Is there a woman ballplayer better than a man ballplayer?

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

What do you guys think?
Once I saw on This Week In Baseball a woman all-star "softball"(close enough) pitcher strike out Dimitri Young, Jim Thome and a couple of other sluggers.



Do you think if there was an exhibition game between: Woman All-Stars and the Men-All-Stars(MLB) who would win?:dance

[Captain Cold Nose]

What do you guys think?
Once I saw on This Week In Baseball a woman all-star "softball"(close enough) pitcher strike out Dimitri Young, Jim Thome and a couple of other sluggers.



Do you think if there was an exhibition game between: Woman All-Stars and the Men-All-Stars(MLB) who would win?:dance
It depends what they play. If they're playing by softabll rules, and Jennie Finch is able to pitch as she did when she struck all those batters in a non-competitive venue, it might be closer than if she had to throw overhand from 60'6".

[Brian McKenna]

if your question is:
Is there a woman ballplayer better than a man ballplayer?
then yes, i'm sure on an individual basis there are excellent female ballplayers

if your question is:
Do you think if there was an exhibition game between: Woman All-Stars and the Men-All-Stars(MLB) who would win?
then no, a men's all-star team would win in all likelihood - pitching, as always, would be the key

[trosmok]

There were two women here that were good enough to play against the men in the negro leagues. Tori Stone was as smooth an infielder as any man and no slouch with the stick. I have met and chatted with Mamie "Peanuts" Johnson, and she managed to whack a solid single through the box off Satchel Paige the first time she faced him. Not many people can honestly say that, including Ruth, Gehrig, and Foxx, but she said she was just trying to make good contact and not get killed.

[Brian McKenna]

Pearl Barrett
Isabel Baxter
Connie Morgan

also played in the negro leagues

[ReignInBlood]

Are women allowed on MLB? If they were on the Negro Leagues maybe they could be on MLB. Not likely, but still...

[Cubsfan97]

That would be interesting to see a female ballplayer in the MLB. She would have to be a kickass player though.

[ReignInBlood]

She'd have to own a private shower though:D

[Brian McKenna]

Are women allowed on MLB? If they were on the Negro Leagues maybe they could be on MLB. Not likely, but still...

no, women were barred from the major leagues by ford frick in june 1952 - it still stands

[ReignInBlood]

Did any woman made the big leagues before that rule was instated?

[Brian McKenna]

no woman ever played in the majors - the rule was enacted in response to:

Eleanor Engle, a softball star, was signed by the Harrisburg Senators of the Interstate League on June 21, 1952.

[Guerrero Mad Man 2715]

What do you guys think?
Once I saw on This Week In Baseball a woman all-star "softball"(close enough) pitcher strike out Dimitri Young, Jim Thome and a couple of other sluggers.



Do you think if there was an exhibition game between: Woman All-Stars and the Men-All-Stars(MLB) who would win?:dance

Pitcher for Arizona: Jennie Finch

[E.Banks#14]

Pitcher for Arizona: Jennie Finch

Pitcher for Chicago Bandits: Jennie Finch

Married To

Pitcher for Arizona (Diamondbacks): Casey Daigle

[charlesblalack@yahoo.com]

Jennie Finch>Jose Lima

[sandlot]

For those of us who know nothing about the women who played in the Negro Leagues, nor know anything about Jenny Finch, please tell more or point to where we can find it. And what in the world was Ford Frick's problem beyond misogyny? It's hard to believe that rule could withstand a court challenge today. Also, on an earlier thread (now gone) there was mention of the woman who struck out Ted Williams, not once but twice. BTW, I don't know where CuriousBoston and VtSoxFan are, but I miss them and hope they haven't disappeared in dismay.

[Ichiro51]

Ila Borders struck out some guy during her short lived minor or indy league career. She was better than that hitter.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Jennie Finch>Jose Lima

I totally agree. With an ERA such as Lima's, at least the women have something to brag about!:D

[Brian McKenna]

not to state the obvious - finch is a softball pitcher and those ladies can bring it - i enjoy watching them play - but that is not a skill adaptable to baseball

[JeepingBaseball]

actually, truth be told... one women made it, technically. Her name was Ila Borders. There are books about her as well. She made the minor leagues and played less than 5 years ago, but never made it to the "Big Show" because of society setbacks. She retired from baseball on June 30, 2000

[bondsgirrrl]

if your question is:
Is there a woman ballplayer better than a man ballplayer?
then yes, i'm sure on an individual basis there are excellent female ballplayers

if your question is:
Do you think if there was an exhibition game between: Woman All-Stars and the Men-All-Stars(MLB) who would win?
then no, a men's all-star team would win in all likelihood - pitching, as always, would be the key
Yeah I would agree with this.

