Cuban Players Defectors

[Agente Libre]

Agente, this is what I think.

If you compare Alexei's number in Cuba with other defectors (Escobar, Betancourt), his numbers are way better. He should do well in AA, AAA and MLB. Maybe MLB teams want to sign the next Mr. Universe, but there are players in MLB that are not physical specimens. Here there are a few of them C. Counsel, J. Pierre, D. Eckstein, S. Taguchi, etc.

Right, but at what position? And for how many guaranteed dollars upfront?

I'm sure every MLB team would be thrilled to sign Ramirez. I'm not saying otherwise. But when his agent is asking for Hideki Matsui dollars, or more, for a 26-year-old player with no clear position, it's not a surprise that most teams are saying, "No, thanks."

[Cubano100%]

He is asking for Kaz Matsui, Shinjo, Taguchi dollars. He can play CF, LF and
2B. I am sure if a team has an emergency at SS in a given game, he can cover there too. Wouldn't you love to have a guy who can play several positions at least as an utlity?

The scouts are saying he is good defensively at CF. MLB wants cheap labor with the Cubans not now but always through the history of the game.


What are the Marlins doing?

They do not have a CF for years and now if they move Dan Uggla to 3B won't have a 2B either. This is the perfect market for Cubans.

West coast teams always go for Mexican and Japanese players because it makes sense for them. I can't stand this Marlins. They are going to fill another AA/AAA team and sell it as an MLB team.

[Cubano100%]

By the way, former big leaguer Ariel Prieto was quoted in the book Confesiones Mas Alla del Dugout that the Japanese league has a policy of not signing Cuban defectors. I am with him on this claim. It is beyond my believe that Cuban hitters are paid pennies by MLB teams (Michel Abreu, Barbaro Canizares, Amaury Cazanas, etc) and they hit well in AA and AAA. If AAA players go to Japan and increase their power numbers, Cubans hitters that have done well in AAA should do well in Japan. Besides, a Cuban player in Japan should increase ratings due to our rivalry in international competitions. Therefore, a Japanese team could come with a 1 million offer to a Cuban player receiving pennies from MLB and go across continents.


Japan policy is reminiscing of MLB policy toward Cubans a few years back.

[Agente Libre]

He is asking for Kaz Matsui, Shinjo, Taguchi dollars. He can play CF, LF and
2B. I am sure if a team has an emergency at SS in a given game, he can cover there too. Wouldn't you love to have a guy who can play several positions at least as an utlity?

From what his agent has been saying, they are asking for Hideki/Kaz Matsui money. As for Shinjo and Taguchi, they signed for much, much less than that; maybe $3 million for Shinjo and $1 or $2 million for Taguchi.

As for your discussion of Ramirez's ability, that's precisely why MLB teams are not going crazy for Ramirez: No team is ever going to invest millions and millions of upfront, guaranteed dollars in a player who has no clear position. Utility players in MLB usually make $1 or $2 million per year on a one-year contract; not $7 million per year for three or four years.

The scouts are saying he is good defensively at CF. MLB wants cheap labor with the Cubans not now but always through the history of the game.

MLB teams certainly want "cheap labor," but we don't even know what teams are offering Ramirez, so it's too early to bash them. The bottom line is, the guy is 26 years old, he's frail, and he has no clear position.

They do not have a CF for years and now if they move Dan Uggla to 3B won't have a 2B either. This is the perfect market for Cubans.

It depends on the player. For some, it could be good, but for others, the whole Cuban-player-in-Miami might be too overwhelming.

I can't stand this Marlins. They are going to fill another AA/AAA team and sell it as an MLB team.

Ha ha ... No argument there. Jeffrey Loria is one of the worst owners in MLB history. He should be in prison for all the revenue-sharing money he steals from his team.

By the way, former big leaguer Ariel Prieto was quoted in the book Confesiones Mas Alla del Dugout that the Japanese league has a policy of not signing Cuban defectors. ...

This is true. Japanese teams will not sign Cuban defectors under any circumstances. I believe the Japanese Leagues and/or the government of Japan has an agreement(s) with Cuba about this. It's shameful, but no one ever says anything about it.

[Cubano100%]

Texas Rangers signed LHP Yennier Sardinas to a minor league contract. Sardinas was a poor hitter in Cuba and now is trying to make it as a pitcher. These are his numbers as a hitter in Cuba.


Series AB H AVE 2B 3B HR SLU RBI BB K Fielding AVE
3 66 14 212 0 0 1 258 2 3 27 989

[Cubano100%]

Agente:

Alexei Ramirez is a good CF. Already, some scouts have said they were impress by his defensive abilities in CF.

[Mischa]

If AAA players go to Japan and increase their power numbers,

That's quite incorrect. Many AAA players do far worse in Japan. See Mitch Jones, Andy Green, Adam Hyzdu or any of the other busts who pass Japan through every year.

[J.P]

This is true. Japanese teams will not sign Cuban defectors under any circumstances. I believe the Japanese Leagues and/or the government of Japan has an agreement(s) with Cuba about this. It's shameful, but no one ever says anything about it.

I remember Agente brought this up long time ago.

[Cubano100%]

That's quite incorrect. Many AAA players do far worse in Japan. See Mitch Jones, Andy Green, Adam Hyzdu or any of the other busts who pass Japan through every year.


Lets research this topic. The following players have increased their power numbers going from AAA to Japan.

2007 Japanese team rosters

Gregory Mark LaRocca
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/greg-larocca.shtml


Alex Cabrera
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Alex-Cabrera.shtml

Karl Derrick Rhodes
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Karl-Rhodes.shtml


Alex Ochoa
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/O/Alex-Ochoa.shtml


Super veteran Damon Hollins maintained his power numbers
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/Damon-Hollins.shtml

Tyrone Woods
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/W/Tyrone-Woods-1.shtml

Jose Ortiz
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/O/Jose-Ortiz.shtml

Benny Agbayani
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Benny-Agbayani.shtml

Jose Fernandez
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/F/Jose-Fernandez.shtml


Jose Lopez and Rich Short played in Japan in 2007 too. Short did not do bad.

Japanese in AAA

Kaz Matsui was a slugger in Japan. How about in AAA?
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Kazuo-Matsui.shtml

Norihiro Nakamura lost power coming to AAA from Japan.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/N/Norihiro-Nakamura.shtml

[Agente Libre]

Texas Rangers signed LHP Yennier Sardinas to a minor league contract. ...

Man, that guy defected almost FOUR years ago and hasn't, to my knowledge, played anywhere since 2005. Last I heard, he was screwing around as a reggaeton singer in Miami.

(That said, he does have a strong arm, although he also has an injury history that's probably the reason he hasn't played in several years.)

Agente:

Alexei Ramirez is a good CF. Already, some scouts have said they were impress by his defensive abilities in CF.

Again, no argument from me that Ramirez is a very good player. The only argument is how much money to guarantee a very skinny, if not frail, 26-year-old who probably won't have much power in MLB.

[Cubano100%]

These numbers are easy to beat for Alexi Ramirez.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/Nick-Punto.shtml

He made this:
2007 Salary: $1,800,000

[Agente Libre]

In other news, the New York Daily News, in a one- or two-sentence note, reported that Michel Abreu's papers are finally in order and he can resume playing pro ball in 2008.

[J.P]

Hopes not too late for him :ughh

[Agente Libre]

This is true. Japanese teams will not sign Cuban defectors under any circumstances. I believe the Japanese Leagues and/or the government of Japan has an agreement(s) with Cuba about this. It's shameful, but no one ever says anything about it.

I was just going through some old emails and found this sentence in an email from an official of a Japanese team in response to my inquiry about signing Cuban defectors:

The general policy is that [the] application should be accompanied by the approval of the Cuban government if he is still [a] Cuban national.

Simply stated, the Japanese Leagues don't recognize a Cuban's right to emigrate from Cuba. It's shameful.

[Dalkowski110]

"In other news, the New York Daily News, in a one- or two-sentence note, reported that Michel Abreu's papers are finally in order and he can resume playing pro ball in 2008."

Hey, trying to keep you guys abreast of where Abreu stands in the Mets org. In still other news, Omar Minaya shortly afterward announced that Abreu would likely NOT be ready for the 2008 season (he named him along with Juan Padilla, Duaner Sanchez, and I think Fernando Martinez). I'm not sure what this means, although judging from what I know of the two pitchers (Padilla was non-tendered but will likely be brought back on a Minor League contract), it means due to mitigating factors, he'll either be kept at the same Minor League level and not moved up at the beginning of the season OR start the season in short-season A or rookie ball. Padilla will probably be the AAA closer due to his having missed 2 full years due to injury. F-Mart would probably stay in Binghamton or drop to St. Lucie due to his hand injury/the Mets being careful with him. Since Abreu missed a full year, despite playing in extended ST, they may want to reacclamate him to Minor League pitching (at Savannah or St. Lucie) and then move him up mid-season.

[Cubano100%]

Fausto Alvarez wins MVP-Award at Dutch Baseball Gala

http://www.mister-baseball.com/fausto-alvarez-wins-mvp-award-at-dutch-baseball-gala/

[Cubano100%]

ESPN Deportes is reporting that the Chicago White Sox has reached an agreement with Alexei Ramirez pending the physical. The following teams showed interest in Ramirez:
Boston, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Cubs, Medias White Sox, Mets, Yankees, Minnesota and Oakland.

He will be competing for a roster spot during Spring Training.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=631187&s=bei&type=story

[Cubano100%]

Ramirez
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071221&content_id=2335994&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

[James Baldwin]

Hi Cubano100%,

Do you have a link to Alexi's career stats in Cuba? I have only been able to gather limited stats on him from '07. Thank you in advance.

[Cubano100%]

Hi Cubano100%,

Do you have a link to Alexi's career stats in Cuba? I have only been able to gather limited stats on him from '07. Thank you in advance.

I do not have a link but I have the stats:



Series AB H AVE 2B 3B HR RBI BB K Total Bases SB CS
7 2820 827 334 134 26 90 397 267 281 1283 41 32

[PLowry]

Before the IBAF "modernized" their website, you could gain access to an orange page through "Results" where you could find all box scores of all World Cups, starting in 1984, with the exception of 1986, whose box scores were not included.

I was creating the evolution of records for length of game in a World Cup, when they changed the website. I had finished 1984 in Cuba and 1988 in Italy, and was just beginning to do 1990 when they changed the website.

Now I can't find a way to find the old website's orange sheet. There MUST be a way. Does anyone know how to do it?

Thank you.

Phil Lowry

EVOLUTION OF WORLD CUP RECORDS FOR LONGEST TIME OF GAME

1984 WORLD CUP IN CUBA

2:42 – NEW WORLD CUP, WORLD CUP 9-INNING, AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Habana, Havana, Cuba – 10/14/1984 – Netherlands Antilles 13 Nicaragua 9 – 5,000 fans - finished at 4:42 PM.

3:40 – NEW WORLD CUP, WORLD CUP 11-INNING, AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 11-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Habana, Havana, Cuba – 10/14/1984 – Puerto Rico 3 Venezuela 2 in 11 innings – 5,000 fans - finished at 5:40 PM – conflicting record because the Netherlands Antilles vs. Nicaragua game is shown in the same stadium at the same time.

2:56 – NEW WORLD CUP 9-INNING AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Habana, Havana, Cuba – 10/14/1984 – Cuba 6 Italy 5 – 55,000 fans - finished at 11:56 PM.

3:05 – NEW WORLD CUP 12-INNING AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 12-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Santiago, Santiago, Cuba – 10/15/1984 – Dominican 1 South Korea 0 in 12 innings – finished at 4:35 PM.

3:01 – NEW WORLD CUP 9-INNING AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Habana, Havana, Cuba – 10/16/1984 – Italy 4 Puerto Rico 2 – 6000 fans - finished at 4:31 PM.

3:09 – NEW WORLD CUP 9-INNING AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Habana, Havana, Cuba – 10/16/1984 – Cuba 13 Venezuela 0 – 35,000 fans - finished at 11:39 PM.

2:30 – NEW WORLD CUP 8-INNING AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 8-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Santiago, Santiago, Cuba – 10/19/1984 – Taiwan 12 Dominican 2 in 8 innings – finished at 6:00 PM.

2:11 – NEW WORLD CUP 7-INNING AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Habana, Havana, Cuba – 10/19/1984 – Cuba 10 Nicaragua 0 in 7 innings – 35,000 fans - finished at 10:41 PM.

4:06 – NEW WORLD CUP, WORLD CUP 10-INNING, AND CUBAN WORLD CUP 10-INNING RECORDS – Estadio Habana, Havana, Cuba – 10/20/1984 – Netherlands Antilles 20 Italy 19 in 10 innings – 12,000 fans - finished at 5:36 PM.

1986 WORLD CUP NOT AVAILABLE ON ORANGE SHEET IN OLD IBAF WEBSITE

1988 WORLD CUP IN ITALY

2:02 – NEW ITALIAN WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORD – Firenze, Italy – 8/23/1988 – Italy 10 Spain 0 in 7 innings – finished at 6:47 PM.

2:12 – NEW ITALIAN WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORD – Bologna, Italy – 8/24/1988 – Puerto Rico 12 Netherlands 0 in 7 innings – finished at 6:12 PM.

2:30 – EQUALED WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORD; NEW ITALIAN WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORD – Grosseto, Italy – 8/24/1988 – USA 28 Spain 0 in 7 innings – finished at 6:30 PM.

2:35 – NEW WORLD CUP 7-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORDS – Firenze, Italy – 8/24/1988 – Taiwan 14 Canada 2 in 7 innings – finished at 6:35 PM.

3:10 – NEW WORLD CUP 9-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Bologna, Italy – 8/24/1988 – Japan 7 Nicaragua 0 – finished at 12:10 AM in the early morning of 8/25.

3:30 – NEW WORLD CUP 9-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Grosseto, Italy – 8/25/1988 – Puerto Rico 5 Taiwan 3 – finished at 7:30 PM.

3:49 – NEW WORLD CUP 11-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 11-INNING RECORDS - 8/26/1988 – Rimini, Italy – South Korea 2 Italy 1 in 11 innings – finished at 12:49 AM in the early morning of 8/28.

3:37 – NEW WORLD CUP 9-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Firenze, Italy – 8/27/1988 – Puerto Rico 4 Japan 1 – finished at 12:37 AM in the early morning of 8/28.

3:36 – NEW ITALIAN WORLD CUP 10-INNING RECORD - 8/28/1988 – Reggio Emilia, Italy – Canada 7 Puerto Rico 4 in 10 innings – finished at 7:36 PM.

2:55 – NEW WORLD CUP 7-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORDS – Reggio Emilia, Italy – 8/28/1988 – USA 15 Netherlands Antilles 5 in 7 innings – finished at 11:55 PM.

2:38 – NEW WORLD CUP 8-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 8-INNING RECORDS – Parma, Italy – 8/29/1988 – Cuba 7 Puerto Rico 6 in 8 innings – finished at 11:38 PM.

2:55 – EQUALED WORLD CUP 7-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 7-INNING RECORDS – Torino, Italy – 9/4/1988 – Taiwan 12 Japan 1 in 7 innings – finished at 11:55 PM.

3:40 – NEW WORLD CUP 9-INNING AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Novara, Italy – 9/4/1988 – Canada 9 Nicaragua 7 – finished at 12:40 AM in the early morning of 9/5.

4:09 – NEW WORLD CUP, WORLD CUP 9-INNING, AND ITALIAN WORLD CUP 9-INNING RECORDS – Parma, Italy – 9/6/1988 – USA 6 Taiwan 3 – finished at 1:09 AM in the early morning of 9/7.

[Dalkowski110]

The Mets have signed left-handed pitcher Saydel Beltran to a Minor League contract. With Eddie Camacho being bumped up to AAA and Ryan Cullen's status in limbo, he has a pretty good shot at being the primary lefty reliever in AA ball (Kevin Tomasiewicz is NOT an impressive pitcher and will likely stay in St. Lucie).

