it wasn't necessary for O'Malley to move the team, from Brooklyn for L.A. to get a team. It was only O'Malley's greed that caused the move.There hasn't been an arguement about L.A. deserving a team, Everyone could have been happy except for O'Malley and the National Leagues greed and stupidity.

True.

Too bad about Pearl Harbor. If the Japanese had waited a few more months to attack us, the Browns would've been here in Los Angeles in '42. But that would've just meant O'Malley would have moved the Dodgers to Minnesota or San Francisco, or maybe as a second L.A. team, who knows.

[tonypug]

True.

Too bad about Pearl Harbor. If the Japanese had waited a few more months to attack us, the Browns would've been here in Los Angeles in '42. But that would've just meant O'Malley would have moved the Dodgers to Minnesota or San Francisco, or maybe as a second L.A. team, who knows.
O'Malley wasn't going anywhere by himself. LA and SF were both ready and eager for major league baseball. If that option wasn't available I truly believe the situation would have worked itself out in Brooklyn.

[Shotgun Shuba]

It was two teams or nothing. Scheduling demanded this scenario. The NL is a major felon in this. Why in the world could the largest city in America not prevent this atrocity?

[tonypug]

It was two teams or nothing. Scheduling demanded this scenario. The NL is a major felon in this. Why in the world could the largest city in America not prevent this atrocity?
During the 50's and 60's O'Malley pretty much ran the National League. Yes, there was a National League president, but O'Malley had all the power.He was the one who insisted both teams had to move together. He had a built in rivalry, and that meant money.Robert Wagner was the New York City Mayor during this time and he was no match for O'Malley. Also bear in mind much of what O'Malley was asking for was probably illegal for the City to do. Once O'Malley knew LA wanted him, there was nothing the City of New York could do to stop him. Even if the City finally gave in to O'Malley, he would have used that to get even more out of LA, and still would have moved.

[MATHA531]

The facts of what happened in 1957 are clearly stated in my post earlier in the thread; no need to repeat them.

O'Malley, while the Dodgers were playing in the 1956 World Series was busy entertaining Mayor Poulson of Los Angeles to set the deal in motion and then early in 1957 bought the Los Angeles PCL franchise from Phil Wrigley of the Cubs to set everything in motion.

At the same time, he was claiming how he wanted to stay in Brooklyn if only the city would give him land owned by a private entity, the land over the LIRR terminal at the intersection of Flatbush and Atlantic Avenues. For the City of New York to condemn this land and take it from the Pennsylvania Railroad was clearly illegal under New York State law. Robert Moses offered this greedy slime ball the same deal the Mets were later to get in Flushing Medow but the slime ball said he could not call the team the Brooklyn Dodgers if they played in Queens. Of course nobody ever asked him how he could call the team the Brooklyn Dodgers if they played in Los Angeles.

In any event, as previously noted, some guy named Shapiro wrote a book called the last good year about the 1956 season and based on information fed to him by the O'Malley family, tried to make Robert Moses the scapegoat. Many ill informed people have started to buy into this nonsense. It is all an effort to try to get the slime ball into the Hall of Fame. Vince Scully has said on many occasions he will not attend the Hall of Fame ceremonies (he is a member of the broadcaster's wing of the Hall of Fame) until the slime ball is put in and that it is only bitter people on the east coast who are keeping the slime ball from his rightful place in the Hall of Fame.

But do remember the comment at the end and it is worth repeating....there were 3 great villains of the 20th century, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Walter O'Malley. I am sure they are all residing in the same place.

[Elvis]

I am sure they are all residing in the same place.

You believe in Hell, yet you believe that man, not God, should judge who belongs there... :)

I really don't think it's neccesary to keep bringing Hitler and the afterlife into almost every thread.

[Shotgun Shuba]

Especially since Hitler was a Browns fan.

[tonypug]

You believe in Hell, yet you believe that man, not God, should judge who belongs there... :)

I really don't think it's neccesary to keep bringing Hitler and the afterlife into almost every thread.
All he is doing is repeating what has been published in several books. Ther is nothing wrong with that. It also gives people an idea of the feelings that O'Malley brought out in not just Brooklyn fans but many others as well.

[MATHA531]

BTW Elvis..I did not use the word hell....and besides the quote is not an original one from me but it accurately describes what was perhaps the blackest moment in the history of major league baseball and the indication of the contempt mlb had and continues to have for its fans.