[WonderMonkey]

It depends what they play. If they're playing by softabll rules, and Jennie Finch is able to pitch as she did when she struck all those batters in a non-competitive venue, it might be closer than if she had to throw overhand from 60'6".

This depends on if they were playing the game cold or if they had a chance to go through an offseason, spring training, etc. Given equal opportunity I would say the best men would beat the best women. Skill-wise the top women are as good as the top men but due to physical differences this gives the men the edge.

This gap is slowly closing as more and more attention is being paid to youth females in softball (and other things) but again, since there are physical differences I don't think there will ever be equality.

[JeepingBaseball]

I dont know. Men have a certain level of strengths that a women cant really match. Then you have women who's strength is stronger then men. Baseball is a bad comparrison of the strengths between the sexes.

The men might throw harder or hit harder.. but a woman might be quicker on her feet for base running, might be a better stealer in terms of body movement of that extra inch needed to avoid the tag. Men plow into 2nd like a bulldozer. I have seen women slide, then turn, and still reach base safely. I have yet to see a man do that. For either sexes, it's still not an easy task.

I could very well be wrong, but that's my experience I've witness.

[SABR Steve]

For those of us who know nothing about the women who played in the Negro Leagues, nor know anything about Jenny Finch, please tell more or point to where we can find it. And what in the world was Ford Frick's problem beyond misogyny? It's hard to believe that rule could withstand a court challenge today. Also, on an earlier thread (now gone) there was mention of the woman who struck out Ted Williams, not once but twice. BTW, I don't know where CuriousBoston and VtSoxFan are, but I miss them and hope they haven't disappeared in dismay.

That's a little over the top. Remember it was 1952, not the so-called "enlightened age." Also remember the ban still exists today. Personally I wouldn't ban women; if they can play, they should be able to play.

I don't know about the courts though. Look what they've done to eminent domain.

[SABR Steve]

actually, truth be told... one women made it, technically. Her name was Ila Borders. There are books about her as well. She made the minor leagues and played less than 5 years ago, but never made it to the "Big Show" because of society setbacks. She retired from baseball on June 30, 2000

I think it was Randy Jones, the ex Padre pitcher, who said she wasn't good enough for the majors.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Women in general are much smaller than men, especailly when it come to world class sports. Illa Borders is 5'10" and 165 pounds. She's roughly the same size as Pedro Martinez. Yet by women's standards she is a large woman. It's the same reason Michelle Wie can play PGA events. She is 6'2" and probably ways around 160 lbs. She has the size and strength to drive with the men.

I doubt any woman could really play at the major league and have any real success. From an objective perspective did Borders really have major league potential? That's the question. I'd like to see a women's professional baseball league, though.

[Clash City Rocker]

Body types arent everything. The girl who struck out Ruth and Gerhig was 130lbs and definitely shorter.

Ways a 'typically built' woman ballplayer could probably break into the bigs:

1 sidearm lefty specialist or reliever in general
2 utility/starting infielder (the Izturis bros are both in the 5'8" 150lb range)
3 starter, ichiro-like slap hitter (the guys only 5'9" 160lbs)
4 starting pitcher (must be a woman somewhere who can pull a 'Jamie Moyer')


I doubt the first woman player and even the first wave of players in the bigs would have to be an elite player or built to play 1B.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Body types arent everything. The girl who struck out Ruth and Gerhig was 130lbs and definitely shorter.

Ways a 'typically built' woman ballplayer could probably break into the bigs:

1 sidearm lefty specialist or reliever in general
2 utility/starting infielder (the Izturis bros are both in the 5'8" 150lb range)
3 starter, ichiro-like slap hitter (the guys only 5'9" 160lbs)
4 starting pitcher (must be a woman somewhere who can pull a 'Jamie Moyer')


I doubt the first woman player and even the first wave of players in the bigs would have to be an elite player or built to play 1B.
The softball pitchers striking out major leaguers doesn't really tell us much.

1. Major leaguers are not used to the underhand motion of softball pitchers

2. Softball pitchers are much closer than 60'6".

You put a softball pitcher back to 60'6" and I bet the outcome would be a lot different. You mention the Izturis boys are 5'8" but for a woman that is rather large. A woman that size would not have nowhere the quickness and agility as a man the same size.

[Brian McKenna]

i'm all for it - love to see a woman in pro ball

don't think she could match a prototype first baseman, catcher or third baseman nor could she probably be a righthanded pitcher - they're almost all over six feet and throw hard

she could probably weed her way through the system at the right position in the right organization - it would be great for the game

btw - jackie mitchell striking out ruth and gehrig was a stunt

[Clash City Rocker]

The softball pitchers striking out major leaguers doesn't really tell us much.

1. Major leaguers are not used to the underhand motion of softball pitchers

2. Softball pitchers are much closer than 60'6".

You put a softball pitcher back to 60'6" and I bet the outcome would be a lot different.