[Mijail in Africa]

Hi to everybody,
I am a cuban fan who lives in South Africa and love reading all your coments.
Maybe someone can tell me what happened to B. Canizares, he was playing in Mexico and doing very well. Suddenly he is not in any roster.
Also worried about Maels Rodriguez who was suppose to pitch in the nicaraguan league but so far not a single news.
Just before I say bye, I want to mention Yobal Duenas, he was suppose to do something at least in the minors, but was dumped from the mexican league while was doing great and never again holded a bat in his hands.
All this guys from Pinar del Rio need to go for guts lessons at Orlando el duque Hernandez academy.
dont you think so
jejejejejeejejejejeejejejejejeje
see you soon guys

[Agente Libre]

Hey Mijail ... Unfortunately, all of the players you mentioned left Cuba past their prime. Duenas has to be in his mid to late 30s now, so he's too old to have a meaningful pro career. The same is true for Canizares, who not only defected late, but then wasted two or three years before his U.S. career started.

As for Maels, he suffered at least two serious injuries before he left Cuba (shoulder and back), and it's highly unlikely he'll pitch in MLB. Every six months he announces another "comeback," but then he disappears again. If he was really healthy, he would at least be pitching in a winter league or a U.S. independent league, but he hasn't pitched anywhere in years. In fact, I don't believe he has pitched a single professional inning since he defected in October 2003.

[Mijail in Africa]

Hi, Agente
I agree with you about yobal, maels, but I am not sure about canizares, I think that he is still young enough you should give him at least the benefit of the doubt, look at Fausto Alvarez, yeah,yeah
the doutch league is very weak but he still surprised us all.........
Canizares is younger than 30, that is for sure, so he still has at least 5 years more to surprise us.
Wait and you will see, I also hope a lot from Alexei Ramirez, he is young, very fast, he is got power, even though his muscle volume is far less than it could be and he was given a golden opportunity just after defecting.
VIVA EL BEISBOL CUBANO dentro y fuera de Cuba.

[Dalkowski110]

'Nother update for the Mets...Michel Abreu finally got his visa issues sorted out and will indeed be ready for the start of the season. Because Brett Harper opted for free agency, this means Mike Carp will likely be bumped up to AAA New Orleans and Abreu will start at AA Binghamton as opposed to either St. Lucie or Savannah as originally was planned.

[Cubano100%]

Hi, Agente
I agree with you about yobal, maels, but I am not sure about canizares, I think that he is still young enough you should give him at least the benefit of the doubt, look at Fausto Alvarez, yeah,yeah
the doutch league is very weak but he still surprised us all.........
Canizares is younger than 30, that is for sure, so he still has at least 5 years more to surprise us.
Wait and you will see, I also hope a lot from Alexei Ramirez, he is young, very fast, he is got power, even though his muscle volume is far less than it could be and he was given a golden opportunity just after defecting.
VIVA EL BEISBOL CUBANO dentro y fuera de Cuba.

Hey, Man. I sent you a PM. Click on Private Messages at the top right corner. You will remember me after you read your PM.

I hope you are doing well.

[Agente Libre]

Mijail -- Are you sure Canizares is under 30? I thought he was in his early to mid 30s. It seemed like he played a long time in Cuba before defecting in '03 or '04.

[J.P]

I'm not sure Cañizares is under 30 neither.

[CameronCrazies]

Would like to hear your input on this guys.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/01/14/are-the-times-achangin-el-duque-thinks-so/

[Mischa]

I'm not sure Cañizares is under 30 neither.

The IBAF gives his birthdate as 11/21/74, making him 33. See http://www.baseball.ch/2003/t/ic/rosters/icrosCUB002.htm

MILB.com claims 11/21/79 http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Barbaro%20Canizares&pos=1B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=498568

Sounds like another guy who changed his birthdate after leaving Cuba.

[emanuelsaavedra]

okay, so what happened with alexei ramirez, i though that he was about to sign with the white sox, but i dont see him in their web page, or anywhere on mlb.com did he finally sign with the white sox or whats going on, update please?

[Mijail in Africa]

hi, guys I can not put my hands in the fire for Canizares age, but I have been checking him since he was playing for metropolitanos and he was very young at that time, though a little bit lazy concerning hard training and a very bad defensive catcher. I think he is 27 like he claims, maybe 29 but defenitely not 33.
Cubano thank you very much for inviting me to a wider and more updated meeting, I am loving it.
see you around
Ramirez signed with the Sox, he is just waiting to pass the medicals, but I havent heard a word about.

[Agente Libre]

I'm sure IBAF got their ages from the Cuban Baseball Federation. While they could be wrong, I doubt it.

[J.P]

Agente, while defectors have been known to shred some years off their age, the Cuban federation has been known to add some years to it, in order to lesser scouts' interests in the players. If I had to guess, off the top of my head, without having this information, I would had sais Cañizares was 30-31, but I wouldnt put it past me that he is 33 indeed.

[Agente Libre]

I've heard the rumor about the Cuban Baseball Federation adding years, but I'm not sure if it's true or if it's just one of the excuses various defectors have used after getting caught lying about their ages.

I might be wrong, but I believe there are penalties for giving incorrect info. to IBAF (or the IOC, etc.). Nothing ever surprises me when it comes to Cuba, but it seems unlikely Cuba would risk penalties by lying to IBAF.

[Agente Libre]

Anyway, it's really a moot point. Canizares is "old" -- by MLB standards -- whether he is 27 or 30 or 33. He will need to have a great spring training, and some luck, in order to force his way into the Braves' plans.

[J.P]

I've heard the rumor about the Cuban Baseball Federation adding years, but I'm not sure if it's true or if it's just one of the excuses various defectors have used after getting caught lying about their ages.

I might be wrong, but I believe there are penalties for giving incorrect info. to IBAF (or the IOC, etc.). Nothing ever surprises me when it comes to Cuba, but it seems unlikely Cuba would risk penalties by lying to IBAF.

I was friends with a high profile atlhete(not a basebal player), in Cuba, who told me that the Cuban Baseball Federation in some instances took years off the ages of players like Kindelan, Pacheco, Mesa, Linares, etc, in order to not make it look like they kept sending "dinosaurs" to play against college kids.

[Mischa]

hi, guys I can not put my hands in the fire for Canizares age, but I have been checking him since he was playing for metropolitanos and he was very young at that time, though a little bit lazy concerning hard training and a very bad defensive catcher. I think he is 27 like he claims, maybe 29 but defenitely not 33.
Cubano thank you very much for inviting me to a wider and more updated meeting, I am loving it.
see you around
Ramirez signed with the Sox, he is just waiting to pass the medicals, but I havent heard a word about.

No way Canizares is 27. According to the 2005 Cuban Baseball Guide, he had already played 10 seasons. By your calculations, he would have been 15 when he started playing.

[Mischa]

I was friends with a high profile atlhete(not a basebal player), in Cuba, who told me that the Cuban Baseball Federation in some instances took years off the ages of players like Kindelan, Pacheco, Mesa, Linares, etc, in order to not make it look like they kept sending "dinosaurs" to play against college kids.

So in other words, the conspiracy theories claim two opposite lies.

[Cubano100%]

hi, guys I can not put my hands in the fire for Canizares age, but I have been checking him since he was playing for metropolitanos and he was very young at that time, though a little bit lazy concerning hard training and a very bad defensive catcher. I think he is 27 like he claims, maybe 29 but defenitely not 33.
Cubano thank you very much for inviting me to a wider and more updated meeting, I am loving it.
see you around
Ramirez signed with the Sox, he is just waiting to pass the medicals, but I havent heard a word about.

Francisley Bueno and Brayan Pena have a better chance to make the team out of Spring Training. Matanzas Roberto Alvarez played in A ball last year. Yunel Escobar will be the Braves regular SS and probably the leadoff or second hitter in the line-up in 2008.

Have you check your Private Messages?

[J.P]

So in other words, the conspiracy theories claim two opposite lies.

Well, all these players mentioned above, were sure not to defect, so there was really no point in adding years to their ages, but there was reason to substract some. Again, this was told to me by a high profile atlhete (World Champion, Olympic team member, etc), I wont reveal his name, as he is still in Cuba.

[J.P]

Would like to hear your input on this guys.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/01/14/are-the-times-achangin-el-duque-thinks-so/

Hey, I just found out through our spanish forum, that the documentary was only aired in Habana, and it was presented by a panel, that included former players, who reminded the viewers that the defectors in the documentary are traitors who sold themselves for money betraying their country.

[Cubano100%]

When the Cuban Mafia is gone from power, some defectors will go back and we are going to have ceremonies to honor their accomplishment in the USA.

[Richard]

How much longer must I wait before I see a multitude great Cuban ballplayers playing MLB? Cuba will be just as prominent as the DR I believe.

[jalbright]

How much longer must I wait before I see a multitude great Cuban ballplayers playing MLB? Cuba will be just as prominent as the DR I believe.

The answer to that question depends on political events that, even if we could see what would happen when and accurately assess their impact, we'd be talking about issues which are quite separate from the baseball-only discussion we are supposed to limit ourselves to. I'm sure it won't occur for next season. Beyond that, it's very unclear to me how long it will be before Cuban players have open access to the majors and vice versa, and I don't think anyone can give more than an educated guess, and many will come up with something less well informed than that.

[Mischa]

Well, all these players mentioned above, were sure not to defect, so there was really no point in adding years to their ages, but there was reason to substract some.

So the Cuban government hires prophets who can tell which guys will defect and which won't. It then adds years to the ages of the former and subtracts them from the latter. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how they would be that good at predicting the future. And if they knew who was going to defect, then they would have simply not put them on the national team in the first place.

[J.P]

So the Cuban government hires prophets who can tell which guys will defect and which won't. It then adds years to the ages of the former and subtracts them from the latter. I'm sorry but I just don't understand how they would be that good at predicting the future. And if they knew who was going to defect, then they would have simply not put them on the national team in the first place.

I understand it sounds weird to you, but if you had lived in Cuba you would understand, while they cant tell 100% for sure who is going to defect, the players I mentioned: Victor Mesa, Lourdes Gourriel, Antonio Pacheco, Orestes Kindelan, Omar Linares, Ermidelio Urrutia, etc, were 99.99% non defectors. Cubano, and others here can attest to that.

[J.P]

The 2008 Prospect Handbook will arrive shortly in Durham, and those of you who ordered it directly from us will have it soon. It's packed with 903 scouting reports: the top 30 prospects per team, plus three Japanese players who signed too late to be included with their new clubs.

But wait, there's always more. When we put together the Handbook, there's always a lot of shuffling going on behind the scenes. We change our minds and write up a new prospect for the end of the list, or a trade causes changes to both clubs involved. The result is that there are scouting reports that don't make it into the book.


This year, there were 41 players who were written up but didn't make the Handbook cut. We like to call them members of "The 31st Team", and we've been presenting their reports online for the last six years.


These aren't the best players who didn't make Top 30s, but rather a random mix of prospects:

Serguey Linares, rhp, Pirates

Born: Feb. 1, 1983. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-4. Wt.: 225. Signed: Cuba, 2007. Signed by: Rene Gayo/Louie Eljaua.

A Cuban defector, Linares originally signed with the Red Sox for $460,000, but they voided the contract when he failed a physical because of a slightly torn rotator cuff caused by a bone fragment in his shoulder. The Pirates signed him for $125,000 last February, but he was late getting to spring training because of visa problems in Venezuela, where he now resides, and immediately was sent to minor league camp. Pittsburgh felt Linares was worth the risk because his fastball had been clocked as high as 98 mph during his days in Cuba, though his 5.59 career ERA there was far less impressive. He rarely showed a great heater in his American debut, as his fastball usually sat at 86-88 mph. He occasionally ran it up to 93 mph when he got into tight spots. The fastball is still Linares' calling card at this point, as his curveball and changeup are rudimentary and need plenty of work. With substandard stuff, he's often reluctant to challenge hitters and issues too many walks. Spring training will determine where Linares begins this season. Ideally, he would move up to Double-A. But if he doesn't show increased velocity and better command of his secondary pitches in spring training, he'll return to high Class A.

[elmerelwood]

I have been doing some research on Cuban League history and have had problem finding information on positions played by players. On the baseballcuba site it gives stats for offense but does not tell the positions played. For example Omar Linares is known for being a great third baseman but I was wondering how many games he played at shortstop in his career. Also I know Orestes Khindelan played some games at catcher, 1st base and outfield but would like to know how many at each. I was looking at the old IBAF website to get some info on positions played by national team members but now that is gone. Peter Bjarkman's book fails to give this information either. Does anyone know where to get the positions played?

[Cubano100%]

I have been doing some research on Cuban League history and have had problem finding information on positions played by players. On the baseballcuba site it gives stats for offense but does not tell the positions played. For example Omar Linares is known for being a great third baseman but I was wondering how many games he played at shortstop in his career. Also I know Orestes Khindelan played some games at catcher, 1st base and outfield but would like to know how many at each. I was looking at the old IBAF website to get some info on positions played by national team members but now that is gone. Peter Bjarkman's book fails to give this information either. Does anyone know where to get the positions played?



Send an email to the www.beisbolcubano.cu and ask them the same question. Tell them you are writing an essay about Cuban players to share it with your University teacher and classmates. Maybe, they reply to you.

[J.P]

Someone in the Spanish forum says he saw Maels Rodriguez and he told him that he had just signed a Minor League deal with the Mets.

[J.P]

Amaury Cazañas Marti has been invited to Spring Training by the Cards.

[yanks07]

Sandy Ojito left the country..according to Radio COCO

[Agente Libre]

Sandy Ojito left the country..according to Radio COCO

Did they say when? And was it just Ojito?

This seems like another guy who decided to leave well after his stock had peaked. Ojito had a couple of great years, but then injuries (??) and younger guys (Gil, Despaigne, et al.) seemed to displace him.

[Dalkowski110]

"Someone in the Spanish forum says he saw Maels Rodriguez and he told him that he had just signed a Minor League deal with the Mets."

I have NOT heard this. As mentioned, the Mets picked up Saydel Beltran to probably relieve at Binghamton and Michel Abreu is going to be back (finally...), but the only time I've heard Maels Rodriguez connected to the Mets was in 2004 and 2005, when he tried out for the team and didn't make it. Perhaps he's merely trying out again?

[yanks07]

Radio COCO says that Sandy Ojito is not longer on the team (Industriales) because he left the country...that's all

[Agente Libre]

Does anyone know when Ojito made his last appearance? I wonder if he left during the All-Star break or if he's been gone awhile.

[J.P]

"Someone in the Spanish forum says he saw Maels Rodriguez and he told him that he had just signed a Minor League deal with the Mets."

I have NOT heard this. As mentioned, the Mets picked up Saydel Beltran to probably relieve at Binghamton and Michel Abreu is going to be back (finally...), but the only time I've heard Maels Rodriguez connected to the Mets was in 2004 and 2005, when he tried out for the team and didn't make it. Perhaps he's merely trying out again?

Well, the person in the Spanish foum claims to be getting this info from Maels himself; he is now saying the Mets have a contract in place for him, but Maels wants to try out for other teams see if he can get a better offer. BTW, Michel Abreu has officially been invited to Spring Training.

[J.P]

New defector Sandy Ojito:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c183/qbanboy82/cuban%20players/Sandy20Ojito20IND.jpg

[Dalkowski110]

Knew about Abreu being invited to ST, but thanks anyway for the heads up...

"he is now saying the Mets have a contract in place for him, but Maels wants to try out for other teams see if he can get a better offer."

Simply put, you can't do that. Nobody can. No baseball player can be signed to a contract and try and seek other contracts. This was settled LONG ago with the interesting case of a phenom pitcher who never panned out with the Dickensian name of Ebenezer Beatin. Beatin tried signing SEVEN contracts at once in 1888, collecting them in the same way you describe Rodriguez (signing one at a time and then trying to get a better offer). But a few of the teams that signed Beatin were furious with the two league offices (NL and American Association). While the two leagues rarely agreed on, well, anything, they did agree that what Beatin was doing was unacceptable and forced him to sign his original contract.

Now, Rodriguez COULD be entertaining offers from the Mets and several other teams in an attempt to create a bidding war, but that's pretty far away from actually having a signed contract in-hand.

[Cubano100%]

Former Industriales and Yankees catcher Michel Hernandez has been invited to the Pirates Spring Training.

[J.P]

Knew about Abreu being invited to ST, but thanks anyway for the heads up...

