Cuban Players Defectors

[Agente Libre]

Honkbal Baseball Week is held every other year in Haarlem, Netherlands. There was a separate thread for this year's event in this forum; last post should have been within the last month.

[Martin Dihigo]

Cubano, I saw your post about rooting for both teams . . .
Reminds me of my dad who used to say that he always rooted for the winner.

Thought you folks might enjoy this opinion piece from an Arizona paper.


MLB will benefit when blockade of Cuban players ends

Joseph A. Reaves
The Arizona Republic
Sept. 5, 2006 12:00 AM

The United States and Cuba play tonight in the gold-medal game of the
pre-Olympic qualifying tournament in Havana.

Both countries qualified this past weekend for the 2008 Beijing Olympics, so
tonight's game is mostly about pride - and about what should have been and
what might yet be.

The recent hospitalization of 80-year-old Cuban President Fidel Castro
raised speculation about the future of the island nation's most precious
commodity: its baseball players.

Once upon a time, Cuba sent the greatest number of foreign-born players to
the major leagues. Even now, after nearly a half-century ban on players
leaving for the United States, Cubans rank fourth on the all-time list of
foreign-born major leaguers with 153.

Forget about politics. If a regime change in Cuba brings an end to the
blockade, baseball fans everywhere will benefit.

"It will give you a chance to see the best baseball players in the world,
the ones who didn't defect like me and my brother and the other people,"
says Diamondbacks pitcher Livan Hernandez, who defected in 1995 and two
years later was MVP of the World Series.

"Everybody is waiting to see what happens. It's better to have them come and play. Cubans play the best baseball in the world."

Folks in some other strong baseball countries might argue with that. But
there is no denying Cubans play some of the best baseball in the world.

They've proved it time and again. Since 1936, Cuba has won the World Cup of
Baseball 25 times. Next best is Venezuela with three world titles.

Cuba has won three of the four gold medals awarded at the Olympics since
baseball became an official sport in 1992.

And in the inaugural World Baseball Classic last spring, Cuba finished
second to Japan and ahead of powerhouse teams from the United States, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic and Venezuela - all loaded with established major league stars.

Part of the reason Cuba has excelled in international competition is because
of the blockade. Its best players are concentrated on one national team,
instead of being dispersed among major league clubs as they were before 1960 when such greats as Minnie Minoso, Luis Tiant and Bert Campaneris came to the United States.

That almost certainly will change some day. Maybe not the moment Castro
leaves the scene, but some day, and perhaps soon.

Some of Cuba's best players have managed to slip through the blockade.
Hernandez and his half brother, Orlando, are among the biggest. Jose
Contreras, Vladimir Nuñez and Danys Baez all made a big impact in the
majors. And Kendry Morales of the Los Angeles Angels is a superstar in the making.

But some of the best baseball players of the past half-century never had the
chance to prove they were as good as, or better than, their major league
counterparts.

Third baseman Omar Linares might have been the best of all. He was the star
player for Cuba's gold-medal Olympic teams in 1992 and '96, batting .488 (40
for 82) with 12 home runs.

Earlier this summer, Baseball America called Linares "the most influential
amateur player of the last 25 years."

"Not to take anything away from Brooks Robinson, Graig Nettles or even the
greatest defensive third baseman that I saw play, Billy Cox, but Linares
could play circles around them all," said Bob Weinstein of Goodyear, who has
visited Cuba more than 100 times since 1997 promoting sports exchanges.
"Plus he (Linares) hit for average and power.

"He had several opportunities to defect but always remained true to his
country."

Linares once said the New York Yankees offered him $50 million to defect.
"(That) would be an act of treason," he said. "It will never happen." And it
never did.

It's too late for Linares. His career is over. But many think Cuba has some
of the best young talent in decades ready for the major leagues if the
opportunity arises.

"I can only say that after watching Linares (and some of the other greats)
in their primes, I am not sure that the current group isn't going to be the
equal or better," said Weinstein, who just returned from the pre-Olympic
qualifying tournament in Havana.

He singled out of infielders Yulieski Gourriel, Eduardo Paret, Alexander
Mayeta, outfielders Osmani Urrutia and Frederich Cepeda, and catcher Ariel
Pestano. All are on the Cuban team that will play the United States tonight.

And those are just the position players. Cuba is, as always, rich in
pitchers: Frank Montieth, Norberto Gonzalez and Pedro Luis Lazo Iglesias to
name a few.

Will any of them ever make it to the major leagues? Time will tell. But not
everyone is hoping they will. One who isn't is Peter C. Bjarkman author of
several books on Cuban baseball and a frequent visitor to the island.

"When that day comes, there will be little left that can be called Cuban
baseball," Bjarkman said by e-mail from the tournament in Havana. "The
ending of this era will wipe out a glorious institution, despite some
positive changes in terms of opportunity for Cubans in the majors - just as
the signing of (Jackie) Robinson in 1947 meant the end of the thriving
institution that was once the Negro Leagues.

"It is the inevitable march of time."

Reach the reporter at (602) 444-8125 or joseph.reaves@arizonarepublic.com

[J.P]

The blockade is not the problem, even if it didnt exist, Castro wouldnt allow "his" players to leave.

[Cubano100%]

Three more years and he will be gone.

[Cubano100%]

Dihigo:

I like your nickname: Dihigo "el Maestro o el Inmortal". The greatest of all Cuban players for sure.

I was born in Cuba obviously. When I was growing up there, I used to root for the Americans (college kids) every time they played the Cuban National team. Mainly, I was sicked and tired of the Communist Mambo Jumbo Dumbo dance with me propaganda. I also did it because those Cuban players did not defect to the USA. They lacked vision in my opinion. I wished to be in their position for one second in my life to say bye bye to the nonsense. Despite all of this, I also wanted the Cuban team to win. I am Cubano 100% and I can not change that.

Now than I am in the USA, I root for both too. The USA is my adoptive land and I am very thankfull of being here. The USA has been so generous to me that sometimes I feel overwelm.

Life is full of contradictions. Isn't it?

Cubans see the end of this nightmare coming soon. Baseball players are now thinking about their future more than in the past. Therefore, there will be more defections in the future. This is one reason why I root for the Cuban team. I want them to do well so they can see for themselves they can compete against the big boys. I know by doing so I am rooting for some players such as Osmany Urrutia and Eduardo Paret who are Communists. It does not matter to me. They chose their side and they will have to leave with their decisions for the rest of their life.

Let me stop here before Jim bans me for 48 hours. :D

[jalbright]

Cubano,

You're not close to being banned, though the post about three years (two up) is, I fear, less about baseball than politics. I don't know where you intended to go with the post before this, though.

Look, I'm not here to be heavy handed. But if I've got to keep the peace, I'll do what I have to do. Personal attacks of any kind are out. I recognize that politics intrudes into many discussions in this forum because it's a legitimate part of the discussion. However, if we go beyond our connection to baseball and meander into predominantly political discussion, that's out of bounds. It's hard to define precisely--but we all should be careful when we get into politics here. This forum is about baseball. If you want to talk about the political system or rulers of various countries in the world, there are plenty of places to do that appropriately. This site is not among them.

As I said in another discussion, a major reason people like sports is they provide an escape from the "real world". Few folks if any are coming here to discuss politics. Free speech is great, but everybody here is enjoying a free service as a guest. Please be a good guest and everything will be fine. Those guests who cannot behave appropriately will be dealt with.

Sorry about the sermon. But it seems there's some doubt about the ground rules. I hope I've cleared it up. If you want to contact me to discuss what's acceptable and what's not, feel free to PM me.

Jim Albright

[Cubano100%]

Jim:

I was joking at the end of my previous post regarding the 48 hours ban. Usually, we have no problems in this Thread. Anybody can discuss things in here without any problems. However, now and then someone shows up to write wonderful things about what is going on in Cuba. That is when the problem starts with me. The entire world has lived a romanticism with the Cuban revolution. Many times this romantic view permeates into our sport discussions in here.

Let's go back to baseball.


Jose Contreras pitched great yesterday. I saw part of the game and he looked strong. Last year, he pitched great down the stretch. This year, Johan Santana is doing the same for the Twins. I still think the White Sox can earn the Wild Card.

[Cubano100%]

SS Yuniesky Betancourt batted third again. I do not think the M's should put him there. This is his Bio: Height: 5'10" Weight: 190

This is not a Bio for a hitter batting third.

[J.P]

Hey Cubano, I didnt get to see much of Contreras, I was enjoying my rookie pitcher throw a No-No, while putting us back a game over 500,first team ever to be 20 games under 500 and go over at some point in the season, first team since 1952 with three rookies with ten wins or more, first NL team ever with two rookies with 20 or more HR's, and only 3 games back in the WC race, still think we are AA caliber??????:waving :dance :coffee :)

[Rennie Stennett]

Hargrove is shaking things up with Yuniesky in the three hole.

Earlier in the year I posted a lineup with Betancourt hitting leadoff followed by Lopez 2nd and Ichiro third. Most of the guys commented that Ichiro is a natural leadoff hitter and both Lopez and Betancourt belong farther back in the order.

I think Yuni would be a great leadoff hitter. For a guy who is basically a rookie (200 AB's last year) he has shown he can take some pitches, go the other way and he can hit curveballs. He's got speed and he doesn't strikeout.

Lopez showed the first half of this year that he can take pitches and give himself up and go the other way to move runners over. He did great hitting second. Hargrove had to mess with sucess and move him to third in the lineup for awhile.

Ichiro, IMO, is a perfect three hitter, where I believe he hit most of his career in Japan. He doesn't stikeout much and he puts the ball in play. He has no power but his average with guys in scoring position and with the sacks full is off the charts.

Everyone says I'm nuts thinking this way.

[Cubano100%]

In numerous ocassions, I have found articles in the Media mentioning the fact that only 23 Cuban defectors have made it to the big leagues among the 146 known defectors since 1993. In 1993, Havana Lions RHP Rene Arocha walked away in the Miami airport (I think). He was not the first one because Barbaro Garbey came during the Mariel. However, Arocha was the first one walking away during an International trip as a member of the Cuban team.

As you can see, only a handfull of these players have decent careers in Cuba. The rest had no business to do in the USA as baseball players. Even among these 16 players there are several that waited to long to defect.

The following players are the ones with some decent number in Cuba disregarding age. I also tried to pick them according to their positions. For instance, Rey Ordonez could not hit a meatball in Cuba but he was good defensibly.

In most cases, these players wasted 2 years in third countries. Therefore, if a player had 10 seasons in Cuba, it is safe to add 2 more baseball years to their careers.

Michel Abreu
Jesus Atmetller
Yuniesky Betancourt
Barbaro Canizares Trying to make it as an utility. He was bad defensibly as a catcher and was DH for the Lions.
Amaury Casanas
Roberto Colina Played with aluminum bat in Cuba
Jorge Diaz
Yobal Duenas played 14 seasons in Cuba and spend 2 years in third countries
Barbaro Garbey
Alberto Hernandez catcher with good defense but no good ofensibly
Oscar Macias Played 18 seasons in Cuba mostly with aluminum bats.
Juan Miguel Miranda Still in D.R.
Andy Morales Lacked power for MLB
Kendry Morales
Rey Ordonez
Jorge Toca Played with aluminum bat in Cuba


Only 16 players out of 83 had some decent numbers in Cuba.

Five of these players have played in the big leagues:

Others have reached AA or AAA with good numbers: Abreu, Canizares and Atmetller.


I have not finished my work yet. I am waiting to collect this year minor league season numbers once the Web Sites update the info. Then, I will have the different levels these players reached and their stats.




What do you guys think?


These are position players only.




Players Series AB H AVE 2B 3B HR SLU RBI BB K Fielding AVE

Michel Abreu 8 2194 691 315 105 3 115 523 432 399 418 989
Roberto Alvarez 3 535 133 249 22 7 11 378 70 41 177 973
Jesus Atmetller 3 509 99 287 22 5 23 485 6 38 58 964
Jose Ballester 2 204 42 206 6 0 2 265 16 18 53 956
Evel Batisda 4 1067 326 306 40 14 3 378 106 171 142 934
Y. Betancourt 4 1187 333 281 60 23 26 436 148 62 123 973
Smaily Borges 0
Yasser Borges 0
Juan Bruzon 12 3633 1131 311 197 28 29 405 363 252 256 978
Alexi Cabrejas 6 1324 424 320 48 14 12 405 131 133 209 973
Eduardo Cajuso 3 524 104 198 22 2 1 254 29 25 94 963
B. Canizares 10 2248 671 298 119 3 52 423 379 374 302 984
Amaury Casanas 9 2263 669 296 137 24 121 538 451 323 573 965
G. Casares 1 15 4 267 2 0 0 400 3 2 3 889
Carlos Castillo 2 261 66 253 5 5 1 322 14 15 39 940
B. Ceballos 4 490 91 186 9 1 0 208 26 79 63 920
Mario Chaoui 0
Roberto Colina 11 2722 798 293 144 8 104 467 466 519 460 992
Lazaro Costa 3 104 28 269 3 1 2 375 16 1 12 981
Jose Cano 5 1358 399 294 55 12 52 467 194 117 266 987
Alexander Diaz 4 62 8 129 1 0 1 194 4 4 26 984
Juan Diaz 0
Jorge Diaz6 1915 542 283 61 26 21 375 172 268 260 973
Yobal Duenas 14 5025 1615 321 282 46 136 477 763 351 359 974
Roman Duequesne 4 481 117 243 14 5 4 318 64 46 36 975
Yunel Escobar 4 439 119 271 16 2 6 358 50 77 96 923
Osmany Estrada 4 130 32 246 2 3 4 400 21 12 11 932
Alexis Fonseca 2 96 23 240 0 0 1 271 8 5 18 1000
Walter Frias 0
Barbaro Garbey 5 1128 327 290 52 7 19 399 140 103 94 956
Osmani Garcia 8 1902 570 300 105 10 48 441 252 163 177 970
Mario Gonzalez 4 505 123 244 21 3 3 315 73 154 53 980
Rolando Gum 4 377 90 239 6 0 0 255 12 26 45 949
A. Hernandez 11 2430 616 253 98 3 94 412 359 320 369 985
A. Hernandez 6 716 201 281 38 2 26 448 107 50 112 985
M. Hernandez 3 81 23 284 3 2 1 407 7 7 8 987
V. Hernandez 7 231 72 312 15 0 3 416 25 12 19 939
Felix Isasi 8 1176 325 276 35 12 7 344 82 154 139 980
Maikel Jova 0
Yoan Limonta 1 29 6 207 1 0 0 241 3 4 9 939
Donell Linares 1 47 9 191 4 0 0 277 1 6 9 100
Omar Llapur 0
Angel Lopez 12 2413 644 267 107 10 115 452 391 204 550 985
Elio Lopez 2 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 926
Oscar Macias 18 6313 1960 310 319 50 286 513 1080 728 895 974
A. Martin 4 188 34 181 2 2 0 213 16 22 28 923
R. Mediavilla 6 257 43 167 6 1 1 210 20 42 42 982
Jose Mesa 1 89 13 146 1 0 0 157 4 25 35 904
Juan Miranda 4 1138 343 301 70 14 57 538 205 197 242 981
Neylan Molina 3 765 243 318 28 6 0 370 49 77 46 992
Osmani Masso 4 900 219 275 28 6 7 351 84 76 142 961
Andy Morales 9 2322 740 319 151 15 54 466 374 207 237 964
Kendry Morales 3 871 287 330 60 5 37 537 170 116 124 954
Juan Muniz 5 765 178 233 26 2 9 307 83 98 154 958
R. Ordonez 4 712 186 261 23 4 4 322 71 23 76 963
Rafael Ortega 3 177 34 201 4 0 1 243 7 6 29 904
William Ortega 2 313 81 299 12 0 6 410 52 35 43 966
Ayalen Ortiz 4 596 167 280 29 4 8 383 53 37 110 964
Brayan Pena 0
Josue Perez 2 199 51 297 11 0 0 360 27 21 30 981
Yohannis Perez 4 1208 327 271 36 14 10 349 110 103 246 966
Omar Perez 5 436 101 232 22 1 12 369 58 68 110 969
Nestor Perez 1 18 5 278 1 0 0 333 2 0 2 921
Joel Perez 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1000
William Plaza 0
Pablo Pozo 5 36 3 83 0 0 0 83 1 2 6 1000
N. Reinoso 9 1635 478 292 83 17 27 413 174 117 312 968
Roberto Salazar 8 1802 430 239 51 22 19 323 129 250 183 960
Y. Sanchez 2 462 108 234 15 3 3 299 58 26 62 955
Alex Sanchez 0
Osmani Santana 7 1291 390 302 55 11 20 408 130 113 170 987
A. Santiesteban 2 129 31 240 3 1 0 279 12 16 19 985
F. Santiesteban 8 792 222 280 30 9 8 371 88 98 138 991
Y. Sardinas 3 66 14 212 0 0 1 258 2 3 27 989
Yalian Serrano 0
Julio Soto 9 1256 274 218 28 11 8 277 102 116 206 942
Jorge Luis Toca 8 2497 796 319 165 15 100 517 465 217 348 992
Miguel Urra 2 12 2 167 0 0 0 167 1 0 2 846
Bernardo Utset 1 15 1 67 0 0 0 67 0 4 4 1000
Ramon Valdivia 2 8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 944
A. Zuaznabar 2 205 55 268 8 2 2 356 18 19 33 928
Ramiro Chamizo 5 630 157 273 32 5 8 387 65 34 75 915








The following are the full names of the players which names appear with the first initial only.

Rigoberto Betancourt
Yuniesky Betancourt
Barbaro Canizares
Gregorio Casares
Bienvenido Ceballos
Alberto Hernandez
Alexis Hernandez
Michel Hernandez
Vladimir Hernandez
Alejandro Martin
Rogelio Mediavilla
Reynaldo Ordonez
Nataniel Reinoso
Yuniesky Sanchez
Americo Santiesteban
Francisco Santiesteban
Yennier Sardinas
Alejandro Zuaznabar

[J.P]

Good job Cubano, the stats are a little hard to read in that format though.

[jalbright]

Well, the stats aren't perfect to read this way, but they're a lot more legible than it's easy to manage without using the Code tags. You can try to manually adjust things to deal with the automatic tab sets these tags seem to use, which helps a little most times. It's just tough to do it really pretty without resorting to an attachment you've got to open. I prefer this to an attachment because it's more accessible. Anyway, to me the important things are 1) Cubano has been kind enough to do the work in providing us with this information, and 2) it's legible. Thanks, Cubano, and I look forward to hearing more.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

Jim -- I agree it's much more legible, but do you think the mods could possibly increase the default size for such tables? Right now, those stats boxes are only taking up about 50% of my browser window (left to right). If those stats boxes could be read more inline, rather than needing to scroll within the window (up/down and left/right), it would be even better. Thanks.

[Agente Libre]

Cubano -- Good job with the stats, but the headings are off (it says Series over ABs, ABs over Hits, etc.). Might want abbreviate Pos. Plyrs. so the headings fall back in line.

[Cubano100%]

Rennie Stennett:

I stole your picture. ;)

I know this is just Hargrove shaking things up, but I think Betancourt is better suited to hit second instead of third.




http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/Doomtown7/WAJF106071001_lower-1.jpg

[Cubano100%]

The headings are not off anymore. I fixed the table and now every column and raw is aligned.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=36485&page=31

[Cubano100%]

Super Kendry is in the playoff with the Salt Lake Bees. He had a double in four AB in the first game.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=g_box&gid=2006_09_06_slcaaa_tucaaa_1

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060907&content_id=128947&vkey=news_l112&fext=.jsp&sid=l112

[Cubano100%]

B. Shanks responded to the following question about Yunel Escobar.

How do the Braves feel about Yunel Escobar's season? There was talk at the beginning of the season that he could be an option in the middle infield for next year, still think he has a chance at a starting position on the Braves in the next two years?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think they are pleased. Even though he was supposedly on the fast track, I think everyone wanted to see how he did in his first pro season. His presence really helped with the Betemit trade, as Escobar could develop into a dependable utility guy that can play three infield positions.

I believe he wouldn't hurt to go back to AA next season, but he'll get a crack at impressing Bobby and winning a job out of spring training. With his hitting ability, who knows. But we've got to remember that he's still young in his development as a pro player, so another year in the minors won't hurt.

Could he contribute next season? Probably. But I think Prado and Aybar and Kelly Johnson are more likely candidates to replace Giles than Escobar - at least right now.

[Agente Libre]

Escobar hit .260 with 2 HR and played horrible defense in Double-A. I don't see how Escobar might win a job out of spring training next year.

[J.P]

Eduardo Morlan is in the playoffs as well, he lost yesterday, even though he only allowed one ER over 5 innings.

[Cubano100%]

Revising Rolando Viera's case against MLB, the judge did not rule neither in favor nor against Viera's claim that MLB discriminate against Cubans. The issue in my opinion is the law "Ley de Ajuste Cubano". According to the law, Cubans are not automatically U.S. resident once they arrive. They have to wait one year and one day in order to apply for it. Even after waiting for one year and one day, granting US residency to Cubans nationals is not automatic. Cuban nationals are still considered Cuban by the USA government.

Too bad that the case did not go the distance. I think Viera had a good chance to win it.


"The major league baseball draft includes all U.S. residents who have completed high school or the junior year of college. Baseball currently treats players who are living in the U.S. as residents even if they have not obtained official resident status. According to those standards, Viera, who currently trains in Tampa, was entered in the draft. Under Federal immigration law, Viera is not a legal U.S. resident and will not be able to apply for residency until next year. Most players who come to the U.S. from Cuba establish residency in another country prior to immigrating in order to achieve free agent status."
http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Articles%202001/CubanPlayerDeniedFreeAgency.htm


Does anybody know what the EEOC said after Viera's representatives mailed a complaint to that agency?
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news_story.jsp?article_id=mlb_20010604_courtca se_news&team_id=mlb

[cubaxpos]

Cubano, great job with the stats. Can you tell me what became of Alexis Cabrejas when he got here? Also, can you tell me about Jesus Ametller's? Great job, keep it up with those stats even though I am sure is a lot of work.