I dont know why the focus is on softball elements, because I didnt even mention it at all. If this is about Jackie Mitchell, then you might be mistaken because she pitched off the mound and like a typical sidearm pitcher would. I've read of nothing that allowed her special treatment against Ruth, Gerhig, and Lazzeri.

Most of the potential woman pros I've read played with the guys up into the College levels. I dont know of a woman thats made waves about breaking into pro ball that came from a softball backround. Jenny Finch's TWIB thing is definitely a stunt, but I dont think its particularly relevant anyway.


You mention the Izturis boys are 5'8" but for a woman that is rather large. A woman that size would not have nowhere the quickness and agility as a man the same size.

It would depend on the woman, wouldnt it? Plus, I wouldn't agree that 5'8" is "rather large". Its more like above average in female athletic ranks. 6'0"+ would be in the 'whoa, shes huge' territory. Even then, they could be willowy and quick...like I said, depends on the woman.

btw - jackie mitchell striking out ruth and gehrig was a stunt
It became a stunt because she was banned from pro ball. It's lightyears away from pulling an Eddie Gaedel, IMHO.

[Brian McKenna]

It became a stunt because she was banned from pro ball. It's lightyears away from pulling an Eddie Gaedel, IMHO.

not sure what you are saying - mitchell did not strike out ruth and gehrig in any sense of the argument - it was a hoax

not saying that she or other woman couldn't do it in competition - she could and did strike out men, she was trained by dazzy vance - didrikson toured with the house of david - lizzie stroud was coached by jack stivetts - maud nelson traveled for years - Lizzie Murphy from Rhode Island and Alta Weiss from Ohio were other early pros - peanut johnson pitched in the negro leagues - sunny dunlap pitched in d ball - ila borders pitched in the northern league

[WonderMonkey]

Body types arent everything. The girl who struck out Ruth and Gerhig was 130lbs and definitely shorter.

Ways a 'typically built' woman ballplayer could probably break into the bigs:

1 sidearm lefty specialist or reliever in general
2 utility/starting infielder (the Izturis bros are both in the 5'8" 150lb range)
3 starter, ichiro-like slap hitter (the guys only 5'9" 160lbs)
4 starting pitcher (must be a woman somewhere who can pull a 'Jamie Moyer')


I doubt the first woman player and even the first wave of players in the bigs would have to be an elite player or built to play 1B.

Agreed. Second base would be perfect.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

As I said I seriously doubt any woman can succeed at the major league level. Shoot about 99% of men can't compete at the major league level.

[Clash City Rocker]

not sure what you are saying - mitchell did not strike out ruth and gehrig in any sense of the argument - it was a hoax

Have a cite? This definitely isnt 'common knowledge' on the web, which often include pitch-by-pitch accounts.

As I said I seriously doubt any woman can succeed at the major league level. Shoot about 99% of men can't compete at the major league level.
Those 99% of men probably have 99% more oppurtunities than women to do so.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Those 99% of men probably have 99% more oppurtunities than women to do so.

I disagree. The reason women haven't made the major leagues is because they simply do not have the necessary skills to compete against men. Why don't more women compete against men on the PGA tour? Annika Sorenstam, the best female golfer in the world, tried it and compared against the PGA she is below average. However, I believe Michelle Wie may have a chance because she may have the necessary talent and skill to compete on the PGA. wheter she can actually win or even come close to win is yet to be seen.

[Brian McKenna]

Have a cite? This definitely isnt 'common knowledge' on the web, which often include pitch-by-pitch accounts.

.

it is common knowledge

if you're getting your baseball history from the internet than you are at a serious disadvantage - try a published work - read between the lines - add a well-rounded study of the game and common sense

did gehrig strike out on the straight pitches - yes - did the three muck it up for the reporters - yes - did reporters tell the story of the girl pitching phenom - yes - but it was all done with a wink - sorry to disillusion you but outside of the easter bunny and santa claus, baseball perpetuates more myths than any other facet of society

ask your self why was it ruth and gehrig and not left fielder chapman and shortstop lary back in 1931 - because it makes a bigger story - poof it worked - 70+ years later some are still being sucked in

the study of women professional baseball is an interesting one and i have done a good deal of research in this area - in fact, i am of the opionion that babe didrikson was the best all-around athlete of the 20th century - but it needs to be told accurately - i'm a backer of your cause - the cause is just but it is weaked by inaccuracies and falsehoods

mitchell got caught up in something that was bigger than herself - which is great because it gave her her 15-minutes but unfortunately her story is tainted - go on to another's to make the point

[Brian McKenna]

the next step for women at the major league level needs to come from umpire Ria Cortesio or assistant general manager kim ng - they have a time advantage over any player

i don't know where a potential female player is coming from - perhaps from abroad - but an earlier post said she wouldn't have to be an elite player - that is off base - that is exactly what she would need to be - she would have to play with males in high school and college (i doubt if mlb would even look at her unless she was tested in college), then she would have to enter a or rookie ball and work her way up - this is a minimum of 6-8 years from today - she would probably have legal battles along the way - and she would surely face a great deal of harassment - she would probably be best served getting an agent early to limit the harassment and help her capitalize where she can

[Iron Jaw]

Ila Borders struck out some guy during her short lived minor or indy league career. She was better than that hitter.

