Cuban Players Defectors

[geforce2299]

So you believe all those old Cuban hitters like Pacheco and Mesa and Linares could have gone from swinging aluminum bats in Cuba to swinging wood bats in Cuba?

Those guys had a lot of talent, and it's unfortunate they never got a chance to try to play MLB, but the best Cuban position players today are just as good if not better than the guys from the '70s and '80s, at least when you look at things in terms of the modern M.L. game..


The ability to hit a baseball is one thing, wether your using metal, wood, plastic, it doesnt matter. Back then the league was way more competitive than today, several players were displaying ML stuff on the field right there, both pitchers and position players, guys that you could take from Cuba and put them on a ML club and perform right on the spot, and not said by me, all the experts and scouts had the same opinion, heck, Linares was offered a blank check for him to fill out when nobody was close to making A rod's type money. How many MLB ready players do we have today? probably a handfull, thats the difference. I wont argue that the rest someday can become ML players, but the league doesnt produce ML ready players like it did before thus going from being AAA to probably A+.



Compete in AAA? The average AAA roster has maybe one player who will go on to become an everyday player in MLB. Meanwhile, Santiago de Cuba's starting lineup is better than at least six major league teams today. If you can find an AAA team that has a better 1B than Ruiz, better 2B than Olivera, better SS than Navas, better 3B than Mustelier and a better OF than Alexei Bell, I'll buy you a new car.

Santiago de Cuba better than at least six major league clubs? today? even in the wildest night i dont think i'll be able to dream of such a thing, based on what? on the numbers they put up on a A+ league? There is no doubt in my mind that those players are ML caliber, but i can guarantee you that with the exception of a couple, they can not start out in AAA, and if Santiago's starting lineup defects tomorrow and they all go to AAA i'll be the one to buy you TWO cars!!

[Agente Libre]

The ability to hit a baseball is one thing, wether your using metal, wood, plastic, it doesnt matter. Back then the league was way more competitive than today, several players were displaying ML stuff on the field right there, both pitchers and position players, guys that you could take from Cuba and put them on a ML club and perform right on the spot, and not said by me, all the experts and scouts had the same opinion, heck, Linares was offered a blank check for him to fill out when nobody was close to making A rod's type money. How many MLB ready players do we have today? probably a handfull, thats the difference. I wont argue that the rest someday can become ML players, but the league doesnt produce ML ready players like it did before thus going from being AAA to probably A+.

First of all, if the switch from aluminum to wood is so easy, MLB wouldn't waste millions of dollars every year drafting and signing college all-star hitters who can't hit .300 in A-ball. Depending on the type of hitter and his swing, the change is actually quite tough. Assuming Mesa, Linares, Pacheco would have been M.L. All-Stars is a big leap.

Further, having an opinion is one thing but backing it up with facts is another. The simple fact is, Cuban players are defecting from Cuba and not only reaching MLB quickly, but they're putting up *better* numbers in MLB than they did in Cuba. And I'm not talking about Cuban All-Stars, either. No one in MLB even knew who Yunel Escobar or Yuniesky Betancourt were before they defected.

Santiago de Cuba better than at least six major league clubs? today? even in the wildest night i dont think i'll be able to dream of such a thing, based on what? on the numbers they put up on a A+ league? There is no doubt in my mind that those players are ML caliber, but i can guarantee you that with the exception of a couple, they can not start out in AAA, and if Santiago's starting lineup defects tomorrow and they all go to AAA i'll be the one to buy you TWO cars!!

No Cuban player is ever going to defect in June and then go straight to MLB, but if you think Bell, Ruiz, Olivera, Navas would need to start out in A+, it's silly to keep arguing with you.

[Cubano100%]

Everyone *always* believes things used to be better 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, and 99% of the time it's just nostalgic silliness.



Exactly so!

I will be saying the same thing 20 years from now about today's players.


Unbelievable!

[Cubano100%]

Cuba has been and will always be one fo the top baseball countries in the world, and it would most likely put as many or more players in the bigs as the Dominican if politics were different, but that right now it has substantially less MLB ready players than years ago is a fact. Betancourt and Escobar are great great players but they did not come straight to AAA like some people claim Serie Nacional is at. International baseball has always been a joke before the pros started playing and you all know that. How come nobody mentions Andy Morales going 5-6 vs the Orioles and then not getting past AA? and Yamel Guevara 10-0 with 1. something ERA and now getting lid up in independent ball? and Yobal Duenas?

Dayan Viciedo will most likely make it to MLB but right now he is at A+ - AA at the most.



You thoughts remind me about my good friend Roberto.

[geforce2299]

First of all, if the switch from aluminum to wood is so easy, MLB wouldn't waste millions of dollars every year drafting and signing college all-star hitters who can't hit .300 in A-ball. Depending on the type of hitter and his swing, the change is actually quite tough.

Further, having an opinion is one thing but backing it up with facts is another. The simple fact is, Cuban players are defecting from Cuba and not only reaching MLB quickly, but they're putting up *better* numbers in MLB than they did in Cuba. And I'm not talking about Cuban All-Stars, either. No one in MLB even knew who Yunel Escobar or Yuniesky Betancourt were before they defected.

I dont know what college all-starts your talking about because the Upton brothers got there very quickly, and so did Ryan Braun, Zimmerman, Stephen Drew, Fielder...................... Yes more and more players are defecting but how many have actually made it lately? 3, out of how many? and thats a fact my friend, by the way, i believe they did know who Escobar was because he has been playing in the PanAms since he was 9 years old.

Assuming Mesa, Linares, Pacheco would have been M.L. All-Stars is a big leap.

Now you are putting words in my mouth, ML ready not the same as ML All-star.



No Cuban player is ever going to defect in June and then go straight to MLB, but if you think Bell, Ruiz, Olivera, Navas would need to start out in A+, it's silly to keep arguing with you.

Hey, time will tell, lets see where Viciedo starts.

[Cubano100%]

You are right, Santiago de Cuba is everything you say, in an A+ league, but in no way does that mean it can compete in AAA.

Yobal Duenas, it is true he might have been too old and at the downfall of his career, but Jose Ariel Contreras was the same age when he came over and he made it, plus, the Yankees DID take a chance on him he just couldn't perform, i think however he might have been an MLB caliber player at some point in his career.

Look, this discussion has gone too far, and i don't think i will ever convince you otherwise. I believe i have proved my point however. I have been on both sides of the table (baseball wise) and can speak from personal experience.


You fail to recognize the below oints:

1. Aluminum bats that defectors in the 90's were used to. Andy Morales and Yobal Duenas Duenas played most of their careers with aluminum bats.
2. Cuban players are the only one separated from their families and they are held under a dictatorship. it is hard to concentrate on a baseball game when you have this situation.
3. For all players like Yobal Duenas, Amaury Cazanas, Andy Morales, etc, realizing they are not in the plans is a rude reality. Cazanas this year was not the worst outfielder in his AAA. However, Rasmus who has not hit anything is still playing everyday and Cazanas was sent to Mexico. Youth is a priority for MLB.
4. Other cuban pitchers have done better than Contreras but every situation is different. Once i compared cuban pitchers stats with japaneses, puertorricans, venzuelans, mexicans and dominicans. Cuban pitchers came forth in ERA despite coming to the USA as older players and without their families.


It took Betancourt 3 months to take ownership of the mariners SS. He relegated everyone in the big league club, AAA, AA and A. This did not happen earlier because Betancourt was out shape.

Let's not talk about Alexei Ramirez.


Kendry is being blocked by his manager.


One day, MLB will be allowed to go to Cuba. Scouts will be able to drive through the Ocho Vias highway accross Cuba. Hopefully, you will be around here.

[Cubano100%]

So you believe all those old Cuban hitters like Pacheco and Mesa and Linares could have gone from swinging aluminum bats in Cuba to swinging wood bats in Cuba?

Those guys had a lot of talent, and it's unfortunate they never got a chance to try to play MLB, but the best Cuban position players today are just as good if not better than the guys from the '70s and '80s, at least when you look at things in terms of the modern M.L. game.



Compete in AAA? The average AAA roster has maybe one player who will go on to become an everyday player in MLB. Meanwhile, Santiago de Cuba's starting lineup is better than at least six major league teams today. If you can find an AAA team that has a better 1B than Ruiz, better 2B than Olivera, better SS than Navas, better 3B than Mustelier and a better OF than Alexei Bell, I'll buy you a new car.



I will insert young prospect Adeiny Echavarria in SS for Navas. Good glove and I think he will be a decent hitter.

[geforce2299]

Everyone *always* believes things used to be better 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, and 99% of the time it's just nostalgic silliness.


Dude, im from this era, im not some old guy that goes to Versailles to kill Fidel everyday, jajajaja, you guys even talk about me on this thread, thats how my girlfriend found it in the first place, i have been able to experience both levels of play and i can speak from my own experience, i've been released a couple of times, and now being without a job i have time to sit on the computer.

[Cubano100%]

The ability to hit a baseball is one thing, wether your using metal, wood, plastic, it doesnt matter. Back then the league was way more competitive than today, several players were displaying ML stuff on the field right there, both pitchers and position players, guys that you could take from Cuba and put them on a ML club and perform right on the spot, and not said by me, all the experts and scouts had the same opinion, heck, Linares was offered a blank check for him to fill out when nobody was close to making A rod's type money. How many MLB ready players do we have today? probably a handfull, thats the difference. I wont argue that the rest someday can become ML players, but the league doesnt produce ML ready players like it did before thus going from being AAA to probably A+.




If players were so great in the 80's and 90's, why many of the defectors in the 90's were good as a bat boy for the most part. Clearly, defectors from this decade are performing very well in all levels of USA baseball.

The defector list you mentioned is a joke. The media repeats anything they see without doing any research. Then, some people repeats whatever the media says. There are retired players, coaches, players that were not part of cuban teams in years, etc in that list.

[Cubano100%]

The best MLB hitter during the last 30 days is the Cuban Missile.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080611&content_id=2893144&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws




I have heard the White Sox announcers saying that the most complete and the best player in the White Sox team is Alexei Ramirez. They even have said that Ramirez is the one that understand the game better than any other White Sox player.

It is hard to believe that the ussually 8th place hitter in the Cuban team is the best player in a MLB team straight from the cuban league. Cuban players are so bad that this must be a joke.

[geforce2299]

You fail to recognize the below oints:

1. Aluminum bats that defectors in the 90's were used to. Andy Morales and Yobal Duenas Duenas played most of their careers with aluminum bats.
2. Cuban players are the only one separated from their families and they are held under a dictatorship. it is hard to concentrate on a baseball game when you have this situation.
3. For all players like Yobal Duenas, Amaury Cazanas, Andy Morales, etc, realizing they are not in the plans is a rude reality. Cazanas this year was not the worst outfielder in his AAA. However, Rasmus who has not hit anything is still playing everyday and Cazanas was sent to Mexico. Youth is a priority for MLB.
4. Other cuban pitchers have done better than Contreras but every situation is different. Once i compared cuban pitchers stats with japaneses, puertorricans, venzuelans, mexicans and dominicans. Cuban pitchers came forth in ERA despite coming to the USA as older players and without their families.



It took Betancourt 3 months to take ownership of the mariners SS. He relegated everyone in the big league club, AAA, AA and A. This did not happen earlier because Betancourt was out shape.

Let's not talk about Alexei Ramirez.


Kendry is being blocked by his manager.



You gotta focus on the total of players that have come over that were good in Cuba on their respective teams VS the ones who have made it. Thats how i look at it. I do understand than family and all of that plays a role and obvioulsy it will be different with no Fidel.


One day, MLB will be alowed to go to Cuba. Scouts will be able to drive through the Ocho Vias highway accross Cuba. Hopefully, you will be around here.

I gotta tell ya, that came out very poetic. :)

[Cubano100%]

I like you to compare the players from previous decades with the defectors in this decade. I am sure you will find that the players in the 90's had better USA career than todays defectors. You have written that past players are better than todays players and I like to see some numbers to back your arguments. Anything than numbers is just pure opinions. I won't debate opinions. Show me numbers.

[Cubano100%]

It just seems to me as if you adopted Senator Clinton's campaign strategy, take credit for everything good that happened during her husband presidency, but none for the bad.

You gotta focus on the total of players that have come over that were good in Cuba on their respective teams VS the ones who have made it. Thats how i look at it. I do understand than family and all of that plays a role and obvioulsy it will be different with no Fidel.

I gotta tell ya, that came out very poetic. :)


Get the list and let's dissect one by one. How many become stars in A, AA, AAA and MLB?

[geforce2299]

I dont think you are reading my posts right, i didnt say there werent ML ready players in Cuba today, but that there are less than before, yes.

Is it true Michel Hernandez, Toca, Juan Carlos Muniz, Maike Quintero, Maels Rodriguez, Osbek Castillo, Michel Abreu , Barbaro Canizares , Maikel Neninger, Yosandry Ibanez, Amaury Sanit along with others, were among the best that we had? YES. Were they MLB ready right out of Cuba, NO.

now

Were Omar Linares, Antonio Pacheco, Orestes Kindelan, Gabriel Pierre, Omar Ajete, Lazaro Valle, German Mesa, Braudilio Vinent to mention a few, MLB ready at their peak of their careers in Cuba? You can bet your house on it.

No doubt Alexei Bell, Urrutia, Lazo, Cepeda are MLB ready but the number is subsequentially less.

Im not arguing the quality of the players, im arguing the quality of the league overall, i personally know guys there that cannot play A ball and are on Industriales and Metros. The league is not AAA, period.

[geforce2299]

Look, numbers dont mean a thing because whatever success or no success you had in Cuba doesnt necessarily transfer to the USA. Scouts dont evaluate talent based on numbers, you could hit .200 in college and still get drafted, you could get called up from AA hitting .250 over a guy whos hitting more like the previus example you gave me. I know sometimes scouts and coaches make mistakes about players but they are usually right. Equipo Cuba back then was worth in dollars more than today's and you know that.

[Cubano100%]

I dont think you are reading my posts right, i didnt say there werent ML ready players in Cuba today, but that there are less than before, yes.

Is it true Michel Hernandez, Toca, Juan Carlos Muniz, Maike Quintero, Maels Rodriguez, Osbek Castillo, Michel Abreu , Barbaro Canizares , Maikel Neninger, Yosandry Ibanez, Amaury Sanit along with others, were among the best that we had? YES. Were they MLB ready right out of Cuba, NO.

now

Were Omar Linares, Antonio Pacheco, Orestes Kindelan, Gabriel Pierre, Omar Ajete, Lazaro Valle, German Mesa, Braudilio Vinent to mention a few, MLB ready at their peak of their careers in Cuba? You can bet your house on it.

No doubt Alexei Bell, Urrutia, Lazo, Cepeda are MLB ready but the number is subsequentially less.

Im not arguing the quality of the players, im arguing the quality of the league overall, i personally know guys there that cannot play A ball and are on Industriales and Metros. The league is not AAA, period.



Sir,

There is no point for me to keep this debate with you. You have included Maikel Neninger, Yosandry Ibanez and Amaury Sanit among the best players in Cuba and that says it all. Those layers were not even among the best players in their team.


Please, Vinent is from a different era.



The numbers are valid and very important. The best players are the ones that produce the most in the baseball field. This is why we have stats and now we even have Sabermetrics.



This is the end of my debate with you.

[geforce2299]

Sir,

There is no point for me to keep this debate with you. You have included Maikel Neninger, Yosandry Ibanez and Amaury Sanit among the best players in Cuba and that says it all. Those layers were not even among the best players in their team.


Please, Vinent is from a different era.



The numbers are valid and very important. The best players are the ones that produce the most in the baseball field. This is why we have stats and now we even have Sabermetrics.



This is the end of my debate with you.

Let me ask you something, have you ever had an AB or thrown a baseball in a competitive game? Maikel Neninger, Yosandry Ibanez and Amaury Sanit were considered at the time to be among the best prospects in Ciudad Habana. I dont know what sources of information you have or if you just look at the stats you find online, but i thought i sensed a little feeling of superiority in your last comments which i dont appreciate, especially coming from someone who has probably never held a bat in his hand before because if you did you would know that scouts could care less about your numbers when they evaluate you first hand.

Read that book again, i think you missed a chapter.

[Agente Libre]

Tranquilo, tranquilo.

We're all on the same side here.

While it's true Neninger, et al., were prospects, it's almost impossible to quantify "prospect" status. While comparing stats might not yield the best possible comparison in a debate about the strength of Cuban baseball, it's the best we have right now.

[Mischa]

Yobal Duenas, it is true he might have been too old and at the downfall of his career, but Jose Ariel Contreras was the same age when he came over and he made it, plus, the Yankees DID take a chance on him he just couldn't perform, i think however he might have been an MLB caliber player at some point in his career.

Uh, Contreras has a 104 ERA+ in the majors and has gone 64-48. He has been an above-average starting pitcher in the big leagues. By what standards could he not perform?

[emanuelsaavedra]

okay, making an argument that the cuban league is not at a good level because of the number of players that fail is not a smart thing to do. Everywhere there are people who fail. You do realize that out of every person who makes it to the majors from the dominican there are 300 others who dont make it. That is the nature of competitive sports.:) We have agreed that a cuban team like santiago could go head to head with a team from the dominican or puerto rico. What makes you think that they could not go up against a AA team, when according to major league standards, they are a AAA level team. I didnt say that santiago was going to be the best team in AAA, but i think that calling them A level is not correct either. Some college teams are better than most A level teams, and we all know that we can take on A level teams.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Also, no we have never taken an at bat in the majors. That is the reason why we are just talking about baseball. Ive never been a major league prospect but ive taken at bats against people who are, heck, ive batted against people who are in AA and AAA right now and soon to be in the majors. I know its hard to hit a 90 mph fastball and a sweeping curveball. But a lot of people can throw a 90 mph fastball are they are not playing in the majors. Heck i could throw a 87 mph fastball in high school and didnt even get a college scholarship, why, because i just couldnt throw it for stikes consistently. What i am trying to say, is you are sounding kind of bitter and angry here and that is not the point of this thread. Lets just focus on just talking about baseball. Having faced good pitching doesnt give you more credibility, so please, lets communicate like human beings and leave the sarcasm and name calling out.

[geforce3399]

Ok, my apologies, its true you dont have to had played to know about it.

Lets start over from the beggining and lets try to keep it simple this time.

You claim that the Serie Nacional is at the AA-AAA level.

I'd like you to set forth facts to back up your claim.