[J.P]

Here are Ametller's stats in the minors, last I heard of him, was last year, he was playing in Italy (other Cubans there were: Roberto Colina, Wilian Ortega, Juan Carlos Bruzon, and Julio Cesar Villalon)

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Jesus-Ametller.shtml


I think it is in the documentary about Industriales (banned in Cuba, cant recall the name) where they say that Alexis Cabrejas never made it past A.

[Agente Libre]

Is that the film where, at the end, some player -- I can't recall his name -- is driving down the highway in a beat up car that has no seats?

[J.P]

Revising Rolando Viera's case against MLB, the judge did not rule neither in favor nor against Viera's claim that MLB discriminate against Cubans. The issue in my opinion is the law "Ley de Ajuste Cubano". According to the law, Cubans are not automatically U.S. resident once they arrive. They have to wait one year and one day in order to apply for it. Even after waiting for one year and one day, granting US residency to Cubans nationals is not automatic. Cuban nationals are still considered Cuban by the USA government.

Too bad that the case did not go the distance. I think Viera had a good chance to win it.


"The major league baseball draft includes all U.S. residents who have completed high school or the junior year of college. Baseball currently treats players who are living in the U.S. as residents even if they have not obtained official resident status. According to those standards, Viera, who currently trains in Tampa, was entered in the draft. Under Federal immigration law, Viera is not a legal U.S. resident and will not be able to apply for residency until next year. Most players who come to the U.S. from Cuba establish residency in another country prior to immigrating in order to achieve free agent status."
http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Articles%202001/CubanPlayerDeniedFreeAgency.htm


Does anybody know what the EEOC said after Viera's representatives mailed a complaint to that agency?
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news_story.jsp?article_id=mlb_20010604_courtca se_news&team_id=mlb

Same thing me and Agente said, MLB has its own darn definition of a US resident.

[J.P]

Is that the film where, at the end, some player -- I can't recall his name -- is driving down the highway in a beat up car that has no seats?

Yesss, Lazaro Vargas I think he is, in his prime Cuba's second best third baseman behind Omar Linares.

[Agente Libre]

Yesss, Lazaro Vargas I think he is, in his prime Cuba's second best third baseman behind Omar Linares.

Yes, that's right. I actually watched that film with some Cuban players and they were laughing like crazy at the end.

[jalbright]

Revising Rolando Viera's case against MLB, the judge did not rule neither in favor nor against Viera's claim that MLB discriminate against Cubans. The issue in my opinion is the law "Ley de Ajuste Cubano". According to the law, Cubans are not automatically U.S. resident once they arrive. They have to wait one year and one day in order to apply for it. Even after waiting for one year and one day, granting US residency to Cubans nationals is not automatic. Cuban nationals are still considered Cuban by the USA government.

Too bad that the case did not go the distance. I think Viera had a good chance to win it.


"The major league baseball draft includes all U.S. residents who have completed high school or the junior year of college. Baseball currently treats players who are living in the U.S. as residents even if they have not obtained official resident status. According to those standards, Viera, who currently trains in Tampa, was entered in the draft. Under Federal immigration law, Viera is not a legal U.S. resident and will not be able to apply for residency until next year. Most players who come to the U.S. from Cuba establish residency in another country prior to immigrating in order to achieve free agent status."
http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/Articles%202001/CubanPlayerDeniedFreeAgency.htm


Does anybody know what the EEOC said after Viera's representatives mailed a complaint to that agency?
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news_story.jsp?article_id=mlb_20010604_courtca se_news&team_id=mlb

This is interesting, but links to a newspaper report and a MLB press release about a five year old decision don't answer much. I realize not much more may be readily available, though. Was the district court's opinion published in the law books? I've learned through experience not to be terribly trusting of newspaper reporters' analysis of legal cases. They get key points wrong a distressingly high percentage of the time. As Cubano pointed out, what happened with the EEOC? And have there been changes in MLB's rules regarding these issues in the past five years? If we could answer those questions, preferrably with some solid information, we might get closer to some real answers.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

I dont think much has changed, I mean Cuban defectors still have to go through the draft, and Cubans still have to wait a year to apply for residency, so MLB is still implementing its own private definition of a US resident. I'm actually surprised not more has been done in the courts.

[Cubano100%]

Yesss, Lazaro Vargas I think he is, in his prime Cuba's second best third baseman behind Omar Linares.

No way, J.P.

I understand your are from Havana but Grabiel Pierre from Santiago was better than Vargas by a mile.

Come on!

[Cubano100%]

Same thing me and Agente said, MLB has its own darn definition of a US resident.


I know J.P. That is why I have taking my plight to every place I can. I have been sending emails to major USA newspapers, the Players Union, etc for quite sometime.

I hope there is a reporter in this forum and write something about it.

If you do a search on the Web about Cuban baseball defector, many times this Thread comes on top. This is why I try to keep it alive.

[jalbright]

I dont think much has changed, I mean Cuban defectors still have to go through the draft, and Cubans still have to wait a year to apply for residency, so MLB is still implementing its own private definition of a US resident. I'm actually surprised not more has been done in the courts.

Here are two links that will help shed more light on the subject: A Pitch for Freedom (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_21_18/ai_87460060/pg_1) and Wikipedia's entry on Rolando Viera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolando_Viera)

One problem is the time issue. Teams may shy away from players pushing this issue, and guys like Viera (27 when he came over) can't afford to lose time out of the game. Viera still missed out, whether his one lost year mattered or not. Another issue is how much the fact this treatment of Cuban defectors is codified in the Collective Bargaining Agreement protects MLB from legal challenges to the unfairness of their procedure in this matter. I'm no labor law expert, but I'd guess the road for somebody challenging a collectively bargained approach is harder than if MLB had unilaterally imposed it. (Once again, clear evidence the players' union is at least partly to blame IMO). Finally, the potential cost of such a legal challenge is considerable unless somebody takes some kind of contingent arrangement. Basically, unless there's an agent with a law degree or a lawyer on retainer for a player agent, I can't see this happening. Obviously, the result in Viera's case (it doesn't appear to have gone much further than losing the injunction) shows the case is no slam dunk in the eyes of American courts.

Jim Albright

[Cubano100%]

Here are two links that will help shed more light on the subject: A Pitch for Freedom (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_21_18/ai_87460060/pg_1) and Wikipedia's entry on Rolando Viera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolando_Viera)

One problem is the time issue. Teams may shy away from players pushing this issue, and guys like Viera (27 when he came over) can't afford to lose time out of the game. Viera still missed out, whether his one lost year mattered or not. Another issue is how much the fact this treatment of Cuban defectors is codified in the Collective Bargaining Agreement protects MLB from legal challenges to the unfairness of their procedure in this matter. I'm no labor law expert, but I'd guess the road for somebody challenging a collectively bargained approach is harder than if MLB had unilaterally imposed it. (Once again, clear evidence the players' union is at least partly to blame IMO). Finally, the potential cost of such a legal challenge is considerable unless somebody takes some kind of contingent arrangement. Basically, unless there's an agent with a law degree or a lawyer on retainer for a player agent, I can't see this happening. Obviously, the result in Viera's case (it doesn't appear to have gone much further than losing the injunction) shows the case is no slam dunk in the eyes of American courts.

Jim Albright



The judge did not rule out on the merit of the case. He ruled out on Viera's request to be left out of the Draft. Viera had to keep the case going even though he was selected in the Draft. If he would have won the case, he would be entitled to collect some money from MLB for discrimination or something. The big picture in this case is the allege discrimination imposed by MLB on Cubans. In other words, Viera was prevented from being a free agent and negotiating with different teams when he was forced to enter the Draft.

I do not think the Union got involved on this at all. I think that a big name player such as Jose Contreras or El Duque could be better suited to do this than a lesser known player. I am sure MLB would avoid a public embarrassment over this.

As for the law, it is the same law that all Cubans go through. That is the same law I used to become US resident.

Maybe someone else can write why Viera did not keep the case going.

[Agente Libre]

Another issue is how much the fact this treatment of Cuban defectors is codified in the Collective Bargaining Agreement protects MLB from legal challenges to the unfairness of their procedure in this matter. I'm no labor law expert, but I'd guess the road for somebody challenging a collectively bargained approach is harder than if MLB had unilaterally imposed it. (Once again, clear evidence the players' union is at least partly to blame IMO).

Actually, MLB's "Cuba policy" was unilaterally invented by MLB after the Justice Dept. threatened them with a lawsuit back when Arocha defected in 1991 and tried to sign a contract. Unfortunately, the folks at the Justice Dept., while well-intentioned, didn't see the big picture -- e.g., that MLB's "remedy" for Cubans was actually disadvantageous vis-a-vis all other non-resident/foreign players.

The union likely hasn't gotten involved because it's been low-priority and, frankly, because they don't understand the issue. A lot of the early agents for Cubans in the 1990s were less than aggressive, and their acquiescence definitely set somewhat of a precedent and hurt the cause.

Finally, the potential cost of such a legal challenge is considerable unless somebody takes some kind of contingent arrangement.

This is exactly what derailed the Viera case. The player liked the idea of the lawsuit, but he didn't want to pay for it. Interestingly, now that Viera languishing in an independent league some 5-plus years later, I read some quotes that seem to imply he regrets dropping the lawsuit without litigating it to a decision on the merits.

Obviously, the result in Viera's case (it doesn't appear to have gone much further than losing the injunction) shows the case is no slam dunk in the eyes of American courts.

The burden of proof at the injunction stage is even higher than it is at the trial stage, so it would have been interesting to see that case proceed to a decision on the merits. Some of the judge's comments seem to imply Viera had a strong case; other comments seemed to indicate he thought MLB could make up whatever rules they want.

[Agente Libre]

The judge did not rule out on the merit of the case. He ruled out on Viera's request to be left out of the Draft. Viera had to keep the case going even though he was selected in the Draft. If he would have won the case, he would be entitled to collect some money from MLB for discrimination or something. The big picture in this case is the allege discrimination imposed by MLB on Cubans. In other words, Viera was prevented from being a free agent and negotiating with different teams when he was forced to enter the Draft.

Exactly right, counselor.

I do not think the Union got involved on this at all. I think that a big name player such as Jose Contreras or El Duque could be better suited to do this than a lesser known player. I am sure MLB would avoid a public embarrassment over this.

Maybe, but that would be a huge risk. If Contreras went to court and lost, he would have signed for $2 million in the draft instead of the $32 million he received as a free agent. I'm all for fighting for principles and all that, but $30 million is a lot to risk. That's why Viera was a good candidate: good enough to get drafted or sign as a free agent, but not so good that the lawsuit was a huge monetary risk for him.

Maybe someone else can write why Viera did not keep the case going.

There's an ESPN story from 2002 about it: He liked the lawsuit, but he never bothered to pay his lawyers for working on it, so finally they withdrew and Viera never bothered to keep the case alive.

[cubaxpos]

Sorry Cubano 100% but Gabriel Pierre was a big time bulto who hit for power but never for average. Vargas was a better all-around hitter and far better defensively. Never mind his great leadership skills. Come on now, I know you are from Camaguey and have to root for your fellow eastern people but I can make an argument for Miguel Caldes being better than Gabriel Pierre, who I might add played one year (or tried to play) for the Ruge Leones and did not make it.

[Cubano100%]

In my opinion, these are the most important paragragh from the article that Jim found.


The obstacles faced by these players first came to light two years ago
when the Baltimore Orioles' vice president for baseball operations,
Syd Thrift, told the Washington Times that Orioles owner Peter Angelos,
a class-action trial lawyer and big-time Democratic contributor who has
hosted an exhibition game with the Cuban national team, would not sign
Cuban defectors. "We--Mr. Angelos in particular--feel it is best not to
do anything that could be interpreted as being disrespectful or ...
encouraging players to defect," Thrift said. Critics charged that
the policy was discrimination based on "national origin"--a federal
civil-rights violation. At the request of Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.),
Janet Reno's Justice Department (DOJ) opened an investigation. Angelos
tried to back away, and the DOJ soon dropped the case.


I think the Orioles were sued for this. I despise Angelos and the Orioles for this. I knew about this and this is why I do not attend any Orioles game. He still does not go after high profile Cuban defectors and only have signed one player, Eddie Oropeza, at the end of last year.


Fitton notes that MLB twice banned former Cincinnati Reds owner Marge Schott from the game for a total of three years for racist comments, even though there was no evidence she discriminated against minority players. Yet it did not discipline Angelos after the Orioles official said the team would not sign Cuban defectors.


This is a double standard for sure.


Asked by INSIGHT why no action had been taken against Angelos,
MLB's general labor counsel Frank Coonelly angrily responded,
"You're really digging into old dirt if you want to bring up that crap!"
Coonelly said that if Viera really wanted to be a free agent he could have
waited for Castro to give him a tourist visa. Yes, "Mr. Viera could have
come to the United States on a tourist visa," Coonelly says. "There are
Cuban nationals who come to the United States on tourist visas and come
here to visit. That is not what Mr. Viera did."


The statements from this guy, Coonelly, is for domestic (American)comsumption. All Cubans know he is lying big time. Castro does not give visas to high profile players. By the way, since when someone has to get a visa from his own country to visit another?
Castro prevent high profile athletes to leave the country. If this is so easy, Cuba would be left without athletes. The same thing happens to Doctors and other professions.

But INSIGHT has learned that baseball's discrimination against those who flee Cuba is not limited to the Orioles but has become part of the hiring policies of MLB. Under baseball rules, Cuban defectors who come to the United States now are the only foreign players not allowed to become free agents. A whole set of barriers has been erected to make it more difficult for Cuban defectors to advance to the major leagues than for players from any other country.
"They're treated differently from foreign players, and they're treated
differently from the domestic players; they're a unique class of player,
there's no question about it," says Joe Kehoskie, a sports agent who
specializes in representing baseball players from Latin America and who
has been interviewed on ESPN as an expert on baseball in Cuba. "Baseball
denies it, but it's just like denying that the sun's going to come up
tomorrow or the Earth is round. It's just apparent to anybody who looks
at it that Cubans are a special class and that rules were made up
specifically for them."

This is part of the world wide romantism in favor of the Cuban revolution and that guy down there. The same silent agreements is in place with Japan. The same thing happens when Puerto Rico left Livan Hernandez out of its roster during the WBC. Livan met most of the eligibility requirements even more so than some Italian players that never care to visit Italy nor have anything that attach them to Italy.

Under baseball rules, all players who are "legal residents" of the
United States are subject to an amateur draft in which an MLB franchise
may sign them exclusively to play for its major- or minor-league teams.
The player cannot shop his services as a "free agent" until he has spent
seven years in the minor leagues or six in the major leagues for that
franchise. But foreign players with foreign residence are not subject
to the draft rule and immediately can become free agents and negotiate
with all teams for the best deal.

This is part of MLB to make the road harder for Cuban defectors.


Baseball maintains that Cuban ballplayers should be classified as residents
of the United Stated because they don't go back to Cuba when they defect.
"The determination that [a Cuban defector] was to be `considered a resident
of the United States' was not only reasonable but, indeed, the only logical
determination [MLB] could have made ... there being no other country in the
world of which [a Cuban defector] could properly have been considered a
resident," says a brief flied for MLB.

But Gura argues that although Cuban emigres may reside legally in the
United States, they are not actually "legal residents" but "refugees"
subject to parole. "The only difference between Cubans and non-Cuban
foreigners is that the former arrive in this country as refugees, while
the latter travel on tourist visas; neither are legal residents," Gura
argues in the lawsuit.

The law is clear. Cubans have to wait one year and one day to apply for US residency. Anyone who knows how to read can comprehend this except the MLB racists.

Owners and the players' union have agreed to this distinction because
domestic players are scouted in high school or college and presumably
are well-known. Players from foreign countries often are not as visible
and have more need to showcase their talents. Dozens of foreign players,
including Japan's Ichiro Suzuki--the 2001 American League Most Valuable
Player and Rookie of the Year who plays right field for the
Seattle Mariners--tour the United States extensively to meet with teams
and negotiate for top salaries.

Good for him. How about the Cubans?


One of Kehoskie's former clients is Viera, now a minor-league player
who is suing the MLB commissioner under the Civil Rights Act of 1964,
alleging unlawful discrimination based upon national origin.


When INSIGHT noted the well-documented fact that Castro keeps a tight
rein on his baseball players, regarding it as a blow to national pride
when they defect, and that "El Duque" had to make a daring escape through
shark-infested waters, Coonelly expressed disbelief. "I'm not sure how much
of that is true," he said.

This Coonelly guy is a ...... How can someone deny this?

Fitton says it's sad that baseball still hasn't learned the lessons taught
50 years ago by Jackie Robinson--that in America's national pastime players
of all races, creeds and national origins should be given a fair shot. "You
would think that, with its history of discrimination, baseball would be
sensitive to these concerns," he says. "But Cubans who have resisted Castro
are treated as second-class citizens."


MLB has never learned any lessons. Baseball is the worst managed sport in America. This is one reason why it is not considered the number one sport anymore. Discrimination against blacks and foreigners in its early beginnings, steroids recently and now discrimination against Cubans are just three things that ilustrate this.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_21_18/ai_87460060/pg_1



MLB policy against Cubans is very unamerican indeed.

[Cubano100%]

Can Viera sue MLB again?

How about other defectors that were selected in the Draft?

I am sure they can.

Some Cuban defectors that have gone to the draft are:

Yunel Escobar
Jose Cordero
Hassan Pena
Osbeck Castillo
Amaury Casanas

[jalbright]

Cubano,

While the representative of MLB quoted in the INSIGHT article is either a complete idiot (certainly a possibility in MLB) or a public relations flack spinning (a/k/a lying) a story, I disagree that MLBs policy is racist. I don't think that has anything to do with it. They're looking to take financial advantage of anyone they can. That's greed, not racism. Hardly more noble, though.

Now I'll work my way through some other comments on the INSIGHT article.

Maybe, but that would be a huge risk. If Contreras went to court and lost, he would have signed for $2 million in the draft instead of the $32 million he received as a free agent. I'm all for fighting for principles and all that, but $30 million is a lot to risk. That's why Viera was a good candidate: good enough to get drafted or sign as a free agent, but not so good that the lawsuit was a huge monetary risk for him.

There's an ESPN story from 2002 about it: [Viera] liked the lawsuit, but he never bothered to pay his lawyers for working on it, so finally they withdrew and Viera never bothered to keep the case alive.

Amen, Agente, Amen. You hit the nail on the head there.

The judge did not rule out on the merit of the case. He ruled out on Viera's request to be left out of the Draft. Viera had to keep the case going even though he was selected in the Draft. If he would have won the case, he would be entitled to collect some money from MLB for discrimination or something. The big picture in this case is the allege discrimination imposed by MLB on Cubans. In other words, Viera was prevented from being a free agent and negotiating with different teams when he was forced to enter the Draft.

Viera ultimately lost because if he didn't win then, he had to pay to see it through--which he wasn't willing to do. Also, in a technical legal sense, the judge had to decide whether Viera had a "slam dunk" case. That's what Agente is talking about when he talks about the higher standard for an injunction. [You needn't lecture me on the law--I not only passed the bar but practiced for 15 years before choosing to leave the profession.] If he thought Viera did, he should have awarded the injunction to Viera exempting him from the draft. He obviously did not see the case in that light and therefore the result was as you describe.

Actually, MLB's "Cuba policy" was unilaterally invented by MLB after the Justice Dept. threatened them with a lawsuit back when Arocha defected in 1991 and tried to sign a contract. Unfortunately, the folks at the Justice Dept., while well-intentioned, didn't see the big picture -- e.g., that MLB's "remedy" for Cubans was actually disadvantageous vis-a-vis all other non-resident/foreign players.

I won't argue about whether or not initially MLB's policy was unilateral. However, the INSIGHT article clearly indicates that said policy was part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement by the time of the Viera suit. In that sense, the union's acquiescence to the MLB policy sold out potential future members who happened to defect from Cuba. Maybe if there were more than the few defectors a year, the union would have this higher on its radar screen. It also would help if there were some prominent Cuban defector/players out there speaking out about this issue, but I haven't heard much from the best candidates to fill that role like the Hernandezes or Contreras. If they've talked about it publicly, they haven't seen fit to be the point men of a sustained public campaign on the issue. It may take a good bit of courage to stand up in this way under the circumstances--but until somebody with some clout does or there are more raw numbers of Cuban defectors in the union, the union isn't going to push for a change. And if the union doesn't do so, it won't happen.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Can Viera sue MLB again?

How about other defectors that were selected in the Draft?

I am sure they can.

Some Cuban defectors that have gone to the draft are:

Yunel Escobar
Jose Cordero
Hassan Pena
Osbeck Castillo
Amaury Casanas

I'd say Viera had his chance, and has given it up permanently. It's possible the others could, but, without researching the issue, it's also possible that if a defector wants to challenge this procedure, he at least has to do what Viera did, namely, file a legal objection to it in advance. I tend to think that if somebody could successfully maintain the suit after going through the draft without objection, it would have happened already. My educated guess is that going through the draft without filing a legal objection amounts to a waiver of the claim. However, that is no more than an educated guess as to the viability of such a suit.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

Jim -- MLB's definition of "resident" is in the CBA, but their "Cuba policy" is not. It was issued as a memo back in 1992 or 1993 and has remained in effect as such, without ever being added to the ML Rules or the CBA.

Re: Viera, I'm almost positive his case was dismissed with prejudice. (For the non-lawyers, that means he can't sue again.)

