Current Top 10 Catchers

[Yankee Legend]

I have decided to start a poll similar to the one in the history forum except use current players. This is to find the best players today at the variuos positions. I will do one for 1B, 2B, 3B, etc. To vote, simple list the top 10 catchers that are active in order from best (#1) to least (#10). The results will be tabulated after 2 weeks and will be announced on dec 23 @ 10 PM. The points will be alloted based on the player's ranking on each list (1st place gets 10, 2nd gets 9, 3rd gets 8, etc.)

Ok, so ill start off:

1. Jason Varitek
2. Ivan Rodriguez
3. Victor Martinez
4. Ramon Hernandez
5. Joe Mauer
6. Jason Kendall
7. Jorge Posada
8. Paul LoDuca
9. Michael Barrett
10. Bengie Molina

[Dasperp]

1. Victor Martinez
2. Jason Varitek
3. Joe Mauer
4. Jorge Posada
5. Michael Barrett
6. Ramon Hernandez
7. Bengie Molina
8. Javy Lopez
9. Mike Piazza
10. Mike Lieberthal

I know people are going to ask why i didn't include Pudge, so here is my reason. He had a .290 OBP last year. I don't care how good your defense is, that is just unnaceptable. And considering his weight loss, he is definitely under steroid suspicion.

[538280]

1.Victor Martinez-Good defense, and great offense. Best offensive catcher in the game.
2.Jason Varitek-Him and Martinez are on a plateau of their own with offesne, but his defense isn't that great
3.Joe Mauer-Young catcher with fabulous future ahead of him.
4.Jorge Posada-Declining, but still very solid
5.Brian Schneider-Good offense, just doesn't look good because of RFK. Also awesome defense and intangibles.
6.Mike Matheny-Best defensive catcher in the game
7.Michael Barrett-Like Varitek, but offense is a step lower
8.Jason LaRue-Ditto of Barrett
9.Bengie Molina-Would be top level offensive catcher if he was a bit more patient
10.Mike Piazza-Will probably be a heavy hitting DH next year

[538280]

Come on, guys. My positional polls over at the History forum are thriving with lots of ballots submitted, and you can't even get more than three? I know you can do better than this. It's not a hard thing to do, pick the 10 best catchers in the game today.

[BasEbaLlKnoItAll]

Top 10, not in order

Victor Martinez
Jorge Posada
Jason Varitek
Joe Mauer
Paul Lo Duca
Bengie Molina
Ramon Hernandez
Ivan Rodriguez
A.J. Pierzynski
Mike Matheny

[538280]

Top 10, not in order

Victor Martinez
Jorge Posada
Jason Varitek
Joe Mauer
Paul Lo Duca
Bengie Molina
Ramon Hernandez
Ivan Rodriguez
A.J. Pierzynski
Mike Matheny

I'm not running this poll, but it has to be in order to mean anything with this format.

[ThePeach]

1- Jason Varitek
2- Victor Martinez
3- Joe Mauer
4- Jorge Posada
5- Pudge
6- Bengie Molina
7- Ramon Hernadez
8- Paul Lo Duca
9- A.J. Pierzynski (sp?)
10- Mike Matheny

[Yankee Legend]

Top 10, not in order

Victor Martinez
Jorge Posada
Jason Varitek
Joe Mauer
Paul Lo Duca
Bengie Molina
Ramon Hernandez
Ivan Rodriguez
A.J. Pierzynski
Mike Matheny

the rules are that they have to be in order (otherwise that will be counted as your order)

[Brannu]

1. Mike Piazza - will retire as one of the greatest.
2. Ivan Rodriquez - will also retire as one of the greatest.
3. Jorge Posada - has been a force for The Yankees for years now.
4. Mike Matheny - I take defense, in a catcher, before offense.
5. Bengie Molina - same reasoning as above.
6. Jason Varitek - they're not stealing on him as much anymore.
7. Victor Martinez - defense needs to pick up ... offense will be great for years.
8. Paul Lo Duca - decent all around.
9. Yadier Molina - The Future.
10. Joe Mauer - The Future.

I put the guys with great careers first because I think they are due that level of respect. Mauer, Molina, Martinez ... they still have years of proving how good they really are. Martinez has done great at the plate (.380 after the all-star break), still has to show up and throw more runners out. Yadier may be the best defensive out of all of them and I believe that his hitting will get better also, especially if he listens to Pujols. I don't know much about Mauer, but, from a quick look at his numbers ... he will be great also.

[pacewon]

1. Victor Martinez
2. Jorge Posada
3. Jason Varitek
4. Joe Mauer
5. Michael Barrett
6. Ramon Hernandez
7. Bengie Molina
8. Javy Lopez
9. Mike Piazza
10. Mike Lieberthal

[charlesblalack@yahoo.com]

1 Victor Martinez- Best hitting catcher in MLB.
2 Joe Mauer- Led all MLB catchers in Win Shares, young and promising.
3 Jason Varitek- Great bat, bad glove
4 Michael Barret- Decent glove, very good bat.
5 Jorge Posada- Nice blend of hitting and fielding
6 Mike Matheny- Sub-par bat, out of this world with his glove
7 Jason Larue- Similar to Barret
8 Brian Schneider- Like Matheny but not as stellar with the glove
9 Bengie Molina- Nice blend of offense/defense
10 Brad Ausmus- Worst hitter of the bunch, glove puts him on the list

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

1-Victor Martinez
2- Ivan Rodriguez
3-Joe Mauer
4-Paul Lo Duca
5-(yay!) Brian Schneider
6-Ramon Hernandez
7-Jason Varitek
8-Mike Matheny
9-A.J. Pierzynski
10-Mike Lieberthal? Javy Lopez? Brad Ausmus?Bengie Molina?

[Dasperp]

Brannu, i'm pretty sure the poll is for who is the best right now. With those rules, i don't see how you could put Piazza and Pudge so high and Martinez so low.

[Dasperp]

Wilkerson, what are your reasons for not including Posada and for putting Pudge and his .290 OBP second?

[baseball junkie]

Okay, I'll list mine but I really don't think 10 catchers truly qualify as special players so my list might be slightly truncated.

1.) Ivan Rodriguez (first-ballot Hall of Famer)
2.) Bengie Molina (best defensive catcher in the game oh yeah and he hits)
3.) Joe Mauer (he's 22 think about that)
4.) Jason Varitek (it physically makes me sick to type that as a Yankee fan)
5.) Jorge Posada ('nough said)
6.) Victor Martinez (hits, doesn't do much else)

So that's it folks, I came up with six.

Coming on strong, however, is Yadier Molina, 23, who I believe is the younger brother of Bengie Molina.

Excluded: Mike Piazza and Javy Lopez as neither is really a catcher anymore, are they?

Now my list of the All-Over-rated Catchers:
1.) Jason Kendall (.321 SLG% in 601 AB last year, yeah that's kind of bad)
2.) Brad Ausmus (.255 career BA, I can't figure out what's "special" about him)
3.) A.J. Pierzynski (grounds into double plays almost as much as he gets branded a clubhouse cancer)
4.) Ramon Hernandez (Baltimore just bought a $27.5 million bag of goods. Hernandez has averaged 105 games played over the last two years. Hope Javy doesn't get too comfy over at first.)

[moviegeekjan]

1. Jason Varitek
2. Mike Matheny
3. Bengie Molina
4. Victor Martinez
5. Ramon Hernandez
6. Yadier Molina
7. Joe Mauer
8. Jorge Posada
9. Mike Piazza
10. Ivan Rodriquez

[Brannu]

Brannu, i'm pretty sure the poll is for who is the best right now. With those rules, i don't see how you could put Piazza and Pudge so high and Martinez so low.

Well, Pudge is still pretty good himself ... and is more than proven with both the bat and the glove. I think Mike is near retirement, but, his bat would still be good if put at first base. They are the best, I think, of the era that we are playing in. I think history counts for something. I think our younger catchers that we are currently really high on, really need to prove themselves over a longer period of time. If Martinez puts in another stellar year, I think he moves up on my list ... but, what happens if next year his hitting doesn't stick and his numbers sink (which his power numbers did this past year)?

There are tons of one and two year wonders that never really prove themselves over the long term. I'm just holding out a little while longer.

But, then ... yes ... if we are considering at the end of the 2005 season, without history or future ... then the list changes all together.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Wilkerson, what are your reasons for not including Posada and for putting Pudge and his .290 OBP second?

1) Why are you criticizing Brannu and myself?
2) Posada isn't that good. Seriously compare 2005 and 2004. It just makes me laugh!:laugh
3) Pudge, despite .290 OBP, is still one of the best.

[Dasperp]

1) Why are you criticizing Brannu and myself?
2) Posada isn't that good. Seriously compare 2005 and 2004. It just makes me laugh!
3) Pudge, despite .290 OBP, is still one of the best

I'm not criticizing, just trying to create discussion, isn't that what these boards are for?

Pudge's line last year was .276/.290/.444, while Posada's was .262/.352/.430

Do you think Pudge's defensive ability can make up for a 60 point difference in OBP? That would be like claiming that Neifi Perez's defense makes up for the offensive difference between him and Jeter. I think OBP is by far the most important thing, so anyone with one that low is a poor player.