[emanuelsaavedra]

no i am not claiming that the whole thing is at AA to AAA level. For example, teams like Cienfuegos and Guantanamo etc. are not at that level. They would be A level ball. Teams like Industriales and Santiago, which are the dominant teams are in a higher level of baseball. We all agree that team Cuba could be competitive in AAA, and teams like Santiago could easily put various players in team Cuba, so that should tell you that they have the talent to be a high AA or low AAA. Does that sound reasonable?

[emanuelsaavedra]

hey, geforce3399, did i misunderstand you or did you say that you played baseball in the serie nacional? i understand if you dont want to give your name away, but if you did play, what team did you play for and in what position. It would be pretty cool to be talking to somebody that i would have maybe seen play.

[geforce3399]

The fact that there are weaker teams than others is present in every league of the world but it is not taken into consideration when categorizing the level of play of a league.

example: Clearly the Kansas City Royals cannot compete at that level, but MLB is still MLB rather than, the Yankees are MLB and the Royals are AAA.

so, could we agree that the overall level of play of of the Serie Nacional is at A+?

[Cubano100%]

Uh, Contreras has a 104 ERA+ in the majors and has gone 64-48. He has been an above-average starting pitcher in the big leagues. By what standards could he not perform?

Good point. Contreras came when he was 31. We know that his family was retained back home and authorities called his former wife names and stopped her frequently. Who is going to perform well having this kind of problems?

Last year, he went through a divorced. The Chicago media covered this. Contreras had a second half in 2005 and the first half in 2006 as good as anyone. If he had done it in the same year, we will be taking a Cy Young candidate here.


I think you are dominican and maybe dominican fans are very demanding like cubans. It is like all cubans defectors have to make it to MLB and be stars. It does not matter that maybe they played their entire careers with aluminum bats. It does not matter that some came old for MLB. It does not matter than some have languished in third countries for 2 -3 years waiting for some documents to sign. It does not matter that among the 160 defectors list, there are some coaches, retired players, etc.

If we take the 160 defectors, cubans have one of the highest % of players that made it to MLB compared to other countries. I am not saying we are the best players becuase that % probably will drop if we allow all cuban players to come to the USA, but at least it shows we can compete.

[Cubano100%]

There are MLB teams that bring a new batch of prospects every year. Some of them do well and some don't do well. These temas simply do not have the money to go after veteran players that may be better than these prospects from A, AA and AAA. Therefore, the term MLB player is very misleading.


By the way, YOSANDRI IBAÑEZ had an 8.34 ERA and MAIKEL NENINGER had an ERA of 5.80. I guess these kind of numbers make you a good prospect. Both pitchers went between Mexico and Nicaragua for quite some time (at least 2 years). At least YOSANDRY was signed and played in A ball.


As for playing competitive baseball, I was considered the second coming of Omar Linares. :cap:

[Cubano100%]

Let me ask you something, have you ever had an AB or thrown a baseball in a competitive game? Maikel Neninger, Yosandry Ibanez and Amaury Sanit were considered at the time to be among the best prospects in Ciudad Habana. I dont know what sources of information you have or if you just look at the stats you find online, but i thought i sensed a little feeling of superiority in your last comments which i dont appreciate, especially coming from someone who has probably never held a bat in his hand before because if you did you would know that scouts could care less about your numbers when they evaluate you first hand.

Read that book again, i think you missed a chapter.



So these guys went from being one of the best prospects in Cuba to being one of the best prospects in Ciudad Habana. Their status is dropping quickly man.

[Cubano100%]

Amaury Cazanas is hitting over 450 in the Mexican AAA.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Amaury%20Marti&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=502973

[50PoundHead]

I'm an Atlanta Braves' fan and watch their minor league teams very closely. I see that Cuban defector Donell Linares made his Dominican Summer League debut on Tuesday, June 24. I did a quick internet search and it brought me here, where it's obvious there's a gold mine of information on Cuban players.

Does anyone here have any information on Linares, particularly how old he is?

By the way, I was born and raised in Minnesota and found the discussion of all-time Cuban greats very interesting. As many here know, former Washington Senators and Minnesota Twins owner Calvin Griffith scouted and signed a great number of Cuban players, particularly Camilo Pascual (best curve ball I've ever seen), Zoilo Versalles, and (let's not forget) Pedro Ramos.

Great site. I hope to stop by every once and awhile.

[Cubano100%]

Donel Linares is from Havana. He has been out of Cuba for a while. I guess because he had no name he had to wait longer for his dominican papers.

[emanuelsaavedra]

hey, you guys, anyone knows any info regarding kendry and trades. Cant wait untill i see him wearing a MLB uniform which is not red and white with a big A. Besides that, is there any reason why the braves are not bringing up canizares. I know that he wont play at 1st with teixeira, but if they can get him a few at bats, and he does well, he could be a good trade bait for some pitching. Specially seeing how so many teams are looking for bats in the trade deadline.

[50PoundHead]

hey, you guys, anyone knows any info regarding kendry and trades. Cant wait untill i see him wearing a MLB uniform which is not red and white with a big A. Besides that, is there any reason why the braves are not bringing up canizares. I know that he wont play at 1st with teixeira, but if they can get him a few at bats, and he does well, he could be a good trade bait for some pitching. Specially seeing how so many teams are looking for bats in the trade deadline.

Supposedly Canizares isn't that good in the field and only plays 1B when in the field. Guy can hit though and I sure would have rather have had him at the plate with the tying run on 3rd with two outs in the 9th last night instead of Corky Miller. Braves are so thin on the bench, my guess is it's their logic that they need everyone on the bench (except Miller the back-up catcher) to be able to play more than one position.

It will be interesting to see how much of a shot the Braves give Canizares when Teixeira walks in the off-season.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Anyways, i think that the Braves should give Canizares a chance and he might turn into a good pinch hitter for them, even though it is not easy to be a good hitter while getting 2-3 at bats a series. Again, has anyone heard any trade rumors on kendry. I dont see why someone like the Jays dont go after him, they need a bat and we all know that they wont get adam dunn. I still would like to see kendry wearing a marlins uniform better. But if not, i'd like to just see him traded, somewhere

[J.P]

Supposedly Canizares isn't that good in the field and only plays 1B when in the field. Guy can hit though and I sure would have rather have had him at the plate with the tying run on 3rd with two outs in the 9th last night instead of Corky Miller. Braves are so thin on the bench, my guess is it's their logic that they need everyone on the bench (except Miller the back-up catcher) to be able to play more than one position.

It will be interesting to see how much of a shot the Braves give Canizares when Teixeira walks in the off-season.

Cañizares came up as a catcher in Cuba, even though I dont think he was too good defensively since he was later on used mostly as a DH; I'm sure he can still play the position, but at this point I'm also sure that he is inferior defensively to Brayan Peña, and we all know the Braves preferred Miller's defense to Brayan's bat.

[Cubano100%]

Agente, look at this:

First, he goes to second when the LF follows sleep. Then, look at the feed to SS Cabrera. That is quite elegant for somebody that played 2B for team Cuba sporadically.


http://www.4shared.com/file/52954927/4d8b1879/Alexei_Ramirez_080626.html



How about this one?

http://www.4shared.com/file/52690581/ecd96421/Alexei_Ramirez_080624_-_Comentaristas.html

[Cubano100%]

Yoslan Herrera was promoted to AAA.

[Richard]

Escobar, Betancourt and now Ramirez will be moved to shortstop next season, how many great shortstops do you have down there?

[Agente Libre]

Cubano100% -- Thanks for posting all those videos. Ramirez is doing very well, which isn't a big surprise.


Richard -- Did Chicago announce that, or is that just speculation? I like Ramirez, but he seems more like a 2B than a SS to me.

[Richard]

I think Peter Gammons said he might take over shortstop next season.

[J.P]

Ryde Rodriguez is playing with the Cards in the GCL.

[Cubano100%]

More about Ramirez and the debate over SS or 2B.

http://www.4shared.com/file/53314487/4dd0edb2/Alexei_Ramirez_080629.html

[Cubano100%]

Escobar, Betancourt and now Ramirez will be moved to shortstop next season, how many great shortstops do you have down there?


We have a few with MLB talent. They have to come and prove themselves though. I like Yadiel Mujica from Matanzas Crocodiles, Adonis Garcia from Ciego de Avila Tigers, Alexander Ayala from Camaguey Ceramists, Yorbis Borroto from Ciego de Avila. Borroto is very good defensivaly but not that great with the bat. Then, you have youngters Adeyni Echavarria from Santiago de Cuba Wasps and Jose Iglesias from the Havana Cowboys. Those are the youngest ones.

[Richard]

That is a lot of talent! It is too bad that we in America cannot see that talent but I have watched Ramirez play on television from Chicago and he really has a feel for the game. I can't wait for the next WBC.

[Agente Libre]

They're probably listed here somewhere already but I'm not sure where. I need the career Cuban pitching stats for Orlando Hernandez, Livan Hernandez, Jose Contreras and Alay Soler. I'm mostly interested in innings pitched, hits allowed, ERA, strikeouts and walks. If anyone can help, it would be much appreciated. Thanks very much.

[Mischa]

They're probably listed here somewhere already but I'm not sure where. I need the career Cuban pitching stats for Orlando Hernandez, Livan Hernandez, Jose Contreras and Alay Soler. I'm mostly interested in innings pitched, hits allowed, ERA, strikeouts and walks. If anyone can help, it would be much appreciated. Thanks very much.

El Duque 1,514 1/3 IP 1,339 H 3.05 ERA 455 BB 1,221 K
Livan 335 IP 361 H 4.57 ERA 127 BB 311 K
Contreras 1,473 IP 1,327 H 2.82 ERA 514 BB 1,346 K
Soler 270 1/3 IP 240 H 3.53 ERA 109 BB 235 K

Hope that helps.

[Agente Libre]

'Mischa' - Awesome. Thanks very much. Can you tell me where you got those stats, just so I can quote the source? I assume it's from an old Guia or a Cuban site, but not sure. Thanks again.

[Cubano100%]

Alexei's game-tying home run .
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_07_01_clemlb_chamlb_1&mode=wrap

[Mischa]

'Mischa' - Awesome. Thanks very much. Can you tell me where you got those stats, just so I can quote the source? I assume it's from an old Guia or a Cuban site, but not sure. Thanks again.

The 2005 Guia

[Paula59]

Today Germany vs France at Mannheim/German as start of a Series of Exhibition Games.
Starter for Germany is Cuban Born LHP Enorbel Marquez.

You can follow the game via I-Net http://www.zaplive.tv/web/producer/markt-und-strategie-tv?streamId=markt-und-strategie-tv%2F2635ac28-5e0e-4f3c-b7f9-3dbd07c41191

The picquality is low and it looks like they only have 1 camera but you still can enjoy it.

[Cubano100%]

Today Germany vs France at Mannheim/German as start of a Series of Exhibition Games.
Starter for Germany is Cuban Born LHP Enorbel Marquez.

You can follow the game via I-Net http://www.zaplive.tv/web/producer/markt-und-strategie-tv?streamId=markt-und-strategie-tv%2F2635ac28-5e0e-4f3c-b7f9-3dbd07c41191

The picquality is low and it looks like they only have 1 camera but you still can enjoy it.


Thank you.

[Cubano100%]

The skinny on Alexei


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-080705-alexei-ramirez-white-sox-downey,0,6047836.column?page=1

[Cubano100%]

Yunel Escobar made a great catch:
http://www.4shared.com/file/54225989/5357a378/Yunel_Escobar_080706.html

[Cubano100%]

The rumor in Cuba now is that LHP Aroldis Chapman was left out of the cuban team because he tried to defect. A cuban internet portal in exile citing inside information in the island is reporting that Chapman tried to leave from Playa Blanca (White Beach) in Holguin. The cuban police intercepted a phone call and they sent the info to the sport authorities.

http://www.cubaencuentro.com/es/deportes/articulos/donde-esta-aroldis-chapman-95372

I hope he can get out soon. He is the best cuban pitcher now. This guy is around 20-21 years old. He is special. 97 MPH heater, lefty and tall with long arms. This took place last year in a warmup game ahead of the Intercontinental Cup in Chinese Taipei. He pitched against professional players from the Taipei league. You may have to stop the "We will rock you video". Then, wait for the mini clips to appear and click on them.

http://blog.xuite.net/weijunlin/blogbrother/14208394

[emanuelsaavedra]

with all the trade rumors going around, has any one of you guys heard anything on a trade involving kendry? Man i cant wait until i see him away from Anaheim. Besides, what is he injured from, i am seeing him listed on the dl but no explanation why.

[Cubano100%]

Alexei's speed:


First he scored from first with a line drive to LF. Then, he scored from 2nd on a sacrifly fly.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20080708&content_id=3094527&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

[Cubano100%]

According to Enrique Rojas from ESPNdeportes.com, Viciedo is going to the D.R. to get his legal papers there. His agent Torres said that MLB is taking to long to decide his situation.


It is amazing how MLB block the cubans. They can easily say he is or is not a free agent. They have taking a lot of time to decide on purpose. MLB is full of crap.

[Cubano100%]

FOX Ken Rosenthal speaks about Alexei:

Two GM's wanted to start Reamirez en AA if their teams would have signed him. No way!!!

http://www.4shared.com/file/53594257/1ada4791/Alexei_Ramirez_080701-4.html

[Agente Libre]

According to Enrique Rojas from ESPNdeportes.com, Viciedo is going to the D.R. to get his legal papers there. His agent Torres said that MLB is taking to long to decide his situation.

It is amazing how MLB block the cubans. They can easily say he is or is not a free agent. They have taking a lot of time to decide on purpose. MLB is full of crap.

I bet Torres is the one full of crap in this particular case. I doubt Torres ever sent Viciedo's information to MLB, because he knows MLB would put Viciedo in the 2009 draft. There have been other cases just like this in the past, and MLB usually makes a ruling within a couple days.

[Cubano100%]

Vladimir Nuñez was called up by the Braves and Alberto Castillo was called up by the Orioles.

[Cubano100%]

I bet Torres is the one full of crap in this particular case. I doubt Torres ever sent Viciedo's information to MLB, because he knows MLB would put Viciedo in the 2009 draft. There have been other cases just like this in the past, and MLB usually makes a ruling within a couple days.


How do we know one way or the other?

Torres was quoted saying he sent the info. Torres has kept his cuban clients. I guess he has been honest with them and this is why the return to him besides getting good contracts for them.

[J.P]

The whole situation with the Cuban defectors is crap, but I dont think we wanna get into that again....

[Agente Libre]

How do we know one way or the other?

Torres was quoted saying he sent the info. Torres has kept his cuban clients. I guess he has been honest with them and this is why the return to him besides getting good contracts for them.

Hey, don't kill the messenger here. If Torres sent official notice to MLB that Viciedo is in the U.S., then MLB would have put Viciedo in the 2009 draft by now. There's nothing unique about Viciedo's situation; MLB has been through it dozens of times now.

As for Torres, he's done some good work (Jose Contreras) and some not-so-good work (Alexei Ramirez). He's certainly not considered a genius around MLB, that's for sure.

The whole situation with the Cuban defectors is crap, but I dont think we wanna get into that again....

Agreed, re: both parts.

[Cubano100%]

How about Betancourt's extension?

You know MLB does not want to pay cubans lots of money.

For some reasons, Torres has most of the cuban clientele.



Weren't you happy with Ramirez's contract? I think I recall you were happy after he signed for that money.

[Agente Libre]

Come on, 'Cubano'. You know I disagree with a lot of MLB's rules for Cubans, etc., etc., but that doesn't have anything to do with Viciedo's specific situation.

If Viciedo really came through Mexico, why didn't he just stay there and get papers? He could have been a free agent by now. Why would Viciedo go all the way from Cuba to Cancun to Texas to Miami, and then leave for Santo Domingo a month later? It doesn't make any sense.

How about Betancourt's extension?

You know MLB does not want to pay cubans lots of money.

For some reasons, Torres has most of the cuban clientele.

Betancourt's extension isn't anything great compared to other extensions signed by young players lately.

You're right that Torres has a lot of Cuban clients, but it's not like he's a miracle worker. He made millions of dollars from Contreras and he's been able to use that money to get more Cubans.

Weren't you happy with Ramirez's contract? I think I recall you were happy after he signed for that money.

Were *you* happy with Ramirez's contract? Why should Ramirez, one of Cuba's best young players, sign for $4 million when guys like Kaz Matsui and Fukudome are getting $25 million and $48 million? Danys Baez signed for over $10 million almost 10 years ago, and even Andy Morales' (voided) contract signed in 2000 was worth more than Alexei Ramirez's guaranteed money. Ten years later, why are *better* players signing for *less* money?

[Cubano100%]

Cubano -- I root for Cuban defectors as much as anyone, but the facts seem to indicate that interest in Ramirez is very low. Unlike with guys like Contreras or Kendry when teams were openly saying that they really wanted those players, I haven't heard Ramirez's name associated with any particular team except the Indians, and I'm not even sure how he fits on that team.

As I've said here and elsewhere, Alexei Ramirez is, without question, a very good baseball player. Unfortunately, his skills do not easily translate into an everyday job in MLB -- i.e., he doesn't have enough power to play a corner outfield position, and he doesn't appear to have the skills to play middle infield everyday (or else he would have been doing so in Cuba for Pinar).

I'm sure he'll sign an MLB contract and I hope he proves me wrong. But when a player like Ramirez is a free agent for over a month and there's not a single major news story about him, that means interest is low. (Even the best Dominican kids were getting U.S. media coverage this year.)


Agente:

This was your opinion 3 months ago or so. Many scouts compared Ramirez's power to Julio Lugo. Boy, they were dead wrong. Ha, ha , ha. I love when MLB makes a clown of themselves.

You know MLB takes advantage of the cuban situation. There is no money for cubans right now. They are all in bed with Castro. They do not need cuban players because the cuban fans inside the island do not represent money to MLB. They can not buy anything from MLB.

[Agente Libre]

'Cubano' -- We've been friends for years, so I don't understand why you're being so argumentative here. You made a comment about Viciedo above, and all I did was say that I doubt what Torres is telling the media is true since Viciedo's case is exactly the same as about 30 defectors before him.

Agente:

This was your opinion 3 months ago or so. Many scouts compared Ramirez's power to Julio Lugo. Boy, they were dead wrong. Ha, ha , ha. I love when MLB makes a clown of themselves.

That was my opinion then, and it's still my opinion now. If there was heavy interest in Alexei Ramirez last winter, why did he sign for $4 million after Torres was asking for $20 million? (And remember, the scout who signed Alexei Ramirez for the White Sox, David Wilder, was recently fired for corruption, so we don't even know if the Ramirez deal was totally clean.)