[Cubano100%]

I won't argue about whether or not initially MLB's policy was unilateral. However, the INSIGHT article clearly indicates that said policy was part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement by the time of the Viera suit. In that sense, the union's acquiescence to the MLB policy sold out potential future members who happened to defect from Cuba. Maybe if there were more than the few defectors a year, the union would have this higher on its radar screen. It also would help if there were some prominent Cuban defector/players out there speaking out about this issue, but I haven't heard much from the best candidates to fill that role like the Hernandezes or Contreras. If they've talked about it publicly, they haven't seen fit to be the point men of a sustained public campaign on the issue. It may take a good bit of courage to stand up in this way under the circumstances--but until somebody with some clout does or there are more raw numbers of Cuban defectors in the union, the union isn't going to push for a change. And if the union doesn't do so, it won't happen.

Jim Albright

They do not do it because fear of reprisals against their relatives by Castro.

[Cubano100%]

Sorry Cubano 100% but Gabriel Pierre was a big time bulto who hit for power but never for average. Vargas was a better all-around hitter and far better defensively. Never mind his great leadership skills. Come on now, I know you are from Camaguey and have to root for your fellow eastern people but I can make an argument for Miguel Caldes being better than Gabriel Pierre, who I might add played one year (or tried to play) for the Ruge Leones and did not make it.

Cubaxpos:

Do you really think Vargas was better than Pierre?

Despite Vargas playing 4 more years, Pierre had superior numbers than him. Only Vargas is better than Pierre in ave, doubles and triples. However, 8 more doubles in 4 more years is nothing. Pierre was much better defensibly than Vargas. In the power department, there was not much of a contest between the two.

This is the way I would rate the best Cuban third baseman of the 90's.





Player Series Ave H 2B 3B HR RBI SLU BB IW SO defensive ave

Omar Linares 20 368 2195 327 54 404 1221 644 1327 235 675 948
Gabriel Pierre 18 295 1577 302 17 306 1043 530 972 209 914 956
Miguel Caldes 14 289 1220 176 34 176 683 472 435 80 618 942
Lazaro Vargas 22 317 2132 310 50 108 1064 426 983 66 479 943
Andy Morales 9 319 740 151 15 54 374 466 207 30 237 964
E. Cardenas 19 317 2077 273 23 28 640 379 772 37 433 952
Rafael Acebey 21 285 1649 243 48 138 772 416 262 34 776 943




Eduardo Cardenas


For the non Cubans here. Miguel Caldes played for my hometown team, the Camaguey Ceramists. He died in a car accident I believe. Linares played for the Pinar del Rio Green Sox. Pierre for the Santiago de Cuba Wasps. Vargas for the Havana Lions. Morales for the Havana Cowboys. Cardenas for the Matanzas Crocodiles. Acebey played for the Villa Clara Orange.

As you guys can see, the Yankees did not do their homework on Andy Morales. He only hit 6 HR per season in Cuba. But they could have call me and for a few pennies I would had given them the info. :rolleyes:

[cubaxpos]

Cubano:

I don't really think there's much of an argument there in the statistic department. Now, Vargas WAS NOT a power hitter. His trademark was to drive the ball to right field and get on base. He was never asked to be the homerun hitter Pierre was.
Your second point was defense. I don't know how much you saw of Pierre but this kid was WAY worst than Vargas, and I mean WAY worst. I don't have the stats but Pierre had no reach whatsoever and I remember a playoff game back in the very early 90's where Santiago lost thanks to three errors he commited.
Pierre was a very strong player who belted a large amount of homers, but that was it. He can thank aluminum bats for his 295 career average (he used to strike out a lot, something Vargas never did) and huge amount of homers (and I would say to a lesser scale to sub-standard and very small stadiums that abound in the eastern stadiums where he played the bulk of his games). Also, like I said, I don't have the stats but I don't think he played more than 2, if any, seasons with wooden bats.
Like I said, I can even make an argument for Miguel Caldes being better than Pierre. Caldes was a very good hitter with a cannon for an arm who played stellar defense. He made cuba's national team way more times than Pierre did but unfortunately he found his death at a railroad crossing when he was hit by a train. With regards to Eduardo Cardenas I can tell you that he was from Havana but had to go to Matanzas because Vargas was playing third for the Industriales and they were not about to sit the latter in favor of him. Therefore, he had to leave for Matanzas where he went on to have a very decent career, not spectacular (and if I am not mistaken he never made it to the National Team) but very solid. He used to be my favorite player outside Havana.

[Cubano100%]

Cubaxpos:

I published the stats. Just move the bar to the right. Pierre (956) had better defensive ave than Vargas (943). Pierre was strong. For MLB purposes, Pierre would have made it and play for several years. I can not say the same thing about a 3B with little power. I was in Cuba those years.

I have never been a Santiago de Cuba fan. I only rooted for Camaguey and those Industriales teams from the late 80's and early 90's. Pierre and Vargas played with aluminum bats for most of their careers.


Different people see things differently. I think this is the case here. In a Cuban forum, I made a poll about the best Cuban 3b of that time. Pierre was voted second behind Linares.

[jalbright]

Jim -- MLB's definition of "resident" is in the CBA, but their "Cuba policy" is not. It was issued as a memo back in 1992 or 1993 and has remained in effect as such, without ever being added to the ML Rules or the CBA.

I'm not following the distinction between the two. Please explain the difference(s).

Jim Albright

[cubaxpos]

Cubaxpos:

I published the stats. Just move the bar to the right. Pierre (956) had better defensive ave than Vargas (943). Pierre was strong. For MLB purposes, Pierre would have made it and play for several years. I can not say the same thing about a 3B with little power. I was in Cuba those years.

I have never been a Santiago de Cuba fan. I only rooted for Camaguey and those Industriales teams from the late 80's and early 90's. Pierre and Vargas played with aluminum bats for most of their careers.


Different people see things differently. I think this is the case here. In a Cuban forum, I made a poll about the best Cuban 3b of that time. Pierre was voted second behind Linares.

It was my bad that I didn't see the defensive stats. Thank you very much for posting them. Like you said, different people see things differently. According to the stats, Gabriel Pierre was the best player of the two.
Now, I bet you can ask anyone (other than those in that forum you were talking about and yourself) who saw them play and they would've taken Vargas in a heartbeat. I was really surprised to read that people took him behind Linares as the second 3B of all times. I have really never heard such statement. To me, it was Linares, Vargas, closely behind him Caldes, Acebey, and maybe Pierre slightly over Cardenas (Andy Morales was never a really good player, only after Pierre retired is that he surfaced in that game against the Orioles).
Regarding the aluminum bats, Vargas retired just a couple of years ago. Therefore, he did play several more years than Pierre with wooden bats. In my opinion, while Vargas could've been a backup ala Mike Mordecai (he also knew how to play SS and with a little of more work could've learned how to play 2B), Pierre would have never gone beyond AA here. He struck out a lot and that I know of he never played anything but, in my opinion, mediocre at best 3B.
I believe we are comparing here players like Tony Gonzalez (CF for Industriales in the early 80's through the early 90's) and Antonio Sarduy (LF and DH in the same years). I am pretty sure that Antonio Sarduy easily dominates all hitting categories, as well defensive stats, but batting average. Then again, they were two different type of players and each one had a different function in their teams.
However, like you said, everyone is entitled to his own opinion and that's the beauty of baseball.

[cubaxpos]

Here are Ametller's stats in the minors, last I heard of him, was last year, he was playing in Italy (other Cubans there were: Roberto Colina, Wilian Ortega, Juan Carlos Bruzon, and Julio Cesar Villalon)

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Jesus-Ametller.shtml


I think it is in the documentary about Industriales (banned in Cuba, cant recall the name) where they say that Alexis Cabrejas never made it past A.

Thank you very much for the info J.P. I can't really believe this guy made it to AAA, he wasn't really a very good ballplayer. I'm shocked Cabrejas never made it beyond class A, he was one of my favorite players ever, of course, LF with little power is not a very good thing here.
Do you know where I can find the stats of those players who played in Italy?

[J.P]

Comparing Pierre and Vargas is like comparing Jeter and Tejada, two different type of players. Cubano, the Cuban Baseball Federation surely agreed with me and cubaxpos, as Vargas was time and time again chosen over Pierre to back up Linares in the National Team, and as a matter of fact, when Kindelan retired, Vargas was moved to 1b to fill that hole. Remember, stats dont always tell the whole story.

[J.P]

Thank you very much for the info J.P. I can't really believe this guy made it to AAA, he wasn't really a very good ballplayer. I'm shocked Cabrejas never made it beyond class A, he was one of my favorite players ever, of course, LF with little power is not a very good thing here.
Do you know where I can find the stats of those players who played in Italy?

You mean the Italy stats? If so, I believe you can Google their names and find some info, I've found pictures of them playing in Italy before.

[Agente Libre]

I'm not following the distinction between the two. Please explain the difference(s).

Just like in every business, not every single rule/regulation is collectively bargained. MLB's "Cuba policy" has, thus far, been dictated entirely by MLB, without involvement by, or negotiation with, the union. As a result, the rule/policy does not appear in the CBA between major league owners and players.

I assume it's remained this way because a very, very small percentage of Cuban defectors sign major league contracts (as opposed to minor league contracts), and minor league players have no union and are not covered by the CBA.

[jalbright]

Just like in every business, not every single rule/regulation is collectively bargained. MLB's "Cuba policy" has, thus far, been dictated entirely by MLB, without involvement by, or negotiation with, the union. As a result, the rule/policy does not appear in the CBA between major league owners and players.

I assume it's remained this way because a very, very small percentage of Cuban defectors sign major league contracts (as opposed to minor league contracts), and minor league players have no union and are not covered by the CBA.

I don't believe you are correct that the minor leaguers are not covered by the CBA. That is one of the union's great strengths, as it limits MLBs ability to put credible scab teams on the field. That was why they didn't field scabs in 1994-1995. Further proof of this is that lifetime minor leaguers have the right to become free agents after seven years' service as mentioned in the INSIGHT article. It's important, or else some Ryan Howards of the world could be indefinitely locked in the minors. Howard might not be up yet, but he'd have had to get a shot in the majors somewhere really soon because of that provision. The union permits the major league's way of dealing with Cuban defectors. The INSIGHT article confirms this. If that's what you mean by MLB's "Cuban policy" instead of something else, I believe you are mistaken. If you mean something else, please explain.

Jim Albright

[Agente Libre]

I don't believe you are correct that the minor leaguers are not covered by the CBA. That is one of the union's great strengths, as it limits MLBs ability to put credible scab teams on the field. That was why they didn't field scabs in 1994-1995.

Minor league players are not union members until they become members of a major league 40-man roster. Thus, minor league players are generally not covered in the CBA at all, but rather in the Major League Rules.

Minor league players haven't received a pay raise in something like 20 years precisely because of their weak (no) bargaining strength.

As for 1994-'95, there were plenty of minor leaguers who crossed the line and played as scabs. As of last week, 7 of them are on major league rosters. (Admittedly, most young minor leaguers did not cross. It was mostly journeymen types did it.)

Further proof of this is that lifetime minor leaguers have the right to become free agents after seven years' service as mentioned in the INSIGHT article. It's important, or else some Ryan Howards of the world could be indefinitely locked in the minors. Howard might not be up yet, but he'd have had to get a shot in the majors somewhere really soon because of that provision.

Sort of. The major and minor league Rule 5 drafts protect players like that much better than minor league free agency does.

The union permits the major league's way of dealing with Cuban defectors. The INSIGHT article confirms this. If that's what you mean by MLB's "Cuban policy" instead of something else, I believe you are mistaken. If you mean something else, please explain.

Again, sort of. The union hasn't officially bargained away Cuban defectors' rights or agreed to MLB's policy, perhaps out of indifference but more likely because their jurisdiction is limited by the fact that less than 1 defector in 10 signs a major league contract.

[Cubano100%]

As for 1994-'95, there were plenty of minor leaguers who crossed the line and played as scabs. As of last week, 7 of them are on major league rosters. (Admittedly, most young minor leaguers did not cross. It was mostly journeymen types did it.)



I think Alexis Cabrejas crossed the line during the strike.

[Cubano100%]

J.P. and Cubaxpos:



I know J.P. is from Havana and probably Cubaxpos is from Havana too. The numbers do not lie. Pierre's number were by far superior than Vargas. We are talking about 18 season vs 22 seasons. We are not comparing 2-5 seasons. Do you guys really think Pierre was that bad putting those numbers for 18 seasons?

Grabiel Pierre had an MLB body. Vargas' thighs were equivalent to Pierre's biceps.

You guys know very well that not always the best players are selected for the Cuban team. Can you guys explain me what these two players are doing in the Cuban team? CF Carlos Tavares and Infielder Rudy Reyes

Both players played in the WBC and the Olympic Qualifier in Cuba. Both players happen to be from Havana. You guys know that players from Havana recieve more considerations than others.

The Cuban Baseball Federation is a joke. Cubans often strongly critize the decisions of this entity when selecting players for the Cuban team. Communists players often find their way to the Cuban team. Not always the players with better stats are selected. Not only that, Havana City is the only province with two teams giving them a competitive advantage over the rest of the provinces. While young prospects from Havana are devloping in the National Series, the rest of the prospects from other provinces are smoking cigars somewhere in Cuba. These are just a few reasons why the Cuban Baseball Federation is a joke. As a matter of fact, the Cuban Baseball Federation is worst than MLB officials when making decisions. :laugh Does this tell anything?



Let's get the opinion of others here. To the non Cubans here, who was the better player between Vargas and Pierre? I understand that you guys never saw them play. Does anybody agree with me that 18 seasons is enough time to compare players?

[Cubano100%]

Dominican Republic


AGUILAS DEL CIBAO

OF ALEX SANCHEZ
RHP JARED FERNANDEZ


LEONES DEL ESCOGIDO

LHP RAUL VALDEZ


TRIGRES DEL LICEY

RHP HENRY OWENS


ESTRELLAS ORIENTALES

1B JUAN CARLOS DIAZ


GIGANTES DEL CIBAO

C BRAYAN PEÑA
LHP FRANCISLEY BUENO

[Cubano100%]

This is interesting, but links to a newspaper report and a MLB press release about a five year old decision don't answer much. I realize not much more may be readily available, though. Was the district court's opinion published in the law books? I've learned through experience not to be terribly trusting of newspaper reporters' analysis of legal cases. They get key points wrong a distressingly high percentage of the time. As Cubano pointed out, what happened with the EEOC? And have there been changes in MLB's rules regarding these issues in the past five years? If we could answer those questions, preferrably with some solid information, we might get closer to some real answers.

Jim Albright


My educated guess is that the EEOC told MLB that its treatment of Cuban defectors was against USA laws.

[J.P]

J.P. and Cubaxpos:



I know J.P. is from Havana and probably Cubaxpos is from Havana too. The numbers do not lie. Pierre's number were by far superior than Vargas. We are talking about 18 season vs 22 seasons. We are not comparing 2-5 seasons. Do you guys really think Pierre was that bad putting those numbers for 18 seasons?

Grabiel Pierre had an MLB body. Vargas' thighs were equivalent to Pierre's biceps.

You guys know very well that not always the best players are selected for the Cuban team. Can you guys explain me what these two players are doing in the Cuban team? CF Carlos Tavares and Infielder Rudy Reyes

Both players played in the WBC and the Olympic Qualifier in Cuba. Both players happen to be from Havana. You guys know that players from Havana recieve more considerations than others.

The Cuban Baseball Federation is a joke. Cubans often strongly critize the decisions of this entity when selecting players for the Cuban team. Communists players often find their way to the Cuban team. Not always the players with better stats are selected. Not only that, Havana City is the only province with two teams giving them a competitive advantage over the rest of the provinces. While young prospects from Havana are devloping in the National Series, the rest of the prospects from other provinces are smoking cigars somewhere in Cuba. These are just a few reasons why the Cuban Baseball Federation is a joke. As a matter of fact, the Cuban Baseball Federation is worst than MLB officials when making decisions. :laugh Does this tell anything?



Let's get the opinion of others here. To the non Cubans here, who was the better player between Vargas and Pierre? I understand that you guys never saw them play. Does anybody agree with me that 18 seasons is enough time to compare players?


Again, for someone who never saw them play, Pierre has better stats than Vargas, but then again, if you never saw Jeter and Tejada play, and you were presented with their stats, everybody would pick Tejada, like I said, they are two different types of players, stats dont tell the whole story. As to the part where Communists players are selected over "doubtful" players for the National Team, that is true, but it doesnt apply here, since Pierre was selected time and time again for Team Cuba B, so in no way was he untrusted. As to Habana having two teams, and giving them an advantage etc, you might have an argument, but again, I dont see how that affects Vargas being selected over Pierre for the National Team.

[J.P]

Good Cuban contingent in DR this winter :dance

[J.P]

Great start by El Duke yesterday, he is 8-6, 4.22 ERA with the Mets, if you take out the start where he was left out there for 11 ER's in 4 innings, his ERA with the team would be 3.57.

[Cubano100%]

Again, for someone who never saw them play, Pierre has better stats than Vargas, but then again, if you never saw Jeter and Tejada play, and you were presented with their stats, everybody would pick Tejada, like I said, they are two different types of players, stats dont tell the whole story. As to the part where Communists players are selected over "doubtful" players for the National Team, that is true, but it doesnt apply here, since Pierre was selected time and time again for Team Cuba B, so in no way was he untrusted. As to Habana having two teams, and giving them an advantage etc, you might have an argument, but again, I dont see how that affects Vargas being selected over Pierre for the National Team.



Players from Havana are given a fast track to the Cuban team. Linares was the regular 3B for the Cuban team. Vargas was selected as an utility. That does not mean he was better than Pierre. Pierre was just a 3B. Therefore, Cuban baseball officials selected Vargas over Pierre because Vargas could play other positions not because he was better. If Linares was not there, Pierre would have been selected the starting 3B and Vargas would had been an utility still.

My reference to Havana City having two teams is to illustrate how Havana City is usually favored over other provinces. Players from the capital are often favored over players from other provinces as well. In my opinion, Vargas is just one example of this.

[J.P]

Players from Havana are given a fast track to the Cuban team. Linares was the regular 3B for the Cuban team. Vargas was selected as an utility. That does not mean he was better than Pierre. Pierre was just a 3B. Therefore, Cuban baseball officials selected Vargas over Pierre because Vargas could play other positions not because he was better. If Linares was not there, Pierre would have been selected the starting 3B and Vargas would had been an utility still.

My reference to Havana City having to teams is to illustrate how Havana City is usually favored over other provinces. Players from the capital are often favored over players from other provinces as well. In my opinion, Vargas is just one example of this.

Thats funny Cubano, specially when you look at the starting lineup for the powerhouse Cuban team of the early 90's (Vargas' prime), the only starter from a HaBana(get your spelling right :laugh ) team was German Mesa, and I dont think Team Cuba needed much of an utility infielder since Padilla was on board, Linares could play SS, and Ulacia was in some of those teams.

[Cubano100%]

Thats funny Cubano, specially when you look at the starting lineup for the powerhouse Cuban team of the early 90's (Vargas' prime), the only starter from a HaBana(get your spelling right :laugh ) team was German Mesa, and I dont think Team Cuba needed much of an utility infielder since Padilla was on board, Linares could play SS, and Ulacia was in some of those teams.


Somehow Havana is written with V and not B in English. The official language of this forum is English. :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana

Those powerhouse Cuban teams had to include somebody from Havana so the Havanians could not complain about discrimination.

By the way, positions such as 3b, 1B, LF and RF require power.
Do you believe a player with no power like Vargas could have started in the Majors?

Pierre's numbers are far superior than Vargas' numbers. This is not even a close. But as you say, the numbers not always tell the whole picture. Wasn't Vargas a Diputado (Delegate) to the Cuban National Assembly? Not only that, Vargas was a payaso (clown). You know what I am writing about.