[donzblock]

BTW Elvis..I did not use the word hell....and besides the quote is not an original one from me but it accurately describes what was perhaps the blackest moment in the history of major league baseball and the indication of the contempt mlb had and continues to have for its fans.
That was a hell of a thing that O'Malley did. Just what the hell was he thinking? He was thinking that money was a hell of a lot more important than loyalty. Right now, I can see Sir Walter playing poker with Adolf and Uncle Joe, and the pot is huge, but the chips have absorbed a lot of the hellish heat, and Walter is wondering if he should fold his royal flush and preserve what remains of his flesh or rake in the steaming chips and risk losing some skin the hard way.

By now, 55 chmps' contemporaries should have absorbed enough knowledge from their mentor to be able to discuss intelligently how O'Malley in hell will play his cards.

[DODGER DEB]

That was a hell of a thing that O'Malley did. Just what the hell was he thinking? He was thinking that money was a hell of a lot more important than loyalty. Right now, I can see Sir Walter playing poker with Adolf and Uncle Joe, and the pot is huge, but the chips have absorbed a lot of the hellish heat, and Walter is wondering if he should fold his royal flush and preserve what remains of his flesh or rake in the steaming chips and risk losing some skin the hard way.

By now, 55 chmps' contemporaries should have absorbed enough knowledge from their mentor to be able to discuss intelligently how O'Malley in hell will play his cards.


As always, Professor, your "way with words" brings the point home perfectly!

c.

[EbtsFldGuy]

Let's get real here, boys and girls.

Comparing O'Malley to Hitler is odious.

He was a calculating businessman, who did all that he could to line his pockets, not caring about the pain his decision brought to Dodger fans, or about the result to Brooklyn and NYC.

But he put no one in ovens and ran no concentration camps.

This from someone who is no admirer of the late Walter.

Perspective, my children!

[Elvis]

Let's get real here, boys and girls.

Comparing O'Malley to Hitler is odious.

He was a calculating businessman, who did all that he could to line his pockets, not caring about the pain his decision brought to Dodger fans, or about the result to Brooklyn and NYC.

But he put no one in ovens and ran no concentration camps.

This from someone who is no admirer of the late Walter.

Perspective, my children!

I seriously disbelieve that those here who've expressed the opinion that O'Malley was on par with someone who murdered 6 million innocent souls are being truthfull. No one in their right mind would seriously take such a preposterous position.

I mean, Campy never said that the world lost a tremendous person when Hitler died...and never said that the world would be a better place with more people like Adolf Hitler... that would've been outrageous... but he DID say it about Walter O'Malley.

[The Commissioner]

I seriously disbelieve that those here who've expressed the opinion that O'Malley was on par with someone who murdered 6 million innocent souls are being truthfull. No one in their right mind would seriously take such a preposterous position.

I mean, Campy never said that the world lost a tremendous person when Hitler died...and never said that the world would be a better place with more people like Adolf Hitler... that would've been outrageous... but he DID say it about Walter O'Malley.

I guarantee that no one here does seriously believe that. While O'Malley may have brought a lot more direct pain into some of their lives, please give the Dodgers' fans some credit for having a sense of perspective and great deal more intelligence than that.

[donzblock]

Let's get real here, boys and girls.

Comparing O'Malley to Hitler is odious.

He was a calculating businessman, who did all that he could to line his pockets, not caring about the pain his decision brought to Dodger fans, or about the result to Brooklyn and NYC.

But he put no one in ovens and ran no concentration camps.

This from someone who is no admirer of the late Walter.

Perspective, my children!
But dad, surely you know that the kind of juxtaposition you are responding to is an example of irony. Shouldn't a 21st-century person be able to detect and understand irony? Shouldn't anybody be allowed to use irony? Isn't irony still allowed in this republic? Are you anticipating that irony will become unconstitutional once Alito is confirmed? Will satire be outlawed? Do you have a set of rules that we all should follow if we wish to satirize a famous person? Would you like to spell out those rules so that we may attempt to apply them to Walter O'Malley?

And why did you neglect the Stalin figure in the card game? Isn't it also true that O'Malley never threw anybody into a gulag? Isn't it also true that O'Malley did not liquidate Branch Rickey or make him a non-person? Wasn't it terribly wrong to imply that O'Malley was cut from the same cloth as Uncle Joe? My goodness, whatever possessed that trio of writers to make up that joke about the three most evil men of the 20th century? Should we make it a crime to laugh at that joke? Perhaps Peter O'Malley ought to be persuaded to file suit against Hamill, Newfeld, etc., and anybody else who dares to laugh at it or repeat it. If Peter makes it a class action suit, perhaps you could join and reap the benefits.