You know MLB takes advantage of the cuban situation. There is no money for cubans right now. They are all in bed with Castro. They do not need cuban players because the cuban fans inside the island do not represent money to MLB. They can not buy anything from MLB.

I disagree with a lot of MLB's rules for Cubans, but your comments above are kind of ridiculous. What do you mean, "There is no money for Cubans right now"? Teams have been spending millions and millions on Cuban players in the last few years -- e.g., Yuniesky Betancourt, Kendry Morales, Yunel Escobar, Juan Miguel Miranda, Yoslan Herrera, Alexei Ramirez.

But Cubans aren't going to get the big money until the agents start fighting for it, and when agents like Jaime Torres have a reputation for not knowing too much about MLB players or even his own clients, teams aren't going to say, "Here, have $20 million" when they can get away with offering $2 million or $4 million. That's just how the world works, whether it's MLB or a car salesman.

Torres wanted $10 million for Yoslan Herrera and he signed for less than $2 million. Torres wanted $2 million for Serguey Linares and he signed for around $100,000. Torres wanted $2 million for Yohannis Perez and he signed for $600,000. Torres wanted $20 million for Alexei Ramirez, and marketed him as a center fielder, and he signed for $4 million as a second baseman. Torres wanted $1 million for Maikel Pena, and as far as I know, that kid is still unsigned in the Dominican after almost a year.

I'm not trying to beat up on Torres, but those are the facts. Unlike an agent like Scott Boras, teams know Jaime Torres will settle for way less than he asks, and that's usually what happens. All I'm saying is, something is seriously wrong when players like Danys Baez and Andy Morales got bigger contracts almost 10 years ago than Alexei Ramirez got in 2007.

[Cubano100%]

There is no money for cubans. MLB does not want to spend money on cubans. I am talking about big money no 2-4 millions for 4 years. That is the history. There have been several agents involved with cubans and none have landed big contracts except for one or two players. Can you name any agent who have landed big contracts for a cuban player initially?


All those players you mentioned have signed for pennies initially. Now, once they become a free agent, that is another story.

Torres marketed Alexei as a CF becose he was a CF in Cuba for 7 years. How can you market someone as a SS when he played the position in his rookie year and that's it?


Do you think the next japanese imports are going to get Matsuzaka or Igawa type money from MLB?

I do not think so. Five-ten years from now, MLB will find a way to pay less for japanese imports.


Let's see what Viciedo gets.

[Cubano100%]

I bet you that if the Embargo is lifted, Cuba opens up like China and Vietnam, and Castro makes a deal with MLB, cubans will get more money through a posting system independently of any agent they may have. MLB will go crazy to put their little fingers in the cuban market and overpaid cubans probably just like they are overpaying the japaneses.

[Cubano100%]

And yes! MLB is in bed with Castro. They have been in bed since the Orioles went to Cuba. Don't do anything that appears encouraging defections or making easy for cubans to succeed. MLB makes it harder for cubans to succeed as a result of their policies. MLB helps every other nationality through academies and posting systems. MLB even had policies against the cubans. Japan is the same. I am cuban and I know how the clowns in the cuban government operates not only with MLB, but also with other sports organizations around the world.

[Martin Dihigo]

Herrera is shown as the probable starter tomorrow night for Pittsburgh
against the Cardinals. According to mlb.com:

"The Pirates recalled Herrera after Friday night's game. The 27-year-old Cuban defector will start for Phil Dumatrait, who was placed on the disabled list with continued shoulder problems. Herrera was signed by the Pirates on Dec. 18, 2006, as a non-drafted free agent from Cuba. He spent the 2001-04 seasons playing for the Cuban national team. He was 3-5 with a 3.43 ERA in 10 starts this season for Double-A Altoona"

Go Yoslan . . .

r

[J.P]

I dont totally agree with Cubano, but I dont totally agree with Agente either, i think that the fact of how players like Andy Morales and Danys Baez turned out is whats making teams offer less to cubans, I also think that if more and more Escobars,Betancourts, and Ramirezes turn out, then agents (Torres included) are going to again get better contracts for the cuban defectors.

[Agente Libre]

There is no money for cubans. MLB does not want to spend money on cubans. I am talking about big money no 2-4 millions for 4 years. That is the history. There have been several agents involved with cubans and none have landed big contracts except for one or two players. Can you name any agent who have landed big contracts for a cuban player initially?

Relatively speaking, a lot of Cubans have signed for big money:

-- Rolando Arrojo signed for almost $8 million in 1997.
-- Danys Baez signed for over $10 million in 2000.
-- Andy Morales signed for over $4 million in 2000 or 2001.
-- Jose Contreras signed for $32 million in 2002.
-- Kendry Morales signed for between $6 and $10 million in 2004.

Again, 'Cubano', I'm not trying to argue with you, or to bash Jaime Torres. But you seem to be missing the point here. If MLB teams just gave players what they were worth, players wouldn't need agents at all. The agent's job is to know the player, know what he is worth, and fight for that amount. When Scott Boras says a player is worth $20 million, the player usually gets $20 million, because Boras knows his players, he knows MLB, and he knows how to make the case for his clients. But Torres has a long history of saying a player is worth $10 million and then (quickly) settling for $1 or $2 million.

If you were running an MLB team, would you give a player $10 million if you knew you could sign him for $2 million? Of course not. It would be stupid.

All those players you mentioned have signed for pennies initially. Now, once they become a free agent, that is another story.

Come on, "pennies"? But if they've signed for less than they're worth, whose fault is that? The agent or the team?

Torres marketed Alexei as a CF becose he was a CF in Cuba for 7 years. How can you market someone as a SS when he played the position in his rookie year and that's it?

Alexei played enough infield in Cuba to be marketed as a second baseman last winter, and that's what should have been done, especially since there were already 5-7 good free agent center fielders on the market.

Do you think the next japanese imports are going to get Matsuzaka or Igawa type money from MLB?

I do not think so. Five-ten years from now, MLB will find a way to pay less for japanese imports.

Well, Fukudome got $48 million from the Cubs last winter while Alexei was signing for $4 million. And if a guy like Yu Darvish becomes available, I'm sure teams will go crazy for him.

Let's see what Viciedo gets.

Well, how much do you think he should get? And whose job is it to get that money?

I bet you that if the Embargo is lifted, Cuba opens up like China and Vietnam, and Castro makes a deal with MLB, cubans will get more money through a posting system independently of any agent they may have. MLB will go crazy to put their little fingers in the cuban market and overpaid cubans probably just like they are overpaying the japaneses.

I see your point, but Japanese players can still become millionaires in Japan. Unless Castro starts paying Cuban players millions of dollars, MLB teams won't have to go crazy in a Cuban posting system.

And yes! MLB is in bed with Castro. They have been in bed since the Orioles went to Cuba. Don't do anything that appears encouraging defections or making easy for cubans to succeed. MLB makes it harder for cubans to succeed as a result of their policies. MLB helps every other nationality through academies and posting systems. MLB even had policies against the cubans. Japan is the same. I am cuban and I know how the clowns in the cuban government operates not only with MLB, but also with other sports organizations around the world.

Well, Jose Contreras was the poster boy for the Orioles/Cuba games, and two years after those games he signed a (then-record) MLB contract for $32 million, so I'm not sure that theory totally holds up. (I do, as you know, agree that a lot of MLB's policies for Cubans are unfair.)

I dont totally agree with Cubano, but I dont totally agree with Agente either, i think that the fact of how players like Andy Morales and Danys Baez turned out is whats making teams offer less to cubans, I also think that if more and more Escobars,Betancourts, and Ramirezes turn out, then agents (Torres included) are going to again get better contracts for the cuban defectors.

No question, the failure of guys like Andy Morales made some MLB teams a little cautious with Cubans, but teams have wasted a *LOT* more money on Asian players, and that hasn't stopped MLB teams from spending bigger and bigger money in Asia.

The biggest problem with Cubans is that they usually end up with agents who either have no clue and/or only care about getting a contract done ASAP so they can put some money in their own pocket. Look at the agents for Cubans:

-- Gus Dominguez is in federal prison until 2011 or 2012 and will be banned from representing players when he gets out.
-- Jaime Torres has been named in federal court as a suspect in smuggling cases.
-- Michael Maulini, Henry Vilar and John DiManno have reportedly been connected to smuggling cases.
-- Joe Cubas has been banned from representing baseball players by the MLBPA.
-- Bill Rego has been banned from representing baseball players by the MLBPA.

The above list is why Cuban players usually don't sign for what they're worth, not because MLB teams have some conspiracy against Cubans.

[J.P]

Again, i partially agree with you Agente: I also dont believe that teams have a conspiracy against Cubans, but I dont think it is only the agents' fault that they are not getting what they "deserve". I mean, in the mid to late 90's, even early 00's, these agents were cashing in on cuban players' mystique, when most of these players didnt live up to the expectations, it made teams realize that throwing 10 millions around to a cuban defector is a rather high risk investment. And I mean, its not like teams really know muh about these playersto know whch ones area good investment and which ones are not, unlike the Asian players, who get scouted and teams get to see them play for years before they are postd.

[Agente Libre]

Again, i partially agree with you Agente: I also dont believe that teams have a conspiracy against Cubans, but I dont think it is only the agents' fault that they are not getting what they "deserve". I mean, in the mid to late 90's, even early 00's, these agents were cashing in on cuban players' mystique, when most of these players didnt live up to the expectations, it made teams realize that throwing 10 millions around to a cuban defector is a rather high risk investment. And I mean, its not like teams really know muh about these playersto know whch ones area good investment and which ones are not, unlike the Asian players, who get scouted and teams get to see them play for years before they are postd.

That's true, but there's also a lot more info. available now than in the '90s. MLB teams might not know too much about a lot of defectors, but they can catch up quickly if the right info. is put out there. (It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of teams are already scouting Cuba by satellite dish, since so many games are on Cuban TV.)

[Cubano100%]

Danys Baez, Jose Contreras and Rolando Arrojo are pitchers. MLB needs pitching. Therefore, any pitcher will have advantage over a position player.

How about Rolando Viera, Arrian Cruz, and other players in like Serguey Linares, Edisbel Benitez, Jorge Diaz, Angel Lopez, Alberto Hernandez, Yohennis Perez, etc? Who represented them and how much MLB offered them? Pennies and more pennies.




MLB has to everpaid for japanese players because they can say go to hell and I am staying in Japan because I am a millionare.



Andy Morales was the fifth or sixth best 3B in his generation and past his prime. Blame de Yankees and their poor scouting.


I am leaving this discussion here.

By the way, how in the heck Fukudome is the starting CF in the all stars game when there are 7 CF's with better numbers and he plays RF where he also has several RF's with better numbers.


I guess the entire Japan voted for him. Just wait for the chinese players to come to the USA. Nobody in MLB nor the USA media talks about this crap and the all star game. Actually, this game should be rename the non all star game.

[Cubano100%]

Again, i partially agree with you Agente: I also dont believe that teams have a conspiracy against Cubans, but I dont think it is only the agents' fault that they are not getting what they "deserve". I mean, in the mid to late 90's, even early 00's, these agents were cashing in on cuban players' mystique, when most of these players didnt live up to the expectations, it made teams realize that throwing 10 millions around to a cuban defector is a rather high risk investment. And I mean, its not like teams really know muh about these playersto know whch ones area good investment and which ones are not, unlike the Asian players, who get scouted and teams get to see them play for years before they are postd.


Did you forget about the Orioles and their cuban explicit policies?

Have you forgotten why none of the japanese teams show interest in cuban defectors?

Have you forgotten all the lobbying the cuban government does with other sport organizations around the world? World Track and Field, FIVB, etc.

What do cuban defectors have to do in these sports?

How many times have you heard these clowns on top of these organizations speak against defections?



By the way, Danys Baez has had a good MLB career.

[Cubano100%]

That's true, but there's also a lot more info. available now than in the '90s. MLB teams might not know too much about a lot of defectors, but they can catch up quickly if the right info. is put out there. (It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of teams are already scouting Cuba by satellite dish, since so many games are on Cuban TV.)

Exactly, how are you going to market Ramirez as an infielder when he did not play 2B to much. He played there for team Cuba in an emergency basis. He played SS in his rookie year and that's it. He played 7 years as a CF. Are you saying now that Torres could sell him in other positions and MLB will digest it as simply as that? Alexei is 26 years old not 20 years old. Anyways, the cuban missil is tied with Alex Rodriguez in 8th place. He needs around 30 more AB to qualify.

[Cubano100%]

Alexei surpased his Cuban League average in stolen bases (6) and doubles (13) in 400 VB per cuban season. He has 231 AB this season with 7 SB and 13 doubles. He averaged 13 HR in 400 AB per season in Cuba. He has 7 in MLB.

[Cubano100%]

More about Alexei:

http://mvn.com/mlb-whitesox/2008/07/14/kenny-williams-%E2%80%93-take-a-bow-for-landing-the-%E2%80%9Ccuban-missile%E2%80%9D/

[Agente Libre]

Danys Baez, Jose Contreras and Rolando Arrojo are pitchers. MLB needs pitching. Therefore, any pitcher will have advantage over a position player.

No argument there.

How about Rolando Viera, Arrian Cruz, and other players in like Serguey Linares, Edisbel Benitez, Jorge Diaz, Angel Lopez, Alberto Hernandez, Yohennis Perez, etc? Who represented them and how much MLB offered them? Pennies and more pennies.

As you know, I'm quite familiar with many of the players on the above list. While all of them were very good players in Cuba and probably deserved better contracts (and treatment) than they received in MLB, it's unfair to suggest they should have been millionaires, either.

Viera was a good but not great lefty who barely threw 90. Cruz was a crafty lefty who stands about 5-foot-8 and didn't have much of a track record in Cuba. Serguey Linares was brutal in Cuba (seen his stats?), but could throw hard. Edisbel Benitez basically retired for 3 years after defecting in 2004; he blew off so many workouts he has no one to blame but himself. Jorge Diaz, Angel Lopez and Alberto Hernandez were all borderline great players in Cuba, but position players pushing 30 years old who used aluminum bats their entire careers in Cuba will never be in big demand by MLB. (And Yohennis Perez signed for over $600,000 with the (cheap) Milwaukee Brewers, so it's not like MLB ripped him off.)

MLB has to everpaid for japanese players because they can say go to hell and I am staying in Japan because I am a millionare.

Exactly right, but that's not MLB's fault.

Andy Morales was the fifth or sixth best 3B in his generation and past his prime. Blame de Yankees and their poor scouting.

Exactly right.

By the way, how in the heck Fukudome is the starting CF in the all stars game when there are 7 CF's with better numbers and he plays RF where he also has several RF's with better numbers.

I guess the entire Japan voted for him. Just wait for the chinese players to come to the USA. Nobody in MLB nor the USA media talks about this crap and the all star game. Actually, this game should be rename the non all star game.

Ha ha. Exactly right about this, too.

Exactly, how are you going to market Ramirez as an infielder when he did not play 2B to much. He played there for team Cuba in an emergency basis. He played SS in his rookie year and that's it. He played 7 years as a CF. Are you saying now that Torres could sell him in other positions and MLB will digest it as simply as that? Alexei is 26 years old not 20 years old. Anyways, the cuban missil is tied with Alex Rodriguez in 8th place. He needs around 30 more AB to qualify.

Wait a minute. You seem to be arguing against yourself above. If Ramirez was too old to be marketed as a 2B, then why was he able to do it during a few games in spring training? Obviously, Ramirez has spent a *lot* of time working out as an infielder. As you said in another thread, the Equipo Cuba guys all spend months and months in training, so if Ramirez saw himself as a 2B, he should have been marketed as a 2B last winter, *especially* after teams were saying Ramirez is way too small to be a CF or to have OF power in MLB.

Again, we're on the same side here, but business is business. You and I don't pay more than we need to when we buy a car or new shoes or whatever; why should MLB just hand over $40 million to Alexei Ramirez if him and his agent will be happy with $4 million?

[Cubano100%]

Agente:

You wrote that Serguei Linares should have gotten a better contract a few posts back. You implied that Torres is responsible for his bad contract. Linares was nobody in Cuba.


Don't you thing that MLB knows that Ramirez played CF in Cuba?

By the way, how are those great CF who were a free agents like Alexei are doing these season?

These are the class of 2007. I invite to check the stats and compare them to Alexei's numbers. It looks like the scouts did not know what they were doing by passing on Alexei as a CF.

Andrew Jones
Aaron Rowand
Torii Hunter
Mike Cameron
Kenny Lofton
Kosuke Fukudome
Corey Patterson

[Cubano100%]

Mr. J.P. shared this article in the cuban forum, but I guess he is taking a lot of time to post it here. Ha,ha,ha.


Delia Dominguez said on page 12: "From the moment the trial started, she says, “I felt that I was outside of my life, looking down on our lives. Gus loved this country and what it stood for. He loved this country. When I heard them say, ‘The United States of America versus Gus Dominguez,’ my heart just sank.”


Gus Dominguez said: "And why, in the end, was this crime he says he didn’t commit so awful? Even more than ordinary citizens, Cuban ballplayers are prisoners of the state. “The most prized possessions to Fidel Castro were the baseball players,” says Dominguez. A democratic government should encourage, not punish, those who seek to help victims of tyranny to escape. “If this country cannot say to those people, ‘Come to us—we’ll give you freedom,’ where else can they go?”

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/07/cuban_baseball200807?currentPage=1


The USA policies are inconsistent. Fifty, fourty, thirty, twenty and ten years ago, Mr. Dominguez would have been invited to the White House for helping cubans escape. The USA government and CIA have done worse things than this. They prepared Bay of Pigs and other activities against Cuba by training cubans and facilitating arms deals, etc. They have encouraged cuban to leave the country by boat, raft, smuggling, etc. Now all of the sudden, they chaged their policy. If Gus Dominguez should be in jail, CIA and ex-USA government employees should be prosecuted for far worse activities involving cubans. American policies are as inconsistent as they can get not only on this, but also in other world policies. Everything is a big farse just like the cuban mafia in Cuba.

[Agente Libre]

Agente:

You wrote that Serguei Linares should have gotten a better contract a few posts back. You implied that Torres is responsible for his bad contract. Linares was nobody in Cuba.

No, I didn't say that at all. I said *Torres* said Serguey Linares was worth millions and then signed him with Pittsburgh for around $100,000. When agents pull crap like that, they lose credibility.

Don't you thing that MLB knows that Ramirez played CF in Cuba?

Of course they do, but they also (a) knew he played a lot of infield for the national team and (b) obviously didn't like him as a center fielder, so he should have been marketed at his best position, or at least his most logical position in MLB.

By the way, how are those great CF who were a free agents like Alexei are doing these season?