Gabriel Pierre
http://www.cubancards.com/images/gallery/GabrielPierre.jpg

A fiery slugger from four Santiago de Cuba champion clubs, the third baseman last played in 2002. At the end of ‘03, he was ranked as eighth in Serie Nacional home runs with 306. A member of Cuba’s 2000 Olympic squad. :waving
cubancards.com

[cubaxpos]

I think you hit it right on the nail J.P., comparing Vargas to Pierre is like comparing Tejada to Jeter. Like you said, they were two completely type of players. Like J.P. said, the fact that Vargas was chosen over and over again over another Delegate (Pierre and the whole infield of Santiago: Kindelan, Pacheco, Evenecer Godinez and Gabriel Pierre, as well as C Luis Enrique Padro were also delegates to the Cuban Communist Party Assembly) tells you the whole story. We all know the Cuban Baseball Federation is a joke. Not only Cubans strongly criticize the decisions of the federation when selecting the players to the National Team. The very same Players who have to endure a long season while playing under really bad living conditions also get really weary of their decisions. However, nobody ever complained about Pierre not going to the National Team over Vargas because everybody knew he was not even above the best 3B after Vargas, like I said before, in my opinion Miguel Caldes.
I honestly believe his stats were way inflated due to the fact he was playing with aluminum bats, facing the great pitchers of Guantanamo, Las Tunas, Holguin and Granma over 60 games a season (on the other hand you have Vargas who had to face the Rogelio Garciassess and Jorge Luis Valdezess of the world over the same period of games) plus he was playing in relatively smaller stadiums. Yes, I really believe he was way worst than Lazaro Vargas.
Cubano, I am from Havana and I can tell you that I have the chance to know Vargas off the field and he’s not a clown. I remember that everybody used to call him a “postalita” (a player who used to take plays off and not gives his all on the field) but I can assure you that in those teams nobody gave his all like Vargas. Not only was the captain of all the great Industriales teams, but also a player that everybody went to when a piece of advise was needed. Yes, he was a delegate but the list of delegates also included Javier Mendez, Juan Padilla, German Mesa, Luis Garcia, Armando Ferreiro, just to name a few. Yes, his thighs were comparable to Gabriel Pierre’s biceps but he played the game the right way and was, by far, a way better all-around player than Gabriel Pierre, hands down. Like I said, I was shocked to learn that there were people that thought that Pierre was better than Vargas. I have never heard that before.
To answer your question as to why Rudy Reyes and Carlos Tabares are on the Cuban team I can tell you that there is only one 3B better than Rudy Reyes in the island right now, Michel Enriquez (who in my opinion is only slightly better right now; next year Rudy Reyes will be better even though they will continue to take the player who is a slam-dunk not to defect). Also, Rudy Reyes plays stellarly 2B and SS, and he can hit for both power and average. To me, he’s a 5-tool player. I was in Cuba while this year’s final between las avispas and los leones and in the fifth game of the series, played in Latinoamericano (I was there of course rooting for the blues), he single handedly won the game with two stellar defensive plays and tied the game with a homerun in the bottm of the 4th or 5th inning. Yuyo Reyes did it all. Carlos Tabares is old now. However, he was who took over CF for Industriales when Javier Mendez left and he did a maginificent job for 10 years roaming the outfield for Industriales. Despite this fact, the Cuban Federation kept on selecting Jose Estrada from Matanzas to the National Team. Therefore, the assumption that Havana’s players were favored over other provinces’ players to me it’s something that is not accurate. Same thing is happening right now with other players (i.e. Industriales’ 1B Alexander Mayeta was only selected recently to the team because we have now Anglada, Industriales’s manager during the National Series, as the manager of the National team. Otherwise, they would have selected Borrero or some other eastern provinces player. The latter players are less prone to defect than players from Havana).
Cubano, you also talked about Havana having two teams. Well, it just so happens that the capital of our island has a population of over 2 million people. Also, by far is the most developed city of the country. Like you said, players from other provinces do nothing but to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol because unfortunately that’s the only mean there’s in the island to alienate from the terrible situation they live in since there are a lot of poverty in their provinces. Due to the two reasons I gave above, there has to be more baseball players than anywhere else. I am going to remind you also that for 2 or 3 years it was not Industriales making it to the playoffs but Metropolitanos, a testament to the fact that is justified the presence of two teams in Havana. Try to do that with a second team of Santiago, the second largest city in Cuba. There is no way that they can field two competitive teams in the National Series. Granted, Metropolitanos has been a joke over the last few years but what happened is that they got stripped of the best players by Industriales, like they used to do before. Well, is too bad that Industriales is the equivalent to the Yankees, they have to field the best team in Havana because everybody in the country follows them. People either hate them or love them.
Also, the assumption that Pierre would’ve started over Vargas in the National Team had Linares would’ve not been there is totally wrong. J.P. hit it right on the nail by stating that Padilla and Ulacia were always there (granted, they were communists too, as Pierre also was mind you) so they were taking as their second 3B, not as a utility. Once again, it’s just a perception and a matter of opionion. I am from Havana but I am not biased in my judgement of Cuban players. It just so happens that I love players who play the game the right way and in my opinion Pierre was light years behind Vargas in this aspect of the game.

[J.P]

Those powerhouse Cuban teams had to include somebody from Havana so the Havanians could not complain about discrimination.



Then how come the only starter from Habana on the team was German Mesa?????? Why was Jose Estrada taken to play CF in place of Javier Mendez?????

[cubaxpos]

Jose Estrada was taken over and over again over Javier Mendez, Tony Gonzalez, and over Carlos Tabares.

[Cubano100%]

Listen, Habaneros.

I am from Camaguey and see things from another perspective because I am not neither from Havana nor Santiago. The numbers Pierre put were by far superior than Vargas. In Cuba all the teams play against each other. Metropolitanos has been a joke as well as la Isla de la Juventud for quite sometime. Therefore, Vargas was facing bad pitching too.

Actually Cubaxpos, Vargas came one vote ahead of Pierre in the poll conducted in the Cuban forum. However, half of the peolple are from Havana.

Vargas had no power. Therefore, he had cero chance to play for a long time or secure a starting job in the Majors playing 3B. That is a fact.

The numbers are there. You guys have chosen to ignore them. It is not even close. You keep bringing other arguments about how Vargas was better. Not all the players are Delegates to the Parliament. I think Vargas, Linares, Victor Mesa and Pacheco were.

Vargas was a better cheerleader by far. :waving




This is a Thread for Cuban players that have defected. Keep those two guys out of here please. :rolleyes:

[Cubano100%]

Then how come the only starter from Habana on the team was German Mesa?????? Why was Jose Estrada taken to play CF in place of Javier Mendez?????



Because all of them could only hit short line drives. They lacked power. Industriales scored 2 runs and then Villa Clara, Santiago or Pinar del Rio scored 6.

Mendez could not reach 2B with a throw nor steal bases. Estrada had a cannon for an arm and could steal bases.


How many crown did those Industriales team won in the late 80's and early 90's?

Even with the presence of one of the best pitching staff for a Cuban team in any era, they could not win. At that time, they were the Cuban version of the Atlanta Braves.

RHP Lazaro Valle (better than el Duque and the number one starter)
RHP El Duque
RHP Rene Arocha
LHP Pablo Miguel Abreu
LHP Ivan Alvarez
LHP Osvaldo Fernandez
RHP Euclides Rojas
RHP Francisco Despaigne
RHP Blas Bocourt


Oh, I made you remember all the great ones. :coffee

[Cubano100%]

Super Kendry Morales is back dancing with the wolves. Mike Scioscia please, insert him in the line up against righties and lefties. No platoon experiment with Morales.

[J.P]

Because all of them could only hit short line drives. They lacked power. Industriales scored 2 runs and then Villa Clara, Santiago or Pinar del Rio scored 6.

Mendez could not reach 2B with a throw nor steal bases. Estrada had a cannon for an arm and could steal bases.




But according to your theory, it shouldnt matter whether they were better that the other candidates or not, they should had been there because they were from Habana, and players from Habana get a fast track to the team........ Speed (which wasnt much of a factor in those Cuban teams since they were outslugging the kids from the other teams) and arm were about the only two things that Jose Estrada did better than Javier, in that period of time Javier was the best defensive CF in Cuba, and he was a far better hitter than Estrada.

[CameronCrazies]

will have two Cubano's playing in the same city. Peoria has two teams.

Yunel Escobar
Amaury Cazana Marti plays in the ST Louis organization

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/about/page.jsp?ymd=20060821&content_id=121035&vkey=about_l119&fext=.jsp&sid=l119

[Cubano100%]

But according to your theory, it shouldnt matter whether they were better that the other candidates or not, they should had been there because they were from Habana, and players from Habana get a fast track to the team........ Speed (which wasnt much of a factor in those Cuban teams since they were outslugging the kids from the other teams) and arm were about the only two things that Jose Estrada did better than Javier, in that period of time Javier was the best defensive CF in Cuba, and he was a far better hitter than Estrada.

Defensive Ave

Estrada 975

Mendez 970




Cubaxpos:

You wrote that Rudy Reyes is the second best 3B in Cuba now. Do you really believe that Mr. Reyes is better than Yuliesky Gourriel, Michel Enriquez and Yorelvis Charles?

I am sure if I keep looking I may find more 3B better than him.



OK, Vargas was better than Pierre despite Pierre having 200 more HR, same amount of doubles, 100 more points in SLU and better defensive numbers in 4 fewer years.



I have no more arguments because you guys have convinced me.

[Cubano100%]

This is the list of Cuban pitchers that defected and their Cuban stats.





Pitchers Series W/JG L/JP W%/PRO S/JS INN AVE ERA/PCL SO BB

Rolando Viera 6 22 19 0.537 2 318 264 3.42 200 131
Rene Arocha 11 104 72 0.591 7 1412.2 239 3.18 1038 544
Rolando Arrojo 13 154 98 0.611 21 2027.2 268 3.5 1138 442
Danys Baez 2 6 5 0.545 1 122.2 271 4.7 92 58
Jose Contreras 10 117 50 0.701 2 1473 243 2.82 1346 514
O. Hernandez 10 126 47 0.728 9 1514.1 238 3.05 1211 455
Livan Hernandez 3 27 16 0.628 1 335 276 4.57 311 127
Ariel Prieto 10 67 66 0.504 0 1043.1 271 4.47 860 525
Alain Soler 5 24 9 0.727 6 270.1 239 3.53 235 109
Raul Valdez 6 52 58 0.473 1 914.2 268 3.61 729 308
Sergei Linares 2 7 10 0.412 2 162.2 279 5.59 111 86
Yuslan Herrera 3 18 7 0.720 5 247 278 3.72 131 77
A. Hernandez 4 27 17 0.614 1 331.1 0.238 2.99 198 116
Eddie Oropeza 5 20 26 0.435 2 440 287 4.42 162 267
Vladimir Nunez 3 17 19 0.472 0 309 284 4.37 165 122
F. Bueno 5 26 22 0.542 3 376.2 263 3.46 227 129
Osbeck Castillo 4 25 22 0.532 14 342.1 237 3.86 298 199
R. Sotolongo 3 5 10 0.333 4 159.1 275 3.5 61 89
Hassan Pena 2 4 4 0.5 3 130.1 264 5.11 123 78
Mael Rodriguez 6 65 45 0.591 11 938 177 2.29 1148 486
R. Bermudez 2 6 5 0.545 116.2 243 4.17 110 78
Yamel Guevara 3 18 7 0.72 0 243.2 222 2.99 223 129
Rafael Galvizo 0
Kenny Rodriguez 3 12 21 0.364 3 315.1 0.287 5.31 252 159
Jose Cordero 3 6 6 0.5 8 113.1 285 5.16 51 77
Julio Villalon 6 26 33 0.441 7 502 277 4.2 223 176
Rubelman Acosta 4 3 6 0.333 0 100 219 3.51 73 57
Waltari Agusti 0
Ivan Alvarez 3 17 13 0.567 0 235 222 3.91 208 123
Zaidel Beltran 3 25 18 0.581 1 299.1 257 3.22 214 112
F. Casanueva 2 4 5 0.444 0 108.1 281 3.49 29 36
Raidel Costa 3 8 11 0.421 0 169.2 239 3.5 131 73
Juan Chavez 5 14 17 0.452 5 293 231 2 175 88
Edisbel Benitez 4 13 13 0.5 2 231 302 4.32 146 113
Arian Cruz 2 2 1 0.667 2 61.1 284 3.82 38 31
Yoankis Turino 3 0 2 0 0 23 367 6.65 11 18
Reynar Diaz 0
Ricardo Diaz 2 2 3 0.4 48.1 206 2.42 24 25
O. Fernandez 0
O. Fernandez 11 70 42 0.625 10 943.2 240 3.12 778 358
O. Fernandez 8 82 62 0.569 11 1160.2 253 3.3 844 356
Rafael Galvizo 0
Gary Galvez 0
Angel Garcia 5 15 14 0.517 0 276.2 228 2.47 125 109
Alain Hernandez 6 25 11 0.694 1 343.2 260 3.9 148 133
Luis Hernandez 3 2 2 0.5 4 84 286 4.71 43 31
M. Hernandez 1 6 3 0.667 0 76.2 180 1.64 94 28
Yosandry Ibanez 2 2 2 0.5 2 41 284 8.34 38 28
H. Izquierdo 0
A. Marquetti 3 4 8 0.333 0 93.2 339 8.17 36 76
Juan Medina 7 17 14 0.548 6 286.2 343 5.68 122 99
Joel Monzon 3 15 17 0.469 0 257 291 5.32 144 88
Maikel Neninger 3 9 11 0.45 0 132 316 5.8 54 83
Osbiel Oiz 0
E. Oropeza 5 20 26 0.435 2 440 287 4.42 162 267
Rolando Pastor 3 9 16 0.36 0 199 199 2.89 197 131
Miguel Perez 8 54 57 0.486 25 948.2 253 3.74 766 409
Jose Prado 1 0 0 0 0 1.2 286 5.4 0 1
Maique Quintero 4 30 28 0.517 0 467.2 253 2.85 275 164
Y. Reina 0
E. Rodriguez 2 1 1 0.5 0 49 364 7.53 19 16
Larry Rodriguez 2 1 0 0.692 0 148.1 280 4.55 55 54
Euclides Rojas 13 59 42 0.584 90 847.2 250 293 625 285
Julio Rojo 10 71 39 0.645 2 948 217 2.06 535 276
Amaury Sanit 7 25 25 0.5 58 514.1 256 4.11 358 234
Michael Tejera 0
Luis Alvarez 1 3 1 0.75 0 34.1 221 3.15 13 24
R. Betancourt 8 38 27 0.585 1 569 0.216 2.51 573 209



Orlando Hernandez
Adrian Hernandez
Francisley Bueno
Roberto Sotolongo
Reinier Bermudez
Francisco Casanueva
Osmani Fernandez
Osvaldo Fernandez Guerra
Osvaldo Fernandez Rodriguez
Manuel Hernandez
Hansel Izquierdo
Agustin Marquetti
Edilberto Oropeza
Yolexandry Reina
Eduardo Rodriguez
Rigoberto Betancourt was a coach in Cuba prior to his defection.
Julio Rojo had already retired from baseball when he defected.
Mael Rodriguez came injured according to some rumors and he has not pitched in the USA yet.

[J.P]

Kenny Lofton has a fielding percentage of 986, Juan Pierre 989, all of a sudden Pierre is a better CF than Lofton, see how stats dont always tell the story??

[CameronCrazies]

I appreciate the hard work on those stats. I really enjoy reading all that. This is the first place people should go when they have questions about Cuban baseball.

Maels was even more dominant than I thought. Hope to see him on the comeback trail soon.

Thanks,

[cubaxpos]

Forget it J.P. People from outside havana will always see the teams from Havana as the evil empire:laugh

[J.P]

Actually, a really good friend of mine played for Isla de la Juventud, and he used to tell me that even the players on the other teams always wanted to beat Industriales.

[cubaxpos]

Everybody had to do with us man.:lookitup They either hate us or they love us. I remember the grandfather of one of my friends who used to go to Havana and used to tell me that there was such a conspiracy for Industriales to win that even umpires will throw the games for us. :laugh
Is all well Cubano, we know that deep down inside you have always been an Industriales fan. Will give you the O.K. to come into the fan club.:coffee

[Martin Dihigo]

Cubano,

Nice job with the numbers . . . I'm getting a new appreciation for
the Cuban ballplayers. And the legal banter, whew! And Jim, thanks
for keeping it going. Anything that deals with Cuba is frought with politics, including baseball, so it's inherent that in a forum about Cuba, there's going to be talk about politics also.

Johan Limonta went 0 for the first three games in the Cal League (High A)
playoffs, but had a good game yesterday as Inland Empire advanced to the Championship Series.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060913&content_id=132749&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

Anyone know when the Serie Nacional begins?
Is the "BesibolCubano" site the best site to follow it?
And does anyone know about a reliever for Isla de la Juventud
named "Garcia" (wore #40). I bougt one of his uniform shirts
at a game in Havana back in 2003 or 2004.

Keep up the good work everyone.

[Barbaro Rogelio Amores]

Is hard not to encounter the opportunistic nature of people in all stages of life, and that is why Cubans follow Industriales the most. Industriales seems to be the team to beat since one fifth of the population lives in Havana, where within the misery you find the best conditions to practice sports compare to the rest of the island. Many young players want to play for the capital and are allow to do it, providing a good supply of players. Metropolitanos is there for support to develop talent (something unheard of any where else) and on top of that it is in the best interest of the government to keep Cubans entertain by their most popular team. You would think this to be a team much more dominant than what Industriales has been.

Estrada was a great number one hitter , Victor Mesa went to left field when he came up. He hit over 2000 hits and stole close to 350 bases and was only 36 or 37 when he retired. Javier Mendez always seemed to make great plays because he could not get to balls, and it was clearly him who had nothing to offer to the national team, he had no place in the line up, could not hit for power and didn't have speed to be in the top of the order. If he made team Cuba was to serve as a communist dog like he showed in the Panamerican games in 1999.

[J.P]

[QUOTE=Barbaro Rogelio Amores]Is hard not to encounter the opportunistic nature of people in all stages of life, and that is why Cubans follow Industriales the most. Industriales seems to be the team to beat since one fifth of the population lives in Havana, where within the misery you find the best conditions to practice sports compare to the rest of the island. Many young players want to play for the capital and are allow to do it, providing a good supply of players. Metropolitanos is there for support to develop talent (something unheard of any where else) and on top of that it is in the best interest of the government to keep Cubans entertain by their most popular team. You would think this to be a team much more dominant than what Industriales has been.

[QUOTE]

You forget to mention the defectors, which province has been the one with the most????? And we still keep on winning..............keep on hating..........Industriales is still the most emblematic team in Cuban baseball, like it or not!!1 :p

[J.P]

I went to the Marlins game last night with a group of people, one of them is from Fomento, the same town as Kendry Morales, he is personal friends with one of Kendry's relatives here in Miami, he told me that when Kendry was sent back to Cuna from the tournament in Panama, he was actually handcuffed by the Castro's watchdogs that travel with team Cuba, and the person responsible for ordering his "arrest" was Victor Mesa. He also confirmed that there was a fight indeed b/w Maels Rodriguez and Yuniesky Gourriel (Yuli's brother), but according to him, this had nothing to do with Maels injury, he was just worn out in Cuba.

[Cubano100%]

http://www.cubancards.com/images/gallery/OscarMacias.jpg

Oscar Macias
The Havana province second baseman finished third among batters with an astonishing average of .384 in ‘03, his last year of play. He was a two-time RBI leader who was part of Team Cuba’s Olympic squad in 2000, World Cup team in ‘01 and America’s Cup team in ‘02. He defected in '04 and is living in Florida.
cubancards.com

[cubaxpos]

Cubans follow Industriales because the team has won the Cuban National Series a gazillion more times than any other team has ever done. Industriales are the Yankees of Cuban Baseball and everybody has to do with them. People either hate them or like them, but never ignore them.
The young players you talked about want to play for Industriales because is the team that gets more exposure in national TV, other teams always play them tough and if you made it to the Industriales is because you are a very good darn player. Not all players make it to the Cerro’s Neighborhood stadium, so that’s the reason why they want to play for the blues.
The Metros are a joke recently but it was they and not the blues making it to the playoffs a few years ago, and yes, they are there to develop players but still manage to collect a few victories along the way (Havana’s B team collected 19 wins in the last National Series which was only 8 less than Hoguin’s 27 and 10 fewer than Matanzas’ 29, two provinces with a rich history of championships and quality players). I think this speaks volumes of the baseball played in Havana.
By no means I am stating that Estrada was not a very good leadoff hitter but I frimly believe his biggest asset was to be an informer and a very good communist. Best leadoff hitters than him were Reemberto Rosell of Cienfuegos, Carlos Tabares of Industriales, Manuel Benavides of Santiago and Zamora from Villa Clara. Victor Mesa of course went to left field because he had to make the trip with that team as the greatest communist ever. Please, Javier never made it because he was always injured (never mentioned by you my friend that he hit I don’t know how many times 400 plus when healthy at the twilight of his career). I am really surprised he made the team in 1999, he was really old by then. Like you said, they took him to serve as a watchdog for the other players wanting to make it here.

[Cubano100%]

From Cubanball.com:


"September 15, 2006 Bronson Arroyo allows 0 runs on 4 hits in 8 innings in win for the Reds. Kenny Perez went 1 for 1 with 1 run scored in pinch hit appearance for the Tucson Sidewinders, who win the Pacific Coast League title.

September 14, 2006 Raul Ibañez went 2 for 5 for the Mariners. Osbek Castillo allowed 2 runs with 8 Ks in 5 innings in win as the Missoula Ospreys take the Pioneer League (R) title. Johan Limonta went 4 for 5 with 2 RBIs and 1 run scored for the Inland Empire 66ers in the California League (A-Adv) Finals.

September 13, 2006 Livan Hernandez allowed 2 runs in 8 innings in win for the Diamondbacks.

September 12, 2006 Mike Lowell went 2 for 4 with 2 runs scored for the Red Sox. Raul Ibañez hit solo HR for the Mariners. Luis Gonzalez got his 50th 2B of the season. Orlando Palmeiro went 1 for 1 with 2 RBIs in pinch hit appearance for Houston. Johan Limonta went 2 for 5 with 2 RBIs and 2 runs scored for the Inland Empire 66ers, who win California League (A-Adv) South Division Finals."

[Cubano100%]

Are there any MLguers in Cuba right now?


I mean: Are there any players in Cuba good enough to play in Majors coming straight out of Cuba without going to the minors?

Please, assume that Cuba-USA relations are normal and MLB scouts can sign Cubans out of either the Cuban National Series or Cuban Super League without spending time away from baseball.

[jalbright]

Are there any MLguers in Cuba right now?


I mean: Are there any players in Cuba good enough to play in Majors coming straight out of Cuba without going to the minors?

Please, assume that Cuba-USA relations are normal and MLB scouts can sign Cubans out of either the Cuban National Series or Cuban Super League without spending time away from baseball.

Well, if the WBC is any guide, it would seem there has to be some, or the Cuban team couldn't have made the finals against rosters with a fair number of major leaguers on them. I wouldn't hazard a guess as to how many, though.

Jim Albright

[J.P]

Pedro Luis Lazo, the big right hander, is the only one I can see coming straight without spending any time on the Minors.

[Cubano100%]

Pedro Luis Lazo, the big right hander, is the only one I can see coming straight without spending any time on the Minors.



Why J.P.? You have the same opinion as DViera.


Your anwser surprises me when you agreed that Cuban defectors face fewer opportunities than others once defecting. You also agreed that Cubans waste time by either entering the Draft or going to a third country. Cubans can not choose the day they want to defect. When they come, the season already started and teams have set up their rosters not only in the big club but through the minor league systems.