But the main objection that EFG has to the joke is that O'Malley and Hitler are significantly different. Using that logic, we would have to outlaw all cartoons. After all, Dumbo and a real elephant are significantly different. Also, if a real rooster swallows a bomb, he will explode and die; Foghorn Leghorn is indestructable. And all skits on SNL would have to be consigned to the fire. The real Elizabeth Taylor came close but did not actually choke to death on a chicken bone. John Belushi in Liz drag dies in the skit. Sid Caesar's real voice was not falsetto; however, in a skit, he speaks almost entirely in falsetto. What an awful thing to do to the audience. Think of how confused the viewers must have been!

So how can the character of Walter O'Malley be dealt with so that we can maintain what EFG refers to as "perspective"? And how will this "perspective" benefit 55 chmps in his attempts to educate his friends about the Brooklyn Dodgers?

[55 chmps]

By now, 55 chmps' contemporaries should have absorbed enough knowledge from their mentor to be able to discuss intelligently how O'Malley in hell will play his cards.

Wow, this is great stuff. I should just send this to all my friends. Thanx guys, this is great. But u can keep goin if you want to :)

[donzblock]

Wow, this is great stuff. I should just send this to all my friends. Thanx guys, this is great. But u can keep goin if you want to :)
Are you going to send all of it or selected parts? Are your friends great readers, or do they have short attention spans? Do you have a strategy for getting their attention? What is at stake here is the memory of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

[tonypug]

55 Chmps, I bet you never expected this kind of respose to your initial post.

[Elvis]

But dad, surely you know that the kind of juxtaposition you are responding to is an example of irony. Shouldn't a 21st-century person be able to detect and understand irony? Shouldn't anybody be allowed to use irony? Isn't irony still allowed in this republic? Are you anticipating that irony will become unconstitutional once Alito is confirmed? Will satire be outlawed? Do you have a set of rules that we all should follow if we wish to satirize a famous person? Would you like to spell out those rules so that we may attempt to apply them to Walter O'Malley?

And why did you neglect the Stalin figure in the card game? Isn't it also true that O'Malley never threw anybody into a gulag? Isn't it also true that O'Malley did not liquidate Branch Rickey or make him a non-person? Wasn't it terribly wrong to imply that O'Malley was cut from the same cloth as Uncle Joe? My goodness, whatever possessed that trio of writers to make up that joke about the three most evil men of the 20th century? Should we make it a crime to laugh at that joke? Perhaps Peter O'Malley ought to be persuaded to file suit against Hamill, Newfeld, etc., and anybody else who dares to laugh at it or repeat it. If Peter makes it a class action suit, perhaps you could join and reap the benefits.

But the main objection that EFG has to the joke is that O'Malley and Hitler are significantly different. Using that logic, we would have to outlaw all cartoons. After all, Dumbo and a real elephant are significantly different. Also, if a real rooster swallows a bomb, he will explode and die; Foghorn Leghorn is indestructable. And all skits on SNL would have to be consigned to the fire. The real Elizabeth Taylor came close but did not actually choke to death on a chicken bone. John Belushi in Liz drag dies in the skit. Sid Caesar's real voice was not falsetto; however, in a skit, he speaks almost entirely in falsetto. What an awful thing to do to the audience. Think of how confused the viewers must have been!

So how can the character of Walter O'Malley be dealt with so that we can maintain what EFG refers to as "perspective"? And how will this "perspective" benefit 55 chmps in his attempts to educate his friends about the Brooklyn Dodgers?

The context of the quote in question wasn't satirical, it was literal. (See post #76) The "spin" interpretaion dance you're attempting to perform doesn't hold water when compared to the facts, as usual. Modern "educators" seem to have the same problem as some modern "news" programs -- instead of presenting the facts and letting the students/viewers form their own opinions, they are compelled to add commentary and cherry-pick certain facts in an attempt to further a personal agenda.

Why not let his friends find their own "perspective" after just giving them facts? Is O'Malley widely considered greedy and a villian? Yes. But he's just as widely considered a visionary and innovator.

From the unbiased Wikipedia:

Real estate businessman Walter O'Malley had acquired majority ownership of the team in 1950, when he bought the shares of his co-owner Branch Rickey. Before long he was working to buy new land in Brooklyn to build a more accessible and better arrayed ballpark than Ebbets Field. Beloved as it was, Ebbets Field had grown old and was not well-served by infrastructure, to the point where the most pennant-competitive team in the National League couldn't sell the park out even in the heat of a pennant race.