These are the class of 2007. I invite to check the stats and compare them to Alexei's numbers. It looks like the scouts did not know what they were doing by passing on Alexei as a CF.

Andrew Jones
Aaron Rowand
Torii Hunter
Mike Cameron
Kenny Lofton
Kosuke Fukudome
Corey Patterson

Well, Alexei is playing 2B in MLB, so comparing him to last year's center fielder class is moot.

... The USA policies are inconsistent. Fifty, fourty, thirty, twenty and ten years ago, Mr. Dominguez would have been invited to the White House for helping cubans escape. The USA government and CIA have done worse things than this. They prepared Bay of Pigs and other activities against Cuba by training cubans and facilitating arms deals, etc. They have encouraged cuban to leave the country by boat, raft, smuggling, etc. Now all of the sudden, they chaged their policy. If Gus Dominguez should be in jail, CIA and ex-USA government employees should be prosecuted for far worse activities involving cubans. American policies are as inconsistent as they can get not only on this, but also in other world policies. Everything is a big farse just like the cuban mafia in Cuba.

This dialogue is getting a little crazy, and a lot off-track, and I don't want to delve too deeply into political discussions we all know Mr. Albright frowns upon. But just as a quick reply, smuggling people to the U.S. has *always* been a federal crime, and it seems absurd to suggest that a Cuban-American like Gus Dominguez has some sort of special license to smuggle people to the U.S. whenever he wants.

If I put some Chinese people in the trunk of my car and get caught driving them across the U.S./Canada or U.S./Mexico border, I'm going to prison. As much as I like seeing Cuban players succeed in MLB, I don't see how it should be any different for Gus Dominguez, or why he should have his own set of rules to live by.

[Cubano100%]

Come on Agente! For someone that follows the cuban situation as well as you, it is not time to be naive.


Anybody that follow cuban politics knows that the US government has closed their eyes over the years about cubans coming by boat, etc. Not only the ones coming from Cuba, but also cubanamericans bringing cubans here. Have you forgotten about the cuban pilot Lorenzo? He went to Cuba from Miami in small plane to pick up his family and landed in an highway in Cuba. Then, he came back and was welcomed like a hero. Why? He ridiculized the cuban army. Why the USA government did not pursue any charges?

http://www.amazon.com/Wings-Morning-Flights-Orestes-Lorenzo/dp/0312100086

Look. The USA government knows who Posada Carriles is. Where is he? In the streets. Why? The USA government does not want Posada running his mouth in a USA court incriminating the CIA dirty crap over the years and so on.

The Dominguez's case was an hipocresy from the current USA government. You tell me who is worst. Posada or Dominguez.

As I wrote, Dominguez would had been invited to the White House 20 years ago for helping cuban players escape tyranny.

I am ending this here.

[Agente Libre]

... Anybody that follow cuban politics knows that the US government has closed their eyes over the years about cubans coming by boat, etc. ...

Just because the U.S. failed to enforce its laws for a few years doesn't render those laws null and void.

The Dominguez's case was an hipocresy from the current USA government. You tell me who is worst. Posada or Dominguez.

As I wrote, Dominguez would had been invited to the White House 20 years ago for helping cuban players escape tyranny.

The U.S. government locked up Posada for *years* and only released him when a federal judge forced the U.S. to release him because Posada was deemed to be non-deportable.

Anyway, Gus Dominguez has denied having *anything* to do with smuggling players to the U.S., so how can he be a "hero"? If he said, "Yes, I smuggled them, and I was proud to give those young men freedom, and I'll accept any punishment that is given to me for doing so," then *that* might make him a hero, but how can he be a hero for something he still claims he didn't do? That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

[Paula59]

Last nigth Germany played USA in Regensburg/Germany (Site of next years WC)

Germany lost 03:09 against the US Team that had beaten Cuba twice at the Haarlem Baseball Week.

Starter for Germany was once again the Number 1 Starter Cuban born Enorbel Maquez

Recap here
http://web.usabaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080715&content_id=34409&vkey=recap_usab

Play by Play here
http://www.mister-baseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/pbp-15-germany.pdf

[J.P]

Just because the U.S. failed to enforce its laws for a few years doesn't render those laws null and void.



The U.S. government locked up Posada for *years* and only released him when a federal judge forced the U.S. to release him because Posada was deemed to be non-deportable.

Anyway, Gus Dominguez has denied having *anything* to do with smuggling players to the U.S., so how can he be a "hero"? If he said, "Yes, I smuggled them, and I was proud to give those young men freedom, and I'll accept any punishment that is given to me for doing so," then *that* might make him a hero, but how can he be a hero for something he still claims he didn't do? That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

Agente, did you read the article? I mean, I hadnt thought about it like that, and I'm not naive enough to think GuS Dominguez didnt "help" a player or two get out, but it really didnt make much sense to "invest" $225,000 on the likes of Yoankis Turino, Osmany Masso, Allen Guevara, Bueno and Castillo; and according to the author, Andy Morales seems to be a little (or maybe a lot) involved too.

[jalbright]

This dialogue is getting a little crazy, and a lot off-track, and I don't want to delve too deeply into political discussions we all know Mr. Albright frowns upon.

Mr. Albright frowns upon going this far into the political because site rules indicate this is a "baseball-only" forum. I want to remind everyone of that, and be aware that future posts in this vein will be edited/deleted, and it is possible that there will be consequences for those who break that rule in this thread from this point forward. I trust this will be a word to the wise. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

[J.P]

Mr. Albright, I respect your position, but at the same time I ask you to ackowledge the fact that for Cubans it is extremely hard to separate baseball from politics, due to the fact that baseball has been used as a political tool by our government for the past 50 years. Futhermore, you cant even find an article on Cuban Baseball where politics is not mentioned, if renowned journalists who perhaps spend a week in Habana cannot make the "separation", how can we who have lived through it our entire lives?

PS: I'm not asking you to allow full political discussions, but to at least show some flexibility.

Thank you.

[jalbright]

Mr. Albright, I respect your position, but at the same time I ask you to ackowledge the fact that for Cubans it is extremely hard to separate baseball from politics, due to the fact that baseball has been used as a political tool by our government for the past 50 years. Futhermore, you cant even find an article on Cuban Baseball where politics is not mentioned, if renowned journalists who perhaps spend a week in Habana cannot make the "separation", how can we who have lived through it our entire lives?

PS: I'm not asking you to allow full political discussions, but to at least show some flexibility.

Thank you.

With all due respect, JP, I have, for the reasons you've indicated. I let this discussion go as far as it has. That said, this particular discussion has gone far too far away from baseball to be allowed to go any further. This discussion deserves no more flexibility, nor will it get it.

[cuban_aficionado]

How do we explain the lack of offense showed by team Cuba in the Harleem tournament?

Why the baseball authorities in Cuba are chosing the worse players to represent the island?

Why Cuban players did not ask for political asylum in Europe???

Why none stayed behind?

Cuba has no excuse for losing two games to a college team based of AA ball players....:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[J.P]

With all due respect, JP, I have, for the reasons you've indicated. I let this discussion go as far as it has. That said, this particular discussion has gone far too far away from baseball to be allowed to go any further. This discussion deserves no more flexibility, nor will it get it.

Ok, I understand, I thought you meant in the thread overall. Thanks for the clarification.

[Agente Libre]

Agente, did you read the article? I mean, I hadnt thought about it like that, and I'm not naive enough to think GuS Dominguez didnt "help" a player or two get out, but it really didnt make much sense to "invest" $225,000 on the likes of Yoankis Turino, Osmany Masso, Allen Guevara, Bueno and Castillo; and according to the author, Andy Morales seems to be a little (or maybe a lot) involved too.

Yes, I read it. I know the author. (The story actually came out six weeks ago; I'm surprised it took so long for my Cuban amigos to start talking about it. The story was debated at length at other baseball sites back in June.)

Just so I'm clear, my summary of the whole Gus Dominguez issue is as follows: I believe Gus, overall, has done a lot of good for Cuban defectors, but I believe he got reckless and ended up getting caught by changing times -- that is, the crackdown on illegal immigration in general and the crackdown on Miami smugglers in particular.

As for Andy Morales, Gus Dominguez went on HBO's "Real Sports" back in 2000 and basically admitted he paid to have Morales smuggled to Florida. (I believe the clip is still on the Internet somewhere.) As 'Cubano100%' said above, it went from okay to smuggle people to not okay, and unfortunately for Gus, he got caught by the changing times.

As for the $225,000, why would Gus mortgage his house to pay $225,000 for players he didn't want smuggled to the U.S.? That's really the part of the story that doesn't make sense. (If I recall, Francisley Bueno and/or Osbeck Castillo were All-Stars in 2004, and Gus probably thought he could make some money.)

How do we explain the lack of offense showed by team Cuba in the Harleem tournament?

Why the baseball authorities in Cuba are chosing the worse players to represent the island?

Well, this is a better topic for the other threads, but at least it changed the subject. :)

Cuba's slump in Holland could be any or all of three things: Over-training/fatigue from months of pre-Holland training; a typical baseball slump at the wrong time; a failure by the Cuban baseball people to actually send Cuba's best players.

[Cubano100%]

Just because the U.S. failed to enforce its laws for a few years doesn't render those laws null and void.



The U.S. government locked up Posada for *years* and only released him when a federal judge forced the U.S. to release him because Posada was deemed to be non-deportable.

Anyway, Gus Dominguez has denied having *anything* to do with smuggling players to the U.S., so how can he be a "hero"? If he said, "Yes, I smuggled them, and I was proud to give those young men freedom, and I'll accept any punishment that is given to me for doing so," then *that* might make him a hero, but how can he be a hero for something he still claims he didn't do? That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

Posada was not jailed for years. Posada was jailed for an inmmigration charge. Give me a break! He was jailed for entering the USA illegally and not for other things he may have done. That was just a face saving charge for the USA government. The USA government had to charge him with something minor because the USA government was not looking to good and they were claiming the terrorist card around the world. Castro and Chavez were mocking the USA government about this in every international forum.

There are many immingrants that are jailed in the USA and are not deported. Posada is not in jail because he knows to much about the CIA, he is a Vietnam veteran and a cold war fighter for the USA. Dominguez is non of that.

What would you do if you were in Dominguez's shoes?


The word hero is relative to you, me and every person. For you George Washington may be a hero, but for others George Washington may mean slavery and oppression. For me, Dominguez is a hero.

[Cubano100%]

With all due respect, JP, I have, for the reasons you've indicated. I let this discussion go as far as it has. That said, this particular discussion has gone far too far away from baseball to be allowed to go any further. This discussion deserves no more flexibility, nor will it get it.

Why?

We are discussing a baseball agent and his story compare to other cases involving others cubanamericans and the USA policies toward us. Nobody has been misrespected here.

[Cubano100%]

SS Juan Carlos Moreno (Isla de la Juventud) is trainning in the D.R. He is with young 19 years old Félix Pérez. They are represented by Manuel Azcona. They are trainning in the academy ex professional player Denio González.

http://www.listindiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=65294

[Cubano100%]

How do we explain the lack of offense showed by team Cuba in the Harleem tournament?

Why the baseball authorities in Cuba are chosing the worse players to represent the island?

Why Cuban players did not ask for political asylum in Europe???

Why none stayed behind?

Cuba has no excuse for losing two games to a college team based of AA ball players....:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


Many college base team have beaten Cuba in the past.

[Cubano100%]

Last nigth Germany played USA in Regensburg/Germany (Site of next years WC)

Germany lost 03:09 against the US Team that had beaten Cuba twice at the Haarlem Baseball Week.

Starter for Germany was once again the Number 1 Starter Cuban born Enorbel Maquez

Recap here
http://web.usabaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080715&content_id=34409&vkey=recap_usab

Play by Play here
http://www.mister-baseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/pbp-15-germany.pdf

Thank you, Paula. Germany has been improving a lot.

[J.P]

Yes, I read it. I know the author. (The story actually came out six weeks ago; I'm surprised it took so long for my Cuban amigos to start talking about it. The story was debated at length at other baseball sites back in June.)

Just so I'm clear, my summary of the whole Gus Dominguez issue is as follows: I believe Gus, overall, has done a lot of good for Cuban defectors, but I believe he got reckless and ended up getting caught by changing times -- that is, the crackdown on illegal immigration in general and the crackdown on Miami smugglers in particular.

As for Andy Morales, Gus Dominguez went on HBO's "Real Sports" back in 2000 and basically admitted he paid to have Morales smuggled to Florida. (I believe the clip is still on the Internet somewhere.) As 'Cubano100%' said above, it went from okay to smuggle people to not okay, and unfortunately for Gus, he got caught by the changing times.

As for the $225,000, why would Gus mortgage his house to pay $225,000 for players he didn't want smuggled to the U.S.? That's really the part of the story that doesn't make sense. (If I recall, Francisley Bueno and/or Osbeck Castillo were All-Stars in 2004, and Gus probably thought he could make some money.)



Well, this is a better topic for the other threads, but at least it changed the subject. :)

Cuba's slump in Holland could be any or all of three things: Over-training/fatigue from months of pre-Holland training; a typical baseball slump at the wrong time; a failure by the Cuban baseball people to actually send Cuba's best players.

Yeah, you are right, but I meant that Morales' involvement might had been bigger that just being smuggled out himself; the author says that the 5 were taken to Morales' house, together with a young kid who turned out to be Morales' son, and he also says that Morales was friends with the smuggler, Morales was with him when he was busted for drug trafficking in Chicago, they were on their way to see Jose Contreras pitch.

[J.P]

Cubano, I dont consider Gus Dominguez to be a hero, why? Because he was doing it for his own profit, not out of the goodness of his heart; that being said, I dont believe he should be serving 5 year sentence either.

[J.P]

SS Juan Carlos Moreno (Isla de la Juventud) is trainning in the D.R. He is with young 19 years old Félix Pérez. They are represented by Manuel Azcona. They are trainning in the academy ex professional player Denio González.

http://www.listindiario.com.do/app/article.aspx?id=65294

Wow, this guy is really overselling Moreno, and what else can anybofy tell me about Felix Perez?

[jalbright]

Why?

We are discussing a baseball agent and his story compare to other cases involving others cubanamericans and the USA policies toward us. Nobody has been misrespected here.

C'mon Cubano, it's gone way beyond a baseball discussion and into politics. I have a certain amount of patience for political discussion with respect to Cuban baseball, but at this point in this discussion of the agent and so forth, it's been exceeded.

[jalbright]

C'mon Cubano, it's gone way beyond a baseball discussion and into politics. I have a certain amount of patience for political discussion with respect to Cuban baseball, but at this point in this discussion of the agent and so forth, it's been exceeded.

For instance, please look at this post and tell me what percentage is baseball and what percentage is politics:

Posada was not jailed for years. Posada was jailed for an inmmigration charge. Give me a break! He was jailed for entering the USA illegally and not for other things he may have done. That was just a face saving charge for the USA government. The USA government had to charge him with something minor because the USA government was not looking to good and they were claiming the terrorist card around the world. Castro and Chavez were mocking the USA government about this in every international forum.

There are many immingrants that are jailed in the USA and are not deported. Posada is not in jail because he knows to much about the CIA, he is a Vietnam veteran and a cold war fighter for the USA. Dominguez is non of that.

What would you do if you were in Dominguez's shoes?


The word hero is relative to you, me and every person. For you George Washington may be a hero, but for others George Washington may mean slavery and oppression. For me, Dominguez is a hero.

If there's 10% baseball in that, you're pushing it. Don't do it again on this agent discussion, or I will take action.

[Cubano100%]

OK, Agente see you in the other forum. We can have the discussion there. We are comparing his case to other cases to see the disparity. If that is not accpetable in here, then see you in the other forum.

[Agente Libre]

Yeah, you are right, but I meant that Morales' involvement might had been bigger that just being smuggled out himself; the author says that the 5 were taken to Morales' house, together with a young kid who turned out to be Morales' son, and he also says that Morales was friends with the smuggler, Morales was with him when he was busted for drug trafficking in Chicago, they were on their way to see Jose Contreras pitch.

Absolutely. It seems there's a *lot* more to the story than has been reported, but I guess Morales (and Yuniesky Betancourt) aren't talking or cooperating.

Cubano, I dont consider Gus Dominguez to be a hero, why? Because he was doing it for his own profit, not out of the goodness of his heart; that being said, I dont believe he should be serving 5 year sentence either.

Agreed. It seems clear Dominguez is guilty of the specific charges against him, but it's also somewhat unfair he's in prison when other people -- including several other people from the same case -- didn't even get arrested, let alone sent to prison.

Wow, this guy is really overselling Moreno, and what else can anybofy tell me about Felix Perez?

I haven't read the article yet, but isn't Moreno in his 30s? And I'll second the request for Felix Perez info. I had never heard of the guy.

OK, Agente see you in the other forum. We can have the discussion there. We are comparing his case to other cases to see the disparity. If that is not accpetable in here, then see you in the other forum.

Come on, don't be like that. You and I are probably the only ones here who even care to debate the non-baseball stuff, and we can do that by email. :)

[Paula59]

Cuban born Pitcher Enorbel Maquez pitching for Germany against USA


http://www.eisenhuth-photographie.de/watermark.php?i=5904

[emanuelsaavedra]

okay, guys, please lets get away from the political. I know that its hard to talk cuba anything and not politics. But please remember that we are talking about these guys like if they were living in a cage. Let me remind you that for the standard of living in cuba, these guys are millionaires in cuba. Just go see Linares' house compared with the rest of the houses in pinar del rio. If it wasnt for baseball all those guys would be having a really hard time, at least this way they get to go out of the country and make some money. They never had their house raided by the police like the real political refugees do. So please lets get away from the political, and not picture them as martyrs. Someone who plays a game for a living is not a martyr. You guys know more about cuban baseball than most people ive met and this is the only way that i can keep up with cuban baseball. Please dont ruin it for everyone. Please stay and lets talk about baseball.

[J.P]

Theres a rumor going around that Elier Sanchez and Yuliesky Gonzalez have defected.

[Agente Libre]

Defected in South Korea? That seems kind of crazy, for all kinds of reasons.

Why would these two go all the way to Korea to defect, when they could have defected in Holland or taken a boat to the U.S. or Mexico?

Isn't it more likely that these two guys got hurt, or got cut, and sent back to Cuba? Equipo Cuba was still carrying about six to eight extra guys when they left Holland, but only 24 can play in the Olympics.

[J.P]

Well, Elier Sanchez was one of the last 5 cuts from Team Cuba, the consensus seems to be that he was a strong candidate to make the team, so if he didnt in fact defect, the cuban federation might at least be suspicious of a future defection. Yuliesky Gonzalez was not cut from the team, so his defection turned out to be just a rumor.