In addition, scouts have only see them in a few tryouts and not in real game situations. Do you think a team can trust a new player that they have not seen perform often?

Why have you choosen Pedro Lazo arbitrarily like our friend DViera?

Let me tell you. Norge Vera has as many wins as Lazo and he already beat a USA Pro team, the Orioles. We know that Vera is a veteran and has had some injuries. But is there any doubts that 5 years ago he could have played in the Majors directly?

Lazo is getting old by the way.


Let me remind you that despite loosing significant time away from baseball and without their families and the possibility of going back to their home land, the following players made it very quickly to MLB.

Yuniesky Betancourt: 3 months from the Mexican streets to AA to AAA to ML.

Orlando Hernandez: 2-3 months after being away from baseball for at least a year.

Jose Contreras: I believe he made the team out of Spring Training or only made a handfull of starts in the minors.

Alay Soler: After playing Winter Ball in Puerto Rico, he only started 6 games in the minors. He was away from baseball for 2 years.

Kendry Morales: Suspended from Cuban baseball like El Duque. He was away from baseball for at least a year. He should have debuted last year as a September call up but sometimes teams have to give priority to the players in the 40 men roster.

Michel Abreu: He probably ended the season by being the best hitter in all AA. Should have competed for the 1B position in Boston, but the Red Sox voided his contract. He was stuck in Costa Rica.

Francisley Bueno had a good ERA in AA. He was away from baseball for more than a year.


Livan Hernandez debuted less than a year in the minors.


I assure you that if you bring 50 players from Cuba (pitchers and position players) while playing in the National or Super League with similar numbers as Bueno and Betancourt, some of them will make it straight to the Majors.

Do you really that Betancourt is the only one who could make it in 3 months?

How many young players are there in Cuba with better numbers than Betancourt?

Do you really believe that Yuliesky Gourriel can not even be a back up in the big leagues?

Yorelvis Charles
Yorbis Borroto
Luis Navas
Giorvis Duvergel
Yoennis Cespedez
Frederich Cepeda

Do you believe that there are not pitchers in Cuba capable of being members of a bullpen in MLB?

Villo Odelin
Frank Montieth
Norberto Gonzalez
Luis Borroto
Deinys Suarez
Yuliesky Gonzalez
Yadiel Pedroso



Don't you see when there is talent, they do not last in the minors to long. Don't you think teams want to see how they will perform against some competitions before they are called up to the big club?
How about learning some English before going to the Big Leagues?


They are ready for the Majors talent wise. You know I have always written this.

[J.P]

Cubano, I interpret making it to the big leagues as being successful and stablishing yourself in this institution, not just earning a backup position or a last in the bullpen spot, or making a few starts, or starting a few games. Of course theres talent, there are many players in the island that with just a month, maybe less in the minors, could successfully make the jump. Problem is that in Cuba these players dont face tough competition day in and day out (due to the current 16 teams format) like they would do here; if the # number of teams in the Serie Nacional would be narrowed down, raising the level of competition, and the obstacles faced by Cubans are eliminated, many could make the jump. I chose Pedro Lazo just based on his performance in the WBC, he was the only one who looked dominant in this stage.

[cubaxpos]

A lot of players can go straight to the Majors but they will not be able to succeed. In my opinion, they have to fine-tune their way of thinking and to a lesser degree their skills. Also, and this is the most important thing, they have to get accustomed to first living in the USA (learning the language and going past the cultural shock, cope with their family being away, etc) and also learning how to play baseball in this country, which is very different from the one is played at the island. The latter would be in regards of getting used to not touching an umpire under any circumstances, learning what's the mentality of professional baseball players (you are playing baseball because is the way to feed your family), and minor things that they have to learn in order to succeed playing baseball in the USA.

[Cubano100%]

Don't we have a Super League?

Haven't we play well against top pro team from USA (Orioles, AAA and top prospects), D.R., Mexico, P.R., Japan and other Asian countries?
Is not this tough competition?


As for the cultural shock, I agree. But learning not to touch an umpire is something that does not require to go to the minors. By the way, do all Cuban players touch an umpire?


I like to point out again that Betancourt made it in 3 months despite all things he had to go through. How many young players are there in Cuba better than Betancourt? I mean players entering their prime baseball years. Isn't three months getting in shape in the minors the same thing as making straight to the big leagues? What can a player learn in three months?


J.P.: you know I am almost alone on this issue. You know that prior these wave of defections, only some good pitchers defected and some were past their prime. Many position players were bad players. This wave of defectors have more talent than the previous wave. The Cuban season takes place opposite of the USA season. Despite this, one day some players will make it since day one.

That day many of you will hear from me again on this issue. As soon as the system changes in Cuba, MLB teams will then give more opportunities to Cubans to make it. Cuba has more land than all Caribbean islands combined. MLB teams will try to lure Cuban players to increase their business presence there. I am not talking about Academies I am talking about selling stuff like T-Shirt, memorabilia, etc. MLB will give them the same priority as they do with the Japanese players. Again, I am not comparing the Japanese economy to the Cuban economy. But MLB is going to try to take advantage of the new market.



There are many b-lguers in Cuba talent wise.

[J.P]

I wouldnt call those Orioles or AAA or top prospects teams you mentioned, "top pro teams". The only top competition the Cubans have faced was in the WBC, and in my modest opinion, luck had a lot to do with their second place finish. The only member of that team who looked dominant enough to make the jump straight to the bigs was Pedro Lazo. I think there are players in Cuba right now, that with a month or two in the minors, could make the jump, but as far as straight from the Serie Nacional? I doubt it, but I hope I'm wrong.

[Agente Libre]

I think a better question is, How many Cuban players could reach MLB with one year or less in the minors?

Straight to the big leagues is very tough, especially if the player misses spring training, etc.

[Cubano100%]

Straight to the big leagues is very tough, especially if the player misses spring training, etc.


Exactly so.

It depends on the teams making an evaluation of them on live baseball games.

It depends on the team they sign with. Ex: Yankees vs Tampa Bay

It depends on how much time they miss while defecting.

But it does not depend on their lack of talent.

[Cubano100%]

I wouldnt call those Orioles or AAA or top prospects teams you mentioned, "top pro teams". The only top competition the Cubans have faced was in the WBC, and in my modest opinion, luck had a lot to do with their second place finish. The only member of that team who looked dominant enough to make the jump straight to the bigs was Pedro Lazo. I think there are players in Cuba right now, that with a month or two in the minors, could make the jump, but as far as straight from the Serie Nacional? I doubt it, but I hope I'm wrong.



J.P.


But if they make it to the big leagues, they are b-lguers then. It does not matter if they are the 25 man in the roster because they are in the show. Is not Betancourt a rising star in his position on his first full year?

[Cubano100%]

This is an open question for everyone.



If you need to pick one of the following players on each trio for your team, who is that player:



3B Yuliesky Gourriel vs Nick Punto vs David Bell
RHP Yuniesky Maya vs Runelvys Hernandez vs Ramon Ortiz
RHP Frank Motieth vs Livan Hernandez vs Mark Redman
LF Frederich Cepeda vs Preston Wilson vs Melky Cabrera


I am talking about breaking into the season with them.

[J.P]

J.P.


But if they make it to the big leagues, they are b-lguers then. It does not matter if they are the 25 man in the roster because they are in the show. Is not Betancourt a rising star in his position on his first full year?

If you interpret making it to the bigs by taking a cup of coffee, then yes, many could make it, now, stablish themselves as big leaguers, not many straight out of the National Series. Yes, Yuni is very much a rising star, but he got to where he is at because of his glove, and then they have taught him to hit the braking ball, if he didnt have his magnificient glove, he wouldnt had gotten his chance so fast.

[J.P]

Make no mistake cubano, we know theres talent in Cuba, but when the regime changes (soon hopefully), Cuban players are going to be signed at a young age, so we are not going to be faced with this question, I think the Serie Nacional will be a thing of the past, we would have to go to an 8 team winter league.

[Cubano100%]

If you interpret making it to the bigs by taking a cup of coffee, then yes, many could make it, now, stablish themselves as big leaguers, not many straight out of the National Series. Yes, Yuni is very much a rising star, but he got to where he is at because of his glove, and then they have taught him to hit the braking ball, if he didnt have his magnificient glove, he wouldnt had gotten his chance so fast.

They taught him how to hit the breaking balls? Please, after all the time he was away from real baseball games don't you think his timing was a little bit off. Just a little bit off not much!

Because you like to read what teams say about their players, let me ask you this.

How about Michel Abreu?

I published once that his manager said he can hit breaking balls, fast balls, spoon balls, forkballs, knive balls and every thing you can throw at him.


Teams massage what they say about their players.

Didn't Betancourt hit 280 in AA and AAA?

Aren't good pitchers in AA and in AAA who can throw breaking balls?

Betancourt learned how to hit the breaking ball very quick J.P. Right?
He is a fast learner I guess. 3 months? a year?

This year he has more baseball under his belt and he has gotten his timing back. He also has seen the pitchers more and he is entering his prime years.

All young players like to swing the ball. He has learned to be more selective. Maybe he is seing the ball better now that he has more than a year playing baseball.


Well, we shall discuss this topic again one day no to distant from now. ;)

[J.P]

Why do you take it so personal that they helped him hit the breaking ball:confused: because he hails from Cuba??? and oh excuseme young hitters from Cuba are perfect, dont have any flaws??? So if the Marlins come out and say that Dan Uggla's big rookie season is because they have been working with him on hitting a breaking ball, would you take it the same way????

[J.P]

Why would a team lie about a player??? I mean, I guess that if all teams lie about the work that coaches do with a player to help them get better, then we wouldnt need any coaches..........

[J.P]

Betancourt learned how to hit the breaking ball very quick J.P. Right?
He is a fast learner I guess. 3 months? a year?



I guess I shouldnt have said "taught" how to hit breaking balls, you know what I meant, but if you are going to take everything I say literally, then let me be a little more specific, they helped him hit the breaking ball, that doesnt just mean "hit it", it actually means recognize it quicker off the pitchers hand, be aware of the count where they could throw it, etc.

[Cubano100%]

Why would a team lie about a player??? I mean, I guess that if all teams lie about the work that coaches do with a player to help them get better, then we wouldnt need any coaches..........


How many times have you read news about players not being ready and then suddenly when the team needs the services of that player, they change their tone and message to: this X player is now ready out of the blue.

Bobby Cox once said: "you do not come to the big leagues to learn. That is done in the minors."

I ask you: Do you believe this statement?

How many pitchers are learning to throw change ups in the big leagues?

How many players are learning the game in the big leagues?

This season I saw 4 different instances of players going from second to third base with a rolling to SS with less than 2 outs. Why does this happen in the big leagues?

I thought this play is taught in the minor leagues like Cox said.


Everybody learns things constantly not only in baseball but in every job. However, either you have talent or not. If you do not have the talent, you can be taught all you want and you won't make it.

[Cubano100%]

Why do you take it so personal that they helped him hit the breaking ball:confused: because he hails from Cuba??? and oh excuseme young hitters from Cuba are perfect, dont have any flaws??? So if the Marlins come out and say that Dan Uggla's big rookie season is because they have been working with him on hitting a breaking ball, would you take it the same way????

You know better J.P. How many times have I critized Cuban players?
Many times and you know it.

Dan Uggla has been around for a while with Arizona I believe. Uggla can hit the breaking balls or not at this point. He can make adjustments to it, study his swing, etc as Betancourt did.

I just think that you follow the same MLB thought that all Cuban players are minor leaguers. I hope I am wrong. If you look at the result of games between Cuban teams (Cuban National, Super League, National Series) against top professional teams from USA, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, D.R., P.R., Venezuela, Mexico, etc, we have at least a 500 mark. Some of these teams have played with MLB full rosters. I guess am tired of hearing the media and fans looking for excuses why their team lost against Cuba. The same thing can be said about the assumption all Cuban players need to go to the minors.

Prior to the WBC, many said that Cuba would be no match against the strong pro teams. After the WBC the same people came with a different tune: Cuba could play with the big boys because it was a short tournament.

If Cuban players can hold their ground against top players from other countries, some Cuban players are MLB ready talent wise. Forget about all the nonsense that goes around them.

One more thing my friend J.P..


Listen, players do not change to much over their careers. Casanas was a strikeout king in Cuba. The same story in the USA. Yunel Escobar was bad defensively in Cuba. The same story in the USA. Michel Abreu hit for power and ave in Cuba. The same thing in the USA. Yuni Betancourt was good with the glove in Cuba and in his last season hit 317 for Villa Clara. The same story in the USA. Rey Ordonez was good with the glove but could not hit a watermelon in Cuba. The same story in the USA.
Therefore, no coaches were able or have not been able to fix these players. Either you are good enough or you are not.


You see my point now. Betancourt hit 317 in his final season in Cuba. I do not think that you hit over 300 in any league by just hitting fastballs. I know we have better pitchers in MLB than in Cuba but still you do not hit 317 in Cuba by just hitting fastballs.



It is all good with me. :crazy

[J.P]

I have never said that Cuban players are minor leaguers, but that they do need a few weeks in the minors to fine tune, I believe that when you dont play top competition day in and day out, you develop bad habits. You mentioned Yuni hitting 317 his last year in Cuba, but what was Yobal's AVE his last year in Cuba?? what was Andy Morales'???? what was Omar Linares' the season before going to Japan???? You know better than anybody how many bad pitchers this hitters face in Cuba on a night to night basis, you cant possibly think that theres enough talent in Cuba to fill 16 top pitching staffs, heck, you dont hit over 300 playing high school ball if you only hit fastballs.............

[J.P]

How many times have you read news about players not being ready and then suddenly when the team needs the services of that player, they change their tone and message to: this X player is now ready out of the blue.

Bobby Cox once said: "you do not come to the big leagues to learn. That is done in the minors."

I ask you: Do you believe this statement?

How many pitchers are learning to throw change ups in the big leagues?

How many players are learning the game in the big leagues?

This season I saw 4 different instances of players going from second to third base with a rolling to SS with less than 2 outs. Why does this happen in the big leagues?

I thought this play is taught in the minor leagues like Cox said.


Everybody learns things constantly not only in baseball but in every job. However, either you have talent or not. If you do not have the talent, you can be taught all you want and you won't make it.

Yeah, now ask Bobby Cox if they are not working with Francouer on being more selective.............

[J.P]

This season I saw 4 different instances of players going from second to third base with a rolling to SS with less than 2 outs. Why does this happen in the big leagues?



Last time I checked MLB stood for Major League Baseball, not anything to do with robotics, players are human, they are gonna make mistakes.

[Cubano100%]

I have never said that Cuban players are minor leaguers, but that they do need a few weeks in the minors to fine tune, I believe that when you dont play top competition day in and day out, you develop bad habits. You mentioned Yuni hitting 317 his last year in Cuba, but what was Yobal's AVE his last year in Cuba?? what was Andy Morales'???? what was Omar Linares' the season before going to Japan???? You know better than anybody how many bad pitchers this hitters face in Cuba on a night to night basis, you cant possibly think that theres enough talent in Cuba to fill 16 top pitching staffs, heck, you dont hit over 300 playing high school ball if you only hit fastballs.............


Andy Morales among the top 3B in Cuba. Right? The USA Coast Guard picked him up and sent him back to Cuba. How much time did he lose away from baseball?

How many series did Duenas play in Cuba? How many years was he in Central America before finally coming to the USA at age 35,36...?


I hope soon all Cuban players 30 years and under can come to the USA. We will see how many make it to the big show right away.

How often Linares was injured in Japan? What was his ave in the Japanese World Series?

[Cubano100%]

Last time I checked MLB stood for Major League Baseball, not anything to do with robotics, players are human, they are gonna make mistakes.


Yeah, but these type of mistakes are not suppose to happen in the Major Leagues. I understand a player making an error fielding a ball or a bad bunt, but going to third with less than two outs with a rolling at SS is unaceptable in the Major Leagues.

That is a no-no.

[Cubano100%]

As for what managers, coaches, teams and reporters say about players, I stopped paying attention to them long time ago. One day the say something and the next day they say something else. They massage whatever they want to tell the public in the best interest of the team.

[J.P]

Andy Morales among the top 3B in Cuba. Right? The USA Coast Guard picked him up and sent him back to Cuba. How much time did he lose away from baseball?

How many series did Duenas play in Cuba? How many years was he in Central America before finally coming to the USA at age 35,36...?


I hope soon all Cuban players 30 years and under can come to the USA. We will see how many make it to the big show right away.

How often Linares was injured in Japan? What was his ave in the Japanese World Series?

Hey I agree with you, but then you pick and choose which player's stats from Cuba you want to compare and which you dont, I mean, if the comparison is valid for Yuni, it has to be valid for everybody else right?

[jon7jmets]

Henry Owens to Licey and Morales to Gigantes . http://licey.com/

[Cubano100%]

Henry Owens to Licey and Morales to Gigantes . http://licey.com/

Red Sox RHP Gary Galvez is also going to play for the Gigantes too.

[jon7jmets]

AFL added some more players to the rosters.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/about/page.jsp?ymd=20060821&content_id=121035&vkey=about_l119&fext=.jsp&sid=l119

[CameronCrazies]

Atlanta Braves third base coach Fredi Gonzalez is receiving a lot of press as possibly the next manager of the Florida Marlins as well as a lot of other teams.

Isn't he of Cuban descent? I thought I read that somewhere.

A few articles recently, the latest on MLB.com, say Yunel Escobar is trade bait and considered an attractive player to many teams that value plate discipline from a young, versatile, inexpensive player. FWIW I agree.

[Agente Libre]

I believe you're right re: Fredi Gonzalez. Seems like he'll be an MLB mgr soon, either Marlins or elsewhere, from all the buzz around him.

Re: Escobar, I hate to always be negative on the guy, but two thoughts come to mind: (1) The Atlanta Braves almost never trade minor leaguers who become major leaguers (let alone good major leaguers), so this is almost the kiss of death for him having an ML career; and (2) I just don't see the value in a .260-hitting middle infielder with no power, average speed and below average defense.

Escobar certainly looks like a prospect -- strong, enthusiastic guy with a strong arm -- but at 24/25 years of age, he hasn't even remotely shown any actual major league ability. (He was only in the Futures Game because he was one of only a few Cubans in Double-A or higher, and he was only the Mississippi player of the year because it was a horrendous offensive team.) Escobar left Cuba as a .270 hitter with no power and bad defense, and this year in 2A he hit .270 with no power and bad defense. By Escobar's age, players are who they are.

[J.P]

Escobar was a 270 hitter in Cuba, but he rarely had a chance to play, and started his career with Industriales when he still was a teenager, and this is just his second year in the minors, firs in AA ball, the Braves see something in him when they are sending him to the AFL, and correct me if I'm wrong, but not every year theres been a Cuban in Futures game, why did they have to include one this year?? He certainly has room to improve, and I think is too early to disregard him.

And yes, Freddy Gonzalez was born in Cuba, he actually managed the Marlins for a stretch of like 10-15 games (more or less), when then manager John Boles was out ill.

[Agente Libre]

Escobar was a 270 hitter in Cuba, but he rarely had a chance to play, and started his career with Industriales when he still was a teenager, and this is just his second year in the minors, firs in AA ball, the Braves see something in him when they are sending him to the AFL, and correct me if I'm wrong, but not every year theres been a Cuban in Futures game, why did they have to include one this year?? He certainly has room to improve, and I think is too early to disregard him.

But everyone starts their careers in Cuba as teenagers, and adding together his 4-year Cuban career with his 2-year U.S. career, he's a .270 hiter with a total of 12 HR in 6 seasons.

Escobar is about to turn either 24 or 25; how much more time does he need? How many players start to hit .320, or improve their defense, or run faster, at 25?

A year ago, Escobar was Atlanta's "shortstop of the future" and now he's trade bait. Obviously, just as the Industriales coaching staff figured out in 2004, Atlanta has figured out Escobar is not the player they thought he was.

(I hope Escobar proves me wrong, but the numbers are the numbers.)

[Cubano100%]

I believe you're right re: Fredi Gonzalez. Seems like he'll be an MLB mgr soon, either Marlins or elsewhere, from all the buzz around him.

Re: Escobar, I hate to always be negative on the guy, but two thoughts come to mind: (1) The Atlanta Braves almost never trade minor leaguers who become major leaguers (let alone good major leaguers), so this is almost the kiss of death for him having an ML career; and (2) I just don't see the value in a .260-hitting middle infielder with no power, average speed and below average defense.

Escobar certainly looks like a prospect -- strong, enthusiastic guy with a strong arm -- but at 24/25 years of age, he hasn't even remotely shown any actual major league ability. (He was only in the Futures Game because he was one of only a few Cubans in Double-A or higher, and he was only the Mississippi player of the year because it was a horrendous offensive team.) Escobar left Cuba as a .270 hitter with no power and bad defense, and this year in 2A he hit .270 with no power and bad defense. By Escobar's age, players are who they are.



Amen!



Unlike Yuni Betancourt, Kendry Morales, Francisley Bueno, Michel Abreu and Alay Soler, Escobar did nothing in Cuba nor has done anything relevant in the USA. All the above players put good numbers in AA, AAA or MLB on their first or second year in the USA. Escobar had a mediocre year in AA.
Mississippi was a lousy team and Escobar was the player that did better than the rest. That doesn't mean he did anything great.

At the beginning of the 2006 season, he was ranked # 3 among the Braves propects by BA. I like to see where they place him in 2007.

As for the Futures Game, MLB o whoever organize it want as many countries represented so the Buzz around it is greater.

He is strong for a middle infielder, but he has to put some decent numbers very soon or he will be a minor leaguer for life.