"he is now saying the Mets have a contract in place for him, but Maels wants to try out for other teams see if he can get a better offer."

Simply put, you can't do that. Nobody can. No baseball player can be signed to a contract and try and seek other contracts. This was settled LONG ago with the interesting case of a phenom pitcher who never panned out with the Dickensian name of Ebenezer Beatin. Beatin tried signing SEVEN contracts at once in 1888, collecting them in the same way you describe Rodriguez (signing one at a time and then trying to get a better offer). But a few of the teams that signed Beatin were furious with the two league offices (NL and American Association). While the two leagues rarely agreed on, well, anything, they did agree that what Beatin was doing was unacceptable and forced him to sign his original contract.

Now, Rodriguez COULD be entertaining offers from the Mets and several other teams in an attempt to create a bidding war, but that's pretty far away from actually having a signed contract in-hand.

What I meant was the Mets have already made him an offer, but he is going to do tryouts for other teams in hopes of getting a better deal; remember, I'm just kind of translating over here what someone in our spanish forum is reporting, for once, it seems kinda weird to me too that someone will wait until Spring Training opens to start trying out...

[Dalkowski110]

"it seems kinda weird to me too that someone will wait until Spring Training opens to start trying out..."

If true, he's likely been getting in shape since November or December and trying to maximize his fastball velocity (didn't he throw 100 mph at one point?). It was down in 2004 and 2005, but maybe he thinks he's done enough conditioning to give it another try. If the Mets offered him something, it's probably because his fastball broke 90 mph (wasn't able to do so in the '05 tryout, dunno what speeds he reached in '04). It wouldn't be the first time a guy kept holding out out this late because he thought he could ramp up his fastball velocity a bit more.

[J.P]

The person saying all of this claims that Maels is hitting 94-95.

[J.P]

Harold Martinez, came from Cuba when he was 3, is now considered the #7 high school and #14 overall(college and high school) in the nation:

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/story/415711.html

[Dalkowski110]

Color me a tad skeptical. Unless he has absolutely no control whatsoever or throws as flat as a pancake, the Mets or someone else would have signed him already if he were throwing that fast.

[J.P]

Color me a tad skeptical. Unless he has absolutely no control whatsoever or throws as flat as a pancake, the Mets or someone else would have signed him already if he were throwing that fast.

I'm with you.

[J.P]

Cuban born, University of Miami first baseman Yonder Alonso is a Preseason All American:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/college/awards/all-america-teams/2008/265573.html

[CameronCrazies]

You may have noticed this already, but Francisley Bueno got an invite to big league camp. He won't make the team out of camp, but I bet this is a great confidence boost for him to be so close. He really finished strong last season.

Have you seen this website? http://www.elcamajan.com/indexm.php?mod=art_intro&id_cat=17

That's Bueno and Canizares in 2006 compliments of yours truly.

[J.P]

Have you heard anything about Cañizares?? I last heard he got injured in Mexico and thats why he couldnt finish the season...

[Agente Libre]

Has Sandy Ojito surfaced anywhere? He doesn't seem like a big MLB prospect but I thought there would be news about him by now. It's a little odd that the only news of his defection has been in the Cuban press.

[CameronCrazies]

Have you heard anything about Cañizares?? I last heard he got injured in Mexico and thats why he couldnt finish the season...

No, I haven't...If I see him when I'm in Orlando next week I'll let you know.

[J.P]

According to this:

http://www.diariodigital.com.do/articulo,24908,html (in spanish)

Donell Linares belongs to the Atlanta Braves.

[Dalkowski110]

And Michel Abreu opens up ST for the Mets with a semi-walk off homerun! The Mets were trailing the University of Michigan 4-2 in the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs when Michigan closer Adam Abraham walked Mets shortstop Anderson Machado on four pitches. That brought up Abreu, who had come in for Carlos Delgado. With a 2-1 count, he smashed a fastball to straight-away centerfield. It bounced off a high wall (but above the line necessary for a homerun) and was initially called a double, but then the umpires reversed the call and Abreu trotted around the basepaths. The Wolverines then ran out of pitchers, so the game had to be called a tie.

Hopefully he hits well enough to get the AAA 1B job at the very least.

[Cubano100%]

And Michel Abreu opens up ST for the Mets with a semi-walk off homerun! The Mets were trailing the University of Michigan 4-2 in the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs when Michigan closer Adam Abraham walked Mets shortstop Anderson Machado on four pitches. That brought up Abreu, who had come in for Carlos Delgado. With a 2-1 count, he smashed a fastball to straight-away centerfield. It bounced off a high wall (but above the line necessary for a homerun) and was initially called a double, but then the umpires reversed the call and Abreu trotted around the basepaths. The Wolverines then ran out of pitchers, so the game had to be called a tie.

Hopefully he hits well enough to get the AAA 1B job at the very least.

He also had a double.

[Cubano100%]

Alexei Ramirez

The White Sox has been impressive with his fielding ability. He played SS during the first intrasquad game. He was a CF in Cuba and play some 2B for the Cuban National team.

Taking BP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mltFT2oUmEc



Intrasquad Game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4E6c3PBwXY

[Cubano100%]

Amaury Cazanas Marti hit a grand slam
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2008_02_27_slbbbc_slnmlb_1

Yoslan Herrera started for the Pirates
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2008_02_27_macbbc_pitmlb_1



Michel Abreu
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2008_02_27_nynmlb_detmlb_1


Yunel Escobar and Francisley Bueno
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2008_02_27_ugebbc_atlmlb_1

[Cubano100%]

Alexei Ramirez went 4-5 with 2 doubles in his first game in the USA. In contrast, Kosuke Fukudome got hit by a pitch, walked and had a hit. Somehow, Fukudome ended in MLB main page and Ramirez can be found only in the White Sox page despite a better debut. This is a joke!

[Cubano100%]

Alexei Ramirez
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou_M6AAPsdk

[CameronCrazies]

Bueno control: Francisley Bueno will likely begin this season in the Minors. But the 27-year-old Cuban left-hander might find himself in the Atlanta bullpen this year. Cox has been impressed with his control.

Bueno, who has primarily been used as a starter in the Minors, has registered 180 strikeouts and issued just 48 walks in the 212 innings he's completed during his professional career. The negative against him is that he's surrendered 228 hits during that span.

In his 108 2/3 innings at Mississippi last year, opponents hit .293 against him. Left-handed hitters produced a .325 (40-for-123) batting average. He surrendered a .281 (93-for-331) batting average to right-handers.

Those numbers are ugly, but it's not doubt he could be a LOOGY as early this season

[J.P]

I heard Cañizares and Vladimir Nuñez made their spring debuts for the Braves last week...

[J.P]

This is in today's ESPN's Page 2, and the writer really reflects how I felt when I heard the news about Duke's windup.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/index

Pitchers, especially aging ones, routinely tinker with their windups -- it's part of the game. But there's something sad about the news that Orlando Hernandez is doing away with his signature high leg kick. The move may extend his career, but it marks the end of El Duque.

There was always a mystique about El Duque, a sense of mojo that made him a sort of magic man. It wasn't just that he'd arrived on a tiny boat from a country most of us aren't allowed to visit, or that his real age was a matter of conjecture, although those both added to his aura. In his very first game with the Yankees, he caught a comebacker, found the ball lodged in the webbing of his glove, and ended up throwing the entire glove to first base to retire the hitter. Toss in his unorthodox training methods, his baffling array of arm angles, and that blooper eephus pitch he'd occasionally lob, just to show he could do it, and you knew you were dealing with something unique. That's why his nickname never felt gratuitous or overhyped -- El Duque wasn't a player, he was a character.

The leg kick not only bolstered this mystique, it symbolized it, providing a convenient visual shorthand for everything that made El Duque El Duque. He didn't just raise his left leg impossibly high (think it's easy? Try doing it yourself), he did it with an emphatic jerk that brought his right heel off the ground, and looked away from the plate for good measure. For most players this would be a career's worth of idiosyncrasies; for El Duque, it was more like a signifier, a road sign that read, "Welcome to El Duqueville, population one."

That's why it's such a drag to hear that he's abandoning the high kick. And the explanation behind it is even worse -- going up on the ball of his right foot was aggravating a painful bunion. That's pretty much the definition of a legend being punctured right there: One day you're the magic man, the next you're felled by a bunion.

Orlando Hernandez will probably win about a dozen games this year, but El Duque is no more. I'll miss him.
-- Paul Lukas

-He is wrong when to it comes to the story of El Duke tossing the glove to first to get the runner out, this indeed happened, but not in his first game, which was against Tampa, it was in a game against the Mets, and the hitter was fellow defector Rey Ordoñez.

[Dalkowski110]

I wouldn't worry about El Duque's windup. Believe it or not, his new mechanics in theory put a LOT less stress on his shoulder and elbow. Even if he's throwing his fastball in the 80's, so long as he locates it well with good movement and also keep throwing the breaking pitches with the same movement, he should be fine.

In other Mets news, Michel Abreu was reassigned to Minor League camp after going 2 for 14. He seemed like he was on an upswing (the final two games he WAS making good contact and walked twice), but unless he tears up AAA, I wouldn't expect him to see much action in the Majors this season.

[Cubano100%]

Alexei Ramirez has been killing Cactus League pitching. I think he has earned a spot with the White Sox.

[stejay]

The best Cuban players in the MLB have been Canseco, Palmeiro, Bobby Estalella Sr, Orlando Hernandez, Livan Hernandez, in my view.

[J.P]

It loks like Alexei Ramirez has made the team straight out of Spring Trainning:

Richar to start season on disabled list
Incumbent's injury, Uribe's status puts second base in flux
By Scott Merkin / MLB.com

PHOENIX -- The continuing saga surrounding the White Sox second-base situation took another turn Thursday, when the team announced Danny Richar would be placed on the 15-day disabled list to start the regular season.
Richar had an MRI exam and a CT scan done on Wednesday, as a result of chronic back pain suffered during Spring Training, which led to the diagnosis of a stress fracture near his first left rib. The team's incumbent second baseman will be out of action for four to six weeks.

With Richar's extended absence, rookie Alexei Ramirez basically has made the team. His official capacity will be decided over the final few days in Arizona.

"Is he on the roster? Yes. The thing is how many games can he play?" said manager Ozzie Guillen when asked about the Cuban émigré before Thursday's first official Cactus League contest against the Dodgers. "We're going to sit down and see how many at-bats he can get. We're talking about that.

"Whether it's at second base or not second base. Everything is about playing time. My thing is, I don't care if this kid sits for 10 days if he's going to help us win.

"Development? I'm not going to develop my players for someone else. I already learned my lesson," Guillen added. "Jeff Torborg developed players [in Florida], and he got [beat up]. Jack McKeon won. To me, development, that's for the Minor League system. You bring the best guys. Me and [general manager] Kenny [Williams] have talked, and we want the best guys at every position."

Barring any sort of unforeseen move, Ramirez appears to be the leading candidate to start at second. Juan Uribe remains in the picture, starting Thursday at Phoenix Municipal Stadium, but the waiver situation so heavily reported Wednesday involving Uribe still could play a role in his future.

Guillen said that he spoke on Wednesday with Uribe, who was a little confused by his somewhat precarious status. Guillen explained to his veteran infielder the difference between being released and being put on waivers, making sure that Uribe, above anyone else, knew what was taking place.

"That's all I can do for him," said Guillen. "Juan is a different guy. He's nervous and gets kind of worried about it. I told him, 'You're in the lineup [Thursday], and that's all I can tell you.'





"I don't care what the fans say or [the media] think about it. To me, it's more important that in Uribe's mind it's clear. It's hard to be a player, it's hard to play with that. That's why we explained to him the situation."

Shortly after the news broke on Wednesday, Guillen sent a text message to Williams, and Williams confirmed that Uribe was not being released. But when Guillen was asked whether Uribe would start against the Cubs on Saturday in Mesa, as scheduled, he was a bit more non-committal.

"He will start today," Guillen said. "Right now I don't have any clear information."

Pablo Ozuna actually will get the call at second base for the March 31 opener in Jacobs Field, hitting leadoff against Cleveland's C.C. Sabathia. But whether it's Ozuna, Ramirez or even Uribe playing up the middle on a more regular basis, Guillen doesn't seem worried about the talent to fill this position.

"Right now, I just worry about who is going to be my last guy out of the bullpen," Guillen said. "That's my real concern."

[Cubano100%]

The best Cuban players in the MLB have been Canseco, Palmeiro, Bobby Estalella Sr, Orlando Hernandez, Livan Hernandez, in my view.

Adolfo Luque, Luis Tiant, Mike Cuellar, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Tony Perez, etc.

[Cubano100%]

Former Holguin Hounds Maikel Peña outfielder is almost ready to sign. He only needs a special permmit from OFAC. MLB gave him the OK. According to his agent Jamie Torres, eight teams have asked for private workouts with him.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=659764&s=bei&type=story

[Dalkowski110]

"Adolfo Luque, Luis Tiant, Mike Cuellar, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Tony Perez, etc."

Can I add Camilo Pascual? My dad saw him throw a 5 hit shutout vs. the Yankees in 1958 after his beloved Giants and Dodgers had left. We still have the scorecard from that game.

EDIT: Wait, sorry, no, that was one of the four or five my dad lost from the 1958-1961 Yankees. I was looking for it so I could scan it and then Dad told me. Darn.

Camilo's brother Carlos was no slouch, either. Despite never appearing in the Majors after his 19th birthday (and oddly doing really well...I wonder why he never got a second look), he did well in Cuban winter ball, the Pacific Coast League, and after Castro's revolution, he went to Venezuela and played winter ball there (up through 1967 or 1968, I believe, when he became a two-time-pennant-winning manager).

[Agente Libre]

Former Holguin Hounds Maikel Peña outfielder is almost ready to sign. He only needs a special permmit from OFAC. MLB gave him the OK. According to his agent Jamie Torres, eight teams have asked for private workouts with him.

http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/news/story?id=659764&s=bei&type=story

That article says he's 21, but according to other info., he debuted in the 42nd National Series back in 2002. Seems like he's more in the range of 23 to 25 years old.

On another topic, I need the career National Series stats for Yuniesky Betancourt, Kendry Morales, Yunel Escobar and Alexei Ramirez for a project I'm working on. (I need their full offensive lines: AB, R, H, 2B, 3B, HR, RBI, K, BB, HBP, SB, CS, OBP, etc.) If anyone can post these stats, or point me to a site that has them, that would be great. Thanks very much.

[Cubano100%]

Bert Campaneris too.


As for Carlos Pascual, sometimes you need a little bit of luck too. I just can't wait for the Cubans to be able to compete freely again. The small percentage of Cuban players have done well despite having to put with so many obstacles. I am referring to post 1959. Look at the following active position players:

Juan Miranda: 2008 Spring Training
Michel Abreu: 2008 Spring Training
Amaury Cazanas: 2008 Spring Training
Barbaro Canizares (a catcher switching positions): 2008 Spring Training
Yuniesky Betancourt: MLB
Yunel Escobar: MLB
Kendry Morales: MLB
Alexei Ramirez: MLB straight from Cuba
Yohennis Perez: AA ball
Yunesky Sanchez: did not play much in Cuba. A ball
Michel Hernandez: reached MLB
Roberto Alvarez: A ball
Donell Linares: just signed with Braves
Maikel Peña: probably will sign soon.



Out of 12 players, 5 reached MLB and 4 more were invited to SpringTraining.

[Dalkowski110]

"Michel Abreu: 2008 Spring Training"

Fortunately, he will be on the New Orleans Zephys this year. That's better than Binghamton, which is where the Mets initially had him penned in for. Despite the 2-for-14 slump, Howard Johnson (Mets hitting coach) thinks he started to shorten up his swing (thus getting more contact but less power). They actually may move him to left field or something since the Mets have been particularly demanding about power output from their Minor League 1B's (the reports last year about converting him to catcher turned out to be a joke, for what that's worth, not garbled information...just goes to show you you can't take EVERYTHING a second hand source feeds you too seriously).

[J.P]

"Adolfo Luque, Luis Tiant, Mike Cuellar, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Tony Perez, etc."

Can I add Camilo Pascual?

Camilo would had been a sure HOF had he pitched in a better team.....and lets also not forget about the first Latino to win the MVP award: Zoilo Versalles.