[Agente Libre]

Well, Elier Sanchez was one of the last 5 cuts from Team Cuba, the consensus seems to be that he was a strong candidate to make the team, so if he didnt in fact defect, the cuban federation might at least be suspicious of a future defection. Yuliesky Gonzalez was not cut from the team, so his defection turned out to be just a rumor.

I could understand leaving Sanchez at home for fear of defection, but I doubt he was cut from the Olympics because of that fear. It's highly doubtful that a Cuban player (or, for that matter, any athlete from any country) would try to defect in communist China.

More likely, Sanchez isn't in top shape after a year of minor injuries (dating back to last summer's tournaments) and/or Cuba was happy with the other lefties.

[J.P]

According to Jayson Stark:

• Speaking of the Angels, they're still kicking tires on available relief pitchers. But one baseball man who spoke with them believes "they're not a major player on anything right now."

The Braves continue to call them about Mark Teixeira. But the Angels have Casey Kotchman off their board, and the Braves aren't interested in Kendry Morales.

[J.P]

SP Noel Arguelles and SS Jose Iglesias have defected from the junior team in Canada.

[J.P]

Cuban baseball players defect on trip to Edmonton

Ryan Cormier
Canwest News Service


Tuesday, July 29, 2008


EDMONTON - Two Cuban players participating in the World Junior Triple A Baseball Championship in Edmonton appear to have defected, the team confirmed Tuesday.

Two of the team's star players - pitcher Noel Arguelles and infielder Jose Iglesias - have been missing since Sunday.

Both players showed up at a team meal late Sunday afternoon at the University of Alberta campus, where they were staying.

When the players boarded a bus for their game against Canada that evening, there were two empty seats.

No one knows where Arguelles and Iglesias went, but tournament chairman Ron Hayter said everyone around the tournament has a pretty good idea.

"The common theory is that there are major league teams wanting these players," said Hayter, who is also a city councillor.

"These kind of things don't happen on the spur of the moment. These things are organized pretty well. I imagine they got out of the university fairly quick and were gone.

"Those two will end up on some team, no doubt."

Hayter said that Cuban officials were disappointed they had lost two skilled players, but didn't seem angry.

"They had a brave face. They emphasized that they beat Canada after the players left."

Cuba also beat Chinese Taipei on Tuesday afternoon 13-3.

The defection of the pair didn't surprise too many people. Two members of the Cuban national junior team defected in 2000, the last time Edmonton hosted the tournament.

One of those players is now the starting shortstop for the Seattle Mariners.

"It's not the first time this has happened and won't be the last," Hayter said.


Bruce McCloud, the Edmonton representative of the Canadian-Cuban Friendship Association, wasn't surprised either.

He said the players could have left Cuba anytime they wanted, but economic concerns such as the price of flights, travel documents and passports put such a move out of reach for many in Cuba.

"It makes it difficult to just get up and travel."

The same economic concerns may have motivated the players to leave.

"Baseball in Cuba is as hockey is to Canada, but players don't have a hope of making the same money down there," he said.

"That sort of money would run a town in Cuba. Players are not well paid there."

The chances of any retribution against the players is slim, McCloud said.

"Although it's a blow to their sports program, if these people left of their own free will, I can't see anyone doing too much about it."

Scouts from at least 17 Major League Baseball teams are at the tournament, which runs until Aug. 3.

The scouts sit behind home plate at games where they time pitches, shoot video and keep track of statistics.

Rumours began to swirl on Sunday night that a number of Cuban players had left.

The ages of the two players weren't released, but most in the tournament are 17 or 18 years old.


Both players only played one game in the tournament before they left.

Arguelles started in Cuba's first game of the tournament and pitched 6 2/3 innings in a 5-4 loss to Puerto Rico on Friday.

Iglesias was three-for-five at the plate in that game.

"Cuba doesn't like losing its players to major league teams and keeps a close watch on the roster," the official tournament program reads.

Most teams show up with 18 players and an additional five personnel. Cuba requested to bring more personnel, who were believed to be along to have more eyes on the players.

Twelve countries have a team at the World Junior Triple A Baseball Championship.

Edmonton Journal

[J.P]

And another one leaves in Edmonton, RHP Raydel Sanchez Licea, nephew of Ciro Silvino Licea...........btw, the Braves have called up Francisley Bueno.

[cuban_aficionado]

And another one leaves in Edmonton, RHP Raydel Sanchez Licea, nephew of Ciro Silvino Licea...........btw, the Braves have called up Francisley Bueno.

Keep them coming.... by the by Pirates`s Yoslan Herrera is pitching tomorrow against Dan Harren; Darren has an ERA of 2.62. Herrera need to show off his stuff tomorrow to win!!!!!

[CameronCrazies]

He has not made an appearence in three games in San Francisco, but with four games in Arizona left on the road trip he should get a shot. The desert is not the best place for a pitcher like Bueno seeing that his fastball is pretty straight. We'll see. !beuna suerte Cubano!

Now if they would call up Barbaro Canizares for power off the bench then I would be happy. Surprisingly though the Braves are getting great play from the bench this year. Ruben Gotay is the weak link, but he can play middle infield.

[Paula59]

http://eastwindupchronicle.com/wha-korea-dismantles-cuba-15-3/


what happened?did they all defect?

[pepe]

Hey guys, here is some news about someone we had no news about in a while:

Hassan Pena brilliant in first win as P-Nat
By Chris Fisher / Potomac Nationals


WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. - If there is one thing the Potomac Nationals do not like, it is losing streaks. The P-Nats avoided dropping their fifth straight game Saturday night at Ernie Shore Field crushing Winston-Salem 11-2 for just their second victory on the road trip.
As good as the Nationals offense looked, Hassan Pena (1-1) was better on the mound. The Cuban was spectacular pitching a career-high seven innings while shutting out the Hogs on two hits. No Warthog base runner reached past second base as Pena just continued to record outs earning his first win.

The 23-year-old's performance is even more impressive considering Winston-Salem had scored 13 runs in the first two games of the series.
The seemingly dormant Nationals offense finally erupted with an abundance of runs. The team was hitting a lowly .198 during the losing streak but found proper form in the top of the third inning. Jhonatan Solano and Boomer Whiting began the frame with back-to-back singles. Then, Michael Martinez laid down a sacrifice bunt but Michael Dubee's throw to first went wide allowing Solano to score.

The error opened the flood gates for the Nationals as Dan Lyons, Francisco Plasencia, and Andrew Lefave each provided RBI hits in the inning. All four runs were scored before an out was ever recorded, and Potomac sported a 4-0 lead.

Two more runs came across in the fourth inning for Potomac thanks to an RBI double from Whiting, and another run-scoring hit from Martinez making it 6-0. Dubee's night was cut short after lasting just four innings while giving up six runs on nine hits in the loss.

The comfortable lead did not dissuade the Nationals from piling on the score. The fifth resembled the previous two innings with three more runs. A leadoff walk to Lefave set the table and Darryl Lawhorn singled with one out. Solano, Whiting, and Martinez again were the center of action stringing together RBI base hits off of Steve Spurgeon putting the game away 11-0. Whiting had his first four-hit game since joining the P-Nats accompanied by two RBI while Martinez was 3-5, also with two RBI.

Relievers Jack Spradlin and Alex Morales each tossed an inning of relief. John Shelby broke up the shutout bid with a solo home run in the bottom of the ninth off Morales.

The Nationals had scored 11 runs over their previous four games and matched that total tonight. The seven-game road trip concludes tomorrow evening at Ernie Shore Field with Jeff Mandel (4-4, 4.60) starting opposite righty Anthony Carter (4-3, 5.66). First pitch is scheduled for 5:00 p.m.

[Dalkowski110]

To add to this, Hassan Pena will be getting his first baseball card in a few days. 2008 Bowman Chrome Prospects (release date August 13, 2008), although the card numbers haven't been released yet. Johan Limonta will also have his first card in the same set.

[J.P]

I think that with Escobar playing SS and Nuñez and Bueno coming off the pen, yesterday was the first time since Hanzel Izquierdo, Michael Tejera, and Nuñez appeared in one game for the Marlins, that three Cubans appear in one game for the same team. I dont remember when was the last time 4 Cubans (Escobar, Peña, Nuñez, Bueno) played for one team in the same season......and maybe the 5th is on the way....

[Dalkowski110]

Well, that means Francisley Bueno will have himself a rookie card this year. I'm a huge card collector and care about such things. :) In fact, I have a rather extensive collection...if you guys want free images of Cuban ballplayers, I'll be more than happy to let you use my scanned card collection. Let me know!

[emanuelsaavedra]

i was so caught up in the olympics that i did not pay any attention to Contreras' injury. WOW this is really bad news, contreras is in his late thirties and a raptured achilles tendon is more than likely going to finish it out for him. That is just unbelievable. I have to say i think it would be sad if he goes out like that. I mean i went to the Capitan San Luis to watch him and Linares, its sad to think that it may be over. Its a shame that he never was able to find his groove in the majors. The worst part is that we all know how good he couldve been. I have never seen a pitcher been more dominant than him during 05/06. That was a lot of wasted talent. Anyways i still consider myslef lucky to have seen whom in my opinion was one of the most dominant pitchers in cuban history at his best

[emanuelsaavedra]

on another note. What the hell was Pacheco doing in the Olympics? There was one thing that at least really jumped to my eyes during the olympics and that was the fact that cuba looked like they had no power, they all looked like line hitters. Then he has guys like Peraza in the bench who never plays in any of the important games. Nothing against Pestano, he is a great defensive guy. But the team was hurting for power, and Pestano cannot help with that. I understand that you need a good game manager and Pereza cant provide that. But he can hit homeruns. For crying out loud. I was surprised by how mediocre the team and management performed. They were trying to do just enough to beat the other teams, and that strategy will bit you every time. Man, do i miss that swagger and hustle of the 92 and 96 teams.

[Mischa]

Um, Peraza wasn't even on Cuba's Olympic roster, so bemoaning his "sitting on the bench" in the Olympics is silly. Pestano actually slugged .533 and drove in 8 runs in 8 games in the 2008 Olympics - to say he did poorly is equally silly. I personally would have picked Peraza, but in retrospect Pestano was a good choice. As for Cuba being a bunch of weak hitters, look at the stats - in addition to Pestano, Alexei Bell, Alfredo Despaigne and Frederich Cepeda all smacked the ball. Michel Enriquez did pretty well too. The only hitters to struggle significantly were Yulieski Gourriel, Eduardo Paret and Giorvis Duvergel; Gourriel was a shoe-in for this team and merely had an off-week. Paret was possibly controversial given his age but he was still productive last year. Duvergel has been very good in international competitions and no one was clearly a better option IMO.

[emanuelsaavedra]

i am sorry, I feel like an idiot, i could have sworn that Peraza was on the team. What I mean is that there were no natural sluggers on the team. Granted, Bell is a good hitter, but there are no Kindelan like players on this team, that has to be something that i have seen in cuban baseball. Something that i saw was we beat up teams like China and Netherlands. But the teams with halfway decent pitching we had a very hard time with. I saw some of the most important games. You have to give me that our hitters looked like they were in a hurry, swinging at bad pitches. They looked bad, i mean i cant really explain it. This team did not have the swagger of past teams. Cuba was trying to do just enough to win. I mean, do you see what i am trying to say?

[Mischa]

i am sorry, I feel like an idiot, i could have sworn that Peraza was on the team. What I mean is that there were no natural sluggers on the team. Granted, Bell is a good hitter, but there are no Kindelan like players on this team, that has to be something that i have seen in cuban baseball. Something that i saw was we beat up teams like China and Netherlands. But the teams with halfway decent pitching we had a very hard time with. I saw some of the most important games. You have to give me that our hitters looked like they were in a hurry, swinging at bad pitches. They looked bad, i mean i cant really explain it. This team did not have the swagger of past teams. Cuba was trying to do just enough to win. I mean, do you see what i am trying to say?

Bell set the Cuban Serie Nacional home run record, so I would classify him as a slugger. Gourriel has led the league in homers and Cepeda and Despaigne were two of the top power threats in Beijing. Catcher and First Base are the only positions where they could have made a significant power upgrade.

[Cuba_fan]

hola cubano100%

que tal?

Just wanted to let you know that i visted Beijing during the games and it was great!! I saw a lot of games of Cuba and also the final. But as you al know, korea won :banghead:

how are you all doing?

[Cuba_fan]

some more pics

[Cuba_fan]

holland against cuba

[emanuelsaavedra]

yes, we had guys who had the capacity to be power threats. What i mean was that the cuban team is lacking a guy like Kindelan. Bell i think is as close as we can get to it. But he is still in the works. Gourriel is a good ballplayer who also happens to have pop, not a primarily power hitter. I guess what i mean is that when Kindelan (or Linares) came to bat, everyone was expecting him to hit a homerun. There is not a player like that in cuba now. The only thing that worries me is the lack of a true home run threat that we have in cuba with the WBC coming soon. Soemthing that i did not understand is how we dont seem to care about some of the legit power threats that we have available like Peraza. Granted i know that Pestano had a good tourney and that hes a great defender, but the guy is in his mid 30s. I can only recall seeing Peraza in the Pan American games with the main team and thats it (i may be wrong though). I think that if he is groomed right, he could be the legit 4th bat of the team with gourriel and bell as 2nd and 3rd. What do you guys think?

[Mischa]

I can only recall seeing Peraza in the Pan American games with the main team and thats it (i may be wrong though). ?

Peraza was with the team in the 2007 World Cup. See http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Yosvany_Peraza

[Agente Libre]

While I don't believe Cuba took its absolute best players to the Olympics this year, I also don't believe Cuba is suffering from a power outage. Remember, guys like Kindelan and Linares were veteran players swinging aluminum bats against mostly amateur competition. Those days are gone, and not returning.

(Anyway, this thread is for Cuban baseball defectors, and has gone way off-topic. This dialogue, should it continue, should be moved to the 2008 Olympics thread, or to a new thread.)

[emanuelsaavedra]

sorry about that guys, I might check out the other blog and talk about it in there. By the way, does anyone have any news on Dayan Viciedo?

[Dalkowski110]

Michel Hernandez got called up with Tampa Bay.

[J.P]

As first reported by Agente Libre on the spanish forum, the Yankees have called up Juan Miranda :dance

[emanuelsaavedra]

hey guys, what is going on with dayan viciedo? I havent heard anyhting about him, i understand that they may be trying to wait untill the free agent period to get more cash, but why are there no talks about him at all? He should be one of the big fishes in the free agent market this year, i think. So if anyone has anything on him let me know

[Agente Libre]

hey guys, what is going on with dayan viciedo? I havent heard anyhting about him,

I haven't heard anything at all since the rumor in early July that Viciedo left for the D.R. so he could sign as a free agent. I'm not even sure if that rumor is true, since it seems like someone in the D.R. would have written a story about him by now.

i understand that they may be trying to wait untill the free agent period to get more cash, but why are there no talks about him at all? He should be one of the big fishes in the free agent market this year, i think. So if anyone has anything on him let me know

This would be a very, very bad strategy if it's true. Viciedo left Cuba in late May; why sit around waiting for 5-6 months? It would also be a bad strategy because there's no way MLB teams will look at Viciedo as a "major league free agent" who will go straight to the majors in 2009, like all the other major league free agents who will sign in November/December/January.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I dont think that Viciedo would make the kind of money that Torii Hunter made last year, that would be stupid, but i do think that he could get the money of a high first round draft pick (which is not bad). I mean, he is as sure a thing as any first rounder in the majors, dont you think?

[Agente Libre]

I dont think that Viciedo would make the kind of money that Torii Hunter made last year, that would be stupid, but i do think that he could get the money of a high first round draft pick (which is not bad). I mean, he is as sure a thing as any first rounder in the majors, dont you think?

Absolutely. I really like Viciedo (especially as an offensive player), but I see him -- and I suspect most, if not all, MLB teams see him -- as a prospect rather than as a player who will step right into a major league lineup in April 2009.

I still can't believe there's been no news on him for over 3 months. I wonder if there are problems behind the scenes. Otherwise, it's very, very strange for a high-profile defector to avoid the media for months at a time. (I haven't seen Viciedo's name in a single news article since June -- over 3 months ago.)

[emanuelsaavedra]

do you guys think that Miranda will have a shot at playing for the yankees next year? I mean, i think that Giambi is done in NY and they will be on the hunt for CC Sabathia, and a set up man, which would leave them short of the money for texeira. I think that this situation would make miranda the runner up to the position.

Besides, how good of a chance do you guys think that the angels have to resign texeira? If i were them i would stick to kendry. I know some people related to the angels and they seem concerned with the stats that kendry puts up, but no one can bat 300 when they are getting 2-3 at bats a week. I was pleased to see how kendry played when put in clutch situations. Besides, if the angels do sign texeira, i would be out of there asap if i was kendry. What do you all think?

[Agente Libre]

The Yankees are never short of money, and they'll be swimming in money this off-season because something like $90 million in contracts just expired (guys like Giambi, Mussina, Pavano, Pettitte, etc.).

The Yankees do seem to like Miranda but I doubt they would pencil him in as their projected starting first baseman for 2009. More likely, Miranda will be the guy if all other options fall through (Teixeira and Giambi sign elsewhere, etc.), and/or if their 2009 first baseman gets hurt. This seems especially true for 2009, with the Yankees opening a new stadium and under a lot of pressure to get back into the playoffs after missing them this year.

As for Kendry and the Angels, the situation is what it is. No one forced Kendry to sign with the Angels, and he's not really free to leave since his contract has, I believe, another 1-2 more years before it expires. (And even then, he still won't be a free agent because he hasn't been in the majors long enough.) In any event, I can't imagine the Angels will just let Teixeira -- one of the best first baseman in baseball -- walk away so Kendry can have the job, but if Teixeira does leave, then I imagine Kendry would be penciled in for 2009.

[emanuelsaavedra]

the only thing that i think has to be taken into account is that this year, the teams i think wont spend as much money into free agents. With the economy the way it is, i am afraid that teams are going to have a hard time filling up the stands, at least at the current price, so even teams like the mighty yankees mught hold back on spending. Still i would find it very difficult to believe that Miranda would be a starter, i was asking more as making the team. In regards to Kendry, Texeira has said that he wants to go back to the NE, so Yankees and Orioles would be i think the biggest players. What i am saying is that kendry is running out of chances, hes still 25 or 26 but at the current time he only has about 10 years of baseball left in him if that much.