[538280]

Pudge and Ken Griffey Jr. are by far the most overrated players in my lifetime. Pudge's defense is also way overblown, because although he is probably the best ever at controlling the running game, A)The running isn't that important in the first place, and B)He can't handle the pitchers. This is a post I made on another thread:

"Ivan Rodrguez may seem the best defensive catcher by defensive metrics, but there is one significant part of catching that it is probably impossibel to quantify-dealing with the pitchers.

By almost all accounts, Rodriguez does not handle his pitchers very well. There have even been complaints from pitchers who were his battery mates. I don't know, but perhaps this has something to do with the large number of pitching flops the Rangers had in that time? The park I'm sure had something to do with it too, but Pudge may have had a small part in it.

Most catchers have a meeting with the pitchers before the game to go over matchups with hitters. What kind of pitches to thrown to them, where to locate pitches to get them out, that sort of stuff. From what I have heard, Pudge would never have meetings like that.

He may have been the best ever at controlling the running game, but he was awful at the areas of catching which can't be numerically quantified. Calling him the best defensive catcher ever is ignoring a whole very important aspect of the position.

He also had just god awful plate discipline (56 relative IsoPD, I mean that has to be as bad as anyone in the history of the game). I think he is overrated"

[Brannu]

I'm not criticizing, just trying to create discussion, isn't that what these boards are for?

Pudge's line last year was .276/.290/.444, while Posada's was .262/.352/.430

Do you think Pudge's defensive ability can make up for a 60 point difference in OBP? That would be like claiming that Neifi Perez's defense makes up for the offensive difference between him and Jeter. I think OBP is by far the most important thing, so anyone with one that low is a poor player.

But, in order to make a real case for Jorge ... wouldn't you have to look at the entire career? In that case, I think the nod clearly goes to Ivan. We may be experiencing the decline of Pudge's greatness ... but, I'm not ready to call him out of the top 5 because of one year.

[Brannu]

Pudge and Ken Griffey Jr. are by far the most overrated players in my lifetime. Pudge's defense is also way overblown, because although he is probably the best ever at controlling the running game, A)The running isn't that important in the first place, and B)He can't handle the pitchers.

Isn't knocking a runner down at 2nd just as good as stopping a run or two? That appears to be pretty important to me. Your second point is a good one, but, then I do believe that you answered it. Who has he caught?

Two of the best players in the 90's are overrated? Wow. Both of the players you mentioned were/are excellent on both sides of the ball. Overrated? That's a tough call to make.

[Dasperp]

I too think Pudge is a little bit overrated. This is because i don't value SB's that much, and therefore don't value a catcher's ability to prevent them that much. That said, he is still one of the top 5 catchers of all time IMO. He may have awful plate discipline, but his career .347 obp is pretty good for a catcher. I think the way he is overrated is that many believe he is better than Piazza, wheras i think its not even close. Again, this is just due to my overall philosophy about value and how important throwing out baserunners is. If i believed this was just an off-year for Pudge, i would have included him. But i think this is real decline, especially because i think he was a 'roid user.

[KCGHOST]

1 Victor Martinez
2 Jason Varitek
3 Jorge Posada
4 Joe Mauer
5 Javier Lopez
6 Ivan Rodriguez
7 Ramon Hernandez
8 Michael Barrett
9 Mike Lieberthal
10 Jason Kendall

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

I'm not criticizing, just trying to create discussion, isn't that what these boards are for?

Pudge's line last year was .276/.290/.444, while Posada's was .262/.352/.430

Do you think Pudge's defensive ability can make up for a 60 point difference in OBP? That would be like claiming that Neifi Perez's defense makes up for the offensive difference between him and Jeter. I think OBP is by far the most important thing, so anyone with one that low is a poor player.

OBP is not the most important thing.
BAVG is pretty important, then comes the OBP, and then OPS(or SLG)

By the way, sorry for criticizing you.
These boards are for discussion.
I think the most underrated catcher is Brian Schneider.
What do y'all think?

[bluezebra]

Mike Piazza is a hitter who happens to be a catcher by default. He can't play any other position. To even include him in a list of top catchers is an insult to the position.

Bob

[BoofBonser26]

Mike Piazza is a hitter who happens to be a catcher by default. He can't play any other position. To even include him in a list of top catchers is an insult to the position.

Bob
I don't think you'd stick a 100% incompetent person at the most crucial position in the game. Piazza'd be a 1B or DH or RF if he couldn't catch. He's doing something right, or else he've been moved by now (before age caught up to him these years).

[BoofBonser26]

1. Victor Martinez
2. Jason Varitek
3. Joe Mauer
4. Ivan Rodriguez
5. Jorge Posada
6. Paul Lo Duca
7. Bengie Molina
8. Jason Kendall
9. A.J. Pierzynski
10. Michael Barrett

[digglahhh]

OBP is not the most important thing.
BAVG is pretty important, then comes the OBP, and then OPS(or SLG)


Would you mind telling me why you feel this way, and how steadfast you are regarding your preferences. Do you prefer Sean Casey to Adam Dunn?

[538280]

I too think Pudge is a little bit overrated. This is because i don't value SB's that much, and therefore don't value a catcher's ability to prevent them that much. That said, he is still one of the top 5 catchers of all time IMO.

Whoa there. That's higher than I've ever seen anyone have Pudge. If you think he is a top 5 catcher in the history of the game, then you think he's severly underrated. Most who think he's overrated leave him just out of their all time top 10. My top 20 catchers all time:

1.Josh Gibson
2.Johnny Bench
3.Yogi Berra
4.Mike Piazza
5.Mickey Cochrane
6.Carlton Fisk
7.Biz Mackey
8.Gary Carter
9.Joe Torre
10.Roy Campanella
11.Bill Dickey
12.Gabby Hartnett
13.Louis Santop
14.Ivan Rodriguez
15.Bill Freehan
16.Ted Simmons
17.Buck Ewing
18.Roger Bresnahan
19.Elston Howard
20.Gene Tenace

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Would you mind telling me why you feel this way, and how steadfast you are regarding your preferences. Do you prefer Sean Casey to Adam Dunn?

Well. Take a deep breath. Here is my analysis

For me numbers aren't THAT important. Dunn smashed 40 dingers while Casey only 9.

If a player is consistent and can drive in runs(see Adam Dunn) he is a good player.
Never mind the K's.
Now let's go:

Sean Casey- 2005

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
137 529 75 165 32 0 9 58 224 48 48 2 0 .371 .423 .312
Adam Dunn- 2005
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
160 543 107 134 35 2 40 101 293 114 168 4 2 .387 .540 .247

As you can see, both are very different players
Dunn struck out 168 times! whereas Casey had a mere 48.
Dunn smashed 40 dingers, and drove in 101 runs whereas Casey had just 9 shots and 58 rbi's.
Now we get to the point, Dunn had 134 hits, Casey 165.
Casey's BAvg was .312(pretty good) while Dunn was worse than Wilkerson .247. Dunn's SLG is pretty good, Casey's is all right.
Dunn=293 TB
Casey= 224 TB
Even if Casey had more hits, Dunn had more TB because of those 40 shots.

Personally, I'd rather have Dunn(without the strikeouts and Bavg)
Casey is good, but Dunn, is still better(despite .247 :rolleyes :eek: )

:o

[Dasperp]

Whoa there. That's higher than I've every seen anyone have Pudge all time. If you think he is a top 5 catcher in the history of the game, then you think he's severly underrated. Most who think he's overrated leave him just out of their all time top 10

I really don't know much about baseball history, so i really wouldn't know where to place him (example: I've never heard of Mackey). I should have said one of the greatest catchers ever and not put a number on it.

[Brannu]

I too think Pudge is a little bit overrated. This is because i don't value SB's that much, and therefore don't value a catcher's ability to prevent them that much. That said, he is still one of the top 5 catchers of all time IMO. He may have awful plate discipline, but his career .347 obp is pretty good for a catcher. I think the way he is overrated is that many believe he is better than Piazza, wheras i think its not even close. Again, this is just due to my overall philosophy about value and how important throwing out baserunners is. If i believed this was just an off-year for Pudge, i would have included him. But i think this is real decline, especially because i think he was a 'roid user.

I'm sure there is some correlation between Rickey Henderson being the all-time leader in SB's and Runs. This is why I value Ivan Rodriguez. A runner being able to swipe second ... then third, puts pressure on the pitcher, forcing him to make mistakes that he normally wouldn't. A runner at second with no outs changes the game considerably. That's why a player like Rickey Henderson AND Ivan Rodriquez are invaluable.

I'll take speed over homeruns any day.

[pacewon]

OBP is not the most important thing.
BAVG is pretty important, then comes the OBP, and then OPS(or SLG)


Just curious: why BA over OBP?

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Just curious: why BA over OBP?

Bavg is The dominating stat. Without it, who knows what MLB players would become. A player can have a 500 OBP and a 167. BAvg and I wouldn't consider him a good player.
BAVg is the stat.

[538280]

I'm sure there is some correlation between Rickey Henderson being the all-time leader in SB's and Runs. This is why I value Ivan Rodriguez. A runner being able to swipe second ... then third, puts pressure on the pitcher, forcing him to make mistakes that he normally wouldn't. A runner at second with no outs changes the game considerably. That's why a player like Rickey Henderson AND Ivan Rodriquez are invaluable.