[Dalkowski110]

Aurelio Monteagudo is largely forgotten today, but he flat dominated in the Mexican League. Dunno if you could call him a Quad A player, but he didn't translate that success consistently in the Majors. He had severe control problems, but could reportedly throw as fast as Nolan Ryan (teamed with him in 1973 and that's what the guys who caught both of 'em thought).

Then there was Tony "The Ultimate LOOGY" Fossas. His nickname pretty much summed up what he did, and he certainly did have a unique nickname. Then again, I wouldn't exactly call Tony "forgotten."

A guy I would call largely forgotten is Napoleon Reyes. Only two full seasons, though he did pretty solid in both of them. He seemed just about impossible to strike out (or walk, unfortunately). He really shined in winter ball, though.

[J.P]

Talk about forgotten, how about Tomas de la Cruz, who was only able to pitch one year in the majors, at age 32, and then was deemed too dark, but his numbers that one year are kind of nice. By the way, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Leo Cardenas, 5 time all start SS.

[Dalkowski110]

One guy my Dad and my friend Al (who got me into Cuban baseball in the first place and was born in Pinar del Rio in 1947) had pegged for a star was pitcher Marcelino Lopez. And he actually wasn't too bad in 1965 and 1966 with extremely lousy California Angels ballclubs (he had some control problems, but he threw HARD). But then in 1967 he tore his rotator cuff. Today, a guy like that would have TJ surgery and go right back into into the starting five. Sadly, in 1967 it basically meant that if your career wasn't over, then your career as an effective starter was regardless over.

Two other guys not mentioned that I think deserve mention: Jose Cardenal and Jose Azcue.

Another largely forgotten guy today would be catcher Miguel "Mike" Gonzalez (1912, 1914-1921, 1924-1929, 1931-1932), whose career spanned three decades and who was the first Cuban born MLB manager (a few games in 1938 and 1940). He was supposedly also the originator of the term "good field, no hit."

[J.P]

But then in 1967 he tore his rotator cuff.

I didnt know this, I always wondered why the recession in his numbers.

Another "forgotten one" is Tony "Haitiano(the Haitian)" Gonzalez, who in 1967 finished second in the NL with a 339 batting average. Conrado Marrero didnt get to the bigs until he was 38 but when on to pitch 5 more years until he was 42, going with a career record of 39-40 (with the lowly Senators), 3.67 ERA, and completing 51 of the 94 games he started.

[Agente Libre]

One guy my Dad and my friend Al ... had pegged for a star was pitcher Marcelino Lopez. ... But then in 1967 he tore his rotator cuff. Today, a guy like that would have TJ surgery and go right back into into the starting five. ...

Actually, Tommy John surgery is for the elbow. Rotator cuff (shoulder) injuries remain almost as deadly to a pitcher's career in 2008 as they were in the '60s.

[Dalkowski110]

Oh man...as a guy who loves analyzing pitching...that one's about as embarassing as walking up to the chalk board and writing "2+2=5." :hide:

Regardless, pitchers today CAN rebound from torn rotator cuffs with ROTATOR CUFF SURGERY (I still feel embarassed about that one...). The success rate isn't that high and you generally miss a year, but your chances are better than they were in 1967.

[Cubano100%]

The below is a bilingual site about Cuban players maintained by a fellow Cuban in Chile.

http://terrenodepelota.blogspot.com/

[J.P]

I know this is a little off topic, but since we were talking about him, cubano posted this in our Spanish forum about the Lopez twins (basketball players for the Stanford Cardinals)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/sports/ncaabasketball/26stanford.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=ncaabasketball

She later married and divorced Heriberto Lopez, a baseball player from Cuba who was the cousin of Marcelino Lopez, who pitched in the major leagues.

[J.P]

In a sad note, Preston Gomez is in critical contidion after accident:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=mlb&id=3314751

[Dalkowski110]

Damn, a shame about Preston Gomez. He'll be in my thoughts and prayers. A decent manager who was given horrid teams to manage (look at his AAA managerial record and the numbers speak for themselves). The guy who got me into Cuban baseball, my Dad's friend Al, had probably the most priceless quote in defense of Preston Gomez...

"Simply because you're the best AAA manager doesn't mean the Astros or anyone else should expect you to contend with Don Wilson, Larry Dierker, a few cadavers, and some fans who looked good in their local softball leagues."

[Dalkowski110]

Well, looks like El Duque is back to using his old leg kick, despite the bunion. So far he's pitching scoreless ball to the Orioles.

EDIT: The SECOND I post this, the Orioles score a single run, though El Duque got out of the inning.

[Cubano100%]

Number 10 in Chicago taking BP: That was Omar Linares number I believe. He used to play for the same team, Pinar del Rio Green Sox.


http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3288838&n8pe6c1

[Cubano100%]

Johan Limonta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johan pinch ran and DH'ed last night in the Mariners split squad game vs San Diego. Limonta went 2-2 at the dish with 2 rbi's and scored a run ! This is the first I've seen of him this spring.




Thank you Rennie Stennett,

[J.P]

We can now officially add Alexei Ramirez to the list of Cubans who have played in the bigs :dance

[Cubano100%]

RHP Sandi Ojito may be playing in the Miami league.

[Agente Libre]

So Ojito finally surfaced in Miami, or is that still at the rumor stage?

Wherever he is, Ojito has a tough time ahead of him. At his age, it would be foolish to waste too much time trying to become a free agent. On the other hand, he's probably looking at a low six-figure, or even five-figure, bonus in the draft, and he'll be pushing 40 before he's eligible for free agency. Hopefully he gets his career started quickly and has some good luck.

[Martin Dihigo]

[QUOTE=Cubano100%;1148827]Johan Limonta

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Johan pinch ran and DH'ed last night in the Mariners split squad game vs San Diego. Limonta went 2-2 at the dish with 2 rbi's and scored a run ! This is the first I've seen of him this spring.

QUOTE]

Cubano, happy to know that Johann played in a SS game, but the Mariners sent him to High Desert (High A) to start the season - that's where he finished up last year. He's off to a great start though: 7 for 12 (.583) with 3 doubles and 3 RBIs. Hope the Mariners move him up quickly, it's his thrid year with the organization and he's hit everywhere he's been.

[Cubano100%]

Kenny Rodriguez pitched great in USA debut.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Rodriguez%2C%20K%20%28W%2C%201-0%29&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=524289

[J.P]

This came out on BA on 9/2/07 I believe, but I just ran into it:

"Cuban native Yusdel Tuero literally phoned it in. The pitcher called Chicago Cubs director of player development Oneri Fleita and told him he wasn't going to pitch anymore. It's believed Tuero headed to Miami to start a new life"

-Anybody knows whats going on?? thats kind of weird.

[Agente Libre]

That's very weird. Tuero was pitching in Cuba as of the spring of '07, then he suddenly showed up in So. Fla. and made himself eligible for the draft, and then he was pitching professionally in June. (In fact, I believe he had the fastest turnaround ever from defection to signing a pro contract.) I'm sure he signed for no money, so maybe he just found a better job in Miami. It's kind of tough for a defector to live on a $1,000/mo. minor league contract.

[Cubano100%]

04/13/2008 Alvarez, Roberto Voluntarily Retired from the Braves.

[CameronCrazies]

From the Astros official site:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080419&content_id=2552863&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou&partnered=rss_hou

[Cubano100%]

From the Astros official site:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080419&content_id=2552863&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou&partnered=rss_hou


Barbaro Canizares, Francisley Bueno and Vladimir Nunez are having a good season for the Braves AAA.

[emanuelsaavedra]

im i the only one that thinks that Alexei Ramirez should be sent down to AAA? I mean i want this guy to succeed more than anyone else, i grew up watching this guy play in Pinar del Rio, and played pick up baseball with him in my neighborhood a couple of times. But seriously, he seems to have a real problem hitting curveballs, and he is not going to get better riding the bench for the Sox. So they should probably send him to AAA, and have him play everyday there for a couple of months and when he's really ready, and Uribe gets on a hot streak, try trading Uribe and bringing Alexei up to play second. Hes got the talent to be a starting 2B for a while, but hes not going to get better on the bench

[Agente Libre]

I agree re: Alexei Ramirez. After Guillen made such a big deal about "The Cuban Missile" making the team and all that, the way he is using Ramirez is stupid. He should either be starting 4-5 games per week (at least) or sent to Triple-A so he can get at-bats and game experience. (It's even dumber how Ramirez "won" a starting job and then lost it after going 1-for-8 in his first two games against the reigning Cy Young winner and a 19-game winner. Apparently, Ramirez was "The Cuban Missile" on Opening Day, and then a dud just two days later. Very dumb.)

[Dalkowski110]

Agreed. He needs to adjust to playing every day again. By benching a player who needs this adjustment (and it seems that's exactly what Alexei needs), you're just going to throw him off and hurt his development. Play him or option him.

[emanuelsaavedra]

There is something that I dont understand about the way that the Sox dealt with Ramirez, hes a good player, but he is young and not necessarely ready for the bigs. Everyone n MLB knows that the game in Cuba and the US is different, that the cuban players need a little bit of time to get used to the game here. So i would have had him all through Spring Training and then shipped him off to AAA for a couple of months. Seeing his atheletic capacity i think that if he was given a couple of months in AAA, he could massacre a few pitchers in there and get better in defence, then his confidence would be by the roof and hed be ready to come and be a great player after the All Star game

[emanuelsaavedra]

I wanted to run something by you guys. I was listening to a radio station the other day and they were saying how the Marlins are winning and cannot seem to put people on the stands. I was thinking, they are the only team in a major hispanic market that the fans do not have a player to associate with. In Boston and New York you have Puerto Rican and Dominican Players, the California teams have good mexican players that the fans can associate with (Garciaparra and Adrian Gzles.) Miami is full of cubans and there is not a good cuban player for them to go watch (no Luis Gonzales doesnt count as cuban to me). All along however there are guys like Kendry who were superstars in Cuba and are sitting on the bench not playing. I mean, i think that by now the Halos are ready to trade him if the right offer comes by, and the Marlins have the players to sacrifice. Just think how many more people would go to the stadium if they could go watch the ex cleanup hitter of the cuban national team. Anyways please let me know that you guys think

[Cubano100%]

I could care less about the Miami Marlins.

[Agente Libre]

Aside from the fact the Marlins have one of the worst owners in the history of professional sports, it would take a special Cuban defector(s) to be able to sign with the Marlins straight out of Cuba and be able to deal with not only baseball, but the attention/scrutiny of being a Cuban defector on a Miami team.

Livan Hernandez had a ton of growing pains, distractions and off-field issues when he was with the Marlins, and it seems the Marlins have largely avoided defectors ever since. (It could, however, just be a manifestation of their extremely cheap owner.)

[emanuelsaavedra]

i understand that it takes a lot to put up with some of the people in Florida, specially when it comes to politics. But what im thinking is, you said that it would take a special player to make that impact in Miami. Well, i dont know if you guys lived in Cuba, but when he was there, Cuba was under Kendrymania like i had never seen before. I mean he was IT when it came to cuban baseball and hes still young enough to where everyone who is less than 50 and has some knowledge of cuban baseball knows him. What i mean is when Livan was with the Marlins, you saw cubans supporting the marlins, politics aside, they had someone they knew to cheer for. Right now, at least i talk to cubans in Miami, and they seem to not care for the marlins. Like i said, having him would give the people there someone to identify with, also i think it was stupid that they did not go for Ramirez when he was available. Just think, it would have been exciting having an infield five years from now that had Kendry, Alexei, and Hanley, also it would have been a cool batting order. But to a certain extent i dont know everything that im talking about, im just a baseball fan. Please give me some feedback and let me know what you all think, like i said you guys know more about this than me.

[Agente Libre]

There's no question that putting some Cubans on the Marlins would mean more people in Miami would care about the Marlins. It just seems that the Marlins are afraid to invest big money in Cubans because the players might not adjust well to the city, politics, etc. (In other words, it's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem.)

[emanuelsaavedra]

its a shame that the marlins are such a cheap team and that some people in miami, not the majority, but some, have to bring politics into everything. Because for once its a shame to see kendry tear up players in AAA and then not get an at bat in 2 weeks in the majors, and seconds, it would be a treat to see kendry hitting home runs over that wall in pro player stadium. I kinda miss cuban baseball and nothing would remind you of a night at the latinoamericano more than to see kendry hit a mammoth jack in miami. Please just please trade kendry, have some mercy on his soul.

[emanuelsaavedra]

do you guys think that a team would have to give a lot to get kendry, i mean, if you are someone that has a lot of decent prospects, you can put two of those and not have to give your big farm guy. I just cant see why people are not moving on kendry when he has proven that if given a change he can be a great hitter, and when you are a great hitter you dont need great defence. I mean, kendry is just rotting in the angels and he has no real chance to make it into the lineup any time soon, so if i were the angels i would want to trade him.

[J.P]

There's no question that putting some Cubans on the Marlins would mean more people in Miami would care about the Marlins. It just seems that the Marlins are afraid to invest big money in Cubans because the players might not adjust well to the city, politics, etc. (In other words, it's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem.)


I think the Marlins are afraid to invest big money period; and I wouldnt blame the owner so much, I mean, we won the Series in 03, Loria resigned Lowell and Castillo, then he added LoDuca and Delgado, we were in the wild card race, and still people wouldnt show up. Then the fire sale, still, we were a big surprise in 06 with the young team, but guess what? Fans still wouldnt show up, and the fact that the parking and concessions revenue from the few fans that do show up goes almost entirely to Huizenga doesnt help either!

[emanuelsaavedra]

Well, there are a few reasons why people dont show up to marlins games.
A. Life in Miami is expensive, when you are paying over $1000/month for an apartment, and im not talking about a luxurious apartment, then you would not want to spend a lot of money in gaoing to baseball games.
B. To the price of life add the fact that it is not cheap to go to a Marlins game. I live in oklahoma and everytime i go to Miami i go to a couple of Marlins games and its about $40 to get decent seats. If you have a family of 4, that is $160, then again you are paying +$1000 for your house (simple math)
C. To the price of life and tickets you have to add, the fact that there are no players that would interest the people in Miami. Seriously, my entire family and all of my friends are great baseball fans and they all live in Miami, and they all tell me the same thing, why spend all that money to go to the stadium to see players that i dont know or ever heard of. If you get players that the cuban fans have seen and learned to love, then they are going to be more willing to drop all that cash to go to the game, otherwise, the stadium is going to be empty, yes it will fill up during the playoffs, cause its the play offs, but otherwise, youll have an empty stadium.

[J.P]

Well, there are a few reasons why people dont show up to marlins games.
A. Life in Miami is expensive, when you are paying over $1000/month for an apartment, and im not talking about a luxurious apartment, then you would not want to spend a lot of money in gaoing to baseball games.
B. To the price of life add the fact that it is not cheap to go to a Marlins game. I live in oklahoma and everytime i go to Miami i go to a couple of Marlins games and its about $40 to get decent seats. If you have a family of 4, that is $160, then again you are paying +$1000 for your house (simple math)
C. To the price of life and tickets you have to add, the fact that there are no players that would interest the people in Miami. Seriously, my entire family and all of my friends are great baseball fans and they all live in Miami, and they all tell me the same thing, why spend all that money to go to the stadium to see players that i dont know or ever heard of. If you get players that the cuban fans have seen and learned to love, then they are going to be more willing to drop all that cash to go to the game, otherwise, the stadium is going to be empty, yes it will fill up during the playoffs, cause its the play offs, but otherwise, youll have an empty stadium.

But life being expensive is not the owners fault, and the price of the tickets is about the same in every MLB stadium; and if you cant identify with Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez, and with a winning team, then my friend, you simply are just not a very good baseball fan. I do would like the Marlins to have more cuban players (but lets be realistic, its not like good cuban players are plenty to be had out there), I wouldnt want the Marlins to trade Hanley for Yunel Escobar, or Cabrera for Kendry(I mean hypotetically, we all know Cabrera is long gone). I identify with the Marlins as my hometown team, will always support them, wether they are good or bad, and if they are winning, I dont care if the SS or the # 1 starter were born in outer space, if they happen to be cubans, that would only be a plus.