New York City building czar Robert Moses, however, sought to force O'Malley into using a site in Flushing Meadows, Queens (the future site for Shea Stadium, where today's New York Mets play). Moses' vision involved a city-built, city-owned park, which was greatly at odds with O'Malley's real-estate savvy. When it became clear to O'Malley that he wasn't going to be allowed to buy any suitable land in Brooklyn, he began thinking elsewhere.

When the Los Angeles city fathers attended the 1955 World Series looking to entice a team to move to the City of Angels, they weren't even thinking of the Dodgers. Their original target was the Washington Senators (who would in fact move to Minnesota in 1961). At the same time, O'Malley was looking for a contingency in case Moses and other New York politicians refused to let him build the Brooklyn stadium he wanted. O'Malley sent word to the Los Angeles officials at the Series that he was interested in talking. Los Angeles offered him what New York would not: a chance to buy land suitable for building a new ballpark.

Meanwhile, New York Giants owner Horace Stoneham was having similar difficulty finding a replacement for his antiquated home stadium, and the two archrival teams moved out to the West Coast together. On April 18, 1958, the Dodgers played their first game in Los Angeles, defeating the San Francisco Giants, 6-5, before 78,672 fans at the Coliseum.

There has been much controversy over the move of the Dodgers to California, perhaps more than over any other franchise move of that era. Walter O'Malley, in particular, is described as villainous by some and admirable by others. Certainly he demonstrated some measure of selfishness and greed, but the same is also true of the New York City politicians who opposed him. Both sides were quite stubborn, and fatally misjudged each other. It should also be noted that Brooklyn had declined in many ways, under various social pressures, and was a much less desirable location for a baseball team than it had been. In fact, both sides in the stadium dispute proposed to remove the Dodgers from Brooklyn (Moses' plan for a team in Flushing Meadows was realized several years later, with little alteration, in the New York Mets). O'Malley also deserves credit as a visionary. Until 1958, St. Louis had generally been the westernmost outpost of Major League Baseball, whereas 12 of baseball's 30 teams now have their homes farther west. O'Malley was primarily concerned with making himself very rich (which he did), and certainly he broke the heart of many a New Yorker, but his move also helped lead the game of baseball to greater prominence and prosperity.

[MATHA531]

Elvis...

After mulling over this for a day, I am currently in London BTW and have no access to a computer 24/7, I thought back on all your posts and it seems to me you are very reactive and not very proactive when it comes to this topic.

So to give the young people who started the thread a bit of perspective, why not without any of the hyperbole, explain why what O'Malley did was a beneficial thing and the right thing to do.

I would love to hear somebody try to justify what happened who truly is aware of some if not all of the facts. And I am sure the young people will be glad to hear a different perspective.

[MATHA531]

But he's just as widely considered a visionary and innovator.



Oh yeah...by whom outside the organization masquerading as the Dodgers playing on the left coast.

[MATHA531]

Just because the article is in wikipedia, doesn't make it so...these articles are written by contributors. The thing about the NYC politicians omits the fact that O'Malley's demands were for them to condemn land owned by a private organization which was clearly illegal under NYS law....he made this "offer" only to try to protect his place in history.....

It was greed and pursuit of the almighty buck by this banker lawyer (or is it lawyer banker?) that deprived Brooklyn of its baseball team forever and ever.

And the fact about Brooklyn no longer being a desirable place...well why don't you go visit Park Slope less than 1/2 a mile from Ebbets Field and see what Brooklyn is like.

[donzblock]

Elvis might also like to visit Sheepshead Bay, Brighton Beach, Brooklyn Heights, Midwood, to name a few. Brooklyn in decline? Utter nonsense.

[donzblock]

The context of the quote in question wasn't satirical, it was literal. (See post #76) The "spin" interpretaion dance you're attempting to perform doesn't hold water when compared to the facts, as usual.

Quote #76 does not belong to me; your misleading response makes it seem as if it does. However, Quote #76 does end with the joke, and that joke is not presented literally. The joke is presented as a joke; as such, it has built-in irony. "Ironic" does not mean "literal." Consequently, the one who is spinning is you, Elvis. In fact, you are spinning so quickly that you have been unable to emerge from your clock.