Rickey Henderson holds the all time runs record mostly because he played for a real long time and he had a great OBP. The SBs may have a little to do with it, but not all that much.

l take speed over homeruns any day

You can take your speed over HRs all day if you want, just don't expect to win anything.

[538280]

Bavg is The dominating stat. Without it, who knows what MLB players would become. A player can have a 500 OBP and a 167. BAvg and I wouldn't consider him a good player.
BAVg is the stat.

But you haven't explained yourself. Why is BA the stat?

[538280]

I really don't know much about baseball history, so i really wouldn't know where to place him (example: I've never heard of Mackey). I should have said one of the greatest catchers ever and not put a number on it.

Always glad to educate someone on one of the great overlooked Negro League players, Biz Mackey.

Bill Burgess provided this great piece on him:

Introducing James Raleigh Clarence (Biz) Mackey:
Born: July 27, 1897, Eagle Pass, TX; Died: Sept. 22, 1965, Los Angeles, CA.

1920-47, '50; Positions: C, SS, 3B, 2B, 1B, OF, P, Manager; BB/TR; 6'0, 200;

From pages 502-503 in Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues:
Quote:
Biz Mackey was an incredibly talented receiver who remained cool under pressure, and his defensive skills were unsurpassed in the history of black baseball. Considered the master of defense, he possessed all the tools necessary behind the plate, but gained the most acclaim for his powerful and deadly accurate throwing arm. He could snap a throw to second from a squatting position and get it there, harder, quicker, and with more accuracy that most catchers can standing up. Mackey delighted in throwing out the best basestealers, and his pegs to the keystone sack were frozen ropes passing the mound belt high and arriving on the bag feather soft.

Although barely literate, Mackey was intelligent, had a good BB mind, and employed a studious approach to the game. The ballpark was his classroom, and inside BB was his subject of expertise. He relied on meticulous observation and a good memory to match weaknesses of opposing hitters with the strengths of his pitching staff. An expert handler of pitchers, he also studied people and could direct the temperaments of his hurlers as well as he did their repertoires.

He was also a jokester, and utilized good-natured banter and irrelevant conversation to try to distract a hitter and break his concentration at the plate, and was a master at "stealing" strikes from umpires by framing and funneling pitches. Pitchers recognized his generalship and liked to pitch to the big, husky receiver who, for his size, was surprisingly agile behind the plate. His unexpected quickness, coupled with soft hands, enabled the versatile athlete to play often at SS, 3B, or in the OF, and although lacking noteworthy range, he proved adept at any position. He was also a smart base runner and, while not fast, stole his share of bases.

In his prime, the switch-hitting Mackey was one of the most dangerous hitters in baseball, with power from both sides of the plate. In his initial season for Hilldale, he hit .423 BA, 20 HRs, and .698. SLG.

From 1923 on, he hit .337, .350, .327, .315, .327, .337, .400, .376. Biz learned the craft of baseball under his 1st manager C.I. Taylor, a master teacher. In 1923, Mackey was a plum plucked by raiding Hilldale owner Ed Bolden. Initially, with the Hilldale Daisies, he split his playing time between catching and SS, sharing duties behind the plate with aging superstar Louis "Santop" Loftin. But for the '25 season he won the position full time, and for the next decade retained recognition as the premier receiver in black baseball.

Mackey was in demand for postseason exhibitions and played against ML all star squads. In 1926, Hilldale won 5 of 6 games from the Philadelphia Athletics with Lefty Grove. In balloting for the inaugural East-West All-Star game in 1933, Mackey's all-around skills were preferred over the slugging ability of young Josh Gibson. Mackey was then 36 yrs. old and past his prime, while Gibson was just beginning to hit his stride. However, Mackey's defensive skills were still so far above those of other catchers that he played in 4 of the 1st 6 midsummer classics. Even as late as 1937, he was still considered the best all-around receiver in the Negro Leagues. One of his proteges with the Elites was Roy Campanella, who credits Mackey with teaching him the finer points of catching. Observers say that watching Campanella was like seeing Mackey behind the plate again.

Biz had enough left to hit .307 in '45. He was a nonsmoker/nondrinker, and served as an exemplary role model for young black kids.

He hit .335 BA. in league play, .326 against white ML competition.

Gibson/Mackey:
Offense/Defense: Depends on how much one values brute power / good defense over balanced power/master defensive technician. I take Mackey over Gibson.

Although Gibson supposedly was a good defensive man, in the NL, he was outranked defensively by, at the very least, Mackey, Bruce Petway, Larry Brown, Frank Duncan, Roy Campanella, Ted Radcliffe, Louis "Santop" Loftin.

If the Negro Leagues had a Top 10 Defensive Catchers list, Josh Gibson might fairly rank at the bottom of the Top 10, but the Top of the Top 10 Catchers Offensively.

If the Negro Leagues had a Top 10 Offensive Catchers list, Biz Mackey might fairly rank 4th, beneath Gibson, Santop and Campy. There might be a few others, but I'm still studying the Negro Leagues. All told, I'd indeed take Mackey over Gibson. In catchers, I value defense over offense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimated Win Shares from Baseball Think Factory for Negro Leaguers already in the BBF HOF
The BTF guys project him at 290 career win shares, 105 in his best five consecutive years, and a top three of 25, 23 and 20.

I've made a number of posts on Mackey, usually comparing him to another Negro League catcher, Louis Santop:

Mark, both Santop and Mackey should both make the HOF easily, and I'd say them Suttles and Torriente are no brainers for the commitee to select.

That said, I'd elect Mackey before Santop. Mackey was probably the best defensive catcher of all time, and was also a very good hitter. Mackey hit a recorded .423 with 20 home runs and a .698 slugging percentage against Eastern Colored League competition 1923. He also hit for averages of .337, .350, .327, .315, .327, .337, .400, and .376 from 1924-1931. Imagine that, the best defensive catcher in the league batting over .300 9 straight years with good power!

Santop was a great player, but didn't have defensive skills anywhere near Mackey's. Santop's main asset was his ability to hit tape measure home runs. He was one of the best power hitters of his time and was nicknamed "Big Bertha" for his ability to hit home runs. As well, he had great contact skils. I would say Santop was a better hitter than Mackey, but his defensive skills don't come close. Small edge in hitting to Santop, but Mackey's large defensive edge wins the day. I'd take Mackey over Santop, but the committe would be right to select both.

And another, which focuses more on just Mackey:

Don't know where you've ever heard that Mackey wasn't an offensive force. His offensive reputation has suffered tremendously because he is just a step behind Louis Santop, who is the player usually compared to him. The fact is, he was just a small step behind Santop on offense, and had way better D. To quote James Riley's Biographical Negro League Encyclopedia:

"In his prime, the switch hitting Mackey was one of the most dangerous hitters in baseball, with power from both sides of the plate, as evidenced by a .423 batting average, 20 home runs, and a .698 slugging percentage for Hilldale in the Eastern Colored League's inaugural season, 1923. Biz followed this campaign with averages of .337, .350, .327, .315, .327, .337, .400, and .376 for the years 1924-1931."

Really, does that sound like an average hitter? Is a catcher with a .423 BA and a .698 SLG% an average or slightly above average hitter, even if he's playing in a weak league? Is a catcher who hits over .300 9 straight years an average hitter? No, Mackey was a very outstanding hitter. I'm not sure why his reputation offensively has suffered. I think he's easily better than Santop, who was only a bit better on offense and wasn't even close on defense.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

But you haven't explained yourself. Why is BA the stat?

BAvg was the first baseball stat(1864).
It is the basic stat, when a baseball fan looks at a player's card, he won't look at the OBP first, usually homers and RBI's. Bu then usually he'd look at BAvg. Just to finish off: Batting avg is the BASIC stat in MLB.
Easiest one to understand also!:laugh :coffee

:)

[moviegeekjan]

BAvg was the first baseball stat(1864).
It is the basic stat, when a baseball fan looks at a player's card, he won't look at the OBP first, usually homers and RBI's.
Illogical

Just because the "generic" fan looks at it first doesn't mean it is the most important stat

[bluezebra]

I don't think you'd stick a 100% incompetent person at the most crucial position in the game. Piazza'd be a 1B or DH or RF if he couldn't catch. He's doing something right, or else he've been moved by now (before age caught up to him these years).

The only thing Piazza has done right over the years has been to hit well. As for another position, he refused to switch to 1B, his arm wasn't good enough for RF (and I'm sure he's be a fielding monstrosity out there), and there's no DH in the NL.

I nefver stated he was 100% incompetent. Just that he played catcher by default, because there was no other way to get his bat into the lineup.

Bob

[538280]

BAvg was the first baseball stat(1864).
It is the basic stat, when a baseball fan looks at a player's card, he won't look at the OBP first, usually homers and RBI's. Bu then usually he'd look at BAvg. Just to finish off: Batting avg is the BASIC stat in MLB.
Easiest one to understand also!:laugh :coffee

:)

Sorry, but this is completely illogical and makes very little sense. Being basic or easy to understand doesn't make it a good stat. It actually can make it very misleading. (in fact, the more complicated a metric is, the better it usually is).