[qbabaseball2299]

Can somebody please tell me whats the situation with Yunel Escobar? I didnt understand why he wasnt playing at the end of the season. I know with the Braves being out of it and all, developing players get some playing time, but Escobar is not a veteran, on the contrary, he needs as much playing time as he can get i think, unless he was still being bothered by some injury altough there was no news about it on his bio page at mlb.com

On the other hand, I predict the NYY signing Manny Ramirez, Matsui will either be moved or full time DH/1B so i think Miranda will see some playing time since Matsui is not likely to go a full season.

[J.P]

I'm pretty sure Escobar was somehow bothered by one or more of the injuries he sustained during the course of the regular season, thats why he didnt play as much towards the end.

[qbabaseball2299]

So how are we looking for the upcoming WBC? From what i saw at the Olympics, I'd like to see a good LH hitter added to the lineup or Mayeta to step it up as well as a better LHP to start, im sorry but Adiel Palma doesnt do it for me, dont they have this kid, last name Chapman that has a pretty live FB? I wonder why they didnt bring him to Beijing.

[Dalkowski110]

More news on Dayan Viciedo...

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1267725,CST-SPT-sox08.article

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I don't understand why Cuban defectors get to be free agents and not be subject to the amateur draft? And how old is he really? He's 19 and the size of an NFL linebacker? :rolleyes:

[Agente Libre]

I don't understand why Cuban defectors get to be free agents and not be subject to the amateur draft? And how old is he really? He's 19 and the size of an NFL linebacker? :rolleyes:

Everything to do with Cuban defectors and MLB is very strange. Sometimes Cubans are free agents and sometimes they're not, and not even MLB seems able to explain the difference between Player #1's status and Player #2's.

Baseball's Rule 4 says that any player who is a resident of the U.S. for even one day must go into the next draft before signing a contract, yet Viciedo, like Jose Contreras before him, was allowed to become a free agent after holding a press conference to announce he was in the U.S.

Strange business, baseball.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Everything to do with Cuban defectors and MLB is very strange. Sometimes Cubans are free agents and sometimes they're not, and not even MLB seems able to explain the difference between Player #1's status and Player #2's.

Baseball's Rule 4 says that any player who is a resident of the U.S. for even one day must go into the next draft before signing a contract, yet Viciedo, like Jose Contreras before him, was allowed to become a free agent after holding a press conference to announce he was in the U.S.

Strange business, baseball.

Agent Libre, you are quite correct, MLB is a strange business.

On another note is it common for Cuban ballplayers to change their birthdates? Is so why is it done? I can understand a Dominican or Venezulean ballplayer doing this because they want to get signed by a major league team and being younger gives them an advantage. But what advantage does a Cuban ballplayer have in "getting younger" since for most of them playing in the major leagues is not an option? :shrug: According to some reports Viciedo was on the Cuban National Team at age 14. I find it hard to imagine any 14 year old Cuban can be good enough skill wise and physically mature enough to play on the Cuban National Team with experienced grown men.

[Agente Libre]

It's getting harder for them to do since a lot of Cuban baseball info. is now online, but Cuban defectors have often made themselves younger (on paper) to make themselves more attractive to MLB teams. Obviously, an 18-year-old is more attractive than a 22-year-old, and a 22-year-old is more attractive than a 26-year-old, etc., etc.

As for Viciedo, that looks like some shoddy reporting. Viciedo was never on Cuba's main national team, let alone at age 14. Rather, he played on several of Cuba's age-specific junior teams (e.g., the 16-and-under national team, the 18-and-under national team, etc.).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

It's getting harder for them to do since a lot of Cuban baseball info. is now online, but Cuban defectors have often made themselves younger (on paper) to make themselves more attractive to MLB teams. Obviously, an 18-year-old is more attractive than a 22-year-old, and a 22-year-old is more attractive than a 26-year-old, etc., etc.
Oh I see, the Cuban defectors do it after leaving Cuba. That's clears things up.


As for Viciedo, that looks like some shoddy reporting. Viciedo was never on Cuba's main national team, let alone at age 14. Rather, he played on several of Cuba's age-specific junior teams (e.g., the 16-and-under national team, the 18-and-under national team, etc.).

That makes more sense. A 14 year old on the main Cuban National Team just didn't register with me.

[Paula59]

Some news about Cuban born German Ace Enorbel Marquez

http://baseball-akademie.de/bocachic...08/GKaiuEn.JPG

Marquez played his 2nd game for Licey and will be coming in for more games sonn according to the Pitching Coach Perez of Licey.

http://baseball-akademie.de/bocachic...EnorbLicey.JPG

Teammates at Licey are some Big Leaguers like Jorge Sosa, DÁngelo Jimenez, Eryck Aybar, Ronnie Paulino

[Agente Libre]

Thanks, but those links don't work.

[Paula59]

hmmm I´ll try it again http://baseball-akademie.de/bocachica/info/photos/11_11_08/GKaiuEn.JPG
http://baseball-akademie.de/bocachica/info/photos/11_11_08/EnorbLicey.JPG

or try this one here http://baseball-akademie.de/bocachica/news.htm#Georg and scroll down

[titorondon]

Apparently, Yadel Marti (P) and Yasser Gomez (OF) of Industriales have been caught trying to defect and have been suspended...

[Dalkowski110]

Incidentally, though I'm sure we know, Dayan Viciedo signed with the White Sox.

[J.P]

Everything to do with Cuban defectors and MLB is very strange. Sometimes Cubans are free agents and sometimes they're not, and not even MLB seems able to explain the difference between Player #1's status and Player #2's.

Baseball's Rule 4 says that any player who is a resident of the U.S. for even one day must go into the next draft before signing a contract, yet Viciedo, like Jose Contreras before him, was allowed to become a free agent after holding a press conference to announce he was in the U.S.

Strange business, baseball.

Well, first of all you know my position (and I think its similar to yours) on Cubans being subject to the draft. But I do understand the difference b/w player 1 and 2, and i think you do too, if they stablish residency in a third country they are considered FA's, and if they stablish residency in the US they have to go to the draft; of course US Inmigration Laws allow you to apply for residency after being in the country for one year and one day, and MLB seems to have a whole different concept of US Resident. As for Contreras and Viciedo first being in the US and then jumping to a third country and being allowed to be FA's, I guess it's because they never officially stablished residence in the US, I'm pretty sure Ichiro, Matsui, and Matsuzaka stayed in the US many times for more than one day yet they were not considered US residents.

[Agente Libre]

Well, first of all you know my position (and I think its similar to yours) on Cubans being subject to the draft. But I do understand the difference b/w player 1 and 2, and i think you do too, if they stablish residency in a third country they are considered FA's, and if they stablish residency in the US they have to go to the draft; of course US Inmigration Laws allow you to apply for residency after being in the country for one year and one day, and MLB seems to have a whole different concept of US Resident. As for Contreras and Viciedo first being in the US and then jumping to a third country and being allowed to be FA's, I guess it's because they never officially stablished residence in the US, I'm pretty sure Ichiro, Matsui, and Matsuzaka stayed in the US many times for more than one day yet they were not considered US residents.

You've got the facts right but you've come to the wrong conclusion. MLB, by rule, has a much more liberal definition of "U.S. resident" than the phrase usually means under federal law. Unlike guys like Ichiro or Matsuzaka who visited the U.S. on non-immigrant tourist visas, Dayan Viciedo and Jose Contreras both entered the U.S. by asking for refugee status, which is considered "residency" under MLB rules.

As you probably know, I've always believed that Cubans should be treated as free agents wherever they are (as long, of course, as they're out of Cuba). I just believe MLB should be consistent with their rulings. It's not fair to give free agency to the big guys, who have agents who pay to bribe foreign governments for fast papers, while either forcing the little guys into the draft, or making them wait for years outside the U.S. while their residency applications go through the "normal" process (that is, with no bribery involved).

I'm happy for Viciedo, but it's 100% clear his D.R. residency is illegal. Under D.R. law, it's impossible to get residency faster than one year unless the person is married to a Dominican. (And I'm quite sure young Mr. Viciedo wasn't married, legitimately, to any Dominican women before he left Cuba.)

[Martin Dihigo]

Folks,

FYI, the Cervezeros of Milwaukee have picked up Eduardo Morlan in the
Rule 5 draft . . . can anyone pass on any info that isn't covered in the following?


Rule 5 Draft offers Brewers 'pen option
Morlan expected to be sixth- or seventh-inning alternative
By Adam McCalvy / MLB.com

LAS VEGAS -- The Brewers added another bullpen option in Thursday's Rule 5 Draft when they plucked right-hander Eddie Morlan from the Rays' Double-A roster. . . .

Morlan, who will turn 23 before Opening Day, caught the eye of Milwaukee officials at last year's All-Star Futures Game at Yankee Stadium, according to Brewers director of pro scouting Dick Groch. The Brewers are working to fill holes in their bullpen, and Morlan fit the bill because he's a strike thrower.

Per Draft rules, the Brewers must keep Morlan on their 25-man roster all season or offer him back to Tampa Bay for half of the original $50,000 claimer's fee.

"Rule 5 guys are so tough to keep, so we had to find somebody who was strong and durable and somebody who throws strikes," Groch said. "It's always a stretch, but what you're looking for is a guy who can come in and throw strikes."

Morlan, whose best pitch is a 92-94 mph fastball, was 4-2 with a 3.64 ERA and one save in 30 relief appearances with Double-A Montgomery last season. He doesn't necessarily project as a closer, Groch said, but could serve the Brewers like Guillermo Mota did last season, when Mota started the year as a sixth- and seventh-inning man capable of working multiple frames.

Born in Cuba, Morlan and his family defected to the U.S. when he was 12 and settled in Miami. The Twins selected him in the third round of the 2004 First-Year Player Draft and traded him after the 2007 season to Tampa Bay along with shortstop Jason Bartlett and pitcher Matt Garza in the deal that sent Delmon Young to the Twins.

Milwaukee took Morlan with the 16th pick in the Rule 5 Draft, which is designed to prevent prospects from stagnating in their organization's Minor League chain . . .

[Mattingly]

White Sox sign Cuban infielder Viciedo (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3766202)

[Dalkowski110]

"can anyone pass on any info that isn't covered in the following?"

Yes. He had a calcium deposit in his right elbow (I *THINK*...I know it was some injury where he didn't need surgery and just had to grit it out) and ever since then, he's lost velocity on his fastball and his breaking ball movement comes and goes. When he's on, he's lights-out. When he's off, he struggles mightily.

[Martin Dihigo]

"can anyone pass on any info that isn't covered in the following?"

Yes. He had a calcium deposit in his right elbow (I *THINK*...I know it was some injury where he didn't need surgery and just had to grit it out) and ever since then, he's lost velocity on his fastball and his breaking ball movement comes and goes. When he's on, he's lights-out. When he's off, he struggles mightily.


Greaaat. Just what the Brewers need. Let's hope we get the "ON" Eddie.
Don't need another Mota.

[Dalkowski110]

As a Mets fan, I can definitively say that no matter how bad Eduardo Morlan may be, he cannot possibly be as bad as Guillermo Mota.

[Dalkowski110]

Yasser Gomez and Yadel Marti have apparently defected...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3798491

[CameronCrazies]

I don't know a lot about Marti. I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that Gomez could play center for many MLB teams right now. I'm off to find more info and maybe video of these two guys.

Congrats to them on their freedom although I know they left a lot behind. It's a tough life that most people can't even fathom.

I'll never forget that story of Abreu sitting outside the clubhouse all alone in the parking lot crying because his mother died.

[Dalkowski110]

"I don't know a lot about Marti."

Has a windup kinda like Luis Tiant or Hideo Nomo. Throws a fastball in the 87-90 mph range, also throws a slider, hard curve, slow curve, and sinking changeup of some kind, all of which he employs with regularity.

[Mischa]

I don't know a lot about Marti. I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that Gomez could play center for many MLB teams right now. I'm off to find more info and maybe video of these two guys.


I did a bio of Yasser Gomez - http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Yasser_Gomez - apart from last season, I can't say he looks that impressive. Very good contact and some walks, but absolutely zero power and not a lot of steals. He hasn't been playing CF lately for the Industriales, being used as a corner outfielder last year. He sounds like a lot more of a gamble than Alexei Ramirez. I think he could easily be as bad as Willy Taveras if the 2007-2008 season was a fluke. If it wasn't, he might be Ichiro Lite.

[Agente Libre]

I don't know a lot about Marti. I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that Gomez could play center for many MLB teams right now. ...

I did a bio of Yasser Gomez - http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Yasser_Gomez - apart from last season, I can't say he looks that impressive. Very good contact and some walks, but absolutely zero power and not a lot of steals. He hasn't been playing CF lately for the Industriales, being used as a corner outfielder last year. He sounds like a lot more of a gamble than Alexei Ramirez. I think he could easily be as bad as Willy Taveras if the 2007-2008 season was a fluke. If it wasn't, he might be Ichiro Lite.

While conceding Mischa's point about Gomez not having power or stealing bases, I agree with CameronCrazies on Gomez's overall ability.

In Cuba, for Industriales, Gomez ran into the same problem that a lot of other players have run into over the years: He found himself on a team that already had a star-level player playing Gomez's true position (CF), so he was bumped to RF/LF, which makes him, on paper, look like much less of an ML prospect.

Gomez is an elite, All-Star-caliber hitter with an OBP typically in the .400s. He has a plus arm and glove and it's probably not a stretch to say he's a Gold Glove-caliber defender. (If I recall, Gomez single-handedly saved Cuba a time or two with his glove in the 2000 Olympics.) I'd be shocked if he ever hits more than 5 HR per year in MLB, but I could see him stealing more bases in MLB than he did in Cuba. (Industriales is famous for playing station-to-station baseball, so Gomez's plus speed was never utilized in that way.)

To me, the most important thing is for these guys to get playing ASAP. At 29 (Marti) and 28 (Gomez) years of age, these guys could watch their careers slip away if they miss all of 2009 waiting for papers, etc.

[Agente Libre]

I did a bio of Yasser Gomez - http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Yasser_Gomez ...

I forgot to mention this above: The above is a very good bio of Gomez from a historical sense, but it seems to highlight the negatives a little more than the positives. It remains to be seen if or what Gomez will do in MLB, but in Cuba he was a very, very good player and likely one of the top 100 or 200 Cuban players of all-time. Without checking the numbers, I believe he's leaving Cuba with a career .330-plus average over 10-plus seasons and a career OBP close to, if not exceeding, .400.

One thing the bio above didn't mention, and something that has mostly been forgotten about Cuban baseball by now, is that Gomez accomplished the above while making the transition from aluminum to wood right as his National Series career was getting started. This transition also overlapped with his brief time on the National Team, and it wouldn't surprise me if the transition wasn't largely to blame for his struggles in international play. Otherwise, aside from the small-sample nature of such events, it's hard to figure out why a career .330/.400 guy struggled to hit .275 in such events. Aside from Cuba, Japan and U.S., it's not like the Olympics or Intercontinental Cup are chock-full of ML-caliber pitchers.

Time will tell. As I said above, if they're unable to start playing soon, the whole thing could be moot.

[Agente Libre]

... Without checking the numbers, I believe he's leaving Cuba with a career .330-plus average over 10-plus seasons and a career OBP close to, if not exceeding, .400. ...

A quick look at Bjarkman's site shows that Gomez leaves Cuba with a career average of .331, the 8th-best career average in the history of Cuban baseball. (Among the seven names above Gomez are Osmani Urrutia, Omar Linares, Michel Enriquez and Antonio Pacheco.)

[Mischa]

Gomez is an elite, All-Star-caliber hitter with an OBP typically in the .400s. He has a plus arm and glove and it's probably not a stretch to say he's a Gold Glove-caliber defender. (If I recall, Gomez single-handedly saved Cuba a time or two with his glove in the 2000 Olympics.) I'd be shocked if he ever hits more than 5 HR per year in MLB, but I could see him stealing more bases in MLB than he did in Cuba. (Industriales is famous for playing station-to-station baseball, so Gomez's plus speed was never utilized in that way.)

I had noticed that players steal a lot fewer bases in Cuba and wasn't sure if this was style of the game down there or simply few really good base thieves. From your description, it sounds more like the former. If Gomez can play CF excellently and can steal a fair number of bases, he might be an excellent signing.



To me, the most important thing is for these guys to get playing ASAP. At 29 (Marti) and 28 (Gomez) years of age, these guys could watch their careers slip away if they miss all of 2009 waiting for papers, etc.

I think it's especially important for Gomez. A pitcher isn't usually hurt by a layoff to rest their arm, but hitters rely greatly on playing regularly. We'll see when they sign. It didn't take Viciedo very long.

[Agente Libre]

It took Viciedo a little more than six months from defection to contract, but by the time he reports to spring training he will have missed almost 9 months of competitive play.

Because of the timing of when they left Cuba (six weeks before spring training), it seems like Marti and Gomez need things to happen much quicker, or else they could miss most or all of the 2009 season. January 2009 plus six months takes them to July, and then visa issues could come into play, and then they would assuredly need some minor league time to get up to speed.

I agree it's less of an issue for pitchers, but Marti just had a long break, and for control/command guys like him, too much downtime can be almost as bad as too many innings.

[CameronCrazies]

I hope he starts the season in AA so I can see him play in the Southern League. I would think he gets at least one month of minor league ball and they won't just throw him to the wolves.

Didn't affect Alexei though...

[Agente Libre]

I wouldn't be surprised if Viciedo needs more than a month of minor-league time before he's ready for the majors.

As for Alexei Ramirez, he was a much more advanced offensive player at the time he left Cuba, and it's tough to tell if he was affected or not. Remember, his stats were *ugly* through the first 4-6 weeks of the season, until he started getting regular playing time. Was it ML pitching, or the cold weather, or irregular playing time? I guess we'll never know.

[Mischa]

I see that Holguin's former catcher Ernesto Martinez now plays in France (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Ernesto_Mart%C3%ADnez). Did he defect? Retire and then continue in Europe a la Fausto Alvarez? Was he "lent out" like Omar Linares was to Chunichi at the end of his career?

[J.P]

According to someone in the spanish forum Jose Iglesias is on the brink of signing with the Tigers, and Noel Arguelles should be signing soon too.

[J.P]

I see that Holguin's former catcher Ernesto Martinez now plays in France (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Ernesto_Mart%C3%ADnez). Did he defect? Retire and then continue in Europe a la Fausto Alvarez? Was he "lent out" like Omar Linares was to Chunichi at the end of his career?

I'm inclined to believe he probably married an european woman and left the country legally a la Fausto Alvarez.

[J.P]

There is a rumor going around that Yoandi Urgelles and Serguey Perez have both left, as always with these rumors, it might turn out to be true, but it might as well not.