Since you do not specify precisely what is being spun, I will guess that you are suggesting that I literally meant that O'Malley is as evil as Hitler and Stalin. If that is the case, then you seriously need to take a few courses in literature, specifically those with a heavy dose of Jonathan Swift. (Unfortunately, you will have to take such a course with one of the "modern educators" you are so disenchanted with. Exactly what is it in your background that allows you to generalize with such confidence about all modern educators?)

You would also be wise to rethink the implications of your philosophy, one that would extend forgiveness to the likes of a Goebbels, Goering, Mengele, and Hitler. I believe you were being literal about that. I could not detect an ounce of irony or satire when you made that statement.

Regarding the negative view that Brooklyn Dodger fans persist in having of Walter O'Malley, that is a fact of life that 55 chmps must convey to his contemporaries if they are to acquire an accurate view of the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

[strummer]

Wikpedia is an encyclopedia of information built by voluntary contributors subject to some editing by a chosen few (also volunteers). Therefore it is no surprise that you will find opinioons expressed in the articles. They are the opinions of the authors. They are not proven facts. Wikpedia articles are no more correct, nor, in fact, no more objective, than the posts on this forum.

BTW, to say that both sides wanted to move the Dodgers out of Brooklyn is as false as you can be. Moses may have wanted Queens and O'Malley after a while wanted LA, but there were plenty of people who wanted Brooklyn including inept and incompetent NYC politicians and elected officials. Even O'Malley at first wanted a different location, but in Brooklyn.

[Elvis]

Quote #76 does not belong to me; your misleading response makes it seem as if it does. However, Quote #76 does end with the joke, and that joke is not presented literally. The joke is presented as a joke; as such, it has built-in irony. "Ironic" does not mean "literal." Consequently, the one who is spinning is you, Elvis. In fact, you are spinning so quickly that you have been unable to emerge from your clock.

Since you do not specify precisely what is being spun, I will guess that you are suggesting that I literally meant that O'Malley is as evil as Hitler and Stalin. If that is the case, then you seriously need to take a few courses in literature, specifically those with a heavy dose of Jonathan Swift. (Unfortunately, you will have to take such a course with one of the "modern educators" you are so disenchanted with. Exactly what is it in your background that allows you to generalize with such confidence about all modern educators?)

You would also be wise to rethink the implications of your philosophy, one that would extend forgiveness to the likes of a Goebbels, Goering, Mengele, and Hitler. I believe you were being literal about that. I could not detect an ounce of irony or satire when you made that statement.

Regarding the negative view that Brooklyn Dodger fans persist in having of Walter O'Malley, that is a fact of life that 55 chmps must convey to his contemporaries if they are to acquire an accurate view of the history of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Dude, get over yourself :laugh Don't you know when you're being taken for a ride?

[donzblock]

Dude, get over yourself :laugh Don't you know when you're being taken for a ride?
You're part of the pavement, and you're taking someone for a ride?

[Elvis]

You're part of the pavement, and you're taking someone for a ride?

--------- ;) ---------

[55 chmps]

Are you going to send all of it or selected parts? Are your friends great readers, or do they have short attention spans? Do you have a strategy for getting their attention? What is at stake here is the memory of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

Select parts. There's nothing at stake. They don't know anything anyway. I'm just tryin to spread the Dodger history and nostalgia

[55 chmps]

55 Chmps, I bet you never expected this kind of respose to your initial post.

No not really. :laugh

[tonypug]

No not really. :laugh
Maybe if you offered your contemoraries a trip to Nathans, they would be easier to convert. It can't hurt.

[Elvis]

Maybe if you offered your contemoraries a trip to Nathans, they would be easier to convert. It can't hurt.

Good idea there. Nathan's mustard is so good I put it on ice cream.:D

[tonypug]

Good idea there. Nathan's mustard is so good I put it on ice cream.:D
Hey finally we agree on something Elvis. I prefer my mustard on Hot Dogs, on ice cream I like hot fudge. Are there still any Jahns Ice Cream Parlors around ?

[MATHA531]

You mean you want a kitchen sink????

There is, I believe, only 1 Jahn's left and I think it is in Queens.....

BTW do you guys like mustard as well as ketchup on your hamburgers.? You know years ago when McDonald's first came to New York City, they had to get special permission from the national office to not automatically put mustard on the hamburgers as well as ketchup. ugh.

But at least the thread has lightened up a bit.

[tonypug]

You mean you want a kitchen sink????

There is, I believe, only 1 Jahn's left and I think it is in Queens.....