The generic fan may look at BA first, but the generic fan really knows very little about the game, that why they're called "generic". I've had enough experience with the usefulness of baseball statistics that my eyes have been trained to immediately look at OBP and SLG.

[wilkerson_rulz-06]

Sorry, but this is completely illogical and makes very little sense. Being basic or easy to understand doesn't make it a good stat. It actually can make it very misleading. (in fact, the more complicated a metric is, the better it usually is).

The generic fan may look at BA first, but the generic fan really knows very little about the game, that why they're called "generic". I've had enough experience with the usefulness of baseball statistics that my eyes have been trained to immediately look at OBP and SLG.

Sorry man. I just can't explain why.

[Brannu]

Rickey Henderson holds the all time runs record mostly because he played for a real long time and he had a great OBP. The SBs may have a little to do with it, but not all that much.

You can take your speed over HRs all day if you want, just don't expect to win anything.

It may be this type of thinking that has lead to the "juiced era" and had teams scrambling more for homeruns than the speedy guys that get on base and wreak havoc on opposing pitchers and defenses. To me, speed is one of the more overlooked aspects of the game. It leaves people like Corey Patterson trying to hit homeruns rather than do what they are naturally good at. It works, just look at Juan Pierre and Ichiro for the number of infield singles that have helped them in their short MLB careers.

Yes .. it helped Rickey tremendously. He stole an incredible 130 bases in one season. That is picking 2nd and 3rd at a ridiculous rate ... increasing the probability of scoring runs for the team.

Give me two speedsters at the top of the lineup, a contact/high avg. hitter in the 3 hole, a long ball guy 4th and a good rbi man in the 5 - and I'm a happy camper.

Homeruns are overrated.

[Edgartohof]

Illogical

Just because the "generic" fan looks at it first doesn't mean it is the most important stat

Well, until YOU find the perfect stat, let us have ours.


Actually, there is no perfect stat, but that's just my opinion, you just have to find a healthy relationship between a wide variety, to even become close - again, just my opinion.

[BoofBonser26]

Do we really need to keep the voting open for 10 more days?

[Edgartohof]

Slightly off topic, but I was just wondering if anyone knew why the marlins traded for Piazza in 1998, and then traded him away just a week later? I mean, they originally gave away Sheffield (and others) for Piazza, and then traded him for Preston Wilson. From what I see, they got shafted in both those deals.

If they kept him, they would have had 4 great years out of him, at an important position, and really would have shored up their hole there (in 1998, their catcher Greg Zaunn, hit .188 in 106 games!). But instead, they traded away Sheffield, and Piazza and only got Wilson out of the deal. Now don't get me wrong, Wilson is good, but he ain't THAT good. In fact, he is considerably worse than the other two, especially since Piazza is a Catcher. I mean from '99-'02, Piazza hit 44 more HR's than P.Wilson (147-103). The only thing Wilson was better at was stealing bases, and that can't make up even those 40+ HR's, or nearly 40 points in BA, or 101 RBI.

[Yankee Legend]

Do we really need to keep the voting open for 10 more days?

tell you what if no one posts a list by tomorow, then i will close the voting and post the results.

[Yankee Legend]

Since no one else is voting i have decided to close the poll early

Here are the results: (points in parentheses)

1. Victor Martinez (113)
2. Jason Varitek (100)
3. Joe Mauer (88)
4. Jorge Posada (80)
5. Ivan Rodriguez (59)
6. Ramon Hernandez (40)
6. Bengie Molina (40)
8. Mike Matheny (30)
9. Michael Barrett (29)
10. Paul Lo Duca (27)
11. Mike Piazza (17)
12. Brian Schneider (15)
13. Javy Lopez (12)
14. A. J. Pierzynski (8)
15. Jason LaRue (7)
15. Yadier Molina (7)
17. Mike Lieberthal (5)
18. Brad Ausmus (1)

Thank you all for participating and be sure to cast your vote for the current top 10 firstbasemen poll.

[thenextsuperstar]

Interesting

[Baseball Guru]

1. Victor Martinez
2. Jason Varitek
3. Bengie Molina
4. Ivan Rodriguez
5. Ramon Hernandez
6. Joe Mauer
7. Jorge Posada
8. Paul Lo Duca
9. A.J. Pierzynski
10. Mike Piazza

[Bob Hannah]

Do you want to watch a gorgeous play?

Check the link below:


http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/p...ayer_id=435358

Under Multimedia, select Betancourt's Gorgeous Play.
Can't get the link to work.

[Guerrero Mad Man 2715]

Alright, alright.....Jeter is okay....

[Cubano100%]

This is the fifth installment of the positon polls for currnt players. To vote, simple list the top 10 shortstops that are active in order from best (#1) to least (#10). The results will be tabulated and will be announced on jan 5 @ 10 PM or 2 days after the last ballot was submitted. The points will be alloted based on the player's ranking on each list (1st place gets 10, 2nd gets 9, 3rd gets 8, etc.) Remember, YOU MUST LIST 10!!!!!

Although you may vote for whomever you see fit I strongly urge you to consider offensive as well as defensive preformance. Also, try to rate players in either preformance in the 2005 mlb season or preformance in the last 3-4 years. However, you may can use career performance as a factor.

Here are the results from previous polls:

Catchers
1. Victor Martinez
2. Jason Varitek
3. Joe Mauer
4. Jorge Posada
5. Ivan Rodriguez
6. Ramon Hernandez
6. Bengie Molina
8. Mike Matheny
9. Michael Barrett
10. Paul Lo Duca

First Basemen
1. Albert Pujols
2. Derek Lee
3. Mark Teixeira
4. Carlos Delgado
5. Todd Helton
6. Paul Konerko
7. Jason Giambi
8. Lance Berkman
9. Richie Sexson
10. Jim Thome

Second Basemen
1. Jeff Kent
2. Alfonso Soriano
3. Marcus Giles
4. Brian Roberts
5. Chase Utley
6. Placido Polanco
7. Robinson Cano
7. Luis Castillo
9. Craig Biggio
10. Mark Loretta

Third Basemen
1. Alex Rodriguez
2. Scott Rolen
3. Miguel Cabrera
4. David Wright
5. Eric Chavez
6. Morgan Ensberg
7. Aramis Ramirez
8. Troy Glaus
9. Chipper Jones
10. Melvin Mora


Giambi over Sexson and Berkman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posada number 4 over Ivan Rodriguez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robinson Cano ranked number 7 when he can not catch a water melon coming his way.

You must be speaking as a Yankees fan!

[Astro]

Giambi over Sexson and Berkman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posada number 4 over Ivan Rodriguez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robinson Cano ranked number 7 when he can not catch a water melon coming his way.

You must be speaking as a Yankees fan!
Posada is better than Ivan Rodriguez... its not really that close at all

[Blackout]

Giambi over Sexson and Berkman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posada number 4 over Ivan Rodriguez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robinson Cano ranked number 7 when he can not catch a water melon coming his way.

You must be speaking as a Yankees fan!

1-Berkman isn't even a permenant first basemen

2-Posada is far better than Ivan these days, were not talking about 5 years ago

3-Do you know how hard it is to catch a water melon with a baseball glove?

4-he didnt make those lists, everyone voted for that and those are the results

[Cubano100%]

1-Berkman isn't even a permenant first basemen

2-Posada is far better than Ivan these days, were not talking about 5 years ago

3-Do you know how hard it is to catch a water melon with a baseball glove?

4-he didnt make those lists, everyone voted for that and those are the results


Did anyone check the stats?
Did anyone take into consideration that Mr. Posada plays in a Triple AAA stadium?

Rodriguez is a hall of famer and still is better than Posada. He plays in a huge stadium so his power numbers would suffer.

Ave Hr 2b 3b RBI SLU FPCT E PB
Posada 262 19 23 0 71 430 996 3 8
Rodriguez 276 14 33 5 50 444 995 4 4
Benji Molina 295 15 17 0 69 446 996 3 10
Javy Lopez 278 15 24 1 49 458 994 3 4

[Cubano100%]

Posada is better than Ivan Rodriguez... its not really that close at all


Posada plays in a AAA stadium. Check the stats, please.

[Blackout]

Did anyone check the stats?
Did anyone take into consideration that Mr. Posada plays in a Triple AAA stadium?

Rodriguez is a hall of famer and still is better than Posada. He plays in a huge stadium so his power numbers would suffer.

Ave Hr 2b 3b RBI SLU FPCT E PB
Posada 262 19 23 0 71 430 996 3 8
Rodriguez 276 14 33 5 50 444 995 4 4
Benji Molina 295 15 17 0 69 446 996 3 10
Javy Lopez 278 15 24 1 49 458 994 3 4

last year posada had 8 more win shares than rodriguez

what theyve done over their careers doesnt mean anything in this poll, its about whos the better catcher right now

[Astro]

Posada plays in a AAA stadium. Check the stats, please.
Ummm... Yankee Stadium is where the New York Yankees play, they are not a AAA team... Columbus, I do believe, is NY's AAA team

What is your excuse for Rodriguez only walking 11 times last season aswell?