[J.P]

According to milb.com Escobar is actually 23, in Cuba he got a little more than 400 AB over 4 seasons, you think that sitting in the bench he could have developed?? This was his first full year in organized ball, and he was the best player, like you two said, in a lousy team, hitting 2nd with no protection, and sometimes being forced to hit 3rd or 4th. He might not be Atl's SS of the Future, but he still could have a career as an utility or 2b for a MLB team, I'm not saying he will be the next Arod, but I'm not ready to discard him yet. And no, you cant teach speed, but you can correct flaws in somebody's game to make him a better fielder, hitter, and baserunner.

[Agente Libre]

Right, he's 23 but about to turn 24 either next month or in November.

I'm sure he's going to get more time, but after 6 years in Cuba and U.S., there's simply nothing to suggest he has major league potential. He doesn't hit for average, he has no power, he plays bad defense (can't be utility guy with his fielding %) and he has average/non-base-stealer speed. Those are a lot of flaws to correct next year, at age 24, after 6-plus years of organized baseball.

[CameronCrazies]

I've watched the Mississippi Braves about ten times from the bleachers this year and I have to interject. This was his first FULL (140 Games) season in the US.

I'm sure he's going to get more time, but after 6 years in Cuba and U.S., there's simply nothing to suggest he has major league potential.

Just one game and you can tell he has not played a lot of baseball (actual games against this competition level I mean) and he is going to get better no matter how old he is. But you can also tell because the kid has the tools necessary.

Yunel has an inside-out swing that generates line drive power to the opposite field and he showed it the times I was there. I can't remember seeing him pull the ball unless he was fooled and grounded out to short or third. He gets himself out a lot.

I guarantee that the upper level coaches will convince him that he can hit homeruns by simply pulling a few balls to leftfield. The guy is strong and puts on a show in batting practice.

Your responses make me think Yunel hooked up with your girlfriend or something. In Cuba you play 100 games in a season right? Well his average fell off twenty points or so in the last month of the season when the heat in MS is unbearable.

He may not be the Braves SS of the future, but I bet they keep him in AAA all season to prepare to replace Renteria in 08. Elvis is definitly the SS of the future though I know. Sometimes Yunel was surprised by some of the hard hit grounders and they bounced off his glove and all. I'm not making excuses for him, but he really hasn't played a lot of baseball at this level.

He is coachable though and I can tell it from the few games I saw late in the season. He was a "show-off" at first then he was humbled by his error count in 06 and the coaches got him to quit whistling during the the opponents at-bats...a very popular thing in Cuba I've read.

[Agente Libre]

I'm sure he's going to get more time, but after 6 years in Cuba and U.S., there's simply nothing to suggest he has major league potential.

Just one game and you can tell he has not played a lot of baseball (actual games against this competition level I mean) and he is going to get better no matter how old he is. But you can also tell because the kid has the tools necessary.

Sorry, but that's utter nonsense. A 24-year-old Cuban has likely played more games than the vast majority of 24-year-olds from anywhere else.

First, Cuba has the most structured amateur baseball program on Earth. Period. End of story.

Second, Escobar made the Cuban Junior National Team as a 17-year-old in 2000 -- I personally saw him play in Edmonton that year -- so he was obviously well-known to the Cuban baseball people by 2000, if not years before.

Third, we're talking about a guy with probably four to six years in the Cuban junior program followed by four full years in the Cuban National Series and then 1.5 years of pro ball in the U.S.

How much time does he need before some MLB-caliber results should be expected?

Yunel has an inside-out swing that generates line drive power to the opposite field and he showed it the times I was there. I can't remember seeing him pull the ball unless he was fooled and grounded out to short or third. He gets himself out a lot.

I guarantee that the upper level coaches will convince him that he can hit homeruns by simply pulling a few balls to leftfield. The guy is strong and puts on a show in batting practice.

Are you seriously projecting he will develop MLB-caliber HR power at the Triple-A level after hitting 12 HR in the last 6 years combined? Guys that "put on a show" in b.p. in Double-A and then hit 2 HR all year are known as "5 o'clock hitters" for a reason.

Your responses make me think Yunel hooked up with your girlfriend or something.

Please. As I've said repeatedly, I wish nothing but the best for Escobar and I hope he proves me wrong. But any objective look at his Cuban career and his U.S. career tells us, at this point, he's about 2 years away from the Atlantic League.

You're the one who posted that Escobar is now "trade bait." Do you think the Braves are idiots, too?

In Cuba you play 100 games in a season right? Well his average fell off twenty points or so in the last month of the season when the heat in MS is unbearable.

Mississippi is hotter than living in Cuba without air conditioning? That seems hard to believe.

He may not be the Braves SS of the future, but I bet they keep him in AAA all season to prepare to replace Renteria in 08. Elvis is definitly the SS of the future though I know. Sometimes Yunel was surprised by some of the hard hit grounders and they bounced off his glove and all. I'm not making excuses for him, but he really hasn't played a lot of baseball at this level.

Actually, he has (see above). If hard-hit grounders, on outstanding Double-A surfaces, were a problem for Escobar, then he's a below-average defender.

[J.P]

"Third, we're talking about a guy with probably four to six years in the Cuban junior program followed by four full years in the Cuban National Series and then 1.5 years of pro ball in the U.S."

--If the stats Cubano posted in our Spanish forum are correct, Escobar got a little more than 400 AB's over those four years, he might have been in the roster for 4 full seasons, but he sure didnt play the equivalent of 4 full years!!!!

--I agree with you in one thing Agente, he might not be a HR hitter, but is that a must have for a middle IF???

[J.P]

What do you see in the future for Martin Prado since he does not hit for power? Does he take Marcus Giles' place at some point, or do Yunel Escobar or Elvis Andrus factor into future plans at second base?
-- Curt J., Taylor Mill, Ky.

If the Braves are able to find a leadoff hitter who isn't a second baseman, Prado certainly has a chance to be the club's starter next year. His upside may not be as high as Willy Aybar's, but he's certainly a much more polished player who seems capable of handling the regular chores at second base.

As for Escobar, he could play second base in the near future. But I wouldn't be surprised if he is part of a trade that should bring the Braves something attractive in return.

Andrus, who will be 18 at the start of next season, seems to be the guy who will step in at the shortstop spot when Renteria's time in Atlanta has reached its completion.


---Escobar is being considered in a trade where something attractive could come in return, no, the Braves are not stupid, but neither is the other team, unless they are so nice they wanna take a bad player out of the Braves' hands and give them a good one in return; but if you wanna look at it like that, then Jeff Bagwell, Mike Lowell, Brad Penny, Scott Kazmir, Derrek Lee, Dontrelle Willis, and most recently Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, and Ricky Nolasco were all trade bait. You know that many times prospects are traded for players who can help now, or when the position is overcrowded, to fill other spots. Note that the article also says, he could play 2b in the future.

[CameronCrazies]

This was his first full season of playing professional baseball. Escobar has 400 ab's in four seasons in Cuba. That is not enough to judge a player...some would argue that is not even enough to gauge any player in one full season!!

He had 428 AB's this season and got on base at a .364 clip. I think he could hit MAYBE 10 homers in a full season (500+ AB's) at the Major League level because he would most likely bat 2nd or 7th in the lineup. 10 homers would tie or be more than 14 other STARTING 2nd baggers in the Majors right now. The fact that he is learning 2nd, SS, and 3B at the AA level and he maintained a decent batting average and peripheral stats says Major Leaguer to me. His footwork at all three positions is awful though. But that can be taught.

I hate you disagree, but it IS possible for him to learn at this high level especially when he hasn't EVER played a full season. Braves scouts have seen a lot of players with tools like Yunel and you don't drop a half mil on a player you have described.

The best thing for him is to play everyday he gets the chance against the best possible competition. That's why he is heading to the AZL instead of the DSL or the VSL.

[J.P]

I would actually say that his development in Cuba was staggered by the lack of playing time, he made the jump from the Juniors to the big team, and he stalled because he wasnt given the chance to play.

[Agente Libre]

This was his first full season of playing professional baseball. Escobar has 400 ab's in four seasons in Cuba. That is not enough to judge a player...some would argue that is not even enough to gauge any player in one full season!!

He had 428 AB's this season and got on base at a .364 clip. I think he could hit MAYBE 10 homers in a full season (500+ AB's) at the Major League level ...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Projecting a guy who has hit 12 home runs in 6 years will start hitting 10-plus HR in the major leagues is just lunacy.

I hate you disagree, but it IS possible for him to learn at this high level especially when he hasn't EVER played a full season.

Please name a few players who hit .270 with no power and bad defense over 6 years and then, at age 24 or 25, suddenly started hitting .320 with 10-HR power and great defense in Triple-A or the majors.

Braves scouts have seen a lot of players with tools like Yunel and you don't drop a half mil on a player you have described.

Okay, but then why is he "trade bait," as you posted yesterday?

The fact is, Escobar lied about his age and he lied about his stats before the 2005 draft -- he told MLB teams he was a .340 hitter in Cuba and was an All-Star the year he left -- and apparently the Braves bought it. Now, they've figured out he's a non-prospect and they're looking to move him.

[CameronCrazies]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Projecting a guy who has hit 12 home runs in 6 years will start hitting 10-plus HR in the major leagues is just lunacy.

Fine - If he makes it to the Majors like I predict it will also increase his focus during the game. Playing for a crappy team doesn't always help you get up for a game in front of small crowds too. By 2008 he will be a regular or a bench guy for someone in MLB.

Please name a few players who hit .270 with no power and bad defense over 6 years and then, at age 24 or 25, suddenly started hitting .320 with 10-HR power and great defense in Triple-A or the majors.

Again he can still change all that and all he needs is more innings. He will never .320. .275-290 is just fine for a player like Escobar.


Okay, but then why is he "trade bait," as you posted yesterday?

He is only trade bait (that was a mailbag questions from MLB.com) if he comes on strong next spring or next season. Right now, someone who has scouted him may feel different thinking he will make his way out of it. But right now he is not trade bait. If you look at his stats they don't jump off the page I agree.

The fact is, Escobar lied about his age and he lied about his stats before the 2005 draft -- he told MLB teams he was a .340 hitter in Cuba and was an All-Star the year he left -- and apparently the Braves bought it. Now, they've figured out he's a non-prospect and they're looking to move him.

Did you pull this one out of thin air or what?? Brayan Pena would have known this was bull**** and let the Braves know. You can find Escobar's stats with a Google search. I will start reading back in this thread now because I think you made this up.

[Agente Libre]

Did you pull this one out of thin air or what?? Brayan Pena would have known this was bull**** and let the Braves know. You can find Escobar's stats with a Google search. I will start reading back in this thread now because I think you made this up.

Brayan Pena left Cuba as a 16-year-old in 2000. He's lucky he even recognized Yunel Escobar by the time he left in late 2004, let alone been able to provide any sort of reliable scouting report or background info. How was Pena supposed to provide a scouting report on a guy he hadn't seen in 5 years?

As for "making things up," I can assure you I did no such thing. Frankly, I don't understand why you're so emotional about this issue. You're the one who posted the "trade bait" note yesterday, and now you're mad because I don't share your glowing opinion of a .270 hitter. Very strange.

[jalbright]

Gentlemen:

We're fine as far as we've gone, but as a moderator, I've got to be a little wary when things are getting as close to personal as they've gotten in the past few posts. Please remember that you may disagree vigorously and certainly feel free to rebut the logic or facts cited in another post. However, remember also that you're on thin ice when you start talking about the individual who made the post. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Jim Albright

[CameronCrazies]

I have no emotional connection to this at all and frankly I'm sick of this topic. The guy is a raw player and will only continue to get better. I just disagree with your idea that he will never get better.

[CameronCrazies]

[QUOTE=Agente Libre]Brayan Pena left Cuba as a 16-year-old in 2000. He's lucky he even recognized Yunel Escobar by the time he left in late 2004, let alone been able to provide any sort of reliable scouting report or background info. How was Pena supposed to provide a scouting report on a guy he hadn't seen in 5 years?

I read they grew up together and went to the same school/academy so they would know each other very well. I also read that they played on the junior team together. This info is in the Baseball America literature. Go see for yourself.

[J.P]

Agente, you keep mentioning the 6 years as if it was a passage from the bible, but you fail to recognize, he didnt play in Cuba, 400 AB's over 4 seasons!!!!! Is that enough to develop a prospect??????????? or more like stall his progress??????????? About him lieing to teams before the draft, I certainly cant just imagine a team drafting someone in the second round, based on his words, specially when the stats are readily on the World Wide Web for everybody to see, but I mean, if thats the case, where do I write myself in for the draft????? Maybe I'll get lucky and some team will buy the BS I'm gonna feed them about my numbers my last year playing Junior ball in Cuba. As of trade bait, how many prospects have been trade bait in the past????? Just look at this year's Marlins roster, I guess Hanley, Anibal, Nolasco, Jacobs, were no good, I mean, they were trade bait right????? As so were Scott Kazmir, Derrek Lee, Mike Lowell, Jeff Bagwell, etc, etc, etc

[Cubano100%]

Agente, you keep mentioning the 6 years as if it was a passage from the bible, but you fail to recognize, he didnt play in Cuba, 400 AB's over 4 seasons!!!!! Is that enough to develop a prospect??????????? or more like stall his progress??????????? About him lieing to teams before the draft, I certainly cant just imagine a team drafting someone in the second round, based on his words, specially when the stats are readily on the World Wide Web for everybody to see, but I mean, if thats the case, where do I write myself in for the draft????? Maybe I'll get lucky and some team will buy the BS I'm gonna feed them about my numbers my last year playing Junior ball in Cuba. As of trade bait, how many prospects have been trade bait in the past????? Just look at this year's Marlins roster, I guess Hanley, Anibal, Nolasco, Jacobs, were no good, I mean, they were trade bait right????? As so were Scott Kazmir, Derrek Lee, Mike Lowell, Jeff Bagwell, etc, etc, etc


J.P.

The majority of those prospects had good years in the minors unlike Escobar. There is nothing in Escobar's career in Cuba or the USA that tells us he will be good.

Is it possible that the Havana Lions coaches thought Escobar was not that good that the Braves coaches have not seen?

When he played for the Havana Industriales, the Lions were auditioning for the SS and 3B positions. Escobar was coming from the junior national team and failed to impress anyone in the Havana Lions organization.

The jury is out there for Escobar. The Braves do not have anyone at 2B and Renteria is getting old and his contract will expire soon. Escobar has found himself in the same situation he had with the Lions: a job to claim for himself with little competition. The only thing Escobar must do is to impress his coaches. In Cuba, he failed. In my opinion, he is failing again with the Braves.

[Agente Libre]

Brayan Pena left Cuba as a 16-year-old in 2000. He's lucky he even recognized Yunel Escobar by the time he left in late 2004, let alone been able to provide any sort of reliable scouting report or background info. How was Pena supposed to provide a scouting report on a guy he hadn't seen in 5 years?

I read they grew up together and went to the same school/academy so they would know each other very well. I also read that they played on the junior team together. This info is in the Baseball America literature. Go see for yourself.

Right, they knew each other very well as teenagers, before Pena left Cuba in 2000 as a 16-year-old. I don't care what Baseball America says; common sense says a 6-year-old scouting report can't be very accurate.

[Agente Libre]

Agente, you keep mentioning the 6 years as if it was a passage from the bible, but you fail to recognize, he didnt play in Cuba, 400 AB's over 4 seasons!!!!! Is that enough to develop a prospect??????????? or more like stall his progress??????????? About him lieing to teams before the draft, I certainly cant just imagine a team drafting someone in the second round, based on his words, specially when the stats are readily on the World Wide Web for everybody to see, but I mean, if thats the case, where do I write myself in for the draft????? Maybe I'll get lucky and some team will buy the BS I'm gonna feed them about my numbers my last year playing Junior ball in Cuba. As of trade bait, how many prospects have been trade bait in the past????? Just look at this year's Marlins roster, I guess Hanley, Anibal, Nolasco, Jacobs, were no good, I mean, they were trade bait right????? As so were Scott Kazmir, Derrek Lee, Mike Lowell, Jeff Bagwell, etc, etc, etc

Why do people keep saying he didn't play much? Escobar was part of Cuba's baseball program for up to a decade before he left in 2004. He was a platoon or bench player for his first three years in the National Series but he still played in anywhere from 20 to 50 games in those years. Then, he apparently won a starting job to start the 2003-'04 Series but lost it due to bad defense, not much offensive production, and (from what I've read and heard) some run-ins with the Industriales coaching staff.

Some of you people seem to have a hard time with reality. Most high school teams only play 20-30 games per year and most junior colleges play maybe 40 games before players get drafted. Even as an alleged part-time player, Escobar left Cuba with far more game experience than most similar players his age in the draft.

(You're also forgetting that in addition to official National Series records, Cuban teams play dozens of intrasquad games and exhibition games against other Nat. Series teams during the off-season. Unlike anywhere else in Latin America, Cubans play games almost year-round.)

(Edited to correct his years/timeline in Cuba.)

[J.P]

Why do people keep saying he didn't play much? Escobar was part of Cuba's baseball program for up to a decade before he left in 2004. He was a platoon or benh player for his first three years in the National Series but he still played in anywhere from 20 to 50 games in those years. Then, he apparently won a starting job to start the 2003-'04 Series but lost it due to bad defense, not much offensive production, and (from what I've read and heard) some run-ins with the Industriales coaching staff.

Some of you people seem to have a hard time with reality. Most high school teams only play 20-30 games per year and most junior colleges play maybe 40 games before players get drafted. Even as an alleged part-time player, Escobar left Cuba with far more game experience than most similar players his age in the draft.

(You're also forgetting that in addition to official National Series records, Cuban teams play dozens of intrasquad games and exhibition games against other Nat. Series teams during the off-season. Unlike anywhere else in Latin America, Cubans play games almost year-round.)

(Edited to correct his years/timeline in Cuba.)

I dont see how he could have been a full time player for two straight seasons, 90 games they play nowadays right?? lets say he played 80, at a very conservative 3 AB's per game, thats 240 per year, thats 480 in just two seasons, since his total at bats in 4 years were something around 439, I guess he just sat in the bench the other two. In the offseason in Cuba, players not on the Ntn'l Team, play in the Provinciales, very low level competition, not in itra squad games (maybe they do, but just a few b4 the season starts).

[J.P]

J.P.

The majority of those prospects had good years in the minors unlike Escobar.

And how many full years has Escobar had in the Minors????? Dont bring up the 4 years in Cuba, I dont care what anybody says, a teenager needs to play to develop, slightly over 400 AB's over 4 years mean nothing to me.

[Agente Libre]

I dont see how he could have been a full time player for two straight seasons, 90 games they play nowadays right?? lets say he played 80, at a very conservative 3 AB's per game, thats 240 per year, thats 480 in just two seasons, since his total at bats in 4 years were something around 439, I guess he just sat in the bench the other two.

I apologize; I think you replied to my post before I edited it to reflect his correct career timeline in Cuba. Escobar was a platoon player in 2000-01, a bench player in 2002 and 2003, and then a full-time player (to start the year) in 2003-'04.

In the offseason in Cuba, players not on the Ntn'l Team, play in the Provinciales, very low level competition, not in itra squad games (maybe they do, but just a few b4 the season starts).

Based on my recent conversations with Cuban players, they are expected to train almost year-round, and are always playing games at one level or another: intrasquad, exhibition, Super Liga, games vs. visiting foreign teams, etc.

Compared to players from the rest of Latin America, who rarely play games at all, or even in the U.S. draft, Escobar as much or more experience than any other players his age.

[J.P]

I agree with you Agente, Cuba has he best amateur system in the World, but they dont have an effective minor league system, once you leave the Juniors, you are sent to the wolves, if you dont produce right away, specially on a team like Industriales from Habana, the city with the most talent in the country, you are either sent to the bench, or left to play in the Provinciales. One thing that jumps to mind is, Industriales didnt discard him compltely, they chose to keep him on the roster and not send him to Metros (Habana's other team) and the Braves are using a roster spot on him in the AFL, so they sure havent dicard him yet. He might never develop, but the jury is still out on him, and luckily for him, the Braves agree with me.

[J.P]

Compared to players from the rest of Latin America, who rarely play games at all, or even in the U.S. draft, Escobar as much or more experience than any other players his age.

Experience gained playing at a very low competition level.

[J.P]

When I left Cuba myself, I sure had more experience playing baseball than most kids my age in the USA, we played everyday in my neighborhood, they came home and played with their Playstations, but many of them made the High School team and I didnt,in other words, experience at a very low quality level, is basically irrelevant.

[Agente Libre]

I agree with you Agente, Cuba has he best amateur system in the World, but they dont have an effective minor league system, once you leave the Juniors, you are sent to the wolves, if you dont produce right away, specially on a team like Industriales from Habana, the city with the most talent in the country, you are either sent to the bench, or left to play in the Provinciales. One thing that jumps to mind is, Industriales didnt discard him compltely, they chose to keep him on the roster and not send him to Metros (Habana's other team) and the Braves are using a roster spot on him in the AFL, so they sure havent dicard him yet. He might never develop, but the jury is still out on him, and luckily for him, the Braves agree with me.

Baseball is a cruel business everywhere. Not everyone gets 4 years to prove himself, etc.

The bottom line, as Cubano said a few posts ago, there is simply nothing in either Escobar's Cuban career or his minor league career that suggests he will be a major league player. We can talk about changing his swing and improving his footwork and all that, but 24-year-old players tend not to change/improve very much. It's not like he hit 30 HR this year but struck out too much, or is learning to play the infield for the first time. Like a lot of players, he seems to have peaked as an 18-year-old.

Anyway, I don't understand why this discussion has gotten so heated. More people are obsessed with Yunel Escobar than talked about Yuniesky and Kendry last year combined.

[Agente Libre]

Experience gained playing at a very low competition level.

Compared to whom?

(By the way, two minutes ago you said Cuba has the best baseball system in the world.)

When I left Cuba myself, I sure had more experience playing baseball than most kids my age in the USA, we played everyday in my neighborhood, they came home and played with their Playstations, but many of them made the High School team and I didnt,in other words, experience at a very low quality level, is basically irrelevant.