[J.P]

And yet another one, this one involves Jose Julio Ruiz.

[Anthony]

I am also a soccer fan and we always joke whenever the Cuba comes to the US for a game, we ask what the over-under on defections will be.

At a recent Olympics qualifier, so many Cubans defected that they had only 10 players for one game.

[emanuelsaavedra]

There is something that I dont understand and please correct me if im wrong. But why is peraza not in the lineup. I would put Enriquez in third, move Gourriel to second and make Peraza the DH. The guy is a beast at bat, I understand that he is not a good defender, but seriously I would prefer his bat to Nava's. What do you all think?

[Mischa]

There is something that I dont understand and please correct me if im wrong. But why is peraza not in the lineup. I would put Enriquez in third, move Gourriel to second and make Peraza the DH. The guy is a beast at bat, I understand that he is not a good defender, but seriously I would prefer his bat to Nava's. What do you all think?

Gourriel's a shaky enough defender at third and Enriquez is worse; by making this move, you'd gain a bit of net offense (Peraza over Olivera) but you'd lose a lot at defense. I'd prefer to see Peraza instead of Pestano at catcher, but as Pestano is retiring, Cuba doesn't have the guts to bench him during his farewell tour.

[Agente Libre]

I agree with Mischa. I'd rather see Gourriel at 3B, Olivera at 2B and Peraza replace Enriquez at DH (or Pestano at C, although Peraza isn't exactly Pudge Rodriguez defensively) than anything that bumps Olivera out of the lineup.

(Anyway, further discussion of this should be in the WBC thread(s), though, and not this one.)

[emanuelsaavedra]

any rumors about possible defections at the WBC, I understand that security is going to be very tight during this tourney but I have heard a lot that maybe Chapman would make a run for it. It would be interesting to see what a 21 yo with a 98 mph fastball is going for nowadays.

[Agente Libre]

The Cuban team returned to Cuba on a 2:00 p.m. charter today. I've heard nothing of possible defections at the WBC.

As for non-WBC defections, the Yoandry Urgelles and Serguey Perez rumor listed above apparently has been confirmed as false, while people still are claiming Jose Julio Ruiz has been "missing" for over a month.

Also, today's Peter Gammons column had this odd one-sentence note: "Word is there might be another handful of young Cuban players defecting in the next few weeks." I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, as defections typically aren't announced in advance.

Gammons also had this note about Dayan Viciedo: "... 20-year-old Dayan Viciedo and Gordon Beckham have opened a lot of eyes. Viciedo, who looks like Pedro Guerrero, needs a lot of work at third base in the minors, but the ball jumps off his bat to right-center. ... Those tryouts can be a little crude. When Viciedo worked out last winter, he dazzled scouts by running the 60-yard dash in 6.5 seconds. Afterward, a couple of skeptical scouts measured the course and found it was 50 yards, not 60. Oh, well, a 6.5 50 isn't all bad."

[scaffolds]

According to someone in the spanish forum Jose Iglesias is on the brink of signing with the Tigers, and Noel Arguelles should be signing soon too.

Arguelles has drawn the interest of many organizations, but to my understanding he may not sign until July second.

[Agente Libre]

Are you talking about Noel Arguelles or his younger brother? If Noel, he's 19 years old -- why would he not sign until July 2?

[titorondon]

Are you talking about Noel Arguelles or his younger brother? If Noel, he's 19 years old -- why would he not sign until July 2?
Apparently he became younger...

[Agente Libre]

Apparently he became younger...

Ha ha. That would be a first for Cuban players.

[emanuelsaavedra]

is there any way that you guys may be able to give a list of the cuban players in the majors and minors which may be more accurate than the one that you have in the first page. That list is a couple of years old and I think that some of the players are not playing anymore.

I would appreciate if someone has the info and could provide it

Thank you in advance

[Mischa]

Barbaro Canizares (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/B%C3%A1rbaro_Ca%C3%B1izares) has made the show.

[Dalkowski110]

And finally, some news on Jose Julio Ruiz...

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4271392&name=arangure_jorge_jr

Although you have to have ESPN Insider to read the article, it says Ruiz is in the Dominican Republic and working on becoming a free agent.

[Agente Libre]

And finally, some news on Jose Julio Ruiz...

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4271392&name=arangure_jorge_jr

Although you have to have ESPN Insider to read the article, it says Ruiz is in the Dominican Republic and working on becoming a free agent.

I think you mean Miami. That's where the press conference was held.

[emanuelsaavedra]

does anyone know what is going on with yadel marti and yasser gomez. They came in december and I havent heard anything about a contract to either one. I mean there seems to be interest from MLB teams and there have been players that got their stuff in order and signed in less than two months. I mean, neither of these two guys are kids, so I find it strange that there are no contract talks with anyone. The way its looking it seems like they are going to lose the season this year and that is not good news for them, like I said they are not getting any younger.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I just have to find it hard to believe that they have not found a way to a contract because there are teams that sound legitimately interested (white sox could use some pitching and leadoff hitters). So it must be an immigration issue, and I am surprised that their agent has not found a way to work some "magic" to get them the papers. (Everything is for sale in latin america) so its kind of hard to believe that their agent would not have done something to speed up the process.

[Dalkowski110]

"I think you mean Miami. That's where the press conference was held."

Sorry, pulled it off MLBTradeRumors, and they said it was in the DR. I don't have ESPN Insider.

[Agente Libre]

does anyone know what is going on with yadel marti and yasser gomez. They came in december and I havent heard anything about a contract to either one.

As of a week ago, the rumor was that they had finally gone to the D.R. -- after hanging out in Miami for about 4 months -- and were trying to get free agency there.

I mean there seems to be interest from MLB teams

I'm not so sure about this. I haven't seen either of their names in a single media report since last December when they left Cuba. At their ages, I doubt there is, or will be, substantial interest in them, especially after they've now gone an entire year without playing baseball (because of their suspensions in Cuba). Even worse, by spring training 2010, they will have missed almost TWO years of baseball.

and there have been players that got their stuff in order and signed in less than two months.

Those days are long over. Now, the whole business of Cuban defectors is controlled by criminals and idiots. Instead of leaving at foreign tournaments like most players did back in the '90s, all of the recent Cuban players leave Cuba with human smugglers, who then often hold onto them for many months while trying to "sell" them to agents.

Then, almost always, the agents ship the players to the D.R., because agents can charge higher fees in the D.R. than anywhere else. But, because the D.R. president loves Fidel, it's VERY difficult for Cubans to get papers in the D.R. right now, so most players sit there for at least a year. In fact, at this moment, there are over 20 Cuban baseball players sitting in the D.R. without papers and/or MLB contracts. Some of them have been waiting 2 years or more.

I mean, neither of these two guys are kids, so I find it strange that there are no contract talks with anyone. The way its looking it seems like they are going to lose the season this year and that is not good news for them, like I said they are not getting any younger.

You're exactly right, but unfortunately, Cuban players aren't well educated about MLB and business, and they just listen to whomever it is that got them out of Cuba or is paying for their meals and rent. By the time most Cuban players figure out they're in a bad situation, they've lost six months or a year (or 18 months) and it's too late to get good money. No team is going to invest millions of dollars in a 28-year-old player who hasn't played competitive baseball in one or two years.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Well, thank you for clearing these questions for me. On one hand though, I think that there have to be teams interested, specially in Marti, I mean there are teams like the Yankees, Orioles, White Sox, Angels, and 8 or 9 other teams that are needing pitching, so I think that he could find a contract. its not going to be Contreras' numbers, but there are going to be I assume more than one team lining up for them. In the Case of Gomez, I think that he will have a much harder time finding a spot on a team, because he has no power. But he could be picked up by a team like the White Sox, Padres, or Royals, etc that could use up a good glove in the outfield and some speed, besides I believe that Gomez could get in a few hot streaks over a year to be a very decent hitter and flirt with 300. Now Im not saying the guy is Ichiro, but if he gets hot at the right time, he could be a very useful addition for a very good price. What do you all think? Please let me know

[Agente Libre]

I didn't say I expected Marti and Gomez not to sign contracts at all; I just said I doubt there will be substantial interest or any sort of bidding war. Gomez is almost 30 yrs old and has neither power nor stolen-base speed. Marti also is pushing 30 yrs old and is coming off 2-3 mediocre seasons, plus some injuries. Combine those factors with up to two years away from baseball and they'll have a tough time getting big money.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Im sorry I never meant to say that you implied that they wouldnt get signed. But yeah youre right they are going to get some really low salaries, I just think that marti I believe has the ability to be a guy who can throw a complete game or can come in for a couple of innings and that would I believe make him a much more interesting guy to sign. Then the thing that I think of Gomez is that if Scott Podzednik is still hitting leadoff for the Sox even though he cant hit 250, its going to be hard to believe that there would not be at least 3 or 4 teams interested (not saying paying big money) but at least interested in signing a player for a low salary that could give you a couple of good years while a hot prospect gets up to the majors. What do you think?

[Agente Libre]

I agree. Both guys have talent; they just waited too long to leave Cuba, and now they're wasting too much time screwing around with free agency. They would have been better off just going into the draft. At least if they made the majors, they'd make over $400,000 per year (minimum). But now, they're going to lose the whole season.

I'm sure this will sound bad, but Cuban players don't seem very smart. They keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. I don't understand it.

[emanuelsaavedra]

you are right, being smart is not one quality most ballplayers are known for in cuba :-) . I just wish they would understand that if you even think that you want to come to the states, you should do it young. Take Viciedo for example the guy comes over when he was young and no strings attached (wife, kids), now he is set up for a long and wealthy carreer. I mean Yasser made team Cuba ten years ago, I understand that I am talking about something that I dont know much about, but leaving Cuba must be a thing he thought about for years before he was married with kids etc. I just understand that once you have a family and kids, its a lot harder to make that jump. But if players want to leave and they make team Cuba when they are like 20-23, then make the jump then, otherwise all you are doing is wasting time, take Cañizares for example, the guy is ripping up AAA, but no one wants to take at bats away from a prospect to give them to a 30+, solid player, but still 30+. If he would have been 25 he would be hitting 2nd in a major league team.

[Agente Libre]

You're exactly right, but these players don't seem to learn. Guys like Kendry and Viciedo left when they were young and got millions; players like Canizares and Casanas left when they were old and got close to $0. When you look at the whole list of defectors, Cuban players probably have lost $100 million or more because they spent an extra 5 years in Cuba. Very dumb.

[Mischa]

Rumors out of the Netherlands are that Aroldis Chapman (http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Aroldis_Chapman) has defected during the World Port Tournament. Most intriguing Cuban defector since Kendry Morales - 100 mph fastball, but wild and his ERAs in Cuba have been unimpressive. I could see him becoming a Randy Johnson or a bust.

[Paula59]

also Info here http://www.mister-baseball.com/aroldis-chapman-defects-cuban-team-rotterdam/

[Dogdaze]

Does anyone have any information/Statistics on Jose Iglesias?

[Richard]

I wonder who will sign Chapman? I know it won't be the Marlins.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Unfortunately it wont be the marlins. They are too cheap to be in the run for a guy like that. I believe that it will come to teams like the Red Sox and the Yankees, maybe the Mets will be there, but the guy was impressive at times in the WBC, and you have to realize that most people attributed his mistakes to his young age. I just think that the price tab is going to be a bit high for the White Sox on this one. In a perfect world, Chapman would sign with a team like the Red Sox, or the Giants who are not in desperate need of pitching so that he can spend a year in the minors and get used to the style of play here. I think that if he signs for someone who is desperate for pitching he will get rushed up to the majors and will probably be a bust. He has to be dealt with like a draft signee. Make him prove himself in the minors and when hes ready bring him up.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I know a lot of people get really excited when they hear 100 mph fastball, but the problem with a fastball like that is that its a lot easier to hit homers off them. So whoever gets this guy needs to give him time to get used to the USA.

[quinnystar27]

I wonder how he will do in terms of contract. Is he stephen strasburg money or standard money. I also wonder if this will push pressure on cuba to let players back in the national team even if they defected.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I dont think he'll command Strasboug money, a lot of the dollar figures usually have to do with the agents. Strasbourg is represented by Scott Boras who is according to people in baseball a royal pain in the ass, but also a royal pain in the ass that can empty an owner's pockets. If Chapman can get a good agent, then he will I believe command Contreras' money. If he just signs for this inept guy who negotiated the contract of Ramires (jaime torres I think) then he'll get good money, but not great money. Its all a matter of who the guy picks to be his agent. Regardless of anything else he is going to have a million+ per year, after all he is a 20some yar old with a 100 mph fastball, there are not a lot of those walking around. Maybe if I were him, and he cant create a lot of buzz, then I would sign a short contract and prove myself and then in a year or two come out and command BIG money. I mean I dont like to buy into hype. But if this guy can get his head straight, he could actually be a Randy Johnson type pitcher.

[emanuelsaavedra]

So in short here is what I would do if I was Chapman:

1. As soon as you set foot in the US, go to Scott Boras' home and show him some video.
2. If that doesnt work, then get a baseball and show him your fastball (that should convince him)
3. Show Boras a birth certificate that shows your real birthdate, or work with him to "work out some magic on the date" ;-)
4. Then, DO NOT got to the DR, that seems to be hell for cuban players nowadays (aka Marti and Gomez)
5. Make sure that your contract has a clause that says that you have to spend at least a year in the minors unless your ERA in AAA is like 0.01
6. Then sit back and enjoy a lot of money and a hopefully good and long career.

[emanuelsaavedra]

sorry for the three messages, this things have just come to mind at separate times. Someone asked if this defection would change Cuba's mind to let pros play for the national team, and the answer to that is NO. As long as the Castros are in power Cuba will never let a major leaguer wear their uniform. Raul Castro would rather the team get mercy ruled by the Congo that allow a pro to wear Cuba across their chest. Trust me, the defection of Contreras and Kendry were much more hard felt than this one and nothing happened except for Cuba now has a weaker team. Contreras was a hero in Cuba like not many others, I would say in his day only Omar Linares was more of a hero in cuban baseball, and there was so much hype about Kendry, I remember his rookie season in Cuba and the guy was hughe. The government rarely ever tries to publizice one player in Cuba, but with Kendry they threw all caution to the wind, they LOVED him in Cuba. If those defections did not change the hearts of the government in Cuba, nothing will. Please guys tell me what you think

[Agente Libre]

Raul Castro would rather the team get mercy ruled by the Congo that allow a pro to wear Cuba across their chest.

Congratulations -- That was probably the funniest line in this entire thread.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Thanks, its kind of funny I guess, also its pretty sad, at first and after Contreras I was hoping that Cuba would open their eyes and would let the pros make the team, but there is no chance. I thought that they would do the same thing as Venezuela which is still a Chavez' kingdom but lets their major leaguers play for their team. But no, no chance of that happening in Cuba. Shame because Contreras belongs in a Cuba shirt

[quinnystar27]

Your probably 100% right. But I let's play baseball politics. I have heard rumors, granted I haven't been to cuba in like 8 years but I saw in news articles about cuba opening and closing it doors to the USA. Remember the embargo is the USA I do think they will mind sending players to Japan lets say. of course cuba will never do that.

Two things have survived in cuba since the 1950s, one Fidel Castro and the quality of cuban baseball. Can baseball really bring cuba to the table? Remember contreras and el duque came when cuban baseball was at the top and still believed by many who do not buy into the MLB superiority as the best baseball playing nation. Now we know at least korea and japan are better then cuba (classic speaking wise). Cuba lost some of its best pitchers and up and coming players to the MLB teams. With events like the olympics and WBC bring baseball into the international prominence maybe cuba will not want to give up it's best players to capitalism but they might have to in order to keep cuba a household name. And let the players come back who defected.

A article by the miami herald about a cuban boxer who beat some of the top pro fighters during their olympic years. Yet he had trouble buying soap and would steal things from hotels when he travelled with the cuban boxing team to bring to his family. He still sends money back home. I wonder would a cuban baseball player put money before family. If they prefer wealth or simple enough family to take care of their family maybe they will leave in greater numbers. Maybe too much of that pressure will force the government to change it's stance.

I think what was said in previous posts is true this will never happen. But maybe baseball is the way out. Castro vs. Baseball, I wonder who will win.

[emanuelsaavedra]

You are right in regards to the cuban system having suffered a lot because of the defections. Also, it is very clear that Japan's league and the MLB are way much better than Cuba. I dont know what to say about the local league in Korea thought. Because most of the good players from Korea are not playing in Korea, they either play in Japan or in the US. Also, I believe that it is safe to assume that some of the best cuban players are in the US and still Cuba would have a really good chance of beating Korea any day of the week. Without some of their best players Cuba is one of the favorites to win the classic, so with those players they would be one of the 2-3 best teams if not the best.
Cuba can produce good players and will continue to do so. That is the reason why baseball will never open up, even if the embargo is lifted. There is no negaotiating with Castro about this, its just not happening. Cuba will keep fielding a team that will be good enough to be competitive, and as long as they do, then they will never have to open up.

When it comes to the players, like I said before, it is very important that players jump when they are young. Not only for salary reasons, but because you are a lot less willing to make a jump if you have a family behind. Yes you can support them, but it sucks not being able to see them. So its better to make the jump before you are married or have major ties to CUba. There have been a lot of players that have failed and a lot of it was due to the fact that they were playing ball in the US but their head were still in Cuba. If you have millions of dollars hanging on the balance. The ony place your head should be at is in the baseball field

[emanuelsaavedra]

Hey, does anyone have any info on the agent that Chapman signed with? I believe that it is Edwin Leonel Mejia, and owns a firm called Athletes Premier International. I was wandering does anyone have any info on this guy and who he represents before I go screaming into the woods? Really, I see these cuban players and they seem to be making mistakes after mistakes. Baseball contracts are just as much about the agent as they are about the players' ability. Really, do you think that there is a player worth $252 million dollars???? But Scott Boras can MAKE his players be worth that much. Chapman in my opinion should have gotten to the US, taken some time to study the business part of the game and called someone like Matt Sosnick, or another one of these guys. Someone who has experience and can make you the extra little bit of money. Trust me, Im sure Dontrelle Willis is glad that Matt Sosnick got him that contract with the Tigers, dont you think?

I mean seriously, maybe this guy that Champan signed with turns out to be the next Scott Boras, but why take the chance? He could have gotten any agent (proven agent) he wanted. What do you all think?