Blackout and I are giving reasons as to why Posada is better, and I hate the Yankees by the way, all you are doing is saying Rodriguez is better and not giving any reason

[Cubano100%]

Ummm... Yankee Stadium is where the New York Yankees play, they are not a AAA team... Columbus, I do believe, is NY's AAA team

What is your excuse for Rodriguez only walking 11 times last season aswell?

Blackout and I are giving reasons as to why Posada is better, and I hate the Yankees by the way, all you are doing is saying Rodriguez is better and not giving any reason


Can you remind us what are the right field dimensions for the Yankee stadium?


I just gave the stats. Do you need any more evidence than that. Rodriguez plays in a huge stadium while Posada plays in Yankee stadium that has a very short right field.

Can you compare the Yankees lineup vs the Tigers?

You can have Posada all you want. I prefer Rodriguez.



Thanks in advance,

[Evangelion]

Can you remind us what are the right field dimensions for the Yankee stadium?


I just gave the stats. Do you need any more evidence than that. Rodriguez plays in a huge stadium while Posada plays in Yankee stadium that has a very short right field.

Can you compare the Yankees lineup vs the Tigers?

You can have Posada all you want. I prefer Rodriguez.

Thanks in advance,
They're stating why Posada better. You're not stating why Rodriguez is better, you're just stating you prefer Rodriguez, which you're welcome to do.

Yankee Stadium dimensions are 318 to Left Field, 399 to Left Center, 408 to Center, 385 to Right Center and 314 to Right Field. I'll just throw Comerica Park's dimensions out there for you, too. 346 Left Field , 402 Left Center, 422 Center, 379 Right Center and 330 Right Field.

If we were discuss who has more power, then your arguement would hold move value, but the dimensions of both stadium have nothing to do with getting a walk, which Rodriguez had a pathetic total of 11 last season as Astro stated.

You can prefer Rodriguez all you want, but it doesn't make him better than Posada these days based on numbers they have posted recently. You can argue opinions, but the numbers are facts and Posada has the better numbers.

[Cubano100%]

They're stating why Posada better. You're not stating why Rodriguez is better, you're just stating you prefer Rodriguez, which you're welcome to do.

Yankee Stadium dimensions are 318 to Left Field, 399 to Left Center, 408 to Center, 385 to Right Center and 314 to Right Field. I'll just throw Comerica Park's dimensions out there for you, too. 346 Left Field , 402 Left Center, 422 Center, 379 Right Center and 330 Right Field.

If we were discuss who has more power, then your arguement would hold move value, but the dimensions of both stadium have nothing to do with getting a walk, which Rodriguez had a pathetic total of 11 last season as Astro stated.

You can prefer Rodriguez all you want, but it doesn't make him better than Posada these days based on numbers they have posted recently. You can argue opinions, but the numbers are facts and Posada has the better numbers.


Man, go back to one of my previous post and you will see I posted the stats of Posada, Rodriguez, Molina and Lopez. I am stating why Rodriguez is better with the stats and the dimensions of the stadiums. Posada is an afterthought in the Yankees lineup. Where does he usually hit? 6th or 7th! As for Rodriguez, he hit number 2nd or 3rd for the Tigers most of the times. Who has the best defensive skills, throwing arm and knowledge to work with the pitchers? Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez.

Now, I have not jumped into the SS discussion. But how in the world Michael Young is not among the top 2 SS in every list. Please, the stats don't lie.

As for Mr. Nomar Garciaparra, he is not among the top 10 SS. Give me a break!!!!!!! He never could catch the ball and now his offense is not what it used to be. Some baseball mind suggested him to be a DH or move to the outfield because he even has lost a step or two. Don't throw him a first pitch fast ball because he usually swings the first pitch.

[Blackout]

Man, go back to one of my previous post and you will see I posted the stats of Posada, Rodriguez, Molina and Lopez. I am stating why Rodriguez is better with the stats and the dimensions of the stadiums. Posada is an afterthought in the Yankees lineup. Where does he usually hit? 6th or 7th! As for Rodriguez, he hit number 2nd or 3rd for the Tigers most of the times. Who has the best defensive skills, throwing arm and knowledge to work with the pitchers? Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez.

Now, I have not jumped into the SS discussion. But how in the world Michael Young is not among the top 2 SS in every list. Please, the stats don't lie.

As for Mr. Nomar Garciaparra, he is not among the top 10 SS. Give me a break!!!!!!! He never could catch the ball and now his offense is not what it used to be. Some baseball mind suggested him to be a DH or move to the outfield because he even has lost a step or two. Don't throw him a first pitch fast ball because he usually swings the first pitch.

you lose in the Pudge arguement, you failed to convince anyone

meanwhile, I have Michael Young at #2, but i see how others can say he's not one of the top 2 simply by looking at his home park

[Evangelion]

Man, go back to one of my previous post and you will see I posted the stats of Posada, Rodriguez, Molina and Lopez. I am stating why Rodriguez is better with the stats and the dimensions of the stadiums. Posada is an afterthought in the Yankees lineup. Where does he usually hit? 6th or 7th! As for Rodriguez, he hit number 2nd or 3rd for the Tigers most of the times. Who has the best defensive skills, throwing arm and knowledge to work with the pitchers? Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez.

Now, I have not jumped into the SS discussion. But how in the world Michael Young is not among the top 2 SS in every list. Please, the stats don't lie.

As for Mr. Nomar Garciaparra, he is not among the top 10 SS. Give me a break!!!!!!! He never could catch the ball and now his offense is not what it used to be. Some baseball mind suggested him to be a DH or move to the outfield because he even has lost a step or two. Don't throw him a first pitch fast ball because he usually swings the first pitch.
You really this bias toward Pudge that you have dimensions as an excuse as to why to Pudge is better than Posada? Lol, you make no sense. You say Pudge is better than Posada and you're complain that Young is not second on everybody's list while he has took major advantage of the dimensions of Arlington Park. Once again, can't you explain why Pudge walked only 11 times last year. Also, with Pudge higher in the order, he would have more of chance of being a better hitter than Posada, which he just wasn't last year.

Your arguement is very weak. The only thing you convice me of is you're bias fan of Pudge and just keeping saying he's better than Posada just because you like him. Sorry, your excuse that dimensions of the parks is to blame is weak, I think you keep ignore the fact Pudge just sucked last year and the dimensions of his park had nothing to do with it.

[Cubano100%]

You really this bias toward Pudge that you have dimensions as an excuse as to why to Pudge is better than Posada? Lol, you make no sense. You say Pudge is better than Posada and you're complain that Young is not second on everybody's list while he has took major advantage of the dimensions of Arlington Park. Once again, can't you explain why Pudge walked only 11 times last year. Also, with Pudge higher in the order, he would have more of chance of being a better hitter than Posada, which he just wasn't last year.

Your arguement is very weak. The only thing you convice me of is you're bias fan of Pudge and just keeping saying he's better than Posada just because you like him. Sorry, your excuse that dimensions of the parks is to blame is weak, I think you keep ignore the fact Pudge just sucked last year and the dimensions of his park had nothing to do with it.

Posada was better than Rodriguez in Hrs, RBI, BB, OBP, FPCT, fewest Errors
Rodriguez was better in 2B, 3B, SLU, fewest SO, SB, fewest Past balls

This is the biggest reason why my argument is not weak:
Rodriguez allowed 33 stolen bases while Posada allowed 90. What a difference! He shuts down the opposite team running game. Other teams don't even try to steal on him!
Rodriguez caught 35 runners while Posada 39.

As for your argument about batting higher in the order, pitchers are more carefull to the number 3,4 and 5 hitters than 7 hitters. What team has a better lineup? The Yankees! Don't you think Posada benefits from being in a better line up and shorter ballpark?


Michael Young was the second in the majors in hitting. Even though he plays for Texas, he got to be among the top SS.

Young is not second on everybody's list. I have seen him 7th.

[Cubano100%]

Yes, Texas is extremely favorable to hitters.

No offense, but if your knowledge of the game isn't complete enough to know this off the top of your head, perhaps you should temper the accusatory tone you use when lambasting the selections of others.


What are your talking about?

Sure, you have so much knowledge of the game!


Have a good day!

[GiantPickle]

Yes, Texas is extremely favorable to hitters.

No offense, but if your knowledge of the game isn't complete enough to know this off the top of your head, perhaps you should temper the accusatory tone you use when lambasting the selections of others.

You are out of line!:radio

He just stated his opinion and showed some stats and made his case. You must respect his opinion even though you disagree.

It is true that Rodriguez shutsdown the running game like no other catcher can.

[Evangelion]

I don't want to be rude but will you please stop arguing about this posada-rodriguez thing and just post a damn list.
Nah, it's not being rude. Sorry about debate catchers in this topic.

I'll just move the Posada-Rodriguez posts over there.
If you can move the post dealing with Posada-Rodriguez to that topic, that would be cool. I would like to continue that debate for those interested. :D

Young though does deserve more credit than he has, unless you don't wish to consider him a SS, but a 2B. Young hit 331. at home and hit 330. on the road. What about his power numbers? Lol, he hit 12 home runs at home and 12 home runs away from home. You could say that Arlington Park has helped his numbers, but you would be wrong. Has played constant at home and the road. There's not a big different in his numbers at Arlington Park or playing away from Arlington. :coffee

You want a hitter that has really misque numbers between home and road, then look no further than Blalock. But, Young is an overall solid hitter, I think people should pay some more attention to him. ;)

[digglahhh]

You are out of line!:radio

He just stated his opinion and showed some stats and made his case. You must respect his opinion even though you disagree.