Also, do you really think the Yankees sign more Dominicans because of the Dominican population in NY?? No, they just go after the best talent.

[emanuelsaavedra]

No, I am not claiming that the Marlins should have traded Cabrera or Hanley for guys like Yunel or Kendry, that would be stupid for me to do. Guys like Hanley or Olsen are the cornerstones of your franchise. What i am claiming is that
I understand that the price of tickets are about the same as what they are in the rest of the MLB, but they have no problem selling tickets and the marlins do, if you cant sell tickets at the current price, then you should lower it, its better to have some money than no money. Second, you cannot compare the fan base of the Yankees to that of the Marlins, When you are a small market team, you have to give people a product that they like and would be willing to pay money to see. I dont know if you are hispanic, but if you are, then you will understand that cubans really do not care for dominican players, or viseversa. I want them to succeed, specially if they are on my team, but i would rather see a cuban player (me being cuban) and the same goes for a dominican.
What i mean to say is that the marlins should use a couple of decent (not super prospects) but decent, and put together a package that would interest the Angels, and go after a guy like Kendry, because Yunel is unreachable right now. Besides, Kendry is not the most expensive player, i dont know how much he earns, but i cant imagine it being too much.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Like i meantioned, what you do is get players that will draw fans. When you get people into the stand, they will also fall in love with guys liek Hanley or Olsen, but the Marlins need something to draw people to the stadium. I never meant to claim that cornerstone players should be traded. But bringing in a popular and also good player could only help the Marlins. Besides, i personally think that Kendry should be an upgrade from Jacobs in first, nothing against jacobs, but i see more future in kendry's bat, and when you have a good bat, defence can be less than stellar.

[J.P]

Hey, I'm as Cuban as they come, and so are most of my friends who follow the Marlins, and like I said, if we have a superstar like Hanley, we couldnt care less where he was born, like I said, it would only be a plus if he was Cuban. In any sport, not just baseball, a winning team should be enough to put people on the stands, and if to that you add that you have (or had), two of the most amazing young players in the game, if you dont go to the stadium, you just dont care. If you give me the excuse of how far Dolphin Stadium is, no roof on rainy days, Miami being a poor city, etc, then thats different, but I think its a little ingenous to say the Marlins dont draw fans because they got no Cuban players; how soon do us Cubans forget that there are no Cubans on the roster when they reach the playoffs uhn? Or to go to the streets when they win? Or to go to the Championship parade?? Besides, you make it seem like decent Cuban prospects are right there for the taking, there are only a few, and it would be really dumb for the Marlins to enter into a bidding war with the rich clubs, throwing money around for an unproven player, when we cant even resign our good players!

[Dalkowski110]

Actually...can I bring your attention to a trade the Marlins made with the New York Mets in early 2007? The Marlins sent left-handed starters Jason Vargas and Adam Bostick to the Mets for two flamethrowing right-handed relievers: Matt Lindstrom (who is of course a pretty good reliever)...and Henry Owens. There are rumors that one of the reasons the Marlins requested Owens, a mechanical trainwreck (ever seen his windup and/or follow-through?) whose pitching mechanics actually made him physically extremely prone to injury, was because he had a Cuban mother. Owens was made into the favorite for the closer role before he even threw a pitch in a Marlins uniform. And while he started out as the closer, his horrid mechanics caught up with him and he's barely pitched (albeit very effectively WHEN he's pitched).

Henry Owens once touched 100 mph on a radar gun in Norfolk. Of course that was a factor (and probably the bigger factor). But it should have been obvious to even a subpar pitching coach like Rick Kranitz that there were severe flaws in Owens' delivery (and him repeatedly hitting the DL in the Minors with shoulder and elbow related problems should've sent up some warning signs...). Okay, while I'm the first guy to admit the name "Henry Owens" doesn't exactly conjure images of a Cuban ballplayer, Aaron Heilman was on the block at the same time and had only a marginally higher asking price. Heilman appeared in 82 games with the 2007 Mets. And while he hasn't been all that good this year, he's probably a guy who merely needs a change of scenery.

Regardless, the Marlins went with Owens and had Matt Lindstrom not been acquired in the same deal, the trade would have turned out very poorly, even if Jason Vargas and Adam Bostick have been unproductive for the Mets. Perhaps they were going for Lindstrom? According to Larry Beinfest at the time, Lindstrom was a throw-in and basically an afterthought not even being considered for the MLB roster at first. Henry Owens was the definite target, and almost certainly for a mixture of his four-seam fastball as well as his heritage. So it would seem to me they are trying to get some Cuban-descended (if not first generation) ballplayers onto their roster (Luis Gonzalez and Robert Andino being the other two...to say nothing of Cuban-born Fredi Gonzalez managing the team, though unless you're Casey Stengel, no manager on the planet will help his team's attendance figures).

[J.P]

But Mike Lowell is a much bigger name than Gonzalez(at this pointr in his career),Owens, and Andino, and he didnt get the fans to show up, we even had three Cuban born pitchers in the roster at one point in 02 (Nuñez, Tejera, and Izquierdo) and the fans didnt show up; so I think the Marlins knew that if Lowell and the others didnt get the Cuban fans to come out, Owens, Andino, and a 40 yr old Luis Gonzalez are not, so I have to disagree with you on this one Dal.

One footnote, Andino wasnt even in the 25 man roster. In the last inning of the last exibition game against the Yankees, CF Alejandro de Aza got hurt, so they moved Amezaga to the OF, therefore opening up a roster spot for an utility INF (the role Amezaga was to fill)

[Dalkowski110]

"But Mike Lowell is a much bigger name than Gonzalez(at this pointr in his career),Owens, and Andino, and he didnt get the fans to show up, we even had three Cuban born pitchers in the roster at one point in 02 (Nuñez, Tejera, and Izquierdo) and the fans didnt show up; so I think the Marlins knew that if Lowell and the others didnt get the Cuban fans to come out, Owens, Andino, and a 40 yr old Luis Gonzalez are not, so I have to disagree with you on this one Dal."

I see your point...it's not lost on me...but IMO the Marlins ownership is just simultaneously disconnected from its fanbase AND banging on the same door they've been banging on for years with regards to Cuban ballplayers (first or second generation) in hopes someone will open it. Thus, they're going to try and have Cuban ballplayers on the roster no matter what. It's not like this hasn't happened in the past with different variations on a theme. Look at some of the later Expos teams (including some that Jeff Loria actually owned) that tried repeatedly bringing in Canadian ballplayers. Or the "home-grown" New York Mets of the late 1970's where they tried bringing in as many players as they could from the tri-state area.

[superculov]

The real problem is that there is no real Cuban superstar in MLB since the departure of Jose Canseco and Rafael Pailmeiro. The Cuban American baseball players pipeline from Miami has gone dry. The days of the Fernandez, Tartabull, Palmeiro, Canseco, Destrade are long gone. Heck, they can't even produce a Fabregas for heaven sake. The fact is if the Marlins can sign a legitimate Cuban superstar they would pack them in......remember the old days of Fernandez and Livan ? What we are getting out of Miami and Cuba are mediocre players. The little Cuban talent that hails from South Florida is snatch up by big market teams and quite frankly the Marlins are too cheap to compete. As far as the Cuban talent in the island, no one leaves the island in their prime. Livan and Kendry are the only ones I know and major League teams are quite aware that the best players stays in the island. With the new president in Cuba many foresee improved relations between both country and hopefully that may loosen the noose on Cuban baseball players. Cuba has enough talent to produce the best baseball players in the planet as they did during the late 50's and the 60's. To answer your question the Marlins should seek a trade with the Angels and the White Sox for Ramirez and Morales these are the two best talents that have come from Cuba since the Hernandez brothers.

[emanuelsaavedra]

please i am not trying to be a fanatic of cuba, like i said, i am a baseball fan. What i am saying is that even though the marlins won in 03 and the people showed up to the parade and the stadium for the playoffs, it wasnt like in 97, you know what i mean, the atmmosphere around the stadium was different in both times. I dont know if you ever went to a game at the Latino in the finals of the Serie Nacional, being there, the fans were dilusional, it was a surreal experience, thats what the stadium was like in 97, it was electric, you could feel it walking in. It was not the same in 03, the fans were still happy cause the team was winning but it wasnt the same enthusiasm. The point that i am trying to make and aparently am not making is the fact that with livan back in 97, the fans felt like they were throwing every pitch with him. I know that sound poetic and it sounds dumb. But the fans felt like he had gone through the same trials that they had coming from cuba. Therefore, they could familiarize better with him. That is what guys like hanley or Dontrelle could not achieve in Miami, they couldnt get that from the fans. Like i said, its not that i am fanatical about cuban players, because i understand the state and talent of these players. can you see what i mean?

[emanuelsaavedra]

For example, i grew up in Pinar del Rio, i grew up going to the stadium and watching contreras and linares play and win championships. When you were in the stadium in the postseason, there was something in the air, it was surreal. When the White Sox had that run in 05, i felt like i was a kid back in Cuba watching Contreras pitch against Industriales. That excitement was back it was just surreal to just watch the game. That was what a lot of cuban fans felt like in 97 with the marlins. I think that Kendry could seriously hit 30 hrs a year, and that would only add to a very good team. He would not be the star of the team, just like Livan wasnt back in 97, but he would be what would tie the team to the community. back in 97, the fans loved Alou and Bonilla, i loved them, but what brought me to the Marlins and to loving those guys was Livan. The marlins could use Kendry as that selling point. I love guys like Konerko, Buehrle and Crede, but what got me to loving them was contreras. You see what i mean?

[emanuelsaavedra]

the thing with lowell and gonzo is the fact that they are cuban, but they arent. A lot of these new cubans in miami had never heard of canseco or palmeiro untill a couple of years ago when they got to the us. They (lowell, gonzo) dont know what its like to play in a dirt field in cuba, and they didnt grow up playing against industriales or in the serie nacional. Even though they are cuban and you root for them, you dont do it with the same passion that you would for kendry. Do you understand me? I am not trying to be a pain in the butt, but do you see my point?

[superculov]

I understand what you are talking about but my point still stands. The best Cuban players stay in Cuba. We have never seen the magic of a Kindeland, Linares, Pacheco,Valdez,Lazo and we never will until the political differences are solved.

BTW, the players mention above are worthy of HOF inductions, it is my hope that once the political differences are ironed out they'll be recognized as other greats have been.

[J.P]

please i am not trying to be a fanatic of cuba, like i said, i am a baseball fan. What i am saying is that even though the marlins won in 03 and the people showed up to the parade and the stadium for the playoffs, it wasnt like in 97, you know what i mean, the atmmosphere around the stadium was different in both times. I dont know if you ever went to a game at the Latino in the finals of the Serie Nacional, being there, the fans were dilusional, it was a surreal experience, thats what the stadium was like in 97, it was electric, you could feel it walking in. It was not the same in 03, the fans were still happy cause the team was winning but it wasnt the same enthusiasm. The point that i am trying to make and aparently am not making is the fact that with livan back in 97, the fans felt like they were throwing every pitch with him. I know that sound poetic and it sounds dumb. But the fans felt like he had gone through the same trials that they had coming from cuba. Therefore, they could familiarize better with him. That is what guys like hanley or Dontrelle could not achieve in Miami, they couldnt get that from the fans. Like i said, its not that i am fanatical about cuban players, because i understand the state and talent of these players. can you see what i mean?

Dtrain was putting fans in the seats waayyyy before the playoffs started in 03, but anyways, it seems we have come up to the same conclusion, the star player being Cuban would only be a plus; I dont really think that the Marlins getting Kendry(for example) will improve their attendance all that much, maybe for the first few games after acquiring him it will, but not in the long run, fans here still wont show up, and I think its just beacuse of a combination of everything, bad ownership in the past, poor city, rainy season, the stadium being too far, etc, but I dont think that not having cuban players is one of the main reasons.

[emanuelsaavedra]

yes, like i said, kendry would not run the show, but he would be a hughe plus, he would perhaps be the spark to get the show going. Anyways, even though i love the marlins and i want them to win, i know that for once, they will for some weird reason not make a run at kendry. Again, hes not that expensive and should be fairly easy to acquire without giving up the future. It is just a shame that there is no quality cuban guys in the marlins. I believe that from a business point they are letting go of too big a market. Actually i think that the marlins blew it this year. They could have gone after livan and marketed him as the second coming of the team's favorite son. Besides hes not doing too shabby in Minnesotta. You know, it would have added drama to the season in South Fla. Oh, well another season of empty stadiums which wont fill up unless the team makes the playoffs. I guess that the enly hope that i have to watch good quality cuban baseball lies in Chicago.

[emanuelsaavedra]

However i think that the marlins have to go after the right cuban player. The reason why i mention kendry so much is because i think he would be the right guy. Alexei can be a great addition (even though the chisox are not letting him go anywhere) but he wouldnt have the impact that kendry would i think. You have to understand, kendry was to cuba what ripken and jeter are to the us. He was worshiped in cuba, and those images are still fresh in the minds of cubans. Besides he went from superstar to underdog in the angels. If he came to miami and batted after hanley and put up 30/100 people would see him as the superhero that came back to the top, making fans fanatical with him. At least i know i would, and there are a lot more guys like me in South Fla.

[superculov]

However i think that the marlins have to go after the right cuban player. The reason why i mention kendry so much is because i think he would be the right guy. Alexei can be a great addition (even though the chisox are not letting him go anywhere) but he wouldnt have the impact that kendry would i think. You have to understand, kendry was to cuba what ripken and jeter are to the us. He was worshiped in cuba, and those images are still fresh in the minds of cubans. Besides he went from superstar to underdog in the angels. If he came to miami and batted after hanley and put up 30/100 people would see him as the superhero that came back to the top, making fans fanatical with him. At least i know i would, and there are a lot more guys like me in South Fla.


30/100 are unrealistic goals for Kendry. I live in California and I've been following him ever since the Angels sign him and I don't think he has the pop to hit 30 homers in the Major Leagues level yet. He's definitely a .300 hitting but he'll be lucky to break 20 homer in his first full year. He was in competition with Casey Kotchman late last year and he lost that battle. Casey is a better fielding first baseman and he has turn out to be a power hitter which is a pleasant surprise for the Angels, nevertheless I believe that Kendry would put up better stats than Kotchman in a course of 162 games.

[Cubano100%]

30/100 are unrealistic goals for Kendry. I live in California and I've been following him ever since the Angels sign him and I don't think he has the pop to hit 30 homers in the Major Leagues level yet. He's definitely a .300 hitting but he'll be lucky to break 20 homer in his first full year. He was in competition with Casey Kotchman late last year and he lost that battle. Casey is a better fielding first baseman and he has turn out to be a power hitter which is a pleasant surprise for the Angels, nevertheless I believe that Kendry would put up better stats than Kotchman in a course of 162 games.


One has to look only to the minor league stats of both playres to realize that Kendry has the greater potential and the better numbers. Kotchman has recieved more playing time than Kendry in the big leagues. He did not loose the battle, the Angels manager handed it to Kotchman. There are other players in the Angels active rosters that have no business to be in front of Kendry at this point. Quinlan and Rivera are two of them.

[J.P]

yes, like i said, kendry would not run the show, but he would be a hughe plus, he would perhaps be the spark to get the show going. Anyways, even though i love the marlins and i want them to win, i know that for once, they will for some weird reason not make a run at kendry. Again, hes not that expensive and should be fairly easy to acquire without giving up the future. It is just a shame that there is no quality cuban guys in the marlins. I believe that from a business point they are letting go of too big a market. Actually i think that the marlins blew it this year. They could have gone after livan and marketed him as the second coming of the team's favorite son. Besides hes not doing too shabby in Minnesotta. You know, it would have added drama to the season in South Fla. Oh, well another season of empty stadiums which wont fill up unless the team makes the playoffs. I guess that the enly hope that i have to watch good quality cuban baseball lies in Chicago.