For that particular at-bat, anyway. ;)

[Iron Jaw]

The softball pitchers striking out major leaguers doesn't really tell us much.

1. Major leaguers are not used to the underhand motion of softball pitchers

2. Softball pitchers are much closer than 60'6".

You put a softball pitcher back to 60'6" and I bet the outcome would be a lot different. You mention the Izturis boys are 5'8" but for a woman that is rather large. A woman that size would not have nowhere the quickness and agility as a man the same size.

Placing a softball pitcher at 60-6 is one thing. But training for the particular sport is another. Baseball hitters train for the small-ball from 60-6, not the big ball from 40. I'm quite certain it wouldn't take MLB players long to train for adaption to the different game if they needed to.

The best softball pitcher of all-time was Eddie Feigner, of the King and His Court, who often did exhibitions against pro baseball players.http://www.kingandhiscourt.com/ I saw him do one in Bear's Stadium (that later became Mile-High Stadium) in Denver back in the Summer of 1967. A few members of the Bears, and their opponent, the Tulsa Oilers, batted against Eddie in between a double-header. One Bear, a slap-hitter named Ron Theobald (who had a short-lived, unspectacular MLB career with the Brewers), rapped four singles against Eddie. Eddie handled the power-types like Andy Kosco pretty easily though.

[SABR Steve]

I have met and chatted with Mamie "Peanuts" Johnson, and she managed to whack a solid single through the box off Satchel Paige the first time she faced him.

So did Alice "Lefty" Hohlmayer from "the League of Our Own."

[Rennie Stennett]

Jackie Mitchell, who at the age of 17 held a contract as a pitcher for the Chattanooga Lookouts of the Southern Association in 1931.

Babe Didrickson pitched for Cleveland in an exihibition game against New Orleans in 1934.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Women in general just don't possess the same agility, quickness, strength, and stamina to compete in the majors day in and day out. Not their fault, it's genetic. Having said that, baseball is a unique game in that it doesn't require the same physical traits as most other professional sports. Lightning in a bottle, perhaps a woman could have short term success, providing she isn't scared of the ball and has more quickness, strength, and natural ability than the average woman. It might need to be like a Russian woman all hopped up on roids or something. Or like that Ulga lady in Dodgeball, with the unibrow.

[LMBA_President]

This is a subject that can go back and forth with pros and cons. I would only say that if anyone has the ability to compete at that level they should have the right to. The MLB rule is very outdated to say the least.

I have a 13 year girl in our PONY league that threw a 7 inning no hit shutout in 2006. Had she not walked 2 batters it would have been a perfect game. In the 14yrs I have been with the league I've never even seen one of the guys accomplish anything close.:eek:

Also, I would also like to proudly mention that both Ila Borders and Jennie Finch are from La Mirada, Ca and grew up playing ball here. Way to go ladies!:D

[NotAboutEgo]

Women could make MLB if they were given all the same opportunities as men while playing baseball... from Little League all the way up to MLB. This debate has gone on in another discussion in this same section of the forum. For those who say women aren't as agile and quick and all that as males, you are completely wrong. The ONLY advantages men have over women are size and strength, which aren't the only/most important characteristics for baseball. You don't need to be 6'3" and weigh 225 lbs. to be able to meet a 95 MPH fastball or a MLB breaking ball with the bat. You don't need to be that big to be able to field a ball. You don't need to be a flame thrower to succeed as a pitcher. Anyone who watches baseball regularly should know these things.

What you need is skill, ability (not size and strength), motivation, mental acuity, good eyesight, enough quickness, hand-eye coordination, etc. None of this comes from size and strength. Hitting is about seeing the ball at the right time and being able to track it with your eyes all the way from the pitcher's hand to the plate, being mentally prepared to hit the ball, timing (which comes from the two I've just mentioned), having fast hands, loose wrists, adding enough torque from the hips, and solid mechanics.

Has anyone ever been told by a coach or an instructor that they need to bulk up to be able to hit or field a ball? Having more core strength will get you higher pitching velocities, as long as the rest of your mechanics are good, while pitching. But it doesn't necessarily mean you will be a successful pitcher. Pitching is more mental than physical. Unless you can over power every hitter in MLB, you need to have more ingredients to go along with your velocity. There are some MLB pitchers who can do it... the majority of the time... but there aren't a whole lot of them.

Core strength is going to help anyone in most any sport, but it's not the only ingredient that makes a ball player good.