It is true that Rodriguez shutsdown the running game like no other catcher can.

First off all, I find it rather remarkable that you seem to have gleened such insight as to what is and what isn't out of line so quickly, as you have analyzed, processed and interpretted the commonly accepted practices of discourse here on BBF by your SECOND post.

Second of all, my comment was addressed to the fact that Cubano didn't know that Texas was a big time hitter's park. It had nothing to do with Pudge or Posada. Make sure you have a grasp on who said what in what posts before you pass judgment.


I attempted to be diplomatic. Cubano was the one ripping everybody else's lists, criticisizing Posada's achievements because of his own ballpark, and then trumping up Michael Young without even doing any research on his park. I noted that it if he didn't know the seemingly elementary fact that the Ballpark in Arlington is quite favorable to hitters, others would probably not take his criticism too seriously in general and therefore maybe he should scale it back.

I didn't profess to be some guru of baseball knowledge. Certainly nobody would make such a claim just because they knew which ballparks were kind to batters.

And in response to your question about Pudge, the true value of basestealing in general is vastly overstated by mainstream baseball pundits. I don't think controlling the running game is as important as it is touted to be. In specific circumstances its is certainly a highly valuable skill, but in general it is not as important as it is widely thought to be. How many of those SBs on Posada happened when the Yanks were up or down by like 7 or 8 runs?...

[digglahhh]

[QUOTE=Cubano100%]
Sure, you have so much knowledge of the game. [QUOTE]

Most of the time when we insult others, we are just projecting our own insecurities upon those who threaten them.

Have a nice evening.

[Astro]

Who has the best defensive skills, throwing arm and knowledge to work with the pitchers? Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez.


Wrong, Brad Ausmus works with pitchers the best, Matheny and Ausmus have the best defensive skills... best arm would probably goto Yadier Molina or Rodriguez

[Mattingly]

This thread is being reopened. Please discuss the catchers' part of the SS thread, from which these were moved, over here.

Now let me get to the SS thread, removing all references to catchers from over there.

Please be patient, and thank you all very much. :)

EDIT: Here's the link to the Top 10 Shortstops thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=37927). Please post all discussions about shortstops, stadiums and their effect on shortstops over there. Please post anything on catchers over here.

Thanks.

[Cubano100%]

This thread is being reopened. Please discuss the catchers' part of the SS thread, from which these were moved, over here.

Now let me get to the SS thread, removing all references to catchers from over there.

Please be patient, and thank you all very much. :)

EDIT: Here's the link to the Top 10 Shortstops thread (http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=37927). Please post all discussions about shortstops, stadiums and their effect on shortstops over there. Please post anything on catchers over here.

Thanks.

Thank you good man.

I am not willing to spend any more time on this. People get mad for no reason. You know how to get in thouch with me.

[Mattingly]

Thank you good man.

I am not willing to spend any more time on this. People get mad for no reason. You know how to get in thouch with me.
Your choice to leave if you're outta here. If someone makes a point, they're expected to support it. If you make a list, then perhaps that list is worthy of defending.

Instead of getting up close and personal, people should simply support their points with facts, logic or some sense of reason, conveying what they'd felt when they made such a decision, even if someone disagrees.

[Evangelion]

What we need to do is find out their stats on the road. Then, go from there.
Posada's offensive numbers on the road and at home for you. I would post them all, but the difference in very small. Posada hit 260. at home while hitting 263. on the road and hit 11 HR at the Stadium while hitting 8 on the road. There's no huge gaping difference between Posada's number on the road or at home.

Even though you said Pudge suffer from a pitcher friendly park, Pudge hit better at home than he did on the road last season. Hit 8 of his 14 home runs last season at home and he hit 021. points better at home than he did on the road.

One the biggest reasons a lot of people have been down on Pudge was his horrible total of 11 walks. Of course, having a very un-Pudge type season last year. Even with Posada's down season, I would take Posada going into this season. Though, I will admit the Yankees would be better suited to have Pudge since they can suffer a poor performance offensive batter like Pudge in their line-up to have Pudge's ability to keep base runners at still. While the Tigers could use all the offensive in the world and Pudge's horrible .290 OBP didn't not help that bad Tiger offense last year.

I have to agree with Astro. For all the talk about Pudge working so well with the pitcher, the Tigers pitching staff has shown no signs of how good Pudge is with the pitchers while Matheny's and Ausmus's pitching staff have shown signs of good pitching while they're behide the mound. I'm refer to Matheny's seasons with the Cardinals, but I'm sure he'll do better this season with a bit of improved staff of the Giants and with old friend Matt Morris being on the team. We know what Aumus does, so no point to discuss that further. ;)

[Cubano100%]

1. I. Rodriguez
2. V. Martinez
3. M. Matheny
4. B. Ausmus
5. J. Mauer
6. J. Posada
7. J. Varitek
8. B. Molina
9. M. Barrett
10. A. Pierzynski

My selection is based on the following:

I look for a combination of offense and defense. I also value past performances and any young player with a lot of upside. I value defensive over offensive skills in a catcher.


Rodriguez has a shot at the Hall. He controls the opposing team running game. He is the only one in this list that has more caught stealing than stolen bases allowed. Even though he had an off year in 2005, he still deserve to be my top catcher.

Martinez would probably be the number one in my list next year. He is already one of the best catcher in the majors.

Matheny is excellent defensivelly. He is a better hitter than Ausmus.

Ausmus has the second best range factor in this list.

Mauer has a lot of potential and allowed only 31 stolen bases in 54 attempts.

I take Posada over Varitek. But either one is fine.

Molina is a big target, but needs to have fewer PBs.

Barrett probably deserves to be higher. He has the best range among these catchers. He can hit a little too.

Finally, I have to honor the catcher from the World Champ White Sox, Pierzynski. He handled one of the best if not the best pitching staff in 2005.

Javy Lopez is one his way out. He had a good year even though he had some injury problems.
I could not find a spot for Ramon Hernandez after looking his stats.
Paul Lo Duca, Jason Kendall and Rod Barajas could not make my list either.

[Astro]

He's already done with catchers... so doubt your list will be counted

Ivan Rodriguez was suspected of using steroids, being named by someone (Canseco maybe, I dont remember), then showed up much lighter to spring training and had a horrible year (coincidence?)

Defense wise Ausmus and Matheny are better, Rodriguez is probably the best at throwing out runners... offense wise he is just merely average now, and never walks... or maybe 1 walk a month

[Astro]

1. I. Rodriguez
2. V. Martinez
3. M. Matheny
4. B. Ausmus
5. J. Mauer
6. J. Posada
7. J. Varitek
8. B. Molina
9. M. Barrett
10. A. Pierzynski

My selection is based on the following:

I look for a combination of offense and defense. I also value past performances and any young player with a lot of upside. I value defensive over offensive skills in a catcher.


Rodriguez has a shot at the Hall. He controls the opposing team running game. He is the only one in this list that has more caught stealing than stolen bases allowed. Even though he had an off year in 2005, he still deserve to be my top catcher.

Martinez would probably be the number one in my list next year. He is already one of the best catcher in the majors.

Matheny is excellent defensivelly. He is a better hitter than Ausmus.

Ausmus has the second best range factor in this list.

Mauer has a lot of potential and allowed only 31 stolen bases in 54 attempts.

I take Posada over Varitek. But either one is fine.

Molina is a big target, but needs to have fewer PBs.

Barrett probably deserves to be higher. He has the best range among these catchers. He can hit a little too.

Finally, I have to honor the catcher from the World Champ White Sox, Pierzynski. He handled one of the best if not the best pitching staff in 2005.

Javy Lopez is one his way out. He had a good year even though he had some injury problems.
I could not find a spot for Ramon Hernandez after looking his stats.
Paul Lo Duca, Jason Kendall and Rod Barajas could not make my list either.
I'm very confused by this list, you liste Rodriguez #1 because of his defense, then Martinez 2nd because of his offense, Matheny and Ausmus next because of their defense, Mauer because of potential (but that shouldnt matter its who is best now, in 3 years then list Mauer in the top 5), then Posada and Varitek for their offense, back to defense for Molina, offense and defense for Barrett then Pierzynski because he was on the White Sox (Look at the Astros rotation and dont ever have the nerve to call the Sox rotation the best in 2005 again)

There no rhyme or reason to your list, it doesnt stick to 1 criteria and jumps around aimlessly just naming off catchers

[Cubano100%]

I'm very confused by this list, you liste Rodriguez #1 because of his defense, then Martinez 2nd because of his offense, Matheny and Ausmus next because of their defense, Mauer because of potential (but that shouldnt matter its who is best now, in 3 years then list Mauer in the top 5), then Posada and Varitek for their offense, back to defense for Molina, offense and defense for Barrett then Pierzynski because he was on the White Sox (Look at the Astros rotation and dont ever have the nerve to call the Sox rotation the best in 2005 again)

There no rhyme or reason to your list, it doesnt stick to 1 criteria and jumps around aimlessly just naming off catchers


You are right about the steroid allegations against Rodriguez.
The offensive numbers in the ML have not being the same for many players in the past two years. Next year the numbers should look even worst.