I agree with you about Livan, but remember, the highest paid player in the team makes 2.25 millions, Livan makes double that. Let me make something clear too, I would love to see Kendry or other Cubans in a Marlins uniform, but the fact that they are not, wont make me follow the team any less. Yes, Livan had a great impact in 97, but do you think that if the team was bad fans would had shown up? I dont think so, I think that it has to begin with a winning team, and then if you add a charismatic figure like Livan in 97 or the Dtrain in 03, things take off (attendance wise). Also, remember that the fan base is not only made up of cubans, as a matter of fact, you can divide us cubans into three groups: us(the ones who grew up watching Industriales battle Pinar, Santiago, Villa Clara), the ones that have been here for 40 years (and couldnt care less about the Cuban baseball rivalries other than Almendares-Habana), and the ones who came really really young or were born here to Cuban parents(they can actually identify more with Lowell, Andino, etc); so I dont think that throwing a Kendry in the mix will have a long term effect on attendance, not unless the team is in the race come September.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Sorry, let me try to answer a few different posts at once here. First, i think that it would be unfair to say that kendry was given a legitimate shot to take Kotchman's job away. And i am not a kotchman hater. I think that he is a very talented player that has an all star career ahead of him. But when they brought up kendry last year, they made it clear that he came up until kotchman was healthy again. Besides, when kendry was playing full time last year he had about five bombs in a stretch of like 20-30 games. Every time that he has been given a shot to play full time, hes delivered. But hes not their guy. If he was to keep that pace that he had last year he was in pace for 40+ hrs a year. Knowing that you go through slumps and such i would predict that he could hit around 30 hrs a year. Besides, the reason why i think that he could have about 100 rbis is because he would have hanley and maybin in front of him, those two guys are going to be constantly on base. Something that i saw again in kendry that i really liked from him was the fact that he was back to his cold blood. In cuba he was a big play player, he always delivered in the clutch. Last year he got a lot of big at bats to tie or win games and he delivered. I am not comparing kendry to arod, but the reason why people say arod is overrated is because he gets 40+ hrs, but none in the clutch. You cant put a price tag on clutch hits, you either have it or not, and kendry showed me last year that he had it back. Besides that what better proof do you want to prove that he is not wanted in the angels, than the fact that he hit 350+ in spring training and they shipped him off to AAA.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I agree with you about Livan, but remember, the highest paid player in the team makes 2.25 millions, Livan makes double that. Let me make something clear too, I would love to see Kendry or other Cubans in a Marlins uniform, but the fact that they are not, wont make me follow the team any less. Yes, Livan had a great impact in 97, but do you think that if the team was bad fans would had shown up? I dont think so, I think that it has to begin with a winning team, and then if you add a charismatic figure like Livan in 97 or the Dtrain in 03, things take off (attendance wise). Also, remember that the fan base is not only made up of cubans, as a matter of fact, you can divide us cubans into three groups: us(the ones who grew up watching Industriales battle Pinar, Santiago, Villa Clara), the ones that have been here for 40 years (and couldnt care less about the Cuban baseball rivalries other than Almendares-Habana), and the ones who came really really young or were born here to Cuban parents(they can actually identify more with Lowell, Andino, etc); so I dont think that throwing a Kendry in the mix will have a long term effect on attendance, not unless the team is in the race come September.

You are right in the fact that the base is not made up of only cubans, but we have good players that can attract the other fan bases, Anibal, Hanley, Olsen, etc. The reason why i think that kendry would be a hit for cubans in miami is because of his personality. Omar Linares was a great player, and a great person too. I got to know him, and he was a great human being, politics aside, when he and my family visited, we were just friends, no politics, we were all just baseball fans. But he had a bad thing. He was shy in front of a camera. Kendry wasnt, he liked being in front of the camera, he had the jeter like personality that drew people to him. For the number of cubans who grew up in cuba (increasing daily) hes a god. For the cubans who have been here 40+ years, they want to see a charismatic cuban who "suffered" in cuba succeed, and for the cubans who grew up here they would end up liking him either because he is good, or because of pressure from the rest of the cubans. My uncle in miami who came in '61 was a big livan fan just because he came from cuba and "stuck" it to castro, my cousins who grew up here loved livan because he was cuban and they were cuban, so it was cool to like livan, and i loved him because i saw him play in cuba. That is the type of draw that i think kendry would have in miami.

[J.P]

You are right in the fact that the base is not made up of only cubans, but we have good players that can attract the other fan bases, Anibal, Hanley, Olsen, etc. The reason why i think that kendry would be a hit for cubans in miami is because of his personality. Omar Linares was a great player, and a great person too. I got to know him, and he was a great human being, politics aside, when he and my family visited, we were just friends, no politics, we were all just baseball fans. But he had a bad thing. He was shy in front of a camera. Kendry wasnt, he liked being in front of the camera, he had the jeter like personality that drew people to him. For the number of cubans who grew up in cuba (increasing daily) hes a god. For the cubans who have been here 40+ years, they want to see a charismatic cuban who "suffered" in cuba succeed, and for the cubans who grew up here they would end up liking him either because he is good, or because of pressure from the rest of the cubans. My uncle in miami who came in '61 was a big livan fan just because he came from cuba and "stuck" it to castro, my cousins who grew up here loved livan because he was cuban and they were cuban, so it was cool to like livan, and i loved him because i saw him play in cuba. That is the type of draw that i think kendry would have in miami.

Agreed, but like I said, you need a good winning team first, Kendry, or any other charismatic figure by themselves wont make the fans come out to Dolphin Stadium, thats out ugly truth.

[emanuelsaavedra]

that is why i was saying that the marlins should go after a guy like him now. Hes what 25 or 26? Now is the right time to get him and plug him into this team. This is a team that maybe not this year, but next year should make a serious run at the playoffs, and this year you give kendry a chance to mix in with these guys, so that tnext year, all together they can make a run. he'll bring in a few people now. But this is a move that you make this year banking on success for next year. I cant even imagine what dolphin stadium would look like having maybin and hanley getting on base, kendry and willingham, uggla etc bringing them home, and olsen, miller, josh, anibal, and gregg pitching. That would make for a hell of a show. I mean, i am as big a marlins fan as they come, my money is either spent on college or the marlins. But its a shame that they dont have anyone that i can REALLY follow in there. I am still going to watch them and pay for MLB.TV but it would be awesome to bring in kendry to the team

[emanuelsaavedra]

okay, so here is something that i wanted to ask you guys. Why do you think that the Angels keep holding to Kendry so much, and wont let him go anywhere. They dont plan to play him, but yet, they dont want anyone to even come close with an offer from him. The reason why i am saying this is because i have heard a few rumors that the Royals and A's had been interested in trying to get him and the Angels had killed the conversation before it even started. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this, and if there is does anyone have a logical reason why the Angels would do something like this?

[Agente Libre]

okay, so here is something that i wanted to ask you guys. Why do you think that the Angels keep holding to Kendry so much, and wont let him go anywhere. They dont plan to play him, but yet, they dont want anyone to even come close with an offer from him. The reason why i am saying this is because i have heard a few rumors that the Royals and A's had been interested in trying to get him and the Angels had killed the conversation before it even started. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this, and if there is does anyone have a logical reason why the Angels would do something like this?

The Angels hold onto Kendry because he's a good insurance policy if/when other guys get hurt, and they probably still believe he could become a starter down the road.

Remember, the Angels have invested millions of dollars in Kendry when similar young players are making $450,000 per year. They're not going to just give him away, especially to an intra-division rival like Oakland or even to a fellow A.L. team like K.C.

[emanuelsaavedra]

i understand the position with oakland, but with a team like KC who has prospects that might interest the angels, i consider it to be dumb to at least not look at the offers from other teams, specially if they are not in your division

[Agente Libre]

i understand the position with oakland, but with a team like KC who has prospects that might interest the angels, i consider it to be dumb to at least not look at the offers from other teams, specially if they are not in your division

I understand what you're saying. You just need to keep in mind that while you (and I, and a lot of other people) would like to see Kendry given a chance to be an everyday player, it's not like the Angels have him buried in Double-A. He's basically been the Angels' 26th man for 2-plus years, and teams don't trade guys like him all that often since $1 or $2 million per year is still a bargain in MLB.

[emanuelsaavedra]

well. baseball is a business, and in a business you do anything that will give you an edge, its just a shame that kendry wont be able to get playing time while there are some guys who are really struggling in their batting order like Anderson. But oh well. Somethings i wanted to ask, first of all what do you guys think about Alexei in the ML? I have had a few chances to see him play lately, and the doesnt look good at all, he looks like he is just out of it. Like i said, i like his athletic ability and i have no doubt that he will be good, but he looks shell-shocked out there on the batter's box. But he's getting a chance to play consistenly now, well see if he can get out of the slump. Lastly, how about Pinar del Rio this year!! I know that they lost to Santiago, but they came up with a GREAT playoff. No one expected them to make it anywhere, and they stunned Industriales and S. Spiritus. Man, Peraza is a beast!!!

[emanuelsaavedra]

its a shame that Peraza is so overwheight, if he could shed a few pounds and was a couple of years younger, he would be a great prospect fo the MLB. I catcher with power? That would be amazing!! Something he has to fix if he wants to consistently make it to the national team is change his celebrations. We all know that cuba doesnt like show offs and specially in positions where they might defect, and man, Peraza is a showoff everytime he hits a homer, those hands up in the air are going to keep him off the national team if hes not carefull

[superculov]

its a shame that Peraza is so overwheight, if he could shed a few pounds and was a couple of years younger, he would be a great prospect fo the MLB. I catcher with power? That would be amazing!! Something he has to fix if he wants to consistently make it to the national team is change his celebrations. We all know that cuba doesnt like show offs and specially in positions where they might defect, and man, Peraza is a showoff everytime he hits a homer, those hands up in the air are going to keep him off the national team if hes not carefull

I disagree with you. Peraza looks a lot like Prince Fielder although Prince dieted in the off season and came in at spring tanning at a trimmed 260. Peraza would not be playing catcher at the major league level he would probably play first or DH.....he's definitely a major league caliber player.

[emanuelsaavedra]

yeah, hes got the power and that is something that you cannot teach. The thing about Peraza is the fact that the fact that i think that he is not very tall. I never got to know him, but he does not look like a very tall dude on tv. So i could not see him playing first. The thing that i love about him is his swagger. He kind of embarrasses pitchers when he hits a home run with his arms in the air and all this stuff. I like that, unfortunately i dont know that officials do.

[superculov]

yeah, hes got the power and that is something that you cannot teach. The thing about Peraza is the fact that the fact that i think that he is not very tall. I never got to know him, but he does not look like a very tall dude on tv. So i could not see him playing first. The thing that i love about him is his swagger. He kind of embarrasses pitchers when he hits a home run with his arms in the air and all this stuff. I like that, unfortunately i dont know that officials do.

Prince is not very tall either, he's listed at 6 feet, but he hits the crap out of the ball just like Peraza. This Peraza looks like the real thing I love to see him defect I am sure with his power he would make someones lineup.

[J.P]

yeah, hes got the power and that is something that you cannot teach. The thing about Peraza is the fact that the fact that i think that he is not very tall. I never got to know him, but he does not look like a very tall dude on tv. So i could not see him playing first. The thing that i love about him is his swagger. He kind of embarrasses pitchers when he hits a home run with his arms in the air and all this stuff. I like that, unfortunately i dont know that officials do.

Hey, you got me confused, you called it show off in the other post, but swagger in this one ?? Anyways, other teams' pitchers are the ones who should police that, if they keep plunking the next hitter, pretty soon his own teammates are gonna get on his case to stop clowning around..

[geforce2299]

Any news on current defectors?? i heard Yamel Guevara is training with someone in Homestead for an upcoming tryout

[geforce2299]

Talk about Kendry being he 26th man in the Angels roster, looks like he has a few players a head of him right now, most recently, Sean Rodriguez, an INF from Miami of cuban parents, even though they dont compete for a position, they do for a roster spot, look for Kendry to be traded near the deadline if the Angels are in contention.

He may void remaining years of deal and go to arbitration, after 3 years of ML service, according to my source, he's currently served 1.

[superculov]

Talk about Kendry being he 26th man in the Angels roster, looks like he has a few players a head of him right now, most recently, Sean Rodriguez, an INF from Miami of cuban parents, even though they dont compete for a position, they do for a roster spot, look for Kendry to be traded near the deadline if the Angels are in contention.

He may void remaining years of deal and go to arbitration, after 3 years of ML service, according to my source, he's currently served 1.

Not only Rodriguez but also Brandon Wood and Reggie Willits two whiteboys that Scioscia loves. The problem with Morales is that he has an attitude problem, according to my sources, but who can blame him after seeing less talented prospects pass him by.

[J.P]

Johan Limonta was moved up to AA.

[Dalkowski110]

If anyone's interested in baseball cards, Limonta and Kenny Rodriguez are on the preliminary prospect checklist for 2007 Bowman Chrome (FINALLY managed to find a copy...will also feature Alexei Ramirez's first card in an MLB uniform).

[Cubano100%]

Kendry is terrorizing AAA pitching lately once again.

2 HR and 3 Doubles in the last 9 AB
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Kendry%20Morales&pos=1B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=434778

[Cubano100%]

Yunesky Sanchez has 0 errors in 25 AA games and hitting 371.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Yunesky%20Sanchez&pos=SS&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=511449

[Cubano100%]

Talk about Kendry being he 26th man in the Angels roster, looks like he has a few players a head of him right now, most recently, Sean Rodriguez, an INF from Miami of cuban parents, even though they dont compete for a position, they do for a roster spot, look for Kendry to be traded near the deadline if the Angels are in contention.

He may void remaining years of deal and go to arbitration, after 3 years of ML service, according to my source, he's currently served 1.

This is what I think about Kendry and the Angels.

Kendry Morales does not see eye to eye with Mike Scioscia. It could be the language barrier, Casey Kotchman's father relationship with Scioscia and the Angels or Scioscia wants to protect Casey Kotchman by not having Morales around the big league club.

There is no reason for Morales to be in the minors. He is better than Juan Rivera and Rob Quinlan of the world. Even though Kotchman is having a good season, I take Morales over him. He is a switch hitter with pop. Kotchman has had more oppportunities than Morales with the big club, but his numbers in the minors are inferior than Morales' numbers.

Brandon Wood is Mr. K. He gets in K in every AB.

Morales should do what others do. Instead of being a yes man and a good boy, he should complain with the Angels and become a pain in the neck asking for a trade. If you convey to your team that you do not want to be part of them, eventually they will let you go.


Morales will look great in a Mets uniform.

[Dalkowski110]

"Morales will look great in a Mets uniform."

I wish. Carlos Delgado seems completely and totally dead in the water with a combination of horrendous swing mechanics, slow bat speed, below average fielding, and a seeming refusal to acknowledge any of these. Heck, Michel Abreu would be an improvement (at least with regards to hitting...and for those thinking he's slumping, look at his very low strikeout rate and unlucky BABIP), to say NOTHING of Kendry Morales.

[geforce2299]

If anyone's interested in baseball cards, Limonta and Kenny Rodriguez are on the preliminary prospect checklist for 2007 Bowman Chrome (FINALLY managed to find a copy...will also feature Alexei Ramirez's first card in an MLB uniform).

Can you post pictures of Kenny's and Limonta's or can i see them online?
thx

[J.P]

If anyone's interested in baseball cards, Limonta and Kenny Rodriguez are on the preliminary prospect checklist for 2007 Bowman Chrome (FINALLY managed to find a copy...will also feature Alexei Ramirez's first card in an MLB uniform).

I'm not really a big fan of Chrome cards, do you know if any of them are in any other set?

[Dalkowski110]

"I'm not really a big fan of Chrome cards, do you know if any of them are in any other set?"

Unfortunately not. Your best bet would to wait until 2008 Bowman Heritage comes out. And everyone, sorry. I typed "2007 Bowman Chrome." I did of course mean "2008 Bowman Chrome."

EDIT: Didn't look close enough on the checklist, either. It also features Hassan Pena.

[CameronCrazies]

Yunesky Sanchez has 0 errors in 25 AA games and hitting 371.

I really like him as a player. He just missed hitting two homeruns during the 5 games I saw him play here in Mississippi.

In other news...Yunel Escobar has really improved in the last calendar year! He's an exciting player and watching him play for the Braves the fans have really taken to him - Have you seen Escobar's Cartel up in the cheap seats??

[Agente Libre]

Any news on current defectors?? i heard Yamel Guevara is training with someone in Homestead for an upcoming tryout

Guevara signed with Lancaster (indy league) within the last couple of days. That guy should have been a multimillionaire back in 2004 or '05 but was on the receiving end of a lot of horrible advice.