Again, compared to whom? Escobar wasn't playing in his neighborhood; he was part of the ESPA system since he was 12 or 13. He had over a decade of top-level Cuban baseball experience when he left in 2004. It's not like was some poor kid who was living under a bridge and got his first baseball glove when he got to America.

[CameronCrazies]

I'm a Braves fan that's why I write about the Cubans in the organization so much. I don't know anything about Juniesky and Kendry.

[J.P]

He had over a decade of top-level Cuban baseball experience when he left in 2004.

And were do you rank the quality level in this experience compared to the US minor leagues, were many Latin American kids get brought into at the age of 16???

[J.P]

Baseball is a cruel business everywhere. Not everyone gets 4 years to prove himself, etc.



Here, you dont produce at age 19 and you have various levels of minor leagues where you can go correct your flaws. In Cuba he didnt produce, he was giving a seat in the bench, could he have corrected the flaws on his game like that??

[Agente Libre]

And were do you rank the quality level in this experience compared to the US minor leagues, were many Latin American kids get brought into at the age of 16???

Latin 16-year-olds play against other Latin 16-year-olds. 90% of the players in the DSL and VSL never even reach the U.S.

If Cuba has the best amateur baseball program, as you said at noon today, then simple logic tells us Cuban amateurs must face the best competition.

Here, you dont produce at age 19 and you have various levels of minor leagues where you can go correct your flaws. In Cuba he didnt produce, he was giving a seat in the bench, could he have corrected the flaws on his game like that??

The average U.S. minor league career is 2 years or less. If a player signs for $1 million, that might buy him another year or two (so the scouts don't get fired for wasting money), but the idea Escobar was somehow short-changed in Cuba is false. (It's not like playing in a few more games would have substantially helped Escobar's defense.)

[J.P]

Yes, Cuba has the best amateur system in the world, but of the baseball rich countries, name another one who puts any sort of emphasis in the amateur side of the sport. Yunel was playing against other 16 year old Cubans, Dominicans against other 16 year old Dominicans, and so forth, do we have any indication to think that the 16 years old from Cuba are better than those in the VSL or DSL, therefore, Yunel should be more developed than them. I'm not saying Yunel was shortchanged in Cuba, but he was a top pprospect, who didnt produce right away and was belated to the bench for 4 years, not to a minor league team where he could have played day in and day out under the careful eye of coaches that are there with the sole purpose of developing their players (not win games, like all the levels in Cuba)

[Agente Libre]

Yes, Cuba has the best amateur system in the world, but of the baseball rich countries, name another one who puts any sort of emphasis in the amateur side of the sport. Yunel was playing against other 16 year old Cubans, Dominicans against other 16 year old Dominicans, and so forth, do we have any indication to think that the 16 years old from Cuba are better than those in the VSL or DSL, therefore, Yunel should be more developed than them. I'm not saying Yunel was shortchanged in Cuba, but he was a top pprospect, who didnt produce right away and was belated to the bench for 4 years, not to a minor league team where he could have played day in and day out under the careful eye of coaches that are there with the sole purpose of developing their players (not win games, like all the levels in Cuba)

I've totally lost track of your argument. Earlier, you agreed with me that Cuba has the best amateur baseball program in the world; now you seem to be suggesting he would have been a more advanced player had he lived somewhere else.

By the time Escobar aged out of the junior program and into the National Series in 2000 at age 18, 98% of players from D.R. and VZ have been released and sent home. Sure, Escobar might have played more than he did, but sports are a meritocracy: The best players play.

Why is Yunel Escobar some special guy who deserves an exemption from that reality? I don't understand.

[J.P]

I've totally lost track of your argument. Earlier, you agreed with me that Cuba has the best amateur baseball program in the world; now you seem to be suggesting he would have been a more advanced player had he lived somewhere else.

By the time Escobar aged out of the junior program and into the National Series in 2000 at age 18, 98% of players from D.R. and VZ have been released and sent home. Sure, Escobar might have played more than he did, but sports are a meritocracy: The best players play.

Why is Yunel Escobar some special guy who deserves an exemption from that reality? I don't understand.

My argument is that had he been in a minor league system at age 18, instead of being sitting in a bench, he could have possibly been a better player now. I'm not saying that he should have played in Industriales, if when he first came up, he didnt produce, but how many specimens produce at such a young age???? Here, he would had been playing day in and day out, under the supervision of coaches who are there to develop their players, in Cuba he went from prospect, to a seat in the bench with the big team, how many prospects do you see here sitting in the bench in the bigs instead of getting playing time in the minors???? So in my opinion, his progress was stalled.

[Agente Libre]

... but his progress wasn't stalled as the result of some sinister conspiracy against him; it was because he was not deemed good enough to play on a more regular basis. The same thing happens to thousands and thousands of players from the U.S., D.R., Venezuela, etc. (myself included).

[Cubano100%]

... but his progress wasn't stalled as the result of some sinister conspiracy against him; it was because he was not deemed good enough to play on a more regular basis. The same thing happens to thousands and thousands of players from the U.S., D.R., Venezuela, etc. (myself included).


Oh, come on!

What position did you try to play?

2B, SS or bat boy? :waving


Did you reach the minor league level?

[J.P]

... but his progress wasn't stalled as the result of some sinister conspiracy against him; it was because he was not deemed good enough to play on a more regular basis. The same thing happens to thousands and thousands of players from the U.S., D.R., Venezuela, etc. (myself included).

Agreed, but what I'm trying to say is, he had to make a jump from the Juniors to the highest level of Cuban baseball, no minor leagues in between, he wasnt deemed good enough to play, that's OK, not everybody is Kendry Morales or Dayan Viciedo, but because of the lack of an effective minor league system(not a sinister conspiracy against him) he was given a very confortable seat in the bench, not a spot on a team where he could play day in and day out..........he might have never developed either way, but what I'm trying to say is you cant compare him to other 24 years old minor leaguers who have spent the last 3 or 4 years since leaving college or high school playing in a developmental league (the minors), not in the bench of a big league club.

[Agente Libre]

Oh, come on!

What position did you try to play?

2B, SS or bat boy? :waving

Ha ha ... I'm a slow gringo; I wasn't fast enough to play any of those positions.

[Agente Libre]

Agreed, but what I'm trying to say is, he had to make a jump from the Juniors to the highest level of Cuban baseball, no minor leagues in between, he wasnt deemed good enough to play, that's OK, not everybody is Kendry Morales or Dayan Viciedo, but because of the lack of an effective minor league system(not a sinister conspiracy against him) he was given a very confortable seat in the bench, not a spot on a team where he could play day in and day out..........he might have never developed either way, but what I'm trying to say is you cant compare him to other 24 years old minor leaguers who have spent the last 3 or 4 years since leaving college or high school playing in a developmental league (the minors), not in the bench of a big league club.

I see where you're coming from; I just don't understand the fascination with Escobar when no one says much at all about guys like Abreu, Canizares, Bueno, Castillo or even Escobar's half-brother Yamel Guevara, who was TEN TIMES better in Cuba than Escobar but remains unsigned because his agent(s) turned his situation into a circus.

[J.P]

I'm not fascinated with him, he might turn out to be as bad as you guys say he is, I'm just saying that its too early to discard him, I guess luckily for him the Braves agree, and hes in the AFL. By the way, I knew Guevara was his relative, I didnt know they were half brothers though, last I heard about Guevara he was injured, you have any news about him?

[Agente Libre]

Last I heard was that Guevara was in the D.R. and unsigned.

Guevara and Escobar have the same father.

[J.P]

But the other 5 that left with him were drafted, does he still has a shot at getting signed??

[Cubano100%]

Guevara must have a year living in the D.R. now. How long have Sergei Linares and Yuslan Herrera lived in the D.R.? According to that article posted in here a few weeks ago, some of them were not cleared yet by my good friend Bud Selig (Dominican citizenship). Guevara probably has to wait the same amount of time as these players I mentioned.

How about Osbeck Castillo (Arizona A)?

He had to leave the D.R. and crossed Central America borders to get in time for the June Draft after he could not get his paperwork in order in the D.R. Imagine if Castillo would have been intercepted by one of these governments. He would have been send back to paradise!

Do not be surprise if you guys see Yamel Guevara coming to America in another boat from the D.R. after he is unable to get citizenship there. The movie can be called Guevara's Florida Straight Expeditions.

Do you know how many Dominicans, Jamaicans, Haitians, etc move to Cuba before 1959?

Just check out the East Coast in Cuba and you will see how many people have English and French last names. This is why I do not understand why some of these governments make it harder for Cubans to live there. Another one is Spain. Who invited the Spaniards to this so called new world? When a Cuban get to Spain, he encounters all sort of problems. There are some Cuban players who have defected to Spain. I do not know much about them. I hope they got their paperwork in order at least.



I just can not believe how naive some people are in this world toward the Cuban Führer.


Somebody get Bud Selig out of office, pleaseeeeeeee.

[Cubano100%]

Notes: Betancourt looks to improve D
Mariners shortstop feels his glovework could be better





http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060930&content_id=1691249&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea

[CameronCrazies]

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=243&Itemid=42

Looks like Fredi Gonzalez is in...My Braves are losing more and more key players and coaches from the 15 year run.

[CameronCrazies]

Who are some of the other agents who represent Cubano's like Joe Cubas does?

Just the names are fine if you have some.

[Cubano100%]

El Duque looks to give Mets leg up
Postseason resume, strikeout potential could make difference
By Marty Noble / MLB.com


http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061001&content_id=1694466&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym

[Cubano100%]

Who are some of the other agents who represent Cubano's like Joe Cubas does?

Just the names are fine if you have some.

Jamie Torres (I think Torres has more clients and better ones. Ex: Contreras and Betancourt)
Henry Villar
Joe Keioskie
John DiMano

[Cubano100%]

Monday, July 10, 2006




Boat lifted


Yunel Escobar came to America two years ago, at age 21, smuggled from his native Cuba on a boat to freedom. Thirty-six people were on board for that harrowing, two-day trip. Six of them, including Escobar, arrived in Miami with professional-baseball aspirations on their horizon.

Put in this context, perhaps that explains why Escobar's appearance in the All-Star Futures Game was so personally gratifying.

"It's very important," said Escobar, who still isn't comfortable speaking English and asked World teammate Yovani Gallardo in the next locker stall to translate. To accentuate the meaningfulness, he twice tapped his breastbone with the thumb of a clenched left fist. "My family is watching me. I'm happy to be here."

With family and friends watching back home on a satellite signal of ESPN, this 6-foot-2, 200-pound shortstop with the Atlanta Braves walked and struck out in the 8-5 U.S. squad victory.

When the boat pulled into Miami in early 2004, it constituted the largest mass defection of Cuban baseball players under Fidel Castro. Joining Escobar were fellow national-team members and friends who likewise found major-league employment: pitcher Yamel Guevara of the Mets, pitcher Jose Angel Cordero of Minnesota, outfielder Yoel Perez Mendieta of the Yankees, pitcher Rafael Galbizo of Florida and outfielder Johan Limonta of Seattle.

Childhood friend Brayan Pena, a catcher in the Braves' system, apparently put in a good word for his old pal Escobar. And the Braves appear content to have him: Escobar, 23, is the fastest riser of his refugee group, playing in Class AA for the Mississippi Braves in his first full professional season and getting ranked by Baseball America as Atlanta's fourth-best prospect. Escobar, whose wife has since joined him in America, said he often plays against some of the other five fellow boat members.

"We talk about it a lot," he said. "It was tough, two days on a boat."



http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06191/704727-335.stm

[CameronCrazies]

Jamie Torres (I think Torres has more clients and better ones. Ex: Contreras and Betancourt)
Henry Villar
Joe Keioskie
John DiMano

Yeah those are the only ones I know about. I read about them in a story about Kendry from the New York Times magazine.

Thanks Cubano

[Cubano100%]

Jamie Torres (I think Torres has more clients and better ones. Ex: Contreras and Betancourt)
Henry Villar
Joe Keioskie
John DiMano

Yeah those are the only ones I know about. I read about them in a story about Kendry from the New York Times magazine.

Thanks Cubano


I read that there is a lady who was representing Escobar and the rest in that group. I forgot her name.

[Cubano100%]

Alan Nero represents El Duque.
Enrique or Juan Iglesias represents Livan Hernandez.

[jon7jmets]

Brayan Peña and Francisley Bueno will play for Giants in DWL.

[jon7jmets]

Any links to the Nicaragua league season has started.

[Cubano100%]

Any links to the Nicaragua league season has started.


http://www.lnbp.net/

[Agente Libre]

On the agent issue, Jamie Torres has successfully represented Jose Contreras and Yuniesky Betancourt but he is also being sued for his handling of Maels Rodriguez (and I believe he took Betancourt from a different agent as well); Joe Kehoskie has represented about 10-15 Cubans since the late 1990's; Henry Vilar was Maels Rodriguez's and Yobal Duenas' original agent but I don't believe he represented any Cubans before or since; and John DiManno represented Kendry Morales and then a group of Cubans who got caught (and arrested) illegally entering the Dominican Republic in early 2005 (who still haven't signed).

According to press reports, Joe Cubas has been permanently banned from representing baseball players due to repeated unethical behavior.

El Duque and Livan Hernandez have had about six agents each in their MLB careers. Unless they switched again recently, El Duque and Livan are both represented by Jeff Moorad's old agency out of Los Angeles, which was bought by some guy whose name I can't recall. (But Cubano was right: Duque was with Alan Nero and Livan was with Juan Iglesias in the past.)

Also, the woman Cubano mentioned was not Yunel Escobar & Co.'s agent; she was, according to the Miami Herald, his girlfriend. I guess they just used her for translating an interview.

[jon7jmets]

Soler going to play for Ponce again. Any links to Rican winterball scores and stats?

[Cubano100%]

On the agent issue, Jamie Torres has successfully represented Jose Contreras and Yuniesky Betancourt but he is also being sued for his handling of Maels Rodriguez (and I believe he took Betancourt from a different agent as well); Joe Kehoskie has represented about 10-15 Cubans since the late 1990's; Henry Vilar was Maels Rodriguez's and Yobal Duenas' original agent but I don't believe he represented any Cubans before or since; and John DiManno represented Kendry Morales and then a group of Cubans who got caught (and arrested) illegally entering the Dominican Republic in early 2005 (who still haven't signed).

According to press reports, Joe Cubas has been permanently banned from representing baseball players due to repeated unethical behavior.

El Duque and Livan Hernandez have had about six agents each in their MLB careers. Unless they switched again recently, El Duque and Livan are both represented by Jeff Moorad's old agency out of Los Angeles, which was bought by some guy whose name I can't recall. (But Cubano was right: Duque was with Alan Nero and Livan was with Juan Iglesias in the past.)

Also, the woman Cubano mentioned was not Yunel Escobar & Co.'s agent; she was, according to the Miami Herald, his girlfriend. I guess they just used her for translating an interview.


Is there any restriction on how often you can switch agents?

I imagine you have to sign a contract to be represented by X agent.

If you switch agents in the middle of a contract, which agent gets paid.

[Cubano100%]

Soler going to play for Ponce again. Any links to Rican winterball scores and stats?

This site is maintain by a former blguer.
http://www.hitboricua.com/LBPPR/lbppr.html



The best winter league sites are the Nicaraguan and the Mexican sites.

Mexico
http://www.ligadelpacifico.com.mx/cms/content.asp?company=137

[Cubano100%]

According to a newspaper report I published in post #929, RHP Yamel Guevara signed with the Mets. Can anybody confirm this?

[Agente Libre]

Is there any restriction on how often you can switch agents?

I imagine you have to sign a contract to be represented by X agent.

If you switch agents in the middle of a contract, which agent gets paid.

No; yes; and an agent only gets paid for any work he did while a player was under contract with that agent.

[Agente Libre]

According to a newspaper report I published in post #929, RHP Yamel Guevara signed with the Mets. Can anybody confirm this?

I believe that story was erroneous. As of a few weeks ago, Guevara was still in the D.R. and unsigned.

[Agente Libre]

At the risk of restarting the Yunel Escobar brawl, Baseball America released their list of the Southern League's Top 20 Prospects and Escobar did not make the list.

After starting the year as the Braves' #4 prospect in Baseball America, this is a substantial regression. The league Top 20's are voted on by the managers and coaches in the league, so apparently he didn't impress many people.

Baseball America is having a Southern League chat at 2:00 p.m. Eastern time if anyone wants to ask questions about Escobar (or anyone else). You can submit questions in advance at:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/chat/chat.php?id=2006100601

[jon7jmets]

I guess mlb.com made Licey.com new page looks great.

[Cubano100%]

México

Ariel Prieto.
Yaquis de Obregon.

Hansel Izquierdo
Mayos de Navojoa.

[Cubano100%]

Jose Cordero is going to play for the Criollos de Caguas in Puerto Rico for the second consecutive year. Last year, the 23 year old Cordero had a 2-2 record with a 3.26 ERA. He pitched 30.1 innings with 11 SO.

In 2006, Cordero ended with a 3-2 and a 4.24 ERA pitching 51 innings. He recorded 50 SO. Cordero played for Beloit Snappers (Twins) in the Midwest League. He lost some time due to injury this season.



Cordero used to play for Metropolitanos in the Cuban League.




http://www.caguascriollos.com/news/data/upimages/jose_cordero_250.jpg

[Cubano100%]

Rey Ordonez

He was the second best SS in Havana behind German "the Magnet" Mesa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9CgvPgDVro&mode=related&search=

[J.P]

Yunel Escobar goes 2-4 with 1 RBI in his AFL debut. Michel Abreu goes 0-4.

[Cubano100%]

Amaury Casanas homered. He went 3-6 with 3 RBI.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?gid=2006_10_11_surwin_peswin_1&t=g_box&did=milb

Yunel Escobar went 2-4.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?gid=2006_10_11_perwin_gcrwin_1&t=g_box&did=milb


Michel Abreu went 1-4 with a double.

[J.P]

El Duke says he'll be back if Mets reach the Series:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2627838

[CameronCrazies]

Yunel Escobar is currently leading the Arizona Fall League in batting average (.591) as I type and he is sitting in the top ten in every other catergory. No errors and he's been playing shortstop everyday until today (2nd base).

Hey Agente...IF and it's a big if he hits a homerun or two this month then I want to hear you eat crow brother:dance

Just kidding man, but I'm pleasently surprised at Escobar. He's very focused right now.

[Agente Libre]

The Arizona Fall League is no better than the Double-A level Escobar just played at in 2006, and it's chock full of dead-armed pitchers who are in their NINTH month of pro ball in 2006.

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due, but it's going to take more than a good week in the AFL for me to change my opinion of Escobar.

[Cubano100%]

Amaury Casanas Marti hit his 3rd homer.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l119&t=g_box&gid=2006_10_16_pddwin_peswin_1


Yunel Escobar went 4-6.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l119&t=g_box&gid=2006_10_16_perwin_msswin_1

[Cubano100%]

Can anyone post the article?


http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/



http://www.baseballamerica.com/images/amarti06428309jh.jpg

[CameronCrazies]

Veo donde esta Brayan Pena en su roster. No veo Francisley Bueno? Ellos primero el juego esta noche.

El website de Licey.com es awesome.

Como es mi Espanol?

[Cubano100%]

Your Spanish is better than my English. ;)

Ellos primero el juego esta noche.

I think you meant El primer juego es esta noche o El primer juego sera esta noche. The verb sera is the future tense for the verb to be (ser).


Check this site for the Gigantes del Cibao. Bueno is there.


http://www.gigantesdelcibao.com/


Eddy Toledo gerente general de los Gigantes procedió a presentar los importados que verán acción este año con el equipo y que será encabezado por el estelar receptor Brayan Peña, el antesalista John Hannahan.,el jardinero Nick Gorneault, el lanzador zurdo de origen cubano Franciley Bueno, el lanzador Ed Yarnall y el cerrador del equipo Travis Minix.
http://www.gigantesdelcibao.com/noticias/templates/noticia.asp?articleid=557&zoneid=3



I do not see Kendry Morales though.

[Agente Libre]

After all the problems Kendry had in D.R., he'd be a moron to go back there.

[Cubano100%]

How about if the team sends him?

[Agente Libre]

Doesn't really make a difference from an immigration standpoint, unless the team had already made sure his papers are all legitimate and in order.

[CameronCrazies]

Probably, your more confused now than before. :laugh :waving


Thanks for the info. What's funny is that I can read nearly anything is Spanish, but it's tough to memorize and speak. Thanks for the encouragement though.

Gigantes del Cibao won last night 6-0, but I didn't see if Bueno picked up the win. I'm sure he did though.

[Cubano100%]

Bueno pitched 4 innings allowing 2 hits and no runs. He recorded 3 SO. :clapping


Kendry Morales went 0-5 as the third hitter and Brayan Pena went 0-5 as the second hitter in the lineup. :grouchy

[Cubano100%]

Michel Abreu ended this 17 innings game.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061021&content_id=139321&vkey=news_l119&fext=.jsp&sid=l119


http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2006/10/21/IMSsufL5.jpg
Michel Abreu was the Eastern League's leading hitter in 2006 with a .332 batting average. (picture by Melissa Wintemute)



Abreu went 3-7. Ave 273.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l119&t=g_box&gid=2006_10_12_msswin_gcrwin_1





Amaury Casanas Marti de 2-4. Ave 343.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l119&t=g_box&gid=2006_10_21_peswin_perwin_1

[Cubano100%]

From the Nicaraguan Winter League site.



Octubre 19, 2006
DOS CUBANOS FORTALECEN STAFF DEL BÓER...También llegaron varios extranjeros más a la Tribu
Francisco Jarquín
Tomado de La Prensa

El Bóer sigue armándose con el propósito de armar un róster que cambie la historia de las pésimas presentaciones del equipo, en las primeras dos ediciones, de la Liga Nicaragüense de Beisbol Profesional.