Martinez is not bad defensivelly. Remember, I look for a combination of offense and defense first. Martinez made 4 more errors than Ausmus and Matheny, but he had fewer PBs. Martinez has a better range than Matheny. Both Ausmus and Matheny are better than him with the running game. (note: the running game also depends on the pitchers)
But with all the offensive Martinez gives you and his youth, I take him over Ausmus and Matheny.

As for Mauer, he got the second best SB/CS ratio. His defense is not as sharp as Matheny or Ausmus but he is not bad. Again, his offense numbers and youth are the deciding factor.

Then, we get into Posada, Varitek and Molina. The ofensive and defensive stats are not as great as the others. Molina had 10 PBs and he can hit a little too. They are in the middle of the pack.

In contrast, Ausmus and Matheny are excellent defensive catchers. That is what they are known for.

I am quoting myself from my previous post:
"Barrett probably deserves to be higher. He has the best range among these catchers. He can hit a little too."

As for the pitching staff stats, I did not write "starting pitching". By the way, the combined season and postseason team ERA is:


Astros 3.98
White Sox 3.13

If you want to talk about starting pitching, the Astros starting pitchers are one of the reason why they are not wearing 2005 World Series Rings. Most of the White Sox relievers were on vacation in South Beach during the entire 2005 postseason.

Postseason

A. Pettite 4.26
R. Clements 5.63

Pierzynski did a great job handling the White Sox pitching staff. His defense and offense are not bad. 2005 was his best year ever and he got the ring!


I did not know he was done with the catchers. I knew the catchers' Thread was reopen. Whoever is keeping track of this does not need to worry about my selection. No a big deal!

[digglahhh]

Cubano,

What exactly are you using when you say one catcher has better "range" than the other? Are you using Range Factor?

Determining catchers' defensive through statistics is quite a task in and of itself.

Range Factor is already dubious, applying it to catcher', I assume would exascerbate the problems.

How much of a catcher's defensive value is determined by his "range?" I wouldn't assume much.

[Cubano100%]

Cubano,

What exactly are you using when you say one catcher has better "range" than the other? Are you using Range Factor?

Determining catchers' defensive through statistics is quite a task in and of itself.

Range Factor is already dubious, applying it to catcher', I assume would exascerbate the problems.

How much of a catcher's defensive value is determined by his "range?" I wouldn't assume much.


You are right. The range factor does not apply to catchers as well as other position players. Other defensive stats I used were SB/CS ratio, PB, E and FPCT.

This is what I did. Probably, I left somebody out. Besides the stats, I took the history and potential into consideration.

Please, if somebody read this keep in mind that this is not my top 10 list. See my previous post for that list.

Player H 2B HR RBI BB SO OBP SLG AVE E PB SB CS RF FPCT

I. Rodriguez 139 33 14 50 11 93 290 444 276 4 4 33 35 6.64 995
B. Ausmus 100 19 3 47 51 48 351 331 258 1 5 39 18 8.01 999
M. Matheny 107 34 13 59 29 91 295 406 242 1 4 63 39 6.91 999
B. Molina 121 17 15 69 27 41 336 446 295 3 10 44 20 7.09 996
J. Lopez 110 24 15 49 19 68 322 458 278 3 4 52 16 7.53 994
J. Posada 124 23 19 71 66 94 352 430 262 3 8 90 39 6.64 996
A. Pierzynski 118 21 18 56 23 68 308 420 257 1 7 79 23 6.85 999
P. Lo Duca 126 23 6 57 34 31 334 380 283 8 4 89 29 7.65 991
V. Martinez 167 33 20 80 63 78 378 475 305 5 3 96 29 7.02 995
R. Hernandez 107 19 12 58 18 40 322 450 290 8 6 52 18 7.55 988
J. Varitek 132 30 22 70 62 117 366 489 281 8 7 65 21 6.74 990
J. Mauer 144 34 15 55 61 64 372 411 294 5 6 31 23 6.64 993
M. Barrett 117 32 16 61 40 61 345 479 276 6 4 70 21 8.15 994
R. Barajas 104 24 21 60 26 70 306 466 254 9 7 44 23 6.41 988
J. Kendall 163 28 0 53 50 39 345 321 271 7 4 101 22 7.26 993

Then, I picked the names for my list. Probably, Victor Martinez should have been number 1.

All that work and it won't count! That happens when you join a Thread late like I did.

Other good looking catchers already in the ML or in the minors are:

Braves Brian McCann, Brayan Pena and Jarrod Saltalamacchia.
Angels Jeff Mathis and Mike Napoli.
Mariners Jeff Clement.

[Mattingly]

You are right. The range factor does not apply to catchers as well as other position players. Other defensive stats I used were SB/CS ratio, PB, E and FPCT.

This is what I did. Probably, I left somebody out. Besides the stats, I took the history and potential into consideration.

Please, if somebody read this keep in mind that this is not my top 10 list. See my previous post for that list.

Player H 2B HR RBI BB SO OBP SLU AVE E PB SB CS RF FPTC

I. Rodriguez 139 33 14 50 11 93 290 444 276 4 4 33 35 6.64 995
B. Ausmus 100 19 3 47 51 48 351 331 258 1 5 39 18 8.01 999
M. Matheny 107 34 13 59 29 91 295 406 242 1 4 63 39 6.91 999
B. Molina 121 17 15 69 27 41 336 446 295 3 10 44 20 7.09 996
J. Lopez 110 24 15 49 19 68 322 458 278 3 4 52 16 7.53 994
J. Posada 124 23 19 71 66 94 352 430 262 3 8 90 39 6.64 996
A. Pierzynski 118 21 18 56 23 68 308 420 257 1 7 79 23 6.85 999
P. Lo Duca 126 23 6 57 34 31 334 380 283 8 4 89 29 7.65 991
V. Martinez 167 33 20 80 63 78 378 475 305 5 3 96 29 7.02 995
R. Hernandez 107 19 12 58 18 40 322 450 290 8 6 52 18 7.55 988
J. Varitek 132 30 22 70 62 117 366 489 281 8 7 65 21 6.74 990
J. Mauer 144 34 15 55 61 64 372 411 294 5 6 31 23 6.64 993
M. Barrett 117 32 16 61 40 61 345 479 276 6 4 70 21 8.15 994
R. Barajas 104 24 21 60 26 70 306 466 254 9 7 44 23 6.41 988
J. Kendall 163 28 0 53 50 39 345 321 271 7 4 101 22 7.26 993

Then, I picked the names for my list. Probably, Victor Martinez should have been number 1.

All that work and it won't count! That happens when you join a Thread late like I did.

Other good looking catchers already in the ML or in the minors are:

Braves Brian McCann, Brayan Pena and Jarrod Saltalamacchia.
Angels Jeff Mathis and Mike Napoli.
Mariners Jeff Clement.
You may wish to change "SLU" to "SLG", which is slugging percentage. You may also wish to change "FPTC" to "FPCT", which is fielding percentage. Here's an mlb.com stat site, which defines via links each of the stats officially used, for each of hitting, pitching and fielding, so please bookmark this:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/baseball_basics/abbreviations.jsp

One question: since you've decided to return here, and since you've got all those stats put together, how did you look at all of them and decide who's #1, who's #2, who's #3, etc, on your list? In other words, which stats--be they offensive, defensive, park factors, catcher's ERA, number of steals against, and others--were the most important to you, and was there any consistency as to which catcher having superior numbers in any of those criteria, were picked higher than others?

I'm trying to figure out how you made that list of yours.

BTW, as I think was mentioned earlier, the voting is closed, so this discussion is mostly talking about what people feel are important aspects of a catcher's total game.

[Cubano100%]

You may wish to change "SLU" to "SLG", which is slugging percentage. You may also wish to change "FPTC" to "FPCT", which is fielding percentage. Here's an mlb.com stat site, which defines via links each of the stats officially used, for each of hitting, pitching and fielding, so please bookmark this:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/baseball_basics/abbreviations.jsp

One question: since you've decided to return here, and since you've got all those stats put together, how did you look at all of them and decide who's #1, who's #2, who's #3, etc, on your list? In other words, which stats--be they offensive, defensive, park factors, catcher's ERA, number of steals against, and others--were the most important to you, and was there any consistency as to which catcher having superior numbers in any of those criteria, were picked higher than others?

I'm trying to figure out how you made that list of yours.

BTW, as I think was mentioned earlier, the voting is closed, so this discussion is mostly talking about what people feel are important aspects of a catcher's total game.


Good catch! I hope you guys can bear with me. English is my second language obviously and I came to the USA as an adult.

I look for a combination of offense and defense. I also value past performances and any young player with a lot of upside. I value defensive over offensive skills in a catcher.

In my opinion, Rodriguez is the only one with a shot at the Hall right now. He has been excellent offensively for a long time. So I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. We all know he is excellent defensively and shuts down the running game. Still, his offense was better than some catchers in the list.
So for the most part, he has been good in both aspect of the game during his career.