[jalbright]

Hey, does anyone have any info on the agent that Chapman signed with? I believe that it is Edwin Leonel Mejia, and owns a firm called Athletes Premier International. I was wandering does anyone have any info on this guy and who he represents before I go screaming into the woods? Really, I see these cuban players and they seem to be making mistakes after mistakes. Baseball contracts are just as much about the agent as they are about the players' ability. Really, do you think that there is a player worth $252 million dollars???? But Scott Boras can MAKE his players be worth that much. Chapman in my opinion should have gotten to the US, taken some time to study the business part of the game and called someone like Matt Sosnick, or another one of these guys. Someone who has experience and can make you the extra little bit of money. Trust me, Im sure Dontrelle Willis is glad that Matt Sosnick got him that contract with the Tigers, dont you think?

I mean seriously, maybe this guy that Champan signed with turns out to be the next Scott Boras, but why take the chance? He could have gotten any agent (proven agent) he wanted. What do you all think?

Boras may be able to inflate the value of his guys, but he can't get a team to pay $10 million a year or more for, oh, Mario Mendoza. OTOH, an agent can get his guy tied into a contract well below his value, which leaves him the choices of holding out in hopes of forcing a better deal or honoring a deal which seriously underpays him. The key is to get an agent who consistently gets his guys fair market value or better. That said, these newbies to the agent game (at least those not former GMs or player-personnel types) are a risk of getting the underpaying contract.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Boras may be able to inflate the value of his guys, but he can't get a team to pay $10 million a year or more for, oh, Mario Mendoza. OTOH, an agent can get his guy tied into a contract well below his value, which leaves him the choices of holding out in hopes of forcing a better deal or honoring a deal which seriously underpays him. The key is to get an agent who consistently gets his guys fair market value or better. That said, these newbies to the agent game (at least those not former GMs or player-personnel types) are a risk of getting the underpaying contract.

Well I understand that there is no way that an agent will make Juan Uribe make A-Rod money, but I think that we can all agree that Texeira would not have gotten the kind of money he got unless he was a Boras player. That said, I think it was a big mistake for Chapman to not sign with an experienced agent who had a track record of big signings. Chapman is going to make money either way, but I just think that he could have made more money by going with an agent that has a bigger reputation. For example, I bet Alexei Ramirez is kicking himself now for the contract that he got. Seriously I know he was small and all but he was the home run champ in Cuba and he just got barely over a million a year for 4 years!! Do you see what I mean, I think that if he had been represented by someone else he would have made much more money. What do you all think?

[Agente Libre]

Hey, does anyone have any info on the agent that Chapman signed with? I believe that it is Edwin Leonel Mejia, and owns a firm called Athletes Premier International. I was wandering does anyone have any info on this guy and who he represents before I go screaming into the woods? Really, I see these cuban players and they seem to be making mistakes after mistakes.

Edwin Leonel Mejia is a criminal defense attorney from Boston was has zero experience as an agent. Very, very strange choice by Chapman, and one that could cost him millions of dollars (and/or months of wasted time).

Baseball contracts are just as much about the agent as they are about the players' ability. ... Chapman in my opinion should have gotten to the US, taken some time to study the business part of the game and called someone like Matt Sosnick, or another one of these guys. Someone who has experience and can make you the extra little bit of money. Trust me, Im sure Dontrelle Willis is glad that Matt Sosnick got him that contract with the Tigers, dont you think?

Sosnick actually has a poor reputation among agents. He's the exact opposite of Scott Boras -- very passive. The Dontrelle Willis contract was mostly about the Tigers trying to make a statement, and not much re: Sosnick.

I mean seriously, maybe this guy that Champan signed with turns out to be the next Scott Boras, but why take the chance? He could have gotten any agent (proven agent) he wanted. What do you all think?

You're right, it's a very strange choice. But then, everything about this Chapman story is strange. Why did he defect in Holland when he, and his whole family, could have escaped to Mexico by boat? Now, it might be YEARS before Chapman sees his family again.

Boras may be able to inflate the value of his guys, but he can't get a team to pay $10 million a year or more for, oh, Mario Mendoza. OTOH, an agent can get his guy tied into a contract well below his value, which leaves him the choices of holding out in hopes of forcing a better deal or honoring a deal which seriously underpays him. The key is to get an agent who consistently gets his guys fair market value or better. That said, these newbies to the agent game (at least those not former GMs or player-personnel types) are a risk of getting the underpaying contract.

Absolutely right. Guys like this Edwin Leonel Mejia guy likely don't care if the player is worth $25 million or $100 million. They just want to get deals done ASAP to make sure they score a commission before the player fires him and moves on to some other agent.

Plus, in this case, there's a massive amount of paperwork that needs to be done for Cubans before they can sign a contract. It's crazy for Chapman to trust a first-timer with all of this.

... That said, I think it was a big mistake for Chapman to not sign with an experienced agent who had a track record of big signings. Chapman is going to make money either way, but I just think that he could have made more money by going with an agent that has a bigger reputation. For example, I bet Alexei Ramirez is kicking himself now for the contract that he got. Seriously I know he was small and all but he was the home run champ in Cuba and he just got barely over a million a year for 4 years!! Do you see what I mean, I think that if he had been represented by someone else he would have made much more money. What do you all think?

You're exactly right. Even for his big reputation, Jaime Torres has done a lot more bad contracts than good contracts, and even worse, something like 15 of his clients haven't signed at all.

But as I said above, Cuban players just don't seem to learn. They make the same mistakes over and over and over again, and by the time they get smart, it's too late -- they're either hurt, too old, have big paperwork problems, etc., etc.

[jalbright]

emanuel,

I agreed with you that a person not used to being an agent amounts to a gamble he won't let Chapman down. Read the last sentence of my post again if you doubt it. There are agents who may not get their guys maximum money, but rarely wind up agreeing to contracts which aren't at least market value at the time of the signing. If Chapman couldn't get Boras, he needed one of those.

Boras has the advantage of picking and choosing clients at this point, so he usually has above average leverage, which allows him to do his thing successfully. He wouldn't get as many top dollar deals if he had a less talented stable of clients, even relative to the talent of those clients.

[Agente Libre]

This guy Edwin Leonel Mejia, Chapman's newly-minted agent, runs a sports agency, a law firm, and a real estate agency out of the same office in Boston. He's also listed as the CEO of a firm that does search-engine optimization for websites.

How the hell does the best international prospect since Matsuzaka, and maybe the best international prospect ever, end up with an amateur like Edwin Leonel Mejia?

[emanuelsaavedra]

This guy Edwin Leonel Mejia, Chapman's newly-minted agent, runs a sports agency, a law firm, and a real estate agency out of the same office in Boston. He's also listed as the CEO of a firm that does search-engine optimization for websites.

How the hell does the best international prospect since Matsuzaka, and maybe the best international prospect ever, end up with an amateur like Edwin Leonel Mejia?

I mean, I guess I can see how Chapman made this mistake. Not too long ago my family was coming from Cuba to the US, and its very different at first. Everything is just completely different, so some guy dressed in a suit comes and tells you a story that sounds good and you just jump because you are desperate to just make money and get your family out etc.

On the other hand, Chapman has to know someone in the states. If I were him I would have found a friend and asked him if I could crash in his place for a couple of weeks (trust me Chapman can pay him later) and would have tried to do some studying and tried to see whats out there before he makes the jump. I mean he knew about the other players and how they won or failed. He may have not been an expert, but cuban players talk about how other players do in the states. So he had some idea of how things are like and what mistakes not to make and he still made them. I know that Boras may be too big for Chapman (I doubt it but oh well) however, there are other agents who have good experience out there. I would have looked for one of them. I understand that there may be a lot of legal stuff in the way, but Im sure that any agent would have likely done it to score a commission on Chapman's contract. What do you all think?

[jalbright]

There's little doubt that an agent could hire an attorney or attornies who would quite capably handle the legal issues and still leave more than enough for the agent and this player to divide up in this case--quite possibly more than this agent will get for this player. Given the risk of a seriously below market contract, I'd strongly suggest finding an experienced agent who would also make sure the legal issues were resolved.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I just really hope that everything works out for Chapman, I really think that this kid has what it takes to make it big time, all we can do now is just sit back and pray that everything goes right for him and that he signs with a team that will allow him to pay his dues in the minors and not rush him up before time.

Anyways, I read somewhere that Yasser and Marti had gotten all of their papers in order and were ready to sign, any truth to this or is it just another rumor? Please let me know, I cant hope till those guys are signed and playing in the majors

[Agente Libre]

I think that was just a rumor re: Marti and Gomez. Someone on one of the Spanish boards seems to have misinterpreted a rumor and passed it around as news.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Ok, I see, well shame, I see people like this and I feel sorry for them, they are truly running out of time. Oh well.

By the way, I think that we all have to be rather happy about our cuban players in the majors this year, it has been a good start of the season for them. I mean Kendry has clearly overachieved this year hitting a lot better than most people would. Contreras is much better and seems to be back to his ways of old, finally. Ramirez started really slow, but has been hitting very well lately and should be able to have a 25/25 season. Escobar has been keeping a good average in Atlanta, and Livan and Danys Baez havent been that great, but Livan should win a few games with the Mets and Danys should get a couple of saves in Baltimore, or at least if he is able to put together a few good innings get a good ERA. So I think in general it has been a good season for cubans in baseball. The winner by far at the moment is Kendry I think, this guy actually has a chance for a 30/100 season. What do you all think in general?

[emanuelsaavedra]

guys, I wanted to ask you because I can think of nobody else that would know. Now that itws the summer and school is out me and some of my buddies were thinking about restarting on a project. Basically we wanted to create a pc video game about cuban baseball. The problem is that we need good qulity photos of the stadiums and player faces etc to make this happen and with decent quality. In the past I had used the radio coco site to get pictures from there, but they seem to have closed the site down. So now we have the time and resources to make it work, but no sources of good quality images. Can you guys tell me of sites where I can find these pics or if you have good pictures help me out with them. So far we have the uniforms done, and are working on the rosters, but we need good pictures of the player faces and the stadiums mainly. Please if you can help me out I would thank you forever.

[J.P]

Breaking news, according to the blog Terreno de Pelota (which I find very credible) Yunieski Maya was suppossedly caught tryng to leave. They just came out with the rosters two All Stat teams (East and West)
that will play a series of games and from which the final team for the World Cup will be selected and Maya is not in those rosters so......

[J.P]

Ok, I see, well shame, I see people like this and I feel sorry for them, they are truly running out of time. Oh well.

By the way, I think that we all have to be rather happy about our cuban players in the majors this year, it has been a good start of the season for them. I mean Kendry has clearly overachieved this year hitting a lot better than most people would. Contreras is much better and seems to be back to his ways of old, finally. Ramirez started really slow, but has been hitting very well lately and should be able to have a 25/25 season. Escobar has been keeping a good average in Atlanta, and Livan and Danys Baez havent been that great, but Livan should win a few games with the Mets and Danys should get a couple of saves in Baltimore, or at least if he is able to put together a few good innings get a good ERA. So I think in general it has been a good season for cubans in baseball. The winner by far at the moment is Kendry I think, this guy actually has a chance for a 30/100 season. What do you all think in general?

I dont think Kendry has overachieved, I actually think he will continue to get better. As far as Livan he has been getting knocked around in his last couple of starts and his ERA has gone over 5, Danys has been pitching pretty good, but a couple of bad outings have also damaged his ERA. You forgot to mention Michel Hernandez, whos been doing a nice job as Tampa's backup.

[emanuelsaavedra]

yeah, I didnt remember Hernandez, Im glad to see him doing better. Shame that Maya got caught. Although he doesnt strike me as a great pitcher in the states. I mean he's from my state, so I want him to be great, and he has great numbers in Cuba, I just think that he doesnt have the stuff to be a great starter. I dont know. In any case, I guess that kills any chance Pinar had of making a title run next year. What I mean with Livan was that because he plays for the Mets he should be able to get a few wins, although they seem to be worst than an ER in New York lately, so he better get his act together because I think he's on one of his last ropes here. If he wants a job next year, he should start getting some scorless innings. What I meant by Kendry overachieving was that I thought he would be good for a 280/20/80 year and he seems to be in pace for a 285/30/100 year which is MUCH better than my expectations for him. I bet the Angels are feeling really smart now.

Again guys, sorry to ask again, but do you know if they shut down the radiococo site and do you know where to get good quality pics of cuban baseball, specially players faces and stadium? Any info will be appreaciated.

[Agente Libre]

I'm not aware of any good sites for high-quality pics of Cuban players or stadiums. Some of the Cuban media outlets run pictures with their stories, but that's it.

The news about Maya is interesting. I like those guys at TP and on the Spanish boards, but they go nuts every time a player leaves (or gets caught leaving), but then don't seem to care that almost none of the players are signing contracts. I'm happy these guys are finding freedom and all that, but it sort of defeats the purpose for players to leave if they don't sign MLB contracts. Right now, there are almost 30 Cuban players who don't have immigration papers and/or MLB contracts.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I believe that cuban players are in a bad position. Back in the days of Joe Cuba, the Dominican was great, he could buy these guys papers in no time, however because of the days that we are leaving in and all the threat of terrorism, that has become a lot more complicated. You are right it is nice that you get freedom and all but it doesnt help if you are away from family and friends and w/o contract either. Now please tell me if this is just a stupid suggestion.

Couldn't cuban players just try to play in Japan while they get their papers figured out? I mean its not MLB money but its great competition that will keep you in front of MLB scouts and its a paycheck, maybe not as big as the one in the majors, but its not too bad either. Besides, you would be playing against some of the best players in the world. So is that even a possibility? I mean I dont really know, I just dont know what no one has tried it before. Please tell me if there are any major legal obstacles here.

BTW, did anyone see Kendry's homer yesterday? That thing was a monster shot!!!

[Agente Libre]

Japan wouldn't be a bad idea, per se, but Japan has a gentlemen's agreement with Cuba not to sign Cuban defectors. Plus, without papers, there's no way for Cubans to even get to Japan.

[Mischa]

Japan wouldn't be a bad idea, per se, but Japan has a gentlemen's agreement with Cuba not to sign Cuban defectors. Plus, without papers, there's no way for Cubans to even get to Japan.

That's not true. Former defector Juan Carlos Muniz has played in Japan as did Orestes Destrade.

[Dalkowski110]

"That's not true. Former defector Juan Carlos Muniz has played in Japan as did Orestes Destrade."

I believe AL meant those defectors that had not already played in the US and/or established residency in the US or DR.

[Agente Libre]

That's not true. Former defector Juan Carlos Muniz has played in Japan as did Orestes Destrade.

Orestes Destrade is not a Cuban defector. He moved to the U.S. at age 6.

Juan Carlos Muniz apparently signed in Japan because of contacts he made while living in Brazil, which has a large Japanese community.

Executives of 2-3 different Japanese teams have told me directly that they cannot sign Cuban defectors.

[emanuelsaavedra]

When El Duque came over, he came over with another player, a guy who was a catcher in Cuba, I cant remember his name right now. In the book El Duque of Havana, te author says that he had a really bad tryout and could not get a contract with a ML team, but it goes on to say that he played about 3 years of pro ball in Asia, I believe Japan. Please correct me in this if I'm wrong. I mean, even if you cant sign in Japan, then sign a 1 year deal in Taiwan, Korea, Mexico, the Dominican, anywhere. Its just that some baseball is better than no baseball. Even if you are playing in a lower league, you get to keep playing and stay in shape. Besides it can only better your grades with scouts if you go to Korea or Mexico and dominate there too. What do you all think?

[Dalkowski110]

The catcher that defected with el Duque, whose name was Alberto Hernandez, played in Taiwan. As you may imagine due to its rivalry with China, Taiwan is no friend of communism...if anything, they would welcome a Cuban defector.

[J.P]

I'm not aware of any good sites for high-quality pics of Cuban players or stadiums. Some of the Cuban media outlets run pictures with their stories, but that's it.

The news about Maya is interesting. I like those guys at TP and on the Spanish boards, but they go nuts every time a player leaves (or gets caught leaving), but then don't seem to care that almost none of the players are signing contracts. I'm happy these guys are finding freedom and all that, but it sort of defeats the purpose for players to leave if they don't sign MLB contracts. Right now, there are almost 30 Cuban players who don't have immigration papers and/or MLB contracts.

And you saw what happened when I tried raising the subject of how hard its becoming for cuban defectors to sign.

[J.P]

The catcher that defected with el Duque, whose name was Alberto Hernandez, played in Taiwan. As you may imagine due to its rivalry with China, Taiwan is no friend of communism...if anything, they would welcome a Cuban defector.

Didn't he have a minor stint in the Mariners system too?

[emanuelsaavedra]

I mean, I know nothing about the Taiwanese league, but I do know that they have a respectable national team and if their baseball league is an indication of their national team, it might be a good alternative for a cuban player to play for a while there while he gets his stull figured out. I just think that they are only hurting themselves by not playing at all. Besides I am sure that the Taiwanese officials and players would appreciate the influx of ML scouts coming to see the cubans play, IDK if you are a kid in this league and you have a good showing it might earn you a contract with a MLB team. I just think both parties could win here. What do you all think?

[Agente Libre]

Didn't he have a minor stint in the Mariners system too?

He did, indeed. He signed with Seattle at least 2-3 years after leaving Cuba, went to spring training for 1-2 weeks, and then quit and went back to Costa Rica. It's one of the strangest, most unexplained stories I've ever heard re: a defector.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Well in Cuba we have had the case of players being a lot older than their ages state. I know that there was a case of a pitcher who after a couple of years of minor league ball just quit one day, and his coach asked him why he just said he couldnt do it anymore, that he just knew he had nothing left, so he just quit, I think he has an academy or is coaching a small team somewhere in south florida. Maybe this is the case of this guy, being a catcher he took a beating from the position anyways, and in Cuba they work the athletes a lot harder than other countries.

[J.P]

I have a friend who was a high profile track and field athlete, he is still in Cuba so I rather not name him, and he told me once that it is common practice indeed to shave years off their ages to not make it look like they keep sending the same "dinosaurs" to compete against kids. This was before the big wave of defections, so I dont know if they still want to make their athletes look younger.

[emanuelsaavedra]

well, like I mentioned before not only the age issue, but also the fact that athletes are overused in Cuba, I mean there were occasions where Contreras and other pitchers would pitch 23+ innings in a matter of 5-6 days in a world cup. I mean, people ask themselves why there are so many players retiring so early in Cuba and some of it has to do that by the time they are 32 they have been used so much that they just dont have anything else to give out there. I think it was Arocha who once lost a year or something because he pitched 2 complete games IN A DOULEHEADER, and blew his elbow in the process. No wonder they are retiring so early.

[Agente Libre]

This is the 2,000th post in this thread. That's amazing.

It's too bad "Cubano" won't come back. His contributions are missed.