BTW do you guys like mustard as well as ketchup on your hamburgers. You know years ago when they McDonald's first came to New York City, they had to get special permission from the national office to not automatically put mustard on the hamburgers as well as ketchup. ugh.

But at least the thread has lightened up a bit.
I'm ready to jump on a plane right now, but I will need some help with the kitchen sink. My first trip down south, I was shocked to see that they put mustard on hamburgers and ketchup on hot dogs. Now 55chmps can take his friends to Jahns, share a kitchen sink, and talk about the Brooklyn Dodgers. I thought i would throw that in , that way we are staying on topic, I think.

[Elvis]

BTW do you guys like mustard as well as ketchup on your hamburgers?

I do. I'm a mustard freak. I think I've got at least 5 different kinds in the fridge and cupboard at any given time. A few months ago I discovered Nathan's Mustard -- it's my new all-around favorite.

Oh, and ketchup belongs on french fries, not hot dogs! Do you kids hear that? That's what's wrong with your generation! :laugh

[DODGER DEB]

I'm ready to jump on a plane right now, but I will need some help with the kitchen sink. My first trip down south, I was shocked to see that they put mustard on hamburgers and ketchup on hot dogs. Now 55chmps can take his friends to Jahns, share a kitchen sink, and talk about the Brooklyn Dodgers. I thought i would throw that in , that way we are staying on topic, I think.

MATHA531, I believe the original JAHN'S is still on Lefferts Blvd in Richmond Hill. I am not sure about the one on Queens Blvd.

Tonyp, you will have to explain, for those not in the know about such things, just what the "kitchen sink" is, and how it relates to enhancing one's knowledge of OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS.

c.

[55 chmps]

I do. I'm a mustard freak. I think I've got at least 5 different kinds in the fridge and cupboard at any given time. A few months ago I discovered Nathan's Mustard -- it's my new all-around favorite.

Oh, and ketchup belongs on french fries, not hot dogs! Do you kids hear that? That's what's wrong with your generation! :laugh

Yes Elvis 9045 ketchup should only be of french fries.

[tonypug]

MATHA531, I believe the original JAHN'S is still on Lefferts Blvd in Richmond Hill. I am not sure about the one on Queens Blvd.

Tonyp, you will have to explain, for those not in the know about such things, just what the "kitchen sink" is, and how it relates to enhancing one's knowledge of OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS.

c.
A Kitchens sink was a kids dream, tons of ice cream and toppings. Eating it by yourself was not a reality. But what a perfect way to talk about that day's Brooklyn Dodger game, by shareing a kitchen sink with some friends. My personal favorite from Jahn's was the Tall in the Saddle. A trip to Nathans before the game, going to Ebbets Field, and then a trip to Jahns after the game, was the perfect day, and always my request for my birthday. At Nathans mustard went on the Hot Dogs and Ketchup if necessary went on the fries. In my opinion Nathans fries do not need ketchup.

[55 chmps]

It's been a long time since the last post, so I just want to fill all who commented here that i've had some success in spreading some Dodger culture to a younger generation. Today i saw a kid actually wearing a Brooklyn Dodger hat and another kid was wearing a Carl Furillo road uniform. I was very excited. :laugh

[Shotgun Shuba]

A Furillo jersey?! That is hard core. That's like walking around with a Preacher Roe jersey. Glad to hear it.

[EdmondsFan#1]

I'm 13 and I know about the Brooklyn Dodgers, and have knew about them for quite a while. I also don't consider myself a dummy when it comes to other historical subjects in baseball either.

I forgive teens for not knowing that there was such a team as the Brooklyn Dodgers because most kids in this generation are concentrated on more fast-paced sports like basketball and football. Yay for A.D.D.

[AutographCollector]

When coworkers and I discuss "old time" baseball I mention the NY Giants. There is always somebody that corrects me and says "The NY Giants are a football team, and NEVER were a baseball team." :rolleyes:

[strummer]

You might want to ask questions of the one wearing a "Furillo" jersey. Did it in any way indicate it was a Brooklyn Dodger jersey? I don't think Mitchell and Ness made replicas of Furillo's jersey, though they did for several others. Remember, no names on the back, and only "Dodgers" on the front, unless it was an older "away" uniform, which did say "Brooklyn" on the front for a number of years in the 1940's and Furillo was on the team from 1946.
But more probable is that it was a Mitchell and Ness replica of a Steve Garvey uniform who also sported number six. If this was a kid, it might have been originally obtained by his father in honor of his boyhood hero and then handed to his son.