I do not think I should spend any time on Martinez. The stats speak for themselves.

You can argue I should have Mauer higher than Matheny and Ausmus. I just feel that he can improve his defense just a little bit to go along with his SB/CS ratio. Probably he will second next year behind Martinez.

Then, I do not see any one giving me a combination of offense and defense that stands out over the rest. This is the reason why I went for defense with Matheny and Ausmus over the Posadas, Variteks and Molinas.

I wrote before that Barrett probably deserved to be higher.

[digglahhh]

In my opinion, Rodriguez is the only one with a shot at the Hall right now. He has been excellent offensively for a long time. So I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. We all know he is excellent defensively and shuts down the running game. Still, his offense was better than some catchers in the list.
So for the most part, he has been good in both aspect of the game during his career.




What about Mike Piazza? Not HOF worthy.

I'm not alone in ranking him ahead of Pudge. He put up monster offensive numbers in two of the worst parks to hit in. Between Pudge's steroid cloud and his hitting in Texas, I think Mike's superior offense overcomes Pudge's control of the running game.

This is also partly a function of the fact that I don't value the running game as highly as some do.

I had Pudge ahead for a while, but have changed that stance recently. Just want to hear your opinion about Mike.

[Astro]

Posada and Rodriguez have around the same chances of getting into the Hall of Fame

[digglahhh]

Posada and Rodriguez have around the same chances of getting into the Hall of Fame

This is ludicrous.

Posada has zero chance of going to the Hall. I don't think throughout this whole Yankee run he was at anytime even the 5th most Hall worthy on his own team.

The only debate with Pudge is if the steroid suspicions will snatch his first ballot status.

[Astro]

Last time I checked it doesnt matter if your the best player on your team or not...

They'll look at a) he played a hard position, b) he had good numbers, should end his career with around 235 home runs and c) how many rings he has... which on the Yankees he has a chance to get a ring every year

[digglahhh]

Last time I checked it doesnt matter if your the best player on your team or not...

They'll look at a) he played a hard position, b) he had good numbers, should end his career with around 235 home runs and c) how many rings he has... which on the Yankees he has a chance to get a ring every year


They'll look at the fact that he is not at all deserving.

Bring this discussion to the HOF forum and let's see what we get.

[Cubano100%]

What about Mike Piazza? Not HOF worthy.

I'm not alone in ranking him ahead of Pudge. He put up monster offensive numbers in two of the worst parks to hit in. Between Pudge's steroid cloud and his hitting in Texas, I think Mike's superior offense overcomes Pudge's control of the running game.

This is also partly a function of the fact that I don't value the running game as highly as some do.

I had Pudge ahead for a while, but have changed that stance recently. Just want to hear your opinion about Mike.


No doubt that Piazza in his prime was a monster. But right now, he is on his way out. The Mets wanted to make him a first baseman. I do not think he will be in the National League this year. He may become a DH. He will receive Hall of Fame consideration like Pudge.

One more thing about Posada and the Yankees. How many talented pitchers have the Yankees had that did not perform up to their potential?

Ex: Jeff Weaver, Javy Vazquez and Jose Contreras

It is true there is more pressure to perform in New York than other places. But isn't the catcher's job to make things work? Posada also had some issues with "Orlando "El Duke" Hernandez about pitch selection and how to handle hitters.

By the way, I like the Yankees.

Knoblauch, Jeter, Bernie, O'niell, Pettitte, Martinez, Ramirez, El Duke were my favorites during their great run.

[ElHalo]

Are we talking about Jorge Posada?

No, he's not Hall worthy. Yes, he's probably better than the worst C in the Hall (though it's not hard to be better than Rick Ferrell), but throw together the fact that he had a very short peak (starting at age 26 and ending at age 32), was only an average defensive player, and was, while an excellent offensive force for a catcher, not the kind of force Piazza was... I just don't see it happening for him.

The current Yankees right now have five slam dunk, can't miss HoF'ers (Jeter, Rodriguez, Sheffield (yes, he really will make it; I think he needs just one more season the quality of this past one to be a no question HoF'er), Johnson, and Rivera). They also have two guys with at least a 50/50 shot of making the Hall someday, though probably only years down the line (Williams (is it even possible to have an underrated Yankee?) and Mussina). I don't see Posada having more than a remote, outside shot... he strikes me as a much shorter lived version of Wally Schang, and even the fact that Wally played with Ruth for the Yankees couldn't get him into the Hall.

[Edgartohof]

This is ludicrous.

Posada has zero chance of going to the Hall. I don't think throughout this whole Yankee run he was at anytime even the 5th most Hall worthy on his own team.

I don't necessarily agree that he is Hall worthy, but I do believe that he has a shot at making it. Just by being a decent cather for a decent amount of time, he has a shot, but it is the fact that he has played in New York - for the Yankees that gives him his shot at getting in. Just playing for the Yankees increases your chances to get in - whether we like it or not. I'm not saying that he will, but he definitely has a shot.

[ElHalo]

Posada and Rodriguez have around the same chances of getting into the Hall of Fame

This is certainly overstepping things a bit.

With the exception of drawing walks, the guy can do EVERYTHING on the baseball field. Defense, throwing arm, hitting for average, hitting for power, baserunning... the guy's career highs are:

.334 BA
116 R
113 RBI
47 2B
35 HR
25 SB

While being one of the best defenisve C's in history. Yes, SABRmetrics hates the guy because his .039 ISOPD is terrible... that doesn't take away from the fact that the guy is arguably one of the five best MLB catchers of all time (I'd go Berra, Bench, Cochrane, Dickey, Rodriguez), and will be a surefire, no doubt, first ballot HoF'er... Posada's better than Rick Ferrell, and so he has that going for him, but I don't think he's better than any other HoF C.

[digglahhh]

The most HOF worthy catcher on the Yanks is their manager.

I know, I know, he added to his production and longevity playing other positions. But really, I think Torre would be ahead of Posada in the line for Coop, as a player alone.

[Mattingly]

They'll look at the fact that he is not at all deserving.

Bring this discussion to the HOF forum and let's see what we get.
I'm not sure I'd be willing to bring an existing thread over there. What you can do is mention these active catchers and ask which ones of them are likely bound for Cooperstown.

State your case, post a link here and in the other thread to the other respective thread, and perhaps we can have a great set of discussions. If you'd prefer that I do this, please let me know.

[ricky151]

he could not through out a base stealer if his life depended on it. Give me a break. Based on last years stats he is not even close to veritek. Future wise yeah its him and mauer for sure. Based on defence and hitting last year

veritek
posada
victor martinez
pudge
mauer
b molina
larue
matheny
ausmus
a.j perzinkie

i am probly of on the bottom five but the top 3 is how it should be untill victor can put throw out a base stealer, or hit like piazza in his hay day.

[deroku703]

I am sorry but piazza's defense has always been way underrated

ok he had trouble throwing out runners

He was an incredible plate blocker

ball never gets by him

calls a great game

and he is considered one of the best with popups

[NJMetfan4life]

I am sorry but piazza's defense has always been way underrated

ok he had trouble throwing out runners

He was an incredible plate blocker

ball never gets by him

calls a great game

and he is considered one of the best with popups

I agree, but nobody has posted here for 2 years, I think it's over.

[Zagi-CRO]

OK, it's old thread but if we are talking about 2008 catchers then I am going with this list:


A.J. Pierzynski
Brian McCann
Geovany Soto
Jason Kendall
Bengie Molina
Mike Napoli
Ryan Doumit
Kurt Suzuki
Gerald Laird
Jason Varitek


Min. 30 AB on Apr, 13th.

[Mattingly]

I'm curious, do you folks wish to create a new thread about 2008's catchers, then linking to this thread? I think that would be a good idea to start out fresh. :)

[GiambiJuice]

Here's my list; and it's not based on what they've done in the first few games of the season.

Victor Martinez
Russell Martin
Brian McCann
Jorge Posada
Joe Mauer
Jason Varitek
Benjie Molina
Kenji Johjima
AJ Pierzynski
Pudge Rodriguez

[howiek]

What about Brian Schneider? Have you all forgotten about him.
I know what you guys are thinking. I'm a Met fan and I'm only saying that
because I am a Met fan. But, its not true. I've been a fan of his for a long time. I think he is definently better than Loduca.
I agree somewhat with GiambiJuice's list minus Posada who now has a dead arm and will be added to the list of a dozen DH"s the Yanks already have.
and minus Bengie Monlina. Yadier is better than Bengie.

[Senior skittles]

yadier molina has the best throwing arm in MLB and throws out over 50% of potential base stealers and can even pick people off of first base. Hes plays great defense and his hitting is coming around...I havent read much of this thread but from what I have seen no body has even mentioned him. Hes gotta be top 10. Hes exiting to watch and you can say that about many catchers. The abillity to shut down an opponenets running game is underated and he does that better than anyone else right now.

[Baseball Guru]

Here's my list; and it's not based on what they've done in the first few games of the season.

Victor Martinez
Russell Martin
Brian McCann
Jorge Posada
Joe Mauer
Jason Varitek
Benjie Molina
Kenji Johjima
AJ Pierzynski
Pudge Rodriguez


Good list although I personally would move AJ Pierzynski up maybe right behind Mauer...