[Cubano100%]

Brayan Pena (Braves) placed in DL.

[J.P]

Guevara signed with Lancaster (indy league) within the last couple of days. That guy should have been a multimillionaire back in 2004 or '05 but was on the receiving end of a lot of horrible advice.

But its not like he is in his mid 30's, I'm surprised no one has taken a chance with him.........has he severely injured or something??

[Agente Libre]

But its not like he is in his mid 30's, I'm surprised no one has taken a chance with him.........has he severely injured or something??

Guevara has bounced from country to country and from agent to agent so often I doubt anyone really has a complete understanding of his situation or injury history. Clearly, he was hurt back in '05 when Escobar and the others went into the draft or else he would have signed back then.

The odd thing is, after almost four years, he still might not be eligible to sign with an MLB team. Now that he's back in the U.S., he might be draft-eligible.

Unless he was really hard up for the paycheck, which is entirely possible, I don't understand why Guevara would sign with an indy team one month from the draft. It doesn't seem like there's much upside to the situation. (I hope he does well, though.)

[geforce2299]

Rafael Galbizo has been released from Jamestown Jammers, Marlins Class A short season.

[Cubano100%]

Yoslan Herrera needs a promotion:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Yoslan%20Herrera&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=506648

[Dalkowski110]

You can say that again. Unfortunately, Pittsburgh is arguably the worst judge of pitching in Major League Baseball. Also, check out his groundouts/fly outs ratio. Tons of groundball outs, not a ton of strikeouts, but also few walks. Who else fits this profile? Paul Maholm, Zach Duke, Tom Gorzelanny. And the Pirates have somehow...I'm not even sure how...managed to ruin all of them. IMO, Yoslan Herrera would greatly benefit from an organizational change as well as a promotion.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Hey, you got me confused, you called it show off in the other post, but swagger in this one ?? Anyways, other teams' pitchers are the ones who should police that, if they keep plunking the next hitter, pretty soon his own teammates are gonna get on his case to stop clowning around..

well, to a point i meant both show off and swagger. I really do not have a problem with Peraza's little act. I kind of like it. The thing about it is, that i find it strange that knowing the cuban sports system where they want athletes to be robots, they allow Peraza to do this. First, the baseball commissioner will not allow pitchers to throw at guys intentionally, they dont want troubles. The only one who can throw a ball at someone when he wants is Lazo, because hes made a habit of it. On the same lines, i know that this is really old news, but why was Michel Enriquez sanctioned last year in cuba, ive heard everything from indiscipline to defection. Can anyone enlighten me?

[J.P]

Tonight in the Travel Channel:

May. 19 11:30PM

(30 minutes) Life's A Trip
Cuba: Be Part Of A Baseball Story
TV-G, CC

Andrew travels to Cuba to meet the pitcher with the all-time record for most wins in Cuban baseball history, and finds out what it feels like to stare down a man with a cannon for an arm.

--I saw the preview yesterday, the pitcher they are referring to is Pedro Luis Lazo.

[Agente Libre]

On the same lines, i know that this is really old news, but why was Michel Enriquez sanctioned last year in cuba, ive heard everything from indiscipline to defection. Can anyone enlighten me?

Enriquez got into a fight with an umpire (at a hotel, I believe) and was suspended for two years. Since a suspension that long probably would have caused Enriquez to defect, the suspension was lifted after about three months. I believe he only missed a few games at the end of the 2006-07 season and then the summer tournaments.

[Cubano100%]

well, to a point i meant both show off and swagger. I really do not have a problem with Peraza's little act. I kind of like it. The thing about it is, that i find it strange that knowing the cuban sports system where they want athletes to be robots, they allow Peraza to do this. First, the baseball commissioner will not allow pitchers to throw at guys intentionally, they dont want troubles. The only one who can throw a ball at someone when he wants is Lazo, because hes made a habit of it. On the same lines, i know that this is really old news, but why was Michel Enriquez sanctioned last year in cuba, ive heard everything from indiscipline to defection. Can anyone enlighten me?


Have you guys seen Manny Ramirez and Sammy Sosa after they hit a HR?

[Dalkowski110]

"Tonight in the Travel Channel:

May. 19 11:30PM

(30 minutes) Life's A Trip
Cuba: Be Part Of A Baseball Story
TV-G, CC

Andrew travels to Cuba to meet the pitcher with the all-time record for most wins in Cuban baseball history, and finds out what it feels like to stare down a man with a cannon for an arm.

--I saw the preview yesterday, the pitcher they are referring to is Pedro Luis Lazo."

Had some neat footage of Lazo in much better quality than the few pirated satellite Pinar del Rio games my neighbor has on tape. But...wow, even if Lazo throws 97 mph, I think the host should've looked at his walks to innings pitched ratio to realize that he wasn't going to get killed facing him. If he were facing Steve Dalkowski, Dick Weik, or Ryne Duren (or Maels Rodriguez) in their primes, I guess he'd have some cause for worry. But Lazo is the same pitcher who walked 20-some batters in 147 innings recently.

[J.P]

I didnt get to watch it, I DVRed it though, will be watching it tonight or later on this week when I get a chance.

[Cubano100%]

I didnt get to watch it, I DVRed it though, will be watching it tonight or later on this week when I get a chance.

And?


We are waiting for you to share your views. Ha, ha, ha.

[Cubano100%]

Alexei Ramirez is heating up.

8 hits in his last 19 VB. 421 ave!!!

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805172715503


http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?w=mms%3A//a1984.v10869d.c10869.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1984/10869/v0001/mlb2003.download.akamai.com/10869/2008/open/mlbam/2008/04/24/rth_nyycws_216126_400K.wmv&pid=mlb_rth&gid=2008/04/24/nyamlb-chamlb-1&mid=200804242584222&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_rth400&v=3&id=660302

[Cubano100%]

There is a rumor in Cuba that young prospect Dayan Viciedo may have left the island. Erislande Lara, a boxer that was deported from Brazil during the Panamerican games when he tried to defect, is supposed to have left with Viciedo. This is not confirmed yet.

Viciedo plays for Villa Clara Orange.

[Agente Libre]

There is a rumor in Cuba that young prospect Dayan Viciedo may have left the island. Erislande Lara, a boxer that was deported from Brazil during the Panamerican games when he tried to defect, is supposed to have left with Viciedo. This is not confirmed yet.

Most of these rumors end up false alarms, but this one makes a little more sense because of the Lara connection. If they did, indeed, leave Cuba, I wonder if it was with a boxing agent or a baseball agent.

This would also be one of the more odd defections in recent years: Lara was a free man in Brazil but basically consented to being sent back to Cuba (other Cubans who defected at the Pan Ams were granted asylum), while Viciedo spent two weeks in Mexico last summer and simply could have walked away without the need for a boat trip to Florida (or wherever).

Time will tell, I guess.

[Cubano100%]

The Brazilian police coerced Lara and Rigondeaux and sent them back.

[emanuelsaavedra]

if viciedo di indeed defect. That would be kind of a big deal. I mean, i have not kept up with him a lot. But based on what i have heard, he was supposed to be the future of cuban baseball. Was he as good as he was drawn out to be?

[Mischa]

if viciedo di indeed defect. That would be kind of a big deal. I mean, i have not kept up with him a lot. But based on what i have heard, he was supposed to be the future of cuban baseball. Was he as good as he was drawn out to be?

Considering that he's at most 20, it's still hard to tell. He hit .294/~.390/.503 in 2007-2008 and fielded .947. Sounds good but not earth-shattering; Kendry Morales had much better stats at the same age. It all depends on how he develops from here.

[Agente Libre]

The Brazilian police coerced Lara and Rigondeaux and sent them back.

That's the popular version in the U.S. but my sources in Brazil told me all those guys had to do was ask for asylum and it would have been granted, just as it was for the other Cubans who defected last year at the Pan Ams. Between the boxing promoters from Europe, the boxers getting arrested and then sent back, etc., the whole thing was very strange. Hopefully someday the full story will come out.

if viciedo di indeed defect. That would be kind of a big deal. I mean, i have not kept up with him a lot. But based on what i have heard, he was supposed to be the future of cuban baseball. Was he as good as he was drawn out to be?

Considering that he's at most 20, it's still hard to tell. He hit .294/~.390/.503 in 2007-2008 and fielded .947. Sounds good but not earth-shattering; Kendry Morales had much better stats at the same age. It all depends on how he develops from here.

I would still classify Viciedo as a prospect rather than as a ready-made major leaguer like Contreras or Alexei Ramirez. Viciedo made the All-Star game two years ago, but the league made adjustments to him and he's struggled somewhat to make adjustments himself. Part of it could just be boredom; this kid dominated Cuban and international play since he was 11 or 12.

As for the Kendry comparison, Kendry did put up better numbers at the same age in Cuba, but Viciedo is much more athletic. I don't see Viciedo becoming as non-athletic as Kendry anytime soon.

Anyway, has anyone heard anything more about this rumor? This rumor is at least two days old and this forum is the only place I've seen anything about it. It seems hard to believe a top baseball player *and* a top boxer could be gone without it getting confirmed quite quickly.

[geforce2299]

is it fair to say Yunel Escobar is a gold glover already?

[J.P]

Last rumor in the Spanish forum is that together with Dayan Viciedo also left his former Cuban Junior National Team and Villa Clara teammate, pitcher Freddy Asiel Alvarez

[Cubano100%]

Apparently, Villa Clara pitcher Alex Suarez was caught leaving.

[Agente Libre]

Apparently, Villa Clara pitcher Alex Suarez was caught leaving.

Does that update or replace the prior Viciedo/Alvarez rumor, or is Suarez supposed to be a separate deal?

[Cubano100%]

I have no idea, Agente.

[Cubano100%]

Alexei Ramirez

http://www.4shared.com/file/49127246/e2e8c57f/Alexei_Ramirez_080526.html

[Agente Libre]

I just noticed this thread is about to pass 100,000 views. Wow.

[Cubano100%]

I just noticed this thread is about to pass 100,000 views. Wow.

50,000 of those are from you. ja ja ja


It appears that Dayan Viciedo's name was removed from Remedios which is his team in Villa Clara's Provincial league. This is from a guy that talks to his father who is in Villa Clara.

[Cubano100%]

Catcher Brayan Pena claimed off waivers from Braves

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080530&content_id=2798995&vkey=pr_kc&fext=.jsp&c_id=kc

[J.P]

ggggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrr I was hoping the Marlins would get him

[Cubano100%]

Alexei Ramirez HR and two defensive gems:

http://www.4shared.com/get/49606817/3a7680c7/Alexei_Ramirez_080530.html

[Dalkowski110]

"Catcher Brayan Pena claimed off waivers from Braves"

As the old saying goes, "easy come, easy go!" The Royals DFA'ed Pena precisely one day after acquiring him in the first place.

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080531&content_id=2807900&vkey=news_kc&fext=.jsp&c_id=kc

[Cubano100%]

Alexei is making some noise.
http://www.4shared.com/get/49850745/75d2e34f/Alexei_Ramirez_080601.html



Betancourt.
http://www.4shared.com/file/49859885/af33a4f4/Yuniesky_Betancourt_080601.html



Contreras has been superb:
http://www.4shared.com/file/49608635/c0fd950/Jose_Contreras_080530.html

[Cubano100%]

Yunel Escobar
http://www.4shared.com/get/49966082/ebdbd9cc/Yunel_Escobar_080602.html

[Cubano100%]

Alexei is really hot now. He has 15 hits in his last 35 AB.

http://www.4shared.com/file/50089188/93a2e057/Alexei_Ramirez_080603.html

[J.P]

Yonder Alonso #7 to the Reds, great park for a lefthanded hitter!:applaud:

[emanuelsaavedra]

ok, so i have a question, if there is a cuban player like viciedo who is really young and good, but not proven, would there be a possibility that they could try to get a scholarship to a school (Miami Univ. for example) prove themselves in there and then go in the draft and get drafted high, like in the first round? Will the NCAA allow this or not, or is it just that the players want to get paid faster. Cause if they could do this, it would be a great deal, you get all expenses paid for a year or two, you get to play ball and make a name and then get drafted high. Sound like a good deal, and with their talent, most cuban players should have no issue getting a scholarship.

[Agente Libre]

In theory Cuban defectors could go to school, but Viciedo is already 18-19 years old and has a great amateur track record. Unless it takes two years to get the papers he needs, it wouldn't make much sense for a guy like Viciedo to attend college, especially a four-year school like Miami. (Players at four-year colleges can't get drafted until after their third year, unless they drop out.)

[Cubano100%]

I sent you a private message.

[Agente Libre]

I sent you a private message.

To me, or someone else? I don't have any new PMs waiting.

[Cubano100%]

To me, or someone else? I don't have any new PMs waiting.


emanuelsaavedra

[Cubano100%]

Llego Dayan Viciedooooooooooooooo!

Villa Clara Oranges Dayan Viciedo is in the USA. He escape Cuba and went to Mexico. Then, he crossed the border. Big money is coming his way. He is 19 years old only. He can play 3B,SS, outfield and he used to pitch in the juniors. 90 MPH.

Height: 1.83 meters
Weight: 92 Kilograms





http://media.elnuevoherald.com/smedia/2008/06/07/14/57-Dayan08_Viciedo_7_Lnew_rk.standalone.prod_affiliat e.84.JPG
http://www.elnuevoherald.com/167/story/222430.html

[J.P]

But unless he stablishes residence in a third country, hes going to have to wait a year to get drafted. Thanks a lot Bud.

[J.P]

The article makes no mention of Freddy Asiel though :confused:

[Cubano100%]

Ramirez three hits:

http://www.4shared.com/file/50515370/e6eecbe/Alexei_Ramirez_080607.html

[Cubano100%]

Alexei:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806082872870

[emanuelsaavedra]

sorry for not checking the message before. The reason why I asked about cuban ballplayers going to school is because it sounds like a good deal. Inthe case of Viciedo he might be too big for a school. But in the case of someone who might not have such a name. It would take you about 4 years to make it to the majors anyways, and you would have to sign a minimal contract. In that case, it would be quite smart to take the hit for a couple of years, make a big name in college baseball and then declare for the draft and get drafted really high, and then go after the big contract and be in the majors within a year. Actually if i was viciedo i would have to consider what would be better be stuck in AA for 2 or 3 years of play college ball for a couple of years then drop out, be the first overall pick and be in the majors within a year

[geforce2299]

sorry for not checking the message before. The reason why I asked about cuban ballplayers going to school is because it sounds like a good deal. Inthe case of Viciedo he might be too big for a school. But in the case of someone who might not have such a name. It would take you about 4 years to make it to the majors anyways, and you would have to sign a minimal contract. In that case, it would be quite smart to take the hit for a couple of years, make a big name in college baseball and then declare for the draft and get drafted really high, and then go after the big contract and be in the majors within a year. Actually if i was viciedo i would have to consider what would be better be stuck in AA for 2 or 3 years of play college ball for a couple of years then drop out, be the first overall pick and be in the majors within a year

buddy buddy, i think your getting a head a bit, i mean no doubt this kid probably has a lot of talent but i wouldnt say he is "too big for school" no no no. I have to disagree with you there. I know for a fact there are a hand full of pitchers in cuba that touch 90+ mhp, thats it. He is going to have to adjust a bit before you can see his full potential. There have been a bunch of guys who have been signed only because they came with national series background which works out well for them. With that in mind, i think the best thing for him to do is get as much money as he can right now and go make the adjustments in the minors rather than making them at school because it could be a double-edged sword not to mention University of Miami who doesnt give full schoolarships to baseball players (all taken by football players), which is one of the most academic challenging schools in the country, you think hes gonna walk in there and even take an SAT test? whos gonna pay for the rest of his tuition? School + Baseball for a brain like his? solabaya,
not a good deal at all. At most, go to Miami Dade for a year like Limonta or Hassan and see what happens, he will have no problems there with school, they have that there under control but his best bet is to get all the money he can now and worry about performing later and not only him, everybody that comes out of there.

[J.P]

I agree with you on everything else, but Dayan Viciedo is in fact, baseball wise, too big for school. I know the Cuban National Series doesnt have the highest level, but I am 100% certain than its level its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay higher than college baseball. Not to mention that he would go back to aluminum bats, remember the Serie Nacional now plays with wooden bats.