[Mad Guru]

What part of "stick to the topic of THIS thread" do you have trouble understanding, ELvis9045? The topic, in case you forgot it, is how to carry on the memory of OUR BROOKLYN DODGERS to the present generation. IT has NOTHING to do with that left coast group.

NOW, should you care to continue to post on this thread, then I expect you adhere to the warnings that have been given.

c.

I think he may be confused by all the font changes.

[tonypug]

You might want to ask questions of the one wearing a "Furillo" jersey. Did it in any way indicate it was a Brooklyn Dodger jersey? I don't think Mitchell and Ness made replicas of Furillo's jersey, though they did for several others. Remember, no names on the back, and only "Dodgers" on the front, unless it was an older "away" uniform, which did say "Brooklyn" on the front for a number of years in the 1940's and Furillo was on the team from 1946.
But more probable is that it was a Mitchell and Ness replica of a Steve Garvey uniform who also sported number six. If this was a kid, it might have been originally obtained by his father in honor of his boyhood hero and then handed to his son.
Strummer, I was thinking, the same thing. But its also a perfect way for 55chmps to educate him about Furillo.

[tonypug]

I'm 13 and I know about the Brooklyn Dodgers, and have knew about them for quite a while. I also don't consider myself a dummy when it comes to other historical subjects in baseball either.

I forgive teens for not knowing that there was such a team as the Brooklyn Dodgers because most kids in this generation are concentrated on more fast-paced sports like basketball and football. Yay for A.D.D.
If you are interested in a sport, its always more enjoyable to know the history of the sport. Too many fans today, only want to know yesterdays score, who's playing today and tomorrows schedule. It's nice to know at your age you also know your baseball history.

[BayRidgeBrooklyn]

I've sometimes wondered how the individual Dodger players felt in 1957 about leaving the old ballpark in Flatbush for the glamour and sunshine of L.A.

While I agree that O'Malley's shameless move was motivated by pure greed, I've never heard of any players complaining. It could be that they were powerless to speak out against the boss. Leaving Brooklyn was not their decision, so they bore none of the blame. The careers of several ex-Bums soared in L.A. (Drysdale, Koufax).

In 1953, when O'Malley fired Brooklyn's prized broadcaster Red Barber (for simply asking how much he would be paid for working the World series), I think Vin Scully learned the value of being O'Malley's lap dog. Hence, his support for O'Malley's HOF induction.

Like any good dictator, O'Malley gathered around him only "yes men," and discarded anyone he couldn't use....like Brooklyn fans.

[jaykay]

I'm trying this one again after a year or two of no one else remembering (like the song Gladys Goodding played when the Braves took the field). Perhaps someone who missed it, or wasn't around here when it was first mentioned, will recall that...

...in addition to its extensive assortment of international cuisine, Nathan's in Coney Island offered, on a bun, a Chow Mein sandwich. This was during the 1950s, and it didn't stay on the menu for long, but once swallowed (that was the tough part), never forgotten. I'm not making this up. Think about it: I mean, what's wrong with chow mein on a sandwich? No, I don't recall whether it was chicken chow mein, or pork, or subgum. But there really was.....I had it - and I lived to tell the tale.

If this is too difficult for you rookies, maybe you can be the one to remember which song Gladys played when the Braves came onto the field. Take your choice.

[Shotgun Shuba]

I've sometimes wondered how the individual Dodger players felt in 1957 about leaving the old ballpark in Flatbush for the glamour and sunshine of L.A.

While I agree that O'Malley's shameless move was motivated by pure greed, I've never heard of any players complaining. It could be that they were powerless to speak out against the boss. Leaving Brooklyn was not their decision, so they bore none of the blame. The careers of several ex-Bums soared in L.A. (Drysdale, Koufax).

In 1953, when O'Malley fired Brooklyn's prized broadcaster Red Barber (for simply asking how much he would be paid for working the World series), I think Vin Scully learned the value of being O'Malley's lap dog. Hence, his support for O'Malley's HOF induction.

Like any good dictator, O'Malley gathered around him only "yes men," and discarded anyone he couldn't use....like Brooklyn fans.