Con ese fin, sigue llegando el material humano que los directivos consideran mejorará el accionar de los Indios. Ayer arribaron los lanzadores cubanos Duniesky Flores, de 6.6 pies de estatura y 18 años de edad y su compatriota Yamel Guevara, de 6.2 y 23 años de edad.

“He venido a ponchar a muchos por acá, para eso me han traído. Estaba en República Dominicana donde me estaba preparando para ponchar en Nicaragua”, dijo Guevara en tono de broma en varias ocasiones.

Pero su bola rápida, según Guevara con promedio de 92 millas por hora, slider, curva, cambio de velocidad y splitfinger, parecen recursos que podrían ser una advertencia más que una broma.

“Sé que ésta es una liga fuerte, por eso decidimos venir a Nicaragua. Además porque podemos tener chance para firmar con alguna organización de las Grandes Ligas”, agregó el derecho que estuvo tres años con los Industriales en la liga cubana.

Flores, con un carácter más pasivo, no deja de impresionar por sus 6.6 pies de estatura, sumados a su recta cercana a las 90 millas, splitfinger, cambio y curva, que no dejan de despertar expectativas pese a sus 18 años.

“Tengo experiencia en campeonatos nacionales juveniles en Cuba, selecciones de esa categoría en Panamericano en México y Mundial en Japón. Estoy seguro de que puedo hacer un buen trabajo para el equipo”, explica el lanzador derecho de ciudad Habana.

“Me parece una gran oportunidad venir a lanzar a Nicaragua, porque sé que hay un buen nivel y todavía con chance de firmar con alguna organización, por la cantidad de scouts que hay en este país”, comentó Flores, después de una pequeña sesión de entrenamientos, recortada por la lluvia en el Estadio Jackie Robinson del Injude.

Guevara y Flores llegaron ayer de República Dominicana, donde participaban en una Liga Instruccional en la que también les hicieron varias pruebas con algunas organizaciones.

[Cubano100%]

Yamel Guevara
Fastball 92 mph, slider, curvel, changeup and splitfinger.

Duniesky Flores is 6.6 and 18 years old. He played for the Cuban Junior team in the Panamerican junior tournament in Mexico and in the World Junior tournament in Japan.
90 mph, splitfinger, changeup and curve


They were having tryouts in the Instructional League in the Dominican Republic.




These are the most important info in the previous article.

[Cubano100%]

RHP Miguel Perez (Mets AA) is going to play for the Chinandega Tigers and Maikel Jova (released by Toronto) is going to play for the Leon Lions in Nicaragua.

[Cubano100%]

http://www.gigantesdelcibao.com/images/Players/Morales,Kendry_Méndez,Víctor_Gorneault,Nick.jpg
Kendry Morales, Víctor Méndez and Nick Gorneault
GigantesdelCibao.com


Morales has 2 HR in 6 games.

[Seattle1]

http://www.stratogists.com/images/betancourt_over_ellis.jpg

Yuniesky Betancourt!

:clapping

[Agente Libre]

If Yamel Guevara and Y. Flores were in the Dom. Rep. for Instructional League, then that means they are under contract with an MLB team. If so, it seems odd that a top prospect (or former top prospect) like Guevara would get sent to Nicaragua, which is a fairly weak league (by winter league standards).

[Cubano100%]

Why can not they be holding tryouts in the Intructional League in D.R?

Is not the Instructional League an informal league?


Why should they even try to play in the D.R. Winter League? They have not played competitive baseball for a 2 years and the Nicaraguan Winter League seems appropriate to show they skills.

Teams want to see the Cubans now playing in any type of league before signing them. That is what have happened to this latest wave of defectors.

[Agente Libre]

No, what I'm saying is, the Instructional League is for players under contract to MLB teams, so it seems unlikely these two guys were actually in the D.R. Instr. League.

More likely, they were in the D.R. and no team signed them, and now they're playing in Nicaragua (for a paycheck and/or to try to get signed like Abreu and Canizares did last year).

I wouldn't say teams are requiring that Cubans play in a league before signing. Kendry, Yuniesky, Escobar, etc., did not do so. The only guys who end up in a league like Nicaragua are the ones whose situations got screwed up by paperwork problems, bad agent(s), etc.

[Cubano100%]

Betancourt played in Mexico a few games.
Morales played in the D.R. a few games.
Francisley Bueno and Osbeck Castillo did the same.


I think they are trying to boost their leverage with a good showing in Nicaragua. Maybe, they did not get the offer they want it.

[Agente Libre]

Betancourt played like 3 games in Mexico; ditto for Morales in D.R.; and Bueno and Castillo had been waiting almost 2 years for contracts, which is how/why they ended up playing in D.R.

If Gourriel, Viciedo, Borroto, Betancourt, etc., defect, there's no way MLB teams will ask them to play in D.R. or Mexico before signing them.

Any time you see a Cuban playing in a winter league, it's out of desperation either for a contract or a paycheck.

[Cubano100%]

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do, Agente.


I hope they are both healthy.

[Agente Libre]

I agree and I hope it works out for both of them. I'm just saying that when players end up in places like Nicaragua, they're grasping the last rung. In Guevara's case, he's been out of Cuba for over 2 years now, so he's obviously had major problems with his health and/or his residency papers. (I don't know much about the Flores kid, but he's been out of Cuba for almost a year and several teams have passed on signing him, including the Dodgers.)

[Cubano100%]

These pitchers played in the Cuban National League and minors/MLB. I only forgot Maique Quintero who only reached A+ ball. As we can see, I included their Cuban career stats, their first season in the minors, their first season in MLB and their career MLB stats. Without taking other factors into consideration such as age, time lost, time in MLB, etc, the difference in ERA is minimal. See red numbers for ERA average.

What do you think?

I think this is the best way to project a Cuban defector.




Name ERACuba ERA 1st minor 1stseason MLB ERA MLB
René Arocha 3.18 AAA 2.70 3.78 4.11
Ariel Prieto 4.47 Indy 0.97 4.97 4.85
Os Fernández 3.12 4.61 4.93
Liv Hernández 4.57 AA 4.34 3.18 4.11
Rolando Arrojo 3.5 A 3.43 3.56 4.55
Orl Hernández 3.05 AAA 3.83 3.13 4.11
Vladimir Núñez 4.37 Rookie 2.22 4.08 4.83
Adr Hernández 2.99 AA 4.04 3.68 6.55
Eddie Oropesa 4.42 A+ 2.13 4.74 7.34
Danys Báez 4.7 AA 3.68 2.5 3.69
José Contreras 3.18 3.3 4.28
Alain Soler 3.53 A+0.60,AA 2.75 6 6
Francisl Bueno 3.46 AA 3.59
Raul Valdez 3.61 AA/AAA 5.79
Rolando Viera 3.42 AA4.89,AAA 2.70
Arian Cruz 3.82 AA 3.3
Saidel Beltran 3.22 A 4.45
Jose Cordero 5.16 A 4.70
Osbeck Castillo 3.86 Rookie 1.04
Rob Sotolongo 3.5 A/AA 5.84
Miguel Perez 3.74 AA/AAA 4.71

78.87 66.93 47.53 59.35
ERA 3.59 3.52 3.66 4.57



Many of these players pitched a handfull of games in the minors. Many only pitched in A or AA ball before heading to the majors.

[Agente Libre]

You forgot El Duque. I think he'll help your argument a little. ;)

[Cubano100%]

The Leon Lions are betting once more on the Cuban talent. The Lions have 6 Cubans on their roster including Alexis Hernandez, Maikel Jova, Julio Villalon and Amaury Sanit.
Edisbel Benitez, a newcomer, has looked impressive in the workouts.



http://www.lnbp.net/images/migueper.jpg
Miguel Perez from Holguin, Cuba
lnbp.net

[CameronCrazies]

Who is this rookie pitcher Vladimir Banos? He's going with the Cuban team to Taiwan in November.

Does anyone think Frank Montieth would defect? I like his chances in MLB if he was to choose to leave. I'm going to scroll back some and look up his info.

http://licey.com/articulo.asp?did=5503

[Cubano100%]

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3725/vladimirbanosmb0.jpg
Vladimir Banos

He was born on Jan 17, 1983. He is a RHP with 90 MPH fastball and a few braking ball pitches.

He comes from the same pitching school of MLguers Jose Contreras, Danys Baez, Alain Soler, Pedro Lazo (WBC), Yuslan Herrera and Seguei Linares who are in the Dominican R. All these pitchers would be pitching together now for Pinar del Rio if some of them would not have defected. Pinar de Rio is known for their good pitchers. Even the pitching coach for the Industriales Lions now was a great one who played for Pinar del Rio, RHP Julio Romero.



I'll send you his full info via PM. The only problem is that you do not accept PM.

[CameronCrazies]

Thanks Barron, now I do.

[Cubano100%]

First baseman Michel Abreu has belted three home runs thus far in AFL action.

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061027&content_id=1725160&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym



This guy has impressed me a great deal. He played his final season in Cuba during the 41st National Series. Folks, we finished playing the 45th National Series. Therefore, he was out of baseball more than 5 years counting the time he spent in Central America getting his legal paperwork.

Then, he came to AA and killed the ball finishing as the best hitter in all AA.

It is too bad that the Mets have Carlos Delgado. Abreu could be playing 1B or be a DH for another team.

[jalbright]

These pitchers played in the Cuban National League and minors/MLB. I only forgot Maique Quintero who only reached A+ ball. As we can see, I included their Cuban career stats, their first season in the minors, their first season in MLB and their career MLB stats. Without taking other factors into consideration such as age, time lost, time in MLB, etc, the difference in ERA is minimal. See red numbers for ERA average.

What do you think?

I think this is the best way to project a Cuban defector.




Name ERACuba ERA 1st minor 1stseason MLB ERA MLB
René Arocha 3.18 AAA 2.70 3.78 4.11
Ariel Prieto 4.47 Indy 0.97 4.97 4.85
Os Fernández 3.12 4.61 4.93
Liv Hernández 4.57 AA 4.34 3.18 4.11
Rolando Arrojo 3.5 A 3.43 3.56 4.55
Orl Hernández 3.05 AAA 3.83 3.13 4.11
Vladimir Núñez 4.37 Rookie 2.22 4.08 4.83
Adr Hernández 2.99 AA 4.04 3.68 6.55
Eddie Oropesa 4.42 A+ 2.13 4.74 7.34
Danys Báez 4.7 AA 3.68 2.5 3.69
José Contreras 3.18 3.3 4.28
Alain Soler 3.53 A+0.60,AA 2.75 6 6
Francisl Bueno 3.46 AA 3.59
Raul Valdez 3.61 AA/AAA 5.79
Rolando Viera 3.42 AA4.89,AAA 2.70
Arian Cruz 3.82 AA 3.3
Saidel Beltran 3.22 A 4.45
Jose Cordero 5.16 A 4.70
Osbeck Castillo 3.86 Rookie 1.04
Rob Sotolongo 3.5 A/AA 5.84
Miguel Perez 3.74 AA/AAA 4.71

78.87 66.93 47.53 59.35
ERA 3.59 3.52 3.66 4.57



Many of these players pitched a handfull of games in the minors. Many only pitched in A or AA ball before heading to the majors.

Nice work. However, the biggest single problem is the small sample size. Even with El Duque, we're talking about just over 12 guys who made the majors. Running an average without controlling for the effects of IP on both lists isn't wise, either, though I'm not sure it would have a great effect. You just need more basis for comparison to render defensible judgments, but we'll have to wait for that to happen.

Jim Albright

[Cubano100%]

Yes, Jim. Your are right about the IP factor. I just did not have the time to finish the work. Maybe, I do it soon.

[CameronCrazies]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_477474.html

The Pirates are in negotiations to sign Cuban defector Yuslan Herrera, a 25-year-old right-handed pitcher.

A Pirates spokesman confirmed that the two sides are talking, but said no deal has been reached. Herrera helped his country win the gold medal at the Athens Olympics in 2004, and he has an 18-7 record and 3.72 ERA in international play. He recently became "unblocked," ??? a process that allowed him to negotiate with major-league clubs, and the Pirates entered the bidding.

In August, Baseball America reported that Herrera was the most impressive of five Cuban athletes to work out at the Arizona Diamondbacks' academy in the Dominican Republic.

Scouts estimate Herrera as a No. 4 starter. His fastball routinely hovers at 88-92 mph and could jump to 94 mph once he becomes established in a team's system.

[jon7jmets]

Agent Jaime Torres said that three of his most recent Cuban defector clients have reached agreement with major league organizations, and the two who received significant money--righthander Yuslan Herrera and shortstop Yohannis Perez--signed not with the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox or Dodgers, or any other large-revenue clubs.

Perez, 24, signed with the Brewers on a minor league contract. Herrera, 25, has finalized a deal on a major league contract with the Pirates, though the deal is not official pending Herrera passing a physical. A third defector, infielder Yunesky Sanchez, signed with the Diamondbacks on a minor league contract. Torres did not disclose financial terms.

[jon7jmets]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15502016/

Quote:
MIAMI - An agent for baseball players illegally smuggled Cuban players into the United States, eventually shipping them to California in hopes that they would be signed by major league teams, federal immigration officials said Tuesday.

The agent, Gustavo “Gus” Dominguez, is charged with paying four aides to transport the athletes and other Cubans to the U.S. in two trips from the island nation. Dominguez, of California-based Total Sports International, has represented several Cuban baseball defectors, including Andy Morales, who was signed by the New York Yankees and later the Boston Red Sox after fleeing Cuba six years ago.

[Agente Libre]

Yuslan Herrera is an interesting signing for Pittsburgh, although he's been away from organized baseball for over 2 years. He also did not pitch in the 2004 Olympics, so that's bad info. in that article.

Yohannis Perez was not a very good player in Cuba, so that seems like a questionable signing for Milwaukee.

The agent story is VERY interesting. It was common knowledge Dominguez smuggled Andy Morales into the U.S., so it looks like he pressed his luck one time too many with Uncle Sam.

[Martin Dihigo]

Gente, just off the presses . . . from JSOnline.com
http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=1&date=11/1/2006&id=13708

WEDNESDAY, Nov. 1, 2006, 2:48 p.m.
By Tom Haudricourt

Brewers sign Cuban defector
In an ongoing effort to make inroads on the international scene, the Milwaukee Brewers' current regime has signed its first Cuban defector.

The Brewers signed shortstop Yohannis Perez, 24, who defected nearly two years ago from Cuba and has been living in the Dominican Republic. An agreement was reached with agent Jaime Torres, though scouting director Jack Zduriencik would not reveal the signing bonus.

Even though Perez hasn't played in an organized league for nearly two years, he was invited to the Brewers' spring training camp as a non-roster player. Zduriencik said today that Perez is expected to begin at the Class AA level, if not higher, next season.

"He has some nice tools," said Zduriencik, who watched Perez work out in Florida as well as play in some games in the Dominican Republic. "We think he can play the middle of the infield.

"We were happy to get the opportunity to sign him."

Zduriencik said the Brewers' coordinator of Latin American scouting, Fernando Arango, developed a relationship with Perez that gave the club its chance.

"He kind of liked us, right off the bat," said Zduriencik. "We had some information on him from when he played in Cuba. He's a pretty good runner who can field and throw.

"We think he's an advanced player. We'll bring him to big-league camp and let the pieces fall where they may. I think he saw an opportunity here to start near the top (of the farm system)."

[CameronCrazies]

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/index.jsp

Escobar is leading the league in average after 3 for 5 yesterday including a grand slam homerun.

[jon7jmets]

Escobar goes 4-for-4 in Javs' win
Braves prospect leads AFL with .444 average

[Martin Dihigo]

Kendry Morales is off to a hot start in the Dominican -
5 HRs in 11 games . . .

http://www.lidom.com/Noticia03.htm

(Jim, in Spanish, summarizes Kendry's start)

[jalbright]

Kendry Morales is off to a hot start in the Dominican -
5 HRs in 11 games . . .

http://www.lidom.com/Noticia03.htm

(Jim, in Spanish, summarizes Kendry's start)

Generally, I'm cool with this, but if anyone notices foul language, etc. (one mod once unwarily linked to a Playboy interview with plenty of cursing, for example), the link goes. If I see a pattern of problems, I'll have to see if they come from one party or if it's a general issue, and I'll deal with it accordingly.

Jim Albright

[petercito_73]

Hellow everybody,
I' am a Cuban baseball fan and i´m glad to be here to discuss about our favorite game.
Thanks to Cubano100% for giving me the link.

[Kiefer]

Hi Petercito, welcome to Baseball Fever. Glad to have you here. :waving

[jon7jmets]

PRL started i can't find no boxscores or stats.

[petercito_73]

Thanks Kiefer. Glad to see you too. The other site seems to have some technical problems, so i desided to write here.

Does anybody know something about Maels Rodriguez? I saw his father last week and told me his son is just recovering from a back surgery.
I think Maels, if healthy, could become a top level closer. This man used to top 98 MPH very often and was one of the most dominant pitcher in the Cuban Baseball History.

Pete

[Agente Libre]

Does anybody know something about Maels Rodriguez? I saw his father last week and told me his son is just recovering from a back surgery.
I think Maels, if healthy, could become a top level closer. This man used to top 98 MPH very often and was one of the most dominant pitcher in the Cuban Baseball History.

You saw Maels' father in Cuba or in U.S.?

From what I've heard from MLB sources, Maels is recovering from back surgery. Quite frankly, no one is expecting much from him at this point. It's been well over 3 years since Maels was a dominant pitcher and he's had serious back and shoulder problems. The back injury might be fixed, but shoulder problems are much harder to come back from.

[Kiefer]

Thanks Kiefer. Glad to see you too. The other site seems to have some technical problems, so i desided to write here.

Does anybody know something about Maels Rodriguez? I saw his father last week and told me his son is just recovering from a back surgery.
I think Maels, if healthy, could become a top level closer. This man used to top 98 MPH very often and was one of the most dominant pitcher in the Cuban Baseball History.

Pete

Yeah, it has happened several times. I hope they fix it soon.

I wish Maels Rodriguez could pitch like he used to, but, unfortunately I don't see this happening. :(

[petercito_73]

I Saw his father in Cuba. We live in the same town and he uses to speak a lot about his dear son. Maybe it´s more serius than we expected, and then, all we gotta to do is trust and have a little faith. Just that.
But the most important thing, i guess, is that Maels´return depends not only from his health, but also from his own will and wishes of success.

[cubaxpos]

Welcome to the forum little Peter, que vuelta?
Don't worry about any mistakes in your spelling. Keep on posting and don't pay attention to the spelling that you are doing better thatn you give yourself credit for and everybody understands perfectly what you are writing. Plus, you are giving great insight here.

[Quicksilv3r]

I think we can forget about Maels... he's a goner pretty much...

[Agente Libre]

Baseball America's 2006 Arizona Fall League Top 20 Prospects list came out today:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/features/262815.html

No Cubans made the list.

[Agente Libre]

Baseball America's interview with Amaury Cazana-Marti:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/262743.html

There's one mistake in the story: Cazana-Marti's agent didn't help Orlando Hernandez or Jose Contreras defect; she helped Adrian Hernandez.

[CameronCrazies]

I was visiting to post the Marti interview, but Agente beat me to it...

I thought BA would at least list Yunel Escobar at 20 since he will win the AFL batting average title in the next few days. I don't subscribe so I don't know who they picked over him.

This was created about midway throught the summer: http://www.minorleaguenews.com/baseball/features/articles2006/08/fab50/50.html

Also, don't know I you saw this or not: http://www.minorleagueball.com/story/2006/11/15/172646/64#commenttop

Go back to the main page and scroll down or his comments on Escobar...notice he listed Francisley Bueno too.

[CameronCrazies]

Yunel Escobar clinched the AFL's batting average title with yesterday's game. Let's see if he can carry the momentum in to Spring Training.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061116&content_id=144875&vkey=news_l119&fext=.jsp&sid=l119

[J.P]

So, I guess this settles the argument, anybody still disagrees with the idea that Yunel deserves another full year of professional baseball before disregarding him??

[Agente Libre]

I don't think anyone ever "disregarded" him, but his 22 games in the AFL -- against a bunch of dead-armed Single-A and Double-A pitchers -- doesn't change his prospect status very much.

Keep in mind, even though Escobar won the batting title, he did not even make the Top 20 Prospects list in what was considered one of the weakest AFL's in years. Scouts do not like him, plus he has quickly earned a reputation for being a cocky big-mouth with an attitude problem.

[J.P]

Well, no one ever said (and I'm still not saying so) that he will be the next Miguel Tejada, just that we could wait another full professional year before saying this guy will never make it, like it was said, or insinuated in this forum.

[jon7jmets]

VALDEZ GETS ANOTHER CHANCE AT HIS DREAM

Little Falls, NJ – The New Jersey Jackals announced the New York Mets organization have purchased the contract of LHP Raul Valdez. Valdez returns to affiliated baseball where he pitched for the Chicago Cubs organization in 2004 and 2005.

Valdez was solid for the Jackals in 2006. In 17 games for New Jersey, he accumulated a record of 7-3 with a 2.81 ERA and collected 62 strikeouts in 83 1/3 innings pitched. Valdez was also a Player of the Week selection for the week of July 17-23.

Prior to joining the Jackals, Valdez spent time with the Nashua Pride and the Chicago Cubs’ Triple A affiliate Iowa. With the Pride, Valdez was 2-1 with a 5.09 ERA and collected 17 strikeouts in 23 innings pitched.

“Raul pitched very well for us during the 2006 season. He is very deserving of this chance to play for the Mets organization.” Stated Joe Calfapietra, Jackals field manager. “We wish him the very best of luck.”

[J.P]

This guy dominated the Dominican Winter League two years in a row, yet he hasnt been able to put up decent numbers in the minors, I just dont get it.