[J.P]

And also, as to who would pay for his tuition, etc, well, the same people that paid to get him and his whole family out of Cuba. But I mean, I do agree with you, he doesnt need to get stuck in a 4 year school.

[geforce2299]

I'm one of those guys who has to see it to believe it, if he goes and absolutely kills it at a D1 school then I'll agree he was too big for it plus, even thought he is still very young he wasn't Kendry Morales in Cuba, this is a kid who has developed skills pretty early but in no way does that mean the rate is gonna keep rising, his age could pretty well catch up with his advanced development and then he would just be one more of the bunch, because it has happened before, example:
Brayan Pena, you probably know him as the chubby, second back up catcher recently released by Atlanta and Kansas City. When Brayan was 16 or 17 he was the biggest prospect Cuba had since Omar Linares, 100 times better than Kendry, Yasser Gomez, Serguei Perez and forget about "el gambao" Yunel Escobar, and then what happened, the development slope got flat his age caught up with it and he became the type of player he is now.

Don't get me wrong, i want this kid to succeed, but lets not jump to conclusions just yet, wait a little bit, oh another thing, even if he wants to go to school he cant, no SNN# yet.

[J.P]

I dont really remember Brayan Peña as the top prospect in Cuba; but assuming he was, he was the best amongst 15-16 years old kids, Dayan was considered one of the best amongst grown men! I'm not saying that he is going to be an MLB superstar for sure, but as far as College Baseball, I mean, I'm certain he would just be out of his league............I mean, I've heard Serie Nacional level of play been compared to anything from A+ to AA to AAA to somewhere in between AAA and MLB, but never, and I repeat, never, have I heard it compared to College Baseball, I think its just ludicruous to think that Dayan Viciedo, or anybody else who hit 337 with 15 HR's at age 15/16 playing with cuban professionals and a wooden bat, would have any problems dominating College Ball.

[Cubano100%]

Brayan Pena, you probably know him as the chubby, second back up catcher recently released by Atlanta and Kansas City. When Brayan was 16 or 17 he was the biggest prospect Cuba had since Omar Linares, 100 times better than Kendry, Yasser Gomez, Serguei Perez and forget about "el gambao" Yunel Escobar, and then what happened, the development slope got flat his age caught up with it and he became the type of player he is now.



You've got to be kidding about Pena being a super prospect!

[Cubano100%]

There is a rumor that Isla de la Juventud SS Juan Carlos Moreno is in Mexico.

[emanuelsaavedra]

I did not know that the University of Miami did not give full scholarships to baseball players. I do not live in Miami or follow college baseball. What i meant about Viciedo is that he is going to be making 1st round money anyways, so its pointless for him to go to college, i made that case for someone who does not have his name. Then, lets be serious, Viciedo would not really have to pass his classes if he did in fact go to a school. I am a college student and i go to a big time sports school and the star of our sports team does have to go to class but he does not have to pass it. For starters, this guy get the easiest classes ever. He basically showed up to class and went to sleep and woke up at the end and left. And when the class got complicated enough to where this guy was failing, all the sudden the class got a lot easier and there were like 700 tutors around this guy. When a guy like this can win a championship for your school, those schools will turn a blind eye on academics. Do you really think that Reggie Bush, or Matt Lainert, or Vince Young, Adrian Peterson, Ricky Williams or any of those guys really passed their classes due to long hours of studying? Come on, lets be realistic. Viciedo would be another name added to the long list of guys who never studied in college because they were great athletes

[emanuelsaavedra]

I dont know how old Moreno is but if in fact he did defect, i hope he is not planning on playing in the majors because he has to be 29 or 30 or even more. This guy has been playing for La Isla since I started following baseball in Cuba and that was around 1996 or so.

[geforce2299]

Cuban National Series was at a AA-AAA level, yes, once upon a time, when Linares, Kindelan, Pacheco and even farther back when Munoz, Medina and them, but not now, not even close. Players come out of there and get signed a couple of years because of the reputation the league once had and then go on the play Liga Nica in Tamiami. Baseball has moved on from the old ways, but not in Cuba. Talent is most definitely god given and it is still there but malnutrition and many other factors have caught up with people and full development is hardly ever achieved. Like i said, you will be lucky if you find a hand full of guys touching 90+, so those stats your showing me are overrated. I wouldn't want anything else for this kid to go in there and tear it up and prove that we can play at the highest level but don't just assume stuff like that. In the other hand, whats A and A+ full of? mostly college players, so i think it would be fair to categorize some NCAA D1 conferences as A-A+ somewhere around there, i even have heard agents advising certain players to go to a big D1 school instead of signing out of high school because the conditions are better and the level of play is about the same but in this case is different, why take a chance of getting less money if your gonna start out at about the same level? he might end up getting more money but then its a roll of the dice, new country, new language, plus there are other things about being a student-athlete that im not gonna get into, nahh, my friend, take the money now, and whatever happens, you will be already if not close to a millionaire.

P.S: About Brayan Pena, believe me, i was there.

[emanuelsaavedra]

well, i am not a cuba fanatic, so i will admit that the teams in the national league are not MLB level, but can not argue that some A team could take on Santiago de Cuba or Industriales for that matter. Teams like Cienfuegos would have a hard time taking on AA teams, but the thing with this is that the mexican league is supposedly AAA level and when they have played cuban teams and i dont mean the national team, but teams like Pinar, Industriales, Matanzas and Villa Clara they got their asses handed to them. Besides, it would be dumb to say that the national team could not take at least on AAA teams. In my opinion the lower end teams (Cienfuegos, Metros etc) would be A or AA level, the best teams like Santiago would be in my opinion AA or AAA level

[emanuelsaavedra]

Comparing the styles of baseball is not smart either. baseball in cuba and in the states is totally different. If american ballplayers went to cuba, they would also have to go through a period of adaptation, its just the way the game is played. A good comparison for the level of baseball for cuba would be like comparing it to soccer. the teams in Brazil cannot play with the teams in europe, but their teams are full of great players in the making.

[geforce2299]

Do you really think that Reggie Bush, or Matt Lainert, or Vince Young, Adrian Peterson, Ricky Williams or any of those guys really passed their classes due to long hours of studying? Come on, lets be realistic. Viciedo would be another name added to the long list of guys who never studied in college because they were great athletes

It all depends on the teachers and the sport, there are some teachers who simply dont give a s***, and they even get tougher on those guys, plus football is not baseball. Football makes money, baseball not so much. A teacher's salary could very well come out of football ticket sales, not baseball, so there are a few differences, hey years back Alex Fernandez was asked to transfer from UM to Miami Dade for a fixed amount of money and draft pick, Juco is definitely a lower league, there is no question he will settle there and even get more money, and there are no worries about academics as they have that under control there. As for other players with other names? yes is a very good idea, Yunel Escobar was very close to playing for Miami Dade, at the end, it was Johan Limonta and Hassan Pena who stepped up and did very well both on the field and financially.

[geforce2299]

well, i am not a cuba fanatic, so i will admit that the teams in the national league are not MLB level, but can not argue that some A team could take on Santiago de Cuba or Industriales for that matter. Teams like Cienfuegos would have a hard time taking on AA teams, but the thing with this is that the mexican league is supposedly AAA level and when they have played cuban teams and i dont mean the national team, but teams like Pinar, Industriales, Matanzas and Villa Clara they got their asses handed to them. Besides, it would be dumb to say that the national team could not take at least on AAA teams. In my opinion the lower end teams (Cienfuegos, Metros etc) would be A or AA level, the best teams like Santiago would be in my opinion AA or AAA level


Absolutely not, you cannot evaluate talent and playing level simply based on a single game on a given day, team Cuba has beaten many MLB stacked teams like Dominicana and such, the same way they have gotten beat by college and very weak japanese teams in World Championships. Anyone can win a game on a given day. What you have to do is take all the players that have come vs the players that have made it and succeeded and make a statistical analysis and then form an opinion.

[geforce2299]

Comparing the styles of baseball is not smart either. baseball in cuba and in the states is totally different. If american ballplayers went to cuba, they would also have to go through a period of adaptation, its just the way the game is played. A good comparison for the level of baseball for cuba would be like comparing it to soccer. the teams in Brazil cannot play with the teams in europe, but their teams are full of great players in the making.

Not a good comparison at all, players on the Brazil team are STARS on their League teams in europe, not good players in the making. The reason they dont win at the World Cup is the same reason the Yankees dont win anymore. American MLB players would have to adapt in Cuba yes, the same way a high school player would going back to little league.

[emanuelsaavedra]

what i meant was that if you take a club from the brazilian league and pair it up with a club from europe, the club from europe would be better, but the club in brazil would have great players in the making. you cannot expect a team from the serie nacional to take on the mlb. Its like taking just the ball players from florida and dividing them into 16 teams and expecting them to play and win in the major leagues. I do however believe that there is good enough talent in cuba to make a team that would be competitive. Granted, they have lost games to college kids, but they have also beaten the best in the world in given days, i know that they got beat by a bunch of kids in tournaments, but i also know that they made all-star teams from the dominican, puerto rico, venezuela and others look embarassing. There is good and bad, you just have to make a decision based on both

[geforce2299]

but i also know that they made all-star teams from the dominican, puerto rico, venezuela and others look embarassing. There is good and bad, you just have to make a decision based on both


If you are referring to the WBC, CUB 4 -- PR 3 doesnt look so embarrasing to me as CUB 2 --- PR 12, but thats just me i dont know, it might look different to you. University of Miami last year i think beat the Marlins on an exhibition game, was UM a AA-AAA team then? no, is the National Series AA-AAA today? absolutely not, A+ at most, no team from National Series can survive on a SERIES of games against even AA-AAA, a sole Team Cuba might be able to compete at AAA level but dont judge the league based on its all-star team. As for Viciedo, we will see what level he settles in first, im predicting A+ i hope im wrong.

[emanuelsaavedra]

like i said, there is a very big disparity in the talent in the Serie Nacional. A lotof teams have lost a lot of ballplayers due to defection. But other teams like Santiago that have not had defection look out of the league. I think that Santiago could give any team in the caribbean a competitive game, i am not saying that they could dominate them or win a seven game series, i am saying that they could be competitive, and those teams are ranked to be about AAA level. Then, what i meant by the size, is that the cuban series is always going to be below the american level, because cuba has 11+ million people to chose from. The US has the whole world. What i am saying is that for their population, cuba does have a rather good quality league. I am not like i mentioned a stubborn cuban or anything like that. Im usually wrong in many things, but i believe that certain teams in cuba could be competitive at a high level.

[emanuelsaavedra]

what i meant by embarrasing was the way that the dominican and venezuela looked against cuba. Like i said before i am not claiming that our pitchers could come in and win 20+ games. But certain guys could give a good showing. The dominican did look totally dominated by marti and lazo, and venezuela had a really hard time getting to our pitchers too. Those games were close, but the only reason that they were close is because our offense was less than spectacular, had we had a decent offense, those games would not have been close. Do you see what i mean?

[geforce2299]

What i meant about Viciedo is


what i meant was that if


Then, what i meant by the size


what i meant by embarrasing was


My friend, you said it yourself, you are not a Cuban League fanatic. The WBC CUBA team that got 2nd place had ONE player from Santiago de Cuba, Ormari Romero, who lost the final game vs Japan. I cant remember the last time a specific team form the National Series played an international game. Years ago it used to be that whoever won the Series went on to play in the Caribbean Series or some international event, that doesnt happen anymore, they make up a Cuba B or Cuba C and they send them to play a Mexico B or Dominican B, not Sultanes de Monterrey, it wouldnt be revolutionary to play a professional team now, would it? Again Santiago by itself might be able to win a game or two at that level the same way U of M can beat the Marlins on a given day, but that is meaningless, how many guys from Santiago can go straight to AAA right now? I know you are trying to defend you country and i admire that but dont blind yourself, i will wait for another "what i meant was" response.

[Agente Libre]

This thread is getting seriously off-track, but the idea that baseball in Cuba has regressed substantially is just nonsense. The rest of the world might be catching up a little, and the presence of pro players in some international tournaments means the old days of Cuba winning games 17-2 and 12-1 are mostly over, but that doesn't mean Cuban baseball is in decline.

It hasn't been a fluke that Cuba has dominated international baseball for the last 20 years. Cuba wins because they have great players -- and most of the time, Equipo Cuba doesn't even come close to having Cuba's best 25 players.

It used to be that only pitchers could come over and have success, but now, after Cuba switched to wood bats, more and more hitters are coming over and succeeding. Hell, Yunel Escobar and Yuniesky Betancourt are putting up better offensive numbers in MLB than they did in Cuba.

Everyone *always* believes things used to be better 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, and 99% of the time it's just nostalgic silliness.

[Richard]

I am sure Cuba would put as many or more players in MLB as the Dominican.

[geforce2299]

Cuba has been and will always be one fo the top baseball countries in the world, and it would most likely put as many or more players in the bigs as the Dominican if politics were different, but that right now it has substantially less MLB ready players than years ago is a fact. Betancourt and Escobar are great great players but they did not come straight to AAA like some people claim Serie Nacional is at. International baseball has always been a joke before the pros started playing and you all know that. How come nobody mentions Andy Morales going 5-6 vs the Orioles and then not getting past AA? and Yamel Guevara 10-0 with 1. something ERA and now getting lid up in independent ball? and Yobal Duenas?

Dayan Viciedo will most likely make it to MLB but right now he is at A+ - AA at the most.

[emanuelsaavedra]

Well, i hope that the new set of "reforms" will spill into baseball and the champion of the Serie Nacional will be allowed to play in the Caribbean Series. That would put this discussion to rest, but knowing Cuba that is unlikely to happen. Actually I am too young to remember, but didnt the champion of Cuba used to play in the Caribbean Series up to like 20 years ago? If that is the case, it would be dumb to not allow it now when the country is a lot "less communist" :) Anyways, just to explain myself. The reason i thought that santiago would be a good, competitive team, is because they have in my opinion the best, and most exciting team in cuba filled up with young players who are already stars, mixed in with a great group of veterans. And i hate santiago, i am from pinar del rio. But, i have to admit, that not having any major defections has helped them to keep up that talent level. I mean in their lineup is A) filled with great young guys and B)anyone could hit a homerun any given moment. And the pitching staff is not too bad either.

[emanuelsaavedra]

yobal duenas by the way is not a good example of a cuban ballplayer not succeeding. He was too old when he came over, and even if he had talent, no one was going to take a chance at a 32 year old player. Yobal was late in coming by like 6 or 7 years.

[geforce2299]

You are right, Santiago de Cuba is everything you say, in an A+ league, but in no way does that mean it can compete in AAA.

Yobal Duenas, it is true he might have been too old and at the downfall of his career, but Jose Ariel Contreras was the same age when he came over and he made it, plus, the Yankees DID take a chance on him he just couldn't perform, i think however he might have been an MLB caliber player at some point in his career.

Look, this discussion has gone too far, and i don't think i will ever convince you otherwise. I believe i have proved my point however. I have been on both sides of the table (baseball wise) and can speak from personal experience.

[Agente Libre]

Cuba has been and will always be one fo the top baseball countries in the world, and it would most likely put as many or more players in the bigs as the Dominican if politics were different, but that right now it has substantially less MLB ready players than years ago is a fact. ...

So you believe all those old Cuban hitters like Pacheco and Mesa and Linares could have gone from swinging aluminum bats in Cuba to swinging wood bats in Cuba?

Those guys had a lot of talent, and it's unfortunate they never got a chance to try to play MLB, but the best Cuban position players today are just as good if not better than the guys from the '70s and '80s, at least when you look at things in terms of the modern M.L. game.

You are right, Santiago de Cuba is everything you say, in an A+ league, but in no way does that mean it can compete in AAA.

Compete in AAA? The average AAA roster has maybe one player who will go on to become an everyday player in MLB. Meanwhile, Santiago de Cuba's starting lineup is better than at least six major league teams today. If you can find an AAA team that has a better 1B than Ruiz, better 2B than Olivera, better SS than Navas, better 3B than Mustelier and a better OF than Alexei Bell, I'll buy you a new car.