What O'Malley did was wrong. Nobody disputes that and baseball is the worse for it. However, people tend to respond positively to those who treat them well. Scully was not a "yes" man and should not be bashed. He is the finest play by play man of the last 50 years. Scully was a New York guy but I doubt any one of us would be so rightous as to quit a job we love, with a great company, just to be loyal to a nebulous entity. Walter was very good to Vin and he never forgot it and who knows about their personal friendship, there is more to life than baseball. I really can't question the loyalties of any of the Dodger organization of those years. I do know that NOBODY ever said, "thank goodness we are outta there". It's just a sad chapter. A sad chapter, indeed.

[BayRidgeBrooklyn]

My generation sux too.Living in baltimore born in 1961.When i was 10 years old in 1971 my dad wouldnt allow me watch the colts in memorial stadium.He told me im not old enough to watch a football game at the stadium its for adults.He said when im 18 hell take me to a colt game he said if i wanna watch the colts i cant watch em on TV.In 1979 i he took me as promised but then the colts werent winners anymore they completely sucked.Then that last year in 1983 i became a colts season ticket holder and then owner bob irsay took the team to indianapolis.I even ask dad about moving to indianapolis leaving baltimore.Well he wanted to stay cause he was being paid good at general moters.So im stuck watching the orioles instead of the colts.Now we got the ravens and its not the same without the colts here.I wished god would have allowed me to be born in 1945 so i can watch johnny unitas at memorial stadium.



Please Dodger Deb, so we may be spared the moronic ramblings of fools who stubbornly insist on butchering our English language, can you find a way to BOUNCE them from this forum? Thank you.

[VIBaseball]

Please Dodger Deb, so we may be spared the moronic ramblings of fools who stubbornly insist on butchering our English language, can you find a way to BOUNCE them from this forum? Thank you.

The unlamented steveox has not posted on Baseball Fever in just over a year, BRB (although I recall somebody suspecting that he had reappeared under a new name). Yes, his posts were truly dire.

Meanwhile, I was tickled by jaykay's culinary contribution, so I decided to look up some more about the Chow Mein Sandwich. Nathan's is mentioned in this piece; at least several years ago, it was still big in Fall River, MA:

http://www.flavorandfortune.com/dataaccess/article.php?ID=179

And apparently it is still to be had at Nathan's of Coney Island!

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/308150

[jaykay]

The unlamented steveox has not posted on Baseball Fever in just over a year, BRB (although I recall somebody suspecting that he had reappeared under a new name). Yes, his posts were truly dire.

Meanwhile, I was tickled by jaykay's culinary contribution, so I decided to look up some more about the Chow Mein Sandwich. Nathan's is mentioned in this piece; at least several years ago, it was still big in Fall River, MA:

http://www.flavorandfortune.com/dataaccess/article.php?ID=179

And apparently it is still to be had at Nathan's of Coney Island!

http://www.chowhound.com/topics/308150

Hey, VI Baseball, a thousand thanks, as we say in China. I was beginning to think I had dreamed the whole thing. I agree that the current price is ridiculous. A nickel is about what the ingredients were worth, inflation, deflation or stagflation notwithstanding. It may have been the smell of the seaside that got my chops salivating, but how about those plates of warm biscuits at Lundy's? I can see the butter melting into them, and a moment later running down my chin and dripping on to my pants. What, me worry? I was still living at home, and my mother did the laundry.
Thanks again. I owe you a cup of chowder for your excellent research.

[MattM]

Enjoy them while you have got them. Pro sports are a business. I can only think of a few franchises that are untouchable, and I am not even sure about them.

Bears
Canadiens
Leafs
Red Sox
Cubs
Cowboys?


There are many "foundation" teams I could envision moving: Yankees, Cards, Dodgers, Niners, Steelers, Raiders(obviously), Dolphins Etc. ad nauseaum.

Honestly, I think you could add the Rangers to that as well (NHL). Actually, all of the original 6 in the NHL.

[MattM]

I seriously disbelieve that those here who've expressed the opinion that O'Malley was on par with someone who murdered 6 million innocent souls are being truthfull. No one in their right mind would seriously take such a preposterous position.

I mean, Campy never said that the world lost a tremendous person when Hitler died...and never said that the world would be a better place with more people like Adolf Hitler... that would've been outrageous... but he DID say it about Walter O'Malley.

Yes, comparing Walter O'Malley to Hitler is extreme, but there certainly some merit when people say that Brooklyn was never the same after the Dodgers left. I might be mistaken, but O'Malley never did return to the borough, since so many people wanted his head for what he did. He might have been a good person to the people in the franchise who didn't try to undermine him, but he was nothing more than Judas in a business suit and glasses to the Flatbush flock.